1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukelem and I'm a seventh generation 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: or Kansan. I'm a husband, a father, a hunter, a 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: mule skinner, a writer. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a person 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: of faith. We're starting a new podcast here a meat eater, 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: and I hope you'll follow along. I'm interested in that 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: intersection of where tradition and contemporary life meet. On this podcast, 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna look back into history and find relevance for today. 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: I like looking for insight and unlikely places, searching for 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: relevance and things that have been forgotten. And I love 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: telling the story of Americans who lived their life close 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: to the land. This podcast is going to be an 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: efficient listen with an engaging glance into history and an 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: interesting guest where we'll explore unique people, unique topics, and 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: unique stories. I hope that you'll follow along on the 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: air Grease Podcast. There it is. That's the name of 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: our new podcast, the Bear Grease Podcast. Why the name 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: bear Grease? If you know much about me, you know 18 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: that I love some bear grease, which is the rendered 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: fat of a bear, literally the cooked lard of a 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: bear that's turned into oil at one time. Bear grease 21 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: or bear oil was a highly valued commodity and it 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: was used for cooking and all other sorts of practical stuff. 23 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: It was even used as currency. It had a ton 24 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: of value, and today most people wouldn't know anything about it. 25 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: Technology and modern times have buried some pretty cool stuff 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: that we're rediscovering and we're redefining now even what's relevant 27 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: by looking back, some of the things that time has 28 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: forgotten are ripe for a cultural resurrection. Bear Grease is 29 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: a metaphor or and as you follow along, I think 30 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: you'll begin to understand what I mean. How certain are 31 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: you that you saw two mountain lions? No doubt? Have 32 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: you ever seen a lion? Mountain lion in Arkansas? I 33 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 1: think there's panther. I think there's black mountain lions. Myself. 34 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast will be 35 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: exploring the myth of the Southern mountain lion and how 36 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: the lore or maybe the hard science, we don't know 37 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: which one has forever and inextricably connected itself to Southern culture. 38 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: We're going to talk to some mountain lion believers, a biologists, 39 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: and even a psychologist to get some answers about lions 40 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: and about human nature. Well, I mean, I don't have 41 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: any proof of it. I just always have heard that. 42 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: You've heard it, you've heard of cognitive I mean I 43 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: just believed the propaganda. My name is Clay Nukelem and 44 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things 45 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and 46 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their 47 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: lives close to the land. There are two kinds of 48 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: people in the South, those that have seen mountain lions 49 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: in those that haven't. Both of these groups carry their 50 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: own unique stigmas, perhaps both equally as wrought with irony 51 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: as the other. They seem to huddle tightly and cult 52 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: like clans of believers and unbelievers. But to understand the 53 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: tension between those who have seen mountain lions and those 54 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: who haven't, and yes, there is tension, you'll have to 55 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: understand a bit of history. The mountain lion Puma con 56 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: color is a large tan colored feline weighing up to 57 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: two dred pounds or more. It, along with the jaguar, 58 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: which are extremely rare and primarily live south of the 59 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: US border in Mexico, are the only large cats in 60 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: North America since the extinction of the giant cats of 61 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: the Pleistocene, which basically was an epoch of time that 62 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: ended about ten thousand years ago. These Pleistocene cats included 63 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: saber tooth cats, American lions, American jaguars, the American cheetah. 64 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: This place used to be crawling with giant purring predators. However, 65 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: today we've pretty much got one large cat in the 66 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: United States and Canada. The old mountain lion or puma 67 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: or panther, or the painter or the catamount all the 68 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: same animal, but they have different names and different regions. 69 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: You might recognize one of these, But the mountain lion's 70 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: native range extends from the Canadian Yukon all the way 71 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: down to the Andes Mountains of South America, and from 72 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: the east and west its range goes from the Atlantic 73 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. This is fascinating that they 74 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: are the most widespread terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere. 75 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: To bring it home simply to North America. Prior to 76 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,119 Speaker 1: European settlement, they had the widest geographic spread of any 77 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,679 Speaker 1: large mammal, more than white tailed deer, more than elk, 78 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: or than Buffalo more than anything, and here in lies 79 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: are issue in They used to be here. But by 80 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century, mountain lions were extirpated 81 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: from almost one hundred percent of their eastern range in 82 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: the entire Eastern Deciduous Forest. The word extra pated means 83 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: that they didn't go extinct, but they were removed from 84 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: a specific region. The Eastern Deciduous Forest basically extends from 85 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: east Texas all the way to Maine, and from Wisconsin 86 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: all the way down to Florida. Basically, it's the eastern 87 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: one third of the United States. It's worth noting that 88 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: mountain lions in southern Florida held on and were never 89 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 1: entirely gone, perhaps making them the only mountain lions east 90 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi for a very long time. Or were 91 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: they have they been in much of the Eastern Deciduous 92 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: Forest all this time, just right under our noses. A 93 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: lot of people think so, but for sure throughout the 94 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 1: twentieth century, mountain lion populations only survived, according to science anyway, 95 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: in the rugged out in this regions of the western 96 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: US and Canada. Though lions haven't been in the South 97 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: for the last hundred years, or at least that's what 98 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: the government biologists tell us. Lots of people still see them. 99 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: In fact, I know some of these hillbillies that aren't 100 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: afraid to stand up against the statistics and against the 101 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: science and boldly proclaimed their eyewitness convictions. Some might even 102 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: call it conservation slander. The myth of the Southern mountain 103 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: lion is so strongly imbedded into our culture they might 104 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: as