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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the gene probe.

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog dead nine days before

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Speaker 2: neighbors see the bodies through the window.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: So I.

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Speaker 3: Used to found to a one decease person inside a house.

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Speaker 2: At this hour according to law enforcement, the deaths of

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog suspicious.

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Speaker 1: What happened to the oscar winner? Let's go to that

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Speaker 1: nine to one one call listening.

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Speaker 3: Hello, I've seen you found to a one decease person

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Speaker 3: inside a house. There's no address.

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait for you to please send somebody's really quick?

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Speaker 4: Are you with a patient? Now?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm over at their property. There's no address here,

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Speaker 3: so I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever,

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Speaker 3: down at the gatehouse.

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Speaker 5: I'll bring them up here.

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Speaker 2: Curiously, hesitancy to say two dead bodies, but that could

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Speaker 2: be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer

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Speaker 2: could only see part of the second dead body.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to more.

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Speaker 5: A female and the mail probably I don't know, I

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Speaker 5: don't know. If I's just send somebody up real quick.

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Speaker 4: Okay? Are they awake? I have no idea? Are they breathing?

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Speaker 4: I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house. It's closed.

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Speaker 5: It's a long I go in, but I see the

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Speaker 5: ladies laying down on a blocker from the window.

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Speaker 4: They appeared to be completely their awake. Do they appear

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Speaker 4: to be awake or alert?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, okay, okay do you ever

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Speaker 4: hear do you hear this talk or cry?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 4: No, okay? Are they moving at all?

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Speaker 3: No, dude, they're not moving.

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Speaker 5: Just sing somebody out here really quick, dude.

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Speaker 2: Nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the call

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Speaker 2: has already said they're two dead people, and the nine

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Speaker 2: only one dispatch says do they appear to be completely awake?

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Speaker 1: Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you

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Speaker 1: hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: They're dead.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his

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Speaker 2: wife and their dog.

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Speaker 1: Now how can that all be explained away innocently at

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Speaker 1: this hour? As we go to air law enforcement?

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Speaker 2: Saving the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Finn,

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Speaker 2: Senior investigative report at the US.

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Speaker 1: Son Jessica, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Let's just start at the beginning, how the body of

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog were found.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the

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Speaker 7: maintenance worker calling nine one one and he is very frantic.

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Speaker 7: And what's something people don't realize was that there were

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Speaker 7: actually two different nine one one calls. The first one,

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Speaker 7: it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks

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Speaker 7: up and he says hello, Hello, nine one one, Hello,

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Speaker 7: and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear

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Speaker 7: a man's voice talking, and it just is this very

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Speaker 7: chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone,

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Speaker 7: and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call

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Speaker 7: him back again and tries to get the guy back

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Speaker 7: on the phone, and then there's a second phone call

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Speaker 7: to nine one one, So it just paints this really,

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Speaker 7: really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again

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Speaker 7: the two living dogs in the background, presumably the Hackman's dogs,

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Speaker 7: and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset and

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Speaker 7: very distressed. He's trying to tell the nine one dispatcher

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Speaker 7: that there are two dead people in the house, and

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Speaker 7: nine one one is asking the series of questions about

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Speaker 7: are they breathing like you said, are they talking? And

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Speaker 7: it's this really strange inquiry from the nine one one dispatcher.

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Speaker 7: And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance

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Speaker 7: worker says is, you know, as we know, the Hackmans

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Speaker 7: were very private people. There were no security cameras at

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Speaker 7: the house. They were extremely extremely private, And he says

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Speaker 7: to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house,

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Speaker 7: and there's a reason for that, pointing to how private

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Speaker 7: these two people were and how much they protected their

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Speaker 7: celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure

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Speaker 7: that people couldn't track them down and kind of were

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Speaker 7: off the grid, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: This is more of what we're learning from the sea.

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Speaker 2: We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.

