1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: back with part two of our series on gray whales, 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: inspired by a first end encounter that Rob had recently, Right, 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah. I go into detail a bit more 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: about this in the first episode, but basically, the family 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: and I got to go down to Baja California, Mexico 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: to see gray whales in their their breeding lagoons and 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: it was it was magical. We got to observe them 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: in their their their most peaceful setting. Um and uh. 12 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: And so we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: about about that setting today, but also their their cycle 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: while they go through why they go through these migration 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: cycles and so forth. Yeah, So if you haven't heard 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: part one, you should probably go back check that one 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: out first. In that we explored the basics of gray whales, 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: describe some of their their major characteristics, but we also 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: talked about things like their relationship with barnacles. They have 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: some obligate barnacles that they are usually encrusted with. Today 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: we're going to focus some more on gray whale ecology, 22 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: such as how they fit into their environment, especially with 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: regard to predators. That's right, especially they're they're really their 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: primary predator, their main predator, and that is the orca, 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: the killer whale, I guess, their main predator other than humans. Yes, 26 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: aside from humans, and of course there have been fluctuations 27 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: in the risk posed by by humans to gray whales. 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: It certainly hasn't gone away. Our risk to gray whales 29 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: go beyond merely whaling them. It also applies to other 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: things we're doing to the environment. But yes, aside from us, 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: it's the orca that is the main I mean, it's 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: really the orc of that is, that is the threat 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: posed to gray whales that have helped shape what the 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: gray whale is. It's really difficult. It seems to overstress 35 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: the importance of this predator's role in the life cycle 36 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: of this whale in particular, but multiple whale species. So 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: we've discussed the orc on the show before, I believe 38 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: if they've come up, although I don't think we've ever 39 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: really done a deep dive on them. They are an 40 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: apex predator, They're an oceanic dolphin, and their range is 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: nothing short of the world's oceans. If you look at 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: maps depicting where killer whales can be found, and it's 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: basically like, well, is the ocean there, well, then that's 44 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: their range. Though that coverage has also been described as 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: a bit patchy. It doesn't mean like the oceans just 46 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: packed with them. And their conservation status is technically dated deficient, 47 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: so you know, there's still some unknowns about about their 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: their their cycles, and their whereabouts. But the orca itself 49 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: has no natural predators. It is the absolute top of 50 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: the food chain. Now. The orca has long been creatures 51 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: of reverence for many indigenous populations, especially those populations with 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: ties to the sea, and many of these understandings have 53 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: a more i would say, based on what I've been reading, 54 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: more nuanced visions of the orcas and understandings of the 55 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: orca compared to Western depictions that up until very recent times, 56 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: depictions and understandings of killer whale, we're very much focusing 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: in on their their savagery and also greatly exaggerating their 58 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: potential threat to humans because we'll touch on this later, 59 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: but there have been no documented cases of a killer 60 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: whale in the wild killing a human being, though there 61 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: have been quite a few cases in captivity, right, Yeah, 62 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: and uh, and that's that's, of course a sad story 63 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: in and of itself. Were probably not going to go 64 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: into that much, but I did a fair amount of 65 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: reading about that over the weekend as well. I watched 66 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: the trailer for Blackfish, and it made just the trailer 67 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: alone was a bit too much for me. I'm gonna 68 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: have to build up my courage to actually watch a Blackfish, 69 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: which is a documentary about captive orcas and some of 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: the very tragic events and deaths that have surrounded that practice. 71 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: But long before that was taking place, you had people 72 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: like plenty of the elder, our old friend plenty of 73 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: the elder chiming in on Orca. He describes them in 74 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: detail in one chapter of the Natural History, stating that 75 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: their form quote cannot be in any way adequately described, 76 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: but as an enormous mass of flesh armed with teeth. 77 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: You could say that about almost any mammal. Yeah, I don't. 78 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: It's a it's a strange description. I mean, we're we're fortunate, 79 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: I guess, and that we we have so many wonderful photographs, 80 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: so much great footage of Orca, and in many cases 81 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: as well, a lot of people get to glimpse them 82 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: in the wild. Uh, you know, from from a distance usually, 83 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: I guess, but um. But still we have a better 84 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: idea of like what a killer whale is, and we 85 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: don't have to just think, well, I know there was 86 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: flesh and I know there were teeth. I mean that 87 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 1: image conjures to mind just like uh, one of those 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: tumors that grows teeth. But it's just like floating in 89 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: the ocean. Yeah, it sounds like some sort of science 90 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: fiction monster. Um. But at the same time, this this 91 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: chapter is definitely worth checking out for plenty fans because 92 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: he goes into a little bit of detail though about 93 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: their their hostility toward the palana towards the whales. And this, 94 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: of course is very true or at least of of 95 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: some varieties of work in one variety in particular that 96 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss, and it's actually reflected in the 97 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: name killer whale, which the author and naturalist Mark Carwardine 98 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: in his book A Handbook of Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises 99 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: of the World. He points out that moniker killer whale 100 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: is derived from whale killer. Now The species name for 101 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: the orca is Orcanus orca, and this is an interesting 102 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: assembly as well, with the ancient Roman use of orcanus 103 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: meaning belonging to the kingdom of the dead, and orca 104 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: meaning either a kind of whale or a barrel. In 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: the Greek, I've seen it also translated as like barrel whale. 106 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: So orca may be the only true natural predator of 107 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: the gray whale, though large sharks like gray white sharks 108 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: have been known to attack calves and even adults. And 109 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: then you have things like the cookie cutter shark. That 110 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: makes a small shark species that may take bites out 111 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: of adults. But these are you know, I think you 112 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: might think of these more as nuisances than like true predators. 113 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: Though maybe I'm not being fair to the cookie cutter sharks. 114 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: I mean they are taking bites out of If something 115 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: was taking a bite out of me, I would consider 116 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: it probably a predator. Depends how big the bite is. 117 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: As the name implies, they're small bites and and they're 118 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: smaller I guess the bigger you are. But anyway, yeah, 119 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: the orca are the very to say the least, a 120 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: hell of a predator to have to deal with they are. 121 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: They are ruthless and cunning. Their employ various pack hunting 122 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: or I guess you might call it called pod hunting 123 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: attack strategies against their prey, and the list of possible 124 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: prey for a killer whale is pretty long. Um, They've 125 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: been observed to prey on great white sharks and the 126 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: waters off the coast of South Africa and New Zealand, 127 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: strategically targeting and removing the livers of these great whites, 128 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: like tucking into them right behind the pectoral find and 129 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: like removing the liver and then eating the liver from 130 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: the great white. But when it comes to orcas and 131 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: their diets, it gets intriguingly complicated. So orcas, as Carbadine describes, quote, 132 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: have a bewildering array of ecologically distinct forms called ecotypes. 133 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: And while they they're generally considered to be all of 134 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: the same species again Orcanus Orca, you might think of 135 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: them as genetically distinct orca cultures. This makes sense given 136 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: all of the different things I was reading about sort 137 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: of uh, subgroups of orcas specializing in different types of prey, like, 138 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: for example, while the orcas are one of the main 139 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: predators of gray whales. Not all orcas would show any 140 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: interest in a gray whale. That's right, um. And it 141 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: gets even crazy when you look at again genetically distinct 142 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: orca groups, these these ecotypes and then each they You 143 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: may have two different ecotypes inhabiting the same waters, but 144 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: they don't associate with each other. Each each ecotype has 145 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: its own behaviors, its own diet, its own social structure, 146 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: its own vocal signatures, its own distribution patterns. So it 147 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: gets really fascinating look at all the different examples. And 148 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into all the different ecotypes here, 149 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: but of note, for our discussion of the North Pacific, 150 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: there are two distinct ecotypes to consider. There's the resident 151 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: or fish eating killer whale, and then there's Biggs killer 152 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: whale also known as transient killer whales. But I think 153 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: Bigg's killer whale is the prefer tile. Okay, So I'd 154 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: imagine it's some of those resident or fish eating killer 155 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: whales that you know, gray whales might go right by 156 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: them and they're not going to mess with them. They're 157 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: not going to be interested. Yeah. As the name implies, 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: members of the fish eating ecotype eat mostly fish and 159 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: they usually ignore marine mammals, biggs killer whales though, yeah, 160 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: these are the true whale killers, and it's fascinating. They 161 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: live in smaller groups, usually just two to six. The 162 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: groupings for other varieties of like fish eating orca tend 163 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: to be larger. They're seemingly the biggs whales carbating rights 164 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: are not interested in eating fish at all, though, I 165 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: have to say in his book there is a photo 166 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: of one that's labeled as a is a big skiller 167 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: whale that's playing with a salmon in its mouth. So 168 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it's just playing with the salmon, 169 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: maybe it's eating it a little bit. I don't know. 170 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: Part of being such an intelligent apex predator is killer 171 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: whales have been observed to play with their food a bit. 172 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: The big skiller whale occasionally kill birds, but yes, as 173 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: the description implies, they mostly hunt whales, pinnipeds, and sea otters. 174 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: Now they are transient, they are kind of erratic, apparently 175 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: in their movements. I couldn't help but think of this 176 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: kind of like this roving band of bikers. Though I'm 177 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: over anthromorphizing here. And it's also worth noting that one 178 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: of the reasons that biggs is preferred over the name 179 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: transient is because apparently transient can be a little misleading, 180 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: so that their movements are erratic, but they do follow 181 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: the movements of their prey species, so they're not just 182 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: They're not just completely random. There. I guess we might 183 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: compare them to the bankers in um what is it 184 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: point break the mass bankrappers in the surfing movie. They're 185 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: kind of like maks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, they're 186 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: they may seem chaotic, but they have they have a code, 187 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: and there there are certain patterns they're following. Now, I 188 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: mentioned the genetic differences, carbon in mentions that the Biggs 189 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: orcas are actually the most genetically divergent out of all 190 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: these ecotypes, and there are actually strong arguments to be 191 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: made for speciation. Here, he writes that DNA evidence has 192 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: shown that Biggs killer whales began diverging some seven hundred 193 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: thousand to seven hundred and fifty thousand years ago, So 194 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: again the orca. It seems difficult to overstress how important 195 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: a role they play in the shape of modern whales, 196 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: the way that these whales have survived, because one of 197 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: the things you have to survive in the world, as 198 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: as a whale, or basically any organism that's to be 199 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: in the same waters as the killer whale, you have 200 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: to be able to survive the killer whale. And it's 201 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: a heck of a thing to have to survive because 202 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: I just kept thinking reading about them that it's like 203 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: they seem like the absolute perfect oceanic predator. You know, 204 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: like they're they're they're robust, they're fast, they're intelligent, they're 205 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: they're social. Um, you know, you can you can compare 206 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: them in some ways to something like a great white shark. 