WEBVTT - Exorcism/Adorcism 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.920 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:15.400 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.480 My name is Robert Lamb and i'm Christian Sager. Tell 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:23.120 me something, Christian, what's your relationship with the Actorcism? Wellism 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.600 in general? It's funny you should ask. I think I've 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:32.600 told the story on this podcast before. But I when 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:36.919 I was twelve going into thirteen years old, went to 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.760 a Baptist private school in Florida, and they very much 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.680 taught us as students there that demon possession was real, uh, 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.680 and to constantly be on guard from demon possession. And 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.320 they would um tell us stories of people that they 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.920 had performed exorcisms on and really kind of, you know, 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.720 literally put the fear of God into us. And I 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.040 had experience where my family went on vacation that same 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.840 year that I was attending that school. We went skiing 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.320 and I wasn't wearing um, what do you call him, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.000 snow goggles when I was skiing and it was a 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.280 really sunny day and the sun was bouncing off of 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.319 the white snow, and I didn't realize that I was 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.640 a little kid, and I got snow blindness. That night. 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.560 I went blind in the middle of the night, I 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.160 woke up and I was blind and I couldn't see anything, 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.280 and because I had been at the school, I was 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:38.520 utterly convinced that I was possessed by a demon and 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.840 that I couldn't see anything because the demon was in 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.360 control of my body and the demon was seeing out 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:48.800 through me. It really, Uh, I freaked me out. I 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.040 was pretty traumatized by the whole thing. I was young. Um, 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:58.440 And therefore the movie The Exorcist was something I avoided 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:02.280 until I was third Yeah, I pretty much. I always 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.240 knew it was out there, as as you know, I'm 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:10.600 a horror fan. Uh, and I just always avoided The Exorcist. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.680 I was like, I know, I like scary movies, but 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:15.600 I just don't know if I can handle that one. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.600 And I finally worked up the courage to watch it 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.840 and I and I loved it. And it's I really 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.359 found that there's something there in terms of my storytelling 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.560 that I wanted to use that moment from when I 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.080 was twelve years old and was so terrified of demon 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.360 possession that I wanted to incorporate into some of my stories. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.000 How about you, because I know you've told this, Uh, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.079 previous episode about exorcism for stuff to blow your mind. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:44.680 I listened to it. But then you've told me this 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.520 story as well yourself. You actually saw an exorcism, Well 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:52.360 it was. It was a sort of exorcism. Uh, what 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.280 we're talking about here is a back room exorcism at 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.640 a late nineties first Baptist church coffee house, youth group 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:05.519 coffee house in Fayeville, Tennessee. So to ground it properly 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:10.200 in the sort of the culture there, uh, spiritual warfares 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:11.720 they called. It was kind of a big deal in 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:13.959 those days, and maybe it still is in many circles. 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:16.480 And this was the notion that demons and angels are 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.680 actively waged in an invisible war for individual souls. So 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.880 it's the screwtape letters by way of Frank Peretti's This 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.280 Present Darkness, which was like a Christian young adult book 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.959 about this kind of spiritual warfare. You know, angels trying 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.440 to get you to do one thing, demons trying to 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.720 do the other, and then like having a big duke 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.520 out fight. Uh, and all of this too by way 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.360 of youthful enthusiasm to change the world and interact with 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.960 a hidden magic of the world. So long story short, 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.560 there's a guy at this coffee house. He wasn't feeling 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.520 so hot, so a soft exorcism, I guess you might 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.640 call it was performed to free him of the demon. 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:54.720 So there were no weird voices, there's no acting out, 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.680 nobody was tied down or anything. It was just some prayer. Uh. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.760 And I don't want to knock it too much because 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.680 looking back on it, you had a case where two 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.120 people reached out to a third person and at least 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:12.960 temporarily soothed mental anguish via this mild religious practice, this 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.920 mild religious experience. But of course it all depends on 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.360 what was actually going on with that young man in 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.040 the back of the coffee house. What was he you know, 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.200 what was he actually experiencing or wrestling with and did 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:29.000 this actually help or discover it up or or give him, uh, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.800 you know, a problematic narrative to wrestle with, because ultimately, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.479 like that's what your story is about. Something traumatic occurred 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.960 and you had no frame of reference for what could 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.880 be occurring except for this supernatural narrative. Yeah. Absolutely, it 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.159 was like it was the prime narrative that I was 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.119 hearing at the time, And so of course I turned 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.680 right to that. Um. Yeah, I think that, like you know, 