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Speaker 8: Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents where

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Speaker 8: they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of

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Speaker 8: their home and located mister Kman in a separate area

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Speaker 8: of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also

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Speaker 8: found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were

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Speaker 8: located on the property.

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Speaker 9: Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry

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Speaker 9: way of Hackman's two story, green colored Stucke home opened

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Speaker 9: a jar just a bit, but there did not appear

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Speaker 9: to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected

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Speaker 9: to the three point eight million dollar home appeared to

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Speaker 9: be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.

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Speaker 2: The garage locked, the door a jar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked,

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Speaker 2: nothing rummaged through, no items taken. Everything appeared in place.

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Speaker 2: What does it mean? I know at least one expert

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Speaker 2: has focused on the dog for good reason, joining me

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Speaker 2: forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative

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Speaker 2: Research Institute and star of Zone seven podcast, Cheryl mco

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Speaker 2: Oh them, what about it?

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Speaker 10: I would focus on the dog because you're going to

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Speaker 10: see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they

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Speaker 10: put the dog in the crate in the morning or

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Speaker 10: the evening? That would give you a timetable to start

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Speaker 10: from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other

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Speaker 10: thing for me is if you talk about a net

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Speaker 10: cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's

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Speaker 10: going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans.

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Speaker 10: We may not know for sure for months what may

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Speaker 10: or may not have happened to them, but with that animal,

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Speaker 10: we would know much quicker. So my focus would be.

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Speaker 1: On the habit.

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Speaker 11: Why do you say that, Cheryl, Because you're not going

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Speaker 11: to have that many You're going to have many more

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Speaker 11: people that have to have an autopsy than an animal

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Speaker 11: that is killed in a situation or died of natural

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Speaker 11: causes or poison.

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Speaker 10: So those tests are going to be able to tell

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Speaker 10: us much much quicker what might have occurred in that home.

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Speaker 2: So you were saying, And the reason we would get

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Speaker 2: the results back on the dog more quickly the German

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Speaker 2: shepherd is because.

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Speaker 1: There's no line.

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Speaker 2: There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and

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Speaker 2: guinea pigs and birds and cats.

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Speaker 1: And dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason

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Speaker 1: for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?

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Speaker 12: Correct?

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Speaker 8: It?

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Speaker 1: Got it?

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Speaker 2: Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist,

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Speaker 2: opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking

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Speaker 2: your time away from what you do every day for

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Speaker 2: all of us, doctor Moroney, with the door, ajar, would

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Speaker 2: that rule out carbon monoxide.

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Speaker 12: In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon

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Speaker 12: monoxide has to concentrate. Can't concentrate with the door open,

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Speaker 12: doctor Moroney.

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Speaker 2: What would be found typically when bodies when someone dies

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Speaker 2: of carbon monoxide? And then I want to follow up

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Speaker 2: with you with the fact that both Hackman and his

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Speaker 2: wife were mummified to a degree. But first the carbon monoxide.

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Speaker 12: Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now,

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Speaker 12: that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the

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Speaker 12: appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased

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Speaker 12: is the take home point. And the fire department does

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Speaker 12: not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter,

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Speaker 12: so they would know that because when they enter then

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Speaker 12: they would have to use a self contained breathing apparatus.

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Speaker 12: So that's the carbon monoideques.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're going so fast out to Maroney for regular

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Speaker 2: lay people like myself. First of all, why with the

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Speaker 2: victim's face. The victim's faces be red due to carbon

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Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning, that's a surefire giveaway.

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Speaker 12: But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the

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Speaker 12: chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you

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Speaker 12: to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just

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Speaker 12: the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin.

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Speaker 12: It doesn't change, and the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits

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Speaker 12: in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves

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Speaker 12: on and off easily. It's always a red color because

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Speaker 12: that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.

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Speaker 1: I want everyone on the panel to hear what more

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Speaker 1: we know. Listen.