well actually be here. Or maybe they are here, 105 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: maybe they've been here all along. The only way that 106 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: I know how to get to the bottom of this 107 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: is to hear some of these stories for myself, and 108 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: some of these stories are pretty close to home. Just 109 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: for the record, I've never seen a mountain lion in 110 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: the South, but my dear sweet dad, Gary Newcom has, 111 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: And here's his story. When was it? Tell me when 112 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: it was? Oh, I would say twenty years ago, years 113 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: ago to say late nineties, Well, yeah, probably probably. And 114 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: I was in one of my favorite hunting areas, driving 115 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: on a Warehouser road. But then I looked to my left, 116 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: and when I turned my truck in the middle of 117 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: the road to make that turn, I looked up there 118 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: and there was what I thought was a bobcat. I thought, 119 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: that's a big old bobcat, is it? Yeah? Yeah, it's 120 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: like it's later in the afternoon, but still real clear light. 121 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't like dusty or anything. And I 122 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: thought a bobcat. And then I saw the tail and 123 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: I go, I look, yeah, it's some outline and you 124 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: know it was hundred yards you know, it was pretty 125 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: good ways off. You saw a distinctive just think deep, 126 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: no question about it. So what color was I want 127 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: to say blue? Yeah it was. It was just a 128 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: tan colored animals. Yeah, I mean like, okay, so you're 129 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: my dad, and I inherently trust your judgment. You've been 130 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: around seventy two years. How certain are you if you 131 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: if there was a way to tell, I mean, like, 132 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: if there was really a way to know whether it 133 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: was a mountain lie or not in your life depended 134 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: on how certain are you that it was a mountain, 135 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: it would be Oh yeah, I mean, I don't know 136 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: what has a tail that this as long as the body, 137 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: it seemed to me, like, what did it do? Was 138 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: just standing the road and ran on It took his time, 139 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: came across the road. By the time I saw it 140 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: as pretty close to the ditch, and and if if 141 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, it looked at me. So it didn't 142 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: just darted. No, no, no, it was moving slow, so 143 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: you gotta look at it. Yeah, and so, but I 144 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: didn't catch it from over here to here. I caught 145 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: it towards the you know, just maybe two or three 146 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: steps from the ditch, and then it just eased off 147 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: in the ditch and then went into the cut over 148 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, ten year old cut. And uh, when I 149 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: saw the tale, you know, I sit here, I's just 150 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: thinking mountain lion, you know, I mean, it's just I mean, 151 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: what what has it said? Yeah, Brent Reeves would be 152 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: considered a hill billy if he didn't live in the 153 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: Arkansas Delta or the swamp country. Regardless of semantics. He's 154 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: a close friend of mine, veteran outdoorsman, and he's been 155 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: in law enforcement for the last thirty years. I've only 156 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: known him to stretch the truth on occasion. And he 157 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: claims to not just have seen one mountain lion, but too. 158 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: I'll let you judge his story. So, Brent, tell me 159 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: about not one mountain lion, but two mountain lions that 160 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: you've seen in Arkansas. I will gladly relate the following. 161 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: The first one was probably in nineteen I'm gonna say 162 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: it was an eight eight. Me and three other guys 163 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: were working for a private UH timber management company, and 164 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: we were in Ashley County, Arkansas, which is in right 165 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: next to two counties away from from Mississippi and southeast Arkansas. 166 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: We were driving down the timber company road going to 167 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: manage September is probably nine o'clock in the morning, good daylight, 168 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: and a panther, mountain lion, cougar, whatever you want to 169 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: call it, jumped out in front of our truck at 170 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: about thirty yards and loped down the road in front 171 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: of us for twenty thirty seconds, and we're right behind it, 172 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: and it ran off into a section September that we 173 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: drove down another quarter of a mile and went in 174 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: ourselves to cruise the timber see how much timber was 175 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: in there. That was the at first one I've ever seen. 176 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: And we got back that afternoon. There was no cell 177 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: phones or anything back during that time. So when we 178 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: got back to the office that afternoon, I called a 179 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: friend and we then reported to the Game and Fish 180 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: and we got a call back I think the next 181 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: day that they had had reports to that in the 182 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: area and actually attributed it to one that had escaped captivity. 183 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: So it was it was known in that area to 184 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: be rambling around. And so that wasn't the only mountain 185 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: lion you've seen, You've seen another one. How did that? 186 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: My friend David Boudra and I we're going coon hunt 187 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: one evening. This would have been even a real name. 188 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: It is. It is getting fisher and Fisher it is. 189 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: It is a real name, and he can attest to it. 190 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: But but David and I were going coon hunting one 191 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: evening in Cleveland County where I grew up, and it's 192 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: dusky dark, you don't have to drive with your lights on. 193 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: And we were driving next to this big clear cut 194 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: fresh clear cut, and there was two or three big 195 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: trees that weren't mergetable for logs or anything. So the 196 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: timber company left him out there. And this tree was 197 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: probably it was a big white oak tree. It was 198 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: probably hundred and fifty two hundred yards away from the 199 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: timber access road and we're driving down through there. It's 200 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: in the fall of the year, so the leaves are 201 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: coming off pretty good and I look out there and 202 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: I can see a silhouette of what I thought was 203 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: a turkey, and I told David, I said, David looked 204 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: at the big old turkey saitting on the limb out there, 205 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, I see it. Well, I had 206 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: my coon hunting light on. I just turned my light 207 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: on see if I could see if it was a 208 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: gobbler or a hen. And when I turned it on, 209 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: the eyes were glowing back at me, which turkey's eyes 210 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: don't normally do that. And we slowed down and David said, man, 211 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: that's not a that's not a turkey. And we slowed 212 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: down to look at it, and it turned started walking 213 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: down that limb, and you could plainly see that big 214 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: long tail out from out behind it. That thing walked 215 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: down towards the trunk of the tree, got to where 216 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: the limb leaves the trunk of the tree, put his 217 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: feet down, their paws and just dropped down into that 218 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: clear cut. And then we turned around and went back 219 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: the other direction and turned their dogs loose. Let me 220 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: ask you this, on both of these sightings, now thirty 221 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: years later, if your life depended on it, and there 222 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: was a way to know the absolute truth and they 223 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: said they're gonna burn your house down if you're wrong. 