207 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: But great white sharks are for the most part solitary, 208 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: like they don't work together. They lack the uh the 209 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: intellect of of of of of an orca. Uh. The 210 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: orcas are just and then the orcas are also not 211 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: not to say that sharks are set in their ways, 212 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: but but like the orca have shown that they have 213 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: a have a real resiliency that they can they can change, 214 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: they can alter uh there, uh you know whatever have 215 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: if they're changes in available food sources, they may shift 216 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: in what they're eating, that sort of thing. And so 217 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: for just a few examples of how this has affected 218 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: the shape of modern whales, I was reading now their 219 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: book Whales their biology and behavior by Hammond at all, 220 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: and apparently their their threat factors into the audible world 221 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: of the marine environment. So fish eating orca produce loud 222 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: clicks that in many cases their prey can't hear. This 223 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: is certainly seems to be the case with salmon, for example, 224 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: and they use these clicks for echolocation. But the bigs 225 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: killer whale while they're they're feeding mostly or exclusively on 226 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: mammals that are acoustically sensitive, and so big killer whales 227 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: are quieter, and they use what they referred to in 228 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: this book as a cryptic echolocation strategy that employs fewer 229 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: clicks and irregular timing of said clicks. Oh so it's 230 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: harder to detect that you are being clicked at right right, 231 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: And the threat of the big killer whales is led 232 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: to led various whale species to adopt the use of 233 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: narrow band, high frequency clicks that orcas can't hear, So 234 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: pygmy sperm whales, for example, this though they sacrifice signal 235 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: range for stealth by making this change. Other whales, like 236 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: beat whales, only use their echolocation at great depths below 237 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: where the orcas hunt and there are also various anti 238 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: anti predator strategies that various whales use. I think we'll 239 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: end up discussing these in a bit. But basically, like 240 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: the orca posts such a threat, and such a complex 241 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: and intelligent threat, like every whale species on the menu 242 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: has had to adapt to that threat and come up 243 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: with tactics for survival. Yes, though, I think, as we 244 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: mentioned in the last episode, one thing that's very important 245 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: to stress is that for most whale species we're talking about, 246 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: there might be some a couple of exceptions, such as 247 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: like maybe some of the Minka whales, but for most 248 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: billen whale species, it is really only the young that 249 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: are directly threatened by orcas. Orca's rarely try i to 250 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: prey on healthy adults, and even even more rarely succeed 251 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: and preying on healthy adults, right, I mean, you will 252 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: find some accounts. I think there was a real I 253 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: was just reading this before we came in here there 254 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: was an account of what seemed to be a pack 255 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: of work as attacking an adult blue whale. But yes, 256 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: for the most part, this goes for I mean most 257 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: predators species. What are predators going after? They going after 258 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: the hardest thing possible to kill. Uh No, there's a there, 259 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: there's a you know, the various economic factors that have 260 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: to be taken into account. They want to go after 261 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: the easiest thing to get that will give them that 262 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: that that nutrient payoff. And in the case of whales, 263 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: the other calves are the best bet. They're smaller, they're weaker. 264 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: If they can separate them, if they can get to them, 265 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: if they have if they can tip the scales in 266 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: their favor, then that's what they're going to go for. 267 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: A paper that I'm going to talk about in a 268 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: minute cites an older bit of research from Rice and 269 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: Woolman published in the year nineteen seventy one, that included 270 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: a survey of the bodies of three hundred and sixteen 271 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: gray whales that I think we're off the coast of California, 272 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: and it found that of those whales, eighteen percent had 273 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: scars from previous orca attacks. And these would have been 274 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: orca attacks. I guess that the whales survived. That doesn't 275 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: necessarily tell you how many whales did not survive orca attacks. Oh, 276 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: that's this interesting. Carwodine writes that possibly every single gray 277 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: whale alive has possibly been I think the way where 278 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: it was in the mouth of a killer whale at 279 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: one point or another. And certainly you see you see 280 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: a lot of these rake like scars left by orca 281 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: teeth on their bodies. They're apparently attacked by the orca 282 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: at a greater rate and any other whale species and 283 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: as far as the young go. According to Carveden, orca 284 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: quote probably take up to thirty five percent of the 285 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: gray whale calf population annually and most of those attacks, 286 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: it is believed, occur on the migratory corridor. And we'll 287 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 1: talk more about gray whale migrations in a little bit 288 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: or possibly in the next episode if the series goes 289 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: to three parts. But yeah, there's like a migratory corridor 290 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: for the eastern Pacific gray whale where they go back 291 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: and forth between their northern feeding grounds up in the 292 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: Arctic regions in the summertime, and then in the colder 293 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: months they go south to areas like Baja California where 294 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: they have their breeding grounds, their calving grounds and these lagoons, 295 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: and it's during the travel back and forth that a 296 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: lot of these attacks are