1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: As soon as you give people power, you will find 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 2: that that person is absolutely capable of behaving very, very badly. 4 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 7 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,959 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a dive into the stories behind 14 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: the stories. Most of us know that women are just 15 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: as capable of killing as men are, yet most true 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: crime stories cover men killing women, which makes sense considering 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: the statistics. But author Jennifer Wright wrote a book called 18 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: She Kills Me. She did research on dozens of stories 19 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: where women are the killers, and now she tells us why. 20 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: One of the reasons that I wanted to write She 21 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 2: Kills me was because I listened to a lot of 22 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: true crime podcasts, and the general gist of a lot 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: of true crime podcasts that I listened to is a 24 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 2: woman was murdered, let's look at men in her life 25 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: who must have done this. And I really wanted to 26 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: write about cases where the genders are reversed, where the 27 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 2: woman is not the person who is being victimized, but 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: the person doing the victimizing. And there are so many 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 2: cases of that throughout history. Because when women are given power, 30 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: they are apt to abuse it just as men are 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: apt to abuse it. And because women have often been 32 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: put in situations, whether it's incredibly abusive marriages or just 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: times of when they've had very very few rights, when 34 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 2: they've been enslaved, that they really have no recourse other 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: than killing the people who are abusing them. And it 36 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: was such an interesting experience to look at all the 37 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: reasons that women might have chosen to kill and as 38 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: some of the really fascinating cases through history where that's happened. 39 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: What is it that is interesting to you? I know, 40 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: we just talked about sort of the perception that we 41 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: have of women as killers. Normally we're framing them as victims. Certainly. 42 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: I've written books and done stories where the majority of 43 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: it is women who are murdered by men. In your book, 44 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: it'says forty cases, and I just kind of thought I 45 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: would struggle to come up with forty cases that I 46 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: know fairly well I think about the subject. 47 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it was it was so much fun. I 48 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: think there are actually more cases. One of the worries 49 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: for me was you can only have so many Nazi hunters. 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: I love writing about women who killed Nazis, but really 51 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: we only needed two or three of those in the book. 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: So there are actually many, many more cases of women 53 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: who have been spies during wars, or who've been put 54 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 2: in situations where they have had to kill their abusive husbands, 55 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: often using poison. And it was really a matter of saying, Okay, 56 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: these are some very unique cases. And these are cases 57 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 2: where I don't see overlap with a lot of other 58 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: women who were working as spies during World War two 59 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: and killing Nazis. 60 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: What are the major differences do you think between the 61 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: female killer and the male killer? Because when I've talked 62 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: about that with you know, different forensic psychologists, and they 63 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: just say, really, a lot of times it comes down 64 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: to the motive and does a woman need to eliminate competition? 65 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: Is she doing it, you know, out of passion and 66 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: sometimes men do it of pleasure. But do you think 67 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: that there are parallels to men and women really when 68 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: it comes down to it, that women can have the 69 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: same motivations as men do. 70 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,679 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think women are taught from a very early 71 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: age that you are not supposed to be openly angry 72 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: at people, that you are supposed to be sweet. You 73 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: are supposed to be polite all the time. And I 74 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: think that's one of the reasons that poison is referred 75 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 2: to as a woman's murdered weapon. You don't see as 76 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: many cases where there are these violent, bloody roles with women, 77 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: but you see a lot of cases where a woman 78 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: in history is in a very bad marriage and suddenly 79 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: the man just gets very sick. At the same time 80 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: that women were buying a lot of arsenack, there was 81 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: actually a case introduced in British Parliament at one point 82 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: that would forbid women from buying arsnack. Now it didn't pass, 83 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: and one of the reasons that it didn't pass was 84 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: because women said that they needed to kill rats in 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: the kitchen. But the reason that they wanted that to 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: pass was because they were very afraid of women using 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: earthenic to kill their bad husbands. So there are differitely 88 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 2: cases where women are trapped, but there are also absolutely 89 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: cases where if we look to Russia prior to the 90 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: Revolution of where women have had control of a great 91 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: number of serfs, where they have taken enormous pleasure in 92 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: torturing and killing those people. Now again I think you 93 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: can say that maybe the patriarchy is in some ways 94 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: it worked. Maybe those women themselves feel somewhat oppressed by 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: society and they're looking for a way to take that 96 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: anger out on other people. Many of us have days 97 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: where we don't feel great about society and we do 98 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: not beat our serfs within an inch of their lives. 