224 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: How certain are you that you saw two mountain lions? 225 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: No doubt? And the thing about it is, both times 226 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: I had a witness with me. Of course, one of 227 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: them was a coon. I'm gonna I'm gonna need their 228 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: phone numbers. One of them is, I say was one 229 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: of them is a coupon hunter, and they you know 230 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: he's not vaccinated against lyon. But I'm telling you no, 231 00:14:54,600 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: no doubt about it. I'll let you be the edge 232 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: of whether you believe these two stories or not. But 233 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: I've got somebody that has the credentials to validate them 234 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: or take away all their credibility. I'm not sure which 235 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: one it will be. Myron Means is a statewide large 236 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: carnivore program coordinator for the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. 237 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: If there's an expert on mountain lions around these parts, 238 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: it's my Iron Means. I think you can give us 239 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: some insight into the facts of whether the mythical mountain 240 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: lions of the South are real or if they're just 241 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: a farcical relic of folklore passed on from a time 242 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: when they were actually here. Myra and When I first 243 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: met you ten eleven years ago, you were the Arkansas 244 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: Bear Coordinator black Bear Bio. Just that's right, and now 245 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: you're not. Your your title has changed. What's your new 246 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: title with the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. My new 247 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: title is Statewide Large Carnivore Program Coordinator for Arkansas Game 248 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: and Fish Commission. That's a mouthful. Something happened because at 249 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: one time there was just one large carnivore acknowledged by 250 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: the Game and Fish and your title change, which indicates 251 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: what happened. Well long about ten years ago, right after 252 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: I took the bear program coordinator position, we started seeing 253 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: mountlines in the state. And it's not that they weren't 254 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: seen prior to that, it's just that, you know, we 255 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: didn't have there were very very few ways to uh 256 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: document a siting. I mean, you know, if you think 257 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: back historically, people didn't have game cameras back much in 258 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: the eighties, you know, and that's come that's kind of 259 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: come along in the past fifteen years or so. But anyway, 260 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: what basically what happened was mountainlins started showing up in 261 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: the state from time to time, and UH, Game and 262 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: Fish recognized that, you know, you need to have someone 263 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: that's kind of coordinating the sightings, coordinating the verifications, uh, 264 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: and just kind of packaging mountainlin stuff. So it's not 265 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: necessarily that now there are lions here and there weren't before, 266 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: but we're we just know about them. Is that what 267 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say? That's right, that's right. You know, 268 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: for a lot came primarily because of game cameras or 269 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, if someone has one like on a phone 270 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: video or something like that. But it's primarily been the 271 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: game cameras. Uh. That's really what has helped us, you know, 272 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: document the occurrence and mountlines in the States. So here's 273 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: here's the question. Where did they come from? Because bears 274 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: mountain lions, this would be historic mountain lion range here 275 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: in Arkansas and in all of the eastern United States. 276 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: So where did our lines come from? Well, that's ah, 277 00:17:54,720 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: that's a million dollar question. Who knows. The only evidence 278 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: that we have currently was from a mountain line that 279 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: was shot by a deer hunter back into two thousand 280 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: and sixteen. Now that was harvested or shot in Bradley 281 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: County by a deer hunter. That mountain lion was also 282 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: previously documented on a cash in Marion County about two 283 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: months prior to that, So that would have been in Uh, 284 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: that was in two thousand and fourteen. I'm sorry. Uh. 285 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: So the DNA evidence that we collected from that cat 286 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: in both instances, UH told us that number one, it's 287 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: the same cat. UH told us that number two, that 288 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: cat had origins from the South Dakota population. Now that 289 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that cat was born in South Dakota. 290 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: It just means that it's d n A origins came 291 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: from that South Dakota population. Now, if you think of 292 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: it in terms of where would it most likely come from, Well, 293 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: there's established mountain populations in the Dakotas, South Dakota, which 294 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: would be north and west of us, slightly primarily north, 295 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: but still in the Mississippi River drainage for the most part. Well, 296 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: it'd be kind of it'd be probably closer tied to 297 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: the Missouri River drainage. Uh. There's an established population in 298 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: northwest Nebraska. There's an established population out in the Panhandle 299 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: of Oklahoma. There's an established population of lines in the 300 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: Panhandle of Texas and in southern Texas. So I mean, uh, 301 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: and of course you have the Florida panthers in Florida. 302 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: So those are really the the closest quote established, how 303 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: many that would be from here? You know, the closest 304 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: population would probably be the Panhandle of Oklahoma, you know, 305 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: out in the Black Hills area. But is it likely 306 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: that those caps would move all the way across Oklahoma? 