WEBVTT - Of Ice and Men, with Fred Hogge 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.280 My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:14.200 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.720 your Mind. This is Robert Lamb and I have an 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.400 exciting interview for you today. I'm gonna be talking with 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.239 Fred Hogg, author of the new book of Ice and Men, 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:28.840 How We've Used Cold to Transform Humanity. Uh. Covers everything 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:34.000 from cocktail ice to the ancient history of ice houses. Uh. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.559 It gets into so many wonderful areas. So I hope 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.000 you enjoyed this interview. This chat I had with Fred 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:42.440 a tremendous amount of fun, just as the book is 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.960 a tremendous amount of fun. Hi. Fred, thanks for coming 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.040 on the show. Thank you very much for having me. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.760 It's really really pleasure to be here. Excellent. Yeah, the 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.040 book is is so much fun. I just read it 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.000 the other day. Of Ice and Men, How We've Used 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:01.720 Cold to Transform Humanity wonder for inside ful and surprising 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.600 look and humanity's history with ice. Humanity's propensity to take 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.200 ice for granted is a recurring theme in your book, 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.880 and I just was wondering were you prepared for just 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.839 how often it has been taken for granted in recorded history. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.920 That's a really, really interesting question, um. And to one 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.600 degree I was because having sort of started out in 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:29.360 my career as an ancient historian, one finds oneself very 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.959 limited by what people not just what people choose to 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.559 write about, but what survives. UM. So when you're dealing 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.080 with with with the ancient world, it's not just that 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.600 people have the topics that they think are interesting and 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.119 that they care about, but we also have to deal 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:48.440 with this whole big problem of textual transmission, and a 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.160 number of books, the fast number of books and just 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.320 do not come down to us from the ancient world, 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:56.720 and some of the ones that do come down by 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.680 very very um strange ways. If I were member correctly, 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:05.240 Catullus poetry was found under a barrel in the fourteenth century, UM, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.800 and that was the only copy that came through somehow. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.840 And it's it's wonderful stuff. But when it comes to 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:16.640 stuff like like ice and functional things, it requires on 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.920 the one hand, an ancient writer to be interested, on 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.560 the other hand, for it to be copied. So, for example, 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.040 we know an enormous amount about Aqueduct because a book 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.960 by a guy called Frontinus survives. If it hadn't, we 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.200 would just have the archaeology. But as it is, we 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.919 have the book and we know how they work with ice. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.440 I knew that the sources would be will be slim 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.679 for the ancient stuff, and that's fair enough. And you 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:44.600 spend a lot of time trawling around just trying to 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:49.160 find a glimpse and mentioned as something here or there, 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.120 but you know it's it's um. But that's part of 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.760 the challenge. That's part of what makes it fun. Now, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.440 this is probably a question of being asked a lot, 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.959 but just in general, how did you come to write 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:06.120 a book about ice? Um? Well, basically what happened was 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.400 I I hadn't really thought about it as a topic 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.920 to write about. And my wife's a cookery writer and 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.240 cookery teacher and she was doing a class back when 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:16.880 we lived in London, and she asked me to help 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.880 out and kind and make some cocktails for the for 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:21.960 the customers. And as I was shaking up these drinks, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.000 I happened to remark that if you don't have ice, 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:30.400 you can't really have a cocktail. And one of the 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.960 punters said, prove it um. And basically that's what I've 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.640 set out to try and do. And as soon as 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.280 I started to delving into it, I realized what an 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:48.080 extraordinary rich um seem of information it is because it 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.400 is that the big sort of unsung hero and monster 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:57.160 of modern life, and it's changing us. I I I 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.560 think it's quite profound. Um. I was reading what was 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.320 it last week? I think that the eight billion person 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.960 has just been born on planet Earth. This is in 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:14.560 those small parts down two. The extraordinary benefits that ice 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:19.839 have brought humanity, both in terms of our nutrition, in 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.080 terms of medicine, in terms of so many things, is 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:29.960 absolutely supercharged the species. It's from from now, the species 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.400 has exploded. And it is entirely down to the fact 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.080 that we are able to feed ourselves so much better 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.040 because the refrigeration, because of cool chains, because of all 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.400 of the benefits that ice has brought us. And what 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.359 burden does that place upon the rest of the system. 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.120 And I think that's the big question. Yeah. You you 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:52.320 you returned to the idea of multiple times in the 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.640 book that that ice is inherently linked to civilization, and 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.320 and you you frequently invoked the film AdPT of the 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.600 Mosquito Coast. Can you remind our listeners of this film? 