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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here.

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Speaker 3: I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger, and I'm joined today

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Speaker 3: by a very special guest, Michael Edison Hayden.

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Speaker 2: Hi, how's it going, Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 3: You may know Mike from his work as an investigative

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Speaker 3: journalist and an expert on far right extremism. He currently

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Speaker 3: co hosts Posting Through It, a weekly news podcast with

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Speaker 3: fellow veteran of the far right beat, Jared Holt. But

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Speaker 3: today we're talking about his new book, Strange People on

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Speaker 3: the Hill, How Extremism Tore apart a small American town.

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Speaker 3: It comes out April seventh, twenty twenty six, but you

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Speaker 3: can go ahead and pre order it now anywhere you

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Speaker 3: buy books, and make sure you ask for it at

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Speaker 3: your local library and your local independent bookstore.

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Speaker 2: Mike, thanks so much for coming on. I'm excited to

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Speaker 2: talk about this.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was worried that I wasn't gonna have time to

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Speaker 3: read the whole book. I mean, you talk about this

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Speaker 3: a lot in the book, right, the stresses of covering

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Speaker 3: this beat.

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Speaker 2: But I sat down to read it, and I read

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Speaker 2: it in one sitting. It is very com.

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Speaker 3: Wow, but it's not the book I thought it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, So when your publicists sent this to me,

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Speaker 3: I thought, oh, phenomenal. This is a book about Peter

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Speaker 3: Brimlow and the Racism Castle in West Virginia. I would

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Speaker 3: love to read a book about Peter Brimlow and the

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Speaker 3: Racism Castle.

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Speaker 2: And it's not really is it?

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Speaker 3: Like the Brimlows are the strange people on the hill

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Speaker 3: and they sort of stay on the hill, right. You

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Speaker 3: have a couple of encounters with them in the book,

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Speaker 3: but for the most part, it's a book about the town.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's about the town. And I'm glad that

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Speaker 4: you mentioned that. I really didn't want to write a

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Speaker 4: book that was about these villains that have been, you know,

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Speaker 4: populating our culture for the last ten plus years that

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Speaker 4: just seem to get unlimited traction on social media. There's

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong with talking about them, and there's nothing on

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Speaker 4: over certainly reporting on them, because I did my share

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Speaker 4: of that, you know, day in and day out when

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Speaker 4: I was with SBLC, for instance. I think that all

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Speaker 4: that is important, and there's different ways to do it

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Speaker 4: and do it effectively. But I think for a book.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to focus more on what these people and

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Speaker 4: this culture that is surrounding them is doing to everyday people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just I was so startled by what

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Speaker 3: it wasn't and then so engrossed by what it was.

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Speaker 3: But just quickly for the listeners, tell us what the

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Speaker 3: book is not about. Tell us who Peter Brimlow is

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Speaker 3: and v Dare and how they ended up with a castle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's not totally without him. I mean we

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Speaker 4: do get a bit of information about it. Yeah, we

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Speaker 4: meet him. Peter kind of came up as a financial reporter.

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Speaker 4: That's the short way of understanding, you know, how he

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Speaker 4: became America's most influential white nationalist. That's what SPOC labeled him,

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Speaker 4: which has covered obviously in the book. And he became

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Speaker 4: obsessed with immigration and in particular heart Seller, which brought

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Speaker 4: in tons of people from the developing the world. My

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Speaker 4: mother came to the country in sixty eight, for example.

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Speaker 4: That was like a you know, three years after a

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Speaker 4: heart Seller, and I wouldn't have been born if not.

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Speaker 4: She married a white guy and etcetera, etcetera. She came

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Speaker 4: from Egypt. So he became obsessed with this and kind

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Speaker 4: of in the way that I know, you know a

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Speaker 4: lot about these the way some of these minds work, Molly,

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Speaker 4: but in the way that some people get obsessed with

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Speaker 4: environmentalism and then they kind of expand that concern to

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Speaker 4: sort of say, well, there's too many people, right, there's

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Speaker 4: too many people. There's too many people. Well there's too

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Speaker 4: many brown people. That's what's destroying the environment. And then

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Speaker 4: they become you know, sort of white nationalists minded, or

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Speaker 4: anti grand immigrant minded. In Brimlo's case, I really think

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Speaker 4: it was like a financial thing, just like this is

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Speaker 4: putting all these different strains or whatever. And then it

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Speaker 4: became the financial became less of a concern and the

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Speaker 4: actual anti immigrant thing became bigger and bigger for him.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety five, he publishes Alien Nation, which is

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Speaker 4: a book that was actually praised to by people like

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Speaker 4: David Frum, you know, the very same guy who's high

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Speaker 4: hatting about Trump every day. It was considered socially acceptable,

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Speaker 4: and then over time, I think people realized that the

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Speaker 4: book had a very racist undercurrent, and it became beloved

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Speaker 4: by Nazis, white nationalists, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: I think if people like David Frum had been honest

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Speaker 3: with themselves. It was there all along. It was not

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Speaker 3: a subtle undercurrent.

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Speaker 4: Fun A side about David Frum, which is that I

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Speaker 4: did put it in the investigation into Stephen Miller's private emails.

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Speaker 4: Miller shared posts by from on more than one occasion

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Speaker 4: about like sort of anti Islam posts, which I think

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Speaker 4: is interesting.

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Speaker 3: And I think what these people disagree most about is

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Speaker 3: how loud you're supposed to say the quiet part.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I really do think that that's true. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, when Peter became more of a contentious figure,

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Speaker 4: he founded Videir, which is a nonprofit that lasted for

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Speaker 4: about quarter century. Recently died recently double that's covered in

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Speaker 4: the book. It dies over the course of the narrative,

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Speaker 4: and it was hugely influential, usually influential in changing the GOP.

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Speaker 4: And at the time when W. Bush was president, Brimlow

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Speaker 4: was railing against the GOP to change, to move in

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Speaker 4: this nativist direction, and eventually they listened to him.

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Speaker 3: And so the book sort of starts with you know,

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Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, right, and Peter and his wife, Lydia Brimlow

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Speaker 3: have purchased this gigantic castle in the small town of

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Speaker 3: Berkeley Springs, West Virginia. Right. I guess it's not shakes,

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Speaker 3: the medium sized castle. I don't know what the scale

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Speaker 3: for castles is. And so you become interested in their

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Speaker 3: purchase of this castle, and you go to this town

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Speaker 3: and you meet the people of Berkeley Springs, the people

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Speaker 3: who are indifferent to their presence, the people who are

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Speaker 3: organizing against their presence, and it's this really sort of

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Speaker 3: engrossing story of just small town drama, this interpersonal drama

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Speaker 3: of these like small business owners. And the castle is

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Speaker 3: always there in the background, right, the strange people are

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Speaker 3: up on the hill. But it's a story about this

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Speaker 3: small town struggle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I think we should just talk about the castle

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Speaker 4: real quick, because it's beautiful, and I think that's a

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Speaker 4: key thing. I hope when you read it you were like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I want to go to Berkeley Springs now, which is

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Speaker 4: I've had more than one person who read the book

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Speaker 4: tell me.

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Speaker 2: That I'm going to wait till they leave.

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Speaker 4: I've also heard that too, But you know, I know

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Speaker 4: the people who are there who despise the Brimlows and

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Speaker 4: their ideology, and I wanted to make sure that they

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Speaker 4: didn't feel let down by the book that they felt

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Speaker 4: like at least honored to a degree because I really

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Speaker 4: want them to be able to recover their business. Their

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Speaker 4: business have suffered since Brimlos took over. But just a

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Speaker 4: quick thing on this castle. It is absolutely beautiful. It

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Speaker 4: should be like a national park or something. It has

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Speaker 4: that feel. It was built in eighteen eighty by a

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Speaker 4: guy named Samuel Taylor Suit who made it for a

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Speaker 4: very very young young girl. I think she's like seventeen

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Speaker 4: or something like that.