307 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: Probably not, But because the travel corridors in the habitat 308 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: just isn't there. Is it likely that a cat could 309 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: move out of the Dakotas across northern Nebraska, uh into 310 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: eastern Nebraska and hit the Missouri River drainage and follow 311 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: the Missouri River down through the ozarks of Missouri and 312 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: then into the ozarks of Arkansas and then go who 313 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: knows where else. That's probably the most likely. So it's 314 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: almost like highways, like habitat highways, like you could you 315 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: could track good lion habitat all the way back to 316 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: the Dakotas and Nebraska. Sure you could. I mean, you 317 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 1: know there's gonna be some spancees of maybe hundred hundred 318 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: fifty mile maybe even two hundred mile gaps, But you 319 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: have to think and in travel terms, you know, that's 320 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: something that a mountain lion could do. In a day 321 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: or two. Byron, what about captive lions getting out? Because 322 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: I remember growing up in western Arkansas, you'd hear the 323 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: odd persons say they saw line and it was always 324 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: thrown back up on cap. They said, somebody had a 325 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: captive line and they let it lose. What do you 326 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: think of that? Yeah, And a matter of fact, you know, 327 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: that was really kind of the official, I guess position 328 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: of the agency through the eighties and nineties, that more 329 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: than likely if someone saw a mountain line, more than 330 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: likely it was the result of an escaped cat or 331 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: some a cat that someone couldn't care for anymore. They removing, 332 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: maybe the owner died, maybe something, and so what are 333 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: they gonna do? Just turn it out? So that was 334 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: really kind of the official position of the agency for 335 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: a couple of decades. Uh, that more n likely if 336 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: you saw a cat, it was probably a release cat 337 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: or an escaped cat. You know, that takes all the 338 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: fun I've seen a mountain line. Well, it certainly presented 339 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: a lot of gotcha opportunities, you know, for the agency. Uh, 340 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: for a long time, back in the early two thousand's 341 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: is probably when the agency started turning around saying more 342 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: than likely rather than being an escaped cap because a 343 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: lot of those captive breeders kind of fell out. You know, 344 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: when I was a kidulations yeah, and it just wasn't 345 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: the thing. I mean, I could remember, believe it or not. 346 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I knew two people that 347 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: I went to a grade school with that had pet 348 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: mountain lines. I mean, you know so so, I mean 349 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: back in the seventies, you know, it wasn't that odd 350 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: of a deal for someone to have a mountain line 351 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: as a pet. You know, we still have no proof. 352 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: A lot of people try to play gotcha all the 353 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: time with us and say, well, gaming Fish says that, 354 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: you know, we don't have mountain lines. Well, you know, 355 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: we've never said we don't have mountlines. What we've said 356 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: for the past forty years or plus years is that 357 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: we don't have any evidence of an established, reproducing population 358 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: of mountainlines. And has that changed, still has not changed. 359 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: We still don't have evidence of a reading population mountain 360 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: lions here. We do not. Well, let me ask you this, 361 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: do you feel like today in Arkansas there are mountain 362 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: lions that are living here year round? I think there 363 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: are mountain lions that live here year around. I think 364 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: virtually all of the mountain lions that we have documented 365 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: sightings of over the past, uh well since two thousand ten, 366 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: I feel like they're all males, you know, either young 367 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: males or older males. A lot of the picture evidence 368 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: translates to them being older males. I'm not talking really 369 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: old males, but mature males. And that would be very 370 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: characteristic of an expanding population of large carnivores, whether it 371 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: be bears or lions. You would start to see these 372 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: fringe areas that would start to get satellite males. And uh, 373 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people don't realize with mountain 374 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: lions is that you know, you're you're talking about a 375 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: young animal that gets pushed out of the population, a 376 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: young male that basically gets kicked out on the streets. 377 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's not something that they're just gonna travel 378 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: another fifty miles down the road and establish, you know, 379 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: a territory of their own. I mean, you're talking about 380 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: animals that have no qualms about traveling hundreds of miles 381 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: in order to find a suitable territory that has food, 382 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: cover and females. Well, in the absence of females, they're 383 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: not going to establish a territory. I mean, it's just 384 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: that simple. So when you think of the behavior that 385 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 1: takes place in these animals they move into, say if 386 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: they did come from the Dakotas they move into the Missouri, 387 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: they go down the Missouri drainage, they're starting to mature. 388 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: They're no longer six months old, they're a year old. 389 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: They're mature. Male. Uh So, there are a couple of 390 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: things that are driving that young mountain lion to exist. 391 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: One of them is food and the other one is reproduction. 392 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: And until he finds both of those, he's not So 393 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: he's looping down into Missouri and going back. Probably he 394 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: might be going back. He much might just continue to 395 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: keep going until he does find a female. And whether 396 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: that means he has to cross four or five six 397 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: states to do it, they'll do it. Wow. In the 398 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties movie Dumb and Dumber, Jim Carrey, when he's 399 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: confronted with the fact that his girlfriend is leaving him 400 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: forever and she gives him an inkling of hope that 401 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: perhaps she'll come back to him, he says, so you're 402 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: telling I feel like what Myron just said, and talking 403 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: about the dispersal of mountain lions and their ability to 404 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: travel such long distances give some credibility to the lore 405 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: of the Southern mountain lion because we have an established 406 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 1: population of lions in southern Florida and then in the 407 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: West and would not be unheard of for lions travel 408 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: that distance. So maybe there is something to all these 409 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: mountain lions sightings, regardless of the fact that many of 410 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: these sightings could have and very well may have been 411 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: captive lions released that people were seen. So do you 412 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: do you foresee a time like with the so with that, 413 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: with the habitat structure that we currently have between here 414 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: and these populations, do you forecast a time It might 415 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: be twenty years from now, fifty years from now, five 416 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: years from now. I don't know, will we have an 417 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: established breeding populations line, because what would typically happen, as 418 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: I understand dispersal of these large carnivores, is like the 419 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: males start making these satellite loops and then at some 420 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: point females, you know, like at some point we're gonna 421 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: get a picture of a female in Arkansas. Well, you know, 422 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: Missouri came up about four believe it's about four years ago. 423 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: And they collected some hair off of a confirmed sighting. 