WEBVTT - Ep. 1: The Myth of the Southern Mountain Lion 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:03.800 My name is Clay Nukelem and I'm a seventh generation 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.160 or Kansan. I'm a husband, a father, a hunter, a 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:12.520 mule skinner, a writer. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a person 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:16.040 of faith. We're starting a new podcast here a meat eater, 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.720 and I hope you'll follow along. I'm interested in that 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:25.360 intersection of where tradition and contemporary life meet. On this podcast, 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.680 we're gonna look back into history and find relevance for today. 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.320 I like looking for insight and unlikely places, searching for 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.840 relevance and things that have been forgotten. And I love 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.479 telling the story of Americans who lived their life close 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:46.839 to the land. This podcast is going to be an 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.639 efficient listen with an engaging glance into history and an 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:55.440 interesting guest where we'll explore unique people, unique topics, and 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.600 unique stories. I hope that you'll follow along on the 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.960 air Grease Podcast. There it is. That's the name of 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:09.000 our new podcast, the Bear Grease Podcast. Why the name 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.400 bear Grease? If you know much about me, you know 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.920 that I love some bear grease, which is the rendered 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.000 fat of a bear, literally the cooked lard of a 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.200 bear that's turned into oil at one time. Bear grease 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.840 or bear oil was a highly valued commodity and it 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.400 was used for cooking and all other sorts of practical stuff. 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.640 It was even used as currency. It had a ton 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.600 of value, and today most people wouldn't know anything about it. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.640 Technology and modern times have buried some pretty cool stuff 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:49.200 that we're rediscovering and we're redefining now even what's relevant 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:53.320 by looking back, some of the things that time has 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:59.360 forgotten are ripe for a cultural resurrection. Bear Grease is 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.840 a metaphor or and as you follow along, I think 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:15.079 you'll begin to understand what I mean. How certain are 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:22.160 you that you saw two mountain lions? No doubt? Have 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.040 you ever seen a lion? Mountain lion in Arkansas? I 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.399 think there's panther. I think there's black mountain lions. Myself. 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.880 On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast will be 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.639 exploring the myth of the Southern mountain lion and how 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.520 the lore or maybe the hard science, we don't know 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:46.840 which one has forever and inextricably connected itself to Southern culture. 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.320 We're going to talk to some mountain lion believers, a biologists, 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.400 and even a psychologist to get some answers about lions 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.200 and about human nature. Well, I mean, I don't have 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.400 any proof of it. I just always have heard that. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.959 You've heard it, you've heard of cognitive I mean I 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:17.440 just believed the propaganda. My name is Clay Nukelem and 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.200 this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.880 forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.639 where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:40.760 lives close to the land. There are two kinds of 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.280 people in the South, those that have seen mountain lions 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.360 in those that haven't. Both of these groups carry their 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:53.160 own unique stigmas, perhaps both equally as wrought with irony 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.600 as the other. They seem to huddle tightly and cult 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:01.240 like clans of believers and unbelievers. But to understand the 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.800 tension between those who have seen mountain lions and those 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.200 who haven't, and yes, there is tension, you'll have to 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:16.720 understand a bit of history. The mountain lion Puma con 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.120 color is a large tan colored feline weighing up to 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.720 two dred pounds or more. It, along with the jaguar, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.359 which are extremely rare and primarily live south of the 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.039 US border in Mexico, are the only large cats in 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.560 North America since the extinction of the giant cats of 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.159 the Pleistocene, which basically was an epoch of time that 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:42.880 ended about ten thousand years ago. These Pleistocene cats included 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.680 saber tooth cats, American lions, American jaguars, the American cheetah. 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.920 This place used to be crawling with giant purring predators. However, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.560 today we've pretty much got one large cat in the 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:01.240 United States and Canada. The old mountain lion or puma 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.880 or panther, or the painter or the catamount all the 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.920 same animal, but they have different names and different regions. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.560 You might recognize one of these, But the mountain lion's 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:18.240 native range extends from the Canadian Yukon all the way 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.520 down to the Andes Mountains of South America, and from 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.600 the east and west its range goes from the Atlantic 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.800 Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. This is fascinating that they 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.680 are the most widespread terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.880 To bring it home simply to North America. Prior to 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.119 European settlement, they had the widest geographic spread of any 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.679 large mammal, more than white tailed deer, more than elk, 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:50.080 or than Buffalo more than anything, and here in lies 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:55.360 are issue in They used to be here. But by 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.240 the turn of the twentieth century, mountain lions were extirpated 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.480 from almost one hundred percent of their eastern range in 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:10.240 the entire Eastern Deciduous Forest. The word extra pated means 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.680 that they didn't go extinct, but they were removed from 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:19.360 a specific region. The Eastern Deciduous Forest basically extends from 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.400 east Texas all the way to Maine, and from Wisconsin 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.440 all the way down to Florida. Basically, it's the eastern 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.640 one third of the United States. It's worth noting that 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:34.039 mountain lions in southern Florida held on and were never 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.119 entirely gone, perhaps making them the only mountain lions east 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.640 of the Mississippi for a very long time. Or were 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.040 they have they been in much of the Eastern Deciduous 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:49.000 Forest all this time, just right under our noses. A 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.520 lot of people think so, but for sure throughout the 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:58.679 twentieth century, mountain lion populations only survived, according to science anyway, 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.760 in the rugged out in this regions of the western 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.920 US and Canada. Though lions haven't been in the South 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.520 for the last hundred years, or at least that's what 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.760 the government biologists tell us. Lots of people still see them. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.680 In fact, I know some of these hillbillies that aren't 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.080 afraid to stand up against the statistics and against the 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:26.160 science and boldly proclaimed their eyewitness convictions. Some might even 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.280 call it conservation slander. The myth of the Southern mountain 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.680 lion is so strongly imbedded into our culture they might 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.760 as well actually be here. Or maybe they are here, 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.880 maybe they've been here all along. The only way that 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:44.720 I know how to get to the bottom of this 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.720 is to hear some of these stories for myself, and 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.680 some of these stories are pretty close to home. Just 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.520 for the record, I've never seen a mountain lion in 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.760 the South, but my dear sweet dad, Gary Newcom has, 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:08.000 And here's his story. When was it? Tell me when 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:13.080 it was? Oh, I would say twenty years ago, years 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:18.000 ago to say late nineties, Well, yeah, probably probably. And 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.880 I was in one of my favorite hunting areas, driving 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:27.640 on a Warehouser road. But then I looked to my left, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.720 and when I turned my truck in the middle of 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.800 the road to make that turn, I looked up there 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.400 and there was what I thought was a bobcat. I thought, 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:39.280 that's a big old bobcat, is it? Yeah? Yeah, it's 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.480 like it's later in the afternoon, but still real clear light. 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.160 I mean, it wasn't like dusty or anything. And I 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:50.920 thought a bobcat. And then I saw the tail and 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:52.880 I go, I look, yeah, it's some outline and you 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.319 know it was hundred yards you know, it was pretty 0:08:56.320 --> 0:09:00.560 good ways off. You saw a distinctive just think deep, 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:05.600 no question about it. So what color was I want 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.640 to say blue? Yeah it was. It was just a 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.880 tan colored animals. Yeah, I mean like, okay, so you're 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:18.160 my dad, and I inherently trust your judgment. You've been 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:23.760 around seventy two years. How certain are you if you 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.120 if there was a way to tell, I mean, like, 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:27.800 if there was really a way to know whether it 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.240 was a mountain lie or not in your life depended 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.400 on how certain are you that it was a mountain, 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.000 it would be Oh yeah, I mean, I don't know 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.240 what has a tail that this as long as the body, 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.040 it seemed to me, like, what did it do? Was 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.720 just standing the road and ran on It took his time, 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:45.720 came across the road. By the time I saw it 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.800 as pretty close to the ditch, and and if if 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.080 I remember correctly, it looked at me. So it didn't 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.520 just darted. No, no, no, it was moving slow, so 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.120 you gotta look at it. Yeah, and so, but I 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.199 didn't catch it from over here to here. I caught 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.320 it towards the you know, just maybe two or three 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.760 steps from the ditch, and then it just eased off 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.640 in the ditch and then went into the cut over 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.520 you know, ten year old cut. And uh, when I 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.320 saw the tale, you know, I sit here, I's just 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.880 thinking mountain lion, you know, I mean, it's just I mean, 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:28.960 what what has it said? Yeah, Brent Reeves would be 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.920 considered a hill billy if he didn't live in the 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.640 Arkansas Delta or the swamp country. Regardless of semantics. He's 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.200 a close friend of mine, veteran outdoorsman, and he's been 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.880 in law enforcement for the last thirty years. I've only 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.720 known him to stretch the truth on occasion. And he 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.560 claims to not just have seen one mountain lion, but too. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:56.440 I'll let you judge his story. So, Brent, tell me 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.760 about not one mountain lion, but two mountain lions that 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.680 you've seen in Arkansas. I will gladly relate the following. 