1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from works 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm colleague 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. And it's been a 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: little while, Tracy since we've done any episodes on ancient 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: history that is correct. So today, do you want to 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: go back to four D b C with me and 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: talk about an enigmatic Greek philosopher. So this guy is 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: really quite a fun character. Uh. He opted for a 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: life of poverty to one of comfort. He was a 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: self proclaimed citizen of the world. He's sometimes um uh 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: credited with inventing the word cosmopolitan relating to being a 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: citizen of the world. Uh. He was an enemy of pretense. 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: He was an amant guarde thinker, and he was also 14 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: a humorist. So he had a lot of irons in 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: the fire of philosophy. And this is Diogenes of Sinope. 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: And I've heard, I've listened to a bunch of pronunciations, 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: some uh at an accent on the middle syllable, so 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: it's Sinope Sinnape sounds more natural to me. So we're 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: going with that. Apologies if that irritates anyone, but the 20 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: trick with him is that his biography is based almost 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: entirely on apocryphal stories. There is some but not much 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: solid information about his life, and additionally, it appears that 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: he didn't write down any of his own philosophy. There 24 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: is some debate over that, but there's really been no 25 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: evidence that he did. So what we have is information 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: that's been passed down by his students and biographers, sometimes 27 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,639 Speaker 1: you know, several centuries later. And I have to admit, 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: with my own personal kind of uh point of view 29 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: on this, that I kind of look at Diogenes of 30 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: Sinnapy as a sort of ancient Greek tyler dirden, and 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: that may become more apparent and why I would think 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: that as we talk about his ideals and his philosophy 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: and his life also reads in some ways like one 34 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: long Monty python sketch. So it's quite fun. Uh. This 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: is not one where you're going to get a lot 36 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: of horrible stuff, although there are some twists and turns. 37 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: But I think it will be an enjoyable little trip 38 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: to the ancient past, So let's do it. Diogenes is 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: usually cited as being born in the year four twelve BC, and, 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: as with much of ancient history not really confident on 41 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: that date. He was born in Sinape Pathlagonia, on the 42 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: coast of the Black Sea, and there's not really a 43 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: lot known about his childhood. We do know that his 44 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: father worked with money, although we don't know the precise 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: nature of the work. Some biographies listed as one and 46 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: some of another. He could have been a mentor or 47 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: perhaps a money changer or simply a banker, and we 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: do know that Diogenes worked alongside his father and specificity 49 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: as to the specific job title aside, The really interesting 50 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: part of this relationship with money is that at some 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: point Diogenes and his father together or Diogenes alone or 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: even his father alone but taking credit by Diogenes, started 53 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: defacing the currency that they were working with. There have 54 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: been lots of archaeological finds that corroborate that a lot 55 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: of currency from the time was damaged, but we don't 56 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: really know why coin defacement was the hobby of Diogenes 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: and possibly his father, although there are some theories on 58 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: that yeah, it may have been a politically driven move 59 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: related to the Greco Persian wars of the time. Another 60 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: perspective on the currency defacement features the oracle at Delphi 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: playing a fairly significant role. In the text Lives of 62 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: Eminent Philosophers, written in the third century CE by Diogenes Laertius, 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: there is a discussion of Diogenes either being urged by 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: the oracle to commit this vandalism although he was urged 65 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: to vandalize political currency and instead to face state currency, 66 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: or of being called to the oracle after the fact 67 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: to realize that his behavior had been predestined. And we're 68 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: not certain again of how this particular habit of currency 69 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: vandalism actually played out in terms of repercussions. There are 70 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: accounts that Diogenes was exiled for this behavior, and some 71 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: of them involve a lot of um interplay with his 72 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: father and who was taking blame and who really did it. 73 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: But there are also conflicting accounts that say that Diogenes 74 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: fled before he could ever be tried for the crime. 