99 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: So I think in cases where you have seen women 100 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: have control over other people, whether they're serfs in Russia 101 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 2: or whether they are black people in a mans, women 102 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: have taken just as much pleasure as men in abusing 103 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: their power over other people. 104 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: And it's interesting in certain parts of history there is 105 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: a time when women have, because of the poisons, have 106 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: all of these options right, They're able to easily obtain 107 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: poisons and use them. And then in the case of 108 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: like a Lizzie Borden, who supposedly violently killed her parents, 109 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: you have an all male jury who just says, this 110 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: is impossible. And I've done a lot of cases like 111 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: this where it is very clear that you know, this 112 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: is somebody who has committed a crime, and yet you 113 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: have an all male jury that just cannot fathom that 114 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: a woman would actually be able to do either something 115 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: violent or even something sneaky. So there seems to be 116 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: this sort of intersection in time where women there's this 117 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: rise of women being able to access all of these, 118 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, these poisons, but at the same time men 119 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: still being sort of gullible enough to believe that they're 120 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: not going to use them. 121 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: I think that is absolutely true, and it's such a 122 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: great point. But something I did find as I was 123 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: reading about all these cases is that's only true if 124 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: it's well born white women. Yeah, and it's especially to 125 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: if they're pretty. If it's a pretty white woman, this 126 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: beautiful angel could never kill anyone, but if she did, 127 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: he deserved it. If you're talking about immigrant women, or 128 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: if you're talking about black women, men can really believe 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: that those are women who are going to kill other people, 130 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: So it depends a little bit on whether or not 131 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: you're well born. There's one case, and there's a great 132 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: quote from a Chicago newspaper. It was one of the 133 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: jazz age murderesses that said that this woman was hung 134 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: because she never went to the beauty parlor. Oh gosh, 135 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: if she had been pretty and she'd been on trial, 136 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: then she would have gotten away with them. 137 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about I think this case that you 138 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: have in particular out of this book is really interesting. 139 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: Where are we in time, what year, what country. 140 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: We're in Britain, and we're looking at the eighteen sixties, 141 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: in the early eighties, in seventies. So Christiana Edwards was 142 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: born in eighteen twenty nine in England. She was the 143 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: daughter of an architect, so she came from a pretty 144 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: well established, well to do family. But it was also 145 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: a family with a history of insanity. So her father 146 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: died in a mental asylum. Her brother was also institutionalized. 147 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: Now Christiana seemed like she had somewhat escaped the problems 148 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: of her family. She was sent off to boarding school 149 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: and once she graduated, she returned to care for her 150 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: aging mother and they bought a very nice house in Brighton, 151 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: where Christiana didn't marry, and she was sort of taking 152 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: care of her mother, and pretty quickly by her thirties 153 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: she was seen as a spinster living in a big 154 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: old house on the hill. But she had a neighbor 155 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 2: named doctor Charles Beard, who Christiana quickly became infatuated with. 156 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: She started visiting a dodger Beard many many time for 157 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: supposed complaints, and it became clear to him fairly quickly 158 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 2: that she did not actually seem to be suffering from 159 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: any real medical malady. She was just a little bored. 160 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: She was a little lonely. And I think, in part 161 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: because we are very apt to try to exonerate women 162 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 2: who kill, there are a lot of people who wonder, well, 163 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: were she and Charles Beard having an affair? Was he 164 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 2: sort of praying on this younger woman's affections? And Charles 165 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: Beard was very adamant throughout his life that he thought 166 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: that maybe he flirted with her once or twice, but 167 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: really she just kept sending him letter after letter after letter, 168 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: so there's nothing to suggest that they were having a 169 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 2: mutual affair. And finally, after this had gone on for 170 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: a while in eighteen seventy one, Charles Beard told Christina 171 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: that he thought that she must be a little bit 172 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 2: lonely living all by herself with her mother, so maybe 173 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: it would be nice if she came and visited him 174 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: and his wife. Wouldn't she love to go visit doctor 175 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: Beard's life? And Christina, in a way that surprised me 176 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: a little bit, was very enthusiastic about this possibility, and 177 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: immediately afterwards went down to pay a call on the 178 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 2: doctor's wife. And when she was paying this call, she 179 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: brought a box of chocolate swepper. Now, she gave one 180 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 2: of the chocolates to missus Beard, and missus Beard immediately 181 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: spat out the chocolate, said it was disgusting, became very 182 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 2: very ill. And I want to say that when I 183 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: read this, I was so proud of missus Beard, because 184 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 2: if somebody gave me disgusting chocolates, I would choke every 185 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: one of them down, and I'd be like, these are gross, 186 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: but they are a gift and I'm being for watch. 187 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: So I must have tasted terrible, I mean really right exactly, 188 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: So doctor Beard. 