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.560 And I suppose of the book and it's the use 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.560 of ice. I have to confess I have never read 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.000 the book. I've only ever seen the movie, which is 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.800 a terrible, terrible admission. I know pulled through as a 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.640 wonderful writer, but I haven't read it. But in the 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.760 movie version, directed by the wonderful Australian director Peter Weir, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.920 the lead character Alie Fox, as played by Harrison Ford, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:32.760 has this very catching line of ice is civilization and 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.760 then sets out into the rainforests of Believe to build 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.200 an ice machine to bring ice to the people. That 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.800 idea has always struck with me. And I first saw 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.080 that film. Gosh, this dates me now. I saw that 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:48.760 film on general release, so gosh, that was what eighty six, 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:50.320 As you said, I think came at eighty seven in 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.839 the UK because we were often at that point a 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:57.760 little bit behind the United States. But yes, and I 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.360 think I think that he hasn't absolute point. Ice has 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.560 always been there from the very beginning of the civilization. 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:10.919 The ancient Sumerians, the very first civilized society, had ice, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.080 which is something that is quite baffling to grasp, given 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:17.400 as in the City of a Rook, the first city 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.160 is in the deserts of southern ire K, and you know, 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.719 were you to visit it today, you'd find this barren, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:31.760 wind swept, desolate landscape. And it's very hard to imagine 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.960 a that it was once a blossoming, fertile place and 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.839 b that they could make ice there and it's baking 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.080 its forty five degrees in the shade. But ice was there. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.160 Ice was inherent in their lives. We don't know how 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.720 they use it. We just know that it was there, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.560 which is, as ever, often one of the big problems 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.480 with archaeological sources. They'll tell you a thing that they 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:59.240 won't give you a context. But but sorry, I'm rabbiting on. 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.520 I'm so rob No, no, this is wonderful. Yeah, because 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.279 that was what I'm gonna ask about. Next was the 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.920 the ancient Sumerian ice houses, because this was this really 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.280 blew me away, just imagining me away too, I've got 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.160 to be honest. Yeah, So is it thought that the 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.960 ancient Sumerians invented ice house technology or or where do 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.400 we just like I was saying, you know, we have 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.800 in the year thirteen of the reign of Shulgi, they 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.960 built an ice house. That's what the tablet tells us 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:33.760 Um and that's it. I'm not a Sumerian expert at all. 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:35.800 I I had to read up on quite a lot 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.400 of stuff, and I still don't fully understand it. But 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.520 when we look at those kind of cuneve form tablets 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.800 from the ancient Middle and Near East, particularly as we 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.560 get into the next section of where ice reas its 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:53.320 head and a kingdom called Marii, which is was situated 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:58.760 in eastern Syria around about like the fifteen four hundred 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.200 BC dame mentioned in ice House in their tablets. But 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.480 when we get to that era, what we do have 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:10.160 as an extraordinary level of correspondence written between the great 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.800 kingdoms of the Middle and Near East, from the hit 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.720 Sides to the Assyrians, to the Marii to the Egyptians, 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:21.360 and they're they're all broadly in Assyrium and and and 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.680 we have some of these archives, the one in mari 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.080 was discovered in the thirties. Is there a huge insight 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.720 into how that world operated and how it worked. And 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.640 these kings would you know, right to each other, you know, 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:41.920 to the great king of Assyria, my brother, how how 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:46.640 you're doing, or or that kind of thing. But but 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:52.480 again the ice House and Marii is mentioned obliquely. We 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:57.200 know that it was there. We we don't know if 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.120 there was only one or if there were many in 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.959 their various and cities, but we know they had access 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.640 to ice. And we know again, um, it was a 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.320 luxury ice. It wasn't something that was there for everybody. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.280 It was a prestige product. And you you mentioned these 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.880 various other ice houses and ice pits that pop up 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.640 in other civilizations. Does it does it seem like this 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.400 is a case of cultural transmission or it's just kind 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.240 of like independent inventions from people who or people or 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.960 kingdoms that are in areas where they have access to 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.599 snow and they are figuring out ways to keep that 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.280 snow around. You have to have access, I mean when 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.439 we when we look at the Persian ice houses or 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:50.119 yacht coals, these are specially designed structures that UM operates 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:55.200 on evaporative cooling and they in those kind of desert 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.719 environments where the temperature drops incredibly fast and UM as 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.680 the s and goes down, you can create conditions in 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.680 a controlled space where you can freeze things. So that 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.160 is a technology specific to their environment. And we're talking 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.880 seven b C five b C or thereabouts. When you 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:19.760 start looking at ancient Greece or civilizations like that. They 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:24.040 have access to ice from mountains. They will bring the 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.240 snow down UM and we and we see this technology 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:33.560 so in Italy, UM and in Spain into the early 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.200 modern era. And it doesn't really change a whole lot. 