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Speaker 9: Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to

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Speaker 9: the left of the front door that's lying on her

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Speaker 9: right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and

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Speaker 9: a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a

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Speaker 9: black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't

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Speaker 9: say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle

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Speaker 9: with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs

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Speaker 9: of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification

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Speaker 9: in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see

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Speaker 9: feet and legs near the kitchen area. Gene Hackman is

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Speaker 9: found dead in the mudroom wearing gray sweatpants, a blue

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Speaker 9: long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane

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Speaker 9: and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs

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Speaker 9: of death.

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Speaker 2: Too, Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US

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Speaker 2: sign we're both bodies partially mummified and are we sure.

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Speaker 1: That door was a jar?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really

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Speaker 7: gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house.

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Speaker 7: At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand,

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Speaker 7: the back door was a jar. It seems like it

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Speaker 7: could have potentially police theorize been a jar to allow

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Speaker 7: the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely.

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Speaker 1: We don't know that for sure.

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Speaker 7: There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker

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Speaker 7: initially says in his nine to one to one call

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Speaker 7: that the front door is locked. When the police get there,

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Speaker 7: the police say that the front door was not locked.

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Speaker 7: So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door,

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Speaker 7: but we do know that the back door absolutely was

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Speaker 7: not only unlocked, but it was open and dogs seemed

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Speaker 7: to be coming in and out of the home freely.

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Speaker 2: Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in

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Speaker 2: a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door, Ajar. We've

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Speaker 2: seen that before when pets were involved. Okay to doctor

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Speaker 2: William Maroney. A lot to break down right there, doctor Moroney.

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Speaker 2: First of all, mummification, what is it now? We believe

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Speaker 2: and I'll get into this too.

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Speaker 1: There's just so much, so.

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Speaker 2: Many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the law

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Speaker 2: regarding for instance, the pacemaker. How long had it not

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Speaker 2: been working? And what does that mean? There's a lot

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Speaker 2: to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at, Morony,

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Speaker 2: is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what

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Speaker 2: is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean,

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Speaker 2: I would expect if they have been dead nine days

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Speaker 2: as we are told, based on a lot of different

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Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't

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Speaker 2: in decomp as opposed to mummification.

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Speaker 12: There's two words that lead us to understand mummification New Mexico.

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Speaker 12: This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa,

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Speaker 12: Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments

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Speaker 12: much faster.

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Speaker 1: And is that do I have to tell you again,

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Speaker 1: doctor Moroney?

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Speaker 2: Desicate, I'll speak, thank you, yes, and I will take that,

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Speaker 2: not in a bad way.

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Speaker 12: Dummy down for me, It's look in any other environment.

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Speaker 12: Mummification is a general principle that follows. Nobody goes to

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Speaker 12: the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around

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Speaker 12: the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs

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Speaker 12: don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all

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Speaker 12: the time on scenes mummification if somebody's been down a week.

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Speaker 12: But New Mexico, those are the key words. Is why

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Speaker 12: this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever

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Speaker 12: the conditions are New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a

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Speaker 12: big part of this.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in

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Speaker 2: New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes,

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Speaker 2: because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay,

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Speaker 2: doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and modification?

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Speaker 12: Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's

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Speaker 12: bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach,

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Speaker 12: in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria

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Speaker 12: that lives in you.

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Speaker 1: And as soon as you stop dying.

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Speaker 12: The life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it

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Speaker 12: gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass

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Speaker 12: in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of

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Speaker 12: your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body,

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Speaker 12: and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or

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Speaker 12: reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause

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Speaker 12: the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related

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Speaker 12: to decomposition, but the process of bloating is very very common.

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Speaker 12: It's just that you bloat and you dry in different

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Speaker 12: places at different times, and arms and legs are where

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Speaker 12: you mummify. First, Nobody said anything about maggots. That's very

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Speaker 12: interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time

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Speaker 12: to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.