189 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: Came home and noticed that these chocolates were filled with strychnine. Poisoning. Now. 190 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: He immediately went to Christiana and said, what are you doing? 191 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: Why are you trying to poison my wife? What's going on? 192 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 2: And Christiana said, oh, this is a horrible misunderstanding. These 193 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: chocolates that I bought must just have been poisoned. And 194 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: under Beard was like, all right, whatever, never talk to 195 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: me or my family again. He wasn't going to report 196 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: this to the police for fear that there was going 197 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: to be a scandal, that people would think that maybe 198 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: he and Christiana were sleeping together. But it was very clear, like, 199 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: you are never to come to my house or contact 200 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: me again. Conversation. 201 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: How did doctor Beard know that there was strych nine 202 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: in the chocolate? 203 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: Stryctnine was a fairly common poison at the time. People 204 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: would use it to kill stray cats, among other things, 205 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: so it wouldn't have been an uncommon thing for a 206 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: person in the medical profession to recognize. 207 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: So he smelled it, do we think or is it granules? 208 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: I assumed he smelled it. Okay, I personally have never 209 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: encountered stric nine poisoning, right, but I do know it 210 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: was a fairly common poison at the time, so I 211 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 2: don't think it would have been totally mysterious. I feel 212 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 2: like if chocolates were filled with bleach, probably the average 213 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: person who has used bleach to clean their counters could 214 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: recognize it. Now, So maybe we're talking about something that 215 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: kind of operates along those lines. 216 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: So Charles Beard is saying, this is a woman who 217 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: clearly has an infatuation for me. She comes down, she 218 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: meets my wife, she gives her chocolates that clearly are 219 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: laced with poison. My wife is sick and she doesn't die, 220 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: But he says, I want nothing more to do with you. 221 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: Do we know what Christianna's reaction to. 222 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: This is is she surprised, immediate denial, full and total 223 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: denial that she too has been tricked. She has gone 224 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: to Mainnhard's, the local chocolate store, and she just bought 225 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: these poison chocolates. And in the next few weeks, other 226 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: people start getting very sick from chocolates that they bought 227 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: at Maynards. And Maynards don't really understand what's happening, but 228 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: they do know that a lot of people are getting 229 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: very sick. And this all comes to a head when 230 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: a four year old toddler named Sidney Barker was taken 231 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: by his uncle to Maynards and they bought a bagful 232 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: of candy. He ate a lot of that, and the 233 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: toddler died. Now what was happening was that Christiana was 234 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: taking a syringe, buying chocolates from Maynards, filling them with strychnine, 235 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 2: and then returning them so that she could have plausible 236 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: deniability that she did not try to kill Doctor Beard's wife. Eventually, 237 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 2: this was tracked back for her because while she had 238 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: been buying out boxes of chocolates from Maynards, she'd also 239 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: been having local boys go to the chemist and buy 240 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: her strych nine. So people were eventually able to put 241 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: together the two and find out that this woman is 242 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: repeatedly buying chocolates, poisoning them and trying to pass it 243 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: off as a problem with the chocolate ear rather than 244 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: the problem with herself. At one point she told people 245 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: that they should sue Manards, which really feels so bad 246 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: for the poor man running this chocolate store who is 247 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: just trying to run a nice establishment and just not 248 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: realize that this woman is constantly poisoning chocolates in his store. 249 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: So once doctor Beard has said goodbye to her and 250 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: that's it. Does she continue trying to contact him? 251 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: Oh? 252 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: Yes, what is she saying in this contact with him? 253 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: I still have a hard time believing that there was 254 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: not some sort of something between the two of them, 255 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: But I don't know. 256 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: It's entirely possible. It's also possible, and I think it's 257 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: something we don't talk about a lot with women, is 258 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: that this was kind of a bored woman who did 259 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: not have a job, She did not have a rich 260 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: social life. It must have been an exciting feeling of 261 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: power to realize that you could cause chaos in a 262 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: town like this, rightem was a fairly well to do town. 263 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: It was a very reserved English town, and suddenly realizing 264 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: I can create chaos must have been an exciting feeling 265 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: if you were a woman during this period. So yes, 266 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: I think it's possible that she was having an affair 267 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: with doctor Beard. I also think a lot of people 268 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: have affairs and do not poison their partners lives, So 269 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: I don't really think it excuses it if they were 270 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: having an affair. And at her trial in eighteen seventy two, 271 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: Christiana was deemed insane. Christiana was sent to a lunatic 272 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: asylum rather than being executed. And to your point, the 273 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: pall Mall Gazette in London in eighteen seventy two said 274 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: that she used to be reprieved for the far simpler 275 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: reason that she is a woman and not a man. 276 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: They pointed out that this woman had a very clear motive, 277 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: that she acted very sensibly under the circumstances, and that 278 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: she really to know what she was doing the entire time. 279 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: So the reason that she resumed a lunatic really just 280 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 2: had to do with the fact that we're talking about 281 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: a woman here in that man. And seemingly during her 282 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: time at the mental asylum she enjoyed playing pranks on 283 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: the other people. She continued to profess her love for 284 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: doctor Beard until the end of her life, and she 285 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: continued to talk about how she was a great beauty 286 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: until the end of her life. So she did not 287 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: seem to have a particularly distressing time in the mental asylum. 