WEBVTT - ScienceStuff, with Jorge Cham 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.880 production of iHeart Radio. 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.120 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.560 my name is Noal. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.559 They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.800 super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.640 are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.080 they don't want you to know. And guys, you know 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:46.239 it's been a thesis of our show for quite some 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:52.040 time that history and the present and the future, these 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:57.800 are riddled with unexplained events, questions that are left unanswered. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:02.040 And we're in a very exciting time in civilization right 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:07.280 There are dangers that are unprecedented, there are questions that 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.600 have never been addressed, and at the same time, there 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:16.360 are astonishing breakthroughs in almost every field of science imaginable. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.280 And we got together off air, as we do, and 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.360 we said, we've got a lot of questions about the 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.360 world of science. Who's the guy who could answer these 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:33.120 for us, or who is the genius nice enough to 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:37.800 humor us with questions about simulation theory AI, regrowing limbs, 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.080 interstellar objects, everything from the past and the way we 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.399 reevaluate it to the questions and the big breakthroughs of 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.880 the modern day. So with that we do have good news. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:57.400 We found a guy to talk to us. We proudly 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.800 introduce you to the author, the engineer, the cartoonist, the roboticist, 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.880 the podcaster, Fello Georgia tech alum by the way, all 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.640 around science expert or Hey cham or Hey, thank you 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:10.079 so much for joining us today. 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.760 Man, Hello, Hello, so happy to be here. Thanks for 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.560 having me on your show and calling me a genius. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:17.760 That's probably overrated. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.080 No, that's something. 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.840 A genius is a self deprecating genius. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.760 Jorge is also an author you can check out Out 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.840 of your Mind right now and in book form. I'm 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.200 looking at a hardcover. It looks amazing, written with Dwayne Godwin. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:36.120 Is that correct? 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.840 Yeah, Duyne Godwin. He's a neuroscientist m M and dean 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.560 of a graduate studies at wake Forest University. So he's 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:44.720 a pretty knowledgeable guy. 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:50.880 And we're big fans of your comic series PhD as well. 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.160 We're going to get into some of that. You may 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.480 recognize Orgey as the co creator and host of Daniel 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.960 and Jorge Explained the Universe, as well as your newest 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.919 podcast project, Science Stuff. Could you tell us a little 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.239 bit about your background and your own words and what 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:10.920 led you to Science Stuff. 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:11.800 Yeah. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.919 So I have a PhD in engineering in robotics actually 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.760 from Stanford University. But then I decided to become a cartoonist, 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:24.720 which is still something of a concern to my parents. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.000 So my career took a little bit of a creative 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.959 turn there. I've done comics, I've done movies, I've done 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.840 TV show and my latest and books as well nonfiction books. 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.080 And my latest is this podcast with iHeart called Science 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:43.480 Stuff Amazing. Yeah, yeah, where we answer all kinds of 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.640 fascinating questions about science for anyone. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.839 And look, we're some of the original stuff guys over 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.960 here with one of these weird little stuff shows. We 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.640 are so excited that the format you've chosen for Science 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:02.680 Stuff includes interviews, includes all sorts of different explorations that 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.720 I don't want to downplay just conversational style shows, but 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.400 you are really putting in the work to bring in 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:13.120 other voices and explore things to their fullest. I really 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:13.440 love it. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.839 Yeah, thanks, you know, I basically have no rules on 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.960 the show. You know, whatever it takes to best explain 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.280 the whatever question we're trying to answer. You know, if 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.080 we find an expert and he's amazing and engaging or 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.719 she's amazing and engaging throughout, then that's what you'll hear. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.120 But if it's better for me to like go to 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.680 a quantum computer lab and have you hear what a 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.799 quantum computer sounds like, that's that's what we'll get amazing. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.400 And you also, I've got to say, you're also super 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:47.720 into self experimentation when appropriate. I'm thinking specifically about the 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.160 hypnosis episode. 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.600 Yeah, yeah, I try to make it as you know, experiential, 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:54.799 experiential as possible. 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.039 That's a word. Yeah, I should know that. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.080 And can I you know, take the listener long into 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:02.880 whatever topic we're doing. So I did one where I 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.640 got hypnotized. I went into the computer lab. They had 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:11.200 quantum computers. I'm doing one coming up where we're testing 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.880 whether frog meat really tastes like chicken. 