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Speaker 12: That's very interesting. That says to me that the house

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Speaker 12: was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come

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Speaker 12: in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant

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Speaker 12: them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose,

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Speaker 12: they plant them in the mouth, and they go to

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Speaker 12: other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots.

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Speaker 12: Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.

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Speaker 1: Darthian Maroney, need to understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs insects as

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Speaker 2: it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand, doctor Moroney.

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Speaker 2: For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body

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Speaker 2: must be exposed in some way.

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Speaker 1: To the outdoors.

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Speaker 2: So the outdoor, the fly has to come in to

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Speaker 2: the residents to get to the body, right right, okay,

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Speaker 2: And even if there are no flies in the area,

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Speaker 2: as soon as a body as someone dies, they come.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I'm not an etymologist, but they

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Speaker 2: show up in all sorts of weather conditions.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying, this is really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Many people believe that with a dead body magots just

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Speaker 2: originate from the body.

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Speaker 1: That's not true.

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Speaker 2: The fly has to the insect. The adult insect has

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Speaker 2: to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying, because.

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Speaker 1: There weren't on that door, must not have been a

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Speaker 1: jar the entire time.

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Speaker 12: Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they

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Speaker 12: don't talk about maggots in any other case where anybody

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Speaker 12: dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist, and

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Speaker 12: the maggots help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on

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Speaker 12: the body the first hour it dies outdoors, so if

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Speaker 12: you don't have any maggots at all, then there were

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Speaker 12: never any openings for windows or doors the whole time

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Speaker 12: this was going on, and the mummification comes from the

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Speaker 12: air conditioning.

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Speaker 9: Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her

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Speaker 9: father or stepmother in a few months since she lives

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Speaker 9: in California. As far as talking to her dad, she

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Speaker 9: said it all have been a couple of months, but

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Speaker 9: she adds they were close. She says everything seemed normal

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Speaker 9: and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates

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Speaker 9: and yoga multiple times a week.

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Speaker 1: For our alert, I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house.

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Speaker 5: It closed as long as I can't go in, but

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Speaker 5: I see that lab she's laying down on a blog

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Speaker 5: from the windows a female and email. Probably I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if I's seen.

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Speaker 2: Somebody question what do we know about the death of

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, his wife and dog. At this hour, law

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Speaker 2: enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling

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Speaker 2: it accident, not ruling it suicide, and now we're learning

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Speaker 2: carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course, theories emerge after Randy

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Speaker 2: Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid

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Speaker 2: shared his theory, calling on news agencies to stop talking

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Speaker 2: about the films he is in. This is how they

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Speaker 2: get away with murdering famous people. To doctor Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 2: joining me, a renownced psychoanalysis out of the LA jurisdiction

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Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. You can find her at doctor

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Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall dot com. You can also see her on

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Speaker 2: Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder theories are abounding, and

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Speaker 2: part of that reason is because we're not hearing it

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Speaker 2: was suicide for obvious reasons.

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Speaker 1: We're not hearing it was accident.

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Speaker 2: But yet there was no break in, no forced entry apparent,

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Speaker 2: and we can't find anything missing from the home. So

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Speaker 2: naturally people start thinking murder.

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Speaker 6: That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that

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Speaker 6: could have taken place. And what I would be mostly

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Speaker 6: concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this

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Speaker 6: couple have any negative large events looming in their life?

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Speaker 6: Like a cancer diagnosis not able to be a mortgage.

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Speaker 6: I know that sounds strange, but take that into account.

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Speaker 1: Why was there a.

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Speaker 6: Two month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter, Because

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Speaker 6: older couples are much more safe when they are in

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Speaker 6: contact with their families. Were their bills that weren't paid?

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Speaker 6: Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver

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Speaker 6: or somebody who came in and out of the house.

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Speaker 6: Was there an accountant who paid their bills?

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Speaker 1: How was their food prepared?

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Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Jessica Finn joining us,

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Speaker 2: a chief investigative reporter with the US SON.