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Speaker 2: It's fitting that Brimlow bought it for his much younger wife.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's true. Yeah, there's a lot of like spiritual

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Speaker 4: kind of woo woo stuff in in Berkeley Springs, and

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of you know, superstition, and a lot

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Speaker 4: of people really think that they are carrying on like

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Speaker 4: some sort of ghost like thing would carry over from

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Speaker 4: this relationship. But he made the castle for her, and

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Speaker 4: he died and she took over and went bankrupt, and

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Speaker 4: there was also allegedly a murder or something like that

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Speaker 4: that took place there. And then there's like this kind

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Speaker 4: of turnover from people one generation the next trying to

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Speaker 4: keep the castle going. It's always more expensive than it's Worth.

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Speaker 4: It's beautiful. It overlooks the entire town. The town is tiny, gorgeous,

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Speaker 4: looks like a great place to go on vacation. And

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Speaker 4: if you imagine like four Berkeley Springs, the Empire State Building,

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Speaker 4: Statue of Liberty Times Square rolled into one, that's what

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Speaker 4: the castle is. It's so tiny, and this is the

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Speaker 4: main landmark. This is the thing that everybody goes to

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Speaker 4: and they go hiking around there and all this stuff.

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Speaker 4: So this is a tourist town that attracts a lot

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Speaker 4: of LGBQ people from places like Washington, DC, Baltimore, a

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Speaker 4: lot of liberals, and all of a sudden you have

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Speaker 4: this again SPOC labeled white nationalist, anti immigrant, nativist, whatever

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Speaker 4: you want to call them. Couple buys this castle, right,

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Speaker 4: they decide to buy it. And the way they found

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Speaker 4: it is because Lydia Brimlow, who is thirty seven years

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Speaker 4: younger than Peter herself and started with him and when

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Speaker 4: she was twenty or something like that and he was

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Speaker 4: nearly sixty.

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Speaker 3: Right, she was an intern at the Heritage Foundation when

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Speaker 3: they met.

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Speaker 4: Intriguing, Yeah, heritage and it's interesting, weird in any case,

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Speaker 4: she finds it on Zillo and you remember this period

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Speaker 4: very well, I know, But in twenty eighteen or so,

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Speaker 4: it became very very difficult for these folks to stage

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Speaker 4: events right.

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Speaker 3: For you know, for unknown reasons, not because they kept

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Speaker 3: killing people.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to like derail this podcast by bringing

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Speaker 4: up Jason Kessler, but Jason Kessler, who we both know

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Speaker 4: very well, who is who secured the permit for the

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Speaker 4: Unite the Right event, who has been at different times

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Speaker 4: obsessed with both of us, I think were like in

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Speaker 4: his top in his top op all list, Jason you know,

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Speaker 4: was readily associated with Vidier because of his contributions to

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Speaker 4: the site. And people knew that, and that may put

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Speaker 4: even more pressure because theyre like, well, this Charlottesville guy, right,

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Speaker 4: they Unite the Right guy is Assai. So Vidio couldn't

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Speaker 4: stage any events. They were very worried about counter demonstrators.

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Speaker 4: I think that the counter demonstrators from that first MAGA

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Speaker 4: era really put the fear of God into some of

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Speaker 4: these people. They didn't, they were they were scared shitless

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Speaker 4: of anti racist, anti fascists, And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: you got a castle on Zillow, a million point four

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Speaker 4: and it's got stone walls all over it and hey,

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Speaker 4: we can hold our conferences here, and so that's how

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Speaker 4: they got it. They ended up getting it for that reason.

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Speaker 4: And what happens to the town afterwards, I think is

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Speaker 4: a minor tragedy in our culture that hasn't been paid

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Speaker 4: attention to enough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is this sort of microcosm of what happened

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Speaker 3: to America. Right, we don't all have a racism castle

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Speaker 3: in our town, but sort of the way this castle

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Speaker 3: bears down on this little town kind of mirrors the

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Speaker 3: way the influx of these extreme right wing ideas into

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Speaker 3: the GOP, into the administration that governs all of us

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Speaker 3: kind of is bearing down on us.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very smart. I think that's true. I think

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Speaker 4: that is one of the reasons that the story spoke

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Speaker 4: to me so much that I wanted to pursue it

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Speaker 4: for so long. Is it really felt like what everybody

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Speaker 4: was going through in the town. And readers will learn this.

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Speaker 4: Imagine business owners who are catering to many liberals there

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Speaker 4: and stuck in Morgan County, which is seventy five percent

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Speaker 4: Trump and ninety percent white, and they're panicking because they

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Speaker 4: need to keep people going. In the press goes a

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Speaker 4: long way in Berkeley Springs. It's it's a little place.

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Speaker 4: They don't know how to push back. Someone buys private property,

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Speaker 4: what can you do? But they start to organize and

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Speaker 4: try to figure out a way to urge Brimlow to

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Speaker 4: leave or to make it so difficult for him that

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Speaker 4: he leaves. And yes, it is absolutely a symbolism for

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Speaker 4: what everybody's going through. And there are people all over

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Speaker 4: the country in places Red states where you might find

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Speaker 4: people who you wouldn't expect kind of protesting against TESLA

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Speaker 4: or something like that, and it could be kind of corny,

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Speaker 4: these type of people who like corny online and easily ignored.

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Speaker 4: They're all over the country feeling that exact dread that

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Speaker 4: you're talking about, where something very like above them is

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Speaker 4: bearing down and pushing values that don't align with theirs.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's such a specific story about Berkeley Springs, but

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Speaker 3: at the same time, this could be almost any talent.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you followed the story of what happened to ed,

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Speaker 3: Oklahoma when the identity of Europa Guy got on their

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Speaker 3: city council and it was this very local, small town

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Speaker 3: struggle with these very specific local personalities butting heads. But

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Speaker 3: the story's playing out in small towns all over America

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Speaker 3: because everyone has, you know, if not a racism castle,

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Speaker 3: everyone has a local racist who's making life hard for everyone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they're sending right now. To use claviculars

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Speaker 4: phrase the Yeah, I mean think about North Idaho, for example.

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Speaker 4: I get a story for them for about from other Jones,

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Speaker 4: and you know, they they have a long history with

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Speaker 4: white supremacy and it's certainly dead red far right part

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Speaker 4: of the country. But you have like anti semites like

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Speaker 4: Dave Riley, it's right, Rebecca Hargraves and those people encroaching

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Speaker 4: on their everyday politics. Right, they're trying to change the politics.

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Speaker 4: They're trying to integrate themselves, you know, coming from outside

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Speaker 4: to take over, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same thing, is what happened in

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Speaker 2: West Virginia.

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Speaker 3: It's that these white supremacists are moving to these places

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Speaker 3: because they have a perception about what it will be

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Speaker 3: like when they get there, that everyone who's there will

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Speaker 3: agree with me because they're mostly white.

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Speaker 2: That's why Dave Riley moved Idaho.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. When Peter Brimlo first moved to the Castle, he

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Speaker 4: would repeatedly I think he would do it when people

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Speaker 4: reach out for comment and be like, you know, Morgan

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Speaker 4: County is seventy five percent voted for Trump, It's ninety

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Speaker 4: percent white. It's you who have the problem, not us.

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Speaker 4: And if you're looking for a more optimistic thing here,

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Speaker 4: I've gotten good reviews for the reviews that I've gotten,

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Speaker 4: but they keep using like disturbing, like this is so scary,

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Speaker 4: Like I think for us it's not as much because

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Speaker 4: we've been living in it for in a more intimate way,

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Speaker 4: right I.

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Speaker 3: Found it encouraging, yes, because you met these people who

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Speaker 3: were doing their best in this like bizarre, fucked up situation,

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Speaker 3: Like they didn't ask for a weird old British Nazi

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Speaker 3: to buy.

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Speaker 4: The cat exactly.

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Speaker 2: They're doing their best, and I think that's beautiful.

