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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the irs predicts Doge will actually

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Speaker 1: lose quite a lot of money for the United States.

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Speaker 2: We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Sykes stops by to talk about Pete hegsa's little

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Speaker 1: group chat problem. Then we'll talk to academic and author

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Speaker 1: of the Shadow Docket Stevid Fladdock about what is happening

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Speaker 1: with this Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: But first the news.

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Speaker 3: So Wali Postmaster Joy, a person that everyone has been

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Speaker 3: looking to get rid of for a long time on

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Speaker 3: the left, is no longer going to be leading the

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Speaker 3: post office.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to know, right, because Postmaster de Joy

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Speaker 1: has been unpopular, But there are things worse than Postmaster Joy, right.

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Speaker 1: For example, he has continued to keep the post office

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Speaker 1: running in a certain way. So, I mean, look, the

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Speaker 1: Joy is a great example of one of the failures

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Speaker 1: of the Biden administration. And again I've talked about some

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Speaker 1: of the really good policy stuff that the Biden administration passed,

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Speaker 1: like the Chips and Sciences Act. They did a lot

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Speaker 1: of good stuff, but one of the things they didn't do,

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Speaker 1: which was.

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Speaker 2: Really disappointing to a lot of us.

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Speaker 1: They were so by the letter of the law and

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Speaker 1: careful about things like the ups board of Directors that

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Speaker 1: they felt they could not fire the Joy because they

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Speaker 1: didn't have the votes on the board of directors.

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Speaker 2: Now, FYI, Donald Trump would.

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Speaker 1: Not have given a fuck about this, right, he would

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Speaker 1: have just gone in there like a bull in a

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Speaker 1: china shop. And again this gets the question of what

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Speaker 1: is the right amount when you're faced with a lawless

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Speaker 1: with the Republican Party that has foregone norms and institutions,

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Speaker 1: is the question to be so profoundly careful like Merrick Garland?

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Speaker 1: Or is the play to shore up norms and institutions?

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Speaker 1: And sometimes that means taking risks and doing things that

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Speaker 1: might not be exactly the way another place would do it.

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Speaker 1: So the answer is I don't know. Right, thank god,

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Speaker 1: that's way above my big grade. But to Joy has

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Speaker 1: now resigned, this can mean any number of things, right,

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Speaker 1: This could mean he's a GOP donor so he has

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Speaker 1: you know, been very trumpy, but he did keep the

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Speaker 1: post office running. Look, this administration has put worse people

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Speaker 1: in this right, I mean the true The one truism

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Speaker 1: is that Trump one point zero looks like Lincoln compared

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Speaker 1: to Trump two point zero. So it's possible they put

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Speaker 1: in someone who wants to privatize the mail. It's possible

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Speaker 1: they put in someone who wants to make the mail

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Speaker 1: ten times worse because they think it'll help Trump. There

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Speaker 1: are any number of terrible permutations that could come downstream

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Speaker 1: of this. I think what's important when you think about

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Speaker 1: trump Ism is think about the intended consequences, but also

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Speaker 1: think about the unintended consequences. So this will have intended consequences,

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Speaker 1: but like with so many things in Trump world, when

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Speaker 1: there's so much incompetence, there will also be unintended consequences.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's also sometimes surprising, surprising rulings, like

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court shockingly standing up to Trump on press freedom.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is technically not exactly that.

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Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court we saw yesterday they're not going

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Speaker 1: to take a case called New York Times v.

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Speaker 2: Sullivan.

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Speaker 1: It was in nineteen sixty four, landmark defamation case. We

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Speaker 1: actually had on this podcast a really smart journals from

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Speaker 1: the New York Times who talk to us about it.

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Speaker 1: This is a case from So this case got all

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Speaker 1: the way up to the Supreme.

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Speaker 2: Court with Steve win.

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Speaker 1: You'll remember Steve Winn as a casino magnet and also

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Speaker 1: a big trumper, right, big donor to Donald Trump. He

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Speaker 1: was pushing a story against the AP in the hopes

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Speaker 1: of getting this case looked at by the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, the goal of this was, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like the Gawker case, to open the door so

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Speaker 1: that everyday people could sue media organizations for you know,

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Speaker 1: quote unquote actual malice instead of the way it works

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Speaker 1: with the New York Times versus Sullivan is there's a

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Speaker 1: sort of little bit of a cutout for mistakes if

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Speaker 1: you make a mistake. This could have opened up to

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Speaker 1: any number of lawsuits, less and less press freedom. So

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Speaker 1: the fact that they didn't take this is good. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, they have.

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Speaker 2: Four years of being completely crazy.

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Speaker 1: Just because Barrett and Justice Roberts aren't complete partisan hacks

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Speaker 1: does not mean they get a parade for me. So

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a yet another season of

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Speaker 1: them remaking the country in completely insane wise.

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Speaker 3: YEP, agreed, So we should do the full disclosure. Former

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Speaker 3: guests of this podcast.

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Speaker 2: And she's coming back.

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Speaker 3: Love to hear it. Use Look she is running against

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Speaker 3: a longtime Democratic incumbinant, Jan Schakowski in Illinois ninth district,

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Speaker 3: and I thought her opening message was really really good

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Speaker 3: and what we need right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, this is the Democratic tea Party

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Speaker 1: and it's coming.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we've we've talked about this a lot.

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Speaker 1: Republicans were able to temper sort of the Democratic urges

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Speaker 1: were able to push a more corporatey Democratic party. That

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Speaker 1: corporatey Democratic Party lost, right, they lost. It turned out

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Speaker 1: zero Liz Cheney Democratic voters. Well, that's bad news for

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Speaker 1: the sort of more conservative Democrats. That's probably good news

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Speaker 1: for the party. Right, there's a message that resonates, and

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Speaker 1: it's not a kind of never Trump Republicanism. It's real

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Speaker 1: democratic values. And by the way, Democrats want to give

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Speaker 1: people stuff, Republicans want to take it away. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why this is so hard. But the other thing

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Speaker 1: is that Democrats are way too polite. They're super ossified.

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Speaker 1: They have all of these people who have been in

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Speaker 1: office forever, who are you know, who can't get better

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Speaker 1: jobs so want to stay and it's time for them

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Speaker 1: to go. I mean, this is a democratic tea party.

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Speaker 1: The truth is you do not especially and look, I

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Speaker 1: mean democrats said that this was an emergency right that

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Speaker 1: democracy was on the ballot.

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Speaker 2: I don't disagree.

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Speaker 1: But if that's true, that means you don't get to

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Speaker 1: just help your friends, you have to actually govern. And

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Speaker 1: that's going to mean that some of these people have

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Speaker 1: had these jobs forever are going to lose them. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's correct. So we'll see more of this.

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Speaker 1: I hope she wins. None of these seats should be safe, right,

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Speaker 1: They're not safe. This is crazy, and I think we'll

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Speaker 1: see more of this.