288 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: But she also was never released from the asylum. 289 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: So we have a woman who it sounds like, of 290 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: course has some sort of mental difficulty mental illness happening, 291 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: but also as someone who is acting rationally enough to 292 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: try to cover up a crime. I mean, this feels 293 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: very similar to we just had an author on talk 294 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: about the Stella Nicols story, the woman who poisoned I 295 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: think it was etc. Tablets in the eighties to kill 296 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: her husband and ends up killing other people to cover 297 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: it up. So you know you have someone who is 298 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: really being calculating, but because she's a woman in this 299 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: time period, you know they want to show her mercy. 300 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: And over and over and again, every time I report 301 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: on a woman, we see that almost always, that there's 302 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: this sort of idea of mercy. Is there another case 303 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: that it is very clear that this is someone who 304 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: did it because they just wanted to do it, that they, 305 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned before, got great pleasure out of killing someone. 306 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: Oh. Oh, Delphie l Loerie is an especially horrifying case. 307 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: Delphie L. Loorie was a very wealthy slave owner from 308 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: New Orleans. You can still see the lo Loorie mansion 309 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 2: if you travel to New Orleans. And she was known 310 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 2: for being very charming and very elegant. She had wonderful parties, 311 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: but she was also known for having extreme fits of rage. 312 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 2: And that's something that her children talk about when they 313 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: were for their mother and they talk about how they 314 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: were very careful to avoid anything that might excite the 315 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: mom's bad mood. And it's very unfortunate that during this 316 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 2: period Delphine La Lourie enslaved people, and they were treated 317 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: so badly at this time that it shocked even her 318 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: neighbors in New Orleans, who noticed that the Lolorie slaves 319 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: look very malnourished and very very ill treated. Lawyer was 320 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: actually sent to Lolorie's house in eighteen thirty two by 321 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 2: the neighbors to remind her about a loss stipulating that 322 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: enslaved people could be taken from their masters if they 323 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: were being treated too cruelly, But the lawyer left their 324 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 2: meeting to stock that anybody could accuse this beautiful, elegant 325 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: woman of treating her slaves poorly. This all eventually came 326 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 2: to a head with a fire set in eighteen thirty four. 327 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: It was set by a cook who was being starved 328 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: to death despite the fact that she was being kept 329 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 2: chained within a few feet of the stove. If you 330 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: have ever been to some of the old cookhouses or 331 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: kitchens in the South, you can imagine how boiling that 332 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: must have been. The cook eventually very bravely decided that 333 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: she's going to burn this house down, and she is 334 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: probably going to die in the process, but it will 335 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: be worth it to try to rescue everyone else. And 336 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 2: the blaze alert at their neighbors, and the neighbors race 337 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: to help extinguish the fire, as would have been the 338 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: custom during this time, but they noticed that while Delphine 339 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: was outside, she didn't have anyone with her. And normally 340 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 2: if you saw a fire in a mansion like this, 341 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: you would see all the members of the household pouring 342 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: out of the mansion. When they went to fight the flames, 343 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 2: they found the cook who had set the fire, who 344 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: was still locked to the stove, and the cook screamed 345 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 2: at them to go up to the attic right away, 346 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: and the authorities were led up to the attic, and 347 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 2: there they found seven enslaved people chained up, and they 348 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: saw them. Visitors became physically ill, their skins were rotting 349 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: off their bodies. In eighteen thirty eight, the sociologist Harriet 350 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: Martineau wrote of the dying slaves. The skeletons of two 351 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: were afterwards found PopEd into the ground. The other seven 352 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: could scarcely be recognized as human their faces had the 353 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 2: wildness of famine. Their bones were beginning to come through 354 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: their skin. They were chained and tied and constrained postures, 355 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: some on their knees, some with their hands stuck above 356 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: their head. They had iron collars with spikes which kept 357 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: their heads stuck in one possession, and next to them 358 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: could be seen Delphine's whip and stool which she would 359 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: stand upon so she had a better angle with which 360 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: to beat all of these people. These sites were enough 361 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: for the neighbors to turn on Delphine in what maybe 362 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: the only dime in history that a torch wielding mob 363 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 2: was absolutely right. Her neighbors just decided to finish the 364 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 2: hooks were and burn that mansion to the ground. But 365 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: Delphine and her husband were able to escape and they 366 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: went away to Paris. So again a woman not really 367 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: being punished despite behaving in an absolutely atrocious manner. Okay, 368 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 2: we talked a little bit about the horrors of the 369 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 2: old regime in Russia, and one woman that really exemplified 370 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: the course of that time where Darya Saltikova. She was 371 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: born in seventeen thirty and lived until eighteen oh one. 372 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: And again this is really a story about how abusive 373 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 2: women can be when they're given power over other people, 374 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: and it really just is the case that history that 375 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: doesn't happen as often as power is given to men. 376 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 2: But Darya Saltikova was the mistress of a very large 377 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 2: Russian state, and she was the owner of hundreds of serfs. 