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Speaker 4: I think I think if you try to tune out

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Speaker 4: the reality that we're all going through right now and

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Speaker 4: just focus on, you know, your own private world, it

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Speaker 4: can be scary because you're letting in Peter Brimlow and

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Speaker 4: your chair head while you read the book, and you're

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Speaker 4: you're you're seeing neighbors kind of turning on one another,

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Speaker 4: and you're seeing me go through a mental health crisis

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Speaker 4: in the book. I mean, there's these are things that

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Speaker 4: for for a normy that maybe a little bit you know,

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Speaker 4: you may like the book, but you may be a

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Speaker 4: final little disturbing. But for people like us who have

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Speaker 4: kind of really been through stuff in this and seeing

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Speaker 4: it up close on a regular basis, Look, what I

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Speaker 4: like about the book is it's it's rare to like say,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to praise some white people here, but like

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Speaker 4: it's white people saying that they don't want to be

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Speaker 4: represented by these values, right. And I think that for me,

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Speaker 4: as somebody who comes on outsider, I like, look so

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Speaker 4: normal in New York. I'm just I'm just swarthy. But

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Speaker 4: they are there there, I look like Osama bin Laden

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Speaker 4: And I was gonna.

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Speaker 3: Say, environment, I don't think you pass as why as

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Speaker 3: you do in New York.

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Speaker 4: It's very different. Yeah. Yeah, And I say, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: when you see them, I mean, they they have a

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Speaker 4: choice to just kind of say like, actually, yeah, we're

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Speaker 4: you know, Peter Brimlow is standing up for my rights.

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Speaker 4: He's standing up for me, he's speaking for me there.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of people are not saying.

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Speaker 3: A guy who thinks a twenty eight hundred dollars political

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Speaker 3: donation is a small amount. That's not the average West

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Speaker 3: Virginian's idea of a small amount.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that is a good thing to pull out. Yes,

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Speaker 4: you know. The other thing is the people who ultimately

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Speaker 4: in the book tend to defend Brimlow or align with him,

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Speaker 4: because basically the town is becomes completely divided, maybe irrevocably,

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Speaker 4: so hopefully they'll come together one day. And it's still

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Speaker 4: I think the tensions are still quite bad. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: still happening. Even though Fidier dies at the end, the

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Speaker 4: Brimo still live there. The people who do are not like, yes,

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Speaker 4: we believe full throated in the Great Replacement conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 4: We think that the Great Replacement that like, you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking about more extreme things that Brimlow has said.

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Speaker 3: No, they're just people who see a nice white man

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Speaker 3: and his nice white wife and they were nice to me.

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Speaker 3: And I don't understand why you're making life so hard.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Vvidier has published apologia about mass shooters'

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Speaker 4: intentions basically right.

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Speaker 3: But so many of these these Brimlow defenders are just

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Speaker 3: they're not saying what he said is okay, or I

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Speaker 3: believe what he said. They're saying he was nice to me.

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Speaker 3: Why are you making such a big deal out of this?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I will clarify that. But they haven't said yes,

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Speaker 4: mass shootings are good. They have condemned that, but they've

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Speaker 4: also said that like this writing makes sense, right, and

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Speaker 4: they're like when during the Tops Supermarket shooting in Buffalo

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty two, that's something I highlight in the book,

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Speaker 4: Vder publishes something that's like, actually, like look what, look,

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Speaker 4: how the Great Replacement has changed Buffalo. That was their

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Speaker 4: response to ten black people getting shot.

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Speaker 3: Right. So Peter Briddole is very litigious, so we do

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Speaker 3: have to be very specific here and say Peter Briddlo

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Speaker 3: did not say it is good that Peyton Dendron shot

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Speaker 3: up that supermarket. What he did say is if the

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Speaker 3: Great Replacement weren't happening.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's look, and I think that

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Speaker 4: going back to the people in the town, I don't

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Speaker 4: think that they at every point be like that is good,

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Speaker 4: that what he's saying here is good the Great Replacements.

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Speaker 4: I'm fully on board with it. What they buy into

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Speaker 4: is this profound friend enemy distinction that now hovers over

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Speaker 4: our entire country, right where it's just sort of people

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Speaker 4: who are friends of Maga and Trump are on one side,

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Speaker 4: and then anybody who's at is my enemy.

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Speaker 3: And these more extreme talking points are sort of creeping

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Speaker 3: into that space and they're not stopping it, you know.

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Speaker 4: Of course it's two sided. Of course there's like that

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Speaker 4: that comes from the liberal left or wherever you want

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Speaker 4: to whatever you want to call it. But I think

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Speaker 4: in the case of the Brimlows, it's not the specifics.

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Speaker 4: I remember asking one guy in the book whose name

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Speaker 4: is Charlie Currier, and he owns a you know, a

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Speaker 4: sort of a craft's shop at the corner of Berkeley

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Speaker 4: Springs Park and it's right next to another main character

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Speaker 4: of the book, Trey Johansson, who is you know, kind

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Speaker 4: of almost the most important person. And I asked Charlie.

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Speaker 4: I was like, you know, so you met the Brimlows,

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Speaker 4: you hung out with them. What was that like for

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Speaker 4: Christmas and stuff like that? And I was like, well,

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Speaker 4: how do you feel about the great replacement stuff? How

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Speaker 4: do you feel about like the stuff he writes? And

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Speaker 4: what he said was he's a writer. He's a writer

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Speaker 4: like you. He's a journalist just like you. He's the

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Speaker 4: same as you there's no difference, and he was very defensive.

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Speaker 3: Yikes.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think that framing is very useful for

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Speaker 4: understanding why we can't seem to snap out of this

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Speaker 4: current condition that we're in. When you're inside that bubble,

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Speaker 4: that's the logic that works. It's like, this is the

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Speaker 4: guy on our side. You know, we're defending the guy

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Speaker 4: on our side. Right, that's a psychosis that kind of

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Speaker 4: overshadows the entire narrative.

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Speaker 3: Right, So this story in this town plays out against

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Speaker 3: the backdrop of the wider world. Right, So you know,

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Speaker 3: your first visit to Berkeley Springs was right as COVID

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Speaker 3: is starting, Right, it's the last time you left your

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Speaker 3: New York apartment before lockdown.

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Speaker 2: You're in Berkeley Springs.

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Speaker 3: And as the story progresses, we see the twenty twenty uprising,

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Speaker 3: and there's like a little blm rally in this tiny town.

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Speaker 3: And then there's j six, and there's October seventh, there's

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty four presidential campaign and these big events

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Speaker 3: in the world, and then there's these smaller events in

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Speaker 3: the town, but interwoven with this sort of personal memoir,

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Speaker 3: right that the world is in turmoil and so is

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Speaker 3: your life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and all these threads sort of weave together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true regarding the events in the world and

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Speaker 4: in the town. I'm glad that you brought that up.

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Speaker 4: One thing I wanted to do with the book that

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Speaker 4: I don't see done and enough, is just to understand that,

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Speaker 4: like everything that we see, all these like viral trends

397
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Speaker 4: and all this stuff filters down into everyday life. And

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Speaker 4: I think when news is breaking or trends are happening,

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Speaker 4: we only look at the news and the trends like that,

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Speaker 4: and we rarely look at the impacts on our neighborhood.

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Speaker 4: Whereas you know, if you do a movie that's said

402
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Speaker 4: in the eighties, you will see like the event a

403
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Speaker 4: little bit more about like at the kitchen table, what

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Speaker 4: the family is going through. As something happens nationally, right

405
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Speaker 4: or so and so's it's almost like we need time

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Speaker 4: to process. But this has a very clear time period,

407
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Speaker 4: which is the period right before COVID to the twenty

408
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Speaker 4: twenty four election, And it's enough in the past now

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Speaker 4: that I think we can look at how these things

410
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Speaker 4: affected regular people in this in this town. Because every

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Speaker 4: time you're seeing viral videos about black lives matter. That's

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Speaker 4: impacting the way people act there. So you may have

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Speaker 4: like five white people go stand on a street corner

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Speaker 4: there with some signs after George Floyd's death, and that's

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Speaker 4: like a huge deal in that town because it's like

416
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Speaker 4: people are shocked by it or they want to they

417
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Speaker 4: want to they want to harass those people after that.

