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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We were talking about Christmas in the darker side of

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Speaker 2: Christmas traditions and I am kind of wondering, let's start here.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with why we are so fascinating. I guess

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Speaker 2: we have been since a Christmas Carol. What is it

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Speaker 2: that connects to us about the ghosts of Christmas past

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Speaker 2: and future and maybe the maybe it's the end of

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Speaker 2: the year, some of what you've done and where it

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Speaker 2: can go. What do you think fascinates us with that,

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Speaker 2: that that keeps on sticking to our guts?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really does. I think a lot of it

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Speaker 3: comes from I mean, it's literally in our genetics, it's

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Speaker 3: in our DNA. For centuries, there has been traditions of

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Speaker 3: pretty much we're going into the darkest time of the year.

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Speaker 3: You know. Again, the timing of this show is very

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Speaker 3: serendipitous because winter Solstice started on the at least on

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Speaker 3: the West coast. Y'all are still in the first day

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Speaker 3: of the winter solstice over here. It's a little bit

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Speaker 3: after now, but we're entering into you know, really long nights,

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Speaker 3: very short days, and I and during you know, this time,

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Speaker 3: our ancestors, uh, they were staying inside, you know, because

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Speaker 3: it was cold. It was cold, you know, you had

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Speaker 3: a fire roaring with candles. It was the perfect time

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Speaker 3: to dive into ghost stories and you know, spooky stories.

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Speaker 3: And you know, some of these stories were did have

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Speaker 3: a bit of a grim's fairy tale vibe to it,

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Speaker 3: because you know, they were lessons to be learned and

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Speaker 3: and whatnot. But but in a lot of in a

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Speaker 3: lot of different traditions, especially like pagan traditions, especially in

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Speaker 3: Norse paganisms, like this was the time when uh, the

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, those who have who who were

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Speaker 3: who were dead, their spirits would be released from their

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Speaker 3: bodies and then Odin of the Wild Hunt which come

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Speaker 3: and collect their souls. So you didn't want to be

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Speaker 3: outside during this time because then you could be swept

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Speaker 3: away by Odin and the wild Hunt. And so this

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Speaker 3: idea and this belief that you know, the veil is thinner,

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Speaker 3: you know, spirits are wandering about. This is this is

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Speaker 3: a very old concept and I think that really inspired

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Speaker 3: a lot of the ghost stories, and that fascination has

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Speaker 3: continued since and I think in our modern day too,

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Speaker 3: you know, Christmas is very much this, you know, festive, joyful,

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Speaker 3: lots of colors and light, this event. But then you

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Speaker 3: have the almost like a juxtaposition of it with the

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Speaker 3: ghost stories that's a little bit darker. And then of

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Speaker 3: course Charles Dickens managed to who's who is responsible for

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Speaker 3: our current state of Christmas? And I, yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 3: And you have Charles Dickens who comes in and integrates

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Speaker 3: this darker side of winter with the joyfulness of the

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Speaker 3: holidays and puts it all together and does it quite successfully.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know at what age group

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Speaker 2: you are, but when I'm thinking about a Christmas Carol,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all these seventies and eighties sitcoms that

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Speaker 2: had a version of a Christmas Carol that you know,

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Speaker 2: growing up, you would see that and then you would

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Speaker 2: see him on repeats over and over and over against

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Speaker 2: So that basic story seems like it permeated our worlds,

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Speaker 2: like sort of the be careful what you do in

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Speaker 2: this round, because all the ghosts are going to come

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Speaker 2: haunt you and sort of show you your bleak future

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Speaker 2: if you don't get it together. Now, it's sort of

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Speaker 2: a well, it is a cautionary tale right, but when

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Speaker 2: you were talking about ghost stories, I'm gonna put you

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Speaker 2: on the spot here, I know. But you should have

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Speaker 2: been ready for this because we haven't done anything on

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Speaker 2: our list of questions yet. Will you tell us a

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Speaker 2: scary ghost story that maybe somebody might have told around

