1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: your Mind. This is Robert Lamb and I have an 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: exciting interview for you today. I'm gonna be talking with 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: Fred Hogg, author of the new book of Ice and Men, 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: How We've Used Cold to Transform Humanity. Uh. Covers everything 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: from cocktail ice to the ancient history of ice houses. Uh. 8 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: It gets into so many wonderful areas. So I hope 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this interview. This chat I had with Fred 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of fun, just as the book is 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of fun. Hi. Fred, thanks for coming 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: on the show. Thank you very much for having me. 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: It's really really pleasure to be here. Excellent. Yeah, the 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: book is is so much fun. I just read it 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: the other day. Of Ice and Men, How We've Used 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Cold to Transform Humanity wonder for inside ful and surprising 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: look and humanity's history with ice. Humanity's propensity to take 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: ice for granted is a recurring theme in your book, 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: and I just was wondering were you prepared for just 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: how often it has been taken for granted in recorded history. 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: That's a really, really interesting question, um. And to one 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: degree I was because having sort of started out in 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: my career as an ancient historian, one finds oneself very 24 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: limited by what people not just what people choose to 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: write about, but what survives. UM. So when you're dealing 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: with with with the ancient world, it's not just that 27 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: people have the topics that they think are interesting and 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: that they care about, but we also have to deal 29 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: with this whole big problem of textual transmission, and a 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: number of books, the fast number of books and just 31 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: do not come down to us from the ancient world, 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: and some of the ones that do come down by 33 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: very very um strange ways. If I were member correctly, 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: Catullus poetry was found under a barrel in the fourteenth century, UM, 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: and that was the only copy that came through somehow. 36 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: And it's it's wonderful stuff. But when it comes to 37 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: stuff like like ice and functional things, it requires on 38 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: the one hand, an ancient writer to be interested, on 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: the other hand, for it to be copied. So, for example, 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: we know an enormous amount about Aqueduct because a book 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: by a guy called Frontinus survives. If it hadn't, we 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: would just have the archaeology. But as it is, we 43 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: have the book and we know how they work with ice. 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: I knew that the sources would be will be slim 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: for the ancient stuff, and that's fair enough. And you 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time trawling around just trying to 47 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: find a glimpse and mentioned as something here or there, 48 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: but you know it's it's um. But that's part of 49 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: the challenge. That's part of what makes it fun. Now, 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: this is probably a question of being asked a lot, 51 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: but just in general, how did you come to write 52 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: a book about ice? Um? Well, basically what happened was 53 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: I I hadn't really thought about it as a topic 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: to write about. And my wife's a cookery writer and 55 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: cookery teacher and she was doing a class back when 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: we lived in London, and she asked me to help 57 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: out and kind and make some cocktails for the for 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: the customers. And as I was shaking up these drinks, 59 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: I happened to remark that if you don't have ice, 60 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: you can't really have a cocktail. And one of the 61 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: punters said, prove it um. And basically that's what I've 62 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: set out to try and do. And as soon as 63 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: I started to delving into it, I realized what an 64 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: extraordinary rich um seem of information it is because it 65 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: is that the big sort of unsung hero and monster 66 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: of modern life, and it's changing us. I I I 67 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: think it's quite profound. Um. I was reading what was 68 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: it last week? I think that the eight billion person 69 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: has just been born on planet Earth. This is in 70 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: those small parts down two. The extraordinary benefits that ice 71 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: have brought humanity, both in terms of our nutrition, in 72 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: terms of medicine, in terms of so many things, is 73 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: absolutely supercharged the species. It's from from now, the species 74 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: has exploded. And it is entirely down to the fact 75 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: that we are able to feed ourselves so much better 76 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: because the refrigeration, because of cool chains, because of all 77 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: of the benefits that ice has brought us. And what 78 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: burden does that place upon the rest of the system. 79 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: And I think that's the big question. Yeah. You you 80 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: you returned to the idea of multiple times in the 81 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: book that that ice is inherently linked to civilization, and 82 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: and you you frequently invoked the film AdPT of the 83 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: Mosquito Coast. Can you remind our listeners of this film? 84 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: And I suppose of the book and it's the use 85 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: of ice. I have to confess I have never read 86 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: the book. I've only ever seen the movie, which is 87 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: a terrible, terrible admission. I know pulled through as a 88 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: wonderful writer, but I haven't read it. But in the 89 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: movie version, directed by the wonderful Australian director Peter Weir, 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: the lead character Alie Fox, as played by Harrison Ford, 91 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: has this very catching line of ice is civilization and 92 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: then sets out into the rainforests of Believe to build 93 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: an ice machine to bring ice to the people. That 94 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: idea has always struck with me. And I first saw 95 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: that film. Gosh, this dates me now. I saw that 96 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: film on general release, so gosh, that was what eighty six, 97 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: As you said, I think came at eighty seven in 98 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: the UK because we were often at that point a 99 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: little bit behind the United States. But yes, and I 100 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: think I think that he hasn't absolute point. Ice has 101 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: always been there from the very beginning of the civilization. 