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Speaker 1: I get it.

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Speaker 2: If it's not suicide and it's not natural cause, then

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Speaker 2: naturally people are going to look at the possibility of murder,

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Speaker 2: and so far law enforcement is calling it suspicious. I mean, Jessica, listen.

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Speaker 8: To this from the search warm two green and color

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Speaker 8: cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over

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Speaker 8: the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a

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Speaker 8: twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and miss

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Speaker 8: Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator.

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Speaker 8: An autopsy was performed initial findings noted no external trauma

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Speaker 8: to either individual. The manner and cause of death has

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Speaker 8: not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and

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Speaker 8: toxicology reports are pending.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma.

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Speaker 2: That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size

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Speaker 2: of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.

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Speaker 1: Correct. Correct.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no

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Speaker 7: clear trauma to the body. What we do know is

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Speaker 7: that investigator has found several types of pill, thyroid medication,

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Speaker 7: blood pressure medication, and over the counter.

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Speaker 4: Tile and all.

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Speaker 7: One of the things that's being reported right now from

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Speaker 7: the New York Times is that the pills that were

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Speaker 7: found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't

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Speaker 7: quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those

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Speaker 7: pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were. And

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Speaker 7: we know that these two were found in separate rooms.

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Speaker 7: Gene appeared to have been found in what would be

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Speaker 7: the homes and mudroom, with his cane nearby and his

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Speaker 7: sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen,

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Speaker 7: whereas She's appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over

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Speaker 7: a space heater on her way down in the bathroom.

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Speaker 7: But we just don't have the answer as yet. We

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Speaker 7: don't understand why both of these people were found dead.

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Speaker 7: And definitely it appears that they were found they had

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Speaker 7: passed at least in the last couple of weeks, because

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Speaker 7: people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Doctor William Moroney joining us for now Medical examiner lightning

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Speaker 2: around this is a yes, no, Can you die of

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Speaker 2: a thyroid overdose thyroid medicine?

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Speaker 12: Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?

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Speaker 2: Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of

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Speaker 2: an od on? Blood pressure mads?

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Speaker 12: That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium

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Speaker 12: channel blocker. One of the things it does is it

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Speaker 12: slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it

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Speaker 12: would stop your heart.

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Speaker 1: But wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.

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Speaker 12: No, Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things

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Speaker 12: like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal

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Speaker 12: drugs they looked at. They might have to send out

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Speaker 12: dilthiasm toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason

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Speaker 12: that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I

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Speaker 12: don't know that any medical examiner can give you a

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Speaker 12: fast level of del tiasm levels. Diacetyl dl tiism would

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Speaker 12: be the metabolite, and you'd look at both of them

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Speaker 12: to see if it was an acute like took a

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Speaker 12: handful of and died, or whether we were just taking

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Speaker 12: too much. You've forgotten it slowed your heart rate. It's

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Speaker 12: a calcium channel blocker.

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Speaker 1: I would require.

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Speaker 2: But Joshua Ritter joining me, a high profile criminal defense

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Speaker 2: attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua,

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Speaker 2: it's not working. Everything he just said Ronie is correct,

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Speaker 2: but you would have to assume that she the wife, Betsy,

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Speaker 2: decided to o D on BP blood pressure appeals. Then

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Speaker 2: he oded on blood pressure peals in a different area,

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Speaker 2: fully closed, looking like he was about to walk out

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Speaker 2: the door, and the dog they forest fed the.

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Speaker 1: Dog blood pressure medication.

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Speaker 2: I'm just it doesn't fit this scenario, josh rit Er,

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Speaker 2: I understand why the murder theories are taking root.