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Speaker 3: I think more than crazy, it's just accountability of that.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's time to start getting a referendum on

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Speaker 3: so or of the people who sat in these seats

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Speaker 3: and it kind of just kept them warm with very

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Speaker 3: milk toast votes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and done nothing.

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Speaker 3: So Molly, you wanted to talk about the protests. I

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Speaker 3: personally get invited to oats of them enough to say,

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Speaker 3: you know, I have a podcast to tape today. I

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Speaker 3: can't quite make the protest, but boy, they seem abundant

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Speaker 3: these days. I literally the other day was like, Wow,

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Speaker 3: that's a lot of noise. This old man is hearing

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, that's the type of noise I

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Speaker 3: like a protest.

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Speaker 1: Look, this is the other part of the Democratic Tea Party,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people maybe don't like this, but

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Speaker 1: this is where it's going, is that American people are

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Speaker 1: fucking mad. I actually wrote about this today in my

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Speaker 1: Vanity Fair piece. Bernie and AOC had a rally in

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Speaker 1: Colorado where they were expecting, you know, a couple thousand people,

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Speaker 1: and they got thirty thousand people. And I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: what's happening everywhere, right, is that voters are worried.

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Speaker 2: They are not happy.

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Speaker 1: They see this right, Like us in the bubble, you know,

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Speaker 1: we only sort of see what we see, But here

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Speaker 1: we're seeing the rest of the country is mad, and

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Speaker 1: they are protests, and there are a number of other

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Speaker 1: things that only happen when people are mad. Right, People

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Speaker 1: are going to their congress people, they're going to these

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Speaker 1: open houses, these town halls, and even like they had

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Speaker 1: a town hall where the guy didn't show up and

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Speaker 1: they just screamed at the chair, Like this kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff is real. And the good news is the Democrats.

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Speaker 1: JP Pritzker's chief of staff, I talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to say it again because I think

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Speaker 1: this is the real question. The fight going on in

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Speaker 1: the Democratic Party right now is not between hard life

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Speaker 1: left and moderate. It's between those who want to fight

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Speaker 1: and those who want a cave. And team fight stretches

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Speaker 1: across all ideological aspects of the party. Misread this at

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Speaker 1: your own apparel. So my question to you, Representative Jeffries,

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Speaker 1: my question to you, Chuck Schumer, is our you team

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Speaker 1: fight or our you team cave. Charlie Sykes is the

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Speaker 1: author of the newsletter to the Contrary and the book

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Speaker 1: How the Right Loss Its Mind Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics, Charlie.

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Speaker 4: Sykes, Jesus, which something was happening in the world that

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Speaker 4: we could talk about.

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Speaker 1: You came for group chat, but you stayed for what

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Speaker 1: the fuck is happening in Wisconsin?

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Speaker 4: You know it is amazing. This is not New York,

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Speaker 4: this is not California, This is not Texas or Florida.

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Speaker 4: It's Wisconsin. And it looks like spending on the state

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court race is going to edit one hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Elon Musk could parachute in here and you

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Speaker 4: on handout big checks to every voter in the state,

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Speaker 4: which basically is what he's doing. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk is all in on this state Supreme Court race,

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Speaker 4: which could in theory, flip the State Supreme Court from

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Speaker 4: a liberal majority to a conservative majority. But it is crazy.

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Speaker 4: We've had intense races before, but nothing of this scope

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Speaker 4: or the stakes.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about what that looks like.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of money for the Wisconsin media market.

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Speaker 4: No offense, no, no, that is my point. I mean,

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Speaker 4: we only have one big media market unless you're going

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Speaker 4: up into Minneapolis, so it's completely flooded the zone. So

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Speaker 4: you get mail all the time. There's radio ads, there's

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Speaker 4: television ads, and also this weird thing that these Musk

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Speaker 4: backed groups are doing. They're putting out.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it's more than just text messages, but I get

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Speaker 4: the text messages saying, you know, Susan Crawford, who is

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Speaker 4: the liberal candidate, Susan Cross for Progressive Champion, who favors

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Speaker 4: the opposite of incarcerating criminals, and it looks like it's

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Speaker 4: supporting her, but what it is is a must campaign

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Speaker 4: to portray her as this really out of touch defund

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Speaker 4: the police touchy feely progressive. You know, on one level

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Speaker 4: it's kind of sophisticated. On another level, it's just the

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Speaker 4: rank dishonesty of it that they're doing a false flag

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Speaker 4: campaign here. And frankly, you have to look really closely

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Speaker 4: to determine. I mean, I actually when I first got

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Speaker 4: the first text, I'm thinking, Wow, this is interesting. This

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Speaker 4: Susan Crawford is running this far to the left. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I'm really not sure that's the sweet spot in Wisconsin politics.

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Speaker 4: And then I clicked on the link and it's like, no,

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Speaker 4: there's just no way that this is for real.

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Speaker 2: That is wild.

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Speaker 1: So it's like they're advertising on the sphere. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's no Wisconsin sphere. It's meant to be a joke.

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Speaker 1: But where else can you spend that much money?

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Speaker 4: I really don't know. I mean, that's really an interesting

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Speaker 4: question where where all the money is going. But you're

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Speaker 4: talking about, you know, massive contributes, and by the way,

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Speaker 4: there's also contributions you know, from the Democratic Party and

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Speaker 4: from liberal billionaires as well. But Musk's involvement and Trump's

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Speaker 4: involvement is extraordinary. Like, I don't honestly know the answer

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Speaker 4: to your question of how you'd spend that money. I've

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Speaker 4: been in this media market for my entire career and

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Speaker 4: unless you buy every single spot on every single television station,

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Speaker 4: and I'm not even sure that's the most effective way.

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Speaker 4: But every day I get mail for the conservative candidate,

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Speaker 4: the right wing candidate for State Supreme Court, Brad Shimmel,

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Speaker 4: and every single piece of literature, and I kid you,

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Speaker 4: not shows Shimmel with Donald Trump, and it makes the

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Speaker 4: appeal that you have to vote for Shimmel because he

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Speaker 4: will protect Donald Trump, he will advance Donald Trump. These

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Speaker 4: radical liberals will block Donald Trump. So Donald Trump and

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk have made this a referendum on them. But

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Speaker 4: the amount of money just creates this big question mark.

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Speaker 4: Does it backfire or does it allow them to shape

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Speaker 4: the entire narrative? And you know, we're going to find

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Speaker 4: out very short the elections April first.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And that's so interesting to me, is that, like Trump,

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Speaker 1: what you really see here And I've said this a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like it is something we just don't

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Speaker 1: talk about enough, which is Trump's brand is very good

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Speaker 1: and Democratic brand is not so good.

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Speaker 2: But you know it's really not good. Is the Republican brand?

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Speaker 1: I mean that said Democrats right now, it's not a

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Speaker 1: good moment, and that people are very mad at the party,

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Speaker 1: including the base is mad at the party, which is

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Speaker 1: an interesting phenomenon which we can talk about in a minute.

