1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: What the Russians are selling isn't their own majesty or 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: their sort of triumphant nature. It's just how completely decrepit 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: we are. But now you notice what they're doing. They're 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: inviting Americans, people that they claim are victims of this 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: great moral and societal collapse MAGA types. Obviously, people who 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: don't like the expansion of rights come to Russia because 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: this is like nineteen fifties America. It's not the future 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: they're selling, it's the past. 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she I served in 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: all around the world. 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 3: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 14 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 15 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 2: created conspiracies. 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 3: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 3: were true. 18 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 19 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: news almost every day. 20 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 3: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 21 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 3: could be or whether we're being manipulated. 22 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 2: Welcome to Mission Implausible. So we're going to continue our 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: discussion with Michael Weiss. We've had some really good discussions 24 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: about the history of Russian malign activities and disinformation. He's 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: also talked a little bit of his experience with terrorism 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: in Syria and ISIS. And then for part two, we 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: talked about the specific recent information about Russians paying sort 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: of these right wing social media interviewers or have these shows. 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: In fact, there was an article today in the paper 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: that the US intelligence community has been briefing both the 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: Republican and Democratic parties about foreign influence in the elections. 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: And you know, no surprise, but the Russians consume to 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: be incredibly aggressive, very much trying to promote Donald Trump, 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: whereas the Iranians have been involved in trying to interfere 35 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: in the elections against Donald Trump. And in fact they've 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: stolen some material from the Trump campaign which they've been 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: trying to get people to publish, and so far people 38 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 2: haven't done that. 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: And of course there's it's not just Russia and Iran. 40 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 3: I wisure North Korea. China's involved and I was fascinated 41 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: to it. Turkey are sort of NATO ally is also 42 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: involved both in New York City and of course with 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: Michael Flynn earlier. 44 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 2: Some of that's interference and some of it's just straightforward corruption. 45 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 3: I'm not sure how you extrude one from the other, 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 3: but absolutely, Yeah. 47 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think the New York mayor was taking gifts 48 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: and bribes and money from the Turks. Who does he 49 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: think he is? He think he's a Supreme Court God, 50 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: that's right. 51 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas is like, why weren't the Turks my friends? 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: I got to turn to this guy who collects Hitler 53 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: paraphernalia instead, you know. 54 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: So now let's talk to Michael Weiss. As you recall, 55 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: Michael Weiss is a journalist, a writer who's writing a 56 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: book on Russian intelligence and has written a book on ISIS. 57 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: Spent a lot of time working in Syria and working 58 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: in Ukraine and on Russia issues, and so let's follow 59 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: up with Michael. 60 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: Hey. 61 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: I talked to US law enforcement counterintelligence people about this, 62 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: because I spend a lot of time in Europe, and 63 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: depending on where you are in Europe you find varying 64 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: degrees of vigilance and the kind of no fucks given attitude. 65 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: I mean, the Estonians I know very well, and I 66 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: go to Coppo headquarters and I've talked to their officer 67 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: corps there and they do this really great thing, which 68 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: is every year they put out an annual review. Here 69 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: are all the spies we caught. It used to be 70 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: all Russians, but now there's a few Chinese military intelligence 71 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: agents in there. Oh and here all the people we 72 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: know are working for the Russians who come to Estoni 73 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: and try to whip up pro Nazi sentiments so that 74 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: they can claim that there's a fascist hunter running the 75 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: government in Tallin and Etcat. So they kind of name 76 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: and change, and they can do this because it's a 77 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: small homogeneous society where you know, even the far right 78 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: in Estonia weirdly or a populist party are anti Russian right, 79 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: so they know that nobody's going to accuse them of McCarthyism. 80 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: There's no historical precedent for it in Estonia. But when 81 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: it comes to the United States, obviously the first Amendment 82 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: is sacrasanct. The US government is going around saying so 83 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: and so are Russian agents, even if they're being paid. 84 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: That's not necessarily a crime. The crime here, which is 85 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: rarely enforced, and this is why this is getting interesting, 86 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: is fair. The Federal Agents Registry, the Foreign Agents Registration Act. 87 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: Usually what happens if you don't register under fair When 88 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: you're taking money from a foreign government to lobby for 89 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: its interests, you get a letter from the DOJ saying, hey, 90 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: you better register with us. That's the penalty. People don't 91 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: get indicted usually. And you notice Tempoole, Rubin Chen all 92 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: these guys aren't being indicted themselves. It's the Russians who 93 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: were paying them. So we're going after the foreign actors. 