102 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: The ancient Sumerians, the very first civilized society, had ice, 103 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: which is something that is quite baffling to grasp, given 104 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: as in the City of a Rook, the first city 105 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: is in the deserts of southern ire K, and you know, 106 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: were you to visit it today, you'd find this barren, 107 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: wind swept, desolate landscape. And it's very hard to imagine 108 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: a that it was once a blossoming, fertile place and 109 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: b that they could make ice there and it's baking 110 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: its forty five degrees in the shade. But ice was there. 111 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: Ice was inherent in their lives. We don't know how 112 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: they use it. We just know that it was there, 113 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: which is, as ever, often one of the big problems 114 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: with archaeological sources. They'll tell you a thing that they 115 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: won't give you a context. But but sorry, I'm rabbiting on. 116 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm so rob No, no, this is wonderful. Yeah, because 117 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: that was what I'm gonna ask about. Next was the 118 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: the ancient Sumerian ice houses, because this was this really 119 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: blew me away, just imagining me away too, I've got 120 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: to be honest. Yeah, So is it thought that the 121 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: ancient Sumerians invented ice house technology or or where do 122 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: we just like I was saying, you know, we have 123 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: in the year thirteen of the reign of Shulgi, they 124 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: built an ice house. That's what the tablet tells us 125 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: Um and that's it. I'm not a Sumerian expert at all. 126 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: I I had to read up on quite a lot 127 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: of stuff, and I still don't fully understand it. But 128 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: when we look at those kind of cuneve form tablets 129 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: from the ancient Middle and Near East, particularly as we 130 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: get into the next section of where ice reas its 131 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: head and a kingdom called Marii, which is was situated 132 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: in eastern Syria around about like the fifteen four hundred 133 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: BC dame mentioned in ice House in their tablets. But 134 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: when we get to that era, what we do have 135 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: as an extraordinary level of correspondence written between the great 136 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: kingdoms of the Middle and Near East, from the hit 137 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: Sides to the Assyrians, to the Marii to the Egyptians, 138 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: and they're they're all broadly in Assyrium and and and 139 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: we have some of these archives, the one in mari 140 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: was discovered in the thirties. Is there a huge insight 141 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: into how that world operated and how it worked. And 142 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: these kings would you know, right to each other, you know, 143 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: to the great king of Assyria, my brother, how how 144 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: you're doing, or or that kind of thing. But but 145 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: again the ice House and Marii is mentioned obliquely. We 146 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: know that it was there. We we don't know if 147 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: there was only one or if there were many in 148 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: their various and cities, but we know they had access 149 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: to ice. And we know again, um, it was a 150 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: luxury ice. It wasn't something that was there for everybody. 151 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: It was a prestige product. And you you mentioned these 152 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: various other ice houses and ice pits that pop up 153 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: in other civilizations. Does it does it seem like this 154 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: is a case of cultural transmission or it's just kind 155 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: of like independent inventions from people who or people or 156 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: kingdoms that are in areas where they have access to 157 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,599 Speaker 1: snow and they are figuring out ways to keep that 158 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: snow around. You have to have access, I mean when 159 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: we when we look at the Persian ice houses or 160 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:50,119 Speaker 1: yacht coals, these are specially designed structures that UM operates 161 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: on evaporative cooling and they in those kind of desert 162 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: environments where the temperature drops incredibly fast and UM as 163 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: the s and goes down, you can create conditions in 164 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: a controlled space where you can freeze things. So that 165 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: is a technology specific to their environment. And we're talking 166 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: seven b C five b C or thereabouts. When you 167 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: start looking at ancient Greece or civilizations like that. They 168 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: have access to ice from mountains. They will bring the 169 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: snow down UM and we and we see this technology 170 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: so in Italy, UM and in Spain into the early 171 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: modern era. And it doesn't really change a whole lot. 172 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: You some poor bloke generally a bloke has to carry 173 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: the snow down and a thing on his back. You 174 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: pack it down hard into the ground into a pit 175 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: that's insulated with branches and then covered and then sold. 176 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: And you could do this. Um. You can do this 177 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: in the Lebanon because you can get the um the 178 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: ice from the mountains at the top of the beck 179 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: Up Valley. You can do it in Greece. You can 180 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: do it in Italy. The Apennines was the big source 181 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: of ice for Rome. You can do it in Sudden 182 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: Spain as host cities. In Seville you still have mountains 183 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: quite close by where you shouldn where you can get 184 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: the ice from. But if you don't have that access, 185 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. And India is quite an 186 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: interesting one because because because again they were able to 187 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: do an evaporative cooling technique with special ponds and as 188 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: the the cool, they would come off the mountains, they 189 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: could place clay pots out on the walls, would freeze, 190 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: and they would have ice for the next day. But again, 191 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: this is a short lived resource. It's not going to 192 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: to be around for very long, and therefore is the 193 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: preserve of the wealthy for for really up until the 194 00:11:51,480 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Now you get into get into this area 195 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: where there there, there there is. There are more mentions 196 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: of of ice, and a one that I thought was 197 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: particularly interesting. You mentioned first century CE Roman philosopher Seneca. 