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:42.720 You some poor bloke generally a bloke has to carry 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:44.960 the snow down and a thing on his back. You 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.920 pack it down hard into the ground into a pit 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:53.880 that's insulated with branches and then covered and then sold. 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.360 And you could do this. Um. You can do this 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.400 in the Lebanon because you can get the um the 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.959 ice from the mountains at the top of the beck 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:05.800 Up Valley. You can do it in Greece. You can 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.360 do it in Italy. The Apennines was the big source 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.160 of ice for Rome. You can do it in Sudden 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.079 Spain as host cities. In Seville you still have mountains 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.959 quite close by where you shouldn where you can get 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.199 the ice from. But if you don't have that access, 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.840 it's not going to happen. And India is quite an 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.360 interesting one because because because again they were able to 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.920 do an evaporative cooling technique with special ponds and as 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.679 the the cool, they would come off the mountains, they 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.080 could place clay pots out on the walls, would freeze, 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.840 and they would have ice for the next day. But again, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:44.559 this is a short lived resource. It's not going to 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.200 to be around for very long, and therefore is the 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.400 preserve of the wealthy for for really up until the 0:11:51.480 --> 0:12:01.480 nineteenth century. Now you get into get into this area 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.520 where there there, there there is. There are more mentions 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.200 of of ice, and a one that I thought was 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.520 particularly interesting. You mentioned first century CE Roman philosopher Seneca. 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.320 For I sold in Roman markets. Do we do we 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.439 know why he disapproved? I think we don't know. I 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.520 I don't know why he does. It was Seneca. From 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.640 everything that I know, I what little I know of Seneca, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:31.360 he was a fairly sniffy old chap he was. He Yes, 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.400 he was a very proper fellow, was our Seneca. Um, 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.400 it was probably why Nero killed him. Great philosopher, great writer, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:44.559 really really really disgusting playwright in terms of the amount 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.520 of blood and gore in his plays. Oh my God, 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.880 in his version of Medea, you actually see the babies 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.560 being thrown from the battlements on stage. I mean, Seneca's 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.640 plays are mental and Shakespeare was a very big fan 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.320 of Naka's playwriting, which might explain explain all the Claret 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:08.439 and Gore and Coriolanus. But he was. Yeah, Seneca Shakespeare 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:14.400 was a big fan of Seneca's dramaturgy. Uh, he's he does, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.440 he does like to you know him that you know 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:19.559 juvenile as well. There there are a bunch of those 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:21.640 guys around that first century who do like to have 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.840 quite snaughty opinions about how awful the modern world is, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.600 which I suppose is something that hasn't really changed. But yes, 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.600 he was not a fan of ice. He thought ice 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.240 was it was bad for people, and that they shouldn't 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.960 be doing it, which is an idea that that would 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.439 prevail for quite a long time, for at least another 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.440 sort of five six years after his time. There's a 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.360 Spanish doctor Menards who's I think I mentioned the book 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.760 who's writes about how bad ice can be for you. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.520 There's an enormous amount of inco and paper wasted on 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.240 medical literature saying that ice is a bad thing in 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.199 the fifty and sixteen centuries. Yeah. This. I was intrigued 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:04.920 by this the more I read in the book, too, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.000 because initially I was also reminded of some traditions I 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.320 think in like Chinese traditional medicine, the idea that one 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:16.280 should drink hot water as opposed to child water. But 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:20.520 then later on in the book you also mentioned issues 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:25.360 concerning the potential contamination of snow with dirt that later 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.840 the idea that you could you could have actual outbreaks 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.400 due to contamination of water ice. A lot of them 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.120 were about the Roman stuff, and early on a lot 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.640 of that ice that was sold in in those markets 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.240 in ancient grease ancient rooms actually snow compacted snow, and 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:53.320 that contains inherently particles of dirt and mud and and bits. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.400 Where the market evolves into thanks to a brilliant Bostonian 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.920 guy called for Edric Tudor, is the export of hand 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.440 cut ice from lakes in New England. And these are 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.760 blocks of solid ice, and solid ice is very much 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:16.560 more pure than compacted snow. And they were shipping this 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.760 all around the world from Tudor start of an eighteen 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.680 o six and finally really got it figured out in 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.560 the eighteen twenties after the War of eighteen twelve. Was 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.920 you know that kind of put the kibosh on him 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:36.840 for a while, Um, but as the demand increases, you 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.800 have two problems. The first is you want to make 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.480 more ice faster for your stores. So they would do 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.840 this thing which was called sinking the well, whereby having 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:50.880 cut a bunch of ice out, they would also drill 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.080 extra holes in the top of a pond or lake 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:55.800 so that the water would well up and refreeze. But 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.600 what that would do, what it would catch your footprints 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.880 between in the original layer that you're walking on in 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:03.800 the water that welld up, so there would be dirt 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:09.000 trapped within the ice, which was not exactly pleasing to 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.720 the customer. But the bigger problem, as you point out, 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:18.400 as time goes on, is pollution, and the uptaker ice 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:26.760 usage runs parallel alongside with the industrial revolution and the 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:33.600 various pourings of industrial waste human waste into the waterways 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.680 which were then being harvested for ice. And then one 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.480 of the most awful cases there was a mental hospital 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.440 and upstate New York that used to cut its ice 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:48.440 from the river downstream of where they're effluent pipe ran 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.600 in and a number of people died. And this is 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.040 kind of the beginning of the end for natural ice 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.480 as a commercial proposition. Now now, thus far far and 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.640 a lot of students are probably you know, we're talking 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.639 about the use of this ice and hello listeners. Uses 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:06.760 kind of the kind of a novelty and I know, 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.959 I'm I'm imagining drinks with ice in them, drinks with 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.000 bits of snow in them, and you you get into 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.200 this this this is a really fun part of the 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.800 book to talking about, like a Florentine wine a chilling 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.240 back in the thirteen so I was thinking about that 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.040 a lot. But then of course another important ice treat 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.080 comes up, and then of course his ice cream. Um yes, 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.199 what's the where do we seem to find like the 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.560 oldest possible evidence of ice cream in the world. There's 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.080 a lot of mythology wrap top with ice cream. Um 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.919 so stories tell us that ice cream was invented in 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:50.000 China and that it was the privilege and unique dessert 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.840 of the Imperial court and nobody else could have it. 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.679 And then the apographer goes on to say that Marco 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.600 Polo brought the recipe back to Italy. The absolutely the latter, 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:06.480 it is absolutely rot Whether the Chinese we're eating ice 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.760 cream as opposed to have cooled, chilled things, that's kind 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.800 of hard to pin down. But ice cream in the 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:19.520 European context doesn't happen until the seventeenth century. There's a 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.960 lovely sort of piece of mythology that Catherine de Medici, 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.359 when she was married to the Dauphin of France, brought 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.840 the recipe and all kinds of other recipes with her 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.520 into France and re transformed French cooking. But this is 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:39.120 absolutely rot For one reason, she was thirteen fourteen and 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:43.119 probably not widely interesting recipes at the time um and 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.600 would have been stripped of all things Italian at the border. 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.840 For another, the science of how do you make cream 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:55.080 freeze was not known in Europe at that point, although 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:56.639 it was known in other parts of the world, and 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.240 it crops up. There's a twelfth century Indian Treaties which 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.119 describes how to do it, and it basically involves making 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.960 a brine solution within too within which to freeze your 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.439 your cream. The thing is, cream freezes about half a 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:16.440 degree lower than water, so even if you just put 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.280 it in ice, you're just gonna end up with cold cream. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:20.680 So you've got to find a way to make the 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.480 chilling scenario even colder, and the best way to do 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.000 that is to add a shed load of salt to it. 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.120 Brian freezes at a much lower temperature, so you can 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.320 get the surrounding liquid down to about minus sixteen celsius 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.200 and then you have a chance of channel you're cream 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.919 into ice cream. And and and Europeans did not figure 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.600 this out for quite a long time. I think part 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.199 of the reason being that salt was so expensive. This 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:49.800 is one of the things that is quite hard for 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.360 us to grasp today because you know, you go into 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.119 the store store and you can buy a packet of 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.439 a cocier salt for less than a dollar. The idea 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:04.760 of salt being a prestigian expensive commodity is something that 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.480 the battles us now. But it was uh and it 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.240 was highly taxed as well. It was very highly taxed. 