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.320 WHOA, I'm sorry, I gotta quickly double back hypnotized. So 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.040 how did did it take? How did that go for you? 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.200 And what are your thoughts on that? From a scientific perspective. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.960 Yes, super fascinating. You know, I think what we all 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.720 think of hypnotism when we hear the word hypnotism is 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.239 this kind of like mystical or hoaxy, kind of hokey, 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.880 you know, entrancing people. But nowadays what people call hypnotism 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.320 is more like therapy, you know, like guided meditation, kind 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.600 of guided therapy really kind of getting you into your 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.000 thoughts and getting you to use your imagination to really 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.680 kind of basically simulate your life or simulate different situations 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:56.560 so you can get better perspective on. 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.440 It, to live in a simulation. Yeah. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:01.640 Yeah, that's that's how they describe it. 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.839 Yeah, that's how they describe ith. 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:07.400 Can we go that route? 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:07.640 Guys? 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.280 Can we go ahead and jump off that cliff. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:13.440 Or not? 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.080 It feels like we're tittering on the brink already. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.799 Okay, So, so for years, the better part of a decade, 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:25.080 we have been fascinated with the concept of simulation theory 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.960 or hey, could you explain just in the brief baseline 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.400 what people mean when they say simulation theory. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.960 Yeah, Basically, it's the idea that we're not really really real, 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.880 like you're not real biological animals with brains. We're actually 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.240 just characters in a video game. So that's the basic idea. 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:49.200 We're all just kind of like, uh, non player characters NPCs, 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.480 and in some sort of computer program, maybe run by 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.000 some alien or advanced human civilization in the future, where 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.679 they have a giant computer the size of the planet maybe, 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.919 and in this computer they're simulating artificial beings, and the 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.640 idea is that maybe we're some of those artificial beings. 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.240 We're not real we're not real people, we're actually just 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:10.160 computer programs. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:11.880 Well, and this sounds a little out there when you 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.680 put it that way, but there's some incredibly smart people 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.560 that go all in for this, right for sure? 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:18.120 For sure. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.280 Yeah, I think Elon Musk is pretty famous. Not our 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.320 favorite guy as for some people these days, but he's 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.760 pretty famous as being sort of all in on this theory. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.560 Anybody else really, Yeah, Like Neil de Grassy Tyson, he's 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.920 on records saying like, oh, this is pretty This is 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.840 a pretty compelling argument for the idea that we are 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.120 in a simulation, and I can't think of an argument 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:42.600 against it. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.200 So it's like, you know, it's a pretty it's. 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:49.440 Kind of a very intelligent, compelling argument that people who 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.400 are for the simulation theory put forth, and you know, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.800 smart people can't really argue against it. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.320 It's also fund this as a thought experiment. That's how 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.560 I found it to be the most engaging personally. 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.440 Well, you get into that in your episode Are we 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.920 living in a simulation featuring Nick Bostrom? With Nick Bostrom 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.400 because he's the guy who put forth the philosophical argument 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.120 essentially that this could be true? Right? And if it 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.480 were true, why? And I gotta tell you, going through 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.480 and listening to that, I wanted to ask you. I 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:22.960 want to ask you both, like I want to sit 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.760 down with you and Nick in that moment just say, well, guys, 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.920 what I feel like we're thinking in human terms for 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.199 a lot of these arguments, for like what we can 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:37.520 imagine as being possible scientifically technologically we're talking about computing 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.880 power and how you know, putting a bunch of computing 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.720 power towards one thing or another thing. I do wonder 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:49.800 if people like Nick Boscherman and you, like hyper intelligent 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:54.000 human beings, ever imagine that the universe entire that we 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.440 experience and believe to be the universe could be the 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.960 thing that's being simulated rather than just a planet size 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:01.880 simulation or something like that. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.520 Yeah, I mean, like the is the universe itself a simulation? 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:06.480 Yeah? 