198 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: For I sold in Roman markets. Do we do we 199 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: know why he disapproved? I think we don't know. I 200 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why he does. It was Seneca. From 201 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: everything that I know, I what little I know of Seneca, 202 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: he was a fairly sniffy old chap he was. He Yes, 203 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: he was a very proper fellow, was our Seneca. Um, 204 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: it was probably why Nero killed him. Great philosopher, great writer, 205 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: really really really disgusting playwright in terms of the amount 206 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: of blood and gore in his plays. Oh my God, 207 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: in his version of Medea, you actually see the babies 208 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: being thrown from the battlements on stage. I mean, Seneca's 209 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: plays are mental and Shakespeare was a very big fan 210 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: of Naka's playwriting, which might explain explain all the Claret 211 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: and Gore and Coriolanus. But he was. Yeah, Seneca Shakespeare 212 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: was a big fan of Seneca's dramaturgy. Uh, he's he does, 213 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: he does like to you know him that you know 214 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: juvenile as well. There there are a bunch of those 215 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: guys around that first century who do like to have 216 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: quite snaughty opinions about how awful the modern world is, 217 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: which I suppose is something that hasn't really changed. But yes, 218 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: he was not a fan of ice. He thought ice 219 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: was it was bad for people, and that they shouldn't 220 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: be doing it, which is an idea that that would 221 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: prevail for quite a long time, for at least another 222 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: sort of five six years after his time. There's a 223 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: Spanish doctor Menards who's I think I mentioned the book 224 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: who's writes about how bad ice can be for you. 225 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: There's an enormous amount of inco and paper wasted on 226 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: medical literature saying that ice is a bad thing in 227 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: the fifty and sixteen centuries. Yeah. This. I was intrigued 228 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: by this the more I read in the book, too, 229 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: because initially I was also reminded of some traditions I 230 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: think in like Chinese traditional medicine, the idea that one 231 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: should drink hot water as opposed to child water. But 232 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: then later on in the book you also mentioned issues 233 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: concerning the potential contamination of snow with dirt that later 234 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: the idea that you could you could have actual outbreaks 235 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: due to contamination of water ice. A lot of them 236 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: were about the Roman stuff, and early on a lot 237 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: of that ice that was sold in in those markets 238 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: in ancient grease ancient rooms actually snow compacted snow, and 239 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: that contains inherently particles of dirt and mud and and bits. 240 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: Where the market evolves into thanks to a brilliant Bostonian 241 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: guy called for Edric Tudor, is the export of hand 242 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: cut ice from lakes in New England. And these are 243 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: blocks of solid ice, and solid ice is very much 244 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: more pure than compacted snow. And they were shipping this 245 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: all around the world from Tudor start of an eighteen 246 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: o six and finally really got it figured out in 247 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: the eighteen twenties after the War of eighteen twelve. Was 248 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: you know that kind of put the kibosh on him 249 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: for a while, Um, but as the demand increases, you 250 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: have two problems. The first is you want to make 251 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: more ice faster for your stores. So they would do 252 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: this thing which was called sinking the well, whereby having 253 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: cut a bunch of ice out, they would also drill 254 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: extra holes in the top of a pond or lake 255 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: so that the water would well up and refreeze. But 256 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: what that would do, what it would catch your footprints 257 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: between in the original layer that you're walking on in 258 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: the water that welld up, so there would be dirt 259 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: trapped within the ice, which was not exactly pleasing to 260 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: the customer. But the bigger problem, as you point out, 261 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: as time goes on, is pollution, and the uptaker ice 262 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: usage runs parallel alongside with the industrial revolution and the 263 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: various pourings of industrial waste human waste into the waterways 264 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: which were then being harvested for ice. And then one 265 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: of the most awful cases there was a mental hospital 266 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: and upstate New York that used to cut its ice 267 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: from the river downstream of where they're effluent pipe ran 268 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: in and a number of people died. And this is 269 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: kind of the beginning of the end for natural ice 270 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: as a commercial proposition. Now now, thus far far and 271 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: a lot of students are probably you know, we're talking 272 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: about the use of this ice and hello listeners. Uses 273 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: kind of the kind of a novelty and I know, 274 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: I'm I'm imagining drinks with ice in them, drinks with 275 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: bits of snow in them, and you you get into 276 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: this this this is a really fun part of the 277 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: book to talking about, like a Florentine wine a chilling 278 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: back in the thirteen so I was thinking about that 279 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: a lot. But then of course another important ice treat 280 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: comes up, and then of course his ice cream. Um yes, 281 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: what's the where do we seem to find like the 282 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: oldest possible evidence of ice cream in the world. There's 283 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: a lot of mythology wrap top with ice cream. Um 284 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: so stories tell us that ice cream was invented in 285 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: China and that it was the privilege and unique dessert 286 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: of the Imperial court and nobody else could have it. 287 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: And then the apographer goes on to say that Marco 288 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: Polo brought the recipe back to Italy. The absolutely the latter, 289 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: it is absolutely rot Whether the Chinese we're eating ice 290 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: cream as opposed to have cooled, chilled things, that's kind 291 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: of hard to pin down. But ice cream in the 292 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: European context doesn't happen until the seventeenth century. There's a 293 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: lovely sort of piece of mythology that Catherine de Medici, 294 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: when she was married to the Dauphin of France, brought 295 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: the recipe and all kinds of other recipes with her 296 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: into France and re transformed French cooking. But this is 297 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: absolutely rot For one reason, she was thirteen fourteen and 298 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: probably not widely interesting recipes at the time um and 299 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: would have been stripped of all things Italian at the border. 300 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: For another, the science of how do you make cream 301 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: freeze was not known in Europe at that point, although 302 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: it was known in other parts of the world, and 303 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: it crops up. There's a twelfth century Indian Treaties which 304 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: describes how to do it, and it basically involves making 305 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: a brine solution within too within which to freeze your 306 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: your cream. The thing is, cream freezes about half a 307 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: degree lower than water, so even if you just put 308 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: it in ice, you're just gonna end up with cold cream. 309 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: So you've got to find a way to make the 310 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: chilling scenario even colder, and the best way to do 311 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: that is to add a shed load of salt to it. 312 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: Brian freezes at a much lower temperature, so you can 313 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: get the surrounding liquid down to about minus sixteen celsius 314 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: and then you have a chance of channel you're cream 315 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: into ice cream. And and and Europeans did not figure 316 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: this out for quite a long time. I think part 317 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: of the reason being that salt was so expensive. This 318 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: is one of the things that is quite hard for 319 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: us to grasp today because you know, you go into 320 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: the store store and you can buy a packet of 321 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: a cocier salt for less than a dollar. The idea 322 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: of salt being a prestigian expensive commodity is something that 323 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: the battles us now. But it was uh and it 324 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: was highly taxed as well. It was very highly taxed. 325 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: Um and so as good as ice cream tastes, even 326 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: if you know the science, you're not going to waste 327 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: the salts on it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 328 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: because I'm just thinking to my own experiences with making 329 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: ice cream, like you end up using a fair amount 330 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: of salt, uh, like Durning, it's like a whole box 331 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: of rock salt to oh at least absolutely absolutely, do 332 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: do you hand shown in one of those old fashioned 333 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: Oh no, if I did say that. We we tried. 334 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: At one point we tried this device. It was like 335 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: a ball, and the ideas you you fill it up 336 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: and then children will play with the ball and that 337 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: will eventually produce ice cream via the churning. But we 338 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: found that it's a little too much to ask for 339 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: for children to continually play with the ball that long, 340 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: so it ends up. The adults just have to roll 341 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: it back and forth across the ground until it becomes 342 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: ice cream. We have imagine mixed ice cream machine. We 343 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: kind of conn the cheats way, but it works. So 344 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: coming back to opinions against chilled beverages, how did the 345 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 1: medieval world view the consumption of chilled beverages? And then 346 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: where do we see that, like, where do we see 347 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: a shift in general opinion of chilled beverages and and 348 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: so forth. Oh man, you're bringing the big questions today, 349 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: aren't you. Okay, So, in the medieval world, um ice 350 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: is certainly very present, and we we know that um 351 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: particularly in in the Middle East, ice was it was 352 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: very popular. We we we know stories of salad that 353 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: there's a lovely myth about saladine sending a sack of 354 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: ice to Richard the third, when so Richard the first 355 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: and Richard the First was ill, probably not true. We 356 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: know again with Saladine, there's the fan tastic story of 357 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: him killing a guy called Raymond a shatti or because 358 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: Raymond took a glass of iced rose water out of 359 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: Saladine's hand and drank it when it wasn't given to him, 360 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: and Saladine kills him stone dead, which is a scene 361 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: that crops up in Realley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven, which 362 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: interesting movie. Original release cut, not very good, the director's cut, 363 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: which has an extra forty five minutes of stuff, and 364 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: it is actually quite the movie. And that scene is 365 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,959 Speaker 1: is very powerful. UM so we we we know the 366 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: ice is is very present, and we know that people 367 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: argue about whether it's good for people or not. You 368 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: always have your senicon kind of people cropping up saying, oh, 369 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, the party poopers saying no, we shouldn't have 370 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: any ice. But it's there, is there is current, it's present, 371 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: and it's, as I said before, is the preserve of 372 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: the wealthy. Um. As to whether there's a shift or 373 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: not of acceptance, I I don't think he ever wasn't accepted. 