1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:09,050 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present. 2 00:00:09,110 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Killer Thriller with your host, Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,860 Speaker 3: Hey, everyone. I'm Elisa Donovan, host of Killer Thriller, and 4 00:00:18,980 --> 00:00:24,430 Speaker 3: I am joined today by my Killer Thriller docu-co-host, Jennifer Fessler. 5 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:25,630 Speaker 2: Hi, my love. 6 00:00:25,930 --> 00:00:26,570 Speaker 1: Hi, Jen. Hi. 7 00:00:26,890 --> 00:00:27,050 Speaker 2: Hi. 8 00:00:28,010 --> 00:00:33,150 Speaker 3: So in high-profile trials, we often talk about the defendant, 9 00:00:33,229 --> 00:00:37,330 Speaker 3: the victims, the evidence, and the verdict. But sometimes another 10 00:00:37,370 --> 00:00:41,530 Speaker 3: person starts to attract just as much attention, and that 11 00:00:41,630 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 3: is the lawyer. We become fascinated by how they speak, 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,339 Speaker 3: the questions they ask, their courtroom presence, their personality, even 13 00:00:49,380 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 3: the way they dress. And we watch clips of their cross-examinations. 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 3: We debate whether they're brilliant or ineffective. We see people 15 00:00:57,660 --> 00:01:01,180 Speaker 3: cheering for them online and turning them into memes, following 16 00:01:01,220 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 3: their careers, and sometimes even becoming fans. And so we've 17 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:08,300 Speaker 3: seen this with lawyers like Johnny Cochran and Marsha Clark 18 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:13,289 Speaker 3: during the OJ trial, Leslie Abramson during the Menendez brothers case, 19 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:17,950 Speaker 3: Jose Baez during the Casey Anthony trial, and Camille Vasquez 20 00:01:18,030 --> 00:01:21,810 Speaker 3: during the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial. And we 21 00:01:21,930 --> 00:01:26,350 Speaker 3: are seeing that phenomenon again now with Kevin Reddington, the 22 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:29,990 Speaker 3: attorney in the Lindsay Clancy trial. So today we are 23 00:01:30,050 --> 00:01:34,860 Speaker 3: looking at why certain attorneys capture the public's imagination, how 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: social media has changed the way we watch trials, and 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,820 Speaker 3: whether a lawyer's personality and their ability to tell a 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,580 Speaker 3: compelling story can actually change the way we see the 27 00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 3: person that they are representing. 28 00:01:47,310 --> 00:01:49,910 Speaker 2: I'm so surprised to me that this is the topic 29 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:55,610 Speaker 2: of today's pod because I myself am a little obsessed 30 00:01:55,670 --> 00:02:00,940 Speaker 2: with Kevin Reddington. I cannot lie. And obviously the case 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,660 Speaker 2: is so horrific and there, there's so much about it 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,140 Speaker 2: that's difficult to watch, but this guy is such a badass. 33 00:02:07,860 --> 00:02:12,300 Speaker 2: And so if we sort of extract him from the circumstances, 34 00:02:12,340 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 2: let's say, and just watch his abilities as a lawyer 35 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,530 Speaker 2: and he's so dynamic, And he, you are, I am 36 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:26,340 Speaker 2: fascinated just in terms of watching him move around that courtroom. 37 00:02:26,470 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 3: Well, there's definitely like an authority and a, an assuredness, 38 00:02:30,740 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: but I also feel like what resonates with me with 39 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:39,940 Speaker 3: him is this, the no nonsense sort of very direct quality, 40 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 3: but also there's something about him where you, I really 41 00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:48,950 Speaker 3: feel that this man is, has deep compassion for his clients, 42 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:54,380 Speaker 3: in particular for Lindsay. He cares for this woman's well-being. 43 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 3: And I feel like a lot of the things that 44 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 3: he does, he's trying to stop the extraneous, unnecessary. 45 00:03:03,940 --> 00:03:05,579 Speaker 1: Graphic. 46 00:03:07,669 --> 00:03:10,950 Speaker 3: Just over and over things that, that, that the jury 47 00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 3: doesn't need to hear. They know, they know already these 48 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: horrible things and it's like, he's trying to protect her. Right. 49 00:03:16,540 --> 00:03:19,419 Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I wonder if it had been a 50 00:03:19,460 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: different attorney, if the country would have, and not, not 51 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:25,970 Speaker 2: everybody does, or I didn't know what the percentages are 52 00:03:26,370 --> 00:03:31,050 Speaker 2: rallied around Lindsay in the way that they have. I 53 00:03:31,090 --> 00:03:33,489 Speaker 2: think that, you know, we don't hear from her except 54 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:36,950 Speaker 2: obviously her sobbing. So he is her, her mouthpiece. 55 00:03:37,330 --> 00:03:37,530 Speaker 3: Right. 56 00:03:37,850 --> 00:03:39,890 Speaker 2: I myself don't know if it had been, let's say 57 00:03:39,950 --> 00:03:48,900 Speaker 2: a different attorney who wasn't so commanding and didn't question these, uh, psychiatrists, 58 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 2: social workers, the way that he has didn't ask these 59 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: kinds of questions and didn't have. 60 00:03:56,980 --> 00:03:57,500 Speaker 3: That person. 61 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,100 Speaker 2: I don't, I don't, personality doesn't win you. I hope, 62 00:04:00,140 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: I don't think personality doesn't, doesn't win cases. 63 00:04:02,380 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: Right. 64 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:04,710 Speaker 2: But it does make you more open. It has made 65 00:04:04,770 --> 00:04:08,900 Speaker 2: me more open to understanding what happened here. The fact 66 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,700 Speaker 2: that a mother, and we've spoken about this, Lisa, but 67 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: strangled her three babies with exercise bands is a very 68 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,540 Speaker 2: hard pill to swallow. And I was not... I still 69 00:04:19,580 --> 00:04:22,490 Speaker 2: battle this a little bit. But in terms of whether 70 00:04:22,589 --> 00:04:26,330 Speaker 2: I think that she should be... She should go to 71 00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:30,370 Speaker 2: jail versus a mental hospital. And I think maybe the 72 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:33,390 Speaker 2: majority now feel like she... She didn't get the help 73 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: that she needed, all of that. 74 00:04:34,940 --> 00:04:40,659 Speaker 3: But even the ex-husband, Pat Clancy, in his statements has said, 75 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,570 Speaker 3: this woman, I'm going to paraphrase this, so do not 76 00:04:45,710 --> 00:04:49,730 Speaker 3: quote me, but he generally said, please forgive her. Our 77 00:04:49,830 --> 00:04:54,290 Speaker 3: family is in deep, deep grief. This is not who 78 00:04:54,310 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: this person is. We need to move. 79 00:04:57,300 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: On, kind of thing. 