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Speaker 4: So that was one factor. And as yeah, and as

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Speaker 4: for as for myself, it also overlaps like probably the

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Speaker 4: darkest time in my life. And that's not totally unrelated

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Speaker 4: to Berkeley Springs in the sense that, like, you know,

422
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Speaker 4: stuff at SPLC was like really really bad at the

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Speaker 4: beginning of the book. Then they're not there in the

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Speaker 4: second half, and my mental health was was just not

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Speaker 4: in a great place. I had spent, as you know,

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Speaker 4: a lot of time with these guys, and I know

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Speaker 4: you personally have dealt with a lot of threats and really,

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Speaker 4: I mean as a woman, and I mean you're dealing

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Speaker 4: with I imagine it's even scarier because.

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Speaker 2: It's grosser anyway, is yeah, that's.

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Speaker 4: Grosser for sure, And I mean you're dealing with I mean,

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Speaker 4: I can't even imagine the mentality of some of the

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Speaker 4: guys who are messaging you and what their their private

434
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 4: lives are like. So yeah, so yeah, I mean I

435
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 4: had gone through it for a while on my end.

436
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 4: One example that is in twenty twenty one, I took

437
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 4: my son to the batting cage and afterwards we went

438
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 4: to seven to eleven and I got a call from

439
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,239
Speaker 4: a number in North Carolina and then it was an

440
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 4: FBI agent and he's like, hey, I just want to

441
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 4: you know, as a courtesy, you want to let you

442
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 4: know that we have somebody who's like talking about assassinating you,

443
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 4: and you know, do you have any questions like that?

444
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

445
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 4: I was like I do, but like my eight year

446
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 4: old is like slurping on a you know, a cherry

447
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 4: slurpee in the back seat.

448
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: That duty to warn thing is kind of a double

449
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 3: edged sword, right, because they do have this legal obligation

450
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 3: to inform you that there's a credible threat on your life,

451
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 3: but like they're not going to give you enough information

452
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 3: to make you feel empowered by knowing this information.

453
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: So it's like maybe I would.

454
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: Rather just not know.

455
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

456
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 3: Oh, it was like literally, if there's something I can

457
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 3: do to mitigate this, can.

458
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 2: I just not know?

459
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 4: Yeah? It was horrible. It was hard. That is I

460
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 4: think one of the things that the normy person would

461
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 4: find deeply disturbing in the book. But like, yeah, I

462
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 4: was dealing with that stuff all the time. I would

463
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 4: get like, you know, I'd get people sending me photos

464
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 4: of Alan Berg's shooting in the driveway. I don't know

465
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 4: if you're familiar with that, but like he was the

466
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 4: talk radio host who was killed by the members of the.

467
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: Order, killed by David Lane.

468
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I would get that all the time. I

469
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 4: must spent like months of just getting that from like

470
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 4: random numbers and all this stuff.

471
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: Sometimes like a group of guys will get very into

472
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 3: a particular image, and I can imagine the kind of

473
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: guy that is very into the image of Alan Berg's corpse.

474
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 2: And it's not a nice guy.

475
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's taboo. It has like a pornographic

476
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 4: quality to it.

477
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: But it harkens to a very specific era of the movement.

478
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: Like I can imagine there's a particular man who gravitates

479
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 3: to that specifically.

480
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean, like I remember getting threatened by Bowers,

481
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 4: the guy who shot up like because I was on

482
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 4: GAB all the time, as you know, to a fault,

483
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: I think, but like you know, I mean, it got

484
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 4: got a lot of stories out of it and sources.

485
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 4: But yeah, because I was always dealing with those guys,

486
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 4: and I was always posting on air and you know,

487
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 4: trying to stir things up and see what it could

488
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 4: shake loose for a story. And yeah, Bowers was just

489
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 4: some kind of idle thing. And so when the Tree

490
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 4: of Life shooting happened, when he went out and said,

491
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 4: you know, screw your optics, I'm going in right right, yeah,

492
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 4: and I was like, I know this guy, that one dingo. Hell,

493
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 4: So this was this was very traumatic for me. I've

494
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 4: been holding pretty firm on this. I had a lot

495
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 4: of manic tendencies in the sense of like I could

496
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 4: just work constantly, and you just work around the clock,

497
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 4: work late at night, constantly doing investigative reporting. And I

498
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 4: was on a mission because I was so angry about

499
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 4: what had happened, you know, Unite the right. That's what

500
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 4: that really triggered me. I had before then, I had

501
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 4: been really open to pursuing a beat as a crime

502
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 4: reporter or on climate change. These were the kind of

503
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 4: things that were like I had I had written features

504
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 4: of previously, but it was it was after you night

505
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 4: the right I got folks, and I really was like,

506
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: I'm going to put all all my abilities into trying

507
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 4: to create trouble for these guys, and yeah I did.

508
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 4: And then when they pushed back, I guess I I

509
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 4: wasn't mentally prepared for how scary it could be. And

510
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: it was lots of stuff. Then I went through a

511
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 4: separation with my wife, which is fine, we're great friends,

512
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 4: you know, but that was like another factor. And then

513
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 4: also the SPLC thing, which we can talk about. But

514
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 4: the main thing is that I reached a breaking point.

515
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 4: I was I was happened to be in Berkeley Springs

516
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 4: with some of the sources from the book when I

517
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 4: had to go home and go to a psych ward

518
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 4: and I went for three weeks, and like I diagnosed

519
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 4: with bipolar there, which was a very useful diagnosis.

520
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 3: It makes it makes a big difference because I mean,

521
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: especially it's bipolar if you're just taking an I depressance,

522
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: like you're gonna be up shit creek.

523
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well the ANSWER's press is really screwed up

524
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 4: my stomach and also made me like even more manic

525
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 4: and stuff like that.

526
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: But the book is is a very frank, very very honest,

527
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 3: very personal, and maybe this is why people found the

528
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 3: book to be, you know, disturbing, because it is a

529
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 3: very frank discussion of what it means to be the

530
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: person who is for so many years in the thick

531
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 3: of it, yeah, you know, not doing sort of objective

532
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 3: detached reporting, but getting in there and mixing it up

533
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: with these guys like really, you know, skin in the game,

534
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 3: committed to the cause, doing investigative journalism in these spaces,

535
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 3: and I mean, I think we both are guilty of this.

536
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 3: Over the years on this beat, there is this tendency

537
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 3: to sort of you know, exchange war stories like oh,

538
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 3: you know, I got this terrible threat, I got this

539
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 3: terrible threat. You laugh it off, and it's like, you know,

540
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: it's it's this sort of fact of life that you

541
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: brush off, and you know, everyone says, oh, you're so brave,

542
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: I could never do that, and you say, it's not

543
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 3: a big deal.

544
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 2: I deal with it all the time.

545
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, they say that for sure.

546
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: But then you go home and it is a big

547
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 3: deal and people are not, Yeah, is honest about that

548
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 3: as they could be. I mean, in part because admitting

549
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 3: that it hurts you makes them double down. If they

550
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: know they got you, they're going to keep digging in

551
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: that spot. But like, we don't talk enough about the

552
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 3: fact that this destroys us. Yeah, for sure, it's a

553
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 3: very honest look at what happens when you bought him

554
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 3: out on that.

555
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: And it's so much worse than just threats. I mean,

556
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 4: you're constantly concerned that somebody is going to use law

557
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 4: fair against you and try to.

558
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 2: Hurt your family and you have children.

559
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, you know, And I am extremely anal

560
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 4: about legal stuff, Like I'm just like hyper, like I

561
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 4: don't you know, I don't play games I like and

562
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 4: so that's out just an example. It's like we published

563
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 4: when I was with the SBOC, we published the identity

564
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 4: of Matt Gebert, who is the state department official. I

565
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 4: remember that guy.