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:17.800 Um and so as good as ice cream tastes, even 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.200 if you know the science, you're not going to waste 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:24.720 the salts on it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.600 because I'm just thinking to my own experiences with making 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:30.399 ice cream, like you end up using a fair amount 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.160 of salt, uh, like Durning, it's like a whole box 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.000 of rock salt to oh at least absolutely absolutely, do 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.000 do you hand shown in one of those old fashioned 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.960 Oh no, if I did say that. We we tried. 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:43.879 At one point we tried this device. It was like 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.479 a ball, and the ideas you you fill it up 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.280 and then children will play with the ball and that 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.040 will eventually produce ice cream via the churning. But we 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.720 found that it's a little too much to ask for 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.880 for children to continually play with the ball that long, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:58.800 so it ends up. The adults just have to roll 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.200 it back and forth across the ground until it becomes 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.280 ice cream. We have imagine mixed ice cream machine. We 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.520 kind of conn the cheats way, but it works. So 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:15.040 coming back to opinions against chilled beverages, how did the 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.199 medieval world view the consumption of chilled beverages? And then 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:19.680 where do we see that, like, where do we see 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.879 a shift in general opinion of chilled beverages and and 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:29.119 so forth. Oh man, you're bringing the big questions today, 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:33.879 aren't you. Okay, So, in the medieval world, um ice 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.960 is certainly very present, and we we know that um 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:42.560 particularly in in the Middle East, ice was it was 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.560 very popular. We we we know stories of salad that 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.879 there's a lovely myth about saladine sending a sack of 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:52.840 ice to Richard the third, when so Richard the first 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.719 and Richard the First was ill, probably not true. We 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:02.280 know again with Saladine, there's the fan tastic story of 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:08.560 him killing a guy called Raymond a shatti or because 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.760 Raymond took a glass of iced rose water out of 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.639 Saladine's hand and drank it when it wasn't given to him, 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.400 and Saladine kills him stone dead, which is a scene 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.960 that crops up in Realley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven, which 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:28.960 interesting movie. Original release cut, not very good, the director's cut, 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:31.679 which has an extra forty five minutes of stuff, and 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.280 it is actually quite the movie. And that scene is 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.959 is very powerful. UM so we we we know the 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.840 ice is is very present, and we know that people 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:46.080 argue about whether it's good for people or not. You 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.840 always have your senicon kind of people cropping up saying, oh, 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.240 you know, the party poopers saying no, we shouldn't have 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:57.560 any ice. But it's there, is there is current, it's present, 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.879 and it's, as I said before, is the preserve of 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.879 the wealthy. Um. As to whether there's a shift or 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.000 not of acceptance, I I don't think he ever wasn't accepted. 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:13.440 I just think that there were your dissenters in literature 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:17.480 who happened to be writing about it, and their books survive. 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.080 With a product like ice. Um, the fans aren't going 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.960 to bother writing. The dissenters will because that sells. And 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.480 twas ever, thus even you know, before the invention of 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:32.240 the printing press, So the people who are who are 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:36.399 writing and dissenting are I think, I think in the minority. 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.280 I can't prove that because there's just not enough information 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.600 upon which to make a judgment. But that's my hunch. Okay, yeah, 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.399 I mean it's squares with a lot of what what 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:50.040 we've been talking about with taking ice for granted. Um, 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:53.040 and unless you have an issue with it, or and 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:55.800 I guess in our experiences, unless there's a problem in 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.760 actually acquiring it, then you begin to realize how how 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:02.399 marvelous it is well well exactly and and and you 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.040 sort of see that in the tropics, you know, people, 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:08.960 that's why Frederick Tudor hits on such a genius idea 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:11.640 when he started shipping it to the Caribbean and then 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.440 further afield, because you had no ready source. I mean 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:20.800 in Jamaica. I'm I'm half Jamaica. My mother's from Tica Bay. 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.880 We have the beautiful blue mountains, but they don't get 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.280 snow on them. They are they're high enough, but you 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.760 know it's too tropical, it's never gonna happen. So let's 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:34.280 let's get back to cocktails. So I was, I was 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:36.400 very excited when you brought it up. I almost wanted 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:41.920 to shift ahead to the cocktail discussion at that point. Um. Yeah, yeah, 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:46.000 to your point, like we think about about mixed beverages especially, 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:49.639