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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Matt Gates and Elise Stefanik are

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Speaker 1: introducing legislation stating that Donald Trump did not engage in insurrection.

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Speaker 1: This season of stupid American government dies is even more

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Speaker 1: depressing than the last.

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Speaker 2: We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Mike Izikoff and Daniel Kledeman join us to talk about

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Speaker 1: their new book, Find Me the Votes, A hard charging

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Speaker 1: Georgia Prosecutor, a rogue President, and.

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Speaker 2: The plot to steal an American election.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Heated editor Emily Atkin about the

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Speaker 1: misinformation surrounding Biden's latest move to protect the environment and

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Speaker 1: slow climate change. But first we have the bulwarks Charlie Sykes.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Charlie.

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Speaker 3: Sykes, who had nothing's going on.

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Speaker 1: My favorite thing about this border bill insanity is that

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Speaker 1: there's this bill, It's in the Senate. Republicans of the

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Speaker 1: House don't want the Senate to vote on it even

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Speaker 1: and instead they have a standalone Israel package which pro Israel.

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Speaker 1: People don't want them to take.

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Speaker 2: A vote on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I mean this is about as screwed up

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Speaker 3: as you can get. But also there's a certain amount

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Speaker 3: of clarity, isn't there, you know? I mean you Republican

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Speaker 3: Zoo have been running around saying that the border was

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Speaker 3: an existential crisis. Your children were dying, they were handing

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Speaker 3: out fentanyl like candy, and perhaps we had to do

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Speaker 3: something about it right now. We could not pass that

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Speaker 3: Ukraine bill right because the American border situation was so urgent.

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Speaker 3: And so basically we wake up and they get everything

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Speaker 3: they want with the border bill and they go, yeah, no,

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Speaker 3: just kidding, really not serious about it. We would so

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Speaker 3: much rather have it as an issue than as is.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, this is this the difference between the

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Speaker 3: you know, performative bullshit that has now substituted for actual governance.

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Speaker 3: I mean, people used to think that if there was

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Speaker 3: a problem that we would have, you know, Congress would

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Speaker 3: deal with it, and if there was a possibility that

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Speaker 3: you could come up with a bipartisan compromise to change

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Speaker 3: the law that gave you eighty eighty five percent of

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Speaker 3: what you wanted, you'd take it. But those are the

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Speaker 3: before times.

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Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, pro is a group's want Speaker Johnson to

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Speaker 1: pull the bill, but the leadership has not been receptive

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Speaker 1: to that. I mean, it is it's performative bullshit. That's

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Speaker 1: a really good point. Talk to me about the action

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Speaker 1: in the Senate, because that is Langford is not some

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Speaker 1: centrist libtard cock.

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Speaker 2: I had a Rick Wolson moment there.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, No, you're right, you could have gone on even longer. There. No.

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Speaker 3: And I'm fascinated by this because, you know, and then

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Speaker 3: Langford has become the go to guy saying to his

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Speaker 3: fellow conservatives, guys, this is a good bill. You know,

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Speaker 3: get off Facebook. You're being lied to a out to

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Speaker 3: this bill. And so when you know Langford says this

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Speaker 3: is a good bill, it's a very different thing than

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Speaker 3: somebody on you know you or me on MSNBC saying it,

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Speaker 3: or you know, a democrat in the Senate. He's saying, look,

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Speaker 3: we get almost everything that we want in this bill.

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Speaker 3: And you can just sense his frustration as he's looking

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Speaker 3: around him. And of course, because he's telling the truth

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Speaker 3: about this bill, he has now become Donald Trump's number

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Speaker 3: one enemy. I mean, if you noticed that, this is

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Speaker 3: like it's become kind of an old pattern now by

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Speaker 3: now a familiar pattern. You have Donald Trump running the

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Speaker 3: United States Senate. I can't believe I'm about to say

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Speaker 3: this running the United States Senate from the Dan Bongino Show,

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Speaker 3: you know, because of course this is the future we deserve.

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Speaker 3: So he goes on Dan Bongino Show and says, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I never endorsed that guy. He lied he did, But

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Speaker 3: you know this is going to cost him his job

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Speaker 3: because he actually tried to solve a problem that Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump has been whining about four years and was never

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Speaker 3: able to actually solve himself.

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Speaker 1: And the genesis of this was Republican said we will

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Speaker 1: not fund Ukraine the borders of Ukraine until you solve

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Speaker 1: our border.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is a great talking point, right, Except what

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Speaker 3: they weren't counting on was the Biden administration saying, okay,

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Speaker 3: let's do it.

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Speaker 4: We want the.

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Speaker 3: Ukraine aid and we're willing to give you a lot

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Speaker 3: of what you want. You say that you don't want

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Speaker 3: catch and release, fine, you want more border agents, Fine,

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Speaker 3: let's do all these things. You want more border fence

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Speaker 3: will give you that. You know, it's interesting you get

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Speaker 3: a sense of what a big win this was for

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Speaker 3: conservatives if they were willing to take it, which of

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Speaker 3: course they're not by the fact that Border Patrol Union,

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Speaker 3: which is about as trumpy a union as exists, has

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Speaker 3: endorsed this bill said yeah, this is pretty good, please

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Speaker 3: pass it now. By the way, who was it They

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Speaker 3: have to look this up much. I think it was

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Speaker 3: classic quote from I think was Joni Ernst of Iowa

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Speaker 3: who said, you know, we should have given Senator Langford

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Speaker 3: and the other negotiators the benefit of the doubt that

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Speaker 3: they would come up with something good. Unfortunately, all this

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Speaker 3: stuff got out there on social media. But it's out there,

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Speaker 3: and now it's affective public opinion, and we have to

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Speaker 3: take that into consideration, which is like, do you listen

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Speaker 3: to yourself.

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Speaker 2: It didn't come out there.

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Speaker 1: It was an organized campaign by Donald Trump and his people, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Don Junior is not acting on his own

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Speaker 1: knowledge of the nineteen page bill.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's a safe bet. I think that's

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Speaker 3: actually a safe bet.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: And again, what it comes down to is that it

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Speaker 3: has nothing to do with the policy. It has nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with actually addressing it. It is just simply

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Speaker 3: this moment where compromise is bad. Anything that might make

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden look good is bad. Anything that helps Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump demagogue this issue more is good. It's just the

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Speaker 3: cynicism is so naked, and I suppose we shouldn't be

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Speaker 3: surprised about it, but it's like, guys, this is your

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Speaker 3: own freaking bill. This was the one that you said

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Speaker 3: posed a real, existential, imminent threat to American security, and

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Speaker 3: now you're going, yeah, not really go on it.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting to me, Like, the question is, is

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration playing three dimensional chess? Did they plan

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Speaker 1: this out knowing that it could never pass?