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.960 we should point out to at the top of this episode, 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.560 we tried to do this and any topic we're covering, 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:03.479 whether it's um, you know, ghost marriages or talking about 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.400 combat stimulation drugs in the military. You know, it may 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.120 not be something that is like in Robert in my 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:16.920 particular lifestyle and again frame of reference. Um, but we're 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.640 we're trying to look at this, you know, positively and 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.000 open minded. So in the sense of exorcism and demon possession. Now, 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:28.080 as an adult, I don't personally believe in it, but 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.320 I believe that those people believe. Uh, and that makes 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.640 it just as real, right, And Uh, in the situation 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:40.279 that you're describing, that person was maybe depressed and maybe 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:42.560 he was getting the only help that was available to 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.760 him in his community, right, and maybe it was a 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:47.680 you know, we look at that and we might go, oh, 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.320 that's weird or that was a little backward, but but 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.360 you know what, like maybe that helped make that guy 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:54.760 feel better just for one day. Yeah, And I'm guilty 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.039 of having pulled that story out before to sort of 0:05:58.080 --> 0:05:59.920 be like, oh, wasn't this weird been you know, looking 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.520 back on it, I have to also, you know, realize 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:05.200 the things about it that we're not weird of all 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.280 weird at all given the context. Yeah, and this is 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.640 going to be especially important in today's episode because we're 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.640 gonna be talking about demon possession and exorcism. We're also 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.800 gonna be talking about another less known practice called addersism. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.880 But it's all going to be in frame of reference 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:25.840 of mental health care and psychology psychological practice today. And 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.160 one of the major theories that we're going to cover 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.080 is that in order to be effective as a mental 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:36.200 health professional in situations like this, you have to be 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:41.640 open and understanding of the cultural beliefs of demon possession 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.400 if you're going to help the person, even if you 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.600 just think, well, they're they're actually schizophrenic or they actually 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:54.720 have uh an identity disorder. Um. So you know, we'll 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.240 we'll condense us back down and return to that later. 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.640 But there's another reason why we wanted to do this 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:02.719 episode this week. We've been talking about doing this for 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.000 a while now. We chose to do it this week 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:10.080 because it's the forty third anniversary of the movie The Exorcist. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.640 So that's why Robert asked, what was my experience, what 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.480 was what's your experience with that movie? I think I 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.600 saw it for the first time when I was in college, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.360 like watched it by myself on a DVD or maybe 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:25.280 even VHS I can't remember, and and being you know, 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.880 profoundly creeped out, not but so not so much by 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:32.440 the big moments of you know, in your face demonic possession, 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.640 but the smaller moments, uh some of what some of 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.960 which I strongly remember, like being like a bazoo zoo 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.640 statue that the child Reagan has made in the background. Uh, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.760 stuff like that I found far more compelling, and also 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.760 think the character uh Arc is pretty good in that too. Yeah. 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.840 I don't think that movie is celebrated enough. I mean 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.000 it is celebrated a lot, and especially in the horror community, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.520 but not enough for the excellent way it builds dread. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.640 It's not for me, I agree with you. It's not 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.800 the like uh special effects makeup and the head spinning 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.680 around and vomit flying around the room. It's like it 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.920 builds dreads so carefully over the course of the movie 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.320 that by the time you get to that stuff, it's effective. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.320 And it's crazy to look back and realize Yeah, this 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:22.800 film came out December ninety three. This was a holiday 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:27.400 release and what a Christmas movie? Yeah, I mean, take 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.000 your grandmother to that over the holiday, I know, I 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:31.880 mean it was it was still the holidays. It was 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.520 granted it was the nixt in years. Uh, And that 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.000 was That's interesting because I started thinking about that. It's like, 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:38.760 all right, maybe there's something about it being the knicks 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.720 in years. This came out, And when did Bladdie's book 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.200 come out? It was a couple of years before that, right, yeah, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.719 I believe so. I don't remember the date off hand. 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.600 But for the audience, the movie is based off of 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.360 supposed nonfiction book by William Peter Blattie, right, or it's 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.040 sort of how how how authentic is does he recognize it? 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:00.800 That I have not. I've read some Bladdy, but I've 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.040 never read The Exorcist, so you can't really really speak 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.480 to it all that. I think that he was a believer. 