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Speaker 1: But what is so interesting when you talk about those

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Speaker 1: Bradshamel advertisements.

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Speaker 2: Is that they know that the really the only.

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Speaker 1: Way to get a Republican to win in this atmosphere

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Speaker 1: is to just say Trump likes them, and that doesn't

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Speaker 1: always work, as we've seen, you know, we saw, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Carrie Lake is a great example of how trump Ism

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily scale well.

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Speaker 4: And again, this is not a red state, this is

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Speaker 4: a very even the balance state. And so yes, Trump's

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Speaker 4: brand is strong among the Republican base. And I think

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Speaker 4: that the theory of the case is that you will

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Speaker 4: turn out those low propensity voters that turned out in November.

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Speaker 4: They're not aiming across the aisle here. This is if

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Speaker 4: we get a really huge Republican turnout, we can swamp

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Speaker 4: the Democrats. So the Democratic challenge in Wisconsin and especially

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Speaker 4: these lower turnout elections is always maximizing the turnout from

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Speaker 4: Dane County in Milwaukee County eroding Republican leads in the suburbs.

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Speaker 4: But it is an interesting, you know, moment, because we

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Speaker 4: will find out whether or not Donald Trump's brand is

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Speaker 4: is that strong here, and we will find out whether

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk's brand is strong enough if he wins here.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think, look, I mean, the stakes for

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Speaker 4: Wisconsin are huge on abortion, on redistricting, on public employee unions.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, the actual substance of the court.

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Speaker 4: But I also think the imagery of Elon Musk coming

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Speaker 4: into I won't say a random state, but you know,

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Speaker 4: spreading across the country with massive contributions is really going

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Speaker 4: to be a test of his role as a powerbroker

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Speaker 4: and how much juice he has. And if he wins,

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Speaker 4: it will certainly reinforce his power within the Republican Party.

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Speaker 4: On the other hand, if he stumbles here in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 4: it's going to be a warning sign. So, I mean,

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Speaker 4: the stakes for Elon Musk's clout, which right now I

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Speaker 4: don't think can be overstated. Republicans are just terrified of

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Speaker 4: him because they know that he will drop more money

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Speaker 4: than God on a primary challenge, and in Wisconsin, he's

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Speaker 4: really flexing his muscles here, So we're going to see

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Speaker 4: very very soon. So this is a local election that

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Speaker 4: will have real national consequences.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we got to talk about the group chat?

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Speaker 4: Oh please please?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Goldberg added to a group chat which includes the

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense, includes Mike Walt's National Security, includes S

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Speaker 1: and M, which could not be more approposed, Stephen Miller.

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Speaker 4: And of course the Vice president JD Vance's.

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Speaker 1: Right, the Vice President, Like, is that the greatest thing

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Speaker 1: to ever happen to anyone?

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Speaker 4: It is so extraordinary, And the more you read about,

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Speaker 4: the more you think about it, the more what the

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Speaker 4: fuck just happened? Is it? I mean, it is just amazing,

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Speaker 4: the recklessness, the carelessness, the arrogance of this. And somebody

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Speaker 4: wrote this morning, I saw we do need to remember

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Speaker 4: that in twenty sixteen, Donald Trump rode to the White House,

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Speaker 4: you know, largely on the basis of concerns about national

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Speaker 4: security and Hillary Clinton and her servers. I mean, what

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Speaker 4: the hell?

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Speaker 5: I mean?

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Speaker 4: There are just so many aspects to this, including the

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Speaker 4: incredible incompetence of allowing someone to be on this call,

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Speaker 4: the arrogance of using a signal for these communications, because

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Speaker 4: I think at some point you need to recognize, Hey,

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Speaker 4: if they did this this badly, they've probably done it before,

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Speaker 4: you know, in other cases, And you'd have to be

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Speaker 4: very naive not to think that the Russians, the Chinese,

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Speaker 4: the Arabians, and the North Koreans are not listening in

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Speaker 4: to these these idiots.

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Speaker 2: On everything, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not just the Atlantic that's getting added

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Speaker 1: to the group chat. I think that's a top one.

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Speaker 1: I actually want you to talk about what is not

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Speaker 1: in this article, because Goldberg has done a bunch of

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Speaker 1: interviews and has said that there's actually stuff he didn't

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Speaker 1: put in this for national security reasons.

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Speaker 4: No, he was very very careful about it, and that

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Speaker 4: he needed to be careful about it. I mean, my

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Speaker 4: initial concern was that they would come after him for

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Speaker 4: violating something, but I don't see any.

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Speaker 5: Indication of that.

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Speaker 4: But again, wait five five minutes. No, he was obviously

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Speaker 4: very very careful not to reveal secrets, not to reveal

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Speaker 4: identities of people in sensitive positions, or the names of

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Speaker 4: certain targets, anything that would have endangered our men and

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Speaker 4: women in arms. But if somebody else was listening in

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Speaker 4: to this clearly unsecured communication, they would have all of that,

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Speaker 4: and I think that that's important. And I also think, look,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, there's a bigger pick sure here

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Speaker 4: that this administration has been moving with shock and awe,

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Speaker 4: and everybody's terrified of standing up against them, and the

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Speaker 4: Democrats are in disarray. It is worth reminding ourselves that

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Speaker 4: these people are dangerous, there's no question about it. But

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Speaker 4: they're also idiots and they're deeply incompetent. Now that's not

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Speaker 4: completely reassuring, because it's the same sort of incompetence that

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Speaker 4: you will see with the handling of secure data from

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Speaker 4: say the Social Security or the IRS, as Elon Musk

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Speaker 4: moves through that. With the we're experiencing right now what

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Speaker 4: could be the largest data breach in human history in

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Speaker 4: the hands of people named big Balls.

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Speaker 2: Big Balls, yes, with the broccoli haircut.

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Speaker 4: And how confident can we be that they're going to

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Speaker 4: take better care of that information?

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Speaker 2: So not confident at all.

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Speaker 4: We have all of the stars kind of aligning here

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Speaker 4: just to remind us who these people are, and it's

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Speaker 4: fascinating to watch them try to spin their way out

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Speaker 4: of this without much success so far except to your

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Speaker 4: maga Fox News base.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so let's just do two more minutes

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Speaker 1: on this, because one of the things that I saw

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Speaker 1: today was Trump's press secretary. What happens when something really

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Speaker 1: big like this sprigs is that they can't figure out

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Speaker 1: how to message it, right, Like, there's so much of

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Speaker 1: what we see out of Trump World has to be

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Speaker 1: workshopped so much because a lot of these people are

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Speaker 1: not that smart, so they don't know how to message this,

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Speaker 1: so they're all over the place. You had Hegseth getting

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Speaker 1: off the plane and saying it's not real and everyone

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Speaker 1: knows that the Atlantic is trash. Then you got Carolyn

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Speaker 1: Levitt I want to talk about this Carolyn Levitt tweet

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Speaker 1: because she says Jeffrey Goldberg is well known for his

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Speaker 1: sensational ast spin. Okay that nobody would say that, I

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Speaker 1: mean really right, I mean in.