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Speaker 2: Or do you think right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, because had it passed, which it looks like

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Speaker 1: it absolutely will not, it would have really infuriated a

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Speaker 1: lot of progressives. I mean, Representative Jayapaul already said that

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Speaker 1: she had a lot of problems with the bell. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you think this was sort of Biden world playing three

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Speaker 1: dimensional chess or now?

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Speaker 3: It's a really interesting question, though, isn't it. That is

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Speaker 3: a very interesting question because the way it's played out,

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Speaker 3: you know, had they set out to do it, it

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Speaker 3: would be a pretty effective play because now they can

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Speaker 3: spend the rest of the year saying, look at which

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Speaker 3: we had in hand, and this do nothing Congress. And

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Speaker 3: I keep coming back to my favorite campaign, of course,

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Speaker 3: nineteen forty eight. You know, Harry Truman running, he needs

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Speaker 3: to do nothing Congress. He's got the perfect talking point. However,

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Speaker 3: I don't think they were playing. You know, sometimes this

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Speaker 3: stuff happens. Joe Biden's DNA is to negotiate deals. That's

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Speaker 3: his strength and his weakness. He wants to put together,

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Speaker 3: cobble together this bipartisan deal. And I think that as

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Speaker 3: late as last week there was reason to think that maybe,

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Speaker 3: just possibly this time, there might be a deal and

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Speaker 3: that they might possibly have the backbone to pass it.

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Speaker 3: And I think that they played that string out as

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Speaker 3: long as they possibly could. Now we're left with the

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Speaker 3: everybody's got their talking point.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, because the House is going to

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Speaker 1: impeach Alejandro Mayorchis again. I want to quote Jonathan Turley, Right,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Turtley, it says that you can't technically impeach people.

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Speaker 1: That impeachment is supposed to be about high crimes and

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Speaker 1: misdemeanors and not people not doing what you want them to.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But this Republican Congress does not see a problem with that.

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Speaker 1: They don't have the votes yet, but they think that

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Speaker 1: all have the vote to impeach the secretary after rejecting

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Speaker 1: voting on the bill.

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Speaker 3: Well, see, I think this is another one of those

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Speaker 3: just you know, just freeze frame this moment. What do

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Speaker 3: the Republicans want? Do they want to solve the problem

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Speaker 3: or they want to have a bogus sham show trial,

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Speaker 3: Chrick question, because you know exactly what they want now.

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Speaker 3: They're not going to get the bogus sham show trial anyway,

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Speaker 3: because it's not going to take place in the Senate.

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Speaker 3: They're basically engaging in sort of this form of you know,

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Speaker 3: political base masturbation, and everybody feels good about themselves. But again,

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Speaker 3: they're doing it booke ended with the fact that they

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Speaker 3: had an opportunity to actually make substantive changes in the

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Speaker 3: law and refuse to do it. So it's like, again here,

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Speaker 3: on the one hand, is your performative politics versus the

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Speaker 3: actual business of governing. And this is not breaking news, Molly,

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Speaker 3: because you know, the party has been moving away from

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Speaker 3: serious governing for a long time now. But this is

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Speaker 3: one of those little freeze frame moments of like what

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Speaker 3: was going on twenty twenty four when they had a

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Speaker 3: chance to actually do something about a crisis that at

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Speaker 3: least one of the major political parties said was just

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Speaker 3: the biggest thing happening in the Northern hemisphere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so hypocritical, but I do think there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of Trump supporters who believe this sort of

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Speaker 1: earth to theories of trump Ism.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, I mean, how does it work. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is part of the cynicism. I mean, the cynicism

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Speaker 3: is that, you know, the worst things are, the more

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Speaker 3: likely voters are to blame Joe Biden. So let's keep

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Speaker 3: things as bad as they are if we can, in fact,

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Speaker 3: pour more kerosene on the fire that we hope that

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Speaker 3: the voters will blame the person in the White House.

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Speaker 3: That's deeply cynical. It's deeply reckless and irresponsible, but it's

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Speaker 3: not necessarily wrong. Generally, you try to put more of

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Speaker 3: a fig leaf on it than what you're seeing right

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Speaker 3: now in Washington.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Another bit of wild news is that the DC Circuit

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Speaker 1: has decided, thank you, is that Trump is not a king.

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Speaker 1: But Trump is hoping that the Supreme Court will decide

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Speaker 1: that he is.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I wish he either had popcorn or I'd want a

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Speaker 3: warm Bath just to talk about this, because this is

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Speaker 3: an amazing do yourself a favor. I'm looking at all

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Speaker 3: the listeners. Go download and print out. You can get

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Speaker 3: more ink and paper from your printer. This whole opinion

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Speaker 3: by the unanimous panel of the DC Circuit explaining that no,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump, you are not the king, you are not

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Speaker 3: above the law. No officer of the United States is

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Speaker 3: above the law, and just demolishing all of his arguments.

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Speaker 3: This is one of those moments where you do see

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Speaker 3: the institutions behaving the way they were intended to behave.

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Speaker 3: He can do two things, you know this. He can

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Speaker 3: appeal this get to an on bank ruling of the

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Speaker 3: DC Circuit Court all a dozen or more judges, I

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Speaker 3: don't know how many judges there are. They don't have

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Speaker 3: to do that. He will definitely appeal to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: But this is the case that he's not going to win.

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Speaker 3: You and I have, I think, talked about this on television.

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Speaker 3: I think the US Supreme Court should disqualify him on

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Speaker 3: the Fourteenth Amendment grounds, but I don't think they will.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's any chance they're going to. But

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Speaker 3: they may split the baby here say we're not getting

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Speaker 3: you off the ballot, but we're also stripping you of

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Speaker 3: any pretense of immunity. And quite frankly, I think that's

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Speaker 3: on balance a win. That's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The thing about Trump is that the longer he kicks

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Speaker 1: the can, right, the more he wins.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's all about delay, right, Yeah, yeah, he gives

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Speaker 3: himself an advantage. But we don't know how the movie ends.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you have a couple of dynamics here. Everybody

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Speaker 3: understands the need of a time. Having said that, what

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Speaker 3: took the DC Circuit Court so long? I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think but it was like scrilling you people. But you

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Speaker 3: have a judge, Chuckkin, they're in DC, who is going

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Speaker 3: to move as quickly as she can. And you're exactly right.