75 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: Whichever of those scenarios was the case. Diogenes did move 76 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: to Athens after this whole currency incident. This one wind 77 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 1: up being a pivotal move because it's at this point 78 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: that he started down the path of philosophy. One of 79 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: socrates former students, Antissanes, took Diogenes on as a student 80 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: of his own. Uh. In a much contested and I 81 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: will keep saying that, but I just want to point out, 82 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: like they're there are ongoing debates over the veracity of 83 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: various accounts. But in a much contested version of the 84 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: story of how Diogenes became antisthenes disciple, Diogenes Laertius tells 85 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: it how Diogenes had to really wear Antisannes down before 86 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: the elder man finally conceded to take him on as 87 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: a student. When Antistanes raised a stick to Diogenes to 88 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: drive him away, his devotion was so vehement to becoming 89 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: a pupil that he put his head in the path 90 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: of the stick and said, strike, for you will not 91 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: find any stick hard enough to drive me away as 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: long as you continue to speak. Uh. And while we're 93 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: also continuing to talk about contested facets of the Diogenes story, 94 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: we actually don't know for certain that he really did 95 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: study under Antistanes. This is something that still gets debated 96 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: to this day by historians and classicists. So keep all 97 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: of that in mind as we go to say Diogenes 98 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: was an impassioned student, would really be an understatement. He 99 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: took the lessons of Antissanese two extremes, believing that he 100 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: had to live the philosophy rather than really to just 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: talk about it. He wanted to reject artificiality and the 102 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: luxury of of Athenian life. In fact, he wanted to 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: reject creature comforts so badly that he decided to live 104 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: in a tub in a building dedicated to the goddess Civilly. 105 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 1: Some accounts indicate that it was actually an empty wine 106 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: barrel and not a tub, and that he was merely 107 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: in a public square. But regardless of the details of 108 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: his tub or barrel, he was inspired, he said, by 109 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,799 Speaker 1: the mouse, which was a creature which he admired greatly 110 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: for the adaptability that it showed. It didn't need all 111 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: of these trappings. It could just live anywhere. Naturally. There's 112 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: a whole other account of how he came to be 113 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: living in this cask or tub, and in this version 114 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: he wrote ahead to a friend in Athens that he 115 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: was coming and that his friends should find him suitable accommodations. 116 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: The friend was unable to secure lodgings for Diogenes, and 117 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: so the possibly exiled man opted for a nearby barrel 118 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: or tub in the public square in Lives of Eminent Philosophers. 119 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: The Athneys, then, questioned as to his habit of living 120 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: on the streets, said that the Athenians had our ready 121 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: built him places to live in, meeting all of the 122 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: public spaces around him. It's an interesting approach to life. 123 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: But before we talk a little bit about some of 124 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: the ideals that Diogenes expounded on, we're gonna pause for 125 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: a quick word from a sponsor. Diogenes owned nothing, and 126 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: he depended on the kindness of others and some wiggly 127 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: logic that we're going to talk about momentarily in order 128 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: to survive. He did, at one point allegedly possess a 129 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: cup uh. That is until he saw a young boy 130 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: drinking from his cupped hands, at which point Diogenes threw 131 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: the vessel away, claiming that it was simply an unnecessary possession. 132 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: So you may wonder how a philosopher living on the 133 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: streets managed to survive the elements. He's said to have 134 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: taken up the habit of training himself to withstand any conditions, 135 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: so he would roll in hot sand during warm weather 136 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: and embrace cold marble statues in cold weather. Uh. Those 137 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: those may be fantastical fables of Diogenes, we just don't know. 138 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: He did believe that manners were a form of lying, 139 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: so he was pretty comfortable being really outspoken and really 140 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: rudely honest. Uh. He's also said to have pretty commonly 141 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: urinated in public and even masturbated openly. Uh. Basically any 142 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: of the natural human activities that someone might do in 143 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: private as part of living in a civilized society. Diogenes 144 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: felt those should all be allowed in public. That's part 145 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: of authentic life. When I first started looking at your outline, Holly, 146 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: I got to this thought about believing that manners were 147 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: a form of lying. So he was just outspoken and 148 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: brudely honest, and I was like, I think I used 149 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: to date this guy. And then I got to the 150 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: next dance, I was like, Nope, did not date this guy, 151 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: Thank goodness. There's another story of a wealthy group of 152 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: people throwing Diogenes bones during a banquet and calling him 153 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: a dog, after which he lifted his leg and urinated 154 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: on them canine style. Yeah, we're going to talk some 155 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: more about dogs because they are often associated with him, 156 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: But this is basically this time in Athens when he 157 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: was doing all of these too, some seemingly outlandish things 158 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: of living publicly in a tub or barrel and peeing 159 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: on people that bothered him. Uh, east people started to 160 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: call him crazy. In fact, Plato supposedly called Diogenes quote 161 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: a socrate has gone mad. So the relationship between Diogenes 162 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: and Plato was not simply a matter of mild name calling. 163 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: Diogenes was very openly critical of Plato's work. For example, 164 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: one of the ongoing philosophic discussions of the day was 165 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: analysis of the nature and definition of what it meant 166 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: to be human. Plato had to find man as a featherless, 167 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: biped animal. To point out the limited view of this definition, 168 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: Diogenes plucked a foul, possibly a chicken, and brought it 169 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: with him into the philosopher's academy, showing everyone how he 170 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: was is carrying by Plato's definition a human being. Yeah, 171 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: I always get this is one of the famous stories 172 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: of Diogenes, and I always get a little hung up 173 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: on it because it's not the chickens natural state, so 174 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: you can't be claiming that. But again, he was a humorist, 175 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: so any the first prop comic, perhaps um the debate 176 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: over the nature of man and what defined humanity continued 177 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: to lead to more eccentric behavior on the part of Diogenes. 178 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: So he would walk the streets of Athens carrying a lantern. 179 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll see it described as a candle, but much 180 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: more commonly as a lantern, even during daylight, and he 181 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: would hold it up to people's faces, claiming to be 182 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: looking for an honest man and never finding it. So 183 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: we're laughing at this guy pretty openly. And it's important 184 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: to point out that Diogenes was considered very humorous. So 185 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: while he was on the surface looking for an honest 186 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: human being in a way that might have seemed crazy 187 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: at best or jerkish at the worst, he was using 188 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: comedy to make a statement about the people of Athens 189 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: having lost their humanity. He really felt that humans were 190 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: living in pretense rather than in harmony with nature. That's 191 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: where he starts to sound a lot like Tyler Dirtan 192 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: to me. We should also mention, though, that he was 193 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: not the first or only philosopher who believed that most 194 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: humans were walking around in this sort of contrived dream 195 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: state of inauthenticity. Heraclitis, Sophocles and Plato all tackled similar 196 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 1: issues in their work, but none of them took to 197 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: the streets to challenge people openly and in their faces 198 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,359 Speaker 1: about it. To further comment on the trappings of human constructs, 199 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: the Agenes would say that he sometimes saw a man 200 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: as the brightest and wisest of all animals, but when 201 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: he saw that fortune tellers and soothsayers were heavily patronized, 202 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: he thought that mankind was the most foolish animal of all. 203 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: And he really believed pretty implicitly that humans should be 204 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: self sufficient as part of their natural state. Like he 205 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: really thought we exist in a way that we could 206 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: totally take care of ourselves if we got rid of 207 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: all of these societal constructs. But he also did a 208 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: little bit of fancy footwork, uh philosophically, to make sure 209 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: that his needs were met while he was living his natural, 210 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: self sufficient tub life. He would expound, for example, that 211 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: all elements are in all things, and that all substances 212 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: are united, So snatching a little bit of food or 213 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: stealing a little bit of wine was just making use 214 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: of the natural elements that are all around you. In 215 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: the vapor, they just happened to take the form of sustenance, 216 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: and apparently despite all the public urination and open criticism 217 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: of literally everyone around him, Diogenes was much beloved in Athens. Yeah, 218 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: people really thought I mean, they called him crazy, but 219 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: they also thought he was very smart and he had 220 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: a lot of interesting ideas, So he's such a fascinating creature. 