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:12.520 And my understanding is that the book was somewhat fictionalized 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.080 in the movie was even more fictionalized. Well, the movie 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.360 is interesting when you start piecing it apart. I actually 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.920 ran across a really cool article in History Today about 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.240 the Exorcist. Here's a quote from it. Indeed, Father Marin's 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.600 warning to be aware of the demon's voice as it 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.640 mixes lives with truth is exactly the sort of thing 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.120 President Nixon had begun to say about the American media 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.400 as it probed the breaking story of Watergate. This is 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.880 very interesting, especially because of the episode on heroism that 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.840 we are also doing this we talked about in Nixon 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.600 and Captain America at the time. Wow, yeah, man, that 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.440 that it's interesting. You know, I wasn't alive then, but 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.520 that that presidency really seems to have permeated out into 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.960 the popular culture hive mind. This particular iCal also touched 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.040 on the conflict between science and the forces of darkness, 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.160 which of course is a theme in the movie. But 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.360 there's just one scene and I completely forgot about this, 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.040 but Reagan the child predicts the death of a U 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.559 S astronaut at a part and uh, and yeah, I've 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:18.760 completely forgotten about that. But this is another area where 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.880 modern science is up against dartness. You know, it's dealing 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.400 with modern science is inability to treat something that is 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.439 ultimately a spiritual malady. Uh. It's a fun read. It's 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:31.680 by an author by the name of Nick Cole, and 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.679 it was published back in the year two thousand. So 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:39.000 the Exorcist is everywhere. I mean, we we returned back 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:43.880 to that, and I think still today most people's unless 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:49.079 they have participated in an exorcism, their understanding of exorcism 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.600 is probably the one from that movie. Right. It's very 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:58.920 catholic and ritualistic nature. Uh and uh, it adheres to 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.600 that kind of you know model. Um. And It's what's 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.720 interesting is we're coming back around on it again. There's 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.280 a lot of demon possessions stuff in popular culture. Again, 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.280 there's an Exorcist TV show right now. In fact, I 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.640 believe the week that this episode is publishing, the TV 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.640 show will have just ended. Uh. And I've been watching 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.240 it and it's it's kind of okay. I was surprised. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.320 I thought it was going to be awful, but I, uh, 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.160 it really surprised me. Yeah. Um, it's nowhere near scary, 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.600 isn't is the movie. But it's got some interesting stuff 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:33.080 going on in it. So we're revisiting exorcism. And when 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.400 I say we're revisiting it, it's because Stuff to Blow 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:39.880 Your Mind has previously covered exorcism and cognitive disorder in 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:45.120 an episode with you and in former host Julie Douglas 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.240 and I went back and listened to that episode in 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.640 preparation for this one. Uh, and it's it's great. It's 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:52.600 a it's a So if you if you haven't heard 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:54.800 that episode, maybe go back and listen to that really 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.840 lays the groundwork for um, what we mean by exorcism 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.840 and its connection to mental health. Yeah, but you know, 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.680 don't stop listening now this We're pretty self contained in 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.959 this episode. No spoilers for that episode. Isn't so much 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:10.920 a part one part two. But you know, if you 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.240 dig this episode, you may go back and check that 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:14.679 one out. Will include a link to it on the 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.280 landing page for this episode is stuffitable mind dot com. 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.800 So what do we mean then, what's the definition of possession? Well, 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.480 when we hear that term, what we're commonly referring to, 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:31.359 and keep in mind, possession and exorcism are culturally almost universal. 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.959 They they occur all over the world. Yeah, no matter 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.559 how how much your mind is informed of that idea 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.360 of like the Catholic priest at the bed of the 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.480 possessed individual, it goes beyond that. It refers to a 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.400 hold exerted over a human being by some external force 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.960 that's more powerful than they are. So depending on the culture, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.960 we're talking about demons, maybe ghosts, animistic spirits, gods, or 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.679 even alien entities. I just watched a kind of like 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.600 crappy but good horror movie from two thousand nine called 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.680 The Unborn. Did you ever see that one? No? Is 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.240 this the one that oh the the guy who wrote 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.560 the Blade movies. Yeah, it's David Goya. Yeah, he wrote 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.800 it and directed it. Yeah. Uh, and it the premises, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.480 it's like, this was around that period of time where 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.720 Hollywood was like, oh, we gotta do exorcism movies, but 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.000 not Catholic ones. So there was a divit in it. 