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Speaker 2: that fire back in the day. Can you give us one,

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Speaker 2: and then we'll talk about the monsters. But let's do

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Speaker 2: storytime first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, actually, one of the one of the most

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Speaker 3: believe it or not, one of the most famous ghost

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Speaker 3: stories that were told that was told around Christmas time

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Speaker 3: is the Turn of the Screw. And if you if

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Speaker 3: you've watched The Haunting of Blind Manner, debt is what

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Speaker 3: that is based on the Turn of the Screw it is.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually one of my favorite Netflix shows. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm so good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's it was written by Henry James in

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Speaker 3: eighteen ninety eight, so it was told a little bit

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Speaker 3: after Christmas Carol came out, so the whole telling of

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Speaker 3: ghost stories at Christmas was very much well established by

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Speaker 3: this time. But yeah, so you have this in the

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Speaker 3: Turn of the Screw. You have a governess who was

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Speaker 3: hired to take care of his niece and nephew. And

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Speaker 3: while she is, you know, taking care of the kids

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Speaker 3: and in the house, she starts noticing some really weird things,

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Speaker 3: like the children's behaviors very odd. She starts to see

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Speaker 3: ghosts around the house and they look strange, they have

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Speaker 3: like they just don't look right, and she's finally able

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Speaker 3: to identify them as ghosts. But while she's trying to

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Speaker 3: take care of these children, she's realizing that these children

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Speaker 3: are also seeing the ghosts as well, and they're being

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Speaker 3: influenced by these uh by these ghosts. And then finally,

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Speaker 3: in like the pinnacle of it, the governess Uh ends

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Speaker 3: up having to save the little girl, the niece uh

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Speaker 3: because the niece has been talking to a ghost by

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Speaker 3: the name of Miss Jessel, almost surrounded and then finally

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Speaker 3: is able to save her. But yeah, but then it

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Speaker 3: comes to fruition that these children were possessed by these

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Speaker 3: ghosts because they are because the other the other son,

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Speaker 3: Miles Uh, he's saying that he remembers he he knows

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Speaker 3: he was expelled from from school, but he doesn't know why.

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Speaker 3: So there's like that story of possession. So there's this

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Speaker 3: whole thing of Unfortunately, turn the screw does have a

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Speaker 3: little bit of sadder ending. I don't want to spoil

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Speaker 3: it for anyone. It is a little different from the

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Speaker 3: Haunting of Blind manner. But yeah, so there's there's so

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Speaker 3: that whole idea of like, you know, you have a

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Speaker 3: governess coming in and take care of children and there's

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Speaker 3: something weird in the house to children aren't acting right,

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Speaker 3: and then it just comes to this comes to fruition

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Speaker 3: with this finale of like there's ghosts and they're possessing

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Speaker 3: the children. But this is a very popular story, uh,

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Speaker 3: during during the holidays.

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Speaker 2: There's something too, I think about when when you're telling that,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of visualizing things in my head and you

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Speaker 2: get like sort of a snow covered landscape where it's

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Speaker 2: sort of cold. It almost feels like, well, there's no

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Speaker 2: escape from the ghost either. You're sort of snow bound

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Speaker 2: and you're trapped in this this sort of icy kind

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Speaker 2: of purgatory. That feels like it's a little extra MacB

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Speaker 2: to me too.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, that's the thing, you know, being trapped

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Speaker 3: in being unable to go out, especially as a Victorian

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Speaker 3: age like you did not girally go outside in the

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Speaker 3: winter unless you absolutely had to, and if you were

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Speaker 3: out in the country, you're not You're not going to

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Speaker 3: see anybody until spring, So like you were stuck.

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Speaker 2: What inspired you to kind of explore the darker side

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Speaker 2: of Christmas traditions?

