Speaker 1: The number one true crime podcast is back. The bodies
Speaker 1: of eight family members were discovered in Pike County, Ohio.
Speaker 1: Season four of The Pikes And Massacre the trials begin,
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the crime scenes. Accused murderer George
Speaker 1: Wagner faces a judge and jury. This is legitimately the
Speaker 1: biggest murder trial in the state of Ohio's history. They're
Speaker 1: going to be some surprised at this trial. His mother
Speaker 1: and youngest brother are said to testify against him. It
Speaker 1: is extremely rare for family to testify against family. Will
Speaker 1: he face the death penalty they killed the mother of
Speaker 1: the girl they were trying to get custody up. Or
Speaker 1: will he walk free? I think the defense knows something
Speaker 1: that we don't know. We're there tracking the case in
Speaker 1: real time. I don't think I've ever seen photo zach
Speaker 1: graphic before. Join the nearly thirty million listeners as the
Speaker 1: mystery unfolds. When a jury sees a human bodies and
Speaker 1: ripped shreds, they want their pound flesh. This is the
Speaker 1: Pipdon Massacre. Trials begin season four, episode one on the
Speaker 1: eve of I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KAT
Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. After following this
Speaker 1: case for years, trials are officially beginning in Ohio's largest
Speaker 1: criminal investigation in the state's history. It's been more than
Speaker 1: six years since the events of April twenty first, twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: when eight family members were shot dead in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night, some were sleeping and others. Based on
Speaker 1: crime scene evidence, their final moments are unimaginable. It's important
Speaker 1: to note that George Wagner, the fourth currently on trial,
Speaker 1: and his father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, have
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Prosecutors say the Wagner
Speaker 1: family planned the killing for months. I don't know that
Speaker 1: people can fully fathom what went on in those mobile homes,
Speaker 1: But when the full force of that hits the most
Speaker 1: important people in the room, which are going to be
Speaker 1: those jurors, it's going to reverberate. Two and a half
Speaker 1: years later, four members of a prominent local family who
Speaker 1: knew the victims very well, were arrested and charged with
Speaker 1: capital murder. This was planned and plotted four different homes
Speaker 1: where these family members were slaughtered, absolutely slaughtered, and for
Speaker 1: this family, God and when this happened. Think about this
Speaker 1: shock and confusion. Who takes out a whole family and
Speaker 1: why would you do that? Matriarch Angela Wagner, her husband Billy,
Speaker 1: and their two sons in their early twenties, Jake and
Speaker 1: George were the arrested parties. Since then, Anchela Wagner and
Speaker 1: her youngest son Jake have taken plea agreements in exchange
Speaker 1: for testifying against George and Billy Wagner. We've spent years
Speaker 1: chasing clues trying to unpack the mystery of what happened
Speaker 1: that night. Since we've been following the Pikes and Masker
Speaker 1: for so many years, Stephanie and I decided the only
Speaker 1: way to make sure we got the whole story was
Speaker 1: to get in that quart room for the trial. Here's
Speaker 1: Stephanie as this trial finally approaches, there are a lot
Speaker 1: of questions that we still don't have answers to and
Speaker 1: are desperate to know more about. It was noted in
Speaker 1: one of the motions that accused older brother George Wagner,
Speaker 1: who is the one standing trial, only joined the murdering
Speaker 1: spree very last minute that fateful night, and we don't
Speaker 1: understand why. It says in the motion that he was
Speaker 1: only going to protect his younger brother, Jake Wagner, from
Speaker 1: his father. What does that even mean. I also want
Speaker 1: to know if he accused mother, Angela Wager, was actually
Speaker 1: at four murder locations. In her plea deal, she claims
Speaker 1: that she was quote home babysitting, but previous reports say otherwise.
Speaker 1: She also has a burglary charge, which would say perhaps
Speaker 1: she was at the location before or after the murders.
Speaker 1: It's yet unclear. And what a showdown in the courtroom.