80 00:04:58,060 --> 00:04:58,260 Speaker 2: He's not.. 81 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,500 Speaker 3: Forgiving he's not excusing it but he's saying this woman 82 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: does not. 83 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,780 Speaker 1: Deserve to be decimated the way. 84 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:11,290 Speaker 3: People are trying the way the prosecutor is and i 85 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,510 Speaker 3: think a lot of people are surprised i am as 86 00:05:15,830 --> 00:05:20,150 Speaker 3: as a woman her demeanor about this is so right 87 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:22,930 Speaker 3: it's like what is what is that that quote you 88 00:05:22,970 --> 00:05:25,250 Speaker 3: know uh there's a special place in hell for women 89 00:05:25,270 --> 00:05:26,630 Speaker 3: that don't support other women. 90 00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:30,460 Speaker 2: But Elisa, don't you think that because her demeanor is 91 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: what it is, right? So she already has, I, this 92 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,060 Speaker 2: is my opinion. She is not likable. I don't know 93 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: what she's like in real, not real life. I don't 94 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:42,540 Speaker 2: know what she's like when she's not working. Maybe she's 95 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: a lovely woman. Um, the bows of it all like 96 00:05:46,220 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: that is just the beginning, but her approach is not 97 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,190 Speaker 2: a relatable, likable and His is, and Kevin's is. I'm 98 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,330 Speaker 2: not saying that he's making jokes in the courtroom, kind 99 00:05:58,370 --> 00:06:01,890 Speaker 2: of likable, but he is somebody who feels trustworthy to me. 100 00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:03,970 Speaker 2: He feels like a truth teller to me. 101 00:06:04,330 --> 00:06:07,390 Speaker 3: So do you think this is like partly on gender lines? 102 00:06:07,510 --> 00:06:11,390 Speaker 3: Because I was thinking about this and going, gosh, I 103 00:06:11,529 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: want to not be making a judgment about this prosecutor 104 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 3: being not likable as a woman, right? 105 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:20,540 Speaker 1: I hate that. 106 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,620 Speaker 3: I don't like using crazy to describe women and things, 107 00:06:23,860 --> 00:06:25,740 Speaker 3: but there's something that's like. 108 00:06:25,620 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: A lack of general. 109 00:06:29,170 --> 00:06:33,750 Speaker 3: Decency to say, as a woman, I can understand the 110 00:06:33,810 --> 00:06:37,870 Speaker 3: stresses of parenting or the under, like some sort of like, 111 00:06:38,670 --> 00:06:39,190 Speaker 3: I get that. 112 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:40,830 Speaker 1: And it's not okay what she did. 113 00:06:41,089 --> 00:06:41,330 Speaker 3: Yes. 114 00:06:42,130 --> 00:06:44,180 Speaker 2: I don't know if that would have been a better 115 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: approach for her. I don't, you know, how to, I 116 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:50,380 Speaker 2: don't know what wins cases. Right. But I do know that, um, 117 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,490 Speaker 2: it's not just her, it's some of the other. So 118 00:06:53,650 --> 00:06:56,190 Speaker 2: it's for instance, uh, what was her name? Jennifer Tish. 119 00:06:57,130 --> 00:06:58,050 Speaker 2: Is that the doctor's name? 120 00:06:58,490 --> 00:07:00,630 Speaker 1: The doctor, which one, the one, the one, the young 121 00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:01,309 Speaker 1: one that had only. 122 00:07:01,210 --> 00:07:04,300 Speaker 2: Been practicing for a year. And that only saw all 123 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,750 Speaker 2: these Lindsay, right. Only saw her online. She was also, 124 00:07:07,830 --> 00:07:10,650 Speaker 2: I found her very unlikable. I don't know. And again, 125 00:07:10,670 --> 00:07:12,250 Speaker 2: I don't know what all of this means, except that 126 00:07:12,670 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: today we're talking about not, well, she was, she's not 127 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: Jennifer Tish, not a lawyer. I think that was her name, 128 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: but how much does that matter? These lawyers, their approach, 129 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:26,420 Speaker 2: their personalities, their convictions. I feel from you, I feel 130 00:07:26,460 --> 00:07:30,450 Speaker 2: from him like you do this empathy for Lindsay, this true, 131 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:34,830 Speaker 2: you know, the feeling that he truly does care about 132 00:07:35,030 --> 00:07:39,530 Speaker 2: her and feel like, she is being persecuted and she 133 00:07:39,550 --> 00:07:42,490 Speaker 2: was having a psychotic break and all of that. And 134 00:07:42,510 --> 00:07:44,050 Speaker 2: I find him very believable. 135 00:07:44,170 --> 00:07:46,570 Speaker 3: And yet at the same time, I don't, there's a 136 00:07:46,770 --> 00:07:50,770 Speaker 3: professionalism to it where I don't feel like he's asking 137 00:07:50,860 --> 00:07:54,060 Speaker 3: the jury to be emotional and sort of trying to 138 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,700 Speaker 3: pull on these emotional strings. 139 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,260 Speaker 1: There, there's a real kind of matter of factness about 140 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: what he's doing. 141 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: Agreed. 142 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: But there's a humanness. 143 00:08:04,310 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: Yes, there is. But what is that? So, I mean, 144 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: we're talking about recognizing great lawyering, right? And I think 145 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: there is a large consensus. Everybody thinks that he is 146 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: a great lawyer. But when we're watching the case, are we, 147 00:08:18,940 --> 00:08:24,460 Speaker 2: in fact, responding to charisma and to confidence? And is 148 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:30,750 Speaker 2: that swaying, you know, as people that are watching and 149 00:08:31,290 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: listening and consuming all of this? are we swayed by personality? 150 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: And so I think that Kevin is a perfect first 151 00:08:41,980 --> 00:08:45,780 Speaker 2: example of when a lawyer becomes a piece of the case, 152 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,380 Speaker 2: almost as crucial as the victim, as the judge. 153 00:08:52,420 --> 00:08:56,449 Speaker 3: I think you can't deny how important it is, right? 154 00:08:56,470 --> 00:09:01,070 Speaker 3: I mean, they are your representative. They are representing quite 155 00:09:01,130 --> 00:09:06,140 Speaker 3: literally and figuratively you. So it's a really important thing. 156 00:09:06,179 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 3: And I want to, again, say, we talk about this 157 00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: a lot, but I really want to state out loud 158 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: that I am personally reminded daily by personal friends in 159 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,380 Speaker 3: my life who have gone through unspeakable trauma that these 160 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:30,530 Speaker 3: are real people who are talking about real things that 161 00:09:30,550 --> 00:09:31,729 Speaker 3: are going on in their lives. 162 00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:34,510 Speaker 1: Sometimes when we. 163 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:39,370 Speaker 3: Get into this talking about the theatrics in a courtroom, 164 00:09:40,510 --> 00:09:43,270 Speaker 3: we just have to be very careful to remember that 165 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 3: we are talking about real people. And I think that 166 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:53,940 Speaker 3: became abundantly clear as a reminder when Lindsay was inconsolable, 167 00:09:54,020 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: when she was weeping. It seemed like she was almost 168 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 3: having a panic attack or something. in the courtroom when 169 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 3: she was forced to see these photos of her. 170 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: Children and what she had done. 171 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:14,740 Speaker 3: And it's just so painful for everyone, for the whole family, 172 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:20,939 Speaker 3: for anyone involved. And again, going back to to her lawyer, 173 00:10:21,059 --> 00:10:25,490 Speaker 3: to Kevin Reddington, there is like a dignity and a 174 00:10:25,790 --> 00:10:32,110 Speaker 3: respect to the way he carries himself in these unspeakable 175 00:10:32,170 --> 00:10:35,730 Speaker 3: circumstances that I really respect a lot. 176 00:10:35,770 --> 00:10:38,700 Speaker 2: I do too. Do you think with all of that, 177 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: he has become a key player in the story, right? 