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump's entire strategy at this point is to play

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Speaker 3: this out to delay any sort of a conviction before

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Speaker 3: the election, because and again, don't base you know, we

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Speaker 3: got to have a certain amount of skepticism about poles, right,

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Speaker 3: But there does seem to be a consistent line in

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Speaker 3: the polls that when you ask people would you support

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump if he was a convicted felon, people are

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Speaker 3: not so hot for that, and he knows that that's

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Speaker 3: the big problem. It's one thing to run as the

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Speaker 3: martyr victim. You know, they're coming after me, candidates, something

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Speaker 3: else to be an actual convicted felon. And so Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump's going to do the you know, the delay, delayed, delay,

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Speaker 3: but that this has been a strategy for what twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty years now, You've been watching him. He does this

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Speaker 3: on all litigation.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's worked for him thus far.

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Speaker 3: It has worked for him, I mean, And the fact

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Speaker 3: that we are now in February of twenty twenty four

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Speaker 3: and there have been no trials about his criminal behavior,

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Speaker 3: with the exception of the Egene Carol case, which I

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Speaker 3: believe you have some familiarity with, is an indication of

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Speaker 3: some success. I don't know if you and I have

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Speaker 3: talked about this. I continue to be baffled by the

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Speaker 3: way he went out of his way to call attention

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Speaker 3: to case where he's been found to have raped and

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Speaker 3: then defamed a woman. You know, maybe the reptilian instinct

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Speaker 3: has some limitations.

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Speaker 1: Just saying I think Trump thought that if he just

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Speaker 1: made everything candidate Trump, that his cases.

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Speaker 2: Would go away.

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Speaker 1: But it strikes me that Candidate Trump and defendant Trump.

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Speaker 2: They do not have the same goals.

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Speaker 3: No, they definitely do not have the same goals. I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 3: his performance in the courtroom has not been designed to

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Speaker 3: impress the judge or to impress the juries, and he's

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Speaker 3: paying a price for it. So he's assuming that he's

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Speaker 3: playing to a much friendlier court of public opinion. But

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Speaker 3: you know, coming back to that Egene Carroll case, I

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Speaker 3: don't think I can overstate how many voters in this

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Speaker 3: country just didn't know anything about that case before Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump decided to hang this gigantic bable on it by

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Speaker 3: showing up every day. I mean, you and I follow it.

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Speaker 3: You know the characters. I mean, there are tens of

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Speaker 3: millions of Americans that have just learned relatively recently about

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Speaker 3: this case. Now there's a lot of spin out there

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Speaker 3: of denial. You know, one thing, A loan doesn't move

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Speaker 3: the needle. But it's now in play in a way

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Speaker 3: that it wasn't before Donald Trump put it in play.

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Speaker 1: And we're still waiting for this federal fraud judgment.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, judging Gorn. You mean, yeah, well, you know

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Speaker 3: the interesting thing about that judgment is, you know how

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Speaker 3: it's going to turn out this is another one of

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Speaker 3: the cases. You know how it's going to turn out.

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Speaker 3: The question is how big is it going to be?

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Speaker 3: And my guess is it's going to be huge. And

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Speaker 3: that thing is getting worse for him because we were

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Speaker 3: expecting to get that ruling last week. Judge put it off.

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Speaker 3: I think the intelligence speculation is that maybe they're looking

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Speaker 3: at possible perjury charges involving that. So nothing about that

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Speaker 3: gets better for him. And plus that's about something he

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Speaker 3: really genuinely cares about, his money, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and his family business, right which I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's the legacy of trump Ism and Trump himself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it shatters the myth. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's the Golden Tower does built on lies

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Speaker 3: and bullshit that convince people. And by the way, you know,

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Speaker 3: the fun NBC have a lot to answer for for

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Speaker 3: the whole Apprentice thing and putting him out there because

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Speaker 3: a lot of people thought, hey, he's a successful businessman

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Speaker 3: when he wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Right, he has become way more powerful than the Republican Party, right,

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Speaker 1: and you're seeing that, right, Like, we don't know if

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Speaker 1: he's going to fire Ron Romney McDaniel. There's some evidence

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Speaker 1: our chief of staff just resigned that maybe that happened.

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Speaker 1: If he loses, does the Republican Party get to now

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Speaker 1: will they be able to reconstitute themselves or do they

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Speaker 1: lose those people forever? I mean, is trump Ism just Trump?

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Speaker 1: Or is trumpsm this anti democratic movement?

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Speaker 3: We should devote an entire podcast to this question.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 3: Trump Ism will be with us for a very very

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Speaker 3: long time. You've lost a lot of people, but also

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Speaker 3: you've brought a lot of people into politics in the

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Speaker 3: last decade now who think this is normal. And there's

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Speaker 3: this massive infrastructure, financial infrastructure, but also a media ecosystem

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Speaker 3: that rewards trumpy behavior. So I don't see this going

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Speaker 3: anytime soon. I mean, just look at what happens to

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Speaker 3: any decent Republican that stands up and says this is wrong.

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Speaker 3: Look at them all, you know, whether you're talking about

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Speaker 3: Liz Cheney or Adam Kinsinger or I don't know how

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Speaker 3: you feel about him, but I mean, Chris Christy did it.

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Speaker 3: You know, Look what's happening to James Langford even as

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Speaker 3: we speak, they are they become non persons immediately. And

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Speaker 3: look who are the rock stars of this party And

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Speaker 3: a lot of those people are going to be around

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Speaker 3: for I'm sorry to say this, twenty thirty forty years

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Speaker 3: in Republican politics, so this is not something that's going away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much, Charlie.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you. It's always a pleasure to come back

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Speaker 3: on your podcast anytime.

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Speaker 1: Michael Isikoff and Daniel Klydeman are the authors of Find

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Speaker 1: Me the Votes. A hard charging Georgia prosecutor or a

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Speaker 1: Rogue President and the Plot to Steal an American Election.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Too Fast Politics. Daniel Hi, and mister Mike Iisikov.

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Speaker 2: Hi there, Mollie.

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Speaker 1: So have you done a bunch of books together or

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Speaker 1: is this your first book together.

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Speaker 5: No, this is our first book together. But we have

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Speaker 5: worked together on and off, mostly on since nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 5: So we were investigative reporters together at Newsweek, and then

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Speaker 5: we worked.

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Speaker 4: Together at Yahoo for about almost ten years.

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Speaker 1: So the book is called Find Me the Votes. You

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Speaker 1: really hit the timing on this in a pretty interesting way.

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Speaker 1: Tell me your original plan for this book, how you

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Speaker 1: sort of started working on it.

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Speaker 6: Basically, Look, the first germs of the idea came in

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty one, when it looked like Fonnie Willis was

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Speaker 6: the only prosecutor who was going to go after Donald

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Speaker 6: Trump for his efforts to steal the twenty twenty presidential election.