going to occur, that's right, Yeah, well, 297 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,479 Speaker 1: we'll get into the specifics of that in a bit, 298 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: but it but again, the orcas are cunning and they 299 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: are going to choose the egg zach right time, in 300 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: the exact right place to attack these these rather large 301 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: prey animals. But you know, briefly, you know again, why 302 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: is this migration taking place. What's because when you have 303 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: a threat like the orca as a mother whale, you 304 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: can't just give birth anywhere. You have to go where 305 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: the orcas cannot go or won't go. And that's where these, uh, 306 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: these lagoons come into play. Um like the Ojo de 307 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: Labre lagoon that I went to in Um near Guerrero Negro, 308 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: in Um in Baja California, Mexico, place that is shallow, 309 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: too shallow to favor certain killer whale hunting strategies, but 310 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: also not so shallow that the whales themselves cannot move 311 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: around in the waters. Now that being said, Um, I 312 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: happened across a paper this came out just last year 313 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: in October, and this was the title of this paper 314 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: was new Peril for gray Whale survival question mark predatory 315 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: orca is spotted in Baja Calvin Lagoon. It's a situation 316 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: where observers there had not seen orcas venturing into the lagoon, 317 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: but then there was a spotting of them, and it's 318 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like much came of this. It doesn't 319 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: seem like there was any real follow up coverage that 320 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: would indicate that the orcas came back and say, killed 321 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of calves or anything. I guess it was 322 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: maybe more like a scouting mission, like maybe the orcas 323 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: come in they kind of realize, Okay, well, these this 324 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: is not optimal for hunting, even though the things we 325 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: want to eat are here, and then they move around 326 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: and go back. But anyway, in this paper that the 327 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: author speaks with Stephen Schwartz, a primary researcher with the 328 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: Lagunas send Ignacio Ecosystem Science project down there, and the 329 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: way he describes that is, okay, you have the orca is. 330 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: They're engaging in this. They engage in this kind of 331 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: pack hunting behavior, but it's not two dimensional. It's three dimensional. 332 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: Especially when they're going up against dangerous prey like the 333 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: gray whale, something that can con pably kill them with 334 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: a single blow of its tail. They need to be 335 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: able to employ all of their strategies. They need to 336 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: be able to you know, come at it from below, 337 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: from the sides, etc. And we'll get into some of 338 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: their tactics here in a bit, but basically they can't 339 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: do that in the lagoon environment, right, and as surface 340 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: dwelling animals, where it's not intuitive for us to think 341 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: about physical conflict in this way. Really, you know, we're 342 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: usually thinking about physical conflicts taking place with something on 343 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: the same level as us on a plane, but in 344 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: this case, it would be something more like you know, 345 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: a space fight in like a Star Wars movie where 346 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: there's you know, there is multidirectional attack exactly. Yeah. So again, 347 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: the orcas are cunning, they're intelligent. They realize that this 348 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: is not the battlefield where they will have the advantage, 349 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: and they know that if they they waited out, there 350 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: will come a time when the battlefield does tip to 351 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: their advantage. Now, one thing we always try to do, 352 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: at least when we remember is, you know, it's like 353 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: when you're approaching the subject of predator prey conflicts from 354 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: the origin point of the prey animal. Like we we 355 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: started off talking about gray whales and then now we're 356 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: talking about orcas that can tend to kind of make 357 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: you want to, even if you normally have have some 358 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: protections against this, to unconsciously vilify the predator animal. Uh, 359 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, think like, oh, the orcas are so bad 360 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: because they're attacking the gray whales we've been thinking about 361 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 1: but of course, you know, we all that the orcas 362 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: are are beautiful, wonderful animals in their own way, and 363 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: they're also just trying to survive. That this is just 364 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: what their ecological niche is their predators. Yeah, that's right. 365 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: We can't think to think of it as as the 366 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: heroes versus villains and all of this, though I know 367 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: it's it's very tempting to do so, and I found 368 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: myself sort of fighting off that feeling, especially when when 369 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: observing the gray whales. But even in that that paper, 370 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: that Los Angeles Times paper, an I want to credit 371 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: the author on that. Suzanne rust is the author. In 372 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: speaking with the Swarts like sports basically, you know, it 373 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: says like, look, you know, this is just this is 374 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: how it is. Uh, you know, we're we're not just 375 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: looking out for the great whales here, We're also looking 376 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: out for the orca like they're they're It's part of 377 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: the natural cycle of things here. So we shouldn't Yeah, 378 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: we shouldn't fall into that line of thinking where oh no, 379 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: the the the the orca orcas or the enemy, and 380 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: the gray whales are are the only heroes of the 381 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: ecology story going on before us. That being said, let's 382 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: get into some of the dastardly ways the orcas attack 383 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: gray whales and other whale species. Not dastardly except in 384 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: the sense that every organism is, I guess, dastardly, and 385 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: it's in its quest for survival. But they're they're solving problems. 