178 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,710 Speaker 2: So it's not, so when, when, we step back and 179 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:49,390 Speaker 2: we talk to the people we know about the story 180 00:10:49,510 --> 00:10:53,270 Speaker 2: and about the case. At least my experience has been 181 00:10:53,290 --> 00:11:00,090 Speaker 2: that he has always mentioned disgust. His behavior is dissected 182 00:11:00,170 --> 00:11:01,670 Speaker 2: and how he did this. And did you see when 183 00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:04,730 Speaker 2: he said this? And so, yes, these are real people, 184 00:11:05,390 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: but now he is a real person in this story, 185 00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:12,239 Speaker 2: not just a lawyer, right? At least that's how it 186 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: feels to me. And So it's, it's a little, it's complicated, right? 187 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,579 Speaker 2: Because you start to have feelings, not just for the 188 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:24,380 Speaker 2: victim or the perpetrator, but we, the person, this lawyer 189 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: is now part of the story. At least that's how 190 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: I feel. And I agree with you that I don't 191 00:11:28,830 --> 00:11:30,410 Speaker 2: know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. 192 00:11:30,510 --> 00:11:34,510 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I know that, that it's, you know, it's, 193 00:11:34,910 --> 00:11:37,030 Speaker 2: he didn't, he wasn't there. He had nothing to do 194 00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:40,729 Speaker 2: obviously with what happened, but we are discussing him almost 195 00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:43,530 Speaker 2: as much as we are discussing Lindsay's. 196 00:11:44,010 --> 00:11:47,730 Speaker 3: I think that they probably must understand that when taking 197 00:11:47,929 --> 00:11:51,770 Speaker 3: on a high profile case like this, or I suppose 198 00:11:51,790 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 3: you don't always necessarily know it will become that, but 199 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,660 Speaker 3: in this case, I think it was clear that that 200 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 3: is sort of a part of the deal that you 201 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 3: potentially are going to be under a microscope and people 202 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: will have judgments about everything you do and, you know, 203 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,820 Speaker 3: look at Marsha Clark is the first one that really 204 00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:14,700 Speaker 3: comes to mind for me in that regard. 205 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,100 Speaker 1: That she was put through the. 206 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: Ringer, that woman, during that trial. And nobody was more 207 00:12:20,970 --> 00:12:25,110 Speaker 3: prepared than her. Nobody was more professional. She was such 208 00:12:25,309 --> 00:12:30,190 Speaker 3: a phenomenal lawyer. And it came down to people talking 209 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:34,270 Speaker 3: about her haircut and whether she was likable as a 210 00:12:34,309 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: woman and all of these things that it just is like, 211 00:12:38,220 --> 00:12:40,300 Speaker 3: And I think in that case, it really did start 212 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:47,740 Speaker 3: to unravel certainly how the public felt about the case. 213 00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: I just feel like it's such a dicey area. 214 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: Agreed. And that is another perfect example of when the 215 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,900 Speaker 2: lawyers become characters in the story. And she spoke about, 216 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,020 Speaker 2: I guess one day she wore a white dress and 217 00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: she was, and you know, everybody was critiquing everything about 218 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,810 Speaker 2: her from her hair to her manner. And I guess 219 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:15,470 Speaker 2: I just read this. Somebody said, why are you wearing 220 00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:17,110 Speaker 2: a white dress? Like, in other words, is there meaning 221 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:18,850 Speaker 2: behind it? She said, yeah, because it was clean. 222 00:13:19,570 --> 00:13:19,810 Speaker 3: Right. 223 00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:20,630 Speaker 1: Exactly. 224 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:23,650 Speaker 3: Because she's like, I'm working a hundred hours a day 225 00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:27,270 Speaker 3: and I'm going from home to court back and forth. 226 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,300 Speaker 3: Like I'm not right. I'm not going and getting my 227 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: hair done every day. 228 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:34,770 Speaker 2: No. And she said she originally, I guess, she, so 229 00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 2: she was, um, working as a defense attorney privately and 230 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,179 Speaker 2: then really wanted to, uh, be there for victims and 231 00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:47,740 Speaker 2: became this, you know, civil servant or prosecutor, federal prosecutor 232 00:13:47,780 --> 00:13:50,540 Speaker 2: or whatever. And that's when she said she stopped having 233 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: that much money and she cut her hair because she 234 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:56,140 Speaker 2: just couldn't deal with it anymore. I guess the expense 235 00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: of it and it was such a focus, you know, 236 00:13:59,210 --> 00:14:02,210 Speaker 2: there was so much focus on it and it's just 237 00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: like a, it's a great example of when the lawyer 238 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,170 Speaker 2: becomes part of the narrative. Yeah. It's really, it's really, 239 00:14:09,190 --> 00:14:11,569 Speaker 2: and like you, I felt so, I was felt sick 240 00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:13,170 Speaker 2: for her. It was awful. And she said it was 241 00:14:13,190 --> 00:14:14,910 Speaker 2: like a nightmare every single day. 242 00:14:14,929 --> 00:14:15,449 Speaker 3: Right. 243 00:14:15,490 --> 00:14:17,230 Speaker 2: And she said she never even had a chance because 244 00:14:17,309 --> 00:14:21,070 Speaker 2: OJ was OJ. And she truly believed that there from 245 00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: the beginning, there was not, that he was, they didn't, the, 246 00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: the prosecution didn't stand a chance. 247 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:28,860 Speaker 3: Right. Right. 248 00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:45,210 Speaker 2: And then there's the Johnny Cochran of it all. 249 00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:46,410 Speaker 1: Right. 250 00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:52,100 Speaker 3: I mean, this is, again, that is all so curious 251 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 3: because of how that case became so much about race, right? 252 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: The defense turned the whole thing. 