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Speaker 6: If you remember, shortly after the phone call January second

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Speaker 6: of twenty twenty one, in which Trump tells Raffinsburger to

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Speaker 6: find eleven seven hundred and eighty votes, just one more

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Speaker 6: than is needed to flip Georgia's electoral votes, Fannie Willis

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Speaker 6: indicated she would have to investigate because rad Rathlisberger was

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Speaker 6: in Bolton County. What he took that phone call in

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Speaker 6: John's Creek, just a couple of miles inside the county line,

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Speaker 6: and Fannie Willis knew that a potential crime had taken

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Speaker 6: place in her jurisdiction. For the longest time, she was

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Speaker 6: the only ballgame in town, although she was swamped with

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Speaker 6: a lot of other pressing cases, thousands of unindicted murders

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Speaker 6: and the sexual assaults and all, so it took her

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Speaker 6: a while to get up to speed. And if you remember,

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Speaker 6: all for a long period of time it was not

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Speaker 6: clear the Justice Department was going to do anything. At

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Speaker 6: the end of the day, she was the last, but

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Speaker 6: we believe it was the most consequential case of all.

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Speaker 6: Donald Trump didn't do what he did on his own.

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Speaker 6: He had an army of Confederates who helped him pressure

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Speaker 6: state officials, lie about election workers, and put pressure all

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Speaker 6: across the board in Georgia to get him the votes

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Speaker 6: he needed to win that state. And Fannie Willis brought

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Speaker 6: a racketeering conspiracy case. It's the only conspiracy case that

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Speaker 6: captures the full enormity of what Donald Trump was trying

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Speaker 6: to do in Georgia.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and Molly, there were other dimensions to the case

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Speaker 5: and what happened in Georgia that we thought were important

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Speaker 5: and would make a compelling narrative. One thing was the

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Speaker 5: human toll in Georgia that you didn't quite see in

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Speaker 5: the same way in any of the other potential cases.

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Speaker 5: Georgia was where Trump's efforts were most furious, and where

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Speaker 5: the alleged criminality, you know, there was sort of the

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Speaker 5: widest scope of alleged criminality that just touched more people

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Speaker 5: and more sort of average Americans than in any of

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Speaker 5: any of the other cases. And in particular, the sort

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Speaker 5: of climate of fear and the threats that rained down

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Speaker 5: against so many people who were involved in administering the

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Speaker 5: election and poll watchers. People know the stories about Ruby

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Speaker 5: Freeman and her daughter, Shay Moss, but it was up

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Speaker 5: and down from the highest levels of government Brad Raffensberger obviously,

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Speaker 5: and people in his office and their families, their spouses,

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Speaker 5: their children, their brothers and sisters. I mean, it was pervasive,

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Speaker 5: and we thought it was important to tell that story

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Speaker 5: because that climate of fear could very easily be reignited

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Speaker 5: going forward. We are likely to have a rematch between

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Speaker 5: Trump and Biden, and so we just thought that was

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Speaker 5: an important part of the story.

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Speaker 4: The sort of human dimension.

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Speaker 1: Did you have any inkling of the relationship between the

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and Nathan Wade?

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Speaker 5: We did not, Molly, And you know what's interesting, And

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Speaker 5: I've talked to people inside the DA's office. The people

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Speaker 5: around her and who worked most close mostly with her

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Speaker 5: had no inkling either. I understand they were shocked when

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Speaker 5: they learned about it.

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Speaker 4: It did happen.

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Speaker 5: It sounds like, at least according to Nathan Wade's account

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Speaker 5: in a sworn Affidavid in that filing on Friday came

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Speaker 5: in response to the original emotion. It did not start

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Speaker 5: until quite a bit after Nathan Wade was hired, and

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Speaker 5: it was not something that they were doing openly and

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Speaker 5: you know, ostentatiously, so we did not get an inkling

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Speaker 5: of it at all.

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Speaker 4: Let me just add a couple of things.

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Speaker 6: Look, who's clearly a misstep on her part had this

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Speaker 6: relationship to give any ammunition at all to Trump and

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Speaker 6: his co defendants in this case. But that said, if

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Speaker 6: you take a step back and sort of look at

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Speaker 6: this from you know, a higher lens, it really may

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Speaker 6: end up being a complete nothing burger. I mean, if,

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Speaker 6: in fact, what Nathan Wade put in that smorn Affidavid

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Speaker 6: last Friday, and backed up by Fannie Willims's own filing

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Speaker 6: is accurate, and the relationship didn't begin until after he

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Speaker 6: was hired, it's hard to see how this has any

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Speaker 6: impact on the case at all. If next Friday, in

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Speaker 6: the hearing before Judge McAfee, he asks Ashley Merchant, the

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Speaker 6: lawyer from Michael Roman who brought the motion to disqualify

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Speaker 6: Fannie Willis, over this, tell me how the relationship between

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Speaker 6: Fannie Willis and Nathan Wade prejudiced your client. She's going

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Speaker 6: to be stumped because there's absolutely zero evidence that it did.

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00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 6: There was no constitutional rights of Michael Roman that were violated,

438
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 6: no evidence of prejudice in the case or prosecutorial misconduct.

439
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 6: So I mean, look, taking a step back, what are

440
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 6: we talking about here and interoffice romance between two middle

441
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 6: aged professionals who are single at the time. I mean,

442
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 6: I know a thing or two about sex scandals, and

443
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 6: this is about as lame as you get, Like, where's

444
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 6: the here?

445
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 5: And by the way, just one more beat on this, Molly,

446
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 5: because in the motion they make a lot about the

447
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 5: kind of financial entanglements between the two of them, that

448
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 5: Fannie Willis was authorizing these payments to the way and

449
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 5: then Nathan Wade was using that same money. Money, of course,

450
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 5: is fungible, so it's hard to say it's that same money.

451
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 5: But that's allege to take her on lavish vacation's and

452
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 5: Caribbean cruises. What Nathan Wade filed in the response was

453
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 5: that they alternated a spending. They were, you know, middle

454
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 5: aged lawyers with good salaries, and they essentially went Dutch,

455
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 5: so she paid for vacations as well. So I said,

456
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 5: that really undercuts that part of the argument.

457
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, look, I'll put a small caveat in in here,

458
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 6: which is that, you know, Ashley Mershen, you know, quickly

459
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 6: filed the response saying she's got evidence or witnesses who

460
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 6: can contradict what was said in that affidavit. It's hard

461
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 6: to imagine what she's talking about. She didn't put any

462
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 6: affidavids in contradicting Nathan Wade's but you know, assuming she's

463
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 6: got a photograph of the two of them making out

464
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 6: in twenty twenty one before he was hired, you know,

465
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 6: I would be you know, that was seriously a cut.

466
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 6: But I seriously doubt she does.

467
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 4: I think we would have seen it if she had

468
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 4: fact at it. And so at the end of the day,

469
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 4: it's hard.