386 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: They're solving problems. Okay, So I wanted to return to 387 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: a paper that I brought up with a more narrow 388 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: focus in the previous episode, and it was a paper 389 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: called Fight or Flight Anti Predator Stress Rategies of Baleen Whales, 390 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: published in The Mammal Review in the year two thousand 391 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: and eight by John kb Ford and Randall are Reeves. Now, 392 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: you might remember in the last episode the context was 393 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: I was consulting this paper to explore whether the barnacle 394 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: incrustations on gray whales should be thought of purely as 395 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: either a parasitic type of infestation, where it's harming the whale, 396 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: or as a commensal infestation where you know, the barnacles 397 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: getting something out of it. It has a substrate that 398 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: brings it water flowing over it so it can filter 399 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: feed and it gets protection from predators, but the whale 400 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: is not really affected one way or another. That would 401 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: be a commensal relationship or and this was the hypothesis 402 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: put forward in this paper, there is actually a mutual 403 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: benefit to the whales that are encrusted with barnacles because 404 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: the thinking goes these incrustations with their you know, hard 405 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: calcium carbonate plates actually serve as a kind of weapon 406 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: or armor on the outside of the whale when it 407 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: is attacked by orcas. And there's some evidence for thinking 408 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: of it that way, but it's not certain, right, And 409 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: I think you mentioned too that like one possibility is 410 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: well a predator might think twice about biting part of 411 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: a whale that's encrusted with these hard barnacles, or it 412 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: might injure itself doing so. Right, So the quick additional 413 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: work effect. There's one variety that excels in attacking sharks. 414 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: And one of the ways that apparently this uh this 415 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: ecotype is often identified is that they'll it's it's rougher 416 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: food to have to depend on, and they'll often grind 417 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: their teeth down, like basically to the gum line. O time. 418 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: Yeah sou. So they're not about some of the killer 419 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: killer whales in general not above trading off dental health 420 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: for a sustaining meal if they have to. I'm gonna 421 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: be thinking about that all day. Just just kind of 422 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: gummy mouth whales. But anyway, I wanted to come back 423 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: to this paper to more broadly explore some of the 424 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: ideas it puts forward about the ways that whales, like 425 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: gray whales, that billen whales have had their bodies and 426 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: behavior shaped by predator pressures, a specifically pressure from orcas. 427 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: And this paper was exploring the different types of survival 428 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: strategies for different species of billen whales wind confronted with orcas, 429 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: and the authors proposed grouping them basically into two main classes. 430 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: One class of whales were the ones with flight strategies 431 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: and the others were fight strategies. The flight strategy is 432 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: mainly practiced by whales in the baling Optera genus, so 433 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: this would include the common minca whale, the Antarctic minca 434 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: the brutus whale that's spelled it looks like brye ryde, 435 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: but I think it's pronounced bruta, the say whale, the 436 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: fin whale, and the blue whale. And with all these strategies, 437 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: their reaction to pod of orcas is basically just speedy retreat. 438 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: They make a bee line out there. The direction doesn't 439 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: really seem to have any consistent relationship to the shoreline. 440 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: They just make a bee line away at top speed, 441 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: usually speeds between twenty and forty kilometers an hour. And 442 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: these are speeds that orcas I believe can typically match, 443 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: but only for a short time. They usually can't or 444 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: won't keep up with this speed for a long time, 445 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: so they just fall back and don't catch them and 446 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: a lot and we'll get into this, but a lot 447 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: of their tactics often revolve around sustained attacks. Yeah. However, 448 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: with these flight species, they can usually get away because 449 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: they just swim fast and they get out of there 450 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: and the orcas don't keep up the chase. But an 451 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: interesting thing is that the all these flight species they 452 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: just named, if they are overtaken by orcas, they usually 453 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: are not able to put up much resistance at all. 454 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: And they just sort of like submit to death. That 455 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: might be overstating it, but they do not really have 456 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: much close fighting capacity. On the other hand, you've got 457 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: the fight strategy. And this has been observed in other 458 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: billen whales such as the Southern right whale, the North 459 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: Atlantic right whale, the bowhead, the humpback, and the gray whale, 460 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: the ones we're focusing on in this series. And they 461 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: say the authors here also say that the North Pacific 462 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: right whale probably fits in this group too, but there 463 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: haven't been enough documented cases of their encounters with orcas 464 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: to say for sure. But the fight group encompasses a 465 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: more diverse set of tactics, basically everything except for high 466 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: speed one directional swimming away. So what do the fight 467 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 1: strategies include? One, Rob, I think you alluded to this 468 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: a little bit earlier, but we can get in more 469 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: detail now. One is group formations. When in sufficient numbers, 470 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: some fight strategy whales respond to orca harassment by grouping 471 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: together to form defensive formations, for example, by placing calves 472 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: in the center of a sort of shape where they're 473 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: encircled by adults. One example the authors give is something 474 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: called the rosette which is a circular formation with the 475 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: heads of the adults will make a sort of flower 476 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: pedal shape and they will put their heads in the 477 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: middle around the calf and then have their tail flukes 478 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: pointing out, which if you have seen the mighty slap 479 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: of a gray whales tail fluke, or not just gray whale, 480 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: any of these, like a humpback's tail fluke, you can 481 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: imagine why that might be threatening to an approaching orca. 482 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: And an important thing to point out is that this 483 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: type of thing, these group formations, are not only observed 484 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: in the baleen whales we're talking about in this study. 