566
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: I was actually going to bring him up.

567
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: I was going to bring up my gaber in terms

568
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: of the number of guys who've moved to West Virginia

569
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: because they think it's only white.

570
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll get there in a second. But I just

571
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 4: say it, like before I published that story, even though

572
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 4: I'd been through a million lawyers and like every I mean,

573
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 4: we just went through everything and stuff like that. I

574
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 4: bought a pack of cigarettes, which I never do, you know,

575
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 4: I don't want to get into my stomach thing too deeply.

576
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 4: But it was not working. It was not working at

577
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 4: all that day. It was August seventh, twenty nineteen, and

578
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 4: I was like, literally I was I was clammy. I

579
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 4: was sweating. I had never seen his face. He kept

580
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 4: all of his pictures offline. But I had the goods.

581
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 4: I knew I had everything. But yet at the same

582
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 4: this is one doubt. It's like, what if it's not

583
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: him because I don't have the face match forget threats,

584
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 4: that level of stress of just you know, it's just

585
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 4: like I checked everything, right. I Like you think, think

586
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 4: about the you're trying to leave the house for a

587
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 4: long trip or something like that, and it's like, you

588
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 4: know that thought, Oh yeah, like should I leave the

589
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 4: gas stove on when I was you know, when I

590
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 4: was boiling something for my kids or whatever. Like that's

591
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: the way it, right. It's like a sort of you

592
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,239
Speaker 4: like you memorize the entire investigative feature and you're like

593
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 4: going through it and there's like, oh, oh, you know,

594
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 4: is that that right? Did I check that? And I'm like, yes,

595
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: I did.

596
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, I know that.

597
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: I know that feeling exacty drives my husband crazy when

598
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: I say things like I'd rather get shot than be

599
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: wrong in public.

600
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's true. It's it's true, Like I don't

601
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 4: I don't want to. Yeah, you don't want to be wrong.

602
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 4: And also you don't want to give these people a

603
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 4: chance for anything. And you mentioned Brimlow is very litigious.

604
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 5: Not usually very successfully. No, no, but that doesn't matter, No,

605
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 5: it doesn't matter. Yeah, but it's stressful to report on

606
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 5: him because of that, because he just he will use

607
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 5: it as a tactic and stuff like that. And I

608
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 5: gave I also gave the brimlos I should point out many,

609
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 5: many opportunities to talk to me and more detail about everything,

610
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 5: and they didn't want to.

611
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: But you do speak to him several times in the book.

612
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do, I do much to his displeasure. Well,

613
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 4: I was just to say, like, yeah, I mean all

614
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 4: that really led up to me going to the psych

615
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 4: word and that and the the SBOC thing, which is

616
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 4: bas my relationship with SBOC is like I was probably

617
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: the most well known person there apology because I've had

618
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 4: a social media presence and I was doing a lot

619
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 4: of spokesperson work, So I was like on TV a

620
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 4: bunch and stuff like that.

621
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: So whenever someone's mad at the organization, they're going to

622
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 3: take it out on you.

623
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. And really, for a good part of the early

624
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 4: years there after Heidi left, we didn't even have a

625
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 4: director of the intelligence project, so you know, I would

626
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 4: just get thrown into a lot of TV radio stuff

627
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 4: like that. And you know, they treated me great. I

628
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 4: mean they had got my pay raise multiple times and

629
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 4: promoted and stuff like that. And I kept breaking investigative stories.

630
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 4: And then when we started to have problems where we were,

631
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: they started to limit our ability to publish stories. They

632
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 4: really became very risk averse.

633
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: Which is so contrary to my image of what this

634
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: institution is for. Yeah, both like functionally and morally.

635
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 4: Yeh. Yeah.

636
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 3: As a senior investigative reporter at the Southern Poverty Los Center,

637
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: you didn't have mental health coverage. You couldn't a real therapist. Yeah,

638
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: that's horrific. That's a human rights abuse to make you

639
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: look at gabble. They had not get you a therapists.

640
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: They were giving us like the app stuff, which is

641
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: not going to cut it.

642
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: No, but you need like a five hundred dollars an hour. Yeah,

643
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: New York analyst.

644
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 4: Was a psychiatrist. You know, it's okay, like you know, somebody.

645
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 2: Good, but they should be covering that.

646
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, they were not. And there's just a whole

647
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 4: bunch of stuff. There were a bunch of safety issues,

648
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 4: no doubt, Anna case, my dear colleagues, still my colleague,

649
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 4: even though I'm not there anymore. You know, she went

650
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: to go Carver, Ameron and Tennessee and like a bunch

651
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 4: of proud boys like basically chased her down right. There

652
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 4: was no security plan. There was a woman named Susan

653
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 4: Cork was the intelligence project director at that time, and

654
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 4: she was just you know, how to lunch. You just

655
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 4: didn't do anything. As far as I could tell.

656
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: Things like what happened to Hannah, Like stuff like that

657
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: happens to me.

658
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: I expected. I'm out there by myself.

659
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: I have no plan. It's just me, I have no plan.

660
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: It was so startling to me to hear that, like

661
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: Hannah is out there operating without a net too.

662
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: There was no plan for her safety.

663
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was nothing. And so one of the first

664
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 4: things I did was I helped shepherd a grievance about this,

665
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 4: and it was effective because I think that got Cork

666
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 4: put on like a performance improvement plan. And then after

667
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 4: that everything changed at work. I went from betting the

668
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 4: favored person to being repeatedly at target of what did

669
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 4: you do? Why did you do this? Like it was

670
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 4: really I mean to add on the already stressful situation

671
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 4: that I was in. It was just like your tone

672
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 4: in a meeting. And then there was the thing about

673
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 4: that was there was like a verbal warning or something

674
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: that was they actually bothered to write out, which was

675
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 4: quite stupid. If you're doing a verbal warning, you shouldn't

676
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 4: put it in print. And sure enough we found in

677
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 4: there that, like all of the dialogue that was in there,

678
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 4: was completely fabricated and made up.

679
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: And so for the listener.

680
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: So discussed in the book a little bit is the

681
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 3: fact that the Southern Poverty Lossoner was engaging in unionvesting. Yes,

682
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: that's right, so you know you were dealing with retaliation

683
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 3: for union activity in the workplace.

684
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 4: Retaliation for union activity. It was really bad. It happened

685
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 4: a second time after that, when I was covering the

686
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 4: trial Doug Mackie character we can save for another day,

687
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 4: for another day, and it was really bad and the

688
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: stress was really getting to me, and I had a

689
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 4: panic attack which I've never had before, while I was

690
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 4: in the shower, and I told them about that, and

691
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 4: Susan Cork and the person above her, his name is

692
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 4: An Beeson. I told him about that, and then they

693
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 4: responded by turning around and disciplining me again, almost like

694
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: to say, like, we've got them on the ropes now,

695
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 4: let's really like make them quit.

696
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: Say eighty a violation.

697
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, And every time we do this, we'd summon the

698
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: union and we'd make it as hairy for them as

699
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 4: possible to do what they're doing. But there's limits to

700
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 4: what you can do. Really, when they want to try

701
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: to do these sort of things, they pushed it as

702
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: far as they wanted to go, which is after the

703
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 4: summer of twenty twenty three, there was a Hamas attack

704
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 4: on Israel, and you know, I have Arabs in my family,

705
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 4: I have my mother's side, including Palestinians. You know, I

706
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 4: was distraught about this whole situation. Was it was adding

707
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 4: another thing on top of it, and watching the retaliation,

708
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 4: which became a genocide very quickly, did not improve my mood. Obviously,

709
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 4: It was very stressful to see that stuff, and Hannah

710
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 4: invited me to sign a thing about you know, it

711
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 4: was just sort of like asking writers to sign on

712
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 4: Israel's and apartheid state, you know, calling for a ceasefire.

713
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: Writers for the seasfire.

714
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember, and.

715
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: Free Beacon familiar with that wonderful politician.

716
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 3: It still comes up in the first few pages of

717
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 3: your Google results.