378 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: So she was also a young widow at the age 379 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 2: of twenty five. Now, she a young widow is a 380 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: faith that was really hoped for by many many women 381 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: in history. It meant that she could be in charge 382 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: of an estate, she could kind of do what she 383 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: wanted in a day, and she could remarry for love 384 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: if she was interested in doing that. And Daria really 385 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: embraced this autonomy during her marriage. She'd been known for 386 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: being very shy, she'd been very introverted, but she came 387 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: out of her shell in her widowhood and she quickly 388 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: embarked on a romance with a very handsome man named 389 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: Nikolay Tutchevs. Now, this romance didn't ultimately go well, but 390 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: the affair did last for a while, last Ya until 391 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 2: Daria was thirty two years old, and then she found 392 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: out that Nicholas intended to marry another much younger woman, 393 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 2: and at that she became absolutely apoplectic with rage, so 394 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 2: she decided to blow the couple's house up. She bought gunpowder, 395 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 2: she sent her serfs to the new woman's house, and 396 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: the serfs chose not to act very reasonably, so Daria said, okay, well, 397 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: if you're not going to blow their house up, can 398 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 2: you beat them to death? The serfs again decided they 399 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: didn't really want to beat two people they didn't know 400 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 2: to death, and they just told Nickolay about Dariu's intentions, 401 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 2: and he filed a report with the police, which she denied. 402 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 2: He and his new bride fled to a different town. 403 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: But Daria really took out her rage on the serfs, 404 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: and she had always been a harsh mistress. There's a 405 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: wonderful excerpt about this in Lady Killers, which is another 406 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: absolutely fantastic book on this topic that dives in more 407 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: detail into some female killers that talks about how Daria 408 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: lit one woman's hair on fire, she pushed an eleven 409 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: year old child down a stone staircase. She would grab 410 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: logs of woods tucked in every room and then for 411 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: the fireplace and use them as makeshift clubs with which 412 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: to beat her servants. When the serfs escaped and attempted 413 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 2: to report her to the authorities, she replied, laughing, no 414 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 2: matter how much you report her complain about me, the 415 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: authorities will never do anything for me. And her abuses escalated. 416 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: After the breakdown of this love affair. Of her six hundred, 417 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 2: she murdered one hundred and thirty eight of them. Finally, 418 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: Daria's crimes escalated to a point where they were brought 419 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: to the attention of Empress Catherine the Grade in seventeen 420 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: sixty two by two of her serfs, and the two 421 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: had escaped from the estate after Daria had killed their wives. 422 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: They made their way to Moscow illegally. If they were caught, 423 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: Daria would have killed them, and against the astonishingly unlikely odds, 424 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: they managed to get a letter detailing their mistress abuses 425 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 2: to be Empress, and they begged the Empress to protect 426 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 2: them from mortal ruin and merciless in human torment. And Catherine, 427 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: as I think people familiar with her reign now, was 428 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: so eager to be seen as seen as this progressive empress, 429 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: so she didn't automatically dismiss the serf's complaints as many 430 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: of her predecessors would. Instead, an investigator named Stephen Volkov 431 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 2: was appointed to look into the case. Now, Stephen came 432 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 2: from a very poor family, so he might have felt 433 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: a little bit more sympathy towards the serfs than he 434 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: did towards the aristocracy, and he found enough evidence of 435 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: Saltykova's crimes to have her tried pride. And this is 436 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: remarkable given these cases found guilty and the death penalty 437 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: had been revoked in residuring this period. But Daria was 438 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 2: made to wear a sign around her neck and walk 439 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 2: through the public square declaring this woman tortures and murders. 440 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 441 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: It was a time when cruelty to wars was so 442 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 2: prevalent during this time that I think people might have 443 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,239 Speaker 2: seen this and thought, well, we're all doing that to 444 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: our serfs. But I think it was also a moment 445 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: of where people were getting to at least realize that 446 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: it was not okay to murder people based on a 447 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: class system. So this is kind of an exciting turning 448 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 2: point for Russia. Darnia ended up living in the basement 449 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 2: of convent, where she spent the rest of her days 450 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: in total isolation, and members of the upper classes would 451 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: periodically walk by the convent and peek through the grate 452 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: so they could make fun of her. It was a 453 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: very rare case. A very well born woman, a woman 454 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 2: who was considered beautiful and powerful, actually does need some 455 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: level of real punishment for her crimes. 