Speaker 1: This is actually going to be think about it for
Speaker 1: the very first time in years. Angela Wagner, the accused mother,
Speaker 1: and the youngest brother, Jake Wagner, are going to face off.
Speaker 1: They're going to see George in the courtroom. They're gonna
Speaker 1: lock eyes, and that's going to seal his fate. We
Speaker 1: desperately want to be there for that. The courtroom where
Speaker 1: the Wagner's fate will be decided is in the Pike
Speaker 1: County Courthouse. It's a three story red brick federal style
Speaker 1: building in the middle of Waverley, Ohio, about twenty miles
Speaker 1: northeast of where the murders took place. It looks exactly
Speaker 1: like you would imagine a medium sized Midwest county courthouse
Speaker 1: to look. The anticipation is extremely high. I've been involved
Speaker 1: in this in this area Southwest Ohio trial work for years,
Speaker 1: and I've never seen anything like it. Like every other
Speaker 1: step in this case, from the crime scene itself, through
Speaker 1: the investigation and shot and guilty verdicts, the word everyone
Speaker 1: uses is unprecedented. The fact that it's holding true even
Speaker 1: leading up to the actual trial maybe shouldn't feel surprising,
Speaker 1: but it has been a pretty bumpy, unexpected start. Initially,
Speaker 1: opening statements were slated to begin on Tuesday, September sixth,
Speaker 1: the day after Labor Day. We booked a trip to
Speaker 1: Pike County, only to have to cancel it due to
Speaker 1: the delays. Jeff spoke with reporter James Pilcher about how
Speaker 1: local media was getting set up to cover the trial.
Speaker 1: Tell me, so you're in Pike County right now or
Speaker 1: where are you? I'm actually in the first floor of
Speaker 1: the courtroom the courthouse, sitting right below the courtroom in
Speaker 1: the media room. I'm going to be spending a lot
Speaker 1: of time here over the next four weeks, five weeks,
Speaker 1: six weeks, and so what's the feeling like in the
Speaker 1: courthouse and around the courthouse. Well, today it was a
Speaker 1: lot of hustle and bustled with that. There were a
Speaker 1: couple other TV stations. We're here dropping off their equipment.
Speaker 1: We're installing all of our stuff, getting everything set up.
Speaker 1: Do you think that Waverley Courthouse is ready for a
Speaker 1: trial of this magnitude they're trying. They've actually installed higher
Speaker 1: speed internet, They've installed free Wi Fi for us here
Speaker 1: in the media room. I think there are some you know,
Speaker 1: there's some businesses that are actually looking forward to it
Speaker 1: because there's gonna be so many people in from out
Speaker 1: of town as part of this. Over the past year,
Speaker 1: we've gotten glimpses of the prosecution strategy based on arguments
Speaker 1: made by lead attorney Angie Kneppa during pre trial motions.
Speaker 1: It seems like they will attempt to paint a picture
Speaker 1: of a tight knit family where everyone was in on
Speaker 1: the plot. The defense's main argument is that the family
Speaker 1: isn't on trial here, George Wagner is, and that he
Speaker 1: didn't actually kill anyone that night. How does defense get
Speaker 1: out from underneath the legal standard of aggravated murder, which
Speaker 1: states in Ohio you don't have to pull the trigger
Speaker 1: to be convicted of murder if you help plan it,
Speaker 1: and if you help cover it up, and if you
Speaker 1: helped execute it. So that's going to be the very
Speaker 1: big challenge, and I'm very interested to see what the
Speaker 1: defense says. The wild card is what Jake and Angela
Speaker 1: may say while on the stand. They have not seen
Speaker 1: each other since being arrested in twenty eighteen. How common
Speaker 1: is that for family to testify against family in a
Speaker 1: case like this. It is extremely, extremely rare for family
Speaker 1: to testify against family. Mike Allen is a legal analyst
Speaker 1: who's worked on the defense and prosecution sides, and is
Speaker 1: also a former judge. Maybe I've seen it two or
Speaker 1: three times in all the years I've been doing it,
Speaker 1: and never, never, on a case of this, magnan dude.