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.040 Yeah, because it's very suspicious, right, because there's laws that 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.080 basically help you predict what's going to happen in the universe, 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:14.680 Like if you throw a baseball up in the air, 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.120 you know exactly where to catch it. And so it's 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.640 kind of weird that it almost feels like a program, right, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.360 Like it almost feels like a video game. And so yeah, 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.640 there's some people think that maybe the universe itself, the 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.360 whole universe, is some sort of simulation. But then you 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.400 get to the question of what is it running on, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:36.880 like right on a computer, right, yeah, well yeah. 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.160 Or is is what we imagine to be reality just 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.679 based on the constraints of this simulation. So what we 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:49.320 think is possible or even could be is in a 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:54.520 box that is you know, this place. I don't know. 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:55.680 I'm sorry, maybe that's too weird. 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:01.200 Okay, yes, good question, because it's all so further to 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.840 add to that box analogy. Part of the box is 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.120 the limited the limited ways in which the human minds 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.880 can experience data. Right. We know that we were talking 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.080 earlier on ridiculous history about the concept of the observable 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.520 universe and or hey you were you took great care 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.360 to point out that the observable universe is not the 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:30.720 whole universe, not the universe entire, and therefore the things 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:35.360 that we can observe through a relatively limited set of 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.720 sensory inputs are not necessarily, you know, the whole pizza 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.079 pie is. I want to go back to something you 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.440 mentioned in your in your setup for this concept of 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:52.280 simulation theory, you noted, Yes, it's a coherent it's a 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:57.400 brilliant it's a well thought out argument. It's also sometimes 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:02.120 criticized as something that is impossible to disprove. Could you 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.920 tell us a little bit about what people mean when 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:05.480 they say that? 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.559 Yeah, yeah, so well, maybe we should talk about the 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.080 argument first, in case people don't know the argument. The 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.760 argument is that that and this was put by this 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.720 person called Nick Boston. He's a philosopher, Oxford professor at 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:24.199 the time, and he really took this idea that's been around, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:26.679 you know, basically since computers have been around. People thought, well, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.120 if we can program little agents or little programs, maybe 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.319 you can program people. And then those people think they're 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.200 in the real world, but they are actually programs. But 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.520 Nick Boston put out this sort of logical argument that 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:43.440 said that there's really three possibilities that could be true, 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.079 or one of them only one of them can be true. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.520 So one of them is that most civilizations really don't 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.760 make it very far, you know, they don't make it 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.560 to the stage in their technological development where they can 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.320 build the planet sized computer and build these massive simulations. 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.160 Possibility too, is that some civilizations can make it to 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.880 that stage, but they don't have any interest in creating 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.040 these simulations, like it's maybe they find it unethical, or 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.319 maybe they think it's just a waste of resources and 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.960 auction three is that, you know, there are some civilizations 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.640 that make it to this super advanced age, and some 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.640 of them love to make simulations, in which case there's 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.200 probably billions of simulations in the history of the universe. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:29.960 And so the number of simulated beings outnumbers would outnumber 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.040 the number of regular, real physical beings. And so if 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.880 you have to make a bet whether you're real or simulated, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.520 the rational bet, you know, if you're placing a bet 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.880 on this, it would be that you are a similant 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.719 being because you know, the odds are that you are 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:48.160 if you believe these arguments. 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.280 It's amazing, so good. Uh hoor hair. Are you a father? 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:55.400 I am? Yeah. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.400 Okay, So did you have a Minecraft phase or like 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:00.439 with your kids at all? 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:06.160 Yeah, it's it's still lingering. It's it's surprisingly a longing's got. 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:06.800 A staying power. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.000 Yeah, even like I mean kids you know, grow up 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.960 with it and continue to enjoy it until like adolescence. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.240 I mean, it's just such an incredible, uh and creative platform. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.760 So my kids are gone starts playing Minecraft right now 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.839 as we're recording this, and they are in a procedurally 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.840 generated world where if they go out far enough and 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.120 their character via you know, as a user, can see 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.200 the next stage, right, the next chunk of data that 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.400 needs to get loaded, it gets loaded up and they 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.640 can interact with it. But it's not real until they 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.560 get to it. Right that that concept of procedural generation 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:48.880 feels uncomfortably real to me. I uh, in this world 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.200 it's but again, it doesn't mean it is. It just 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.199 feels uncomfortably like that thing when we're looking deeper and 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.440 deeper into quantum mechanics and deeper and deeper into some 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.400 of the stuff that makes up this world. It does 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.720 feel as though when we're actually looking at things and 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.800 studying things, we're getting a ton of data. But then 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.640 you back up just a little bit and not so much. 