94 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: We're not going after our own people. It doesn't say 95 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: tenet media, it doesn't name the names of Americans. But 96 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: I think this is all to the greater good, and 97 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: just by showing that some of these Maga muppets are 98 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: taking loads of cash to do what they're doing and 99 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: might be doing anyway, suddenly there's a stigma. 100 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: Right. But they're naming, but they're not shaming. Well, it's 101 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 3: a problem, right. 102 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: But now you notice they're coming out and they're saying, 103 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: we're cooperating with the FBI. Hang on a minute, I 104 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: thought you guys all hated the deep state. Now you're 105 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: the deep state, right because you want to stay out 106 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: of prison. So it leads to this self cannibalization, right, 107 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: and when money is involved, immediately you look venal, you 108 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: look mercenary. Wait a minute, I thought you believed you 109 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: really were an anti imperialist. I thought you were a 110 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: pro Trump for the right reason. So wait a minute, 111 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: you're just taking money. Then you're just a whore, aren't you. 112 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: So it does have a degrading effect, I think on 113 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: their self presentation. But I understand the US government is 114 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: terrified of its own shadow when it comes to naming 115 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: and half shaming Americans who are doing this sort of thing, 116 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: because we all believe in freedom of speech. And hey, 117 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: you can be a moron and not even realize you're 118 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: regurgitating a hostile the foreign powers lies, and that's not 119 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: a crime in itself, unless you think stupid. He is 120 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: a crime. 121 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 3: Well, and it's from the top down. I'll just say it. 122 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 3: Trump says, I talked to Vladimir Putin. Every single one, 123 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: unanimously of my intelligence agencies say that the Russians have 124 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 3: tried to manipulate our elections. And he's like, well, I 125 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: believe Vladimir Putin. So starts at the. 126 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: Top in the work that you guys did. If you 127 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: were looking at a foreign country and you saw a 128 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: politician like Trump rise to power in that country and 129 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: say the things that politician was saying. And you were right, 130 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: you were sending memos back to Washington from the station 131 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: wherever it is. This would not be controversial. This would 132 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: be pretty open and shut, pretty black and white. This 133 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: guy is very clearly an agent of influence for a 134 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: foreign power, if not compromised and co opted by the 135 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: intelligence services of that foreign power. But you notice how 136 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: polluted and how radioactive the discourse has become the last 137 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: what almost ten years now, right, the Trump Russia hoax, 138 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: and the Muller Report, and the Senate Subcommittee on Intelligence 139 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: five volumes, all of it has been treated as though 140 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: it were some kind of conspiracy to deny the presidency 141 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: to a man who was rightfully elected. And yet there's 142 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: too much to relitigate people. People are exhausted from the 143 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: very conversation. The debate is almost defunct, but it's gone darker. 144 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 3: It's certainly in recent days. With anyone who says this, 145 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: it's being now implied like donors or political operatives, anything 146 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 3: that I don't like, I'm coming for you. That's an 147 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 3: intimidation factor. Right on top of this, he's no. 148 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: Longer shy or ashamed or in any way. It doesn't 149 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: has no compunction about advertising his authoritarian tendencies and what 150 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: he wants to do on day one, which is lock 151 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: up people who oppose him politically, including you, John. 152 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: And I said, there's gonna be a bloodbath, and I'm 153 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: coming after people who are engaged in unscrupulous that's not 154 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: a legal term. That's basically what is unscrupulous, not illegal activity, 155 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: just antivity. 156 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: I don't like we have this popular imaginative conception that 157 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: fascism or any kind of autocratic system happens very quickly. 158 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: Liberal democracies just collapse and then you have the rise 159 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: of the strong man who becomes the dictator, who may 160 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: or may not become a full out to tolitarian. But 161 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. It happens very slowly. It's 162 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: a process of deterioration at all levels, the cultural level, 163 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: and the political level, and the institutional level. And like 164 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: I said, this has been almost a decade where we're 165 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: so worn down, we've become inured to things like there's 166 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: going to be a bloodbath, or I'm going to throw 167 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: my enemies in prison. Oh that's just Trump being Trump. 