Speaker 1: It's like two family members against two other family members,
Speaker 1: and this is a family that is reportedly extremely close.
Speaker 1: That's going to be something to see because it just
Speaker 1: doesn't happen very often. We can assume that what Jake
Speaker 1: and Angela say about George is not going to be favorable.
Speaker 1: They're not going to say that he didn't do anything
Speaker 1: wrong right, quite the opposite exactly. I mean, yeah, the
Speaker 1: prosecutor is not going to put them up on the
Speaker 1: stand for them to testify. How wonderful you know, George
Speaker 1: is ain't gonna happen. They're not gonna be able to
Speaker 1: play around up there and play footsie with the prosecutor.
Speaker 1: I mean, they have to testify, truthfully. Can you talk
Speaker 1: to us about what the possible end results are for George?
Speaker 1: Could he walk? Are there lesser charges or is it
Speaker 1: guilty on all? What are the options? Here are the
Speaker 1: options for George? I mean, obviously one of the options
Speaker 1: is a far him not guilty to the aggravated murder.
Speaker 1: But even if that were to happen, he's still stuck
Speaker 1: with four counts of aggravated burglary, three counts of tampering
Speaker 1: with evidence, two counts of unlawful possession of dangerous ordinance,
Speaker 1: single counts of conspiracy, forgery, unauthorized use of a computer
Speaker 1: or telecommunications wire. So even if he's not convicted of
Speaker 1: the homicides, there is a lot here that can put
Speaker 1: him away for a lot of years. Could all of
Speaker 1: those together equal a life sentence or is that totally unknowable? Oh? No,
Speaker 1: it could he easily equal life sentence. Meanwhile, jury selection,
Speaker 1: which began on August eighth, is underway. The first hurdle
Speaker 1: is finding an impartial jury in a small town for
Speaker 1: the largest case in the history of Ohio. Here's retired
Speaker 1: prosecutor and Flanagan. You have to usually wait until you
Speaker 1: start to see the jury and see if you can't
Speaker 1: come up with a number of people who indicate they
Speaker 1: can be fair and impartial. But it doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: if they've had some information come through its will they
Speaker 1: listen to the evidence and the rulings and the matters
Speaker 1: that have been brought to them in the courtroom, set
Speaker 1: aside anything else they might have heard, and then make
Speaker 1: the decision fairly and honestly for both sides. I always
Speaker 1: talk to a jury and say, you know, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, you want to go home, and
Speaker 1: you want to be safe in your own heart and
Speaker 1: mind that you have only done what you've been asked
Speaker 1: to do because you want to go home and be
Speaker 1: able to sleep tonight. To find a jury, Pike County
Speaker 1: sent about a thousand questionnaires to locals asking for volunteers.
Speaker 1: Two hundred people responded, and the court is in the
Speaker 1: process of whittling them down. Seventy perspective death qualified jurors
Speaker 1: reported to the Pike County Courthouse. This is where final
Speaker 1: jury selection is beginning. Death qualified means it's already been
Speaker 1: determined that these jurors are willing to implement the death
Speaker 1: penalty if it's warranted. Local crime reporter Anjeanette Levy has
Speaker 1: been our Eyes and Ears on the ground in Ohio
Speaker 1: for several seasons of the podcast. I spoke with Anjeanette
Speaker 1: about what it's been like. During the week preceding the trial,
Speaker 1: seventy death qualified jurors showed up at the Pike County Courthouse.
Speaker 1: Fifty one of them were women and nineteen of them
Speaker 1: were men, And so George Wagner, the Force attorneys, they
Speaker 1: filed a motion saying, this whole panel, the whole veneer
Speaker 1: should be stricken because it's too many women, and there
Speaker 1: were working class jurors who were excluded for financial hardship
Speaker 1: and they shouldn't have been. So that's discriminatory, and so
Speaker 1: they thought, you know, we should start over with the
Speaker 1: whole thing. Well, the judge said, no, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: and denied the motion. So jury selection continued and we
Speaker 1: were all wondering whether or not they'd be able to
Speaker 1: really seat this jury, and they were able to do it.