253 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,300 Speaker 3: On its head and made it about race when, ironically, 254 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,750 Speaker 3: OJ is the one that got special treatment. 255 00:15:07,430 --> 00:15:08,950 Speaker 1: Because he was such a celebrity. 256 00:15:09,380 --> 00:15:13,350 Speaker 3: So really this was not, if it was about race, it, it, 257 00:15:13,830 --> 00:15:16,650 Speaker 3: you know, he's the one that got the special treatment, 258 00:15:16,830 --> 00:15:18,490 Speaker 3: not so. 259 00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:21,410 Speaker 1: And then Johnny Cochran, but you know, that was what 260 00:15:21,490 --> 00:15:22,150 Speaker 1: he used. 261 00:15:22,190 --> 00:15:25,490 Speaker 3: He quote unquote, you know, pulled the, the race card, 262 00:15:25,530 --> 00:15:28,510 Speaker 3: which is a very genius, you know, and tapped into 263 00:15:28,530 --> 00:15:30,670 Speaker 3: what was going on in Los Angeles at the time, 264 00:15:30,730 --> 00:15:34,820 Speaker 3: which was very real. And there were real racist cops and, 265 00:15:36,070 --> 00:15:40,110 Speaker 3: violent racism that was rampant. And it was right after 266 00:15:40,130 --> 00:15:45,730 Speaker 3: the Rodney King trial. So everybody was very heightened and 267 00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:48,390 Speaker 3: aware of the deep-seated racism. 268 00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:51,770 Speaker 1: So it was a genius defense. It really was. 269 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: But also Johnny Cochran, if we're talking about lawyers, Kevin Reddington, charisma, 270 00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:01,180 Speaker 2: he had such charisma. I mean, that line, if it 271 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: doesn't fit. 272 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: You must quit. 273 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:06,420 Speaker 2: That became... These days you'd call it, what, a meme, 274 00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:07,380 Speaker 2: a gif? I don't even know. 275 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:08,570 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. 276 00:16:08,590 --> 00:16:12,290 Speaker 2: But just the way he said it and the way 277 00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:14,870 Speaker 2: that it, you know, it's spiraled and we know that 278 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:17,610 Speaker 2: line so well. And that's about Johnny Cochran. That's not 279 00:16:17,650 --> 00:16:22,370 Speaker 2: about OJ. It's not about Nicole Brown Simpson. Right. And so, 280 00:16:22,990 --> 00:16:25,590 Speaker 2: you know, I think, and we're seeing it, listen, that 281 00:16:25,630 --> 00:16:27,310 Speaker 2: was a while ago, but there are so many more 282 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,700 Speaker 2: recent cases like Kevin Reddington of lawyers, you know, becoming 283 00:16:32,740 --> 00:16:36,450 Speaker 2: famous in their own right, Camille Vasquez. who defended Johnny 284 00:16:36,510 --> 00:16:38,410 Speaker 2: Depp against Amber Heard. 285 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:42,750 Speaker 3: She, yeah, that was a curious one for me because 286 00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: I have such mixed feelings about that entire situation. But she, 287 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,180 Speaker 3: why was she so, what specifically made her kind of 288 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:56,820 Speaker 3: catch everyone's eye? 289 00:16:57,020 --> 00:17:00,380 Speaker 2: Well, okay, so I guess different things can be said 290 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: and probably have been said about her. Very attractive woman. 291 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: Obviously representing Johnny instead of Amber. 292 00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:12,790 Speaker 2: Representing Johnny instead of Amber. I thought she was a 293 00:17:12,910 --> 00:17:19,590 Speaker 2: brilliant attorney and held certain hands to the fire. When 294 00:17:19,609 --> 00:17:21,630 Speaker 2: you say you have different feelings about the case, maybe 295 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: you think that maybe you were team Amber. I don't know. 296 00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:28,459 Speaker 2: I was not. I was definitely team Johnny Depp. But 297 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,219 Speaker 2: with all of that, if we put that aside for 298 00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:34,180 Speaker 2: a second, what is it, how did she manage to 299 00:17:35,290 --> 00:17:40,250 Speaker 2: have the media so amazed and attentive and, and they 300 00:17:40,290 --> 00:17:43,380 Speaker 2: were really, again, she was a character in the story. 301 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:45,139 Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you the name of the person who 302 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:46,460 Speaker 2: defended Amber Heard. Could you? 303 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 3: Right. 304 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: No, I don't know. No. 305 00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:52,260 Speaker 3: I mean, then there also were rumors that she was 306 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:54,820 Speaker 3: involved with Johnny Depp. And so this is like where 307 00:17:55,220 --> 00:18:00,290 Speaker 3: like romantically involved, which she then said was laughable, which, 308 00:18:00,510 --> 00:18:02,149 Speaker 3: you know, the press is always going to try to 309 00:18:02,450 --> 00:18:04,869 Speaker 3: make drum something up somewhere. 310 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:06,740 Speaker 1: But again, I. 311 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 3: Always feel so conflicted when kind of looking at the 312 00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:14,889 Speaker 3: typical gender roles. Like, I hate to keep bringing it 313 00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:17,330 Speaker 3: back to this, but I can't help but thinking about 314 00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:20,469 Speaker 3: it even, but think about it with, you know, are 315 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:24,510 Speaker 3: we looking at Kevin Reddington as, you know, capable and 316 00:18:24,609 --> 00:18:27,790 Speaker 3: all these things because he's like, you know, the. 317 00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:30,669 Speaker 1: Father figure and older white guy? 318 00:18:31,130 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. But guess what? Camille Vasquez was, was... not any 319 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,460 Speaker 2: of those things. She was the opposite of those things. Right. Right. 320 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,939 Speaker 3: But then it's like, we're making the presses making these 321 00:18:39,980 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 3: stories that, Oh, it's because she's, you know, sleeping with 322 00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:43,629 Speaker 3: Johnny Depp. 323 00:18:43,710 --> 00:18:46,730 Speaker 2: But I don't think that's why she commanded the attention 324 00:18:46,770 --> 00:18:50,470 Speaker 2: she commanded. I think it was almost similar to Kevin 325 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:53,390 Speaker 2: Reddington in, in a way, the way she moved around 326 00:18:53,410 --> 00:18:58,670 Speaker 2: that courtroom was such, um, she was so, uh, assured 327 00:18:58,869 --> 00:18:59,770 Speaker 2: and so self-assured. 328 00:18:59,910 --> 00:19:00,090 Speaker 3: Right. 329 00:19:00,150 --> 00:19:01,850 Speaker 1: Like an ease and a confidence. 330 00:19:01,950 --> 00:19:02,050 Speaker 3: Yes. 331 00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:03,770 Speaker 2: And not only an ease and a confidence, there was 332 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:07,990 Speaker 2: a toughness there. And you, I felt like she, maybe 333 00:19:08,450 --> 00:19:10,250 Speaker 2: similar in a way that I, when I look at 334 00:19:10,270 --> 00:19:12,490 Speaker 2: Kevin Reddington, the way that he, you see that he really, 335 00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:16,580 Speaker 2: really believes what he's defending. And I feel like she felt, 336 00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: she did too. Like he, the way Kevin felt about, 337 00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:21,220 Speaker 2: it's a totally different situation, obviously. 