456 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: Will you tell me a story about a woman who 457 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: just simply murders her partner? 458 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: All right? Mary Elizabeth Wilson's marriage to her first husband 459 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: lasted a very admirable forty three years. They met when 460 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 2: Mary was working as a servant for the Knowles family, 461 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: and she married their son, John, who worked at a shipyard. 462 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 2: The couple went on to have six children, but before 463 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: long they began to quarrel about money, and Mary felt 464 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: that John was crampner style. She said he didn't like 465 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 2: me having a drink, and that caused a lot of roast. 466 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: Now soon they were sleeping in separate bedrooms, and this 467 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: really frustrated Mary, and to alleviate some of their financial concerns, 468 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: they took in a lodger, and that lodger was a 469 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: Chimney suite named John Russell. Before long, she and Mary 470 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 2: became offers. Their arrangement persisted for the next twenty five years. 471 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 2: Even after John moved out and surprisingly became very religious, 472 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 2: though Mary continued to cook his meals and clean his 473 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: house and of course sleep wasn't This sounds extremely time 474 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 2: consuming for Mary and it may not have been fully 475 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: satisfactory to John Knowles, her original husband. He passed away 476 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: from tuberculosis in nineteen fifty five, despite the fact that 477 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: Mary tended to him exclusively for the two weeks leading 478 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 2: up to his death. He left all of his money 479 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: to the Jarro Gospel Hall. So all Mary inherited from 480 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: that marriage was forty two pounds, not because he left 481 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: it to her, but because she found forty two pounds 482 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: in the cupboard. 483 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: Because he knew, oh, yes, he knew. 484 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: Yes. 485 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: Why in that time period would you say married to 486 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: somebody when having an affair? 487 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: Divorce was very difficult, more difficult than it would have 488 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: been today. We're talking about a period before no fault divorce. 489 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 2: We're also talking about people who did not have much 490 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 2: money to begin with. So if you know people who 491 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: get divorced today, divorce is very expensive. It's very expensive, 492 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: it's very time consuming. It was much easier for a 493 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: couple to just say, all right, we're going to lead 494 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: separate lives. We're going to remain married, but we're going 495 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: to accept that you're going to sleep with other people. 496 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: I'm going to sleep with other people. We are now 497 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: married in name only. 498 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: Twenty five year affair. 499 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: Really, yeah, it was going on for a very long time. Now. 500 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 2: He didn't move out of the house, so at Leasta's 501 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: affair wasn't entirely happening in the house that they all 502 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: shared together. But yes, they had a very long affair. Now. 503 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: She moved in with her lover, John Russell after this, 504 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: who she referred to as her fancyman. But John Russell 505 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: died four months later, also completely debt ridd and did 506 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: not leave Mary any money. So Mary had to go 507 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: to work as a housekeeper, and she found employment with 508 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: a seventy five year old man named Oliver Leonard, and 509 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: by most of the towns, Mary was a terrible housekeeper. 510 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: Oliver's house was filled with cobwebs, but by September nineteen 511 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,239 Speaker 2: fifty six, the couple married, and unfortunately, less than two 512 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: weeks later, Oliver was dead and Oliver left Mary everything 513 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: he had. He left her fifty pounds. The money actually 514 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: lasted Mary about a year at which point she answered 515 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: an ad for a housekeeper placed by Ernest Wilson, and 516 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: Wilson found that she would rather have a wife a housekeeper, 517 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: and Mary Reid bought. She told him that she was 518 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 2: only marrying him because she was twenty eight dollars behind 519 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: on her rent. Lest you wonder about how this sixty 520 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: two year old woman kept attracting suitors. She very cabuliarly 521 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: equipped at this time. The men like Mary, and I 522 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: liked the men. She also liked killing them our wedding. 523 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: A friend asked Mary what she would do with the 524 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: leftover sandwiches and the cakes, and she said, I'm going 525 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: to keep them for the funeral. Ernest laughed along with 526 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: everybody else, But fifteen days later he was dead and 527 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: she did get to reuse the food. 528 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 529 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: At the register's office, where she signed both wedding and 530 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: funeral certificates, Mary quipped that she was in the office 531 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: so often there should be a discount for me. And 532 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: Ernest's autopsy, bosphorus and brand, two ingredients found in poison 533 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: used to kill roaches, were found in his viscera. Now, 534 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: upon this realization, people notice that symptoms of Leonard Oliver's 535 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: very brief illness had been merely identical to Ernest Wilson's. 536 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: When the police resumed their bodies, Mary seemed unperturbed, and 537 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,239 Speaker 2: she claimed, I gave them nothing but kindness. Now, her 538 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: lawyer made the fairly effective case that Wilson and Oliver 539 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 2: might have been taken phosphorus as an aphrodisia to keep 540 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: up with Mary. 541 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: What phosphorus is an aphrodisiac? 