Speaker 1: So the jury consists of nine women and three men,
Speaker 1: and then the panel of six alternates, and that's five
Speaker 1: women and one man. So you have majority women who
Speaker 1: will be hearing this case. Wow, with having so many women,
Speaker 1: that's unusual, right, you know, I don't know if it's unusual.
Speaker 1: I think we've seen trials like this in the past
Speaker 1: where it's waited one way or the other. I covered
Speaker 1: the Johnny Depp trial in Virginia. Different trial, obviously a
Speaker 1: civil case, a defamation case, but the majority of the
Speaker 1: jurors were men on the panel. Sometimes that's just how
Speaker 1: it shakes out. We're going to take a break. We'll
Speaker 1: be back in a moment with the jury chosen. In
Speaker 1: less than a week before the trial is said to begin,
Speaker 1: Presiding Judge Daring drops a bombshell on the media. Late today,
Speaker 1: Judge Randy Deering issued his final rules on what can
Speaker 1: and can't be shown on camera or online. Judge Dearring
Speaker 1: is going to allow each witness to opt out of
Speaker 1: being photographed or recorded that includes any audio of their testimony.
Speaker 1: So if they choose witnesses can only be seen or
Speaker 1: heard by people inside the courtroom. The judge will also
Speaker 1: extend that right to the Wagner's younger brother Jake, and
Speaker 1: his mother Angela when they testify for the prosecution. When
Speaker 1: the witness comes to the stand, he's going to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: the right not to be shown on television, and then
Speaker 1: we have to turn the camera off, and he's going
Speaker 1: to do that. Furbu single witness. Why you know, it's
Speaker 1: going to be very difficult if they all say no,
Speaker 1: and we still haven't gotten any clarification and whether or
Speaker 1: not we can at least play the audio of their voice.
Speaker 1: We're still kind of up in the air and when
Speaker 1: this whole thing is going to start, how we can
Speaker 1: cover it all of that. Here's reporter and Jeanette Levy
Speaker 1: speaking with producer Chris Graves. In the state of Ohio,
Speaker 1: witnesses can opt out of being videotaped recorded in any way.
Speaker 1: So we had to file something, so we're probably going
Speaker 1: to have it hearing next week. If they deny this
Speaker 1: motion that you guys are filing, then everyone gets the
Speaker 1: option to turn down being recorded. Correct, they have the
Speaker 1: option anyway? What We're more concerned about is Jake and
Speaker 1: Angela being on camera. We don't want them to be
Speaker 1: able to opt out, and any other witnesses who want
Speaker 1: don't want to be photographed. We want the right to
Speaker 1: record at least their audio. You know, there may be
Speaker 1: lay witnesses who are fearful of testifying, and that's understandable,
Speaker 1: but we want to at least be able to hear
Speaker 1: what they're saying. We all pitched in, like all four
Speaker 1: Cincinnati TV stations to Cincinnati Inquire, lawng Crime, and Court TV.
Speaker 1: We all are represented by the same lawyer, Is it yeah?
Speaker 1: Jack Rener. Media lawyer Jack Griner represented Local twelve and
Speaker 1: several other outlets in the effort to get better access
Speaker 1: to the trial. On his website, Grinder calls himself a
Speaker 1: reporter's lawyer and is a well known champion for First
Speaker 1: Amendment rights. We've spoken about him before. He's the same
Speaker 1: attorney who sued for access to the autopsies in this case.
Speaker 1: We had hoped that we get a ruling that would
Speaker 1: really go towards maximizing the public stability to participate in
Speaker 1: this trial, at least in the sense of observing it.