374 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: I just think that there were your dissenters in literature 375 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: who happened to be writing about it, and their books survive. 376 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: With a product like ice. Um, the fans aren't going 377 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: to bother writing. The dissenters will because that sells. And 378 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: twas ever, thus even you know, before the invention of 379 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: the printing press, So the people who are who are 380 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: writing and dissenting are I think, I think in the minority. 381 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: I can't prove that because there's just not enough information 382 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: upon which to make a judgment. But that's my hunch. Okay, yeah, 383 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: I mean it's squares with a lot of what what 384 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: we've been talking about with taking ice for granted. Um, 385 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: and unless you have an issue with it, or and 386 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: I guess in our experiences, unless there's a problem in 387 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: actually acquiring it, then you begin to realize how how 388 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: marvelous it is well well exactly and and and you 389 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: sort of see that in the tropics, you know, people, 390 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: that's why Frederick Tudor hits on such a genius idea 391 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: when he started shipping it to the Caribbean and then 392 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: further afield, because you had no ready source. I mean 393 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: in Jamaica. I'm I'm half Jamaica. My mother's from Tica Bay. 394 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: We have the beautiful blue mountains, but they don't get 395 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: snow on them. They are they're high enough, but you 396 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: know it's too tropical, it's never gonna happen. So let's 397 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: let's get back to cocktails. So I was, I was 398 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: very excited when you brought it up. I almost wanted 399 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: to shift ahead to the cocktail discussion at that point. Um. Yeah, yeah, 400 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: to your point, like we think about about mixed beverages especially, 401 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: and and we instantly think about ice, we may and 402 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: then there's so many ways to add ice, you know, 403 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: particular streams of cube, the different sort of grains of 404 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: crushed ice. Uh. Did you have a particular favorite. Well, 405 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: it depends on what the drink is, to be honest 406 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: with you. If if it's like an old fashioned and 407 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: nice large big cube, um, you know, if if if 408 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: it's something else, then that there may be a bit 409 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: more crushed I'm a big fan of of a good 410 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,239 Speaker 1: stirred martini. I know that some cocktail enthusiasts are so 411 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: wild for the for the pearl ice or sometimes called 412 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: here in the States, that the sonic ice that I've 413 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: seen memes about, like you about leaving the bar if 414 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: the if that particular grain of ice it's not available. 415 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: I think that that's I think that's a little ponsey 416 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: if we're I mean, I'm a dive bar kind of 417 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: a guy, so you know, I'm not that fast about 418 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: about it. But that said, that said, I do have 419 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: a friend in Los Angeles, a bar keep there, and 420 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: he designs ice. Oh wow. And he has an ice 421 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: business and makes bespoke cubes of various shapes, these beautiful 422 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: of globes of ice that are about like three inches 423 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: across um and they're wonderful, wonderful things. You can't help 424 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: but be impressed by that. But I'm a simple boy. 425 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: But let's talk let's but let's talk cocktails. Rob, come on, 426 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: where's the big question? Let's go all right, Well, eventually 427 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: you also you bring up Jerry Thomas Bartenders guys. Yes, 428 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: one of the world's great Well, he only mentions ice 429 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: once in the book, and he says in the introduction 430 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: he says ice should be wiped clean and set aside, 431 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: and then he doesn't mention it again beyond the fact 432 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: that's in all the recipes. But he doesn't talk about 433 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: ice again. It's such a commonplace by the time he 434 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: writes that book, it's ridiculous. This this, this was this 435 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: you you asked me earlier on about the way into 436 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: this book. And you know, I've done my my time 437 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: in Bars. I worked in Bars when I was a 438 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: student to pay my way through college and all the 439 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: rest of it. So I've had Jerry Thomas on my 440 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: shop for a long time because I've had the book 441 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: for so long. I suppose this kind of blew my mind. 442 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: It was like, what, wait, Jerry, where's the ice? What 443 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: the hell is going on? Man? I just you know, um, 444 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: I couldn't quite get my head around it. Eighteen sixty two, 445 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: he writes that Frederick Tudor starts trading his eyes out 446 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: of Boston eight six. That gap of time, what's that? 447 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: Fifty four years? Fifty six years? My math is atrocious. 448 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: Please forgive me. Ice has become every day it's become 449 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: an ordinary, unremarkable thing. And this to me blows my 450 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: actual mind. Yeah, I found myself wondering if it was 451 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: just like ice was ice at that point then there 452 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: just hadn't been a lot of innovation. It was just 453 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: you were sort of happy to have what you had 454 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: or no. Well, the innovation is Mr Tudor. And he 455 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: starts shipping, like I just said, in eighteen o six 456 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: to Martinique, which doesn't go very well for him. He 457 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: hasn't got his his organization fully sorted, he hasn't got 458 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: a nice house built there to receive his cargo. It 459 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: largely melts on the dock. Um. So he tries again 460 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: the next year, and he goes to Cuba, and that 461 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: goes rather better. But then things start going a bit 462 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: a right. Um. He manages the first few years. The 463 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: War of eighteen twelve starts, and of course, as its 464 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: name suggests, eteen twelve the Caesar closed. The seas were 465 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: closed earlier than that in eight o seven because the 466 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: Americans didn't want to have their seamen captured by the 467 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,479 Speaker 1: British impressed into the British Navy who were fighting the 468 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: French at that time. So there was a whole thing 469 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: going on with that which made it quite tricky for him. 470 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: He gets into terrible, terrible, terrible debt to the extent 471 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: that he's sent to prison for it, and his father 472 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: manages to get some people together and have a whip around, 473 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: and they bail him out and he gets back into 474 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: business and he starts, um, I think it's Charleston first, 475 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: and then Savannah in the South, he starts shipping ice. 476 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: And he also he doesn't just ship ice to these places. 