168 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, No, this man stands a fifty or 169 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: maybe slightly less than fifty percent chance of being the 170 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: leader of the not so free world, right. 171 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: Very Putinism. Right, So it's gangster mentality, aangswer is what 172 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: they do is they make you complicit. So right now, 173 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: for the Trump people, it's like you have to say 174 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: the things like Tim Poole and those guys are saying. 175 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: You have to say the election was stolen, and you 176 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: have to say things you know not to be true. 177 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: To prove your loyalty, you have to be a made man. 178 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: You have to have killed somebody. 179 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: Right. 180 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: The white supremacist Nick Fuentes, who seems to be one 181 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: of the rare, severe ideologue true believers of trump Ism, 182 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: and he went on a rant the other day where 183 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: he feels betrayed because Trump, I guess in passing referred 184 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: to his loss of the twenty twenty election by a whisker. 185 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: He said, what do you mean it's a loss. We 186 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: all went to the barricades for you, man, because this 187 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: was a stolen thing. This was stop the steal. That's 188 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: why we lined up. And now you're saying, oh, dirty 189 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: crook made you look I actually lost. When I talk 190 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: about the self cannibalization. The real over zealous cadres of 191 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: the movement begin to feel, wait a minute, where we 192 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: sold a bill of goods here? Or is he going 193 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: to lose a wait a minute, he's going to lose 194 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: to a black woman. This is just pathetic. This isn't 195 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: This isn't the white savior we all signed up for. 196 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: And that's the most important thing. And I think that 197 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: the Harris campaign has figured this out in a way 198 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: certainly that Clinton could not. But I think what they're 199 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: doing effectively is they're trolling him, and they're trolling him 200 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: in a way that they know what gets under his skin. Right, 201 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: the worst thing for Donald Trump is to be branded 202 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: a loser, and to be an actual loser, and to 203 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: be seen as uninteresting, unfunny, tiresome, his race baiting, his misogyny, 204 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: that's all boring. The fact is you're just this morbidly 205 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: obese scepterugenarian. You lost the last time, You're going to 206 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: lose this time, and even your followers think you're an asshole. 207 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: That's how you get him. You can't, unfortunately, you can't 208 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: argue the merits of political economy and the fact that 209 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: this guy is an authoritarian. It doesn't work, people don't. 210 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,119 Speaker 1: They tune off immediately. 211 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: Let's take a break, we'll be right back, and we're back. So, Michael, 212 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: you've been doing a lot of other recent reporting, and 213 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 2: for example, just CIA Director Burns held a recent public 214 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: event with the British SIS chief Richard Moore which they 215 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: discussed that the Kremlin is using criminals to engage in 216 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: sabotage abroad and talk about a lot of the things 217 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: that we've seen the Russians up to in Europe and 218 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: of course now here in the United States. Can you 219 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 2: discuss what you've been learning and what you've been looking 220 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: into about Russian malign activity in Europe? 221 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: In a way, it's a return to first principles that 222 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: GRU Soviet military intelligence from its inception, I mean in 223 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: the twenties. One of the things that they became past 224 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: masters at was partisan warfare, which they define rather distinctly 225 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: as diversionary sabotage operations literally terrorism, right going behind enemy lines, 226 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: smuggling themselves into Western countries, recruiting assets, stashing weapons caches everywhere, 227 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: and then in some cases blowing things up like railways 228 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: and whatever. And the GRU is very much up to 229 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: its old Bagatrix. But the difference now is because a 230 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: lot of the guys, the actual operatives employed by the GRU, 231 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: particularly in Unit two nine one five, which is their 232 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: special task unit responsible for poisoning Serge and Julius Gripaul, 233 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: blowing up ammunition depots in Bulgaria and the Czech Republic. Now, 234 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're recruiting riff raff in the 235 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: West through social media and offering them in some cases 236 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: a couple hundred euro, maybe a few thousand euro in 237 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency to do things that vary between daub some graffiti, 238 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: anti NATO graffiti or pay you were hacked on the 239 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: walls of the Estonian Cybersecurity Excellent Center in Talin to 240 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: go to Ukraine and blow up a military facility, or 241 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: stay in Europe and go to Germany and blow up 242 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: a weapons manufacturing plant or something that's working to aid 243 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: security assistance to Ukraine. And so I worked with my 244 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: colleagues and we did this deep dive investigation