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.960 The first one was probably in nineteen I'm gonna say 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.560 it was an eight eight. Me and three other guys 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:18.160 were working for a private UH timber management company, and 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.920 we were in Ashley County, Arkansas, which is in right 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.760 next to two counties away from from Mississippi and southeast Arkansas. 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.160 We were driving down the timber company road going to 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.960 manage September is probably nine o'clock in the morning, good daylight, 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.200 and a panther, mountain lion, cougar, whatever you want to 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.800 call it, jumped out in front of our truck at 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.360 about thirty yards and loped down the road in front 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.360 of us for twenty thirty seconds, and we're right behind it, 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.520 and it ran off into a section September that we 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.880 drove down another quarter of a mile and went in 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.920 ourselves to cruise the timber see how much timber was 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.800 in there. That was the at first one I've ever seen. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.320 And we got back that afternoon. There was no cell 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.280 phones or anything back during that time. So when we 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:08.040 got back to the office that afternoon, I called a 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.920 friend and we then reported to the Game and Fish 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.400 and we got a call back I think the next 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.720 day that they had had reports to that in the 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:22.280 area and actually attributed it to one that had escaped captivity. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.880 So it was it was known in that area to 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.880 be rambling around. And so that wasn't the only mountain 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.160 lion you've seen, You've seen another one. How did that? 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:38.040 My friend David Boudra and I we're going coon hunt 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.640 one evening. This would have been even a real name. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.640 It is. It is getting fisher and Fisher it is. 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.880 It is a real name, and he can attest to it. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.200 But but David and I were going coon hunting one 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.160 evening in Cleveland County where I grew up, and it's 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.840 dusky dark, you don't have to drive with your lights on. 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.439 And we were driving next to this big clear cut 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.000 fresh clear cut, and there was two or three big 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.800 trees that weren't mergetable for logs or anything. So the 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.920 timber company left him out there. And this tree was 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.160 probably it was a big white oak tree. It was 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.839 probably hundred and fifty two hundred yards away from the 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.480 timber access road and we're driving down through there. It's 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.320 in the fall of the year, so the leaves are 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:24.920 coming off pretty good and I look out there and 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.320 I can see a silhouette of what I thought was 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.040 a turkey, and I told David, I said, David looked 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:31.880 at the big old turkey saitting on the limb out there, 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.160 and he said, yeah, I see it. Well, I had 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.400 my coon hunting light on. I just turned my light 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.280 on see if I could see if it was a 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.760 gobbler or a hen. And when I turned it on, 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.040 the eyes were glowing back at me, which turkey's eyes 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.160 don't normally do that. And we slowed down and David said, man, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.880 that's not a that's not a turkey. And we slowed 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.959 down to look at it, and it turned started walking 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.319 down that limb, and you could plainly see that big 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.040 long tail out from out behind it. That thing walked 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.800 down towards the trunk of the tree, got to where 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.480 the limb leaves the trunk of the tree, put his 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.520 feet down, their paws and just dropped down into that 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.760 clear cut. And then we turned around and went back 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.640 the other direction and turned their dogs loose. Let me 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.760 ask you this, on both of these sightings, now thirty 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.920 years later, if your life depended on it, and there 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.160 was a way to know the absolute truth and they 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.200 said they're gonna burn your house down if you're wrong. 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:36.320 How certain are you that you saw two mountain lions? 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.760 No doubt? And the thing about it is, both times 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.760 I had a witness with me. Of course, one of 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.680 them was a coon. I'm gonna I'm gonna need their 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.920 phone numbers. One of them is, I say was one 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:49.800 of them is a coupon hunter, and they you know 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.600 he's not vaccinated against lyon. But I'm telling you no, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:15:00.160 no doubt about it. I'll let you be the edge 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.840 of whether you believe these two stories or not. But 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.160 I've got somebody that has the credentials to validate them 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.840 or take away all their credibility. I'm not sure which 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.720 one it will be. Myron Means is a statewide large 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.680 carnivore program coordinator for the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.320 If there's an expert on mountain lions around these parts, 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.040 it's my Iron Means. I think you can give us 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.520 some insight into the facts of whether the mythical mountain 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.720 lions of the South are real or if they're just 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.440 a farcical relic of folklore passed on from a time 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:41.520 when they were actually here. Myra and When I first 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.640 met you