Speaker 1: People can come to the courtroom, but for many people
Speaker 1: that's not possible. With George Wagner the fourth facing twenty
Speaker 1: two counts, there's going to be a lot of evidence
Speaker 1: to go through point by point. Also, since there has
Speaker 1: been so much that's been protected and redacted in the autopsies,
Speaker 1: this will also be our first opportunity to see the
Speaker 1: crime scene photos to find out exactly what occurred that night.
Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie. Those are going to tell a very specific story.
Speaker 1: I just want to see the accused, Billy Wagner in
Speaker 1: person and see how his demeanor is. I mean, think
Speaker 1: about it. It's been alleged that Billy Wagner, George Wagner,
Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner all attended the funerals of people who
Speaker 1: they murdered. I mean, can you imagine the level of
Speaker 1: composure that must take and what kind of psychopaths actually
Speaker 1: attend the funeral and pretend to be mourning the people
Speaker 1: they actually murdered. This will also be the time when
Speaker 1: we find out if, indeed these eight murders the sole
Speaker 1: motive behind them was for custody of the daughter, who
Speaker 1: was shared between confirmed murderer Jake Wagner and the victim
Speaker 1: Hannah May Rodin or were many other things at play,
Speaker 1: and more importantly, God willing the Rodens, the Gillies, and
Speaker 1: the Manly family that they'll finally get some justice as
Speaker 1: the child gets closer. There is another surprising development. The
Speaker 1: jury boarded a school bus and then they were taken
Speaker 1: to some of the remote locations where the crime scenes
Speaker 1: actually happened. In both Piketon and Reardon, Ohio. Jurors visited
Speaker 1: all four crime scenes, looking closely at run down buildings
Speaker 1: now partially covered in overgrowth and the vacant ground where
Speaker 1: the road and mobile homes once sat. But a reminder
Speaker 1: that the jury view was not to be considered as
Speaker 1: evidence for the jurors. Rather, it's to give them a
Speaker 1: better understanding of the arguments here and really kind of
Speaker 1: give them a lay of the land, if you will.
Speaker 1: And Neette Levy and the rest of the media are
Speaker 1: allowed to follow the school bus full of jurors and
Speaker 1: via the proceedings from a distance. Chris Graves and I
Speaker 1: spoke with her about this. We followed along as the
Speaker 1: school bus in the motorcade went around and we went
Speaker 1: to all these sites from nine thirty in the morning,
Speaker 1: till about seven at night. We also went to places
Speaker 1: points of interest and drove around a lot of roads
Speaker 1: where you know, they determined it was like the routes
Speaker 1: they said that the Wagner strove that night. Did they
Speaker 1: show them in the order that they thought they had
Speaker 1: been killed? We believe. So it started out at Chris's house,
Speaker 1: Chris Senior. Then they walked a path down to Frankie
Speaker 1: Roden's house that he shared with Hannah Gilly, and then
Speaker 1: they went down to Dana Roden's home but didn't stop.
Speaker 1: So it was very interesting. It makes you think, did
Speaker 1: they start at Chris Senior's, then they went down to Frankie's,
Speaker 1: they turn around, they see that, you know, whatever's going
Speaker 1: on at Dana's house. Maybe they didn't stop. Maybe they
Speaker 1: went down to candets and came back. We don't know
Speaker 1: that for certain, but it's certainly a possibility because there
Speaker 1: was a discussion that Dana had worked at double shift
Speaker 1: that night and worked later than anticipated. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: is the implication potentially with what you just said, that
Speaker 1: they knew she was working a double shift and therefore
Speaker 1: didn't want to go nor as she wouldn't be there.
Speaker 1: That was the conclusion we were drawing. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we were right, but it seemed strange that they would
Speaker 1: drive down to Dana's and not get out when you're
Speaker 1: on the same road. Why why do that? I don't
Speaker 1: recall a case where the jurors and this includes the
Speaker 1: people the twelve and paneled and then the alternates are
Speaker 1: loaded up in a school bus and driven out to
Speaker 1: these locations where these events took place. Here's forensic death
Speaker 1: investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. You think about, you know, as
Speaker 1: the crew is moving down the road and they've essentially
Speaker 1: wiped out one portion of the family, are they talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, what they're going to do next on Unihale Road?