718
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:48,959
Speaker 4: Thank you for nothing.

719
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, but this the book should push it back.

720
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 4: The book Free Beacon like came out with this thing

721
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 4: and it was like SBLC spokesperson you know, blames Israel

722
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 4: for Hermas violence or something like that.

723
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 3: And just the audacity to accuse you of anti Semitism

724
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: for a signing this letter, you know, supporting a ceasefire.

725
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 3: I've read that letter. It's it's it's not an anti

726
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: Semitic letter. It is calling it what it is and

727
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: just asking for a ceasefire. Right, And you have spent

728
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: a decade writing about anti Semitic violence.

729
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 4: Well, there's there's tons of there's there's tons of anti

730
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 4: Zionist Jews on there. I mean, there's probably more than

731
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 4: anything else. But you know, when this, when this came out,

732
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 4: I was really pissed. Obviously it had a racist undertone.

733
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 4: I mean, Hannah was mentioned, but it was mostly about me.

734
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 4: And then there instead of a picture of me they

735
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 4: used they used like one of those pictures of Moss

736
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 4: looking like Cobra from CI Joe and with like a

737
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 4: rocket launcher and.

738
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 3: Write implying that you, as as a man of Arab descent,

739
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: are an anti Semitic terrorist. Yeah, basically and good faith stuff.

740
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 4: Adding to I would say, this is also complex because

741
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 4: you know, my family basically fled because of threats from

742
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 4: Islamic terrorism, right, so this is even more like, you know,

743
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 4: to align me with that necessarily is not my not ideal,

744
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 4: even though I'm in like, you know, I'm sure I

745
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 4: have a very more more nuanced idea of what HOMAS

746
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 4: is than that author. The point is it's just, I mean,

747
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 4: it's just basically to do that and then rather than

748
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: SBOC like cares so much about social justice and racism.

749
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: Rather than seize the opportunity to differentiate themselves from the

750
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: psychosis that the ADL has descended into. As you know,

751
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 3: because those two organizations sort of exist in the same space,

752
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: they're often used in the same sentence, and the ADL

753
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: has really lost a lot of credibility in the last

754
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 3: few years.

755
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 4: I don't think they have any credibility because of those.

756
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 3: So instead of differentiating themselves from that, they chose to

757
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 3: discipline you.

758
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, they did. And it was that was when I,

759
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 4: like I said, mental health was like all the factors

760
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 4: that we've just discussed mentioned And then I was happened

761
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 4: to be in Berkeley Springs when I reached a point

762
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: where I was like, you know, I was, I was

763
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 4: suicidal and trigger warning for people. I apologize, but that's

764
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 4: the truth, and came back and I had to spend

765
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 4: this sort of Christmas break period there where I lost

766
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: you know, they ultimately terminated me. It was a Title

767
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 4: seven violation in terms of discrimination. Well we'll get into

768
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 4: what happened effort. And then when people found out what happened,

769
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 4: the union started to write things, you know, to management.

770
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 4: There was all this internal dialogue happening while I was

771
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 4: in a psych word with like no access to anything,

772
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 4: and almost everybody in my line of managers was pushed

773
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 4: out and given buyouts allegedly Quirk this woman and Beeson

774
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 4: and now the CEO.

775
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,479
Speaker 2: Is they exposed themselves to some serious liability there.

776
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, they got off easy in many ways. Yeah, they

777
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 4: disposed of me, but I threatened suit with a lawyer,

778
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: wonderful lawyer who she was great Jewish woman from New

779
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: York and was as tough as nails, and yeah, I

780
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: mean I got a good settlement out of it, which is,

781
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 4: you know, I would have preferred just to be able

782
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 4: to just continue doing my job.

783
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: Though it's heartbreaking to remember that.

784
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 3: You know, even these progressive nonprofits that are fighting for

785
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: what we believe, they're using you up and spitting you

786
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: out to Yeah, oh sure, they're doing union busting. They're

787
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 3: firing you for having a mental health crisis. They're opposed

788
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: to you exercising your free speech off the clock, the

789
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 3: kinds of things you just you don't want to see

790
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 3: from an organization like the SPLC.

791
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, they had to retract my termination and assign into

792
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 4: a layoff. And then you know, I had to retract

793
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 4: labor claims I had made, which would have gone nowhere

794
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 4: as soon as the Trump administration took over. Anyway, that's heartbreaking,

795
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 4: which I saw coming in twenty twenty four to a degree.

796
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 4: So yeah, like that happened. And then bringing it back

797
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 4: to Berkeley Springs. I was told not to go anywhere,

798
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 4: but I needed to keep working on the book. So

799
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 4: it was like a week after I got out of

800
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 4: the hospital, I came back down there, and then the

801
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 4: folks who I had been working with since twenty twenty

802
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: when the Brimlas first arrived, they kind of took me

803
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 4: in and nurse me back to health. So that's why

804
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 4: it's I feel like unified in the narrative, and we're

805
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: able to explore what happened to me psychologically and what

806
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 4: happens is and them psychologically as this other stuff is happening. See.

807
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: I guess I understand why some of the reviewers call

808
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 3: it disturbing. But that sort of full circle, that sort

809
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 3: of personal closure. You know, obviously things weren't ideal, right,

810
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: you lost your job, but I don't know, things came

811
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: full circle and the people that you went there to

812
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: write about took care of you, and you, I don't know,

813
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 3: you all.

814
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 2: Continue along your way as the world falls apart.

815
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 4: I don't think that they come all cross as like

816
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 4: perfect either. I mean, like that's what I'm really hopeful for.

817
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: No, I mean they're all complicated people.

818
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 4: You know, I wanted to avoid like the sort of

819
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: wishy washy utopian like I'm an ally you know, and

820
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, actually, the people who are allies have

821
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 4: all kinds of issue that marital problems. Maybe some of

822
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 4: them are like behave badly in one thing or whatever.

823
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 4: We're all people trying to live. It's really a question

824
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 4: of what this particular ideology that has been foisted upon

825
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 4: us very rapidly by the likes of Steve Bannon and

826
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 4: Brimlow and others right it was a it was a

827
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 4: collective push to take the existing right wing monstar and

828
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 4: set it in this direction. What this is doing to us.

829
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: It's a very intimate look at what that is like

830
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 3: for individual people. You know, we were all experiencing having

831
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 3: right wing violence foisted upon us from above, but this

832
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: is I don't know. There were these like small moments

833
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: of like physical intimacy, like when you're you're at the

834
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 3: castle for the party and you know, you and Peter

835
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 3: Brimlow are exchanging like this lighthearted moment and you reach

836
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: out and you put your hand on his shoulder. Instinctively,

837
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 3: when you're sharing laughter with someone, you put out, you

838
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: put your hand on his shoulder, and like you know

839
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: recoiled immediately and didn't know why you had done that

840
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 3: with this like tiny moment of physical intimacy that you

841
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: know this was a person, sure, or the transgender mushroom

842
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 3: farmer Lisa Marie who sought out Lydia Brimlow at church

843
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 3: and shook her hand during the rite of peace, like

844
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 3: I would have loved to have seen that.

845
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 4: She's so cool by the way, you should have her on.

846
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 3: She's awesome, she sounds amazing.

847
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: I would love to meet Lisa Marie.

848
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you about her in a second. But yeah,

849
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I mean Brimlo is behaving in a

850
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 4: very I mean he has like an infuncular kind of

851
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 4: vibe like in person when he's not angry with you.

852
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 4: And I'm sure that for people who know him in

853
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 4: a friendly way in the movement that he's he's fun.

854
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 3: You know, he likes to drink room temperature Vanka.

855
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 4: He is always talking like this. He sounds like he's

856
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 4: always had her for your drinks. Probably, Yes, he has

857
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 4: that British way of just some kind of dry remark

858
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 4: about things going to pot like you know, I'm sure

859
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 4: it's fun for people who know him, and you know,

860
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 4: you're in that space and any kind of party thing

861
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 4: or whatever you can let go for a second. And

862
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 4: for a second I felt not that, like I felt like, oh,

863
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 4: this is my friend, or it is more than I'm.