ten eleven years ago, you were the Arkansas 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:50.400 Bear Coordinator black Bear Bio. Just that's right, and now 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.960 you're not. Your your title has changed. What's your new 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.680 title with the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. My new 0:15:55.760 --> 0:16:01.640 title is Statewide Large Carnivore Program Coordinator for Arkansas Game 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:06.800 and Fish Commission. That's a mouthful. Something happened because at 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:12.720 one time there was just one large carnivore acknowledged by 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.920 the Game and Fish and your title change, which indicates 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:21.600 what happened. Well long about ten years ago, right after 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.720 I took the bear program coordinator position, we started seeing 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.560 mountlines in the state. And it's not that they weren't 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.480 seen prior to that, it's just that, you know, we 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:37.520 didn't have there were very very few ways to uh 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.680 document a siting. I mean, you know, if you think 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.800 back historically, people didn't have game cameras back much in 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.240 the eighties, you know, and that's come that's kind of 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.520 come along in the past fifteen years or so. But anyway, 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:54.440 what basically what happened was mountainlins started showing up in 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.640 the state from time to time, and UH, Game and 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.320 Fish recognized that, you know, you need to have someone 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:07.399 that's kind of coordinating the sightings, coordinating the verifications, uh, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.639 and just kind of packaging mountainlin stuff. So it's not 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:16.480 necessarily that now there are lions here and there weren't before, 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.119 but we're we just know about them. Is that what 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.280 I'm hearing you say? That's right, that's right. You know, 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:25.520 for a lot came primarily because of game cameras or 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.000 you know, if someone has one like on a phone 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.639 video or something like that. But it's primarily been the 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.760 game cameras. Uh. That's really what has helped us, you know, 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.399 document the occurrence and mountlines in the States. So here's 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.000 here's the question. Where did they come from? Because bears 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.919 mountain lions, this would be historic mountain lion range here 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.000 in Arkansas and in all of the eastern United States. 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.840 So where did our lines come from? Well, that's ah, 0:17:54.720 --> 0:18:00.720 that's a million dollar question. Who knows. The only evidence 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.000 that we have currently was from a mountain line that 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.879 was shot by a deer hunter back into two thousand 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.240 and sixteen. Now that was harvested or shot in Bradley 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.920 County by a deer hunter. That mountain lion was also 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:19.080 previously documented on a cash in Marion County about two 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:23.040 months prior to that, So that would have been in Uh, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.560 that was in two thousand and fourteen. I'm sorry. Uh. 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.920 So the DNA evidence that we collected from that cat 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.680 in both instances, UH told us that number one, it's 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.679 the same cat. UH told us that number two, that 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.919 cat had origins from the South Dakota population. Now that 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.399 doesn't necessarily mean that cat was born in South Dakota. 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.920 It just means that it's d n A origins came 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:56.000 from that South Dakota population. Now, if you think of 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.640 it in terms of where would it most likely come from, Well, 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:05.160 there's established mountain populations in the Dakotas, South Dakota, which 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.000 would be north and west of us, slightly primarily north, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.359 but still in the Mississippi River drainage for the most part. Well, 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.199 it'd be kind of it'd be probably closer tied to 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:21.320 the Missouri River drainage. Uh. There's an established population in 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:27.080 northwest Nebraska. There's an established population out in the Panhandle 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.040 of Oklahoma. There's an established population of lines in the 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:36.240 Panhandle of Texas and in southern Texas. So I mean, uh, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.760 and of course you have the Florida panthers in Florida. 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:43.560 So those are really the the closest quote established, how 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.240 many that would be from here? You know, the closest 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.520 population would probably be the Panhandle of Oklahoma, you know, 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.400 out in the Black Hills area. But is it likely 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.800 that those caps would move all the way across Oklahoma? 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.880 Probably not, But because the travel corridors in the habitat 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.960 just isn't there. Is it likely that a cat could 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.919 move out of the Dakotas across northern Nebraska, uh into 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.480 eastern Nebraska and hit the Missouri River drainage and follow 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.960 the Missouri River down through the ozarks of Missouri and 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.680 then into the ozarks of Arkansas and then go who 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.800 knows where else. That's probably the most likely. So it's 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.960 almost like highways, like habitat highways, like you could you 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.720 could track good lion habitat all the way back to 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.919 the Dakotas and Nebraska. Sure you could. I mean, you 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.479 know there's gonna be some spancees of maybe hundred hundred 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.560 fifty mile maybe even two hundred mile gaps, But you 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.720 have to think and in travel terms, you know, that's 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:50.600 something that a mountain lion could do. In a day 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.600 or two. Byron, what about captive lions