into the 245 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: Latvian network that the GRU has recruited, and we relied 246 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: on court documents in both Estonia and in Latvia. They're 247 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: not Russian, they're all ethnic Latvians, right, But they're young, 248 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: some of them have criminal backgrounds, and they were just 249 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: recruited by these anonymous handlers on telegram, who themselves were 250 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: in many cases intermediaries for actual GRU officers sitting in 251 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: Moscow creating this network. So you know, you two nine, one, 252 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: five five guys are rolled up. Their biometrics are in 253 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: every customs database and Interpol. They can't travel to Europe, 254 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: so instead they're relying on amateurs and locals. And the 255 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: great danger here is it's one thing if you have 256 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: a trained saboteur who knows how to construct a detonator 257 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: and an explosive device, and that's bad enough because he's 258 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: going to blow something up and he's going to kill people. 259 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: When you're relying on nimcompoops who've never done it before, 260 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: the potential for collateral damage is that much higher. 261 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: Let me ask you a question on sort of motivation. So, 262 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 3: having dealt a lot John and I have with Soviets, 263 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 3: no one believed it, even they did. But they had 264 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: a positive message, right, Communism is going to bring a 265 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 3: better world to the toiling masses and the peasants and workers. 266 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 3: Now the message seems to be you guys suck worse 267 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 3: than we do as opposed to selling something positive. Now 268 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: they're selling is what did Trump say? You know, we're 269 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 3: not so great, right? I mean, that was his point. 270 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: It was like, we're not so great either, And what 271 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: the Russian scene to be pushing and that Americans are 272 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: accepting and pushing as well, is we suck. We're not 273 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: so great when things like crime is down, the United 274 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 3: States is actually doing very well compared places in Europe 275 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 3: and other parts of the world, and yet we're there's 276 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: a strong push to convince us that we are weak, 277 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: that we are decreptitt the that we are poor, and 278 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: increasingly people seem to be buying it. I don't know, 279 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 3: is that the message that they're pushing now, that they're 280 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: trying to convince us that not that they're great, but 281 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: that we're terrible. 282 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: There was always the utopian salesmanship. Moscow is the third realm. 283 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: The Soviet Union was the future. Come here and have 284 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: it the first workers state, and this is the future 285 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: of man Cutt. Then enough people went, and the ones 286 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: that didn't end up staying involuntarily came back and said, 287 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: wait a minute, it's not quite working out the way 288 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: we were told, and then they started to play around 289 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: with moral equivalency. The old saw used to be well, 290 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: you have the Gulag, and they would say, yes, but 291 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: you hang black people, and I would have agreed with 292 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: you wholeheartedly up until recently, where this notion that what 293 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: the Russians are selling isn't their own majesty or their 294 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: sort of triumphant nature. It's just how completely decrepit we are. Right, 295 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: But now you notice what they're doing. They're inviting Americans, 296 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: people that they claim are victims of this great moral 297 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: and societal collapse, Maga types. Obviously, people who don't like 298 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: the expansion of rice to gates it come to Russia 299 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: because this is like nineteen fifties America. It's not the 300 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: future they're selling, it's the past, which is very much 301 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: in keeping with the fascistic nature of Putinism. Russia is safe, 302 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: it's secure, you can run your friend here. It's white, 303 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: you have to worry about story straight and people are 304 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: they're buying. There are people who are actually emigrating and living. 305 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: You know, there's this whole movement to foot If if 306 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: you feel an alien in your own country and society, 307 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: come to Russia. I will happily pay the airfare economy 308 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: for some of the people that I think would benefit 309 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: from this. 310 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: There's a Russian intelligence story that we've forgotten now, and I, 311 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: if I understand correctly, you've done some reporting on it. 312 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: There was a story that Russian intelligence services were working 313 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: with the Afghans and the Taliban to put bounties on 314 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: the heads of American soldiers to get paid for killing 315 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: American soldiers. 