485 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: Some toothed whales, for example, sperm whales have been observed 486 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: to do something similar when harassed by orcas. Of course, 487 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: sperm whales are predators, but they tend to prey on 488 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: things like, you know, squids and stuff, and their calves 489 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: are also sometimes attacked by orcas. Yeah, I've seen this 490 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: defensive formation that I guess we could kind of compare 491 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: to like circling the wagons, but I've seen it referred 492 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: to as the marguerite formation in sperm whales, and it's 493 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: something that sadly, whalers would sometimes take advantage of they 494 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: realize that if you had an injured whale, it would 495 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: like basically draw in this defensive formation of additional whales 496 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: which you could then also kill. Yeah, and this fact 497 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: of some whales coming to the aid of other whales 498 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: is interesting, Like it's kind of heartwarming. The author has 499 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: mentioned southern right whales and humpbacks having been observed to 500 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: join in with single whales or groups that are under 501 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: attacked by orcas, almost to help provide group defense. Now, 502 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: we alluded to this a minute ago with the tail 503 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: flukes pointing out outward, but some of the fight strategies 504 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: of these whales are just physical blows. Like baleen whales 505 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: will sometimes lash out and strike at orcas, most often 506 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: with either pectoral flippers or with the flukes with the tail. 507 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: And the authors also say that quote right whales and 508 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: humpback whales occasionally also lunge or swing their heads at attackers. 509 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: So it seems like throughout this paper the humpbacks really 510 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: seem like the fightiest of the fight whales, like they 511 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: will really put up a fight. But all of these 512 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: whales are are powerful and can can swing a fluke 513 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: or a flipper. Yeah, it makes sense. I guess that 514 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: the gray whales or maybe not engaging and head based 515 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: combat so much because their heads are just generally smaller 516 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: compared to something like a humpback whale's head. But they're 517 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: certainly they certainly use the flippers and the flukes. In fact, 518 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: one of the things in Baja California that the guides mentioned, 519 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: they're like, do not, under any circumstances attempt to touch 520 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: flippers or flukes, because those are the weapons of the whale. 521 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: Um you know, the only thing you're touching, and if 522 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: the whale is curious and permitting it, as you're touching 523 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: basically the head region. Yes, and while all these fight 524 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: whales can put up a fight like they can deliver 525 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: a mighty smack with the tails or with the flippers, 526 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: it seems consistent that the gray whales are thought of 527 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: as some of the least inclined to deliver a blow 528 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: in defense and instead practice some other interesting defensive strategies 529 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: more often. Yes, this is fascinating, So let's get to 530 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: what some of these other strategies are. The authors one 531 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: of them is environmental refuge. The authors right that all 532 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: of the fight strategy whales except perhaps humpbacks try to 533 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: seek refuge in the physical environment for defense, and gray 534 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: whales are singled out as the best example of this 535 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: of refuge seeking. When threatened, they head for shallow waters. 536 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: That's kind of interesting. If you don't read any further, 537 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: you might really wonder why that would be. That would 538 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: I would almost imagine like, oh, whale would wouldn't wall 539 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: feel kind of cornered in shallow waters. But it turns 540 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: out this is helpful for a number of reasons. One, 541 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: shallow waters provide potential hiding places, such as in kelp 542 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: beds like forests of seaweed, or in breaking surf, and 543 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 1: in both of these cases, these are kind of like 544 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: blinds for whales. It's a place where it's harder for 545 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: orcas to locate and detect them. This also makes sense 546 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: this distinction when you think about say, like the humpback 547 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: whale is a whale that its range includes you know, 548 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: far open waters. But again, as we've discussed with the 549 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: gray whale, these are whales that generally don't stray too 550 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: far from the shoreline from the edge of the continent, 551 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: so like this is there they really have a home 552 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: turf advantage here, Yes, and Another thing the authors point 553 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: out is that the gray whales can make themselves even 554 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: more invisible when hiding in shallow water through a breathing 555 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: technique known as snorkeling, where essentially they expose as little 556 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: of their body as possible above the surface to breathe. 557 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: Basically only the blowholes are exposed. Now, why would this 558 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: make them harder to find? The researchers suggest it may 559 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: be because this is somehow a quieter way to breathe 560 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: than their normal breathing movements and orca's hunt in part 561 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: by sound. But this part is really important. In addition 562 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: to providing hiding places like kelp forests and breaking surf, 563 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: shallow water also protects gray whales by depriving orcas of 564 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: room to stage their preferred attacks. So the predators in 565 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,239 Speaker 1: shallow water simply cannot maneuver the way they need to 566 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: to do the attacks they want, and these attacks would 567 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: include like ramming the calves to try to separate them 568 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: from adults. Yeah, it's worth noting here that that orcas 569 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: are certainly susceptible to beaching. Granted, there are of course 570 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: famous examples of self beaching attacks by orcas against against 571 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: creatures you know, just just on the shore. Though this, 572 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: it's worth noting, seems to be a learned tactic and 573 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: not an instinctual one. So it takes even these orca 574 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: groups that practice self beaching as a hunting tactic, it 575 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: takes them a long time to learn it and do 576 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: it properly. Yes, and it seems, at least certainly for 577 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: the kinds of orcas that prey on whales, the shallows 578 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: are just not where they're comfortable that it is not 579 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: where they have room to make the moves that they 580 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: need to make, usually to get a calf away from 581 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: its mother and kill it right right. So for this reason, 582 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: the authors say that in fact, orca's usually abandon an 583 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: attack if the prey is able to make it to 584 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: the shallows. So the gray whale gets into the shallows. 585 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: The orcas, it's not like they usually will keep trying 586 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: and fail. They're not even going to follow them there. 