470
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 6: To imagine the judge is going to want to have

471
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 6: a full blown evidentiator hearing about the DA's sex life.

472
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 6: It just absence some compelling evidence that something wrong was

473
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 6: done here, and so far I haven't seen it.

474
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: The one thing I would say is that, you know,

475
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: I think Trump lawyers tend to be a fairly sketchy crew,

476
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: and obviously this is a right wing tactic to smear her,

477
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: but it also is unnecessarily giving Trump world a little,

478
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: you know, something to push back on, which is quite annoying.

479
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 2: And worth thinking about.

480
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: You know, if you're going after Trump world, you have

481
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: to be so incredibly careful about everything you do.

482
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, no doubt about that.

483
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 5: You have to get your house in order before you

484
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 5: take one lawyer who are going to certainly use kind

485
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 5: of scorched earth tactics. And remember, you know, Michael Roby,

486
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 5: this is people have not commented all that much about this,

487
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 5: but Michael Roman himself, the defendant whose lawyer filed the motion,

488
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 5: This is a guy who you know, this is an

489
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 5: OPO research person.

490
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 4: This is a guy who really.

491
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 5: Ran the intelligence unit for the Koch brothers and did

492
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 5: OPO research for the Trump campaign.

493
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 4: And so you know, you sort of need to know

494
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 4: who you're dealing.

495
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 5: With, you know, when you go into a case like this,

496
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 5: and you know, we spend a lot of time with

497
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 5: Fannie Willis interviewed her, you know, six times over many

498
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 5: hours over the two and a half years that we

499
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 5: reported this book, and so you know, we thought a

500
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 5: lot about like, how did this happen? How did she

501
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 5: allow herself to put herself in this situation? And you know,

502
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 5: she is a very complicated woman, She's very human. This

503
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 5: obviously isn't the first time that people have been surprised

504
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 5: by office relationships.

505
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 4: She is a kind of a force of nature.

506
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 5: She's a trial lawyer, and trial lawyers sometimes carry themselves

507
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 5: with a certain amount of rabato and certitude, and she's

508
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 5: got a touch of arrogance. Sometimes your virtues can also

509
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 5: be your vices, and she is an extraordinarily talented trial

510
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 5: lawyer and a kind of, again, a force of nature

511
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 5: in the courtroom.

512
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 4: But you know, that.

513
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 5: Little bit of cockiness can also lead to blind spots,

514
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 5: and perhaps that's what happened here.

515
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: Will you talk about her early time in the DIA's

516
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: office and sort of how she cut her teeth, because

517
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: that's really interesting.

518
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 6: She has an interesting background. Her father was a civil

519
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 6: rights activist who became for a while a black panther.

520
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 6: It's actually founded the Black Panther Party of Los Angeles.

521
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 6: Talk about sexual relationships. He was living for a while

522
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 6: with a fellow member of his Central Committee, Angela Datas,

523
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 6: who went on to fame and notoriety.

524
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: She may have heard of her.

525
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 7: Right.

526
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 6: He sheds his radical beliefs, becomes an administrative law judge,

527
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 6: and Washington raises Fani on his own. She goes to

528
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 6: Howard Emery law school, wins the National Moot Court Championship contest,

529
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 6: goes to the DA's office, and in a very short

530
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 6: order she becomes the star litigator of the Fulton County

531
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 6: Djay's office. She is, as many of them described our

532
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 6: friends and foes, the force of nature in the courtroom.

533
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: You know that.

534
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 6: I used to say to young DA's who got hired

535
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 6: in Fulton County, if you want to know how to

536
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 6: do a homicide case, sit in and watch Fannie Willis do.

537
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 4: So.

538
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 6: She was the master of homicide prosecutions. And then she

539
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 6: goes on to be the star litigator, as I said,

540
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 6: And handle's the most sweeping controversial RICO case in the

541
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 6: history of Georgia, which was the Atlanta Public Schools teacher's case,

542
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 6: something that actually did not go down well in the

543
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 6: African American community because all the defendants were people of color.

544
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: But Fannie Willis.

545
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 6: Won the case using RICO, the Georgia racketeering conspiracy law,

546
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 6: and was widely acknowledged as the master of RICO in Georgia.

547
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 6: It's interesting, you know, she's not the prosecutor that a

548
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 6: lot of liberals would like her to be. She when

549
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 6: she runs for DA, she runs on a tough on

550
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 6: crime platform. She's endorsed by the police Union in the

551
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 6: summer of George Floyd twenty twenty, and is endorsed by

552
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 6: a Republican activist in Buckett who was worried about crime,

553
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 6: Mary Norwood. In fact, this was so offensive to many

554
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 6: in the black community that Ti, the Grammy Award winning

555
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 6: rapper who had become something of a political power broker

556
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 6: in Atlanta, goes to Fannie Willis during our campaign and.

557
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 4: Offers her a deal.

558
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 6: Renounce the support of the police union, renounced Mary norwich support,

559
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 6: give up their campaign contributions, and I'll make you whole.

560
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 6: I'll make up for all of it and funeral money

561
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 6: to your campaign. And Fannie Willis says, no way. They're

562
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 6: a part of my community just as you are, and

563
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 6: I'm not gonna renounce their support. It tells you a

564
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 6: lot about who she is, and it's not She is

565
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 6: not one of those progressive prosecutors backed by George Soros

566
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 6: who Donald Trump likes to rail against.

567
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll say one of the things she says that

568
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: she keeps saying, like, I don't understand why people are

569
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: interested in my personal life. She's the daughter of a

570
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: black panther Angela Davis was like her quase stepmom.

571
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: Does she really not understand why people are interested in it?

572
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

573
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 6: Angela Davis was long before.

574
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 4: Boddy Willis was born, so.

575
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: Right, but her father dated Angela Davis. Does she not.

576
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: Understand why that would be interesting to people?

577
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting Molly.

578
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 5: I had this very conversation with one of her closest

579
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 5: advisors because she said that to over and over again.

580
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 4: Why are people interested in me?

581
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 5: You know, I understand why you might be interested in

582
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 5: the case, and I can't really talk that much about

583
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 5: the case, but why are you interested in me? And

584
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 5: the person I spoke to sort of thought that, really

585
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 5: it is a touch of naivete. Now, she has not

586
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 5: been in the public eye in the way that she

587
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 5: is now. She had never really run for office before. Yes,

588
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 5: she'd been a well known trial lawyer, but really in

589
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 5: the legal community in Fulton County and in Atlanta. And

590
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: I don't think it's a post I think she genuinely

591
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 5: does not really understand why people would be interested in

592
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 5: her as a person as opposed to her as a lawyer.