338 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: Sure. 339 00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:25,889 Speaker 2: But it feels like he is so personally involved in 340 00:19:26,030 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 2: exonerating Lindsay Clancy. And I felt the same way. Camille 341 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: Vasquez felt very connected to what she was doing and 342 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 2: very assured that she was on the right side of history. 343 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,650 Speaker 2: So I don't know if it was, I was amazed 344 00:19:42,750 --> 00:19:45,790 Speaker 2: by her, both of them in similar way. 345 00:19:45,810 --> 00:19:49,220 Speaker 3: I mean, as you were just saying that, it was 346 00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:53,810 Speaker 3: making me think that these... these lawyers sort of give 347 00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:58,090 Speaker 3: me the sense of like a renewed belief in the 348 00:19:58,130 --> 00:20:02,629 Speaker 3: system or something, or like a hope for justice in 349 00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:06,379 Speaker 3: some regard, because it's not a zoo, you know? I 350 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: don't feel like either of them made the courtroom a zoo, 351 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:12,340 Speaker 3: you know? 352 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: Like a spectacle. 353 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,830 Speaker 3: It was really like, this is what's going on and 354 00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 3: this is what needs to be addressed and why, as 355 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,300 Speaker 3: opposed to kind of histrionics and things. 356 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: So I wonder how much of it, of it with 357 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: these lawyers, obviously we're talking about unbelievable lawyers here, but 358 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,060 Speaker 2: is their own personal, because I feel like you could 359 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,140 Speaker 2: feel their personal conviction that their clients are innocent and 360 00:20:40,810 --> 00:20:41,609 Speaker 2: it comes through. 361 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, because Reddington consistently emphasizes Lindsay as a mother and 362 00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:51,340 Speaker 3: her relationship with the children, the family photos, and her 363 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 3: behavior before the mental deterioration. And I mean, that part 364 00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:03,870 Speaker 3: of the narrative is very important for her particular plea. 365 00:21:04,369 --> 00:21:10,830 Speaker 3: And even I was very moved by her mother-in-law's testimony 366 00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:13,030 Speaker 3: And saying- As was I. Yeah. 367 00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:15,190 Speaker 1: This is a person who was crying for help. 368 00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:15,790 Speaker 3: Yes. 369 00:21:16,010 --> 00:21:20,430 Speaker 2: And when she was cross-examined, the prosecutor said, do you 370 00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:23,340 Speaker 2: know that Lindsay said that you guys weren't close? Did 371 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,820 Speaker 2: you see that? Yes, I did. Do you know that- 372 00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: Almost like- Like a- It felt- Like, by the way, 373 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:33,660 Speaker 2: Lindsay's talking badly about you. Yes, it was so petty 374 00:21:33,850 --> 00:21:36,330 Speaker 2: and so- It felt so petty to me too. 375 00:21:36,550 --> 00:21:37,550 Speaker 1: And insensitive. 376 00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:38,270 Speaker 2: And insensitive. 377 00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:41,490 Speaker 1: This woman lost three grandchildren and a daughter-in-law. 378 00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:44,070 Speaker 2: Lindsay said you weren't close. I mean, honestly, that just 379 00:21:44,109 --> 00:21:47,710 Speaker 2: felt so irrelevant. But- Yeah. So now we're watching this 380 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:50,510 Speaker 2: lawyer again whose name I do not know. Do you? 381 00:21:52,350 --> 00:21:52,490 Speaker 3: No. 382 00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:53,290 Speaker 2: I mean- I did. 383 00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:55,060 Speaker 1: I do, but it goes in and it goes out. 384 00:21:55,450 --> 00:21:55,630 Speaker 3: Right. 385 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,980 Speaker 2: All I do is think about the bows, but I- 386 00:21:58,490 --> 00:22:00,229 Speaker 2: I don't know who, I don't know what her name is. 387 00:22:00,950 --> 00:22:06,310 Speaker 2: And it just, it, she's not likable to me and 388 00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:11,050 Speaker 2: he is. And, and truthfully, I, I don't know if 389 00:22:11,070 --> 00:22:13,490 Speaker 2: that has to do with, he's a father figure, maybe, maybe, 390 00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:16,580 Speaker 2: but then we do talk about, you know, Camille Vasquez 391 00:22:17,170 --> 00:22:21,740 Speaker 2: and there are so many other attorneys that female attorneys, 392 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: I think that have become really memorable because of not 393 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,940 Speaker 2: only their performance, but really now that I'm, we're talking 394 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:33,149 Speaker 2: about it, their commitment to their clients, Leslie Abramson represented 395 00:22:33,310 --> 00:22:34,350 Speaker 2: Eric Hernandez. 396 00:22:34,810 --> 00:22:35,050 Speaker 3: Yes. 397 00:22:35,130 --> 00:22:36,669 Speaker 1: With the blonde curly hair. 398 00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:39,910 Speaker 3: Also, they tried to like, they said tons of things 399 00:22:39,970 --> 00:22:45,070 Speaker 3: about her physical appearance also, you know, just like raked 400 00:22:45,109 --> 00:22:50,070 Speaker 3: her over the coals. And she so clearly was like 401 00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:53,730 Speaker 3: a kind of mother figure in my opinion to them 402 00:22:53,790 --> 00:22:56,830 Speaker 3: that's how I felt she felt very maternal like she 403 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:03,550 Speaker 3: cared about these boys while understanding the horrific crimes that 404 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:07,169 Speaker 3: they committed you know in no way saying these are 405 00:23:07,230 --> 00:23:11,850 Speaker 3: justifiable I think that's the thing that's so important that 406 00:23:11,890 --> 00:23:14,930 Speaker 3: these lawyers that we remember so much do is that 407 00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:22,050 Speaker 3: they're able to make us feel empathy while not excusing 408 00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:25,350 Speaker 3: the clients for what they've done in the cases where 409 00:23:25,390 --> 00:23:27,950 Speaker 3: they are, you know, guilty. Yes. 410 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 2: I think I agree. I think she's a good example 411 00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:33,459 Speaker 2: of that. And I believe in the first trial, there 412 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 2: was a hung jury, right? 413 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:38,460 Speaker 1: And she was, yes. 414 00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: And she was so, uh, and, and they knew she 415 00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:44,540 Speaker 2: never tried to, uh, deny that he did it. 416 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:44,820 Speaker 3: Right. 417 00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: That was never, it was all about, um, it was 418 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 2: all about that horrific father and, um, you know, what 419 00:23:51,540 --> 00:23:56,130 Speaker 2: he had done to these boys. And she was really 420 00:23:57,230 --> 00:24:02,350 Speaker 2: successful at, you know, convincing the first jury, not maybe 421 00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:04,909 Speaker 2: all of them, I don't remember. Do you still say 422 00:24:04,930 --> 00:24:07,590 Speaker 2: hung jury? I think so. Okay, wait a second. This 423 00:24:07,630 --> 00:24:11,510 Speaker 2: kid basically had no other choice. He was, you know, 424 00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: this came out of years and years and years of 425 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:19,300 Speaker 2: sexual abuse and physical abuse and lost his mind. 426 00:24:19,940 --> 00:24:23,010 Speaker 3: Do you think, does understanding someone psychologically make us more 427 00:24:23,140 --> 00:24:26,649 Speaker 3: likely to believe that they weren't legally responsible? 