424 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: They confirmed that it was a female. Uh. The experts 425 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: that I have talked to about mountain lions, all of 426 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: them have been pretty consistent in saying that if you 427 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: do have a female in a geographic area, a male 428 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: will finder. It's just a matter of time. When you 429 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: do have a female show up, you will have a 430 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: breeding population. What I want to kind of talk to 431 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: you about now is like mountain lion folklore essentially in 432 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: places where they're historically haven't been lions in the last 433 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: hundred years. So in Arkansas we have those arcs and washtaws, 434 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: which would have these big vast sections of public land 435 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: that would be for all of our deer populations would 436 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: be less dense populations of deer than on private land. 437 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: There's less deer in the mountains than there are in 438 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: these agricultural areas, and civilizers, well, it seems to me 439 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: that there is a unorthodox shift in mountain lion folklore 440 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: in these like backwoods places, and I'm like, well, there's 441 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: not enough deer there, Like there there's there's not enough 442 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: game for these animals to be living. Like I think 443 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: people would have this idea that a mountain lion, if 444 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: he was living here, he'd be living way out and 445 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: you know x X Mountain, which is far back in there. 446 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: But what we're seeing with these lion sightings that you 447 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: guys are confirming is that they're not necessarily in the 448 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: backwoods there in places with higher deer density. Is that true? 449 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: I think that would be the natural place to set 450 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: up a territory exactly along the lines of what you're 451 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: speaking of. I'll give you an example. Custer, South Dakota, 452 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: is a very very small mountain town. And if you 453 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: look a lot of the mountain towns up in the 454 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: Black Hills, you know, they're very small communities in the 455 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: lower portions of these valleys with the road highways running 456 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: through them. And when you drive through them, you can 457 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: see the edge of town, you know, up on the 458 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: side of the mountain over there you can sit to 459 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: the left and right. And when we were driving through there, 460 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: one of the houndsmen that I was spent some time with, 461 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: he'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, a mount line 462 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: took a labrador from that guy's house right over there, 463 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: and we go down the road and well, that guy 464 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: was had his truck parked up at this you know, 465 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: this bar or whatever it was sitting on the edge 466 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: of town that you could see up there. But it's 467 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: on the edge of town. Well, they came down and 468 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: drug a deer out of that guy's truck, you know, 469 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: and he's telling me all these stories, and uh, you know, 470 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: mountain lions just don't have that secretiveness to them that 471 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: I really thought they did. I mean, I thought they 472 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: would stay, you know, a hundred miles away from a 473 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: civilization or whatever, and and really they're not. It kind 474 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: of cues back into what you were saying. They're gonna 475 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: they're gonna go, and they're gonna set up shop where 476 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: food is available, where it's the easiest, and where there's 477 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: the most of It would be more natural for mountain 478 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: line to set up an area that they're going to 479 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: stay in a territory in the heart of the Ozark 480 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: National Forest, or would it be more likely that he's 481 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: set up in a territory on the fringes of national forest. 482 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: Probably more likely to set up a territory on the 483 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: fringes of national forest. But you're still talking about an 484 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: animal leaven in prime mountain lion habitat. You're talking about 485 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: an animal that has home ranges of you know, hundred 486 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: plus square miles. So let's talk about where lines have 487 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: been seen in Arkansas and how you guys determine that 488 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: one is a sighting is valid. Probably a hundred and 489 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: fifty plus sightings that people contact us a year now 490 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: of those sightings that we're able to have physical evidence of, 491 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: whether it be a track, whether it be a game 492 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: camera photo, whether it be a phone photo video, whatever else, 493 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: something that we have physical evidence that we can go out. 494 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: We take a field investigation form. We go out on 495 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: any sighting that has physical evidence and we'll record it. 496 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: If it's a game camera photo, we're gonna record where 497 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: the picture was, you know, whether it was yes, verify 498 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: that it was taken from this camera at this spot. 499 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: You have background everything. You're doing an investigation to verify 500 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: that A, you know, it was a mountain line, B 501 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: it was taken at this location. Because there's a lot 502 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: of Internet hoaxes going out there. You know this this 503 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: mountain line was taken at a friend of mine's, friends, uncle's, 504 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, best cousins. Whatever camera last week comes out 505 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: that's been floating around the internet for six years and 506 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: it was. You know, I was gonna say that if 507 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: the game in fish gets a hundred and fifty sightings 508 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: per year, I know about fifty of those guys, and 509 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: I can tell you they're full of it. But what 510 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: bulls right down to it. For the last decade or so, 511 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: the amount of sightings that we have been able to 512 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: verify and hold onto your seat, the mountain sightings that 513 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: we have been able to verify per year averages to 514 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: about one wow, one to two sightings per year that 515 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: we're able to verify and say yes, that's without a 516 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: doubt amount line, What is your personal feeling on all 517 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: these other sightings? And just because someone can't verify sighting 518 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's not legit. It just means that 519 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: they just means that us as a as a conservation 520 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: agency here or a scientific agency. I mean, you know, 521 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: we can't. I can't go out there and say, well, 522 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: we've got a hundred mountain lines in the state because 523 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: we've had this many sightings. I mean, I can't gotta 524 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: have evidence. I gotta have evidence of it. I gotta 525 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: have proof of it. I mean, you know, we don't 526 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: just go out there and on on a whim and 527 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: and say we've got this mini bear, this mini deers. 