864
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: Just talking exactly.

865
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 3: You know, people really bristle it that you know you're

866
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 3: humanizing him. Well, yeah, because he's human. Humanizing doesn't mean

867
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 3: excusing or you know, coming to appreciate it in any way.

868
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: It just means like he's human. So for most of

869
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: the book, the strange people on the.

870
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 3: Hill are removed on the hill, but when you encounter them,

871
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: there is this very human intimacy to these encounters.

872
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 4: And not only that, everybody has a rough go in

873
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 4: this book, including that.

874
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: Getting raked over the coals by Letitia James well over the.

875
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 4: Course of this that there if you follow their their

876
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 4: arc and their arcs throughout the book, but one particular arc,

877
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 4: it starts with them really thinking they've got it, like

878
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 4: this is like this is like high point of Vider's existence.

879
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 4: They have a castle, they have a home base that

880
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 4: they can use in perpetuity. After Brimla leaves, the movement

881
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 4: can flourish and grow. This is like this is it.

882
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 4: They got a Castle.

883
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: I mean, it would be the perfect place for white

884
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: nationalists meet up. They haven't really used it that way

885
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: that much, like every now and again, but like.

886
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 4: This is the best situation they've ever had, Like they're great,

887
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 4: and they've also just coming off of getting a whole

888
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 4: bunch of dark money donations from two people we don't

889
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: know who they are, but it's like, you know, four

890
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 4: point five mil in like one year through donors Trust,

891
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 4: and they're writing really high. And then by the end

892
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: from the Letitia James investigation, it had not turned into

893
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 4: a lawsuit yet by that point, under the pressure of

894
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 4: that and just under the pressure of just everybody around them,

895
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 4: you know, not wanting them to be there, they decided

896
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 4: to dial down VideA altogether. And it still exists in

897
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 4: the sense of, like the Twitter accounts still exists, and

898
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 4: Brimlo is still writing on substack. Some of it is

899
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 4: a legal thing to try to, you know, get them

900
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: out of the way of Letitia j Ames. But you know,

901
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 4: they're really broken down. I mean, the videos that they

902
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 4: published about their closing, I mean, it's just a laundry

903
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 4: list of things that add up to a defeat. I

904
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 4: don't think they would disagree with that that they felt

905
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: defeated by the end, and the people who were in

906
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 4: the town who are so nice and sweet and wonderful

907
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 4: and all this, they're laughing as you would, right as

908
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 4: everybody talked about like when Trump dies, and everybody's like, oh,

909
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to do this when Trump dies and all

910
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 4: that stuff. Right, it's just liberation from that thing. But

911
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 4: ultimately it's a really like if you just look at

912
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 4: the Brimlows, it is, you know, it is a brutal

913
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 4: fall by the end of the book.

914
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean ten years ago they were poised to

915
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 3: be on top of the world and their ideas remain ascendant,

916
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 3: but he himself has really fallen. Now he just has

917
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: the flooded basement of his little racism castle.

918
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 4: Well, there's no solidarity on their side. I just oh god,

919
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 4: that's what I saying.

920
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: Oh, that's one thing they will never happen.

921
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 4: I Mean, you get somebody who annoys me, who is

922
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 4: a sort of anti fascion anti racists, who like annoys

923
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 4: the shit out of me, but they they wind up like,

924
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 4: you know, being targeted by somebody. I'm like, okay, well.

925
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: You're not going to gloat about their downfhones.

926
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:10,959
Speaker 4: But not only that, but it's like now it's time

927
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 4: to like, you know, support them. You know, that's the

928
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 4: way I feel.

929
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: And they just don't do that. They don't do that

930
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 3: for each other. They hate each other.

931
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: They're always malignant narcissists because it's always about cloying to

932
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 4: the top, right, it's always trying to get power over

933
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 4: other people.

934
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody wants to be the crab at the

935
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: top of the bucket, but you're still crabbing a goddamn bucket.

936
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 4: There's two strains of maga. I know, mega is a

937
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 4: very broad term, and like one of them is really

938
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: this kind of grift focused kind of cryptoweb three aligned aspect.

939
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 4: We're just AI and this, and like a small number

940
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 4: of people, like fifteen percent will go hoard a bunch

941
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 4: of like fake coins or whatever things polymarket, like odds

942
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 4: or whatever. They're all hoarding information to kind of beat

943
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 4: people in polymarket. And then the suckers they you know whatever,

944
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 4: the o the rest of it, the bigger percentage of

945
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 4: seventy five percent followers, they're taking their money and that's baga.

946
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 4: That's a big part of bag. And then the other

947
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 4: part is less concerned with money, although money is a

948
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 4: part of it. Is just ascending and pushing down from

949
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 4: a power space, right, Like you just like to be

950
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 4: in a place where they can have power over other people,

951
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 4: and usually other people being designated by not looking like them,

952
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 4: or not behaving like them, or not having the same

953
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 4: kind of boyfriend's girlfriends whatever than them.

954
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 3: It's like, I mean, I couldn't be happier that Peter

955
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 3: Brimlow is going to end his career on the bottom

956
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 3: of the heap he was trying to climb.

957
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, yeah, and they'll be the I guarantee

958
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 4: you there'll be more of an effort from us to

959
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 4: define his legacy than from them, because they don't care.

960
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 4: They don't care.

961
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: No, they will, they'll use you up and forget you.

962
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, they don't care. We will. We will spend more

963
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 4: time on him than so we I mean, we're talking

964
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 4: about him right now. We have I have a host

965
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 4: a podcast where we talk about these guys all the

966
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 4: time time, right, so it's a girl. He's bringing up

967
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 4: new guys. I think we're doing We're doing a full

968
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 4: BIOEP on Stephen Miller soon. You know, they don't do that.

969
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 4: They don't care. They're not like, here's the reason Stephen's great.

970
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 3: Like no, I mean Jason Kesslo disappeared from the internet

971
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 3: a year ago and they don't talk about him anymore. Oh,

972
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 3: It's it's like he never existed.

973
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, but you know what, I hope he

974
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 4: stays off that, you know what I mean. I try

975
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 4: to find some forgiveness in my heart. You know, maybe

976
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 4: it's the Catholic upbringing, whatever, but I try to find

977
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: some even though he literally who knows what he did

978
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 4: that was related to the threats I received because he

979
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 4: wrote stuff about me.

980
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: I mean I think that that series he put on

981
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 3: vdare that included information about you and your family certainly

982
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: didn't help.

983
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 4: Yeah for sure. But you know, if he stays offline

984
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 4: and he stays like this, like, I hope that he's

985
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 4: getting some help.

986
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 2: That's all anyone ever asked.

987
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: I mean, that's all I was ever asking for from

988
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: these guys. I'm not even holding out hope that you

989
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 3: change your heart.

990
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: I just want you to stop doing.

991
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 3: Stuff about it, yeah, I mean, just stop trying to

992
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 3: make everything worse.

993
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, really, Like I mean, but if he's out

994
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 4: there and he's like I'm just gonna, like, you know,

995
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 4: keep it quiet. And I have a hard time imagining

996
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 4: that guy like finding any kind of change of heart.

997
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 4: But it would be great if he just stayed, just

998
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 4: stayed at everything and just lived his life. And you know, privately,

999
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 4: I would I would feel some tiny crumb of respect for.

1000
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 3: That God willing, God willing, and maybe, uh maybe Peter

1001
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 3: Rimo will log off forever eventually too.

1002
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 4: Well, I mean based upon the age that that's yeah.

1003
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 2: Well he's gonna he's gonna do a permanent log.