593
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 5: I can't get inside her head. I can't fully understand

594
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 5: why she thinks that, but I do think it's genuine.

595
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 5: I think it's authentic. It may also be part of

596
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 5: the reason that she ended up in this awkward situation,

597
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 5: because if you don't understand at then you know, you're

598
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 5: not going to understand why anybody would be interested in

599
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 5: your personal life in the way that obviously the country

600
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 5: has become.

601
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: Right, it's such a strange thing to like to not

602
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: think like, this is one of the highest profile prosecutions

603
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: of one of the highest profile people, right, I mean,

604
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: it's just sort of amazing, you know.

605
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say she's terribly insulated.

606
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 5: I mean, she gave us a bunch of interviews, She's

607
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 5: given other interviews, She gets out into the community.

608
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 4: She talks to people. It is a little perplexing.

609
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 5: But again, as I say, there's no indication that I've

610
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 5: discerned that it's some kind of a pose.

611
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's just a really interesting bit. Can

612
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: you explain why it's taken so long? And then also

613
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the Lindsay Graham stuff.

614
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, Listen, We've unearthed a lot of nuggets in this

615
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 6: book that was previously unknown about both Trump's pressure campaign

616
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 6: and the investigation. But the one you're referring to which

617
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 6: has gotten some notice is the Special grand Jury. Calls,

618
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 6: you know, scores of witnesses. One of them was Lindsey Graham,

619
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 6: who got to subpoena from Fannie Willis. He fights it

620
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 6: up and down, saying, you know, speech in debate clause.

621
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 6: You know they're coming out, there's no justification for me

622
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 6: having to testify, and I will fight this all the way.

623
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 6: He loses and then gets called before the Special Grand Jury.

624
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 6: According to our sources, he throws Trump under the bus,

625
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 6: makes comments about how, you know, if Martians told him

626
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 6: that the election was stolen, he'd probably believe them. Even

627
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 6: suggests that Donald Trump cheats at golf.

628
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: Not the first person to suggest Donald Trump cheats at golf, but.

629
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 4: Maybe the first person to do so.

630
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 6: Under kids of this, and then after his grand jury apparents,

631
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 6: he walks out, he spots Bonnie Willis. She comes up

632
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 6: to thank him for testifying, and he like unloads himself, says,

633
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 6: thank you for that. It was so cathartic, and then

634
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 6: he hugs her. Oh my god, he's so the center

635
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 6: hugs bonding. Willis the prosecutor pursuing Donald Trump, and then

636
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 6: our redyaction. According to resources who watch it, is whatever, dude.

637
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 5: This anecdote, this nugget, among all the of the scoops

638
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 5: we had in this book, seems to have like really

639
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 5: resonated the most in some ways. It's such a you know,

640
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 5: sort of sign of the times politically. Here is a

641
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 5: guy in Lindsey Graham, who's hero and mentor was John McCain,

642
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 5: famously the maverick who bucked his own party, you know,

643
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 5: based on his own convictions. And then Donald Trump comes

644
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: along and Lindsey Graham, you know, swears total allegiance to

645
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 5: him and defends him at every turn, and people are

646
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 5: kind of wondering, well, you know, what happened to this guy,

647
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 5: And of course that is symbolic of what happened to

648
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 5: the Republican Party more generally. But there is a sense

649
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 5: in which Lizzie Graham might be a little bit tortured,

650
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 5: that there's an internal struggle going on inside him. And

651
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 5: so then when he has the opportunity and really has

652
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 5: no choice but to tell the truth in front of

653
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 5: the grand jury, he unburdens himself and he calls it

654
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 5: cathartic and he hugs, And I do think this is

655
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 5: something that this sort of split screen of what people

656
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 5: say publicly and what they actually believe is something that

657
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 5: you know that you would find in a lot of

658
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 5: other Republicans if they were put before the grand jury

659
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 5: and sworn to tell the truth.

660
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: Thank you both so much, Thank you, all right, thank you.

661
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: Emily Atkin is the editor of He Did. Welcome back

662
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: to Fast Politics. Emily.

663
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 4: Always happy to be here.

664
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: Molly, We're so happy to have you.

665
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: So there have been so many tiny climb not even tiny,

666
00:34:53,920 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: enormous climate victories that nobody ever talks about, because why

667
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: would we ever talk about anything. I originally booked you

668
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: because I wanted to talk about this incredible move from

669
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: the Biden administration, which you know is smart because Republicans

670
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: went crazy about it, But it was like a little

671
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: too complicated for them to like make into a Fox

672
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: News talking point, so it didn't become the cultural war

673
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: that I think they wanted it to be. But I'm

674
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 1: hoping you could walk us through the Biden administrations plan

675
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: to pause natural gas exports, right.

676
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. Actually, I think it's like so complicated that a

677
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 4: lot of people don't matter where they're at on the

678
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 4: political spectrum 're having a hard time understanding it.

679
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so talk us through it.

680
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, actually, it's interesting what you said is the

681
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 4: Biden's decision to pause natural gas exports. That's not really

682
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 4: what happened. What the Biden administration did is they announced

683
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 4: the decision to pause new hermit or proposed or died

684
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 4: natural gas.

685
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: Right, so even less than what I said, even more

686
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: sort of tentative, if you will.

687
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 4: This is why I think it's important to be careful

688
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 4: about how you say it, because here are to really

689
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 4: I think salient points about the decision. So pausing new permits,

690
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 4: it's a big deal, and I'll get to that in

691
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 4: a second. But here's what it's not. It means that

692
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 4: no existing LNG that's liquified natural gas is the type

693
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 4: of gas talking about. It's like frack gas that's been liquefied.

694
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 4: No existing LNG export facility is affected. So there are

695
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 4: eight existing export terminals around the country and they will

696
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 4: continue to operate. The flow of fossil fuels overseas will continue.

697
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 4: And not only will that flow of LNG overseas continue,

698
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 4: it will massively expand. There are ten at least ten

699
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 4: new LNG exports facilities that have already gotten the approvals

700
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 4: that Biden paused. They haven't been finished building yet. Some

701
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 4: of them aren't even under construction. They will get built,

702
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 4: and they will cause the amount of gas we export

703
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 4: overseas to double. Now, why this is still a big

704
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 4: deal putting a temporary pause on new approvals is that

705
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 4: there are at least six major proposed LERG export terminals

706
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 4: that are affected. And if they just went through the

707
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 4: normal process, if they just got rubber stamp approved the

708
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 4: way that all the previous ones had, it would have

709
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 4: ensured a massive amount of greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere.

710
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 4: There's one estimate that I've been using. It's life cycle

711
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 4: emission total of three hundred and seventeen coal plants. That's

712
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 4: how much would have gotten into the atmosphere from the extraction,

713
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 4: the fracking of the gas, the transporting of that gas

714
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 4: to the facility, the liquefication of the gas, the chilling

715
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 4: of the gas, the exporting of the gas, which has

716
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 4: a lot of the leaks, and then the burning of

717
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 4: the gas just you know, all of that. So that's

718
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 4: that's a good reason to celebrate. I think it's also

719
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 4: like a it's a signal. I think the most thing

720
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 4: to know about this decision is that it is a

721
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 4: signal to other countries all over the world and fossil

722
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 4: fuel producers that the United States is starting to take

723
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: climate change into consideration of its decision making on whether

724
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 4: or not to approve fossil fuel projects, which is, you

725
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: would think, considering the climate situation that we're in, that

726
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: we would like already be doing that.

727
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: Let's just talk a little bit about what that means

728
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: sort of in the grander scheme of things.

729
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 2: So what does that mean.

730
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: It means that that sort of other countries will take

731
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: sort of the Paris Climate Accord more seriously.

732
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 4: Well, okay, here's the thing. Right now, it means very

733
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 4: little about what their countries are going to do. None

734
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 4: of the facilities that we're going to be built or

735
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 4: that still might be built. I feel like we got

736
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 4: back up for a second and say, like, right.

737
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: Just because they're not being approved right now doesn't mean

738
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: they won't be approved eventually.

739
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 4: This is a temporary pause, and the temporary pause is

740
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 4: so the Biden administration can think up a new approval

741
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 4: process that adequately considers the effects of climate change.

742
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: Right, which is actually what we want our federal government doing.

743
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe too slowly, but at least they're doing

744
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: it right. I mean, I don't think the Trump administration

745
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: would be pausing to consider that.

746
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 4: No, But if your job, which is the doe's job,

747
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 4: is to decide whether a project is in the public interest,

748
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 4: that's what the abermit is, right, is this American public interest?

749
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 4: You would think it would just be a prudent thing

750
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 4: to accurately consider the effect of these facilities on climate change.

751
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: Yes, for sure.

752
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: Now go on and explain to us about this sort

753
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: of incredible thing that I read about in Politico, about

754
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: how renewables are actually really taking off in America and

755
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: they're actually the second largest.

756
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: Can you talk to us about that, Yeah, a little bit.

757
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 4: I mean, this is something that's so frustrating I think

758
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 4: as so my job generally, and what I do is

759
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 4: I try to distill and debunk a lot of fossil

760
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 4: fuel misinformation because so much of our collective understanding about

761
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 4: climate change has been subliminally and subconsciously shaped by the

762
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry. Is messaging designed to delay our transition

763
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 4: to renewable energy.

764
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: And that's true in Saudi Arabia too, Right, Like America

765
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,959
Speaker 1: and Saudi Arabia are the two countries where they're most

766
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: affected by the advertising of the fossil fuels.

767
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 4: Right yeah, But also like I mean, if you go

768
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 4: to the UK, you'll see the UK is like starting

769
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 4: to crack down on it. Europe in general is starting

770
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 4: to crack down it a little.

771
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: But like, but they're better off than we are, like

772
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: they have had real science.

773
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 4: So but this idea that we are not ready to

774
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 4: transition to renewables, that we need a quote unquote bridge

775
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 4: with the gas is decades old, and it's a delay

776
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 4: tactic to delay or transition to renewables so that the

777
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 4: fospiel companies can continue to profit. What you're seeing now

778
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 4: is that renewable energy is already the cheapest source of

779
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 4: electricity in many parts of the world. Really, more and more,

780
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 4: we're just seeing evidence that gas. The argument that gas

781
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 4: is this bridge that we need and then it's completely

782
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: unrealistic to transition to renewables in places that are dependent

783
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: on coal is just very contrary to the fact that.

784
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: What you're saying is it's bullshit. Gas does not help

785
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: renewables work.

786
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 4: You know, doesn't help how would that be true. I

787
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 4: always think itself funny when it's like gas helps renewables

788
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 4: get work in what way?

789
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: Well, it helps Exxon make money. So talk to me

790
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: about what the renewables are, and then I would love

791
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: you to talk about this Johnson Act because part of

792
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: the problem having with offshore wind is a regulation from

793
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties.

794
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: Right.

795
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 4: Oh, we haven't had offshore wind in the United States

796
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 4: at all.

797
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: Right because of this regulation from the nineteen twenties called

798
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: the Johnson Act. This is a country where we don't

799
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: regulate anything that we need to regulate, but we regulate

800
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: everything that we don't need to regulate.

801
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 4: I think that's so I'm gonna be honest with you here,

802
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 4: Like the Johnson Act itself is not something that I've

803
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: done a ton of reporting on.

804
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: Well, nor has anyone else, so they're in good shape.

805
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 4: But what I have done a lot of reporting on

806
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 4: is just the I mean, probably for the last decade

807
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 4: I have been reporting on various attempts to get offshore

808
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 4: wind off the ground. And literally, I think it was

809
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 4: just earlier in January the first we had the first

810
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 4: wind farm off the coast of Massachusetts produce some energy finally.

811
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 4: But yeah, we've had a lot of fossil fuel funded

812
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 4: opposition to renewable power development in the United States. You're

813
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 4: seeing that pop up all over the now, particularly with

814
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 4: the IRA the Inflation Reduction Act getting passed, and there's

815
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 4: all this incentive for communities to build wind and solar

816
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 4: and battery facilities, and so you'll see these fossil fuel

817
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 4: funded front groups come into communities under the name of

818
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 4: like Concerned Citizens of Ohio. Right, They're riling up communities

819
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 4: by spreading this information about what these renewable energy facilities

820
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 4: will do to them. The worst part about it is that,

821
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 4: like some of it is based in real concerns, you know.

822
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 4: For instance, I think with offshore wind is a huge one.

823
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 4: There's a massive movement funded by the fossil fuel industry

824
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 4: to rile people up about the potential harmful impact on Wales.

825
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: These are people to not give a fuck about Wales.

826
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 1: I think it's really important. Like this is like Donald

827
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: Trump being like, you know, it's a real danger to

828
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: the oil and gas companies. When Donald Trump is like

829
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: it kills the birds.

830
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 4: And you're like, I when have you ever cared for birds?

831
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: Exactly?

832
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And well, never mind that also the fossil fuel

833
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 4: funded think tanks that are behind a lot of these movements,

834
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 4: they are also at the same time pushing policies that

835
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 4: would kill whales.

836
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: Now and fuk about the whales.

837
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 4: Right, Most whales are killed and injured by boat strikes

838
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 4: and the fishing boats. And you don't see any concern

839
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 4: about fishing boats. And that's not to say there aren't

840
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: people who aren't fossil fuel funded actors, just like regular

841
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 4: people who are concerned about whales.