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Speaker 13: No, absolutely none of it seems to add up because

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Speaker 13: you have two people who seem to have collapsed where

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Speaker 13: they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like

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Speaker 13: they were. One of them was lying in bed or

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Speaker 13: sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been

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Speaker 13: standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found

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Speaker 13: where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe

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Speaker 13: to assume in surmise that it happened close in time

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Speaker 13: to each other, because neither one of them called nine

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Speaker 13: to one one for assistance on the other person. So

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Speaker 13: you've got to assume you've now got two people who

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Speaker 13: collapse where they stood close in time to each other,

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Speaker 13: if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious.

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Speaker 13: You have to look into that. I think you have

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Speaker 13: to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting search warrants,

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Speaker 13: starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions,

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Speaker 13: because do these types of things happen where two people

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Speaker 13: might collapse close in time to each other. I'm sure

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00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 13: that they may have happened before in the past, But

440
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 13: to assume that that's exactly what happened here and it

441
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 13: was either like you said, natural causes or or some

442
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 13: sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at

443
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 13: this point in the investigation.

444
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 3: Hello, money, I think we just found to a one

445
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 3: defase person inside the house. But this year there's no address.

446
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 4: I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.

447
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait for you, please, And.

448
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 4: Somebody's really quick, are you with a pais now? Yeah?

449
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 4: Their property. There's no address here.

450
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 5: So I have to meet the denialists or the police

451
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 5: whoever down at the gatehouse.

452
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,239
Speaker 3: I'll bring them up here.

453
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 5: Know you're like, all, no, they're not moving.

454
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: Just bring nobody up here really quick, And in the

455
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: less hours we learn obvious possible cause of death has

456
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: been ruled out.

457
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 8: Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation

458
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 8: was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his

459
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 8: nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.

460
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event?

461
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.

462
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 12: The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His

463
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 12: heart was monitored by the pacemaker. And what that says

464
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 12: to me? Once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes,

465
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 12: but the heart no longer responds. There is no event

466
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 12: that the heart is responding to, and they see when

467
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 12: that is. So that would be like the traditional all

468
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 12: American heart attack happened on that day, and after that event,

469
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 12: the heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's

470
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 12: talking about.

471
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute.

472
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: Cheryl, my first thought was carbon.

473
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: Monoxide, but then when I heard the door was a jar,

474
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 2: in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide.

475
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: And the fact that the dog is dead too, to me,

476
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: that rules out accident.

477
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 2: Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an

478
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died,

479
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: and then the dog had an accident and died.

480
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 10: No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation

481
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 10: is look at what is there and what's not there.

482
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 10: Some of the things that aren't there, there's no blood,

483
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 10: there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of

484
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 10: a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.

485
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 10: Most importantly, there was.

486
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 12: Not a now one one call that came from.

487
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 10: Inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does

488
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 10: seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to go back

489
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 10: to patterns.

490
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 7: You have two.

491
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 10: Animals that were not in a crate that survives. Why

492
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 10: was the one in the crate. People that are close

493
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 10: to them may be able to tell law enforcement the

494
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 10: German Shepherd is put in the crate. When you know,

495
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 10: mister Hackman goes for a walk, he had sunglasses and.

496
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: A cane and was dressed. Perhaps he was.

497
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 10: Headed outside when either he fail or whatever occurred happened.

498
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 10: But that's the kind of thing you're going to run

499
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 10: into is two almost parallel investigations. You're going to look

500
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 10: at what happened to mister Hackman and what happened to

501
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 10: his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations there.

502
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: You're absolutely correct, two separate investigations. And where're learning, according

503
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first,

504
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: which could be critical into solving the mystery of Gene

505
00:29:59,160 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: Heickman's death.

506
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 8: Listen, that's a very hard thing to determine. Even with

507
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 8: the assistance of Omi. We asked that question because that's

508
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 8: a question that we want answered. That's a very hard

509
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 8: determination to make, and I don't think even Ohmi could

510
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 8: make that determination based on the initial autopsy.

511
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, it's.

512
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 12: Impossible, you know what time he died, you don't have

513
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 12: a timeline for when she died and how it happened

514
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 12: two separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first

515
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 12: unless there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.

