1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK. Early 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: in the process of making the show, executive producer Payne 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Lindsay got a call from Carrie Rawson, daughter of Dennis Raider, 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: the BTK Killer. They sat down together for an interview. 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: What came out of that was a five hour conversation 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: in Atlanta where they covered everything from her early childhood 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: to learning about her dad's true identity when she was 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: an adult. You've heard some of it throughout the podcasts, 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: but we left a ton on the cutting room floor. 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: So now I'm pleased to share with you an abbreviated 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: version of Payne's conversation with Carrie Rawson. I hope you 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:48,959 Speaker 1: enjoy it. 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: Keeping as simple, introduce yourself. 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 3: I'm Carrie Rawson. I'm the daughter of dentist Raider, who's 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: better known as the BTK Killer, from which talk Kansas. 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: Yes, how does it feel saying that? 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: Uh, it's been a long process. It's been sixteen years 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 3: since his arrest in two thousand and five. It's been 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 3: a very long process to be able to even say 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 3: BTK out loud, and then to acknowledge like that he 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: is my dad and I'm his daughter. Most headlines that 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 3: involved me are still btk's daughter. But like I'm a 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 3: best selling author now I'm a member about my life, 24 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 3: you know, growing up with my father and his arrest 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: and everything. But I'm still not known as Carrie Rossen. 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 3: I'm known probably for eternity as btk's daughter. 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: But you're not. You're also your Carrie. 28 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 3: That was a lot of like my process of healing. 29 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: I mean, I was Carrie and he was Dad, and 30 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: then he was arrested, and all of a sudden he 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: was BTK and I lost Carrie. You know, a lot 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 3: of my book is about that, losing me and finding 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: myself again. My husband Darien said in twenty twelve, once 34 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: I forgave my dad, I came back to carry. I 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 3: was gone for seven years. You know, a lot of 36 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: who I am and what makes me me, like the 37 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 3: person sitting across from you, was gone. So when I 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: let go of some of that stuff, that's when I 39 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 3: started coming back to me. But I really didn't really 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 3: start healing, I don't think until I started speaking up 41 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: in the media in twenty fourteen. A lot of my 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 3: later journey was about coming to terms not only with 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: who my dad was, how I knew him who he 44 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 3: actually was. This other side I had to learn and 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 3: then coming back to terms with who I am in 46 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 3: context of my dad, and then what was I going 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: to do with it? So, I mean, it's just been 48 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: a massive process for me many years. 49 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: Where'd you grow up? 50 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: So I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. I was born 51 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 3: in June of nineteen seventy eight. We lived in Park City. 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 3: It's a small northern suburb of Wichita, so about five 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 3: thousand people. I was like a big spread out metro area, 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: probably about five hundred thousand now. So I lived nine 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 3: houses down from my mom's parents, II Leen and Palmer Deets. 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 3: So my mom literally moved nine houses down when she 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: married my dad in May of seventy one, and they 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 3: bought this three bedroom ranch that has the zact layout 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: as my grandparents' house, but it has a much bigger 60 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 3: yard because like my dad loved the garden, so he 61 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: planted trees and he built this massive garden in the back. 62 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: And then he said, when I was about two, he 63 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: had to install a metal fence because before then he 64 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: didn't have a fence. But he said, I was like 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: wandering over to like the neighbors to pether huge dog, 66 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 3: like this wolf like dog, and he was like freaked out, 67 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: so he had to start like fencing me in. 68 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: By the time I was like two, were you just 69 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: curious or what? 70 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: Oh? 71 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've always just been a go get her, like 72 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: total tomboy adventure to go do anything and everything was 73 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: my dad. He would like take me out gardening, you know, 74 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: I was three or four. He was teaching me about 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 3: all the plants, the vegetables, growing seasons, soil. Anything Dad 76 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: was doing I wanted to do. Like he loved the outdoors, 77 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: so he was cool and let me get muddy. And 78 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: my mom hates the outdoors like literally, my mom is 79 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: like outside to go like home to car, like church. 80 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 3: Literally she hates the outdoors. 