477 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: He also invents ice boxes for domestic use, which would 478 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: put a lump of ice on the top and you 479 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: can keep your milky cheese, your fish or whatever nice 480 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: and cool. But his real innovation is that he realizes 481 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: that the gateway to the ice business is drinks and 482 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: ice cream. So whenever he arrives in a place, when 483 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: he arrives in Savannah, when he arrives in Charleston, when 484 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: he arrives in New Orleans, he gives the ice away 485 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: to bartenders for at least the first sort of period 486 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: of time. Because his theory, as he writes in one 487 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: of his letters to a guy called Stephen Cabot, who 488 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: is managing one of his ice operations in the Caribbean, 489 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: is that I'm going to paraphrase, I'm not going to 490 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: quite quote this accurately. He says, if a man has 491 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: had his drink cold for one week, he will not 492 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: go back to having it warm. And he's not wrong, 493 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: particularly in those kind of climates, and and so you 494 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: know that that's when the sort of the ice cube 495 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: gets into the old fashioned I think is that is 496 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: around that very era. I mean, he gets to New Orleans, 497 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: that's to me the birth of the cardtail right there. 498 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: He was brilliant. Um, he was shipping to India by 499 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty three, he was shipping to Australia by eighteen 500 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: thirty five. This is all hand carved ice from lakes 501 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: in New England going around the world. Um, and it is. 502 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: It's one of those brilliantly baffling moments of history that's 503 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: completely forgotten because we don't need it anymore. But you know, 504 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: there are there's there's there's one brilliant thing I think 505 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: I reference in referenced in the book. I think it' 506 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: about thirty seven the ice supply drives up in Calcutta 507 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: and the place goes nuts. All these people are just going, 508 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: you know, where is that? Their editorials written written in 509 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: the newspaper saying where has our ice gone? How can 510 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: we function like this? You know? And it's it's kind 511 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: of brilliant. So yes, because of Tudor's brilliance and his 512 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: determination to come into a place, bring a load of ice, 513 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: snack it up and sell it cheap, and turn it 514 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: from being this luxury commodity for the wealthy into an 515 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: everyday necessity. And I think this is the big thing 516 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: is he makes it quittity, and he makes it ordinary. 517 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: He makes it something you cannot function without. That's why 518 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: Jerry Thomas is able to just say ice should be 519 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: washed and set aside, because to him is it is 520 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: now ordinary, And even even as it is transforming his 521 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: customers experience, even as it is in two beginning to 522 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: form the basis of the very first cool chains in 523 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: the United States, with big, massive locks of ice being 524 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: strung in hammocks in train cabins over meat and vegetables, 525 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: it is now an everyday thing. Um. And and that's 526 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: exactly the kind of stuff that people don't write about. 527 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: And it's exactly why it's fascinating, Thank thank so. Coming 528 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: coming back to to wine a bit. We touched on 529 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: chilled wine earlier. How long does it seem like we've 530 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: been in joining chilled wine and and and and I 531 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: don't know. I also can't help but think about the 532 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: fact that, yes, we still have for the most part 533 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,959 Speaker 1: red wines are not chilled. Well, there shouldn't be. There was. 534 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: There was briefly a fashion in Britain at some point 535 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century for chilling red wine, which is 536 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: an abominable thing to do, and I honestly don't know 537 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: what they were thinking, and I'm frankly ashamed of them. 538 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: But but but I think that the chilling of wine 539 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: is something that has gone on for for for ages. 540 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 1: I we have in um Athena as this book, I 541 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: can never pronounce this right, I'm going to try the depnostisty. 542 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: He records a story of the comic player, right Diphilus, 543 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: going around for dinner with this woman called good Lethea, 544 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: and she has snow that's been sent by one of 545 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: her lovers, brought into chill the wine. So that's, you know, 546 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: nearly two thous years ago. I think that humans have 547 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: always liked a cold, refreshing drink. I think that's just 548 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: part of who we are. Um it's just that we 549 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: haven't had access to it for the vast bulk of 550 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: bar history, and with wine in particular, we we know 551 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: that the Tuscans were very keen on on chilling their 552 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: white wines. Down um, in the middle part of the 553 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 1: last millennium. We can attest to that. And God knows, 554 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: those lovely flinty whites that they make are are beautiful 555 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: when nicely iced and cold, So they clearly knew what 556 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: they were doing. Now that the book explores so many 557 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: other exciting fields, I mean, you get into space exploration, medicine, 558 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: the food supply chain. Um, there's a lot more invention 559 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: history and there, and then there's there's even I was 560 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: I was surprised in the light about that. There's a 561 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: whole chapter on the Terror and the arab Us Um. Yeah, 562 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: in part I was excited at that because I very 563 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: recently watched that that adaptation of Dan Simon's novel The Terror. 