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:30.560 The um the Jewish tradition of possession, and the idea 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.719 was there was a divick that was like harassing this 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.360 young girl. Anyways, it's not that great of a movie, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.720 but it goes to show you there's a lot of 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.719 different things. It's not just demons. Sometimes that's your ancestors 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:46.480 maybe or sometimes, uh, the the idea of aliens figures 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.840 into it. It's but the the same central premise is 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:54.600 common almost across all human cultures. It's often accompanied by 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:59.520 something that's referred to in psychology as a possession trance. Now, 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.920 recent studies on this phenomenon have located it within a 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.560 wider social and historical context, So they're basically trying to 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.640 describe it as a way that identity, maybe gender, and 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.000 our bodies are negotiated within our cultures. And these practices 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:21.640 are found in Asia, Africa, America, Latin America, Europe, and Oceania. Now, 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:26.080 exorcism has a different definition. This is the spiritual practice 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.800 has a very long history and it's common in many cultures. 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.920 Like I said, it's aim is to purposefully expel these 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.560 demons or evil spirits from the person or place that 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.480 they've invaded. And and as I said, we all often 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.520 think of the Roman Catholic one. I wonder pre exorcist 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:47.080 if people thought about Catholicism in relation to this. I 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.040 don't know. I mean, it didn't occur to me to 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.640 just now. But you have a very basic biological parallel 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.720 to this, the idea of eating something bad and then 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.120 vomiting it up, you know, or you know, or you're 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.800 digesting something bad and it has to be you know, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.800 expelled out the other end. But that's basically the premise 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.520 something bad has got in you and we gotta get 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.640 it out of you, all right. So you know, I'm 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.360 gonna grow with some familiar notes here on this one, 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.440 because I kind of come back to cultural scripts a 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.600 lot when we're talking about supernatural. But I think it 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.320 is important to just drive home again in exorcisms and 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.920 the paranormal experience of possession adhere to specific cultural scripts. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.680 So the scripts vary. You've got the alien gray script, 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.080 you got the little people, the forest, the ghosts, the devils, 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.640 and there you may be different versions of these wherever 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:38.200 you go, but they provide a ready made, culturally accepted, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.760 really semi accepted set of explanations and qualifying information to 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.640 explain what and why this is occurring, as well as 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.520 a means of potentially addressing it. So something weird happens, 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.960 I want answers. Here is already made answer and perhaps 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:57.800 some hope, very similar to your experience with the snow blindness. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.360 And this reminds me like, um, there's like two different 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.000 kinds of horror right now. There's like the weird, right 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.800 which is like there there's your left with no answers, 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.600 and it's utterly a bizarre experience and you don't really 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.240 have any rule book, right, And then even that's kind 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.000 of an answer. It's like saying you don't know, but 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.920 we can't know. Yeah, exactly, that's true. It's very then, uh, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.320 and then there's like the very like rule oriented horror, 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.840 like a silver bullet will kill a warewolf, wooden stake 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.280 will kill a vampire. And here's how to expel a 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.960 demon who's possessing somebody's body. We need to get ahold 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.200 of this specific ritual. And it's like it's like a 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.640 D and D like manual or something like that at 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.160 the end of day exactly. And if you're trying to 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.200 to make sense of it all, this is where confirmation 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.800 bias comes into picture, into the picture. If you've you've 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:48.040 dragged in this cultural script and Uh. To sum it 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.000 all up, I'd like to read just a quick excellent 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:54.280 summation of confirmation bias from The Drunkard's Walk, How Randomness 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:59.560 Rules Our Lives by Leonard Mlada Now who also did 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.800 some screen writing. He wrote some episodes of I Think 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:07.920 Star Trek, Next Generations and mcgeiver but the old old mcgriya. 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.160 But he said, quote, when we are in the grasp 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.600 of an illusion, or for that matter, whenever we have 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.560 a new idea, instead of searching for ways to prove 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.360 our ideas wrong, we usually attempt to prove them correct. 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.679 Psychologists call this the confirmation bias, and it presents a 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.199 major impediment to our ability to break free from the 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.679 misinterpretation of randomness. To make matters worse, not only do 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.919 we preferentially seek evidence to confirm our preconceived notions, but 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.920 we also interpret ambiguous evidence in favor of our ideas. 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.320 And this can be a big problem because data are 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.200 often ambiguous, and by ignoring some patterns and emphasizing others 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.600 are clever brains can reinforce their beliefs even in the 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:53.560 absence of convincing data. So you know, you have you know, 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.560 you have this checklist for exorcism, you have the script 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.280 for exorcism, you have your your own experience, and you 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.280 end up cherry picking where they want to line up 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.240 and then just to ensure that this is the path, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.320 this is the answer, this is how I'm gonna get 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.520 out of this. Yeah, And when you think about it 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.879 in that regard to it's even more human right of 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.639 an experience it's easier to understand why someone frames the 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:23.680 experience as a possession, right, um, because that's easier to 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:28.080 understand than what may actually be going on mentally, right, 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.680 But of course it's I think it's also important to 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.560 to point out that a cultural script is only going 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.879 to be useful, even cherry picking how it matches up. 