221 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: Um and Diogenes, a synopy with his disdain for social 222 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: contracts constructs, is also considered the father of cynicism, and 223 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: this is where the dogs come in. So the word 224 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: cynicism is related to the Greek word for dog, and 225 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: there's no historical consensus as to how dogs came to 226 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: be so closely associated with Diogenes in his philosophy, but 227 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: there are several popular theories. The first one is that 228 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: he extolled the virtues of the dog's way of living 229 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: as being entirely without pretense, which people who love dogs 230 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: would probably agree with. The second one is that his 231 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: mentor and Tisanes, taught at a school called Sino Sarges, 232 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: which I may be pronouncing wrong, but that translates roughly 233 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: to place of the white Dog, So it was more 234 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: of a a linear homage to his teacher than anything else. 235 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: The third suggestion kind of loops back to the first one, 236 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: which is that it's a comparison between diogenes philosophy of 237 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: anti pretense and the general characteristics of a dog. Yeah, 238 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: so that one is more like from other people saying, hey, 239 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: you kind of live like a dog, rather than him 240 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: going dogs are awesome, they're not pretentious. It's more of 241 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: one that's put on him rather than him expounding on 242 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: And this association of dogs with Diogenes persisted throughout his 243 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: life and beyond. If you look at any artists renderings 244 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: of the philosopher, the majority of them, I would say, 245 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: because there have been a lot of paintings of him 246 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: throughout the years feature one or more dogs by his side. 247 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: There are a lot of images of him kind of 248 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: tucked into his little tub or his cask, and sometimes 249 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: there are four or five dogs just around him. They're 250 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: almost always dogs in the picture. So things are about 251 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: to get a little bit wacky. Here's what's going on. So, 252 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: while he was traveling, at one point, the story goes 253 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: that Diogenes was actually captured by pirates. You've gotta have 254 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: pirates in a good wacky story. And then he was 255 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: taken to crete and he was sold as a slave 256 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: to Zenids of Corinth, and as a slave, Diogenes allegedly 257 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: told his new owner that he had no special skills 258 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: or abilities other than governing men. So he was made 259 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: a tutor to uh Zeniad's children, and eventually he was 260 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: considered a member of the family rather than a slave. 261 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: And an alternate version of the story and Diogenes actually 262 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: chose the Zenids as the man that the pirates should 263 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: sell him to, saying that his potential master looked like 264 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: he really needed to be governed. Many different details compete 265 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: with one another when it comes to the relationship between 266 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: Diogenes and the man who purchased him. He might have 267 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: been set free immediately and then employed. He might have 268 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: started out as a slave and then slowly that aspect 269 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: of the relationship diminished. Or he might have stayed a slave, 270 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: although one with a great deal of personal freedom his 271 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: entire life. Yeah, we just don't know. And and that's 272 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: another another one of those things that different tellings put 273 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: it different ways, and different um translations have probably led 274 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: to some of that muddy water in that arena. And 275 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: despite the fact that he was technically a slave during 276 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: at least part of this time in Corinth, it does 277 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: appear that Diogenes lived there in much the same way 278 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: that he did in Athens. So he slept and bathed 279 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: and gave his lectures in public spaces, and he eschewed 280 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: the trappings of society, and he continued to share and 281 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: live his philosophy of personal responsibility and minimalist living. As 282 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: for the lessons that he bestowed upon the children that 283 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: he was tasked with teaching, he not only taught them academics, 284 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: but also writing, archery and stone slinging. When the boys 285 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: were in the gymnasium, he was adamant that they not 286 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: be trained in the standard athletic style, but in a 287 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: gentler manner, getting their heart rates up and color in 288 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: their cheeks, but not really pushing to extremes. Yeah, this 289 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: one always seems kind of odd to me. It's one 290 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: of the many later writings about him, because you see 291 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: him so often depicted as walking with a cane and 292 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: so like. Picturing him teaching them all of these physical 293 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: things seems odd to me, But you never know. Perhaps 294 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: it was true. Um. There's another sort of famous story 295 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: about him involving his time in Corinth and Diogenes allegedly 296 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: had an encounter with Alexander the Great. Apparently, Alexander wanted 297 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: to meet this unconventional philosopher because he had heard a 298 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: great deal about him. And when he finally found this 299 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: man on the streets of Corinth and inquired as to 300 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: whether he was, in fact the philosopher that he sought, 301 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: Diogenes is said to have replied, yes, get out of 302 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: my sunlight. The eccentric philosopher openly criticized Alexander, which perhaps surprisingly, 303 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: actually endeared him to the ruler, so much so that 304 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: the king of Macedonia once said that if he were 305 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: not Alexander the Great, he'd be Diogenes of Sinope. In 306 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: another belittling move, Diogenes supposedly responded, if I were not Diogenes, 307 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: I would also wish to be Diogenes. He's genuinely funny. 