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Speaker 3: You know? So for me, you know, growing up and

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Speaker 3: having Christmas, you know, with my family and everything, you know,

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Speaker 3: always very positive, very you know, mule tie joy filled events.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, my grandmother died in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and then my mother passed in twenty fifteen, so kind

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Speaker 3: of like the glue that both elements of the glue

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Speaker 3: that kind of held my family together was gone. And

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Speaker 3: you know, then the holidays ended up not being like

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Speaker 3: the happiest times for me because you know, between grieving

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Speaker 3: and I'm also an only child and the rest of

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Speaker 3: my families on the other side of the country, it

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Speaker 3: was very much like, you know, the holidays were nice,

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Speaker 3: but you know, they weren't what they used to be,

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Speaker 3: and it actually sent me into a little bit of

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Speaker 3: a depression of it. And as I have more so

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Speaker 3: accepted and embraced them. And plus you know, the trauma

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Speaker 3: of surviving a horrific accident, you know, that's that's the

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Speaker 3: sticks with you for the rest of your life looking

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Speaker 3: into Christmas monsters and ghost stories. It gave me a

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Speaker 3: way to lean into the holidays still and you know,

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Speaker 3: have some and have some fun with it. And I'm

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Speaker 3: a big history person too, so being able to research

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Speaker 3: these different figures and Christmas war and realizing like Christmas

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Speaker 3: wasn't always or Mule or you know, the holidays weren't

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Speaker 3: necessarily always this like really positive festive time of years,

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Speaker 3: and in some periods of time and in some countries,

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Speaker 3: it was probably one of the most horrific times a year,

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Speaker 3: especially if you were.

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Speaker 2: A child in your Okay, because.

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Speaker 3: Let's just say, one of the most notable, I think

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Speaker 3: one of the most famous holiday figures that has crossed

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Speaker 3: the across the pond into our popular and dark culture

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Speaker 3: today is Crompus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, I was going to bring that up

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Speaker 2: before you get going. It was interesting because I was

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Speaker 2: talking to the Coast crew here and I was talking

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Speaker 2: about Christmas monsters. They're like Christmas monsters, there's Christmas monsters.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh yeah, like Crampis And they haven't even

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Speaker 2: heard of Crampis. So I know about Crampis because of

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Speaker 2: the movie and beyond that nothing, So can you give

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Speaker 2: us a little history of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Crampis or Crompus, however you know, anyone wants

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Speaker 3: to pronounce it if you're German, probably Crompus is pretty

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Speaker 3: much the companion to Saint Nick. Some people will say

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Speaker 3: Santa Claus, but uh, it's it's very specific to Saint Nick's.

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Speaker 3: So Saint the theets of Saint Nicholas is on December

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Speaker 3: sixth and the night before Saint Nicholas. And this is

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Speaker 3: very much in central and Eastern Alpine tradition. You know,

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Speaker 3: Saint Nicholas would go around to the different homes well

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Speaker 3: behaved children got small gifts. However, he had a he

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Speaker 3: had a buddy with them. He has a buddy named

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Speaker 3: Crampis with him. And Crampis is this anthromorphic horned humanoid figure.

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Speaker 3: He has horns, he's got a very long tongue. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: he has hooks. He's had, you know, covered in skins,

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Speaker 3: and so as Saint Nicholas is giving uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: rewards and gifts with to the good children, Crampis is

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Speaker 3: punishing the naughty kids by either hitting them with birch rods.

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Speaker 3: He has a basket a lot of the vintage art

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Speaker 3: with Crampis has him putting the in the baskets and

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Speaker 3: taking them down to hell.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad that only morphed into

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Speaker 2: a lump of coal, right, right? Is that where we

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Speaker 2: got that from them? Of cole is from Crampis?

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Speaker 3: Uh? You know, there's It's interesting you mentioned that because

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Speaker 3: the lump of coal does come up in a couple

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Speaker 3: of different especially Scandinavian folklore with the holidays. Crampis is

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Speaker 3: not even the most terrifying figure.

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Speaker 2: By the way, what a much more terrifying than taking

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Speaker 2: little children the hell oh people trying to go to sleep? Sorry,

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Speaker 2: go ahead, Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: So there is a female figure. Her name is brow Parstaff.