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:13.360 What are your thoughts on that? 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.400 Yeah, No, it's an interesting thing because you know, in 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.320 this back and forth argument between people saying like, oh, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.120 we're in a simulation, most likely, we're not likely in 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.440 a simulation, that point gets really kind of thrown around 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.080 a lot back and forth, and so some people say like, oh, 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.120 it would be it would be impossible to simulate the 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.360 whole universe, every atom of every particle of everything object 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.520 around us. And then the people who are for the 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.480 simulation say, oh, well, then you can use procedural algorithms 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.040 where you only simulate the things you're looking at, and 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.320 like if a scientist goes into gets on a microscope 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.640 and looks really closely at something small, then then you 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:57.040 simulate that little bit of with more detail. Quantum scientists 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.840 are now saying, well, that's fine, but even and even 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:06.280 if you did that, simulating quantum physics is so outrageously 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.440 expensive for computers, then you would have to have quantum computers. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.560 But even if you had quint of computers, then you 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.080 have to simulate those, and then you even those are 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.040 super inefficient, and so it gets thrown back and forth, 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.040 even with this argument of like using procedural algorithms. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.560 It reminds me a little bit of your your recent 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.440 conversation on science stuff with the world experts on the 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.760 idea of terraforming Mars, and one of the one of 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.520 the big things that comes up for people who are 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.360 quite bullish on the concept as well as for people 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:46.120 who are very much against it, is the sheer amount 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:53.600 of energy, right, and the ambitious technological breakthroughs that would 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.480 have to occur. And I just want to say that 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.600 one of my favorite moments in that episode was when 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.400 you add these experts if they actually wanted to go 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:08.160 to Mars, and one of your experts straight up set no. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:13.080 Yeah, I know. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.160 It's fascinating because Mars right now is very inhospitable. You know, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.160 it's like a desert. You went there and your your 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.520 space suit had a leak in it, you would die. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.320 You know, there's no air, no oxygen. Your blood will 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.720 will boil, your saliva will boil. You want to survive there? 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:30.320 Uh? 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.800 And so I think one of the experts that they 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.320 wouldn't want to go there right now, first of all, 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.480 because it's uh, you know, she has a family and 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.240 it would be kind of tough call there to make. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.600 But the other side just said that, you know, marsh 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.640 is another planet and we kind of have no rights 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.320 to it, you know, we should leave it at pristine 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.040 and untouched, the like we have national parks here in 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:54.680 the on Earth. 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:56.560 Well, that's not going so well. 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:01.360 The I know, it might be in the minority. 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.760 The prevailing attitude, you know, it would seem in this 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.800 country is one of colonization, you know, one of like 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.119 everything belongs to us, everything is fair game. And that 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.280 certainly seems to be the perspective of someone like Elon Musk, 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.359 who seems really hot on colonizing Mars and keeps i 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.760 would say, over promising and under delivering in terms of 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.920 timeline around that. Any thoughts on that and like why 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.919 that's such a hot no pun intended kind of topic 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.760 for that kind of billionaire techie class. 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.920 Yeah, yeah, Well, I think the main problem is that 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.120 there hasn't been a lot of research onto this topic. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.240 You know, there were some papers back in the nineties, 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.200 maybe in the seventies and eighties, and some a few 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.199 people have wrint papers since then, but a lot of 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.760 it is kind of speculative, were kind of opinion based 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.920 or very like back of the envelope kind of calculations. 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.480 So it's kind of a field that right now is 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:01.040 very open to different opinions, you know, Like some people say, ah, yeah, 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.359 we can, well, there's not enough CO two in the 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.120 polar ice caps of Mars to really kind of fill 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.600 up the atmosphere there. And then some people say, well, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.920 that's all right, we can just round up some comets 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.480 and the meteor and the asteroid built and have them 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.359 crash on Mars. And some people say, what are you 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.400 talking about. That's insane, but it's possible. And so that 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:20.840 that's kind of how it goes back and forth. 