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Speaker 2: True or false.

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Speaker 4: Look, he has the receipts here. We know that they

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Speaker 4: hate him, and I guess that's also what makes this

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Speaker 4: story so extraordinaries of all of the journals, was in

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Speaker 4: the world right, great Goldberg and the Atlantic. I mean,

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Speaker 4: this would be as if as if Joe Biden was

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Speaker 4: having a national security call and Charlie Kirk and Steve

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Speaker 4: Bannon were on the line. I don't even mean to

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Speaker 4: compare them. But the whole thing about it's sensational. He

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Speaker 4: has the receipts, you see the actual text messages, and frankly,

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Speaker 4: given what actually happened, there's no way to sensationalize it

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Speaker 4: because it is.

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Speaker 2: It's sensational, sational, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: But also, just to get back to this tweet, One,

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Speaker 1: no war plans were discussed, so clearly she's daring him

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Speaker 1: to release the war plans. Two, she says no classified

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Speaker 1: material were sent on the thread. Right, clearly that's fucking bullshit.

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Speaker 1: But also three, the White House Counsel's Office has performed

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Speaker 1: guidance on a number of different platforms. Anyway, the point

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Speaker 1: is what Jake Sherman from punch Bowl also not some

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Speaker 1: crazy leb says, right, I mean, like, by the way,

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Speaker 1: no one is a liberal in any of this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and even though jeff has published a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that the Trump administration doesn't like, he is very much

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Speaker 1: ideologically about national security. Sherman says, the risk here for

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Speaker 1: the White House is they are prodding.

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Goldberg into releasing the entire thread.

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't think that he will because he's a

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Speaker 4: patriot and he's not going to do that. And if

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Speaker 4: he did do that, they're legal jeopardy. So I don't

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Speaker 4: think he's going to do that. But I think right

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Speaker 4: now the question is who will they escape?

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Speaker 5: Goat?

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Speaker 4: Who's Donald Trump going to blame? You know, he's too

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Speaker 4: invested in Pete Hegsith, who, by the way, is disgracing himself.

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Speaker 4: Are they going to throw Mike Walls under the bus?

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Speaker 4: I still think that they're going to circle the wagons

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Speaker 4: because as we know, Trump has limited loyalty, but he

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Speaker 4: will never acknowledge that he made a mistake. He will

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Speaker 4: never concede that he's screwed up here. So they're in

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Speaker 4: a trick box at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we are living in a perfect storm here right

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Speaker 1: Like you have a bunch of federal workers who are

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Speaker 1: demoralized and defenestrated, right They've been fired, been rehired, They're furious,

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Speaker 1: they are terrified. You have an administration that is super

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Speaker 1: incompetent and needs them, needs federal workers to protect them.

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Speaker 1: It is only a matter of time before this whole

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Speaker 1: thing implodes spectacularly.

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Speaker 4: You would hope. So I feel we've had this conversation.

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Speaker 4: Over the last ten years, they tend to escape.

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Speaker 1: But even Trump one point zero, there were so many

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Speaker 1: scandals like this.

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Speaker 4: Well, and also you had a million people who ended

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Speaker 4: up dying of COVID. You know, there is that. I

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Speaker 4: think that the thing to watch is that once that

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Speaker 4: sense of vulnerability begins to grow, maybe people will stop

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Speaker 4: bending the knees so quickly. Because right now there's the

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Speaker 4: sort of the sense not sort of the sense I

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Speaker 4: mean among law firms and universities and politicians that resistance

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Speaker 4: is futile, that you cannot stand up against the borg.

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Speaker 4: Therefore you need to cut the best deal that you can.

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Speaker 4: But but what happens if you begin to see that

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Speaker 4: you know, they're weak, they are vulnerable. You know, if

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Speaker 4: we actually do push back against them, they might back off.

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Speaker 4: The vulnerability is the key thing here, and also the

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Speaker 4: recognition that these people are idiots, these people are not competent.

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Speaker 4: I think there was a sense growing in people's heads like, man,

438
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 4: they have a plan, they have this blueprint, you know,

439
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 4: and they're moving so much quicker, and they have a

440
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 4: strategy and we are in disarray. Well, they may have

441
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 4: a strategy, but that doesn't mean, they're not idiots, and

442
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 4: this is really important to cling to.

443
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: No, I agree, and I think it's really worth just

444
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: like talking about this for another minute, which is these people,

445
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 1: they are idiots.

446
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: They have no plan.

447
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: And what we saw in trom one point zero is

448
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: that resistance works. And what doesn't work is what's happening

449
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: right now, not resisting giving up saying like ooh, it

450
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: might be scary for me. The reality is if you

451
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: push back, they stop. Like That's what we've seen again

452
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 1: and again. The reason RFK Junior is the Director of

453
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: Health and Human Services is in the cabinet is because

454
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: no one fucking pushed back. Could have Collins, Murkowski and

455
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: one other any other senator could have pushed back, and

456
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: that guy.

457
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: Would not be right.

458
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: Cassidy is a doctor, could have pushed back and none

459
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: of this would have happened.

460
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: So the reality is pushback works.

461
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: You have to push back in order to protect our

462
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: norms and institutions. And by the way, voters want it.

463
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 1: Like what we're seeing around the country is democratic.

464
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: Voters are furious.

465
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, there's no question about it. Look, I mean

466
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 4: I think the most the most depressing active appeasement was

467
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 4: that the big law firm, Paul Weiss. This is a

468
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 4: law firm that rakes in two point six billion dollars,

469
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 4: but which felt the need to kiss Donald Trump's toes.

470
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 4: The assumption, of course, is that somehow this makes them safe,

471
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 4: that they won't face the retribution of the federal government.

472
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 4: But the reality is that every time somebody caves in,

473
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 4: it emboldens them, It emboldens the jackals, it depresses and

474
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 4: demoralizes the other targets. And as soon as Paul Weiss

475
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 4: cut that deal, you notice they they issued in order

476
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 4: that targets every single law firm in America. I mean

477
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 4: they you know, we say they don't have a plan,

478
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 4: but they in some ways they do have a plan.

479
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 4: And the plan is to intimidate the federal judiciary, to

480
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 4: discredit the justice system, and to intimidate lawyers to think

481
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: twice that if somebody goes after Molly Jong Faster Charlie Sykes,

482
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 4: we better not represent them, because you know that would

483
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 4: be an existential threat. So you would hope that the

484
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 4: legal profession would understand the stakes and would stand up,

485
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 4: because if they did stand up, shoulder to shoulder collective action.

486
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: I think that I think these guys would back off.

487
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 4: But what they're realizing is they're so timid. They're so

488
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 4: timorous that you can split them up and pick them

489
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 4: off one at a time. You know that they won't

490
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 4: hang together, We'll hang them all separately, and and and that,

491
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 4: and that plan is working at least for the moment.