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Speaker 3: So she is the upholder of tradition. So during the

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Speaker 3: what we would know as the twelve days of Christmas

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Speaker 3: or the twelve days of Yule, so between December twenty

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Speaker 3: fifth and January second Epiphany, she wanders the she wanders

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Speaker 3: the countryside, the very snowy country side, and she goes

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Speaker 3: into your home. So a lot of people will describe

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Speaker 3: her as like a witch. She goes into your home,

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Speaker 3: she waits to see, she looks to see if one

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Speaker 3: your house is clean. Two you've had her traditional feast

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Speaker 3: of fish and gruel, so delicious. And also if you

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Speaker 3: had spun your flax, so spinning flas that you know

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Speaker 3: in the older days was very important. If you didn't

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Speaker 3: have those elements done, she would slit open your belly

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Speaker 3: and di value and stuffy was straw and garbage instead.

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Speaker 2: Whoa oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: And she also has a little group of demons one

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Speaker 3: we could say demons with her. They're known as the straggle.

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Speaker 3: And while she's doing her business, if you don't leave

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Speaker 3: your leftovers out for the straggle, they look very similar

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Speaker 3: to cramfis. They will either rob the children or they

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Speaker 3: will tear your children to pieces if you all leave

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Speaker 3: out your leftover.

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Speaker 2: Why why are we so mean to kids? Like with

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Speaker 2: all of our our fairy tales and all the even

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Speaker 2: Disney movies where they always kill off the understanding parents.

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Speaker 2: This is like it's almost like the traditions continued where

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Speaker 2: it's like it's the happiest day of the year, but

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Speaker 2: there's a dark side.

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Speaker 3: It's amazing motivation to behave.

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Speaker 2: What's her name again? Did you say frau?

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Speaker 3: What fraw pershta?

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Speaker 2: And is there a, is there a more Anglo version

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Speaker 2: of that that I've never heard of. I've never heard

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Speaker 2: of Frau Psta before, but I am terrified, and I

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Speaker 2: will always clean my house and flax and spin my flax.

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Speaker 3: I know, right, I've never spun flax before, but I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna go.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna spend it.

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Speaker 3: In terms of Anglo versions, a lot of the I

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Speaker 3: haven't found any, mostly because you know, Catholicism and Protestantism,

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Speaker 3: you know, did come in fairly uh fairly early, so

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Speaker 3: a lot of the its traditions were pre Christian But then,

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Speaker 3: you know, as Christianity was starting to make its way

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Speaker 3: uh into more into the deeper parts of Europe, you know,

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Speaker 3: there seems to be that a lot of the especially

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Speaker 3: the Catholic figures at the time, really trying to integrate

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Speaker 3: pagan practices into uh with Christianity, and some of it,

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Speaker 3: you know, some of it worked and some of it didn't.

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Speaker 3: But there's there's some stories that they were able to

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Speaker 3: like mix up and integrate that I was like, oh wow,

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Speaker 3: they actually did it and it seemed to go well.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of an Anglo version version, I've actually

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Speaker 3: been trying to dig deeper into that because I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure British children were acting up just as bad

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Speaker 3: as the European and they were, well, Britain's part of Europe,

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Speaker 3: but as like the Germanic children and the Italian children,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure like they were cutting up just as bad.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that would keep me in line, that's for sure, right, right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: for sure. And Crampas is not that's been around, right,

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Speaker 2: that's not. That's not just an invention of the movies

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Speaker 2: like in two thousand and five, right, That's been around

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Speaker 2: for centuries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So Crampis has been around probably since

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Speaker 3: I want to say, fourth, third or fourth century. There's

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Speaker 3: there's indications that Crampis may have made some rounds as

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Speaker 3: early as that, so around the time like the Romans

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Speaker 3: were celebrating Saturnalia, you know, Yule, And it's fairly accepted

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Speaker 3: why it's widely accepted that he predates Christianity.

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