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:22.960 Is that maybe also one of those kind of move 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.560 fast break things kind of approaches that a lot of 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:27.720 Silicon Valley type folks where it sort of like trot 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.600 this idea out there because it sounds on its surface 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.520 so futuristic, like the O week we should be on Mars, 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.879 like we deserve that as a human race, as a 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.560 human civilization, But then sort of sort out the details later. 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.440 Yeah, yeah, it definitely sounds like it. And it's also 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.080 sort of something that it seems also possible in this 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.880 problem to kind of trigger something. It could run away 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.399 from you in either a good direction or a bad direction. 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.720 So for example, if you melt, let's see a little 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.480 bit of the polar ice caps that bring some into 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.520 the atmosphere, and then that creates a greenhouse effect, which 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.920 heats up the atmosphere and the more which melts more 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.119 water or CO two, which blocks more sunlight. And so 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.240 you know, you could maybe do something small and it 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.000 will kind of cascade into this huge change in the 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.280 in the atmosphere, possibly possibly. 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:19.640 Right a wave we can't turn back. 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.480 Yeah, yeah, And so it's sort of at some point 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.520 it feels like, oh, we could, yeah, we could totally 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.320 trigger you know, global warming on Mars. What's the worst 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.840 that could happen? And then some people say, there's a 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:33.480 lot of that worst that can happen. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:33.800 There. 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.399 We'll pause for a word from our sponsors and return 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:45.439 with more from who Hate, And. 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.480 We've returned a while back. We I can't remember the 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.879 name of the episode, guys, or exactly what it was on, 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.160 but we talked about potential fixes or like, let's say, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.159 terraforming light here on Earth to address some of the 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.520 climate issues that we are now in the midst of you. 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.399 For a long time, it was this thing that was coming, 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.199 that might come, that could be out there, And it 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.639 does feel, at least in this moment that with things 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.359 like the flooding in Central Texas that just occurred as 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:20.520 we're recording this on July seventh, some of the warnings 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.320 about iceberg. There's a doomsday iceberg or ice shelf that 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:29.000 is essentially showing signs that we are very soon going 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.560 to have a lot more water flooding the oceans, and 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.959 it's making the oceans more salty, not less salty for 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.919 some reason, which is just it feels like we have 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.280 a lot of problems hanging out here on Earth that 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.800 deal specifically with climate and things that could be addressed 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:49.159 with some form of advanced terraforming or light terraforming, just 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.959 little things we could do. But when we looked at it, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.560 Ben Nol, do you remember the concept was to in 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.000 some way blot out part of the solar energy coming through. 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.400 Are you talking about the physicists that proposed setting off 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.760 a nuke that would potentially fill the atmosphere with soot, 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.600 and uh, you know, he claims would in some way 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:14.320 the climate change. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.760 That's what got what I wanted to bring that up. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:19.880 Maybe we'll get to that, but I just think it 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.720 it triggers me in that way. But Matt, maybe clarify 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:23.360 what you're talking about. 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.520 I'm sorry if you're talking about the the proposition of 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:29.800 blocking the sun. 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.600 Yes, right, but but again just as a way to 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.040 curb some of the heating, the overall you know, trend 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.919 that we're seeing in heating temperatures. It just seems like 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.760 they're maybe to somebody standing on the outside like I 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.360 am in this moment, how can we funnel more resources, 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.400 minds and just energy into that kind of thing? 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.600 Yeah, because it seems kind of almost silly to be 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.960 thinking about, you know, terraforming Mars when we can't even 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.760 like terror anything here right. 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.000 But here, you know, I mean, I don't know, it 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.720 makes me think about Mar the thoughts that potentially there 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.719 was life on Mars at some point in it's in 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:14.960 its past, you know, or at least there were there 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.199 was at least waters there and put the potential for 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:19.320 life maybe. 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:22.760 Yeah, I don't know, yeah, I know, it's it's wild, 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.240 it's and it's interesting because here in the Solar System, 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:29.320 we basically have like three data points, right, we have Venus, Earth, 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.879