587 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: They just give up. Now. I think another point that 588 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: we might want to remember is that it seems to 589 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: me a retreat to the shallows is not without risks. 590 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: You might think, well, why would that involve risks? But 591 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: the authors here mentioned quote fight species that retreat into 592 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: shallow water would need good maneuverability to negotiate obstacles and 593 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: prevent accidental stranding. So I mean stranding is a real 594 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: threat when you're a whale, and a whale that goes 595 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: into the shallows to hide, I think that could be 596 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: thought of as somewhat analogous, not completely, but somewhat analogous 597 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: to a land animal trying to hide from our predator 598 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: by going into the surf in the ocean, like there 599 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: is a chance you get washed out and drown. Yeah, yeah, 600 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: Now it does seem though the grays are quite good 601 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: at navigating the shallows. That seems to be the case 602 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: based on the materials we've been looking at here. But 603 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: again just going back to my observation of them in Mexico, 604 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: the lagoon was again reasonably shallow, you know, deep enough 605 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: that the whales can maneuver easily in there and even 606 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: move around at some rather intense beats when because there 607 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: again there was the calving. There was there there mothers 608 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: and babies, but there was also mating going on, and 609 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: the mating gets a lot more frenzied. H they'll do 610 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: this thing too, that's called, i think sometimes referred to 611 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: as a freight training. I think it's the term where 612 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: they're like just a group of whales will just start 613 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: zooming through the water. And their speeds to me were 614 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: quite impressive, but but still like this is a lagoon, 615 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: the tides coming in and out. There were some fairly 616 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: drastic changes um based on the tides. So yeah, it 617 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: seemed to me like the grays really knew what they 618 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: were doing. It makes sense again because the gray whales 619 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: are a species of whale that don't ever really go 620 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 1: too far from the shore and the grand scheme of things, 621 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: and they're they're there. The way they feed is to 622 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: go down to the bottom, so they're they're tied to 623 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: kind of like the edges, the hard and soft edges 624 00:36:51,920 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: of their oceanic environment. All right, So next thing we've 625 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: talked about group formations, physical blows, environmental refuge. The next 626 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: thing I want to mention is defensive maneuvers. So gray 627 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: whales are less inclined to physically fight by striking with 628 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: flukes or flippers, though they will certainly do that in 629 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: cases when defending calves. They just do it less than 630 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: other species such as like humpback whales. But the authors 631 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 1: write quote Instead, they often roll at the surface so 632 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: that their dorsal surface rather than their ventral surface, meaning 633 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: the back instead of the belly, is exposed to attack 634 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: from below. Killer whales often debilitate and kill baleen whales 635 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: by ramming forcefully and repeatedly into the ventral sides of 636 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: their prey. Thus, rolling upside down may protect the vulnerable 637 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: underside from attack. And I've actually watched some documentary footage 638 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: of exactly this and the next thing I'm about to 639 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 1: mention happening when orcas are swimming up on a gray 640 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: whale adult that she will just roll back and expose 641 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: her belly up above the water and have her back 642 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: down below. I guess the back is much more protected 643 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: from these striking attacks by the orcas. Again, just pure 644 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: observation on my part, but some of the whales that 645 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: would come up to the boat would do this, They 646 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,479 Speaker 1: would roll onto their under their backs, And I didn't 647 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: think about it at a time because at the time 648 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: it's like they're kind of like big dogs. It's almost 649 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: like they want me to scratch their belly in my arm. Again, 650 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: we're like, you know, twenty feet long, maybe, but but yeah, 651 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: like this is maybe they're kind of rehearsing behaviors as well. 652 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. This next thing is really interesting. This 653 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: is something gray whale mothers apparently do when escorting calves. 654 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: Not only do they roll over on their backs at 655 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: the surface of the water to keep the more vulnerable 656 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: ventral side or the belly up above the waterline, they 657 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: will sometimes literally lift their calves out of the water 658 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: up on their bellies, placing them out of reach of 659 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: the orcas. So the orcas are trying to ram the 660 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: calf and injure it and get it away from the mother, 661 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: so the mother will flip her more protected back underneath 662 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: and get the baby up on like above the water, 663 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: on top of her. Fascinating. Yeah, this reminds me again 664 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: like one of the behaviors you see from the babies 665 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: eventually in the lagoon is that they'll start, when they're 666 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: strong enough, they'll start breaching. They'll start kind of like 667 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: jumping out of the water, not just sticking parts part 668 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: of their head up, but actually like jumping most of 669 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: the way out of the water, if not all the 670 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: way out of the water. And it's thought that this 671 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: may also be rehearsals for defensive maneuvers as the mother 672 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: and calf eventually move out of this protected lagoon and 673 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: into rather dangerous domains of the orcas, right, And so 674 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: you can see how that could be that kind of 675 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: maneuvering practice could be useful in both ways for these 676 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: purely def inns of maneuvers, where like the calf is 677 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: trying to get up on its mother's belly to get away, 678 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: or for actual attacks if they're trying to slam down 679 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: on the orca or something. Yeah, because these babies again, 680 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: these are these are these are big babies. Now. One 681 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: thing explored in this paper that caught my attention is 682 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: the relationship between these different fight versus flight strategies and 683 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: how that manifests as morphological differences differences