428 00:24:27,109 --> 00:24:31,070 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that is such... Now, I 429 00:24:31,109 --> 00:24:33,090 Speaker 2: think about that a lot with the Lindsay Clancy trial 430 00:24:33,109 --> 00:24:37,070 Speaker 2: because you will hear there are plenty of people who 431 00:24:37,109 --> 00:24:39,510 Speaker 2: feel like, okay, so let's say she had a psychotic break. 432 00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 2: Aren't most murderers mentally ill? I mean, you do... Right. 433 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,870 Speaker 1: This is the question. I'm just saying this is.. 434 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,500 Speaker 2: So if you understand, let's say there's a murderer who 435 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:58,180 Speaker 2: has been abused his whole life, and physically, sexually, emotionally, 436 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,850 Speaker 2: years and years and years and years. Does that count? 437 00:25:02,970 --> 00:25:06,869 Speaker 2: So that is, I don't know. I can't answer that. 438 00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:11,969 Speaker 2: I just know in Lindsay's case, specifically, I think for 439 00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 2: you and I and many women, we know that she 440 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,260 Speaker 2: went against Every instinct. 441 00:25:18,340 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: Every instinct that she has. 442 00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:21,540 Speaker 2: And the fact that she has to live with this 443 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:24,090 Speaker 2: for the rest of her life. There's no good news 444 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:24,910 Speaker 2: for her, period. 445 00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:29,310 Speaker 3: There's so much testimony that's stated what a great mother 446 00:25:29,369 --> 00:25:33,629 Speaker 3: she was before this, how she loved her children. So 447 00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:36,169 Speaker 3: the care that she had for them, the kind of 448 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:37,859 Speaker 3: person that she was. 449 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,710 Speaker 1: And then you can see the slow progress. demise. 450 00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:45,190 Speaker 2: I know. And how much, how much she tried to 451 00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:48,929 Speaker 2: get help, you know, but again, these lawyers, you know, 452 00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:53,540 Speaker 2: Kevin is doing an unbelievable job of, you know, giving 453 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,780 Speaker 2: us that background. And I think that some, a lot 454 00:25:57,820 --> 00:26:00,340 Speaker 2: of these lawyers that we're talking about, you know, that is, 455 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:07,380 Speaker 2: they are brilliant at that. And I do think that personality, um, 456 00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:11,379 Speaker 2: style probably does play a role I don't know how 457 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,140 Speaker 2: much of a role, I don't know if that's fair 458 00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: or not. I really, I can't say, but I just 459 00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 2: know that the ones that are, that we talk about often, 460 00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:26,980 Speaker 2: oftentimes have this, I thought Camille Vasquez had unbelievable charisma 461 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:30,540 Speaker 2: or that she was her, if it's a performance, she 462 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: was not an actress, but she was a master at 463 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,020 Speaker 2: her craft or is a master at her craft. 464 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:38,260 Speaker 1: Yeah. 465 00:26:39,030 --> 00:26:42,850 Speaker 2: Side note, by the way, she's actually a partner in 466 00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:43,619 Speaker 2: my husband's firm. 467 00:26:43,970 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: Camille is? 468 00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:47,420 Speaker 2: Camille is, yeah. Oh, you're kidding. So now I feel. 469 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: Like this is biased. 470 00:26:49,859 --> 00:26:52,459 Speaker 2: Maybe, because I did call her once when I was 471 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 2: being lied about, about something very silly, reality TV bullshit 472 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: that we will not mention. And I was like, we 473 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,340 Speaker 2: are calling Camille because it was slander. And so, yeah, 474 00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: so I could, I do have, I have, you. 475 00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:10,180 Speaker 1: Have a little bit of a bias. 476 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: She didn't say that. She was actually wonderful about it. 477 00:27:16,330 --> 00:27:20,929 Speaker 2: So I do have a special affinity for her and anyway, 478 00:27:20,970 --> 00:27:23,290 Speaker 2: but I do think what I, I, before all of that, 479 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: I was fascinated by her. 480 00:27:26,380 --> 00:27:29,180 Speaker 3: I'd be so curious to hear, you know, once this 481 00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:34,810 Speaker 3: is done, what the jury, you know, like their, their 482 00:27:34,850 --> 00:27:37,530 Speaker 3: feelings about all of this, you know, their being in 483 00:27:37,630 --> 00:27:41,950 Speaker 3: the room, the, their interpretations of that and how effective 484 00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:42,270 Speaker 3: it is. 485 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: What do you think is going to happen by the way? 486 00:27:59,850 --> 00:28:02,970 Speaker 3: I really hope for the sake of this woman, I 487 00:28:03,090 --> 00:28:06,030 Speaker 3: see it just to your point of what you just said, 488 00:28:06,090 --> 00:28:07,330 Speaker 3: there is no. 489 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,060 Speaker 1: Positive end for this woman. No, there is not. It 490 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,980 Speaker 1: is very clear that she is a broken person now. 491 00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: And I. 492 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,300 Speaker 3: Pray for her heart, soul, body, everything, and for that 493 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,210 Speaker 3: whole family. I just want for them, I want it 494 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:33,260 Speaker 3: to be over. And I hope that she is not 495 00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:38,260 Speaker 3: put into a prison cell with these hardened criminals who 496 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,620 Speaker 3: are murderers. I just don't think that's where she belongs. 497 00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: I think you talk about this. It's so funny. I 498 00:28:45,140 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: agree with you, but I just see like the, I 499 00:28:48,860 --> 00:28:51,540 Speaker 2: see the empathy and I know how this is like, 500 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: you're watching this trial and how your heart is breaking 501 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:54,340 Speaker 2: for her. 502 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:54,940 Speaker 1: Yeah. 503 00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:58,820 Speaker 2: You are clearly not alone. Mine as well. But I 504 00:28:59,150 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: don't want her to go to jail. I don't want 505 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: her to be out in the world, though. I can't 506 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: say that I want to watch her. 507 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:11,420 Speaker 3: No, she needs to have some long-term, long, long, long-term care. 508 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: Yes. So I definitely think that she has to be 509 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:19,100 Speaker 2: behind bars, behind hospital walls. I don't want to see 510 00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:22,270 Speaker 2: her go to prison. I want to see her, though, 511 00:29:22,290 --> 00:29:26,930 Speaker 2: locked up maybe forever. I don't know how that sounds right. 