Speaker 1: And that kind of puts it in perspective at that moment, Tom,
Speaker 1: does the jury have a sense of that was the
Speaker 1: prosecutor or the detectives board that school bus is kind
Speaker 1: of acting like a tour guide, if you will, and
Speaker 1: telling them it was at this point that they picked
Speaker 1: up the car. It was they we believe that they
Speaker 1: traveled in this direction and you're getting an idea of
Speaker 1: this pace and you you contemplate for a moment what
Speaker 1: these folks in the vehicle or we're talking about doing
Speaker 1: and what they did, And I think that that's that's
Speaker 1: certainly a note that the prosecutors want to drop into
Speaker 1: the ears of the jury members all of these sorts
Speaker 1: of little details like that, which can I think you know,
Speaker 1: after this trial, these trials are said done. This is
Speaker 1: something that will be studied for years to come. This
Speaker 1: Pike County Sheriff Impound lot is a key stop on
Speaker 1: the jury view. Remember, the rodents were found dead inside
Speaker 1: their mobile homes and camper and this lot is where
Speaker 1: those vehicles were hauled and are still being helped today.
Speaker 1: They took them to the impound lot at the Sheriff's office,
Speaker 1: where the trailers are now stored and where the pickup
Speaker 1: truck that we believed said they purchased to commit the
Speaker 1: murders is stored. They were taken to ten locations over
Speaker 1: two days. To our knowledge, they were not taken into
Speaker 1: the actual trailers. We were not permitted to go into
Speaker 1: the actual structure where those trailers are housed. So we
Speaker 1: should have been allowed in there. It's public property, and
Speaker 1: according to the precedent, even if it was private property,
Speaker 1: we should be allowed to go on it. But they
Speaker 1: kept us out. Stephanie and I have been too piked
Speaker 1: in numerous times over the past few years, but this
Speaker 1: time the stakes felled higher. The last time you and
Speaker 1: I were here, it was snowing and raining and dark
Speaker 1: and dreary and so cold, And now it's sunny and bright,
Speaker 1: and it definitely has a different feeling. We had to
Speaker 1: the courthouse to meet up with reporter James Pilcher to
Speaker 1: find out the latest about media access. The most surprising
Speaker 1: thing about this whole enterprise is how quickly the judge
Speaker 1: turned from being media friendly to all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: the most restrictive trial however, any of us have ever
Speaker 1: had to deal with. Ever. Why do you think we
Speaker 1: don't know why? We've asked, why, we've asked for a
Speaker 1: meeting with the judge, we've gotten no answer. Technically, if
Speaker 1: you're a city official, you work for the city. So
Speaker 1: if the city is you know, air quote, standing sitting
Speaker 1: jury and watching and wanting to see how taxpayer dollars
Speaker 1: are getting spent for me, it's more of a transparency
Speaker 1: public record. This is the most complex, most important murder
Speaker 1: trial in the history of the state, and yet nobody
Speaker 1: can watch it. I don't know unless we want to
Speaker 1: push it to another appeals court or the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: There's nothing we can do. Like I kind of get
Speaker 1: it for retribution purposes if you're somebody who's speaking out
Speaker 1: against the accused wagoners and you're fearing that someone's going
Speaker 1: to come put a hit on you. On Friday, they
Speaker 1: started erecting a fence around the parking lot of the
Speaker 1: courthouse and the entire courthouse, a chain link fence. We
Speaker 1: had ever seen that before. This is an old, old courthouse,
Speaker 1: and George Wagner has to be brought into the courthouse
Speaker 1: from the outside. There isn't an underground tunnel or any
Speaker 1: other type of entrance, so they've erected defense. Is that
Speaker 1: concern for his safety? I would assume it's a safety issue.