in the body 684 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: shapes of these different types of whales. So the authors 685 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 1: write that flight whales the ones that just escape as 686 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: fast as they can are you might not be surprised 687 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: to learn more streamlined for fast movement with elongated forms, 688 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: typically smaller flippers to reduce drag while swimming, and what 689 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 1: they call high aspect ratio flukes, which they say this 690 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: is a quote a measure of surface area relative to 691 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: fluke length for propulsive efficiency and high speed. So you 692 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: can look up pictures of this if you want. But these, 693 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: these flight whales will tend to have just less chunky 694 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: looking flukes, whereas the fight whales have kind of, i 695 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: don't know, more rounded, thicker flukes that just have more 696 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: surface area. Well, looking at this illustration you provide, it's 697 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: like if you turn the fluke on its side and 698 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: assume that it is a mustache, you're more the closer 699 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: you are to a pencil thin mustache. Well, then yeah, 700 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: that's going to be your flight your fight tho is 701 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: going to be your bushear mustache. That that is a 702 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 1: good comparison. Yeah, So flight whales are they're specializing for speed. 703 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: Fight whales, on the other hand, are not specialized for 704 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: speed but for maneuverability. And this is important to think about. 705 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily so much for just being able 706 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: to like hit and deliver a blow with the tail 707 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: or the flipper, though that is part of it, especially 708 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: for some of these species, but it's for maneuverability. And 709 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: what does that mean. Essentially, it means being able to 710 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: turn on a dime. The fight whales have larger and 711 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: longer flippers and larger fluke surfaces relative to their body size. 712 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: And what this allows them to do is turn quickly 713 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: in tight spaces and change which direction they're facing, even 714 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: if they don't have any forward momentum, so they can 715 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: kind of like turn quickly at a near stand still. 716 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: And I was trying to think about a good analogy here. 717 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,959 Speaker 1: It seems like the difference would be between like the 718 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: turning movement capabilities of an airplane versus a helicopter. Your 719 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: fight whales are going to be more like a helicopter 720 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: and your flight whales are going to be more like 721 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: an airplane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's that's a 722 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: solid comparison. Of course, being able to turn around quickly 723 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: is a is a clear advantage if you are trying 724 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: to defend yourself or especially to defend your young against 725 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: against killer whales, because you need to be able to 726 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: orient your body so that the more defensible part of it, 727 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: or the threatening part of it is face the nearest 728 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: killer whale quickly. And this also allows whales such as 729 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: gray whales to do that like rolling at the surface. 730 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: And again we might think like where does this give 731 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: the whale the biggest advantage? Again, it comes down to 732 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: shallower waters where they can turn on a dime, but 733 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: the killer whales cannot employ their three D hunting tactics. 734 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how how far we should 735 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: go with the helicopter versus airplane, but it's like it's 736 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: one thing to imagine say fighter jet versus attack helicopter, 737 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: just you know, out in the open sky, but now 738 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: imagine that that imagine combat going down like in a 739 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: city scape, in a tunnel or something. Yeah. I've got 740 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: one last thing from this paper I want to add, 741 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 1: which I think should give a little bit of emotional 742 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: payoff to learning all this stuff about the anti predator 743 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: strategies of whales. And that is the though, of course, 744 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, the both the predator and the prey animal. 745 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: It's not like we begrudge either one. They both have 746 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: a right to live and the predators do need to 747 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: hunt in order to survive. But it turns out most 748 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 1: of the time these anti predator strategies are successful, Like 749 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: in most of these encounters between orcas and gray whales, 750 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 1: the orcas are not successful in killing one of the whales, 751 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: not just gray whales, but but all of the whales. 752 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 1: I think talked about in this paper. It's just that 753 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: the anti predator strategies are pretty effective. The flight whales 754 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: they swim fast and they usually get away, and the 755 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: fight whales are usually able to repel or avoid an 756 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: orca attack. Yeah. Basically it's like, what whatever is necessary 757 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: to price yourself out of being eaten? Can you make 758 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: yourself just too costly of a prey target for the predator? Um? 759 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: And uh and yeah, you just have to sort of 760 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: cross that line. And also always thinking about this, it 761 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: always reminds me of that part and Butch casting the 762 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: Sundance Kit about you know, would you would you make 763 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 1: that jump if you didn't have to m There's only 764 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: so much that the predator is going to do because 765 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: ultimately there are there are other whales in the sea. Yeah. 766 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: All right, Well, on that note, we're gonna go ahead 767 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: and close it up for this episode. We'll be back 768 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: though in one final episode on gray whales and also 769 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,759 Speaker 1: essentially on orcas as well. Just a reminder that stuff 770 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: to blow your mind. It is a science podcast with 771 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: core episodes publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays, we 772 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: do listener mail episodes. On Wednesdays, we do a short 773 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 1: form artifact or monster Fact episode, and on Fridays we 774 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a 775 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema. I forgot the name 776 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,479 Speaker 1: mentioned the name of the of the Friday episodes huge 777 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: thanks to our audio producer JJ Pauseway. If you would 778 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 779 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 780 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 781 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 782 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. It's production of iHeartRadio. For 783 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, This's the iHeartRadio app, 784 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.