81 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: What kind of garden was this? 82 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 3: Just a you know of like a family garden that 83 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 3: he had plotted out. He even turned my bedroom into 84 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: a greenhouse, like I was three or four, and he 85 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 3: set up solder lights, I mean like the big fourlescent 86 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: lights and had trays of seed lingks and literally I 87 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: couldn't sleep in my room, so I was sleeping like 88 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: in the bottom buck of my brother's bunk. Bad my 89 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 3: brother Bride's three years older than me. And like in 90 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: my book, I talk about remembering, like my dad taking 91 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: these trays of seeds and then putting them under this 92 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 3: light in this attached shed that was right connected to 93 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: our house. So I literally remember watching my dad take 94 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: care of these seeds and water them. Like he was 95 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 3: obsessed with gardening when I was little, Like he would 96 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: throw himself into these things, which you know, later on 97 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 3: we learned he was literally throwing himself into stuff to 98 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: distract him from murder. Literally, but he was gardening. And 99 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: then later on it was the dog track that was 100 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: north of Park City, like late eighties or early nineties, 101 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 3: he literally was laid off from work from ADT was 102 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: doing work with the census off and on, we didn't 103 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 3: have much money. Then he was gambling at the dog 104 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: track and he was getting he was obsessed about it, 105 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 3: like he was like pulling it out of the Wichita Eagle, 106 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: like all the stats and like trying to like figure 107 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: out the system. And then later it was stamps, So 108 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 3: like nineties up into when he was arrested, he was 109 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: collecting stamps. He was doing first day covers, like you 110 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: sign an envelope with your name so he's basically autographing 111 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,559 Speaker 3: this envelope and then paying exter to have it stamp 112 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: with this first day cover and then sent back to 113 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 3: him and like steal plastic. Now did he think that 114 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: those were going to have values someday? Like that's like 115 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 3: those unknown questions like the ego and the narcissistem getting 116 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: in there, having all of like his autograph on all 117 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 3: these envelopes, It sounds. 118 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: Like there was always some sort of obsession. Let's go 119 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: back to just Wichita, like put yourself back there as 120 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: a kid. What did it look like? 121 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 3: I mean, which is like your classic Midwestern town unless 122 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 3: you count Kansas City. It's the biggest city in Wichita. 123 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: So it's like known for like aviotics. So my grandma 124 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: Eileen out out of high school. She worked at Boeing 125 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: driving a Cushman cart for the World War two effort. 126 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 3: She literally was a Rosie the riveter. Both my grandpas 127 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 3: served in World War Two. Father was born in Pittsburgh, Kansas, 128 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 3: but then lived his first years in Columbus, Kansas with 129 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 3: my grandma's family. They moved to wich Tom when he 130 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: was like around five, so they were living on Seneca 131 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 3: like north central Wichita, about three miles from where I 132 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: grew up. 133 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: So your parents met at the church. 134 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 3: My dad, he was in the Air Force from I 135 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: think around sixty six to seventy one, so this is 136 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: during Vietnam. He graduated from high school Wichita Heights in 137 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 3: sixty three and then he tried community college for a while. 138 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: He's not a very good student. And my grandpa, who 139 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: had been a marine in World War Two, told him, 140 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: you're going to get drafted. So he's like, I don't 141 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: want you to get drafted. I want you to enlist 142 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: because if you get drafted, you're going to be stuck 143 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: in the army and you're going to be stuck in 144 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: the bush. So my dad enlisted in the Air Force 145 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: and he ended up he never stepped foot in Vietnam. 146 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: Like he traveled to Greece, Turkey, Japan, South Korea. He 147 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: brought home all these trinkets in like this Kimano robe 148 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 3: from Japan and like influenced by these cultures. And he 149 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: had these photos of like the places he had traveled 150 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 3: in Greece and Turkey. When I was a kid, he 151 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: had this big box of mementos and like literally this 152 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 3: like that's how disconnected. He is like, this is Vietnam, right, 153 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: So like his two younger brothers, Paul and Bill, both 154 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: served in Vietnam. Paul was when the Navy on a 155 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: swift boat and Bill was a marine stuck walking the bush. 156 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 3: So like my uncles came home with PTSD now talked 157 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: about the war, and my dad is like talking like 158 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: about that he was vacationing. So when my dad was 159 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 3: in the Air Force, he did like telephone pole work 160 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 3: and wir ring, so that's kind of stuff he would 161 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 3: incorporate later into his crimes. But he he did a 162 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: lot of stuff with wires and climbing telephone poles and 163 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 3: communications and things like that, so he was super handy. 