308 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: That's such a good singer. I love it. Um. He 309 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: would lecture in public spaces, and if no one stopped 310 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: to listen, he got to this really interesting sort of 311 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: cruel it's almost click baiting of the ancient style. He 312 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: would start whistling until onlookers came, and once he had 313 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: drawn a few people and gotten their attention. He would 314 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: then berate them for coming to listen to him whistling 315 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: and being musical, and point out how ignorant they were 316 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: that they did not stop earlier to listen to the 317 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: far more important things he had to share. I e. 318 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: His philosophy sort of reminds me of when, Uh, like 319 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: Joshua Bell, a virtuoso violinist, will just bust in a 320 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: subway and yeah, I'll sort of walk on by not 321 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: realizing what's happening. Uh. The Athony has lived the remainder 322 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: of his life in Corinthe, Greece, and died there in 323 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: three at the age of ninety. His cause of death 324 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: is as cloaked in murky variations, is basically every other 325 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: part of his life story varying a counts list. A 326 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: dog attack resulting in rabies, which would have been kind 327 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: of ironic considering all the previous dogs, stuff food poisoning, 328 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: eating a raw oxaf or maybe a raw octopus. Uh, 329 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: and even committing suicide by holding his breath until he died. 330 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: And that last one is just as unlikely as it sounds. 331 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: Probably he just died of old age. Yeah, I think 332 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: some of these stories were probably written to add drama. 333 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: But he was elderly when he died, and he had 334 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: been around a very long time, and that was quite 335 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: an old age. I love that there are accounts that 336 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: say he held his breath until he died. That can't work. 337 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: You pass out and start automatically breathing. But while Diogenes 338 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: had told people that he should be thrown to the 339 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: dogs as food when he died, he was instead given 340 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: a proper and honorable burial. He was again, despite being 341 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: this really eccentric, cranky public urinator, very beloved. H The 342 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: account of his death plan is a little bit different. 343 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: In the third century Diogenes Laerd his writings. There, he 344 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: is said to have told Zenids that, in fact, he 345 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: wanted to be buried on his face quote because in 346 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: a little while everything will be turned upside down. And 347 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: with that statement he was referring to the political situation 348 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: at the time, uh the Macedonians were rising in power, 349 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: and he thought a pretty big cultural shift was gonna 350 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: undoubtedly follow that. A statue of the philosopher was later 351 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: erected in Scenip, Turkey, and it features a dog by 352 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: his side and the signature lantern he would shine in 353 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: people's faces. Yeah, so that is the more modern day 354 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: version of where he was born. And one of the 355 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: reasons I think that the life of Diogenes comes with 356 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: a lot of variation in the telling and most likely 357 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: some outright fabrication, is that he was a larger than 358 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: life personality, and sometimes that will kind of build you know, 359 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: people will build on some very real, larger than life 360 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: things and kind of add their own embellishments. But I 361 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: really like, uh, this one story about him. That is 362 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: an nice way to kind of sum up his his life, 363 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: particularly at the end, because allegedly as he was nearing 364 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: the end of his life he was getting very old, 365 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: people would ask him why he insisted on continuing living 366 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: his difficult path of poverty when he really could retire 367 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: and live in greater comfort. Again, he was much beloved, 368 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: He probably had a lot of options and plenty of 369 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: people that would have been happy to take him in, 370 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: and he may have still been part of Zenia's family. 