528 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: So what's your gut about all these other sightings? Are 529 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: people wrong or are people right? And it's just not verifiable. 530 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: I think about ninety eight percent of the sightings that 531 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: we get our misidentification, what are they see in? Uh, 532 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: you'd be surprised at the amount of video or picture 533 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: sightings that are sent to me every year. And I'm 534 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: not talking about three or four. I'm talking about ten's 535 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: fifty sixty, you know, maybe more pictures or videos that 536 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: are sent to me every year that are housecats house cats? 537 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: You mean to tell me that people are mistaken house 538 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: cats for mountain lions, a fifteen pound cat versus a 539 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty pound cat. Believe it. Feral housecats are 540 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: estimated to number seventy million, maybe even more. They're everywhere, 541 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: and people don't understand scale often when they see an 542 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:02,239 Speaker 1: animal and get a picture of it. The biggest misidentification 543 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: is by far and away, Uh, domestic house cats are 544 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: just feral housecats. House cats in general. UH do have 545 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: a lot of bobcat pictures that are sent to me, 546 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: even videos of bobcats. And you know, there's some anatomical 547 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: features that bobcats possessed that housecats or mountain lions don't possess. 548 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: One of them, of course, is obvious, the bob tail. 549 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: But I've seen a lot of pictures where a hind 550 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: foot actually looks like a continuation of a tail, and 551 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: then you look up at the head of it and 552 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: you see these big, huge white dots on the backs 553 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: of the ears, which are specific to bobcats, not mountain lions. 554 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: Mountain lions don't have white patches on the back side. Okay, 555 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: here's the here's the question of the hour. Okay, I've 556 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: found living in the South, living in Arkansas, there's two 557 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: kinds of people. There's people that have seen mountain lions 558 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: and there are people that have not. So myran means, 559 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: taken out of his position at the Arkansas Game and 560 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: Fish Commission, have you ever seen a lion mountain lion 561 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: in Arkansas? Good? Thank goodness, firing. I wish I had. 562 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, you know, I tell people 563 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: this all the time, the amount of people that have 564 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: seen mountain lions and everything else. I mean, if you 565 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: think about that, it's it's it's a lot of people, 566 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: a lot of people claimed to have seen him, and uh, 567 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm not here to tell anybody that they didn't see 568 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: what they thought they saw. We're up to like since 569 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, we're up to nineteen verified sightings 570 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: in the last ten years in Arkansas. To understand why 571 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: people so badly want to believe in mountain lions, we're 572 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: gonna have to understand a bit about human nature. Dr. 573 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: Richard Back has been a clinical psychologist since nineteen seventy nine, 574 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: and he has some unique insight into why humans act 575 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: the way they do. Dr Back of the of the hundreds, 576 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: if not thousands, of mountain lions sightings that people would 577 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: have claimed over the years to have happened here in Arkansas, 578 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: and the actual number of verified sightings being so small, 579 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: why do people Why do people believe that they've seen 580 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: a lion when statistically they probably actually didn't. Well, it's 581 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: probably two things going on there. One is that it's 582 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: kind of an exciting thing to think is possible. And 583 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: if people have any sort of belief established already, you know, 584 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: whether they've read articles on mountain lions, or they had 585 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: an uncle or grandfather talked about the mountain lions. If 586 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: there's some connection somewhere and the person probably can't even 587 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: identify where it was. But if it's an established fact 588 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 1: that there are mountain lions, then when they see something 589 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: that can be fit into that perception, they'll they'll they'll 590 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: tend to do it, and then you can't talk them 591 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: out of it no matter what you show them, and 592 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: they are really confirming what they already believe or picked 593 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: up somewhere. Is there a psychological term that would describe 594 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: somebody that had a belief that may not even be true, 595 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: and then something happened and they slotted that event that 596 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: happened into a belief that wasn't real. Is there is 597 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: there a psychological term for that. Yes, it's called confirmation bias, 598 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: and it's just practically every person has it but is 599 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: unaware of it and would certainly deny it if you ask. 600 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: It's all over our lives. I guess, yeah, it's all 601 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: over our lives. We end up believing things not even 602 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: knowing where that comes from. In terms of what we 603 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: think is the best model car or or the best 604 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: football team or the best state to live in. We 605 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: end up believing that and we couldn't really even probably 606 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: voice reasons why We just like that, and then we 607 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: cherry pick any sword of evidence, whether it's from newspapers 608 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: or sports announcers or neighbors. But we cherry pick in 609 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: terms of selecting information that supports what we already believe. Yeah, 610 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: So it would be like really reasonable if if you 611 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: were a young child growing up in somebody that you 612 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: respected or maybe some of you didn't respect, told you 613 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: that there were mountain lines here, regardless of that was 614 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: like patently false, you would probably go through your life 615 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,760 Speaker 1: with a slot in your mind that there are potentially 616 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: mountain lines here. So if you saw a flash a 617 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: brown fur across the road, that might just easily slot 618 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: into that place and it just be fact inside of 619 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: your mind. Yes, yeah, that would happen. Can you tell 620 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: me about naive realism what that means. Yeah, Naive realism is, 621 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: I guess, in a sense, the foundation of confirmation bias. 622 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: Naive realism is really kind of uh, fancy term for 623 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: what I think we've probably all noticed, and that is 624 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: almost everyone else we deal with thinks that they're right. Uh. 625 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: And that's because most people do think and believe that 626 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: their way of perceiving the world and interpreting data and 627 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 1: selecting and making decisions. We all believe that we've come 628 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: up on the right way of living life. So it's 629 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: like you could be living just kind of you could 630 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: just kind of have this false reality. Yeah, well yeah, 631 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: lots of people do. And if anyone tries to convince 632 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,399 Speaker 1: them that they have a false reality, then they fall 633 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: back on confirmation by us to really ignore anything they're 634 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: saying that disputes what they believe and that, but they'll 635 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: select all sorts of data that confirms there body confirms 636 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: or bias. This is a great place to hear a 637 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: story that actually happened. Scott Brown is my longtime good friend. 638 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: He's a veteran woodsman, and I trust whatever the guy says. 639 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: You're gonna get a kick out of this story. But 640 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: I want you to ask yourself, which character in this 641 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 1: story are you? So you know where I where I work, 642 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: we sell hunting licenses, and usually the first the week 643 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: right before modern gun Deer season opens, it just gets 644 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: really busy. So I'm back there one night, I'm helping 645 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: out and just trying to help him sell licenses, and 646 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: a guy walks up and he says, Hey, I need 647 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: to buy a license, And I said okay, no problem. 648 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: I said what license you need and he said, well, 649 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: I just need the Big Game license, the annual Big 650 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: Game license. And said, okay, no problem. And so I 651 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: asked for his driver's license and I'm I'm plugging his information. 652 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: He says, well, that license allowed me to kill one 653 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: of these and I said, what is it? And he 654 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: shows me his phone. He's got this picture on his 655 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: phone and when he shows it to me, it is, 656 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: without question a bobcat. I mean it's it's, without question 657 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: a bobcat. I've seen a lot of bobcats and I'm 658 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,240 Speaker 1: a hundred percent certain it was a bobcat. Had speckles 659 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: on its belly. I mean it was. It's a bobcat, 660 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: no question. And I said, yeah, yeah, it's it's a 661 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: trail camera picture. Something he had on his trail camera 662 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: there around his house somewhere. And I said, yeah, yeah, 663 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: you shoot bobcats, coyotes and allow you shoot all that stuff. 664 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,399 Speaker 1: And when I said that, he was just I mean, 665 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: he just snapped at me. He just said, that's not 666 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: a bobcat. And I said, oh, it wasn't, and he 667 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: said no, and he kind of hands the phone back 668 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: over to me again. I'm thinking maybe I made a mistake. 669 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: So I look at it again and I come to 670 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: the same conclusion. It is a bobcat. I mean, there's 671 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: just no question about it. And of course, you know, 672 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: I didn't say anything. I just said, yeah, yeah, sure enough, 673 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: you know, and just kind of blew him off, you know, 674 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: as if he wants to believe that, he can believe that. 675 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 1: I suppose. Well, it gets better. So as he tells 676 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: me that there's three or four guys waiting and they're 677 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: they're just standing around us. They're waiting on us, you know, 678 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: so they can get a license. And the guy goes, 679 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: did you say you have a mountain line on camera? 680 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: And guy said yeah, yeah. So he kind of turns 681 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: his phone around and shows this other guy and it 682 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: kind of draws a crowd, and there's a three or 683 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: four guys there and they're all like, oh, man, sure enough, 684 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: you know it's a it's a big mountain line. Look 685 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: at that thing. And they're all just handing around there. 686 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: In the span of about one minute, he had convinced 687 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: five people standing back there that he had a mountain 688 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: line on camera, and every one of them believed it 689 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: and had no trouble believing it. The only person by 690 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: back there that thought otherwise was me, and it was 691 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: it was because it was clearly a bobcat. This is 692 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: how it started. Yeah, And I thought, man, this is 693 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: how the legends and the myths and all these things 694 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: you hear about people of seeing mountain lions get started. 695 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: It just takes one person to see one. Now, all 696 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: those five guys they left, I went wherever they went 697 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,359 Speaker 1: for the rest of the day and told how many 698 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: people they saw a mountain lion on some guys game camera. 699 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: And then thus, there's a mountain lion around and everybody's 700 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 1: seen it, when actually only one guy saw it. It 701 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: wasn't even a mountain lion. Now back to Myron, do 702 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: you want to delve into the black panther myth? Absolutely yes. 703 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: I meant to say that. In the South, particularly Myron, 704 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: you hear this. You hear people talking about black panthers 705 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: like I with my own ears, have heard countless grown 706 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: men that I believe to be like rational thinking people 707 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 1: tell me that they've seen black panthers. What's the deal 708 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 1: with that? Well, I'll speak in scientific terms of black panthers. 709 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,720 Speaker 1: We can't have this discussion without talking about black panthers. 