542 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 3: Really, I've never heard of that, so I don't think 543 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 3: it's a great case, Okay, But that was ultimately dismissed 544 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 3: when it became clear that the men would have had 545 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 3: to have taken one hundred and fifty afrodisiac. 546 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: Pills to poison themselves, and that's a pretty unlikely error, 547 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: even if they were very desperate to keep up with 548 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: their new life. The prosecutor declared that it was, in 549 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: fact a very simple case of a wicked woman who 550 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: married in succession two men and then deliberately poisoned them 551 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: in order to get the poultry benefit that she hoped 552 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: she might obtained by their death. Exactly surprising that Mary 553 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: didn't benefit more financially. But then, had she not stopped, 554 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: we don't know how many times she would have been 555 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: willing to repeat this pattern. She was averaging about one 556 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: hundred dollars every two weeks every time she killed people, 557 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: and she was sentenced to death, but she was given 558 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: a reprief to life imprisonment and spent the rest of 559 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: her life inside a woman's prison. 560 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: Unbelievable story. And yeah, you're right, I mean, just sort 561 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: of another example of a woman, I think, getting away 562 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: with something for so long simply because they're women and 563 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: because of the preconceived notions that we have about them 564 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: and still have. 565 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: Certainly, what does surprise me is that Mary is not 566 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: the only woman in this book who tells her friends 567 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to kill my husband. Yeah, and everybody's like, 568 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: you're so funny, isn't she adorable? Yeah? 569 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: Actually, I've interviewed several people who take a real feminist 570 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: stance on this and just say this is I mean, 571 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: women have every capability of doing exactly what a man 572 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: can do. Don't ever underestimate women. I've interviewed, you know, 573 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: forensic psychologists about people with psychopathy, and they say that 574 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: the research is just terrible for women with psychopathy because 575 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: the majority of the subjects that they have available to 576 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: them are men. Who are incarcerated, and with women, psychopathy 577 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: tends to present differently. Women tend with psychopathy tend to 578 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: be much more manipulative. So what the forensic psychologist I 579 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: spoke to said is that the male psychopath will kill you, 580 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: the female psychopath will ruin your credit and take all 581 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: your money. So it's very different. And so I think 582 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: the way that we look at women who are killers 583 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: or criminals, I think has to be re examined through 584 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: certainly a less misogynistic lens than we normally would. I'm 585 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: assuming you find that that when you're doing this research, 586 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: It's like, howly do you not know this is going 587 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: to happen, that this woman's going to kill someone? 588 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,479 Speaker 2: I do find that, And one of the things that 589 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: I find a little surprising is a great many women 590 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: who I think absolutely identify as being very feminous women 591 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 2: want exonerate every female murderer in history. 592 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: So what else when you were looking into this research? 593 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: What were your criteria? Was it time periods or was 594 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: it the It's not the method of murder, it's the 595 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: motivations and the reaction by their societies. Is that right? 596 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, I am always fascinated by how society responds 597 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: to them and again like it really, it's different if 598 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 2: you're a pretty white woman. And I think that is 599 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 2: still a little bit of the basis behind the compulsion 600 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: to try to exonerate some of these women now that 601 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: as a society then and now just cannot believe that 602 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 2: women that we think of as being well rid women 603 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 2: could ever killed someone. And I think the sort of 604 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: photo negative of that is that if you talk about 605 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: women that we look down on or women that we 606 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: ostracize as society, when you look at immigrants from different periods, 607 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 2: or when you look at very impotful raised women, people 608 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 2: are incredibly just apt to think, well, of course they 609 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 2: did a murder. Of course they did a murder, because 610 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 2: that's part of their dark nature. And I think that's 611 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: something that you've just spent a lot more time thinking 612 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: about as a society, and think about who gets the 613 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt and who doesn't. 614 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: Well, Paul Holes and I, you know, we have a 615 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: show called Married Bones. Paul Holes and I discussed the 616 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: case about a woman who was a black woman who 617 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: was accused of murdering and dismembering her boyfriend, and she 618 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: accused somebody else who was in the room of doing it, 619 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: and he accused her, and he was convicted, and she 620 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,919 Speaker 1: took a plea deal and got less than a year. 621 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: Even though she had admitted to carrying this guy's torso 622 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: wrapped up on a train and depositing it into a river. 623 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: She had been caught with this evidence. And I still 624 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: think the sex aspect of it was still despite the 625 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: fact that this is a black woman, they still said, 626 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: I cannot believe a woman would have done this. There's 627 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: no way, even though Paul and I agree she definitely 628 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: did it. 629 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 2: She did it. 630 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, they couldn't see a woman with a hacksaw dismembering 631 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: a man. I mean, if you think about somebody who 632 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: was I talking Harold Schechter, who wrote about Bell Gunnis. 