492
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: I mean, what's good is that a bunch of other

493
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: law firms were like fuckio, and we're like, we're not

494
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: going to do that. And we just have to see

495
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: more of that, right, Like the President Princeton talked about

496
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: how he wasn't going to bend the KNAE. We just

497
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: need to see more of that exactly because the reality

498
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: with Trump world is if you give in to them,

499
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: you cannot win.

500
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: You will not win. Appeasement does not work exactly.

501
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 4: This is a lesson that should be very very clear.

502
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: And I guess part of the concern is that there

503
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 4: are no limits on what Trump is prepared to do,

504
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: and he's using the cudgel of the federal government, using

505
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 4: government power to coerce private settlements. The corruption is so breathtaking,

506
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 4: and I think that there's a loss of faith that

507
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 4: it will be held accountable for that. But the reality

508
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 4: is that a lot of the things people are caving

509
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: in to, like when ABC settled the libel suit, CBS

510
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: may as well the attacks on the law firms. These

511
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 4: are all lawless, they are all unconstitutional. If they actually

512
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: fought back, I think they would win a lot of

513
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 4: what the administration is doing is completely into in a

514
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 4: court of law. If people just took a deep breath

515
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 4: and said, you know what, you know, we may not

516
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 4: want to fight, but we need to have this fight.

517
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 4: And if we have this fight, we will win. It's

518
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: the surrender when you hold the high ground. That's I

519
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 4: think the most disconcerting to me right now. It's like, seriously, guys,

520
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 4: you will win these lawsuits. You will win these cases.

521
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: Of course, why would you cave.

522
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 4: In unless you're the cowardice and the fear is just

523
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 4: you know, penetrated into your bones too deeply.

524
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, so incredibly true. And I think that's a

525
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: good point. And remember, you know, Rick Wilson, everything Trump

526
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: touches sooner or later. You know so many people from

527
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: Trump one point zero. I mean, think about Rudy Giuliani,

528
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: like it never ends well for anyone.

529
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 4: Well, I keep waiting for all that. Yes, absolutely and

530
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 4: yet people continue to flock to the banner. People keep

531
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 4: thinking it's going to be different with me, and right now,

532
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 4: let's face it, they feel that the winds that they're back,

533
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 4: at least before this incredible fuck with the phone call.

534
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 4: I get. My one piece of advice, though, is I

535
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 4: do think that it's very important to pick the targets,

536
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 4: pick the issues that you want to do it. This issue,

537
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 4: I think is extraordinary. This should be a major scandal.

538
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 4: It really undermines everything Trumps said about keeping America safe

539
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 4: and keeping America strong. I think what's happening with Social

540
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 4: Security is just an extraordinary story. I was on television

541
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 4: late last night with somebody I don't remember his name.

542
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 4: I don't want to pick on him, but he was saying,

543
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 4: you know, they have this concerted plan to undermine social Security.

544
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: This is what they're doing, and this is why they're

545
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 4: doing it. I completely disagreed. I don't think they had

546
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: the slightest fucking idea what they're doing with Social Security.

547
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 4: I think if you listen to the rhetoric about Social Security,

548
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: you realize the downside of stalking your administration with completely

549
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 4: out of touch, tone deaf billionaires who have no idea

550
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 4: what they are messing with. And the headline in the

551
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 4: Washington Post about how the cuts are really you know,

552
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 4: bringing the Social Security Administration to the brink of collapse. No,

553
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 4: there's a reason why we've always talked about this as

554
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 4: America's political third rail. So I think that at some

555
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 4: point choose the issues Donald Trump wants to talk about

556
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 4: the eighty twenty issues, the issues were eighty percent of

557
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 4: the public is behind him, whether it's you know, gang

558
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: members or whatever. There are eighty twenty issues that he

559
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 4: and Elon Musk are on the wrong side of, and

560
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 4: Democrats need to really focus on those.

561
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: Charlie Sikes, thank you.

562
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 4: It is always a pleasure Molly.

563
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: Stephen Vladdock is a CNN contributor, author of The Shadow Docket,

564
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: and professor at Georgetown University. Welcome to Fast Politics. Welcome back,

565
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: Steven Dan Molly.

566
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 5: I mean, it's great to be with you. Although I

567
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 5: wish we could find like a happier story Sunday, like

568
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 5: you know, rainbows and unicorns and Steve Wade's here to

569
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 5: tell you all about them.

570
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: You had a peace last Sunday in the Times Opinion

571
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: and I was reading it and I was like, Oh,

572
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: this guy is so smart and I can just text.

573
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: Him and talk to him.

574
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: Like, you know, as much as everything sucks, there is

575
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,239
Speaker 1: something so fucking cool about reading something smart and then

576
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: knowing that I can actually talk to that smart person

577
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: about said smart thing.

578
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 5: Isn't that like much of what you write, Molly?

579
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.

580
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: But it is a horrible, horrible time to be a

581
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: person who believes in the rule of law and American

582
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: norms and institutions. But and maybe this is me as

583
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: a cock eyed optimist, but it does feel like we

584
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: are seeing firsthand why the law matters.

585
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 5: I totally agree with that. I actually think that, you know,

586
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 5: if we get through this somehow, there's been a remarkable

587
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 5: public exhibit. I mean everywhere you look of why the

588
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 5: law matters, of why do process matters, of why institutions matter,

589
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 5: of why you know, nerdy things that law professors like

590
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 5: me holler about from the rooftops matter. And you know,

591
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 5: maybe it's going to take a lot of time and

592
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 5: effort to build back those institutions and those ideals, but

593
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 5: at least the costs and the sticks of not having

594
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 5: them are now visible for all to see.

595
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: I want you to talk about this piece that you

596
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: wrote last week, which has a completely new title that

597
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: it did five hundred and forty one comments ago, and

598
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: you write about all the stuff we need to be

599
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: worrying about right now. My hottest take is that as

600
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: much as I love to criticize the Supreme Court, I.

601
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: Don't know, do you ever listen to this podcast five

602
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: to four?

603
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 5: Yep?

604
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: Right?

605
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,239
Speaker 2: So they hate like they are so.

606
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I was texting with actually Kate Shaw, who's

607
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: such a smart writer and lawyer and thinker, and I

608
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: was saying, like, I feel shitty, but I can only

609
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: imagine how shitty I would feel if I understood exactly

610
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: why all of this was illegal. Yeah, that tracks I

611
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: actually don't think the Supreme Court is. I actually have

612
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: a little nuggetive faith in them.

613
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 5: I agree with that, Molly, and I say this as

614
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 5: someone who has is very closely associated with very strong

615
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 5: criticisms of this Supreme Court. I don't have a lot

616
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 5: of faith in the Supreme Court, but I have sub

617
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 5: faith in the Supreme Court. And I think it's really

618
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 5: striking that, you know, Chief Justice Roberts was impelled to

619
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 5: actually make this remarkably rare public statement on Tuesday you know,

620
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 5: basically saying, hey, like Trump, knock it off. We don't

621
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 5: impeach judges, and we don't talk about impeaching judges just

622
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 5: because you don't like their ruins. That's what appeals are for.