710 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: My old, my, what a topic. Before we start, let 711 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: me ask you a question. Do you believe in black 712 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: panthers in North America? If you do or you don't, 713 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: I gay wrong? Te you? You know some people that do, 714 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: and they're probably normal, maybe even successful humans. I want 715 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: you to think about that for a minute. I was 716 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: shocked when my own father told me this story. When 717 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: I was a kid, would go to Bucks Nord ain't 718 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: Ali and Aunt Ali. They weren't an they ain't ain't 719 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: Ali and ain't Ali. And then you'd go down to 720 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: the Ali's house and she had the dog trot, and 721 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: you'd spend a night down there, and you'd hear a 722 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 1: panthers scream every now and then. Now, do you I 723 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: don't have to be honest with you. I would be 724 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: afraid that it was this cognitive disconnect where Lewin had 725 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: talked about it so much, and they talked about it 726 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,439 Speaker 1: so much that when you mean, when you were there, 727 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: it was like in this place you can hear panthers, 728 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: oh man. And when you drove you, when you drove 729 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: into Bucks, North, it was like if you were a 730 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: city boy and guys like you and I that have 731 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: a heart for the outdoors, even as a little kid. 732 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it would just be so exciting. The trees 733 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: were over the road, and when you pulled up an 734 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: ain't Alley's house, the yard was all sandy dirt, with 735 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: doodle bugs everywhere in this big old dog trot down 736 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: the middle, and a big old porch across the front, 737 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 1: and june bugs. We'd always catch june bugs and fly 738 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 1: those june bugs and we doodle bug and then at dark, 739 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: you know, case man, he's thinking panthers would scream, or 740 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: you know mountain lions. I think there's panther. I think 741 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 1: there's black mountain lions myself. Do you realize Well, I 742 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: mean I don't have a proof of it. I just 743 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: always have heard that. You've heard so you've heard of 744 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: cognitive DIC. I mean I just believed the propaganda. You 745 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 1: so you you have like you're seventy two years old, 746 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: that in Arkansas whole life, and you believe it. I'm 747 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: not worried about you believing that. I'm just trying to 748 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: get to the root of where that comes from. Hey 749 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: who told Hey, Hey, when when I when I was 750 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,800 Speaker 1: a kid, when when you'd have a group of kids 751 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: around and your favorite aunt would be there and she 752 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: would it would say, hey, tell us a story, and 753 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: they go, well, you know, there's just a little family 754 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: and when they were you know, they were walking home 755 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 1: one night and all of a sudden they looked around. 756 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 1: There's a black panther and they take the booty off 757 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: the baby. And you know those stories that just was 758 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,919 Speaker 1: all through was just always there. Yeah, you know, throw 759 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: a booty off, and then the diaper, and then the shirt, 760 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden he pitched the baby back. Anyway, 761 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: but i'd hear I'd hear adults talking about black panthers. 762 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 1: Now back to Myron, People for generations have called panthers 763 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 1: mountain lions, catamounts, cougars, lions. They're all the same animal, 764 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: you know. They have a whole litany of common localized 765 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,879 Speaker 1: names that people have called them, but when it comes 766 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: right down to it, they're all mountain lions. They're all 767 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,720 Speaker 1: the same animals. There's no other species in North America 768 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 1: of big cat, no currently on the land, well not 769 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: in the United States anyway. Well, jaguars down inside are 770 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: the only animal large cat that has known to exist 771 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: or have occurrence for a melanistic color face, which is 772 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: a quote black color phase are two of the large cats, 773 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: jaguars and leopards. Okay, so there has never been a 774 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: documented melanistic color phase of the mountain lion in history. Okay, 775 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:33,839 Speaker 1: so not even in people, not even in the Smithsonian Institute. 776 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: So if you think in terms of black panthers, what 777 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: most people are calling black panthers are black mountain lines, 778 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: and uh, scientifically the animals never existed. I think a 779 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: lot of it is folklore. I think a lot of 780 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: it is uh, misidentification, folklore, you know, things of that nature. 781 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: And uh, I mean, is it is it plausible that 782 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: a large black cat, jaguar or leopard could never occur 783 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: in Arkansas? It could if one of two things happened. 784 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: Either A it escaped from someone's cage somewhere and it 785 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: was a jaguar or a leopard, or b you had 786 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: maybe a jaguar move up from Central America into Arkansas, 787 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: which is just not plausible. Uh, you'd probably have just 788 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: as good a chance to see in an ostrich as 789 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 1: you would have black you know, jaguar. I have a 790 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: lot of people you know that getting mad at me. Well, 791 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: you're trying to tell me I didn't say it. No, 792 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: I don't try to tell anybody they didn't see what 793 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,399 Speaker 1: they think they saw, or someone they know didn't see 794 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: what they think through saw. I just stand on the 795 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: on the scientific facts of the issue and the scientific 796 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: fact behind the whole black panther deal. It's just that 797 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: that particular animal does not exist or it's never been 798 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,200 Speaker 1: documented to occur in a melanistic color face and black 799 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:14,839 Speaker 1: color face. Believing and trusting people is part of the 800 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: community structure of humankind. It's part of what separates us 801 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: from the animals and what's made us biologically successful as 802 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: a species. If we doubted everything people said and demanded 803 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: proof of everything, we wouldn't have made it past the 804 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 1: difficulty of our archaic past of slinging rocks and stuff 805 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 1: and huddling and caves. Blind trust in our fellow man 806 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,760 Speaker 1: is evidence of our humanity, and deep down I believe 807 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: that we want to believe people. Deep down, we want 808 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,319 Speaker 1: to trust our brother or sister. If there is any 809 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: good in the folk lore of the Mountain lion in 810 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: the black Panther, it's found in the social mechanics of 811 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: wanting to believe the best of your neighbor and taking 812 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,359 Speaker 1: your friend at his word. Perhaps we need some more 813 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: of that in today's time. Though mountain lions were certainly 814 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,640 Speaker 1: gone for the large part of the last hundred years 815 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 1: in the South, wouldn't you know it, The truth has 816 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:20,160 Speaker 1: swung back around and found us still sitting here believing 817 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: mountain lions are back. And this is a conservation success story. 818 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,279 Speaker 1: But it's also a story of how the truth, though 819 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: temporarily labeled as folklore and it was, has once again 820 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: been found as truthful. Mountain lions are here, and maybe 821 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: they always have been. And if anybody ever doubts that 822 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,839 Speaker 1: Gary Nwcomb or Brent Reeves did not see a mountain lion, 823 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: I'll punch him in the teeth, because I'll believe those 824 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:59,360 Speaker 1: two until the day I die. Long live the beast, 825 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: and long live the good word of our brother and 826 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: sister m HM.