512 00:29:27,220 --> 00:29:29,770 Speaker 2: If that maybe sounds cold or not, but.. 513 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:35,570 Speaker 3: You know, when I think about the whole family and 514 00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:41,140 Speaker 3: meaning her ex-husband, the father of those children, and both 515 00:29:41,180 --> 00:29:46,930 Speaker 3: of their families, this will never end. 516 00:29:47,130 --> 00:29:47,390 Speaker 2: No. 517 00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:47,710 Speaker 1: It won't. 518 00:29:47,790 --> 00:29:49,630 Speaker 2: No. Their lives are ruined forever. 519 00:29:49,690 --> 00:29:53,380 Speaker 1: Their lives are changed forever. And I. 520 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 3: Feel I just want the thing that is for the best, 521 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,190 Speaker 3: the highest good for all of them. And I just 522 00:30:02,210 --> 00:30:05,010 Speaker 3: feel like being in a prison cell is not that. 523 00:30:05,030 --> 00:30:05,990 Speaker 2: I don't, I agree with you. 524 00:30:06,370 --> 00:30:06,590 Speaker 1: Yeah. 525 00:30:06,670 --> 00:30:08,370 Speaker 2: But I don't, but I do think that a hospital 526 00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,930 Speaker 2: where there are people and, and, and I, yeah. 527 00:30:12,910 --> 00:30:13,250 Speaker 3: Yes. 528 00:30:13,270 --> 00:30:16,650 Speaker 2: My stand on it. But anyway, you know, lawyers. 529 00:30:17,090 --> 00:30:21,060 Speaker 3: It's hard because this is so, you know, I mean, 530 00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:25,060 Speaker 3: she could become one of these people that ultimately gets 531 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,340 Speaker 3: to make an effect change based on what she did. 532 00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:34,740 Speaker 1: She could become a person who's able to speak on this. 533 00:30:35,530 --> 00:30:40,469 Speaker 3: And again, not like needs to be wherever, whatever facility 534 00:30:40,610 --> 00:30:41,110 Speaker 3: is right. 535 00:30:41,790 --> 00:30:43,729 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that necessarily as she needs, it's not 536 00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:47,950 Speaker 2: about punishment. What I'm, I think that she needs to 537 00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:51,180 Speaker 2: be away because I think that she is, she would 538 00:30:51,220 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 2: not be in my humble opinion, fit to walk among 539 00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:59,489 Speaker 2: us out in society. I think she, That's just my 540 00:30:59,510 --> 00:31:02,030 Speaker 2: own personal opinion. But it doesn't mean that I don't empathize, 541 00:31:02,130 --> 00:31:06,830 Speaker 2: that I don't want to see her locked up in 542 00:31:06,850 --> 00:31:08,270 Speaker 2: a cell either. I really don't. 543 00:31:08,990 --> 00:31:12,390 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it really speaks volumes that the family 544 00:31:12,670 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 3: is not saying that that's what they want. That the 545 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 3: testimony and any statements that I've read anyway all seem 546 00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:29,130 Speaker 3: to come from a place of obviously devastation mortified that 547 00:31:29,170 --> 00:31:32,690 Speaker 3: this has happened, but no one wants to like put 548 00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:33,310 Speaker 3: her to death. 549 00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:36,610 Speaker 1: No one wants to, they just are sort of broken 550 00:31:37,050 --> 00:31:37,610 Speaker 1: all around. 551 00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: And do you think that with a different lawyer, we 552 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,500 Speaker 2: would have, yeah, this would have been so evident. You 553 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,219 Speaker 2: think that any, you're saying that you think that with 554 00:31:45,260 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: a different lawyer, we would have still, you would have, 555 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,550 Speaker 2: you personally would have still felt this way. 556 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,740 Speaker 3: I personally would have, but I think, no, I thought you're, 557 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 3: I was going to say, I think you're right. That 558 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 3: with a different lawyer, he, she, he, she might not 559 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,220 Speaker 3: be getting as much empathy or as much understanding. And again, 560 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 3: I think it's because he's so skilled as well as 561 00:32:04,740 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 3: having a heart and a humanness about him. So he's 562 00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 3: not trying to, again, over-emotionalize everything in any way. Yeah. 563 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: Because I think most lawyers, if they're, if they're her 564 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: defense lawyer, this is the way they're going to go 565 00:32:19,860 --> 00:32:22,100 Speaker 2: in terms of like, she had a psychotic break and 566 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: they're going to, you know, they're going to put, all 567 00:32:24,860 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 2: of the doctors that, that were not there and didn't 568 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,100 Speaker 2: do the right thing on the stand. And they're going 569 00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: to do very similar. I think similar things to what 570 00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:38,460 Speaker 2: Kevin Reddington has done. I wonder though, could they all 571 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:38,900 Speaker 2: have been. 572 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,290 Speaker 1: This effective, this effective? 573 00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:43,110 Speaker 2: I know they all have won us over, you know, 574 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,570 Speaker 2: as watchers of the trial. 575 00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:44,850 Speaker 3: Yep. 576 00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:47,630 Speaker 2: Could they have won us over in the way that 577 00:32:47,710 --> 00:32:48,190 Speaker 2: he has? 578 00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:51,210 Speaker 1: This is a great question. I don't know. 579 00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 3: And again, I think that is, interestingly enough, it's almost 580 00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:02,550 Speaker 3: because it's like this non-judgment, it's not the right word. 581 00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:08,870 Speaker 3: There's a professionalism, but an authenticity and a clarity and 582 00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:14,390 Speaker 3: a humanness that is It doesn't feel biased, I guess. 583 00:33:14,410 --> 00:33:15,970 Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like he's. 584 00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:18,030 Speaker 2: Well, he's done this before. I want to say he's 585 00:33:18,130 --> 00:33:20,970 Speaker 2: done this before. He's had cases. 586 00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:24,010 Speaker 1: He's represented some very controversial people. 587 00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:24,790 Speaker 3: Right? 588 00:33:25,270 --> 00:33:25,550 Speaker 1: Yes. 589 00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:28,380 Speaker 2: Right? So I want to say a priest? 590 00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 3: Yes, one of the first, if not the first, priests 591 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 3: that was convicted of pedophilia in the Catholic Church. Right. 592 00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:39,700 Speaker 1: Because if you remember, that was all in Boston when it— Right. 593 00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:42,900 Speaker 1: The first— That movie. 594 00:33:41,940 --> 00:33:42,770 Speaker 2: Was based on it. 595 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: Spotlight. 