316 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: The next big investigation that Christo Grosev, my colleague, and 317 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: Ramanda wa Hootev and I are doing at the Insider 318 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: is about the GRU specifically Unit two nine one five 319 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: five year old friends recruiting a network of Afghan intermediaries 320 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: with the Taliban, one of whom is if you read 321 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: the Charlie Savage series in the New York Times, on 322 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: this Taliban bounties allegation, Charlie came out I think it 323 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: was twenty eighteen maybe nineteen, and said the US intelligence community. Now, 324 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: there was a debate, as there always is in the IC, 325 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: but I know that the CIA, not Russia House, but 326 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: the station in Kabble had intelligence, including bank transactions receipts, 327 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: suggesting that two nine one five five had recruited Afghans 328 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: to pay the money to give to the Taliban to 329 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: kill US and UK soldiers, and this was contested. I 330 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: think the NSA didn't quite like the receipts that CIA 331 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: had and there was a dispute. It was low confidence 332 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: by the NSA, medium confidence by CIA. But anyway, one 333 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: of the guys we have mapped as being not just 334 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: recruited by two nine one five five, but he's got 335 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: a Russian passport, a Russian name, he's living in Russia 336 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: now is the courier mentioned in one of Charlie's stories. 337 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean they've been running this program for 338 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: years and in the work that we're doing. One of 339 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: the interesting elements of this is that throughout even post 340 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: Soviet occupation, which as you all know, is pretty brutal, 341 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: there was a constituency of Afghans who preferred working with 342 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: the Russians then with the Americans, right, And I don't 343 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: have to tell anyone here why the Russians would be 344 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: incentivized to do this, And with us, it's always about documentation. 345 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: Can we prove this with travel patterns, passport numbers? Yes, 346 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: we can. We have it. So that's going to be 347 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: a fun one coming out. Yeah, I mean two nine 348 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: one five five. This is this is the Rosetta stone 349 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: for understanding, in a way just the heart of what 350 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: Russia has become. But certainly if you want to get 351 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: a grasp on Russian malign activity, going back now more 352 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: than a decade from twenty eleven, that's before the first 353 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine and the seizure of Crimea and don Bas. 354 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: From twenty eleven on to now two nine one five 355 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: has been behind every major act of Russian malevolence that 356 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: I think has made international headlines. And we're only piecing 357 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: this together in hindsight, right, because the evidence has been 358 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: floating around, but it's scattershot. 359 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 3: So the show mostly deals with conspiracy theories and we 360 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 3: deconstruct them. Today we're talking about conspiracies, and these are 361 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 3: real We're not conspiracy theorists. We're talking about real conspiracies. 362 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: But the conspiracists. We're looking to recruit conspiracy theorists. 363 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 3: And the comments on the show will be that we're 364 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 3: actually being conspiracy theorists by discussing Russian conspiracies. 365 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: When somebody says the Trump Russia hoax, I said, what 366 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: do you mean? People were saying on TV that the 367 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: Russians installed Donald Trump in the White House. Well, okay, 368 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: that that might be a bridge too far. But what 369 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: do you mean, pots, I mean, did you read the 370 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: Moller report? Did you read the indictments that preceded the 371 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: Molar report? Did you read the Senate sub Committee Intelligence? 372 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: And that's a Republican led committee. Oh, you know, Muller, 373 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: that's all. That's all bullshit too. I said, Wait a minute, 374 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: but you said you said that. Muller said there's no conspiracy. 375 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: They use the word collusion, which is not a legal 376 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: term of art, much less a legal concept. But Muller 377 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: goes to some length to say there's no such thing 378 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: as collusion, and then he says, but the evidence we 379 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: don't have enough on conspiracy. Fine, but what about the 380 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: indictments of the gru cyber operators who hacked into the 381 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: DNC and the DCCC And John Podesta's Oh, that's all 382 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: that's not proven. You're saying that the federal government and 383 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice invented this allegation and then came 384 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: up with names for I think it was over a 385 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: dozen gru officers their first name, their patronymic, their surname, 386 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: their rank. All of that stuff is just manufactured. Yah. Yeah, 387 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: so you're a crank. You don't understand how government works. 388 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: You don't understand how law enforcement or counterintelligence works. And 389 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: by the way, that information didn't come from the United States. 390 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: That came from our friends the Dutch, who were literally 391 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: hacking into the gru Computer Network and watching these guys 392 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: using their own computer cameras as they were hacking in 393 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: to the DNC. That's also in my book. By the way, 394 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, the Netherlands is the sixth iigh in five. 395 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 2: It is like it is, they're great, but conspiracy theorists themselves. 396 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: It's a self healing balloon. 397 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: Right. 