164 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 3: So he comes back in the summer seventh. And my 165 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 3: mom grew up at Christ Lutheran. That's our church, so 166 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: she's grown up at Christ Lutheran. It was across from 167 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: my parents high school, which Isa Heights. So like my 168 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: mom and her two sisters and my dad and his brothers, 169 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 3: they all went to the same high school. My mom 170 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 3: was a freshman there when my dad was a senior. 171 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: So she said she never met em. 172 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 2: Your dad went to church every Sunday, so my. 173 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 3: Dad grew up Lutheran, and then when my dad was 174 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: overseeing so the Air Force is when his parents switched 175 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: to the Lutheran church. My mom had been in since 176 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 3: she was little. It was something they both had been 177 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: brought up and it was not something you ever questioned. 178 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: Like they both always served. He always was either doing 179 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: communion later on assistant minister. It was something you did out. 180 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: Of your mom, dad, and brother. Who are you closest to? 181 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 3: Out of my family? Growing up? I was definitely probably 182 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: closest to my dad. I was close to my brother. 183 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 3: We did a lot of stuff. But I think looking back, 184 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 3: you know, I probably was closest to my dad. 185 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: Why is that? 186 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 3: Just because Like Dad had fun and wanted to do 187 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 3: things and be outside and like things that I ended 188 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: up enjoying. Like I said, like I could get dirty 189 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: and be a tomboy and we would walk the dog 190 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: and we would talk. You know, I could be free 191 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: and comfortable with him. You know, he took me fishing 192 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 3: and camping. That was huge for us. 193 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: Did he enjoy sharing these things with you? 194 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: It's hard when you're over on this side of only 195 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 3: knowing my dad as who he is in the context 196 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: of btk you know or what you know about serial killers. 197 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: To think of this guy being a father and normal 198 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 3: and enjoying things, but he needed to be outside. He 199 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: could get like uptied and angry and difficult and controlling inside. 200 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: I mean you would see it in any sort of 201 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 3: building like church, family homes, anywhere, like he just so Okay. 202 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 3: For an example, it's July of two thousand and three, 203 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: two weeks before I'm getting married. He was doing something 204 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: in the house like he you know, he did a 205 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: lot of home repairs. He was always fixing something or 206 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: doing something. He left this open toolbox around the corner 207 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 3: next to our stove in the kitchen. I'm just rounding 208 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 3: the corner. I'm probably walking too fast, like I don't 209 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 3: know for like two decades. He's barking at me to 210 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: slow down and not walk so fast. And I literally 211 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 3: step with my right foot into this open toolbox. Now, 212 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: he left the toolbox there. He shouldn't have left it there. 213 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: It's right in a small, narrow walking place. I step 214 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: into it. I tear a ligment in my foot and 215 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 3: it's somehow my fault. He like flips and he's yelling 216 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: at you in that moment because you're hurt because of 217 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: something he did. 218 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: Thinking back on it now, is it because things are 219 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: out of order? 220 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: I mean some of it is that control, like obscene 221 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: amount of need to control things and to have order 222 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: and be like nothing disrupting his day, like a Yellowstone. 223 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: My mom trips, Like we're walking on this path, we're 224 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 3: visiting the teetons, We're just because my mom's with us. 225 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: Were just literally just walking. We're not hiking or anything. 226 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: My mom didn't do any of that, Like we're literally 227 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 3: just walking on like a normal path. She accidentally trips, 228 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 3: falls down a little bit of like a culvert or something, 229 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 3: and she's bleeding from her knee and she's like spraying 230 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: her ankle. He just erupts, like verbally abusive, almost physically abusive, 231 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 3: mad at her because she's messed up his day. Honestly, 232 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 3: she spent so much of that vacation in a hotel, 233 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 3: and I thought it was because of her ankle. I 234 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 3: thought it's because she was ninsure. And then it wasn't 235 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 3: till twenty fifteen that I asked her on the phone. 236 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: I said, do you remember Jackson Hole? So we talked 237 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: about it about how she felt, and she says, your dad. 238 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: Run my vacation, and what she mean by that just. 239 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 3: Being an asshole, like being a jerk. 240 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: Do you think he really feel bad? 241 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 3: I mean I totally think he did, because, like I 242 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: don't buy the whole like this guy's doesn't have feelings 243 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 3: and doesn't shut down, Like if you talk to people 244 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: that have grown up in like verbal and emotional abuse situations. Now, 245 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 3: I wasn't physically or sexually abused, but if you talk 246 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 3: to abuse survivors, we all have that ability when we 247 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 3: were little to start managing things. You know, manage our parents. 