371 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: We don't entirely know. But his response was apparently, why 372 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: so suppose I had run a long distance, ought I 373 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: to stop when I was near the end and not 374 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: rather press on. I love him, He's so dedicated to him. 375 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: His whole thing funny. I mean sometimes, uh, we laugh 376 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: at people's foibles in the in the podcast because they 377 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: are humorous. We don't often get to laugh at somebody 378 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: who's being deliberately conical in the podcast. Is Yeah, a 379 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: nice change of pace from feeling mildly guilty about laughing 380 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: at somebody's calm, cold foibles. Yeah, he knew his foibles 381 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: were what they were. He he had a really good 382 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: sense of like what he was he was drawing out 383 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: of people. He was trying to get people to think 384 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: through comedy, which I always am a big fan of. 385 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: I think he's brilliant. Uh. But now I we'll switch 386 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: gears because I have a little bit of listener mail 387 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: help me. This one is from our listener Diane, and 388 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: she's writing about our Right Brothers episode when I was 389 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: lucky enough to interview David McCullough, and she says, uh, 390 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: You're Right Brothers. Podcast was a delightful one to listen to. 391 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: I was amused to here near the beginning of your 392 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: podcast that while most folks know who Wilburn Horble Right 393 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: were and what they're remembered for, most people know little 394 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: more than that about them, let alone the cast of 395 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: players that played a part in their historical events. I 396 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: am one of those ill informed people. Twelve years ago, 397 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: my dad, aged seventy, and I learned about a man 398 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: named Charles Taylor. We learned he was Wilburn Horble's mechanic 399 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: credited with designing and building the engine for their first 400 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: successful aircraft. As an aside, we talked about that in 401 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: the podcast. You may recall if you listened. She says, 402 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: did you know there is a Charles Taylor Master Mechanic 403 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: Award which is awarded by the f a A to 404 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: those who have worked the aviation industry as an aircraft mechanic. 405 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: I did not know that. She says. The eligibility requirements 406 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: are impressive, not the least of which one requirement is 407 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: worked for a period of fifty years in an aviation 408 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: maintenance career, and quote the applicant must have been an 409 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: f a A A certified mechanic or repairman working on n 410 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: registered aircraft maintained under the Federal Aviation Regulations for a 411 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: minimum of thirty of the fifty years required. She sent 412 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: us a link to more information and she says, ha ha, 413 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: this is where we get the really good part. How 414 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: did we come to learn about this man? You ask? 415 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: My father, Leo, is a volunteer at the Owl's Head 416 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: Transportation Museum here in Owl's Head, Maine. At their annual 417 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: volunteer banquet in two thousand three, my father was surprised 418 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: by the f a A with a presentation of the 419 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: Charles Taylor Master Mechanic Award. We all learned a little 420 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: more about the Right Brothers that day, but mostly about 421 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: Charles Taylor. And I am so very proud of my 422 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: father's achievement. How one hereful it was that someone recognized 423 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: this enough to put forward an application for him to 424 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: receive this prestigious award. Uh. And she goes on to 425 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: sort of show the cool credentials that her dad has. 426 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: It's so amazing, that's a huge achievement, So kudos to him. 427 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: And she um mentioned that listening to our podcast, she 428 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: thought Mr McCullough sounded just incredibly delightful. He is he's 429 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: so sweet and kind. Uh. And the stuff that we 430 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: cut out at the beginning and the end of our 431 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: phone call, I just was so delighted talking to him. 432 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: He was so sweet. Uh. And she mentioned that her 433 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: dad is very hard to bry for, so she bought 434 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: him Mr McCullough's book on the Right Brothers that just 435 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: came out and that he's been delighted with it. Um 436 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: had not read it before and so he really enjoyed it. 437 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for sharing that with us, 438 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: because it's such a cool family connection to a part 439 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: of history that you know. Again, Charles Taylor, I didn't 440 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: know anything about him before I read that book, so 441 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: it was very very cool to learn about him, and 442 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: now the owners are really prestigious award based on him. 443 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: I love it. If you would like to write to 444 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: us and share your awards or just talk about anything 445 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 1: you talked about on podcast, you can do so at 446 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: History Podcast at house to Works dot com. We're also 447 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: at Facebook dot com, slash missed in History and on 448 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: Twitter at missed in History. 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