623
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 5: That may have struck a lot of folks as a

624
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 5: remarkably milk toast comment from the Chief Justice. I actually

625
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,239
Speaker 5: think it was a striking comment, and the fact that

626
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 5: he made it at all.

627
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. And actually, I can't believe

628
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: that was only Tuesday. I thought that was three weeks ago.

629
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: Like when you said tuesday, I was like, and actually

630
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: I just looked up your piece and it was from Wednesday.

631
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, I thought that was a big deal.

632
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: And the reason I thought it was a big deal

633
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: was this Supreme Court has really tried not to ject

634
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, except for the insane immunity decision.

635
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: And in fact, you wrote an entire book about the

636
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 1: shadow docket, which you were very critical about. Will you

637
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: explain to us about the shadow docket and and why

638
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: this Court sort of tries in a way not to

639
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: sort of get involved in things that are not exactly

640
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: on the schedule.

641
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 5: Sure, I mean, so that the shadow docket is just

642
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 5: this evocative shorthand that it wasn't even mine. I stole

643
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 5: it from Will Bode, who's a conservative calm law professor

644
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 5: at Chicago. But the basic point of the book was

645
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 5: to help folks to understand all the ways in which

646
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court exercises power and how it gained all

647
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 5: that power, besides the big fancy, you know, fifty to

648
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 5: sixty seventy page decisions that they hand out at the

649
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 5: end of each term. And you know, we've seen Molly

650
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 5: a lot of those in the last couple of years

651
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 5: that have had massive effects, whether it's you know, the

652
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 5: Alabama redistricting cases or the Texas abortion case, or you know,

653
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: the first round of the Trump Community case. And I

654
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 5: guess you know, one of my real goals is to

655
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 5: try to help everybody, you know, whatever your politics and

656
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 5: whatever your background, have a better sense for how the

657
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 5: Supreme Court operates, and for how much control it has

658
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 5: over everything it does, and how that auto shape our

659
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 5: perspective and our and our perception of the justices, Which

660
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 5: gets back to why you know, someone like me reacts

661
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 5: to the Roberts quote perhaps differently from someone who doesn't

662
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 5: watch the Court is closely because it is so clearly

663
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 5: out of the norm, and it's so clearly a break

664
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 5: from both the Court's protocols and his own normal behavior

665
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 5: that it's, you know, it's it really is to some

666
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 5: degree the you know, the canary and the coal mine

667
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 5: stopping the same. And that's that should in some respects

668
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 5: molly alarm us, but also I think in bold in

669
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 5: us because it suggests that even John Roberts is calling

670
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 5: enough of this.

671
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and he did, he made this statement

672
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: and then we saw him and bear It rule against

673
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: some of the more craven of Trump world's plays. So

674
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: there's really a sense in which the Supreme Court is

675
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 1: probably not going to rubber stamp some of the really

676
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: crazy shit, which again this is still, you know, a

677
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: sad statement.

678
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: But also an important one.

679
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: It feels like we're hurtling towards, I mean, with the

680
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: deportation staff, some kind of slow rolling constitutional crisis maybe.

681
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 5: I mean, I think there's a real question here about

682
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 5: just how far the administration really wants to go and

683
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 5: pushing this. So the Venezuelan flights to El Salvador. Part

684
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 5: of why this has become such a flashpoint is because

685
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 5: the administration, for whatever reason, has decided that this is

686
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 5: the hill it wants to die on, removing people it

687
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 5: claims to be dangerous Venezuelan gang members. When it turns out,

688
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 5: by the way that some of them got picked because

689
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 5: they have like real Madrid tattoos, is apparently something that

690
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 5: they think they can win on in the court of

691
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 5: public opinion. And this is why I think it's so

692
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 5: important for folks to understand that, like what really is

693
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 5: implicated by those cases is due process. You know, is

694
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 5: there a right on the part of someone the government

695
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 5: just points at and says you are a Venezuelan gang member.

696
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 5: Does anyone have a right to say, actually, I'm not

697
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 5: before they get sent into a Salvadorian prison, Because if

698
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 5: the answer is no, then what's to stop the government

699
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 5: from pointing at any of us and saying that. But

700
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 5: this is why I also think it's like really revealing

701
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 5: that this is the case that provoked the Chief Justice.

702
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 5: I mean, it was, you know, the judge who's presiding

703
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 5: over this litigation in the DC Federal District Court, a

704
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 5: guy named Jeb Bosberg. Is no ideologue, he's no radical,

705
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 5: And it was when Trump called for his impeachment that

706
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 5: we finally saw the Chief Justice issue of public statement.

707
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 5: I don't think that's a coincidence, Molly. I mean, I

708
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 5: think you know, the Chief Justice understands that this case

709
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 5: too is special among all of the ones that are

710
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 5: out there.

711
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, because so this is a judge.

712
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: Judge Bosburg was put on the First Court by George

713
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: w in the second Court by Obama.

714
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 5: So yeah, on the DC's report yet.

715
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: Right, so there's something to dislike for everyone.

716
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 5: Or maybe he's just not ideological, right.

717
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: So the Press secretary of Trump said he's an Obama judge.

718
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: Garrett Haig said, actually, he's a deba be a judge.

719
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: He is actually both, right.

720
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 5: It's both. But also, I mean, we're talking about someone

721
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 5: who was a federal prosecutor for a long time. You know,

722
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 5: a group of people who are notoriously softies on gang

723
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 5: members and territories something.

724
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

725
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 5: Right, But also, Mollie, we're talking about someone who was

726
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 5: hand picked by Chief Justice Roberts to sit on a

727
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 5: couple of very very sensitive courts. The Foreign Intelligent Surveillance

728
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 5: Court which does all of like the super classified national

729
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 5: security surveillance cases, and a court that's never met, but

730
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 5: that exists for cases where the government has to remove

731
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 5: a non citizen based on class of information, a court

732
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 5: called the Alien Terrorist Removal Court. I mean, John Roberts

733
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: picked him. So you know, here's a judge who has

734
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 5: just about as good a reputation and about as good

735
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 5: a pedigree as you could have for someone who's like

736
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 5: buy the book, you know, neutral, well respected, and they're

737
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 5: going after him too, and I think there's there's an

738
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 5: element of, you know, if they're going to go after him,

739
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 5: they'll go after anybody. And I think that's you know,

740
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 5: that gets us back to why I think it was

741
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 5: so important, not just what I mean, not even what

742
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 5: John Roberts said, but just when he said it.

743
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's true. So attacking the judges. We're seeing

744
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: Elon do this a lot. We're seeing jd. Vance had

745
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: floated this idea a couple of weeks ago, or maybe

746
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: it was a day ago, or maybe it was yesterday,

747
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: but about you know that we should just these judges.