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.840 It's only gonna be useful if it fits the underlying, 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.520 you know, reality of the individual. It doesn't matter how 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.600 bizarre or mundane the glove is, right, the glove still 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.919 has to fit a hand. There's still a hand underneath it. 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.199 So that's something to keep in mind as we move 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.679 forward and we start talking about the psychological, uh side 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.480 of what is occurring. Well, let's get into that. So 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.560 there's a lot of literature that exam ends possession and 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:06.320 exorcism as a phenomenon, especially alongside modern mental health practices, 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.880 like so much that Robert and I could not possibly 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:10.679 have read at all for this episode, but we did 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.800 our best. An excellent source for reviewing it, though, that 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.040 I found is by j. Body, and it comes from 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.400 an article he wrote in nine called Spirit Possession Revisited. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.640 This was published in the Annual Review of anthropology. This 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.679 is over twenty years old though, so you know, I 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.000 have to admit like I couldn't really find a more 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.800 current literature review, although I did find a conference paper 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.760 that was published this year by a guy named Joel 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.080 Sanford Uh and his paper was called Facing Our Demons 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:45.560 Psychiatric Perspectives on Exorcism Rituals Runner up because it was 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.680 a conference paper, um, and he did a really good 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.920 literature review in there as well. So both of those 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.439 informed what we're gonna bring to you today. But the 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.359 argument is basically vary from possession leading to a form 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.000 of group therapy, so seeing exorcism the act of an 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.159 exorcism as being grouped therapy on behalf of the individual 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.159 or something like the state itself of being in the 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:15.240 possession trance as being induced by individual stress. But attention 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:19.400 in the literature itself mainly goes to local contexts, the 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.400 cultures that are there, and the power of the human imagination. 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.280 Getting back to this what we're speaking of earlier about 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.920 cultural scripts, researchers have found that possession seems to be 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:35.239 connected to the human endeavor of figuring out ourselves and 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:40.360 our identity is basically who am I? While simultaneously challenging 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:45.359 forms of power in various cultures and in location. Uh so. So, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.160 for instance, the episode that you and Julie did on this, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.879 the major kind of touch tone example that you were 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.360 using was what if somebody is in a culture where 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.119 it's not acceptable to be homosexual, they have homosexual urges, 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.200 and they have this cognitive dison its between what they're 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:07.720 feeling and what they have learned and believe is morally wrong. Right, 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.280 and so that creates this dissonance that can sometimes lead 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.600 to something like the possession trance. Yeah, I mean it's 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.320 basically the cognitive dissonance. Take on it is, Okay, look 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.960 at exorcism. It's an outside force is making me do, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.520 say or think something that I believe to be wrong. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.320 And if you remove the supernatural element there, then you 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:29.280 have a scenario that looks this way, I did said 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.399 or thought something that I believe to be wrong. And 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.119 with this without you know, without any kind of supernatural 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.720 player in it. But and in this you know, you 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:40.240 have to somehow find it a way out of it, right, right. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.040 So this led to a point where in nineteen two 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.760 there was even a proposal to include quote trance and 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:53.680 possession disorder in the official listing of the American Psychological 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.359 Association's d s M four. Uh So, the d s 0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.040 M we talked about all the time on this show. 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.159 It's basically like the hand end book of of of 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.080 mental disorders. I believe we're on the fifth one right now. 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.639 Uh And this proposal was put forth by a somebody 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:12.000 named Etzel Cardana, but it wasn't approved. The whole thing 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:17.120 was controversial because of dissocio identity disorder, schizophrenia, and other 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.640 diagnoses which in and of themselves have controversy that we'll 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.679 talk about later. But trance and possession disorder would have 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.720 identified the psychosis as a diag It would give it 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:33.600 a diagnosis basically that could cross culturally incorporate clear perspectives 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.040 to allow us to understand human consciousness and identity. So 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.400 it was essentially embracing this idea that the possession trance 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:46.399 was universal across cultures. Now, specific example that I found 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:51.280 of psychology trying to understand possession as mental illness within 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.200 the context of the actual patients beliefs is in Jay 0:22:55.359 --> 0:23:00.560 Mercer's study in Mental Health, Religion and Culture, and in 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:04.400 there he seeks to provide counselors and clinicians with an 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:10.680