Speaker 1: They don't want people just kind of walking through there
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be in there. That's my interpretation of why
Speaker 1: they did that. Hopefully we can get cameras in there,
Speaker 1: that's really the goal. Yeah, right now, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Man kind of looks a little bit shaky. What do
Speaker 1: you think the feeling is for the prosecution, for the
Speaker 1: defense for everyone in Pike County right now? You know,
Speaker 1: any time before trial, you get butterflies, no matter how
Speaker 1: many of them that you've done before, you get butterflies.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. On the morning of
Speaker 1: the first day of trial, the media is alerted to
Speaker 1: another development. Opening statements were expected and slated for today,
Speaker 1: but there has been a delay. We were supposed to
Speaker 1: be an opening statements right now that we got word
Speaker 1: that somebody involved with the trial has become ill and
Speaker 1: needs some time to recover. It's a temporary setback in
Speaker 1: a process that has taken over six years to begin.
Speaker 1: As of right now, we're planning for opening statements on
Speaker 1: September twelfth. That's next Monday. September eleventh is a date
Speaker 1: etched on the consciousness of every American today, at least
Speaker 1: this year. In Southeast Ohio. It's the day before the
Speaker 1: biggest trial in the history of the state. We're on
Speaker 1: the leave of this and these lawyers have been eating, sleeping,
Speaker 1: livingness for months now, and I think we're starting to see,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly what each side is going to be presenting.
Speaker 1: James Pilcher. For me, it's a culmination of paying attention
Speaker 1: to this for the last two and a half years.
Speaker 1: I'm glad it's actually happening. There were some doubt in
Speaker 1: my mind as to whether or not it actually ever
Speaker 1: would happen. I'm really really interested to hear the opening
Speaker 1: statements from the prosecution, because I think they're going to
Speaker 1: lay out their face and start talking specifically about the
Speaker 1: evidence that they have. But I think the things that
Speaker 1: we're going to look for are how does the defense
Speaker 1: present George as a quote unquote innocent bystander on all this?
Speaker 1: And one of the things we've heard is that potentially
Speaker 1: George only went along to keep Billy from killing Jake.
Speaker 1: If the evidence shows you was there, if the evidence
Speaker 1: and the wire taps, and they have recordings of him
Speaker 1: talking about this, which apparently they do, how does he
Speaker 1: get out from underneath the aggravated murder charge even if
Speaker 1: he isn't necessarily one of the trigger men. But if
Speaker 1: this is a slam dunk for the prosecution, why is
Speaker 1: the defense going to trial? There's a strap how to
Speaker 1: cheat there that I don't think we've seen yet. I
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, at least I think the defense probably
Speaker 1: knows something that we all don't know. Do you think
Speaker 1: there's some sort of break in the case that will
Speaker 1: come out in the courtroom that no one is expecting. Yes,
Speaker 1: I do. These are experienced defense counsel They know exactly
Speaker 1: what they're doing. So I just think, before this thing
Speaker 1: is over, we're going to know quite a few things
Speaker 1: about the case that we didn't know before. I think
Speaker 1: one of the big things. And if you come to
Speaker 1: all these hearings, you see the Rodent and Gillie family
Speaker 1: survivors who are here every single time. I think this
Speaker 1: is finally going to give them some closure, finally some
Speaker 1: actual justice. More on that next time, the defense table
Speaker 1: sits right in front of the witness box, so he's
Speaker 1: going to be looking right at his brother, and his
Speaker 1: brother's gonna be looking right at him. I don't think
Speaker 1: I've ever seen photos that graphic before. When a jury
Speaker 1: sees a human body and ripped the shreds, there's that
Speaker 1: thing within them that ro was stuff and they want
Speaker 1: their pound flesh. For more information and case photos, follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piketon Masaker
Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, Scott
Speaker 1: de Graw, Andrew Arnow and me Courtney Armstrong editing and
Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Ti, music by Jared Asten, audio
Speaker 1: mixing by Ken Novak. The Piked and Masker is a
Speaker 1: production of Kati Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.