516
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute, hold on morony.

517
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly

518
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.

519
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 12: It would have to be a good full half day

520
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 12: or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours,

521
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 12: But if it was like a full half.

522
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: Day before, crime stores with Nancy Grace, Dude, Jessica Finn

523
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: joining us seeing your vestcative reporter us son, where were

524
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: the other two dogs?

525
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 4: Do we know?

526
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 12: You know?

527
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 7: From the nine to one one calls, we hear the

528
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 7: dogs barking in the background. We're, of course assuming that

529
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 7: those were the hackman's dogs. We don't know where they

530
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 7: were found.

531
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: But the way the nine on one calls play out,

532
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: it sounds.

533
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 7: Like they're just kind of roaming around on the property.

534
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 7: It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems

535
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 7: like they're kind of like free wheeling outside. From just

536
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 7: from the way the ninmal one calls are the way

537
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 7: that echoing of the dogs barking in the background can

538
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 7: be heard.

539
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: Now we hear the Santa Fe County share of Adam

540
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: and Dooza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline again.

541
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 8: That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and

542
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 8: try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be

543
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 8: analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos

544
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 8: in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together.

545
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 8: One of the things is in an investigation is we

546
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 8: tried a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens,

547
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 8: and that gives us a lot of information. But in

548
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 8: this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline.

549
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 8: We're doing a timeline from the time of death and

550
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 8: the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start

551
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 8: working our way backwards. We're going to do both and

552
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 8: then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to

553
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 8: both the individuals.

554
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean?

555
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they

556
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google?

557
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: When's the last time they logged in or made a

558
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: phone call? Not only that when was the last time

559
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: people call them and they didn't pick up. There's more

560
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: too it, Cheryl McCollum, think.

561
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: Back, dare I bring his name up?

562
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case

563
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's

564
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: how the state finally proved Murdod guilty of double murder

565
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul.

566
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the

567
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: nav system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So

568
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: what do you make of the fact that they're making

569
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: a reverse timeline, Cheryl? And also they have seies pursua

570
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: to Warren. Of course their daytime planners. What does that

571
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: tell you they're looking at So.

572
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 10: They're going to take that planner and they're going to

573
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 10: cross check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointments,

574
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 10: any future event they had that the person that actually

575
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 10: found them was somebody owned the property doing work that

576
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 10: would be in their planner. So they're going to look

577
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 10: at all that to make sure everything lines up and

578
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 10: coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing. The

579
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 10: weeks before in what they had planned week after.

580
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on

581
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 2: different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases,

582
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: and I look at planners to determine did they have

583
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: plans in the future. In other words, when people have

584
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If

585
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: they're looking forward to something like my twins spring break.

586
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to that. Okay, that's just an example.

587
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look

588
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: to see who's the last person there the day that

589
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was

590
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking

591
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: at the planner.

592
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: Josh.

593
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 13: Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it.

594
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 13: And to your point too, are there events, are there

595
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 13: appointments in the future, and if so, does that show

596
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 13: planning for the future, which you might be able to

597
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 13: rule that suicide. But did they missappointments that know one

598
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 13: noticed and should those people have noticed? Do they have

599
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 13: an appointment with someone and that person they didn't meet

600
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 13: that appointment with that person, and that person didn't alert

601
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 13: anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they

602
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 13: missed this event. So I think they the planner can

603
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 13: be a treasure tros of information as far as they're

604
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 13: not only their mundane day to day life, but also

605
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 13: the events that they had planned before and after and

606
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 13: what that might provide some insight into this investigation.

607
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 8: So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and Miss

608
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 8: aracauas regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that

609
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 8: they were very private individuals and a very private family.

610
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 8: There is no surveillance as we know of right now

611
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 8: in the interior of the residence or the exterior of

612
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 8: the residence that is going to help us determine our

613
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 8: time nine or events that happened.