633 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: Bell Gunnis broke down animals all the time. That's what 634 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: farm people do, That's what she did. So I still 635 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: think that sexism isn't kind of incredible in these kinds 636 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: of stories. 637 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 2: It absolutely is, Yes, And look, we are also looking 638 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 2: into society where yes, I do think people need to 639 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: do what they need to do to break free from 640 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 2: abusive relationships. And again, no fault divorce is a very 641 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: very recent invention. The idea that you can leave a 642 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 2: marriage just because you're unhappy or being verbally abused, or 643 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 2: having a very terrible died with your partner. As I 644 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 2: saved lives not just women who might otherwise have been 645 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 2: trapped in abusive relationships, but also probably at least one 646 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 2: or two men of where a wife might have eventually 647 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: decided I'm gonna tell my friends I'm going to kill 648 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 2: my husband, and then I'm gonna kill my husband now. 649 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: In my third season of my other show tenfold More Wicked, 650 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: I cover a case of Clara Phillips, who was a 651 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: woman who killed her her husband's would be lover who 652 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: was not his lover at all, with a claw hammer. 653 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: And she was nicknamed, you know, the tiger murderess, and 654 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: really sexualized in the media. She was beautiful and had 655 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: this sort of allure about her. Did you do much 656 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: research on the fem fatale, the woman who is so 657 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: dangerous that you don't want her too close, but you 658 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: can't help it. 659 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 2: I did not think of this book in terms of 660 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 2: f fetales when I was looking at these women. I 661 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: thought more in terms of class with and I think, 662 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 2: at least in my understanding of it, and when you 663 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 2: you said term, I guess I'm just thinking of noir 664 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 2: movies with Humphrey Bogard. I think of the fem fatale 665 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 2: as being somewhat removed from class. That she can be 666 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 2: like a very rich woman getting a detective into trouble, 667 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 2: or she can come from nowhere and exert her influence 668 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: through her beauty and her sensuality. So I did not 669 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 2: think of it in those terms, partly because unlike fem 670 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: fatales that I see on screen, if I'm reading about 671 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 2: a woman from seventeen fifty, Records might say that she's beautiful, 672 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: but also Records might have been pressured to say that 673 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: she's beautiful when someone like Christianna Edmunds dot it's about 674 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: how she has been a venus all her life. Was 675 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: she I'm not really sure. Maybe she was very, very beautiful, 676 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 2: and if so, that might have factored into her decisions. 677 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 2: Of course, he might have been delusional, which seems like 678 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 2: it would go along with somebody who poisoned a bunch 679 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 2: of chocolates. So I did not think of it in 680 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 2: terms of them fetales. And I often think that men 681 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 2: kind of want to excuse their own bad decision making 682 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 2: by saying that they were lured into this by fed fatale, 683 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: that they never would have killed this woman's husband if 684 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 2: this woman hadn't been so sexually alluring. Unless you are 685 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: really being abused by another person, it's not really fair 686 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 2: to blame your murders on them. 687 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 1: What do you think you want people to walk away 688 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: with after reading your book? What is the main message here? 689 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 2: I think one of the main message is that power 690 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 2: perhaps equally across all sexes, that as soon as you 691 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 2: give people power, whether it's over a group of enslaved 692 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 2: people or whether it's over a country, you will find 693 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 2: that that person is absolutely ca of behaving very, very badly. 694 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 2: And I think as women gain more power in society, 695 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 2: that is also something to remember that you maybe don't 696 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: want somebody to be the head of a company just 697 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 2: because she's female. You want her to be the head 698 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 2: of a company because this is a good person. I 699 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 2: do think that since women have often been granted less power, 700 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: many of them are a little more familiar with what 701 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,399 Speaker 2: it means to be powerless and a little bit more 702 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 2: sympathetic with the powerless. But think about whether or not 703 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: that person is going to behave well when they are 704 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 2: given power. Also, think about when women are being judged 705 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 2: for crimes, if you are granting them a lot of 706 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 2: sympathy just because you don't think somebody who looks like 707 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 2: them could do something evil. Because I think it's important 708 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: to remember that if we really do believe in equality, 709 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: then we believe that the human soul has the same 710 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 2: capacity for evil cross and hopefully the same capacity for 711 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 2: love and for goodness and for taking care of our 712 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: fellow man, but also the same capacity for evil. 713 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 714 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 715 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 716 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our 717 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,919 Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by 718 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. 719 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 720 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 721 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More and if you 722 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 723 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold More Wicked. Email us at 724 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com. We'll also take your 725 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,720 Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words