getting out? Because 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.359 I remember growing up in western Arkansas, you'd hear the 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.959 odd persons say they saw line and it was always 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.199 thrown back up on cap. They said, somebody had a 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.359 captive line and they let it lose. What do you 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.639 think of that? Yeah, And a matter of fact, you know, 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.880 that was really kind of the official, I guess position 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.000 of the agency through the eighties and nineties, that more 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.640 than likely if someone saw a mountain line, more than 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.920 likely it was the result of an escaped cat or 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.400 some a cat that someone couldn't care for anymore. They removing, 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.320 maybe the owner died, maybe something, and so what are 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.639 they gonna do? Just turn it out? So that was 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:37.080 really kind of the official position of the agency for 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.120 a couple of decades. Uh, that more n likely if 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.840 you saw a cat, it was probably a release cat 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:45.800 or an escaped cat. You know, that takes all the 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.960 fun I've seen a mountain line. Well, it certainly presented 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.720 a lot of gotcha opportunities, you know, for the agency. Uh, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.639 for a long time, back in the early two thousand's 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.520 is probably when the agency started turning around saying more 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.879 than likely rather than being an escaped cap because a 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.720 lot of those captive breeders kind of fell out. You know, 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:12.160 when I was a kidulations yeah, and it just wasn't 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.600 the thing. I mean, I could remember, believe it or not. 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.359 When I was a kid, I knew two people that 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.560 I went to a grade school with that had pet 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:25.240 mountain lines. I mean, you know so so, I mean 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.800 back in the seventies, you know, it wasn't that odd 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.960 of a deal for someone to have a mountain line 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.640 as a pet. You know, we still have no proof. 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:35.280 A lot of people try to play gotcha all the 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.919 time with us and say, well, gaming Fish says that, 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.879 you know, we don't have mountain lines. Well, you know, 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.040 we've never said we don't have mountlines. What we've said 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.800 for the past forty years or plus years is that 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:53.440 we don't have any evidence of an established, reproducing population 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.600 of mountainlines. And has that changed, still has not changed. 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.399 We still don't have evidence of a reading population mountain 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.159 lions here. We do not. Well, let me ask you this, 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:07.800 do you feel like today in Arkansas there are mountain 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:09.960 lions that are living here year round? I think there 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:12.960 are mountain lions that live here year around. I think 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.840 virtually all of the mountain lions that we have documented 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.920 sightings of over the past, uh well since two thousand ten, 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:24.720 I feel like they're all males, you know, either young 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.919 males or older males. A lot of the picture evidence 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.840 translates to them being older males. I'm not talking really 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:36.320 old males, but mature males. And that would be very 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.800 characteristic of an expanding population of large carnivores, whether it 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:43.880 be bears or lions. You would start to see these 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:49.440 fringe areas that would start to get satellite males. And uh, 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.760 you know a lot of people don't realize with mountain 0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:54.480 lions is that you know, you're you're talking about a 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.240 young animal that gets pushed out of the population, a 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.920 young male that basically gets kicked out on the streets. 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:03.800 You know, it's not something that they're just gonna travel 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.600 another fifty miles down the road and establish, you know, 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.639 a territory of their own. I mean, you're talking about 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:16.240 animals that have no qualms about traveling hundreds of miles 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.960 in order to find a suitable territory that has food, 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:27.080 cover and females. Well, in the absence of females, they're 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.919 not going to establish a territory. I mean, it's just 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.840 that simple. So when you think of the behavior that 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.719 takes place in these animals they move into, say if 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.880 they did come from the Dakotas they move into the Missouri, 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:43.919 they go down the Missouri drainage, they're starting to mature. 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:46.840 They're no longer six months old, they're a year old. 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:51.679 They're mature. Male. Uh So, there are a couple of 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:55.840 things that are driving that young mountain lion to exist. 0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:59.840 One of them is food and the other one is reproduction. 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:05.159 And until he finds both of those, he's not So 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:08.280 he's looping down into Missouri and going back. Probably he 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:11.199 might be going back. He much might just continue to 0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:15.760 keep going until he does find a female. And whether 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:18.320 that means he has to cross four or five six 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:22.119 states to do it, they'll do it. Wow. In the 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:26.960 nineteen nineties movie Dumb and Dumber, Jim Carrey, when he's 0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:29.679 confronted with the fact that his girlfriend is leaving him 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:33.640 forever and she gives him an inkling of hope that 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:37.400