564 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: I haven't seen that. I'm looking forward to that. Oh, 565 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: I have not read the original books, so I can't 566 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: compare it to that. But I my wife and I 567 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: loved it. Thought it was terrific, wonderful performances. It's it's 568 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: it's such a fascinating story, um. And there's so much 569 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: that we just don't know about what happened to these 570 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: pull man Um. It is ghastly how poorly equipped and 571 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: badly prepared these memos sent into the altic um. If 572 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: the boats survived, arguably the men would um. But you 573 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: know it was Captain Willard tells us in Apocalypse Now 574 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: and never get off the boat. Yeah, even though, like 575 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: like you point out in the in the book that 576 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: you know they were they had a lot of very 577 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: advanced technology they had and these are steam powered vessels, 578 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: but they did. They had they They were among the 579 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: first ships in the British Navy fitted with steam engines 580 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: that were attractable. They had retractable propellers, They had chimneys 581 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: that they even had a rubber dinghy um. And they 582 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: had a monkey called Jacko, who by all accounts was 583 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: an absolute bastard. Um. They had a dog called Old 584 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: Nap who was beloved by letters that that that that 585 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: that came back before they finally went to the art 586 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: to tell us that Old Nap was. It was a 587 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 1: big crew favorite. They had a vast library. They were 588 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: incredibly ahead of the curve in terms of their awareness 589 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: of the need to take care of the men's mental 590 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: health should they be frozen in and this is one 591 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: of the things they absolutely got right. The real problem 592 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: for them is that their cold weather clothes were largely 593 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: made of wool, which is in fact the most terrible 594 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: insulator if you're in an Arctic environment, because you know 595 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: you do the work needs to be done, you sweat 596 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: into the world. Then you stop working, you start getting cold, 597 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: and the sweat in the wolf freezers. And this is 598 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: a problem. And nobody thought to ask the locals, apart 599 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: weirdly from the guy who was the first person to 600 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: report back news of what happened to the Franklin expedition, 601 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: and explorer called John Ray, who was a Scottish guy. 602 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: He was a surveyor, he was a surgeon. He's probably 603 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: the only Arctic explorer of the era from the UK 604 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: who never got a nighthoud. And he was the one 605 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: guy who learned how to speak to the Innuits and 606 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: learn how to move like the Innuit, dressed like the Innuit. 607 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: Survive hunt exists in that fashion, and and he is 608 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: largely unique amongst those nineteenth century polar explorers. And he 609 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: was the one guy who who got the first The 610 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: first store is the first Inuit testimony of what happened 611 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: to the men of the Franklin expedition, as tragic as 612 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: it was, and was rubbished for his efforts by no 613 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: lesser author than the ghastly Charles Dickens, who, really, you know, 614 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: was I need? I can't talk. I need to stop 615 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: talking about Dickens. I can't stand the man. He's been 616 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: the bane of my life since school. I can't read 617 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: his stuff. He's a racist bastard. I can't stand him. 618 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: I wasn't familiar with the history of dickens involvement in 619 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: all of them. He was a great friends with Lady 620 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: Jane Franklin, um John Franklin's widow, And when the Ray 621 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: Report came in, which told terrible stories of anthroprophagy and 622 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: starvation and enormous suffering, he basically took to his magazine 623 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: outlet of periodical called Household Words to lambast the stories 624 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: and and basically say it must have been the barbarous 625 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: Inuit who at our brave, noble naval officers rather than 626 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: the meeting themselves. And he couldn't he couldn't countans the 627 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: idea that a oral society could know something and tell 628 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: us something that might be useful to him, That was 629 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: that was preposterous because they couldn't write anything down. Therefore 630 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: they're absolutely useless in his opinion, and he writes this 631 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: stuff down. And you know, we we we we tend 632 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: to remember his novels, which I find the boast and 633 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: quite dull, but are generally speaking quite open hearted. His 634 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: journalism not so much. His journalism betrays the full on 635 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: Victorian that he and he can be both things at once. 636 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, yes, and and I was, weirdly, 637 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: I was talking to a friend on the phone earlier 638 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: on the Only bit of Dickens that I actually like 639 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: is the David Lean film Great Expectations, which I think 640 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: is a tremendous movie and a brilliant bit of talk storytelling. 641 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: But one of the main reasons why it's a brilliant 642 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: bit of storytelling he doesn't have all that bloody verbiage 643 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: in it, you know, and and Lean is brilliant at 644 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: his image selection and everything else. It's a fantastic and 645 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: very disturbing movie. But no, Dickens and me, we're not friends. 