398 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 2: You cannot say anything because they will just say, oh, 399 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: that's a cover up, that's a fake. 400 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: And this is something also interesting in the twenty first century, 401 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: the Hofstadter essay the paranoid style in American politics, the 402 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: seminole sociological investigation into how so many Americans believe just nonsense, 403 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: from Freemasonry's control of the world to all the rest 404 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: of anti Semitism. Obviously, what we have now seeing is 405 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: the paranoid style in American politics is to say there 406 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: is nothing to be paranoid about because all of these 407 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: allegations foreign actors, foreign intelligence services up to no good, 408 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: trying to undermine our democracy, trying to recruit us, trying 409 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: to pollute our economy with dirty money. All of that's 410 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: just fantasy. 411 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 2: But the deep state's real. The deepest my own corrupt, 412 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: but everybody else is. 413 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: And even people I have to say, who I think 414 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: should know better can get intoxicated by the sort of 415 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: ludlamesque aspects of intelligence that may not be real, but 416 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: they want to be real because oh, you know, yeah, 417 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: we can do that. This idea that the CIA was 418 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: going to get into a shootout with the FSB in 419 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: London over Julian fucking Massange, Like, I don't have to 420 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: be on the seventh floor to know that shit ain't 421 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: gonna happen, And yet it's reported and it's treated seriously. 422 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it was introduced into court in the UK 423 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: as part of his extradition, and of course all the 424 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: nut jobs have come and come out and said, oh, 425 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: you see, the CIA is trying to kill Julian Massage. 426 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: If there were a deep state, we wouldn't be talking 427 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: about doo j indictments of Russian operators who recruited people 428 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: from the Maga podcast. The Maga podcasting people would be 429 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: in prison already, there would be no this would all 430 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: be sewed up. 431 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: Let's take a break, we'll be right back, and boom, 432 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: we're back. 433 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: We live in a country where the wife of a 434 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: Supreme Court justice writes to the White House Chief of 435 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 3: Staff that she understands that Hillary Clinton is in a 436 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 3: barge off of Guantanamo Bay about to meet a military 437 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 3: tribunal for stealing the election, and the White House chief 438 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 3: of Staff turns it over to DOJ like look into this. 439 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton's not at a like why would she be 440 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 3: on it? Even if she was, why would she be 441 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 3: on a barge off of Guantanamo? But none of this 442 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 3: makes sense. But it's about feelings to a certain extent, 443 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 3: they know what's true for them, and they're desperately looking 444 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: for facts to backfill. 445 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: If you cater to emotion, which all populism does, sure, 446 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: you don't need reason, you don't need empiricism, you don't 447 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: need documentation because it feels like it's true. And the 448 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: other thing is if the person who's telling me something 449 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: has ever made a mistake before, I don't trust that 450 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: person and also that person is acting on bad faith, 451 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: especially if that person doesn't share my exact politics. 452 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 3: Let me share with you a story from my esteem past. 453 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: So I wasn't the most successful guy dating in college, 454 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 3: but I asked this girl out in college and she 455 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 3: was from El Salvador, so her perfect English, she spoke Spanish, 456 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 3: and at the time I thought it would be a 457 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 3: good move to take her to this film festival where 458 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 3: they showed the Triumph of will Right, and they had 459 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,479 Speaker 3: but they had English subtitles, but I had eight off 460 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 3: Hitler's speeches. And so she sits to this thing and 461 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 3: she watches it, and as relieving she says, I have 462 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: no idea. I stopped reading the subtitles. I had no 463 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: idea what this guy was saying. Adolf Hitler. Right, she goes, 464 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 3: but wow, I was really moved by it, like she 465 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: took it to heart, just the emotion of it. I 466 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 3: never got another date, by the way, But what I 467 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 3: did come away away. 468 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: For the best. Yeah, I'm sorry for the best. 469 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 3: But what I did come away with is the appeal 470 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 3: of making a speech like that Hitler front of the thousands, 471 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 3: with Geey Riefenstahl, making this film someone who does it 472 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 3: really like an American have a background to fascism, doesn't 473 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: really understand exactly who Adolf Hitler was growing up in 474 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 3: El Salvador. Even she was swept away with the emotion 475 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 3: just watching this film, and I think there's something to 476 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: that with a meg as well. 477 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: Everyone from George Orwell to Leon Trotsky noted that Hitler 478 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: was charismatic. He was a dynamic, captivating speaker, and that 479 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: was what made him so dangerous. It's funny, like I 480 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of optimistic no appraisals for Yeah, 481 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: I was hoping twenty twenty would be the last decisive 482 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: election where the fate of the world hangs in the balance, 483 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: and now we're doing it all over again. And that 484 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: part is what scares me the most. It's the recurrence 485 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: of this because again, people become a nerd, they become exhausted, 486 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 1: they tune out, they're not as they don't believe in 487 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: the danger. They think that is its self a sort 488 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: of piece of rhetoric and political theater. I wrote a 489 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: paper in twenty fourteen with Peter Palmer Ansman, who's a 490 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: great sort of analyst and scholar of contemporary Russia. And 491 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: in the introduction it was called the Menace of Unreality. 492 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: It was all about disinformation and propaganda. And I'm like, honestly, 493 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: I think we were KOI I think we were almost 494 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: quaintly naive in what because we were focusing on what 495 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: the Russians were doing in Ukraine in twenty fourteen, and 496 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: that was very much the laboratory or the Petri dish 497 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: for what became this global phenomenon in years since. But 498 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: one of the things I remember writing in the introduction 499 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: to that is, given the state of the world and 500 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: the way that we consume information, people don't sit and 501 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: read books about Soviet intelligence. They know Putin is a 502 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: bad guy, but there's a lot of bad guys in 503 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: the world. And again we come back to this sort 504 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: of weak tea moral equivalence, and I said, in order 505 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: to really fight this stuff, you're going to have to 506 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: have the moral principle of an Orwell with the sort 507 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: of pr marketing savvy of Don Draper. You're going to 508 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: need to be to sell it. And this is a 509 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: kind of slightly dangerous thing to say, because what I'm 510 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: talking about is in order to defeat malign propaganda, you 511 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: need good propaganda. Maybe we do need a little more conspiracy, 512 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: but neevil and conspiracy to counteract in the line. 513 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was wanting to ask you one question. 514 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 2: Is there anything you want to say about the war 515 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: in Ukraine where you see it right now? 516 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, look, the situation in dom Bass is 517 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: pretty bad. I'm not gonna lie, and it's hard to 518 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: get a handle on just how bad it is. One 519 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: of the tendencies I've noticed from the Ukrainians from day 520 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: one is they tend to dramatize for the sake of 521 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: ginning up more aid and security assistants. I don't mean 522 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: that as a slight It's a very clever thing to do. 523 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: Po Krosk. The Russians were coming very quickly. Whether or 524 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: not they're being held back now I don't know, and 525 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: not frankly, I don't trust anybody who claims to know, 526 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: because a lot of murkiness in that part of But 527 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: one thing I will say that kind of annoys me. 528 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: We have not yet appreciated the fact that, in the 529 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: space of less than a month mounted in operation that, 530 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: according to the latest reporting, even the American ICEE wasn't 531 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: completely read into or aware of to invade sovereign Russia 532 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: cursed no less, which, if you know your World War 533 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: two issues, is a very interesting place to invade. They 534 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: currently occupy a space of territory in sovereign Russia the 535 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: size of Los Angeles. And they did this. They took 536 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: more terrain in Russia than Russia has managed to take 537 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: in the space of a year, and they did in 538 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: about three weeks. We're trying to find the downside to this, 539 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: the strategic liability. All the analysts I'm reading, Oh, this 540 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: is not going well, this is a distraction, this is folly, 541 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: it's taking resources that are needed in the East, and 542 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. I'm sorry, but like they caught the 543 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: Russians sleeping. Literally, the FSB Border Guard ran away or surrendered. 544 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: The conscripts that were there who were told you're going 545 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: to be able to sit out the war and safety 546 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: and security in Russia are now POWs to be traded 547 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: for Ukrainian POWs. Yet again, they shocked the world. They 548 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: deliver a strategic hammer blow to Russia. They make Putin 549 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: look weak. Ukraine, in the space of two and a 550 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: half years, has managed to dismantle entire edifices of mythology 551 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: and propaganda that we have assimilated in the West about 552 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: how mighty and sophisticated and clever and dangerous the Russians are. 553 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying we don't have to worry about 554 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: nuclear escalation or the threat that Putin might go mad 555 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: and decide. All these things are very real, and I'm 556 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: not trying to diminish them or belittle them. But you 557 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: can punch the Russians in the nose, you can break 558 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: their nose, you can bloody their nose. And whereas an 559 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: hour before they threaten World War three, now they kind 560 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: of run simpering away and get away with it. 561 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: The Russian military is the second best military in Russia. 562 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: All of the jokes are real, right, and they're real 563 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: because the Ukrainians made them real against all expectation and 564 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: all council from US and Kendratuk, who was the head 565 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: of GORD at the time, he had these enormous ambitions 566 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: and was told at every turn by the Obama administration 567 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: Susan Rice, really, you can't do it, because if you 568 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: do it, it's going to lead to And not only 569 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: are they doing that now, they're hitting the Arctic Circle 570 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: with drones that they're manufacturing domestically killing Russians in Africa, 571 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: killing Russians in Africa. I know everyone's hired and they're distracted, 572 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: and they're looking to Middle East now and the crisis 573 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: there and the election, but Ukraine is still the heart 574 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: of the matter. People don't realize it, and Europeans, to 575 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: their credit, I think now really get it. I mean, 576 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: the real you know, weak link is as ever, the 577 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: journals and chelt Chelch doesn't deserve to be a chances 578 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. But this is the wrong 579 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: guy at the wrong time, in the wrong country, if 580 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: ever there were. 581 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 3: Michael, We're not in the predictions business, but if you 582 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 3: could just maybe just talk just for a second on 583 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: what happens in Ukraine if Trump wins. 584 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: Let me tell you the scariest thing I heard, And 585 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: it's scary because the rationalization is so outsize. It's like 586 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: the Jeff Goldbloom line in the What's That movie? Jeff, 587 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: rationalization are more important than sex. Think about it. When's 588 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: the last time you had a rationalization? A died in 589 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: the wole Democratic Policymaker. I think this was slightly before J. D. 590 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: Vance was selected. And still while Biden was in it. 591 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: I had a call with him and I check in 592 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: with him constantly, and he said it might not be 593 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: so bad. Trump is, he's making noises like he might 594 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: go in a more Reaganite direction and foreign policy. And 595 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh God, if you're at this point of acceptance, resignation, acceptance, 596 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: that's how dangerous the situation is, you know. And the 597 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: Ukrainians they are also, I think, trying to convince themselves 598 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: we can work with this, it won't be so bad. 599 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: And the line I keep hearing is Trump will try 600 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: to do a deal and then he'll get rat fucked 601 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: by Putin and he'll get so angry that he'll give 602 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: Tomahawk missiles to the Ukrainus. I'm like, cool, story, bro, 603 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: But where's the evidence to back up anything like this? Oh, 604 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: he didn't he give Javelin anti Tyk missiles. He didn't 605 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: give them. His administration gave them. And all those are 606 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: the people who he has decided are going to be 607 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: purged from. 608 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: When he found out, he was saying, just guess what. 609 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: They've all come out on record and said what a 610 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: mad cap and a dangerous war on this guy is 611 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: didn't understand his own policy. Cash Patel is going to 612 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: bring peace to Ukraine and restore nineteen ninety one borders. 613 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: Are you insane? So it's really bad. There's a lot 614 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: about Kamala Harris I either don't know or I don't 615 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: agree with. But this is not the time. We don't 616 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: have the luxury of nitpicking and seeking that which is 617 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: perfect in an imperfect state of affair. I mean to me, 618 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: it's a no brainer. And if you support Ukraine, yeah, 619 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: there's going to be there's already stuff happening behind the 620 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: scenes in the Biden administration floating these thought bubbles or 621 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: maybe it's time to cut a deal or do peace, 622 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: or using the prospect of Trump's return as pressure on 623 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians. Frankly speaking, I think one of the reasons 624 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: why they decided to invade Kirsk was to put paid 625 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: to this because now you see poop. Now, Yeah, what 626 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: are you going to do now? Facts on the ground, 627 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: I think they're called right exactly. Yeah. Look, I'm not 628 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: a Democratic Party Opperachick. I never was. I used to 629 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 1: be a Republican. I ran for New York State Assembly 630 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: as a Republican, believe it or not. So conservative instincts 631 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: on a lot of things, but this is too important 632 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: to mess around with, you know. 633 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 3: Just ask Dick Cheney. 634 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, we're keeping you for too long. 635 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: You got like real recording to do it. But thank 636 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: you for coming on again. 637 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:16,959 Speaker 1: Yeah you got it. 638 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for bearing with us. We'll be back 639 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: again next week with another episode of Mission Implausible. 640 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 641 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 4: and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. 642 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 4: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for 643 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 4: iHeart Podcasts.