248 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 3: You know, you'll talk to kids of like alcoholics. You're 249 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 3: managing things the best that you can. So why I 250 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: was aware that, like MoMA was hurt, Dad felt bad. 251 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 3: I also just went along with Dad to go have fun. 252 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: So I never really thought anything more other than mom 253 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 3: doesn't really like this stuff and she's hurt. So here 254 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: it is twenty years later. You know, Dad's been arrested 255 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,239 Speaker 3: for ten years, and there's just that hurt and tightness 256 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 3: and tenseness in my mom's voicing your dad run my vacation. 257 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 3: Now it's really hard with my mom to process everything 258 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 3: that's happened in ass, so I have to be really careful. 259 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 3: So when I was researching, you know, my dad and 260 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 3: my life and trying to figure out what to write 261 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 3: and deal with all of this, I actually literally was 262 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: in trauma therapy back in twenty fifteen, again trying to 263 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 3: process all this. So I think my mom probably does 264 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 3: hold some answers, but we don't really go there. 265 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: What do you mean hold some answers like. 266 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 3: Somebody liked my father is rare, But there's other guys 267 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: out there, and we need to catch them, and we 268 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: need to catch them quicker. One of the reasons I've 269 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: been so invested in learning about my dad and his 270 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: crime is to get more knowledge on these guys, to 271 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: actually show what they really are like, to extend the profiles, 272 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: and so we can catch them quicker. 273 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: Let's go back a little bit, and do you have 274 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: any memories of the BTK killings happening in Wichita before 275 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: anyone knew that it was your dad, or anyone really 276 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: knew what was going on. You remember there being a 277 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: killer somewhere. 278 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: As far as I know, I do not remember ever 279 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 3: hearing the acronym BTK involved in any murders before two 280 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: thousand and four. It was the summer of four when 281 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: I found out he had come back and communicated it. Now, 282 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 3: you have to remember there were seven murders in the 283 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: seventy the Otero family in January seventy four, Then two 284 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 3: months later was Catherine Bright and he attempted to murder 285 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 3: her brother, Kevin Bright, and then he shut down for 286 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 3: a few years. And then seventy seven was Shirley Vyanne, 287 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 3: and then in December of seventy seven with Nancy Fox, 288 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 3: when my mom was pregnant with me for three years. 289 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: I never knew any of this going on in the seventies. 290 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: So when I'm six then, like I find out the 291 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: neighbor lady had gone missing and they thought something bad 292 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 3: had happened to her. 293 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: How'd you find that out? 294 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: I know my parents were talking about it. I'm sure 295 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: it was probably on the news, because in the eighties, 296 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: like the news was just on It's not like it 297 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: is now with kids where you can just get it 298 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: on your phone. I know I would have heard it 299 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 3: my parents talking about Missus Hedge missing and they had 300 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: a conversation saying that thought it was the boyfriend. 301 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: Was that scary as a kid having a neighbor go missing. 302 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it altered me pretty bad. Missus Hudge was like 303 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 3: an acquaintance to us, Marine Hedge, Like we would walk 304 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 3: by and say hi to her when we were walking 305 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: down to my grandparents, like with my mom, or we 306 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: would stop and chat. Don't have a clear memory exactly 307 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 3: if my father talking to her, I but I do 308 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: remember stopping talking to her with my mom, but more 309 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: of it just an acquaintance. Tello. How are you? How 310 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: are you doing? You know, talk, you know, maybe about 311 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 3: gardening or something. That she was out in her yard 312 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: just like quick you know, I had never been in 313 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: her house or anything. 314 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: How did it make you feel processing that somebody that 315 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: you knew of in the neighborhood was brutally murdered? 316 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 3: See, I mean that's the thing. Like when I was six, 317 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: and not only did I know she was missing, Like 318 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: a police officer came by canvassing the neighborhood and I 319 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: was out playing. I was jumping on my red pogo stick. 320 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 3: My mom was there in our driveway, and he interviewed 321 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 3: My mom quickly came assing, you know, have you you've 322 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 3: seen anything? Do you know anything? You know? I remember 323 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 3: vaguely remember this officer talking to my mom, and then 324 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 3: they found her body, and somehow I knew that her 325 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: body had been found out in the country, and I 326 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: knew she had been strangled. Why does a six year 327 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: old know that her neighbor lady's been strangled? 328 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: Where do you think the urge to murder an innocent 329 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: person comes from. 330 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: It's just it's They're just a means to an end, unfortunately. 331 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: I mean that's what he would say. What do you 332 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: mean by that, Like I'm saying, when he's calling him 333 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 3: a project, he's dehumanizing him. 334 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 2: Sure, so he doesn't even look at them as people. 335 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 3: He doesn't. He sees them as tools. It's something to 336 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 3: help him express himself and feel better. 337 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 2: What do you think that it is that he's feeling 338 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 2: that needs to be fixed so badly? 339 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 3: I think it's it's brokenness. I mean, really, he's taking 340 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 3: out something with his murders. He's he's taking something out 341 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 3: like replace seeing something inadequate in him to feel better 342 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 3: about himself. I don't even know if he knows he's 343 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 3: doing it, like to make himself feel better. There's a 344 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: quote like hurt people hurt right, Like pain is like 345 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: grief passed on like trauma passed on like generational by generational. 346 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 4: Like. 347 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 3: Something was wrong with my dad for whatever reasons, and 348 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 3: now he's passing it on to these families. You know, 349 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 3: here's this family in Wichita living their life, trying to 350 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 3: make ends meet, trying, you know, and four of them 351 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 3: are gone like that because something's wrong with my dad. 352 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: What is that that's wrong? And then what do we 353 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 3: do about it? And how do we stop it? 354 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: Does that add up? 355 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 4: Though? 356 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: Is that who your dad was? 357 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: I would say internally, that's probably who he is at 358 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: the core. 359 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: For those who don't know, and only I know so 360 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 2: much about this, what exactly is a night tear for you? 361 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 3: So they're pretty common with shell It's worse than a nightmare. 362 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: It's like there's a physical reaction, you know, like a 363 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 3: nightmare you're just kind of having in your head and 364 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 3: you might remember in the morning, But like a night terror, 365 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 3: I can scream bloody murder. I'm sitting up terrified. I 366 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: see things I fight. 367 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: So back when you're six years old, described to me 368 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: what those night terrors were when they first started. 369 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: It's always like there's somebody bad in my room there 370 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 3: to kill me. It's not necessarily a face or a person. 371 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: It's more of that feeling that somebody's going to. 372 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 2: Murder you, that something is in the room, though it's. 373 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: Something very bad is in the room to kill you. 374 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 3: Always And so as a little girl, I didn't I 375 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 3: wasn't able to describe it to that level that I 376 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 3: am now. But I was like sitting up in bed screaming, 377 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 3: and it was always my mom, always my mom that 378 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 3: would come sit by my bed. And so she's trying 379 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: to rationalize with somebody that's like freaked out and you're shaking, 380 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 3: Like sometimes I'll be shaking, my heart'll be beating really fast. 381 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 3: I mean, like I even used to wet the best 382 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: when I was little. Sometimes, you know, she would say, 383 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 3: it's okay, Carrie, you're safe. No one's here, there's no 384 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 3: one bad in the house. You're safe. Like safe is 385 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 3: sort of like that keyword to anchor me, Like you're safe, 386 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: You're okay. 387 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: Like even if you weren't, your dad was aware that 388 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: you were being affected by hedges. 389 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 3: Death, like he's quoted in twenty sixteen as saying he 390 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 3: was sure it was from there. And I don't think 391 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: I even really like connected my night terre starting like 392 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: to that. Now, is it more complicated than that? Maybe, 393 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: but he was aware and he found it empowering. But 394 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: he didn't get me any help. 395 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: Taking back to your six year old self, having suppressed 396 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: certain details before, your six year old self laying in 397 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: your bed at night, fearful of something being in your room, 398 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: do you ever think that that could have actually been 399 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: your dad in there? 400 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 3: I mean, our best guess from experts I've talked to 401 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: is that very well could have been my dad practicing something, 402 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: coming back from something and invernally scaring me, or I mean, 403 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 3: he could even have been in there getting off. We 404 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 3: don't know. I mean, we know I was not sexually abused, 405 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: but my dad like masturbated again, like next to Josie 406 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: Otero after he strangled her, right, so, and he did 407 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 3: that at least with Nancy Fox. So who is to 408 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 3: say my dad wasn't in my room getting off? We 409 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 3: don't know. I mean literally, when I talk to detectives, 410 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 3: they're like, very possible. 411 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: Do you think that you were ever really in danger? 412 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 3: My dad is quoted in Ramsland's book saying I loved 413 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 3: my family. I loved Paula. He was very very protective 414 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: and like if anybody had messed with us, he would 415 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 3: God in their way. I mean, he's quoted as saying 416 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 3: he loved us very much. You know, he was worried 417 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: about us. In the seventies, this whole community is erupting 418 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 3: in the sphere after the Otaros, and then in October 419 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 3: of seventy four, he's in his first communication. There's this 420 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: fear in this community of the serial killer. As he's 421 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: communicating with the police. In the seven he's murdering more people. 422 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 3: My mother even is quoted as saying like she was scared, 423 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 3: and she talked to my dad about it, and he said, 424 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 3: you're fine, don't worry, You're safe, because he knew she 425 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: was safe because he's not going to murder her. You know, 426 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: she worked at the VA and she would be out 427 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: late sometimes with dinner with girlfriends, you know, And he 428 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 3: was working at ADT during the day and then he 429 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: was going to WSU for criminal Justice at night. He 430 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 3: was gone a lot, plus doing all his BTK stocking 431 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 3: and whatever. So she was home alone, you know, trying 432 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: to raise my brother and me. She was scared, but 433 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 3: he reassured her and told her she was fine. But 434 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 3: even he said that he. 435 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: Was worried, almost just subconsciously from himself, but he also 436 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: is fully aware that if he's capable of doing this, 437 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: then somewhere else out in the world, maybe someone else 438 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: is too. 439 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 3: Exactly, and I think he had that keen ability to 440 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: read bad people. 441 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: And know like to stake c Do you feel like 442 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: he tricked you your whole life? 443 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: No? 444 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 3: I don't think he was like, oh, I'm gonna trick everybody. 445 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, do you feel like he in any 446 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: way conned you? 447 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 3: You know, it's deeper than lying. I mean, of course 448 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 3: he's lying to my mom when he's saying he's on 449 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 3: a camp out. Sure, but it's betrayal. It's deeper than that. 450 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's like somebody going in having an affair 451 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: or something. But it's deeper than that. It's like every 452 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: day betrayal. Like I'm saying, he is so disconnected in 453 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 3: his brain. He accepts himself and he's like, well, you 454 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 3: all were fine with me. Well we didn't know, like, hello, 455 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: how do you think someone's going to react. We're all 456 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: reacting like normal, same people. We're not going to be 457 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: the same with you ever. 458 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 2: Do you ever think that to get to that point 459 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: to where he's actually going to commit these crimes, that 460 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: he's willing to risk everything, even you guys the family. 461 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 3: I don't think he has that connect all the way there. 462 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 3: He's not thinking about the consequences to our family. It's 463 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: also about the fear. 464 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 2: What do you mean? 465 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 3: Like he said he felt empowered by my fear, so 466 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 3: like I shared. I shared monster movies with my dad, 467 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: like Frgstein, Dracula, Jucklin Hyde. He's really big on Jucklin Hyde, 468 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: like he literally is Jacqueline Hyde, you know, Jack the Ripper, 469 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 3: all that stuff. I grew up with that with my dad. 470 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 3: So like in the nineties, like we went and we 471 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 3: saw Seven together. When we were walking out to the car, 472 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: my dad wanted to know how did it make me feel? 473 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 3: It wasn't so much what do you think in the 474 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 3: movie or some movie good or bad. It was how 475 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 3: does it make you feel? Because he wanted to know, 476 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 3: like experience what I was feeling scared in there watching 477 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 3: that movie. 478 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: Having seen seven, it is a pretty morbid movie. Did 479 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: you feel scared watching that? 480 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? 481 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 3: I mean, just like like a scary movie will scare me? 482 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 3: Seen at once? It bothered me enough. I never wanted 483 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: to see it again. And then after I found out 484 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 3: with my dad that I'd seen it with him. But 485 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I literally watched eight millimeter with my dad 486 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: at home, or I'm like watching paulp Fiction with the 487 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 3: scenes in the basement, like that seared in my mind 488 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: watching that with my dad. 489 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: You had a reaction that I won't see it again 490 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: unless I have to. But you know, I get it. 491 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: How do you think your dad felt? 492 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: When we're talking about somebody you like my dad, they 493 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 3: have to really push that envelope to feel. It's not 494 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: that they can't feel, they just got to push it 495 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: in a way that's like gonna cause mayhem and death 496 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 3: to feel. Like he said, it was hard for him 497 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 3: to have a normal sexual relationship because he has to 498 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 3: push that so far to get that release. So my 499 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: guess is, when he's asking me, how does it feel 500 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: one he wants to know, how does regular fear feil? 501 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: How does it feel to be a regular person, be 502 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 3: a woman, and be vulnerable? 503 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: Do you feel like a part of why he would 504 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: ask you how you felt about that movie is to 505 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: see if any of his tendencies were in you. 506 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 3: I don't think he was ever scared. We would grow 507 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 3: up to be. He made sure we towed the line 508 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 3: and didn't even have a speeding ticket, like we had 509 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 3: a cuffs and jar in the kitchen. His three brothers 510 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: turned out fine. So if you're gonna do nurturing nature debate, 511 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 3: I mean, they all have the same genetics in the 512 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: same home life and they're fine. So what makes one 513 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 3: person turn into this and a monster and other people 514 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: not be? He always tried to tow the line, even 515 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: though he wasn't for his parents. He didn't want to 516 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 3: be in trouble. He wanted to be a good kid, 517 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 3: like I think he wanted to be a white hat 518 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: and he won. He wanted us to turn out better. 519 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 3: He gifted me strength. I mean some of it was 520 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: just innately born and some of its mom But I'm 521 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 3: independent and I'm strong and I'm fearless because my dad 522 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 3: raised me like that. I was like the little girl 523 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 3: going after the woof dog when I was two, right, 524 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: Like I was fearless. Built that up in me, and 525 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 3: I think he did it because he knew I needed 526 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: to be strong and independent because of something like this happened. 527 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 3: I mean, part of it is just his nature to 528 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 3: be that way. And then He just took me along, 529 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 3: and he never questioned weakness, and he never, for as 530 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 3: much as he seems to hate women and take out 531 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 3: this anger on them, he was so protective of me 532 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: and built me up to be strong. Now he could 533 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 3: cut into me verbally it hurt me, But most of 534 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: the time he was just about, you're gonna carry your weight, 535 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 3: and you're gonna I'm gonna do this, and your brother's 536 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 3: gonna do it, and you're gonna do it. Like I 537 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 3: was jealous. I couldn't go to the boy Scouts with him. 538 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 3: So that's who I was, even though I was struggling 539 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 3: with some mental illness, That's who I was. 540 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 4: Like. 541 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 3: There was only a few times I saw my dad cry. 542 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 3: I saw him cry when my cousin Shelley died, when 543 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: he came home after my grandpa died. Like the most 544 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 3: almost most despair I saw. We were in the Grand Canyon. 545 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 3: We were on the Tonto Trell. It was day five, 546 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 3: it was very hot. He was miserable because he couldn't 547 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: literally go to the bathroom. He's off forever. I'm dying 548 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: in the heat. And he comes back and he says, this, 549 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 3: just leave me here to die and he's just so 550 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 3: shut down and so dysfunctional. At that moment, was miserable. 551 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 3: I had been that way on day one. It was 552 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 3: like we had flipped in those five days and had 553 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: I was the one that became strong at that point. 554 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: It's so hard as a girl or as a kid 555 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 3: to see, even though I was an adult, to see 556 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 3: your dad broke down in that way, to not be 557 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 3: physically strong and to be weak. I never knew my 558 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 3: dad week ever, ever, ever, ever, and so to see 559 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 3: him like broke down and almost crying, like just leave 560 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 3: me here to die, and I'm like, I'm not leaving 561 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 3: you here to die. I'm hot. Let's go find some shade. 562 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: You know. 563 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: That's when like that power changed, Like that's where I 564 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 3: became strong. 565 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: What he was showing you was sincere though, or did 566 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: it just feel that sincere? 567 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 3: I mean the hard asked tactics will tell you he 568 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 3: was BTK. He didn't give a crap. Well, of course, yeah, 569 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: and you got to get over that. 570 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: But they didn't experience what you experienced. 571 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 3: No, they did not, and they never experienced him like Dennis. 572 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 3: I think he has the full capacity to love, care 573 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 3: pro text, take care of his own and the full 574 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: capacity to murder people. And that's what's really terrifying. I 575 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 3: think that's where people do not want to go and 576 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: explore because they want to isolate and they want to 577 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 3: put these guys in a box and call them a 578 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 3: monster and say you're just this and all of this 579 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 3: was pretend and a cover and a roost that's a 580 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 3: dad word like, and that they're just this thing. Really, 581 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 3: and now that we've identified you, we've labeled you, we've 582 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 3: filed you, why we're onto the next. 583 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: But honestly, it's because he was all these other things 584 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: that he was able to get away with us for 585 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 2: so long. 586 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 3: Exactly, he never had a police record. At the most 587 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: he had a ticket. I was with him when he 588 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: got a speeding ticket, very much like yes, sir, no, sir, sorry, sir, 589 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 3: won't happen again, sir. 590 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: Almost like there was just something like evil inside him 591 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: that was more powerful than everything else because he wasn't 592 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: able to suppress it enough to not do it at 593 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: least not all the time. 594 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 3: No, oh, not all the time. But like that's one 595 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 3: of the things about him is that he did have 596 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 3: that control, that he could control it most of the time. 597 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 3: Like he wasn't a spree killer, he wasn't out of control. 598 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 3: That's an intense amount of control to be able to 599 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 3: control that amount of energy, loss, desire, whatever you want 600 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 3: to call it, and not always do what he did. 601 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: Do you ever think that we're maybe giving it too 602 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: much credit and over complicating it ourselves and just at 603 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: some point he made a decision to do a bad thing. 604 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 3: Well, he made it. He made this decision over and over. 605 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 3: But it's it's like I said, it's an accumulation of things. 606 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, if you're going to talk 607 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 3: to a psychologist, are going to talk about conduct disorders 608 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 3: and you know, or you're going to talk to profilers 609 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 3: and things. I mean, there's places where these guys overlap 610 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: with their tendencies. 611 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: Because no one made him do this. 612 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 3: No, absolutely not. 613 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: No, he wanted to. 614 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 3: He wanted to. But what is that in somebody that 615 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 3: wants to do that. Most of us, the majority of us, 616 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 3: have that moral line we won't cross, even if we're 617 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 3: like a lower level criminal or were doing something in 618 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 3: the spur of a moment. There's a huge difference there, Like, 619 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 3: what is it in these guys that has to do 620 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 3: this to get that release, and then what is it 621 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: about murder that turns them on? 622 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: Were you ever around your dad when the BTK was 623 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: mentioned or on the news or the newspaper or in passing? 624 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: Was it ever mentioned out loud or in the same 625 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 2: room as you? 626 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 3: Not me, but my mom and my brother at least 627 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 3: my brother has memories of being in the house. And 628 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 3: oh for when the thirtieth anniversary special ran for the 629 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 3: O taros like it being on and my dad watching it. 630 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 3: But other than that, there isn't. I think that's about it. 631 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: You and your dad had a lot of fun things 632 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: in common, like reading the true crime books and Stephen 633 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 2: King and the gardening and just different pastimes. So in 634 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, you guys had similarities. But I 635 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 2: would be curious just for you, how are you different 636 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 2: than your dad? What is the main difference here is? 637 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: How is he different? 638 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 3: I'm goodness, I'm my mom, you know, I mean my 639 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: dad had some of that any but he's the passing 640 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: as my mom was the optimist. I'm somewhere in the 641 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 3: mill I'm my mom. I'm the person that loves this 642 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 3: person even at their worst, that just wants to be 643 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: next to somebody. And you know. 644 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 4: Enjoy their time with them. You know, I'm all love, 645 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 4: I'm all feeling, I'm all processing an emotion. That's what 646 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 4: I am and somehow I was raised by this monster. 647 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: This is part one of a conversation between Carrie Rawson 648 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: and Payne Lindsey. Stay tuned for part two, which comes 649 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: out next week.