614
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: Now was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking Mendoza, What does

615
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: that mean to me? No surveillance, No surveillance, And let

616
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum. There's no home surveillance in

617
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: the home of a multi time.

618
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: Oscar winner Rick, No surveillance.

619
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding.

620
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge

621
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide

622
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autopsy

623
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's

624
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's

625
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide

626
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: in different rooms with no suicide note falling like that,

627
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on,

628
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: doctor William Moroney, the method and assessment of suicide is

629
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: not consistent with the way these bodies were found.

630
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 12: No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It

631
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 12: doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken

632
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 12: time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They

633
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 12: look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give

634
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 12: you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that

635
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 12: usually follows treatment resistent depression. That we don't have any

636
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 12: sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.

637
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the us son.

638
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great,

639
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: doing pilates and yoga multiple times a week. They were

640
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: going out to dinner with friends. Nothing suggests to suicide.

641
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 7: Yeah, Gene and his wife really took care of their health.

642
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 7: They were really active in the community. She made sure

643
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 7: that he was in top notch shape. He was doing

644
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 7: plot is, like you said, staying fit. The whole investigation

645
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 7: gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean,

646
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 7: for both of these people to have died and they

647
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 7: looked like they dropped where they were standing in two

648
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 7: separate places in the home, you know, we can't figure

649
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 7: out whether this was what kind of foul play that

650
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 7: the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah, it

651
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 7: certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these people

652
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 7: were in distress together and they were very much in

653
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 7: love from what we've heard.

654
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 8: No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication

655
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 8: that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body.

656
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 8: I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know,

657
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 8: injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would

658
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 8: have been discovered by that pathologist. So I'm going to

659
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 8: say that they weren't so too.

660
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, there's no indication this was an accident.

661
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: You just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that, and Plus,

662
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: if one had an accident, what the other has an

663
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: accident and the dog has an accident. That doesn't make sense.

664
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: We're not getting that the dogs starved, nothing like that.

665
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide.

666
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.

667
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 6: I don't see suicide either, And that's why I asked earlier,

668
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 6: was that there's some catastrophic event looming in their lives

669
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 6: which would would make them want not want to live.

670
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 6: You know, Nancy, there's an untold story here that I'm

671
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 6: very curious about, and that is, even though he was

672
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 6: well and doing pilates and taking walks, had she become

673
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 6: his caregiver. I do to treat couples in my practice

674
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 6: where one partner is ill and the other one is

675
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 6: the caregiver, and especially when it's a family member, they

676
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 6: typically refuse respite care, meaning they don't want other people.

677
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 12: To come and help.

678
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 6: They want to provide the primary care because they love

679
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 6: their family member, and the caregiver's health typically breaks down

680
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 6: over time. In fact, statistically we know that there's a

681
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 6: greater life likelihood of a caregiver dying. We maturely when

682
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 6: they are taking care of a family member. So had

683
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 6: her health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's

684
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 6: records and also looking at that day planner and seeing

685
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 6: how many appointments was she going to, how many appointments

686
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 6: was was she taking him?

687
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 2: Dr Bethany, everything you're saying is correct. However, friends that

688
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 2: just just went out with them say that they were happy, healthy,

689
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: doing really well, giving no sign that his wife, Betsy

690
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: was on the decline. As a matter of fact, she

691
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: had devoted herself to him. I'm just not seeing suicide, So,

692
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: Doctor William Roney, there are only so many CODs cause

693
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: of death. You've got suicide ruled out, there's no trauma,

694
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: there's no OD. You've got carbon monoxide ruled out here,

695
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: the sheriff ruling out accident. All that's left is what murder,

696
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: homicide and unexplained.

697
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 12: Yes, number one homicide, number two, accident, number three natural,

698
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 12: number four suicide, and number five would be indetermined. That's

699
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 12: our five pauses.

700
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.