596 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:44,420 Speaker 2: Spotlight, right. 597 00:33:45,260 --> 00:33:48,500 Speaker 3: I did hear an interesting quote out of Kevin Reddington's 598 00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:52,970 Speaker 3: mouth that something to the effect of, you know, why 599 00:33:53,030 --> 00:33:56,130 Speaker 3: he became a defense attorney. And he said, I just, 600 00:33:57,370 --> 00:34:01,370 Speaker 3: I don't have it in me to try to prosecute 601 00:34:01,430 --> 00:34:03,790 Speaker 3: someone to put them in prison. Like I don't have 602 00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:07,170 Speaker 3: it in me to want to imprison another human being. 603 00:34:08,010 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: And I just thought that was a very interesting quote. 604 00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: really human way to look. 605 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,420 Speaker 2: At his job. I don't know if that's a good 606 00:34:18,460 --> 00:34:19,779 Speaker 2: thing or not. I don't know if that's a good 607 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:25,609 Speaker 2: thing for our legal system, for the law. I don't know. 608 00:34:25,650 --> 00:34:27,650 Speaker 2: I just love him. Yeah. I do. 609 00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:33,590 Speaker 3: It just seems like a very pure intention. It certainly does. 610 00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:35,910 Speaker 3: He's in the right field. He has the right job 611 00:34:35,969 --> 00:34:36,670 Speaker 3: for himself. 612 00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:41,050 Speaker 2: It's such an interesting question though, right? How much personality, 613 00:34:41,070 --> 00:34:44,069 Speaker 2: like his, his stuff. He doesn't want to put people 614 00:34:44,110 --> 00:34:46,009 Speaker 2: in jail. None of that should have a bearing on 615 00:34:46,090 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 2: how we feel about this case, who he is as 616 00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: a person. It should be facts, right? Like I am 617 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 2: right now, if I'm being completely honest, he could basically 618 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,050 Speaker 2: say almost anything and I'm going to be. 619 00:35:00,070 --> 00:35:02,129 Speaker 1: You're going to be on his side. 620 00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:02,770 Speaker 3: Yep. 621 00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:03,790 Speaker 1: Interesting. 622 00:35:03,850 --> 00:35:05,370 Speaker 3: I mean, this is why we got to talk to 623 00:35:05,410 --> 00:35:07,190 Speaker 3: one of the jurors when this is over. 624 00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:10,550 Speaker 2: I mean, he won me over. And I think that 625 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: it's a, listen, that's why some of them make the 626 00:35:15,620 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: big bucks, I guess. They're really good at their jobs. But, 627 00:35:19,739 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 2: you know, and they stick with us. 628 00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:24,700 Speaker 3: I think it's also because of social media where everybody, 629 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,540 Speaker 3: you can watch just little snippets of these cases and 630 00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:32,930 Speaker 3: it gets put into your algorithm and then you're seeing 631 00:35:32,989 --> 00:35:34,790 Speaker 3: all these things and you don't even have to watch 632 00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:35,529 Speaker 3: the entire thing. 633 00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:37,780 Speaker 1: You just get like, highlights. 634 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,549 Speaker 2: And then, you know, and then social media knows that 635 00:35:41,610 --> 00:35:43,810 Speaker 2: I love him. So now I'm getting all, you know, uh, 636 00:35:43,810 --> 00:35:52,030 Speaker 2: fucking Kevin Reddington, Stan, you know, right. And his biker shorts. 637 00:35:52,110 --> 00:35:54,450 Speaker 1: Like you're just getting. 638 00:35:54,430 --> 00:35:55,150 Speaker 2: All of it. 639 00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:56,030 Speaker 3: Right. 640 00:35:58,210 --> 00:35:58,779 Speaker 1: Oh man. 641 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 2: I guess the question is like, what makes us remember 642 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: the lawyer almost as much as we remember the trials? 643 00:36:06,580 --> 00:36:08,940 Speaker 3: And when we like the lawyer, does that make us 644 00:36:09,020 --> 00:36:13,790 Speaker 3: more likely to like or at least understand the person 645 00:36:13,870 --> 00:36:15,150 Speaker 3: that they're defending? 646 00:36:15,570 --> 00:36:17,050 Speaker 1: I think the answer to that is yes. 647 00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:22,410 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. So I know that we can't answer this. 648 00:36:25,110 --> 00:36:28,310 Speaker 2: We are not psychiatrists. We are not even on the jury. 649 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:31,859 Speaker 2: But I think these are important questions. 650 00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:32,969 Speaker 1: I think they are too. 651 00:36:33,110 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 3: And I think really with specifically to Lindsay Clancy, which 652 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 3: I think we say over and over that I just 653 00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:43,299 Speaker 3: think it's especially important in cases like this that are 654 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,500 Speaker 3: so difficult and so devastating. And he isn't just arguing 655 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 3: a legal defense. He's also presenting a way for the 656 00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 3: jury and for the public to look at Lindsay to 657 00:36:55,700 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 3: have some compassion and humanity. Yeah. 658 00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:05,669 Speaker 2: I mean, listeners weigh in. I'm curious about everyone's opinions 659 00:37:05,969 --> 00:37:06,330 Speaker 2: on this. 660 00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:09,830 Speaker 3: Again, I want to make sure that people understand when 661 00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:13,070 Speaker 3: I am saying these things about having compassion for Lindsay 662 00:37:13,150 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 3: that I am also saying at the very same time, 663 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 3: it's horrific what she did. And I have more compassion 664 00:37:24,060 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 3: for the father of those children and And his family 665 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 3: and her family, like it's everyone. It's devastating for everyone involved. 666 00:37:35,540 --> 00:37:37,620 Speaker 2: I don't think you've ever sounded like you just have 667 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:43,100 Speaker 2: compassion for Lindsay or it escapes you how heinous this 668 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 2: crime is and was. And I mean, I think that 669 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,460 Speaker 2: you are, I think you probably speak for, I don't 670 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:51,779 Speaker 2: know if it's the majority, is it? I don't know. 671 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: What are the stats right now? Who is? 672 00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a good question. 673 00:37:55,739 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: I don't really know. But I certainly know you're not alone. 674 00:37:59,540 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 2: I feel like that. Yeah. 675 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 3: Well, as always, I really, really love these crossover chats 676 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:08,820 Speaker 3: that we have. 677 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,010 Speaker 1: I really do. I love it. 678 00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: I love them. And I love you. And let's get 679 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:16,569 Speaker 2: some jurors on here. 680 00:38:16,989 --> 00:38:17,250 Speaker 3: Yeah. 681 00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:20,130 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. All right, guys. 682 00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:21,350 Speaker 1: Thanks, guys.