748
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: If the president doesn't have unilateral power over everything, maybe

749
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: he doesn't have any power and we should just impeach him.

750
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: But there are some grown ups in the room still

751
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: despite where we are.

752
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 5: I think that's right. I mean, I'm not sure that

753
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 5: grown ups are in the room in the White House,

754
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 5: but you know, and I think that's the biggest difference

755
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 5: between this administration and the first Trump administration. But there

756
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 5: are certainly some outlier federal judges out there, Molly, but

757
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 5: there are also a whole bunch of grownups. You mentioned

758
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 5: my piece in the Times. You know, the original headline,

759
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 5: which was so much better, was the first time they

760
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 5: ever used my headline was the Tom and Daisy Presidency.

761
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: So it's about Yeah, I like Trump breaking everything. They

762
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 5: changed it to make it about the courts. So now

763
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 5: it's the courts alone won't save us, which I don't

764
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 5: disagree with the kind of changes the point of the piece.

765
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 5: But the broader point, though, is that it's not that

766
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 5: the courts won't save us, it's that they won't save

767
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 5: us alone. You know. I think it's remarkable as we

768
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 5: sit here just over two months into the presidency, and

769
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 5: you know, Trump has been subject to just an unprecedented

770
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 5: number of temporary restraining orders and preliminary injunctions, and his

771
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 5: supporters cry foul and say, well, you know, the courts

772
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 5: are out to get us. But my response is no,

773
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 5: the courts are responding to an unprecedented amount of lawlessness.

774
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 5: That's impressive, but it's also, I think, a temporary condition.

775
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 5: And the question is, you know, how can we get

776
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 5: the courts back? How can we help them? And you know,

777
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 5: the analogy I keep using is it's like the Trump adminstrations,

778
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 5: like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park. They're testing defenses went

779
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 5: with regard to how much they can get away with

780
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 5: and pushing on the courts around. Of course, the mistake

781
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 5: that they made in Jurassic Park because they didn't reinforce defences.

782
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 5: The question for us is how can we do that?

783
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: Right?

784
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: It feels like the real issue is how can we

785
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: protect the courts?

786
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I think part of how we protect the

787
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 5: courts is we have conversations like the one you and

788
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 5: I are. We talk about why it's important to have courts.

789
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 5: We talk about why do process really is about judicial process?

790
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 5: We talk about how and why. You know, just because

791
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 5: we might not like the judges doesn't mean that we

792
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 5: don't have appreciation for the role that the courts are

793
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 5: supposed to play in our system. You know, two things

794
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 5: can be true at once you can be very, very

795
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 5: very opposed to our current Supreme Court and believe at

796
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 5: the same time that the Supreme Court as an institution

797
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 5: plays a critical role in preserved on the rule of

798
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 5: law in this country. And I think, you know, making

799
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 5: sure everyone understands and leans into that nuance is part

800
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 5: of how we backstop them.

801
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

802
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: So one of the things that you talk about in

803
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: this piece is something that I'm a little bit obsessed with,

804
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: and by a little bit obsessed with, I mean a

805
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: hate that I'm obsessed with us is this Alien Enemies Act.

806
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: And the reason why it's one of the many, many,

807
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,479
Speaker 1: many zombie laws that Trump World when they were working

808
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: on Project twenty twenty five found and got excited about it.

809
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: Seems like very I see legal framework to everyone. But

810
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: they're still going to try so talk about it and

811
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: then also talk about the sort of other zombie laws

812
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: that this crew has teed up.

813
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 5: Sure, I mean, so the Alien Enemy Act, you know,

814
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 5: it's a statute, Molly that actually makes a fair amount

815
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 5: of sense in the abstract. The idea is that if

816
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 5: we're in a war with another country, you don't have

817
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 5: to find some special reason to pick up people who

818
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 5: are nationals of that country. So during World War Two,

819
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 5: we didn't need a special reason to arrest German nationals

820
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 5: living in the United States, because we just inherently suspected them.

821
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: Right. Unfortunately, Well, let's go.

822
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 5: On, no, I mean, so the problem is that, right,

823
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 5: The question is how can you be sure that these

824
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 5: folks are who you say they are? Right? And this

825
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 5: is where I think the Trump administration just either was

826
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 5: lazy or was totally malicious, because even a cursory perusal

827
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 5: of the history of the statute would show anybody that

828
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 5: there was a ton of judicial review that during the

829
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 5: war eighteen twelve, during World War One, during World War two,

830
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 5: literally molly hundreds of cases where people we were holding

831
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 5: under this statute walked in the court and said, hey,

832
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 5: I'm not a German, you know, I'm Swiss or I'm American,

833
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 5: and courts reviewed that. And I think someone in the

834
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 5: administration got the idea that this statute would allow for

835
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 5: mass summary removals without hearings, and that's just nonsense based

836
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 5: on the text and the history of the statute. So

837
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 5: there's like the meta question, which is are we even

838
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 5: at war with Trende.

839
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: Araba, which we are not, which what I.

840
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 5: Find sort of so remarkably self defeating about the administration's approaches.

841
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 5: Even if they somehow convince the courts that the government's

842
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 5: entitled to a little bit of difference on that hold

843
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 5: your nose squint a little bit, maybe this is enough

844
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 5: of an invasion to get us there. Even if they

845
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 5: went on that, you still are required to give judicial

846
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 5: review on an individualized basis to everyone who you're seeking

847
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 5: to remove, which means they got to go to a

848
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 5: judge and show that each of these people are in

849
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 5: fact members of Trendi iradwa.

850
00:42:59,400 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: Right.

851
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's been in bout three times, right, War

852
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: of eighteen twelve, World War one, World War two, So

853
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: you would have to have a war.

854
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, At the risk of just being slightly fair to

855
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 5: the Trump administration, you know, the statute does say declared

856
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 5: war or invasion or predatory incursion by a sovereign nation

857
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 5: or government. And so you know, obviously we're not at

858
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 5: war with Venezuela. Obviously we're not being invaded by Venezuela.

859
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 5: But if you accepted the premise, and I'm not saying

860
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 5: we should, that trend de ar Agua is like effectively

861
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 5: exercising governmental powers. You know, Mollie, it's there are crazier

862
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 5: arguments out there than that trenda a Agua is involved

863
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 5: in some kind of predatory incursion in the United States.

864
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: We're going to agree to disagree. But the one good

865
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 1: thing about this is and you are the legal scholar.

866
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: I am not, but you.

867
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: Do have if you do that they're working on a

868
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: deal to put non citizens or a handful of you know,

869
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: I don't think they really care who ends up in

870
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: there in these Venezuela in prison. And so if they

871
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: start going to war with Venezuela and they're Venezuela is

872
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: going to stop lending them put people in their prisons.

873
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 5: Right, And I mean, I don't buy this argument. I'm

874
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 5: just saying that it's it's slightly more plausible than some

875
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 5: of the other.

876
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 4: Nonsense out there, right, no question.