1004
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 4: Off eventually, permanent log off eventually. I've heard all kinds

1005
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 4: of gossip about from people in Berkeley Springs that Lydia

1006
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 4: really doesn't want to be associated with the white nationalist

1007
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 4: movement and really doesn't want us to be associated with

1008
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 4: the movement in general, if you want to give it

1009
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 4: another term that they might use, like dissit and write

1010
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 4: or whatever. She's I think I don't know this for

1011
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 4: a fact that she would never tell me directly. Think

1012
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 4: about Lydia Bremlo. You're twenty years old. This very rich

1013
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 4: white husband comes by his old for you. He's like

1014
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 4: fifty seven, and he's recently lost his wife, Bremolo lost

1015
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 4: his first wife to cancer, and you're in the kind

1016
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 4: of heritage seeing you're kind of conservative yourself, and.

1017
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 3: This guy conservative.

1018
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 4: This is this is happening around a time in which

1019
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 4: alienation is still kind of acceptable.

1020
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 2: I mean, at least in the heritage front set.

1021
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, on the right it was kind of acceptable.

1022
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 4: But even you know, even if it's acceptable, the worst

1023
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 4: you could say about it. He's kind of a bad boy,

1024
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 4: like a bad you know, he's got right So it's

1025
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 4: sort of like, oh, edgy, he's like an edgy bad boy,

1026
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 4: and you kind of get indoctrinated into the movement that way.

1027
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 4: And you're in a marriage like I don't know, Like

1028
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 4: when I was like twenty something, I don't know. I

1029
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 4: didn't know what the hell was going on. So you're

1030
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 4: in this marriage with this dude, and you have kids now,

1031
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 4: and you've seen the other side of it, the hell

1032
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 4: of it up close all the time, people shutting down

1033
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 4: the website. People there were hackers, there's all kinds of

1034
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 4: things that they're dealing with constantly. Everyone is telling you,

1035
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 4: everyone other than people in the movement are finding ways

1036
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 4: whenever they get a chance to speak to you. They're

1037
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 4: telling you, you know, go fuck yourself. We hate this, right,

1038
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 4: we hate you. We don't like this stuff.

1039
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: It's got to be discouraging.

1040
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 4: I mean for years and then now all of a sudden,

1041
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 4: you're turning forty and you've got kids and you're looking

1042
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 4: at this. I mean, I personally would want to like

1043
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 4: just get as far away from it as possible. I mean,

1044
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 4: it just seems like it's just a depressing just you know.

1045
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I said, that's all I want for these

1046
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 3: people is that they stop doing harm in the world.

1047
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 3: And you know, if they have a change of heart,

1048
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 3: that's wonderful. Don't tell us about it. Yeah, just log off,

1049
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 3: just go be normal, go get a real job, stop

1050
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: being a Nazi. Just just go just go be a

1051
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 3: guy in the world.

1052
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would really like that. I think they're kind

1053
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 4: of entering now a sort of post Nazi phase.

1054
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 3: M I mean, because they don't they don't have to

1055
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 3: be edgy anymore. They're the mainstream Republican politics.

1056
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 4: Now you can be just you can just be a

1057
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 4: gracist Nazi at all the time. And that's why it's

1058
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: starting to mutate into like these like whole looks maxing

1059
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 4: and like, you know, which is like in cell but

1060
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 4: like we're not insuls anymore. We hammer our face whatever,

1061
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 4: you know. I just think that they're now so they

1062
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 4: think they're such part of the culture, and it would

1063
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 4: be it'll be very interesting for me to see if

1064
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 4: there is a huge change after this, if we see

1065
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 4: sort of the Trump regime kind of fall, have a

1066
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 4: really hard fall, and some of this really starts to

1067
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 4: break up, what will happen and when people like look

1068
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 4: back at some of the stuff that's happening over the

1069
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 4: past like a few years, even as there's been this

1070
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 4: tremendous explosion. If you look at the time from when

1071
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 4: the book ended, which is again on the election day,

1072
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 4: the day after the election, I'm twenty twenty four.

1073
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: I mean, what a moment to end things.

1074
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, but if you look at that from there to now,

1075
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 4: you see like that was almost like an endpoint before

1076
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 4: this new culture that we're in now where you have

1077
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 4: the shootings in Minneapolis and it's just the outright violence,

1078
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 4: the blown up boats, all this stuff. I'm very curious

1079
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 4: to see our culture, if our culture can heal a

1080
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 4: little bit, how this stuff will be viewed.

1081
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it is, like you said, it ends

1082
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 3: before the story is over. But I think, you know,

1083
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 3: as a portrait of that four year period in that town.

1084
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's fascinating.

1085
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 3: It is I think applicable to the world outside of

1086
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 3: Berkeley Springs, but it is a very intimate look at

1087
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 3: what it means for a weird, old racist blogger to

1088
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 3: move into the castle that looms above your coffee shop. Absolutely,

1089
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 3: I don't want to keep you forever, but I just

1090
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: want to remind the listener strange people on the Hill,

1091
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 3: how extremism for a part a Small American Town by

1092
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 3: Michael Edison Hayden comes out April.

1093
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 4: Seventh, Yeah, April seventh.

1094
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: April seventh.

1095
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: You can pre order it now wherever books are sold,

1096
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 3: or you could just go to a bookstore on April

1097
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 3: seventh and pick a copy up. I'm going to go

1098
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 3: ahead and contact my local anarchists bookstore to make sure

1099
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 3: they have an order in for it, and I recommend

1100
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 3: you do the.

1101
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 4: Same anarchist bookstore.

1102
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: Better don't buy.

1103
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 3: It on Amazon. I mean you can, but don't. Yeah,

1104
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 3: and tell your local library that you want them to

1105
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 3: buy a copy, because that matters too, and that gets

1106
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 3: this book into more people's hands, because not everybody can

1107
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 3: afford to buy a book, So yeah, requested at your

1108
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 3: local independent bookstore and your library if you can.

1109
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 4: Yeah. I heard from friends that like at random places

1110
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 4: in Illinois and whatever, that they can find the book

1111
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 4: at their local library. They we'll be able to get it.

1112
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 4: So that's great. Please ask for it and yeah, and

1113
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 4: enjoy it. I think it'll have. My hope is it

1114
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 4: has long tail. There's some word of mouth about the era.

1115
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 4: So something to read, something to read not just now

1116
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 4: but also in the future.

1117
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a fascinating pick, sure of a particular moment

1118
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 3: in time that has broader lessons I think. But Mike,

1119
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 3: thanks so much for coming on. Where can people find

1120
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 3: you online?

1121
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 4: Thank you? You're so you're even cooler in person.

1122
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 3: I just want to thank you.

1123
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 4: Where can find me online? I'm in Blue Sky? What

1124
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 4: the hell is? What's I hate the Blue Sky handles?

1125
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 4: That was the one thing that you know, people complain

1126
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 4: about Blue Sky and it's like for me, it's like,

1127
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 4: what do you even want? Dude? Like you know, all

1128
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 4: this stuff is so bad, right, Like, what what do

1129
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 4: you even want? It's Michael E. Hayden dot b s

1130
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 4: k Y dot social s O c I A L.

1131
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 4: I'm still technically on Twitter at Michael E. Hayden, where

1132
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 4: I've always been. You know, when I was writing the

1133
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 4: book and I was recovering from the mental health thing,

1134
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 4: I wasn't online at all for all twenty twenty four

1135
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 4: and so myke nice that like createred my my ex engagement.

1136
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 4: In any case, I don't like being on there too much,

1137
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 4: just for for anything other than research.

1138
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 2: And people can find you every week on posting through

1139
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 2: Jared Hall.

1140
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 4: Oh that's true. Yeah, just you know, just do that.

1141
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 4: You can listen to us talk about all kinds of things.

1142
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 4: We're talking about cospital, We're talking about the AI fruits

1143
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 4: that we keep finding on our feeds.

1144
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 3: Now, all kinds of topics, the AI fruits. Oh my,

1145
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 3: thank you so much. And again by the book, You're

1146
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 3: gonna love it. Thanks Mallia, thanks so much.

1147
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 2: Bye bye.

1148
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

1149
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1150
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1151
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1152
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It could Happen Here.

1153
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 1: Listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,