842
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: Right, But Exxon is not concerned about whales. They do

843
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: not give a fuck.

844
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 4: Their concern is getting inflamed by this moneyed operation to

845
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 4: stop offshore wind development and essentially take a small concern

846
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 4: and blow it up to this level that becomes essentially misinformation,

847
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 4: solely to destroy the competition of fossil fuels.

848
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what renewables are sort of the future,

849
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: and what the Biden administration is doing right and what

850
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: the bid administration is doing wrong.

851
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 4: I mean, I think a really good example about renewables

852
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 4: being the future is looking at Texas and vulnerability of

853
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 4: their electric grid to very extreme increasing climate change fueled

854
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 4: weather right in Texas just recently, battery storage, solar power,

855
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 4: and wind energy were the reason that they were able

856
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 4: to have AC during a one to oh three degree

857
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 4: heat weight because the heat was causing some of the

858
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: gas facilities to fail. So these giant batteries that generated

859
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 4: power to stable the grid when large gas and coal

860
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 4: plants had these power outages, that was the reason. I

861
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 4: think one was it. It was like back in June

862
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 4: of last year, there was an instance where like over

863
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 4: a two week period, two times a nuclear power plant

864
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 4: dropped offline and the two coal plants sufvered separate outages

865
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 4: because of a heat wave, and then giant batteries for

866
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 4: the only reason that they were able to stabilize the grid.

867
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 4: So we're seeing this not only in the US but

868
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 4: all over the world that we're seeing renewables, batteries, wind

869
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 4: solar as lifelines. They're actually making up for some of

870
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 4: this small.

871
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 1: They're bridging the gap for the dirty electricity right correct.

872
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 4: But in terms of what Biden is doing right and

873
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 4: what Biden is doing wrong, I think, to make it

874
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 4: really simple, it's that what Biden is doing right is

875
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 4: making it possible and taking out barriers to be able

876
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 4: to build renewable energy and expand clean energy capacity throughout

877
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 4: the country, most significantly through the passage of the Inflation

878
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 4: Reduction Act. What Biden is doing wrong in terms of

879
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 4: policies that will effectively slow climate change is continuing to

880
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 4: green light through his bureaucratic agencies massive fossil fuel development.

881
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 4: I think what you'll see with the LNG decision is

882
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 4: that you'll see environmental groups say stuff like this is

883
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 4: the biggest statement of president has ever made to stand

884
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: up to the fossil fuel industry.

885
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: It's not quite enough.

886
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's true, but that's because no one's ever done

887
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 4: to do that. So it's like the real love, right,

888
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 4: So like just ish temporary pause that realistically he could

889
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 4: reverse the moment he gets re elected. There's nothing stopping

890
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 4: him from doing that. Is still the biggest thing that

891
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 4: has ever done to stand up to the fossil feel industry.

892
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 4: Just saying hold up for a couple months, right.

893
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: Yes, for sure, and I agree, but it's worth pausing

894
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: for a minute and just talking about Donald Trump is

895
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: running on basically a drill baby drill kind of ethos,

896
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: but actually America drills now maybe too much too from

897
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: an environmental standpoint, apps about too much. Yes, Because now

898
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: aren't we the net exporter of natural gas?

899
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 4: We are the largest exporter by far in the world

900
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 4: of gas. The next one behind us is Australia, and

901
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 4: they export half as much as we do. And that's

902
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 4: only happened within the last ten years, so a massive

903
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 4: amount of that has been under Biden's watch.

904
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: Because I want to get back to this Trump say

905
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 1: he was going to be dictator for a day because

906
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: he was going to drill, drill, drill. At some point,

907
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: you have so much gas that you start to make

908
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: gas not even valuable, right, I mean just from the

909
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: economic standpoint here, not from the climate catastrophe standpoint, which

910
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: we're already well on our way.

911
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 4: Perhaps, Except here's the thing. We are shipping most of

912
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 4: that gas to other countries, right right, right. The really

913
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 4: weird double edged sword here is that not only are

914
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 4: we producing a lot of gas, you would think that maybe, like, oh,

915
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 4: that would make gas prices really low.

916
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: Here right now, But it doesn't necessarily.

917
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 4: No, because we actually don't have that much gas because

918
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 4: we keep sending it overseas, and that makes a lot

919
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 4: more money for the fossil fuel companies, but it doesn't

920
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 4: lower the price of gas at home. So it's like

921
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 4: the thing that you would think Republicans are really going

922
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 4: to be excited. Yeah, you know, we're producing so much

923
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 4: that price is so low. It's like, no, you're producing

924
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 4: so much and you're making a lot of money for

925
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 4: the gas companies, but you're still keeping prices high for Americans.

926
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 4: You can talk about like energy security all you want,

927
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 4: but that is a very abstract concept to most people.

928
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 4: Most people just care about how much money they're paying

929
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 4: to fuel up their car. The reality is that at

930
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 4: this point, it would cost you less money to charge

931
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: your car exactly.

932
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: The oil and gas and coal, especially coal is way

933
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: more expensive than renewables.

934
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 4: It is cheaper to have a reliable and sustainable source

935
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 4: of energy that is not subject to geopolitical whims, right, So, like,

936
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 4: even just taking the conversation we're having out of the picture,

937
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 4: it's like, I don't understand why. From a pragmatic perspective

938
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 4: of conservative politics, if you want to keep energy costs low,

939
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 4: if you want to keep it not subject to geopolitical wins,

940
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 4: then it's better to immediately transition to renewable sources, to

941
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 4: sources produced by the actual Earth than these global conglomerate

942
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 4: boil and gas companies right now.

943
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: It's incredible staff. Emily.

944
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: The site is called Heated. You cover a lot of

945
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: really important staff. We really appreciate you.

946
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: I hope you'll come back absolutely.

947
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me on.

948
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: No moment.

949
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 7: Jesse Cannon Maley Jung Fast this week public hearing to

950
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 7: here at the Supreme Court the Fourteenth Amendment case against

951
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 7: Donald Trump being allowed to be on the ballot. What

952
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 7: are you seeing here?

953
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment section through Donald Trump is not allowed on

954
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: the ballot, is the supposition here? As an officer of

955
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: the American government, look love to see Clarence Thomas, for

956
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: whom conflict of interest has never been an issue, is

957
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: going to refuse to recuse himself. You may remember his

958
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: wife has had some experience with trying to stop the

959
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: steal and justice.

960
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: Thomas is complete. Refusal to ever recuse himself is our

961
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 2: moment of fucker.

962
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

963
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

964
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

965
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

966
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going, and again thanks for listening.