877
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 5: But the other problem though, is like, so, what made

878
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 5: all of those prior invocations different is that you had

879
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 5: some affirmative declaration by Congress, Right, so you know war

880
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 5: be eighteen twelve, Congress declared war on Great Britain, World

881
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 5: War one, Congress declared war on Germany World War two,

882
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 5: and so you know, part of the problem that Trump

883
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 5: administration has is like, it's one thing when Congress says,

884
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 5: yes we're at war or yes we're being invaded, is

885
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 5: something else entirely for the president to say we're being invaded?

886
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 5: Trust me. That's why I think this case is so

887
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 5: sort of important because to win, the Trump administration has

888
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 5: to win on that issue, and then it has to

889
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 5: persuade the federal courts that they have no role to

890
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 5: play in individualized determinations about whether individual folks are actually

891
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 5: members of turned the Aragua in a context in which

892
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 5: it is entire obvious what it would mean if that

893
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 5: weren't subject to judicial review. So I just, you know,

894
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 5: I think there's a reason why folks like me have

895
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,439
Speaker 5: sort of singled this case out from all of them

896
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 5: as perhaps as big a test of the rule of

897
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 5: law as any of the cases we've seen from the

898
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 5: Trump adminstration so far, even bigger, I would say, right

899
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 5: than Mahmud Khalil, the green card holder from Columbia who

900
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 5: was arrested, you know, a week and a half ago.

901
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: He's still in a detention facility. Is there any sort

902
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: of update on that?

903
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 5: Yes, So, Khalil's still in immigration detention in Louisiana. His

904
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 5: immigration proceeding is supposed to start this week. The lawsuit

905
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 5: that was filed on his behalf in New York was

906
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 5: transferred last week from New York to New Jersey because

907
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 5: by all accounts, Khalil was in New Jersey at the

908
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 5: time that his lawyers filed a habeas petition on his behalf,

909
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 5: and you know, law beying this macabre opera. That's the

910
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 5: court that has jurisdiction. So we have sort of two

911
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 5: tracks in his case. We have the litigation in New Jersey,

912
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 5: which is continuing to proceed on whether the federal courts

913
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 5: can sort of preempt the immigration proceedings, and then we

914
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 5: have the immigration proceedings, which are scheduled I think to continue,

915
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 5: you know, later this week.

916
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: Right, this is important case because well, I.

917
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 5: Mean, Khalil's an important case because the government's resting on

918
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 5: this crazy authority that it has used so far as

919
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 5: we can tell, maybe one or two times before, that

920
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 5: would basically allow the Secretary of State to point at

921
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 5: any non citizen, no matter their immigration status, and say,

922
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 5: I think you should be removed from the country because

923
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 5: I've determined that your continuing presence poses a risk to

924
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,439
Speaker 5: our foreign policy interests. You know, that would basically give

925
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 5: the Secretary of State the unilateral power to remove anybody

926
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 5: for any reason, at any time, and so that has

927
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 5: problems all its own. What is I think molly different

928
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 5: about the Khalil case is that even in that case,

929
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 5: the government is not contesting that he's entitled to some

930
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 5: process and a hearing before he's removed. That's why I

931
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 5: think the Venezuela cases are such a bigger deal, because,

932
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 5: you know, whatever the answers are to these substantive legal questions,

933
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 5: if we don't have due process, if we don't have

934
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 5: judicial process, then those answers are going to be provided

935
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 5: by the president and not by the courts. And that's

936
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 5: not how our system was designed, and especially today, I

937
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 5: think it's not something any of us should abide.

938
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

939
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: Really appreciate you, thank you.

940
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 5: That's molly always great to be with you, No.

941
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 2: Mo Jesse canon Smite.

942
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 3: There is this odd thing with RFK that everybody kind

943
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 3: of was like, what a freak of nature. You know,

944
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 3: this guy's off the deep edd And now there's a

945
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 3: lot of people who seem to be like well, what

946
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,959
Speaker 3: if seed oils are not the greatest thing, and maybe

947
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 3: we should just let them do some things. And then

948
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 3: there's some of us who studied him closely or are like,

949
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: this is not a guy you let play around in

950
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 3: the lab because the lab could blow up in your face.

951
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's pretty interesting. There's actually a big

952
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: fight going on right now with MAGA influencers about the

953
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: idea of banning soda from snap.

954
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 3: I seem to recall that a New York Mayer wanted

955
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 3: to just limit the sizes of sodas and these people

956
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 3: were pretty mad.

957
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: Here's the thing that's fascinating about Kennedy's MAHA stuff, right,

958
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: is that what he wants to do is I mean, yes,

959
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know.

960
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: A lot of this stuff is whoey.

961
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: You got measles in Texas, it's in New Mexico, it's

962
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 1: in like a bunch of different states. You know, we've

963
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: had some children die of it. We have Robert F.

964
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior musing about how cod liver oil might be

965
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: a good fixed for this this This guy is wrong

966
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: about most things, but and I would like to point

967
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: this out, I do think the one thing about him

968
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: is that he has eaten a lot of roadkill. So

969
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, maybe he's right about ceed oil, But honestly,

970
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: I think this guy is a pretty big grifter. What

971
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm struck by when we talk about all of this

972
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: kind of stuff is, in my mind, what is the

973
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: most interesting here is that we're seeing lobbyists. What happens

974
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: is like, for example, with the soda stuff, it turns

975
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: out that a lot of soda is bought on snap.

976
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: I know you'll be shocked to hear this, but food

977
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 1: stamspy a lot of soda. So if they ban food

978
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: samspying soda, it's going to be a real kick to

979
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: like the soda companies.

980
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: This is happening with a lot of.

981
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: Different stuff right, Like for example, they wanted to ban TikTok.

982
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: TikTok got a ton of lobbyists. Now they're not going

983
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: to ban TikTok. And that's happening with everything. For example, universities,

984
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: right a lot of these universities are worried that Trump

985
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: World is going to change the irs structure because right

986
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: now they don't have to pay taxes on their endowments,

987
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: or they don't have to pay a sort of market

988
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: level tax on their endowments. Here's the question, right, So

989
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: now you're seeing more and more university hiring lobbyists. It's

990
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: not that MAGA is getting money out of politics. It's

991
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: that MAGA is getting more money into politics. Look, just

992
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: the anti vax stuff is a real sign that Washington

993
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: will just do whatever they think is popular. What we're

994
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: going to see and what we're seeing and what you

995
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: know between the NIH cuts, I mean, look, these NIH

996
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: cuts are going to mean that we're missing years and

997
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: years of study for Alzheimer's and cancer and the cancer

998
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: you get now there could be a cure that is

999
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: not happening because fucking Elon Musk said that they should

1000
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: limit the grants, the indirect funding for these grants. I mean,

1001
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: that is what we're living with right now. So the

1002
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: anti vax stuff is bad. The NIH stuff is bad.

1003
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: You know, almost everything Kennedy is doing is bad. That's

1004
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

1005
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

1006
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

1007
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1008
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.