646 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: So um cannibalism, Charles Dickens cocktails space exploration. You cover 647 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: a lot of ground in this book. Was there was 648 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: there any area in particular that you've found your self 649 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: surprised that you were going to be covering like, well, 650 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: I didn't think I was going to be writing about 651 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,280 Speaker 1: this in my book, but here I am. Well, well, 652 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: I have to confess you've mentioned space exploration. I was 653 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: going to do a chat from spake space Exploration and 654 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 1: then I was later on my deadline and I didn't 655 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: do it. So sadly that's not it. Maybe if there's 656 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: a sequel. But um, the winter sports stuff, yes, was 657 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: very interesting to me to particularly the Jean Claude Keilly 658 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: stuff and the way he became such a marketing phenomenon 659 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: in UM in the United States in the early seventies 660 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: and reading that Hunter Thompson article about him. That was 661 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,879 Speaker 1: really interesting because it never occurred to me. And in part, 662 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm god, I'm fifty now and so when 663 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: when When I was a kid, ski coverage was just 664 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: beginning to happen on British television. We had this show 665 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: called magazine show called Ski Sunday, and it would cover 666 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: all the big races in Europe and it was tremendously exciting, 667 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: and we were grit We only had three channels, so 668 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: we didn't have a great deal of choice, but it 669 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: was fantastic stuff. The medical chapter as well, was was 670 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 1: was eye open it particularly Samuel Tilishman's Tishuman sorry his 671 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: work on trying to freeze down the body of a 672 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: trauma patient as quickly as possible to try and stop 673 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: the brain damage before you can stop the bleeding. The 674 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: biggest problem that you have should should you be shot 675 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: or stabbed, is bleeding out and the organ failure that 676 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: then follows. And what he's trying to do, and he's 677 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: just going into the second phase of clinical trials right now, 678 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: is to work out a way that you get the 679 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 1: patient into the emergency room and you chill them right 680 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: down as fast as you can to protect the brain 681 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: and to protect the heart, so you can then get 682 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: in and you have time to deal with whatever the 683 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: traumatic issue is that is causing the blood loss. And 684 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: this is absolutely cutting edge stuff. And when I started 685 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 1: writing that chapter, I had no idea that Mr Tishuman existed. 686 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: Dr Tishuman. That absolutely blows my mind. Is extraordinary. I 687 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: I stumbled into that chapter because I I I saw 688 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: a documentary back in the nineties about using hypothermia in 689 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,879 Speaker 1: open heart surgery and how it hadn't quite worked out. 690 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: But it was the history of the early stages of 691 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: open heart surgery and how chilling the patient and using 692 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: hypothermia was really the best way to stop the heart 693 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,239 Speaker 1: jumping about before somebody invents the bypass machine. And so 694 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: I was fascinated by the idea of how you can 695 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:39,280 Speaker 1: use hypothermia in a in a therapeutical setting. Nothing prepared 696 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: me for what Dr Tishuman is up to and it 697 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: is the most astounding stuff and if it works, it's 698 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: going to genuinely transform trauma medicine. Yeah, remarkable stuff, especially 699 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,919 Speaker 1: comparing it to the earlier parts of the book where 700 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about the experience as a freezing to death. 701 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: I've I've been very fortunate to never experience that myself. 702 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: When you're talking about like the phase you reach where 703 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: you you're like, oh, I'm actually quite warm. I need 704 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,919 Speaker 1: to strip a few layers off. I know it's mad 705 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,240 Speaker 1: and and and actually when you read the accounts, actually 706 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's such a bad way to go. 707 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: You know, apparently it's quite a trippy high. Um. You know, 708 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 1: I'm not that I want not that I want to 709 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: freeze the death. But you know, if there's an option, 710 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: you know that that that doesn't seem like one of 711 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: the worst ways in which one can step off this 712 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: mortal coil. Alright, well, Fred, thanks for taking the time 713 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 1: out of your day to chat with me about the book. 714 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: The book, again is of Ice and Men, How We've 715 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: used cold to transform humanity. As of this publication of 716 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 1: this the initial publication of this episode, the book is 717 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: out in the US, and I think correct me if 718 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but it's coming out in the UK in 719 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: the next couple of months in February. Okay, excellent. Well, 720 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: I I've greatly enjoyed it. I highly recommend it to 721 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: all of our listeners. I think everyone out there will 722 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: enjoy the book. Well, thank you so much for Robert. 723 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,839 Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed talking to you this evening. All right, 724 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: thank you, thanks again to Fred. Again, the book is 725 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: of Ice and Men, How We've used Cold to transform Humanity. 726 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 1: Highly recommend you check it out. There's a little something 727 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: in here for everybody. Uh. We're just a wonderful exploration 728 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: of something that you may be taking for granted right now. 729 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about it, but throughout the interview, 730 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: I of course had at an entire container of iced water, 731 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: chilled water right next to me, and I didn't even 732 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 1: think about the connection. Thanks as always to Seth Nicholas 733 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: Johnson for producing the show, and if you would like 734 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: to reach out to me or to Joe any of 735 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: us here at the show, you can shoot us an 736 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:56,879 Speaker 1: email at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 737 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. It's production of I Heart Radio. 738 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: More podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart 739 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your 740 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows.