1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and i'm Christian Sager. Tell 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: me something, Christian, what's your relationship with the Actorcism? Wellism 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: in general? It's funny you should ask. I think I've 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: told the story on this podcast before. But I when 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: I was twelve going into thirteen years old, went to 8 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: a Baptist private school in Florida, and they very much 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: taught us as students there that demon possession was real, uh, 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: and to constantly be on guard from demon possession. And 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: they would um tell us stories of people that they 12 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: had performed exorcisms on and really kind of, you know, 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: literally put the fear of God into us. And I 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: had experience where my family went on vacation that same 15 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: year that I was attending that school. We went skiing 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: and I wasn't wearing um, what do you call him, 17 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: snow goggles when I was skiing and it was a 18 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: really sunny day and the sun was bouncing off of 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: the white snow, and I didn't realize that I was 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: a little kid, and I got snow blindness. That night. 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: I went blind in the middle of the night, I 22 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: woke up and I was blind and I couldn't see anything, 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: and because I had been at the school, I was 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: utterly convinced that I was possessed by a demon and 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: that I couldn't see anything because the demon was in 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: control of my body and the demon was seeing out 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: through me. It really, Uh, I freaked me out. I 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: was pretty traumatized by the whole thing. I was young. Um, 29 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: And therefore the movie The Exorcist was something I avoided 30 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: until I was third Yeah, I pretty much. I always 31 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: knew it was out there, as as you know, I'm 32 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: a horror fan. Uh, and I just always avoided The Exorcist. 33 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: I was like, I know, I like scary movies, but 34 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: I just don't know if I can handle that one. 35 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: And I finally worked up the courage to watch it 36 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: and I and I loved it. And it's I really 37 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: found that there's something there in terms of my storytelling 38 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: that I wanted to use that moment from when I 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: was twelve years old and was so terrified of demon 40 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: possession that I wanted to incorporate into some of my stories. 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: How about you, because I know you've told this, Uh, 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: previous episode about exorcism for stuff to blow your mind. 43 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: I listened to it. But then you've told me this 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: story as well yourself. You actually saw an exorcism, Well 45 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: it was. It was a sort of exorcism. Uh, what 46 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about here is a back room exorcism at 47 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: a late nineties first Baptist church coffee house, youth group 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: coffee house in Fayeville, Tennessee. So to ground it properly 49 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: in the sort of the culture there, uh, spiritual warfares 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: they called. It was kind of a big deal in 51 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: those days, and maybe it still is in many circles. 52 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: And this was the notion that demons and angels are 53 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: actively waged in an invisible war for individual souls. So 54 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: it's the screwtape letters by way of Frank Peretti's This 55 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: Present Darkness, which was like a Christian young adult book 56 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 1: about this kind of spiritual warfare. You know, angels trying 57 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: to get you to do one thing, demons trying to 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: do the other, and then like having a big duke 59 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: out fight. Uh, and all of this too by way 60 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: of youthful enthusiasm to change the world and interact with 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: a hidden magic of the world. So long story short, 62 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: there's a guy at this coffee house. He wasn't feeling 63 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: so hot, so a soft exorcism, I guess you might 64 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: call it was performed to free him of the demon. 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: So there were no weird voices, there's no acting out, 66 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: nobody was tied down or anything. It was just some prayer. Uh. 67 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: And I don't want to knock it too much because 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: looking back on it, you had a case where two 69 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: people reached out to a third person and at least 70 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: temporarily soothed mental anguish via this mild religious practice, this 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: mild religious experience. But of course it all depends on 72 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: what was actually going on with that young man in 73 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: the back of the coffee house. What was he you know, 74 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: what was he actually experiencing or wrestling with and did 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: this actually help or discover it up or or give him, uh, 76 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, a problematic narrative to wrestle with, because ultimately, 77 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: like that's what your story is about. Something traumatic occurred 78 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: and you had no frame of reference for what could 79 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: be occurring except for this supernatural narrative. Yeah. Absolutely, it 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: was like it was the prime narrative that I was 81 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,119 Speaker 1: hearing at the time, And so of course I turned 82 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: right to that. Um. Yeah, I think that, like you know, 83 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: we should point out to at the top of this episode, 84 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: we tried to do this and any topic we're covering, 85 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: whether it's um, you know, ghost marriages or talking about 86 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: combat stimulation drugs in the military. You know, it may 87 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: not be something that is like in Robert in my 88 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: particular lifestyle and again frame of reference. Um, but we're 89 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: we're trying to look at this, you know, positively and 90 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: open minded. So in the sense of exorcism and demon possession. Now, 91 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: as an adult, I don't personally believe in it, but 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: I believe that those people believe. Uh, and that makes 93 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: it just as real, right, And Uh, in the situation 94 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: that you're describing, that person was maybe depressed and maybe 95 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: he was getting the only help that was available to 96 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: him in his community, right, and maybe it was a 97 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, we look at that and we might go, oh, 98 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: that's weird or that was a little backward, but but 99 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: you know what, like maybe that helped make that guy 100 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: feel better just for one day. Yeah, And I'm guilty 101 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: of having pulled that story out before to sort of 102 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: be like, oh, wasn't this weird been you know, looking 103 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: back on it, I have to also, you know, realize 104 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: the things about it that we're not weird of all 105 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: weird at all given the context. Yeah, and this is 106 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: going to be especially important in today's episode because we're 107 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about demon possession and exorcism. We're also 108 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about another less known practice called addersism. 109 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: But it's all going to be in frame of reference 110 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: of mental health care and psychology psychological practice today. And 111 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: one of the major theories that we're going to cover 112 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: is that in order to be effective as a mental 113 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: health professional in situations like this, you have to be 114 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: open and understanding of the cultural beliefs of demon possession 115 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: if you're going to help the person, even if you 116 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: just think, well, they're they're actually schizophrenic or they actually 117 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: have uh an identity disorder. Um. So you know, we'll 118 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: we'll condense us back down and return to that later. 119 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: But there's another reason why we wanted to do this 120 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: episode this week. We've been talking about doing this for 121 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: a while now. We chose to do it this week 122 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: because it's the forty third anniversary of the movie The Exorcist. 123 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: So that's why Robert asked, what was my experience, what 124 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: was what's your experience with that movie? I think I 125 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: saw it for the first time when I was in college, 126 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: like watched it by myself on a DVD or maybe 127 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: even VHS I can't remember, and and being you know, 128 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: profoundly creeped out, not but so not so much by 129 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: the big moments of you know, in your face demonic possession, 130 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: but the smaller moments, uh some of what some of 131 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: which I strongly remember, like being like a bazoo zoo 132 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: statue that the child Reagan has made in the background. Uh, 133 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: stuff like that I found far more compelling, and also 134 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: think the character uh Arc is pretty good in that too. Yeah. 135 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: I don't think that movie is celebrated enough. I mean 136 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: it is celebrated a lot, and especially in the horror community, 137 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: but not enough for the excellent way it builds dread. 138 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: It's not for me, I agree with you. It's not 139 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: the like uh special effects makeup and the head spinning 140 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: around and vomit flying around the room. It's like it 141 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: builds dreads so carefully over the course of the movie 142 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: that by the time you get to that stuff, it's effective. 143 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: And it's crazy to look back and realize Yeah, this 144 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: film came out December ninety three. This was a holiday 145 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: release and what a Christmas movie? Yeah, I mean, take 146 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: your grandmother to that over the holiday, I know, I 147 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: mean it was it was still the holidays. It was 148 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: granted it was the nixt in years. Uh, And that 149 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: was That's interesting because I started thinking about that. It's like, 150 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: all right, maybe there's something about it being the knicks 151 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: in years. This came out, And when did Bladdie's book 152 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: come out? It was a couple of years before that, right, yeah, 153 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: I believe so. I don't remember the date off hand. 154 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: But for the audience, the movie is based off of 155 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: supposed nonfiction book by William Peter Blattie, right, or it's 156 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: sort of how how how authentic is does he recognize it? 157 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: That I have not. I've read some Bladdy, but I've 158 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: never read The Exorcist, so you can't really really speak 159 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: to it all that. I think that he was a believer. 160 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: And my understanding is that the book was somewhat fictionalized 161 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: in the movie was even more fictionalized. Well, the movie 162 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: is interesting when you start piecing it apart. I actually 163 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: ran across a really cool article in History Today about 164 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: the Exorcist. Here's a quote from it. Indeed, Father Marin's 165 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: warning to be aware of the demon's voice as it 166 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: mixes lives with truth is exactly the sort of thing 167 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: President Nixon had begun to say about the American media 168 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: as it probed the breaking story of Watergate. This is 169 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: very interesting, especially because of the episode on heroism that 170 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: we are also doing this we talked about in Nixon 171 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: and Captain America at the time. Wow, yeah, man, that 172 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: that it's interesting. You know, I wasn't alive then, but 173 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: that that presidency really seems to have permeated out into 174 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: the popular culture hive mind. This particular iCal also touched 175 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: on the conflict between science and the forces of darkness, 176 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: which of course is a theme in the movie. But 177 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: there's just one scene and I completely forgot about this, 178 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: but Reagan the child predicts the death of a U 179 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: S astronaut at a part and uh, and yeah, I've 180 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: completely forgotten about that. But this is another area where 181 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: modern science is up against dartness. You know, it's dealing 182 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: with modern science is inability to treat something that is 183 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: ultimately a spiritual malady. Uh. It's a fun read. It's 184 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: by an author by the name of Nick Cole, and 185 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: it was published back in the year two thousand. So 186 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: the Exorcist is everywhere. I mean, we we returned back 187 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: to that, and I think still today most people's unless 188 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: they have participated in an exorcism, their understanding of exorcism 189 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: is probably the one from that movie. Right. It's very 190 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: catholic and ritualistic nature. Uh and uh, it adheres to 191 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: that kind of you know model. Um. And It's what's 192 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: interesting is we're coming back around on it again. There's 193 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: a lot of demon possessions stuff in popular culture. Again, 194 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: there's an Exorcist TV show right now. In fact, I 195 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: believe the week that this episode is publishing, the TV 196 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: show will have just ended. Uh. And I've been watching 197 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: it and it's it's kind of okay. I was surprised. 198 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: I thought it was going to be awful, but I, uh, 199 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: it really surprised me. Yeah. Um, it's nowhere near scary, 200 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: isn't is the movie. But it's got some interesting stuff 201 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: going on in it. So we're revisiting exorcism. And when 202 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: I say we're revisiting it, it's because Stuff to Blow 203 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: Your Mind has previously covered exorcism and cognitive disorder in 204 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: an episode with you and in former host Julie Douglas 205 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: and I went back and listened to that episode in 206 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: preparation for this one. Uh, and it's it's great. It's 207 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: a it's a So if you if you haven't heard 208 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: that episode, maybe go back and listen to that really 209 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: lays the groundwork for um, what we mean by exorcism 210 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: and its connection to mental health. Yeah, but you know, 211 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: don't stop listening now this We're pretty self contained in 212 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: this episode. No spoilers for that episode. Isn't so much 213 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: a part one part two. But you know, if you 214 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: dig this episode, you may go back and check that 215 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: one out. Will include a link to it on the 216 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: landing page for this episode is stuffitable mind dot com. 217 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: So what do we mean then, what's the definition of possession? Well, 218 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: when we hear that term, what we're commonly referring to, 219 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:31,359 Speaker 1: and keep in mind, possession and exorcism are culturally almost universal. 220 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: They they occur all over the world. Yeah, no matter 221 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: how how much your mind is informed of that idea 222 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: of like the Catholic priest at the bed of the 223 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: possessed individual, it goes beyond that. It refers to a 224 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: hold exerted over a human being by some external force 225 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: that's more powerful than they are. So depending on the culture, 226 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about demons, maybe ghosts, animistic spirits, gods, or 227 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: even alien entities. I just watched a kind of like 228 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: crappy but good horror movie from two thousand nine called 229 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: The Unborn. Did you ever see that one? No? Is 230 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: this the one that oh the the guy who wrote 231 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: the Blade movies. Yeah, it's David Goya. Yeah, he wrote 232 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: it and directed it. Yeah. Uh, and it the premises, 233 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: it's like, this was around that period of time where 234 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: Hollywood was like, oh, we gotta do exorcism movies, but 235 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: not Catholic ones. So there was a divit in it. 236 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: The um the Jewish tradition of possession, and the idea 237 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: was there was a divick that was like harassing this 238 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: young girl. Anyways, it's not that great of a movie, 239 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: but it goes to show you there's a lot of 240 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: different things. It's not just demons. Sometimes that's your ancestors 241 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: maybe or sometimes, uh, the the idea of aliens figures 242 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: into it. It's but the the same central premise is 243 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: common almost across all human cultures. It's often accompanied by 244 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: something that's referred to in psychology as a possession trance. Now, 245 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: recent studies on this phenomenon have located it within a 246 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: wider social and historical context, So they're basically trying to 247 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: describe it as a way that identity, maybe gender, and 248 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: our bodies are negotiated within our cultures. And these practices 249 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: are found in Asia, Africa, America, Latin America, Europe, and Oceania. Now, 250 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: exorcism has a different definition. This is the spiritual practice 251 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: has a very long history and it's common in many cultures. 252 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: Like I said, it's aim is to purposefully expel these 253 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: demons or evil spirits from the person or place that 254 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: they've invaded. And and as I said, we all often 255 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: think of the Roman Catholic one. I wonder pre exorcist 256 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: if people thought about Catholicism in relation to this. I 257 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, it didn't occur to me to 258 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: just now. But you have a very basic biological parallel 259 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: to this, the idea of eating something bad and then 260 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: vomiting it up, you know, or you know, or you're 261 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: digesting something bad and it has to be you know, 262 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: expelled out the other end. But that's basically the premise 263 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: something bad has got in you and we gotta get 264 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: it out of you, all right. So you know, I'm 265 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: gonna grow with some familiar notes here on this one, 266 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: because I kind of come back to cultural scripts a 267 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: lot when we're talking about supernatural. But I think it 268 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: is important to just drive home again in exorcisms and 269 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: the paranormal experience of possession adhere to specific cultural scripts. 270 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: So the scripts vary. You've got the alien gray script, 271 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: you got the little people, the forest, the ghosts, the devils, 272 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: and there you may be different versions of these wherever 273 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: you go, but they provide a ready made, culturally accepted, 274 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: really semi accepted set of explanations and qualifying information to 275 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: explain what and why this is occurring, as well as 276 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: a means of potentially addressing it. So something weird happens, 277 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: I want answers. Here is already made answer and perhaps 278 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: some hope, very similar to your experience with the snow blindness. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 279 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: And this reminds me like, um, there's like two different 280 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: kinds of horror right now. There's like the weird, right 281 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: which is like there there's your left with no answers, 282 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: and it's utterly a bizarre experience and you don't really 283 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: have any rule book, right, And then even that's kind 284 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: of an answer. It's like saying you don't know, but 285 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: we can't know. Yeah, exactly, that's true. It's very then, uh, 286 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: and then there's like the very like rule oriented horror, 287 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: like a silver bullet will kill a warewolf, wooden stake 288 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: will kill a vampire. And here's how to expel a 289 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: demon who's possessing somebody's body. We need to get ahold 290 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: of this specific ritual. And it's like it's like a 291 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: D and D like manual or something like that at 292 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: the end of day exactly. And if you're trying to 293 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: to make sense of it all, this is where confirmation 294 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: bias comes into picture, into the picture. If you've you've 295 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: dragged in this cultural script and Uh. To sum it 296 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: all up, I'd like to read just a quick excellent 297 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: summation of confirmation bias from The Drunkard's Walk, How Randomness 298 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: Rules Our Lives by Leonard Mlada Now who also did 299 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: some screen writing. He wrote some episodes of I Think 300 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: Star Trek, Next Generations and mcgeiver but the old old mcgriya. 301 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: But he said, quote, when we are in the grasp 302 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: of an illusion, or for that matter, whenever we have 303 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: a new idea, instead of searching for ways to prove 304 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: our ideas wrong, we usually attempt to prove them correct. 305 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: Psychologists call this the confirmation bias, and it presents a 306 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: major impediment to our ability to break free from the 307 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: misinterpretation of randomness. To make matters worse, not only do 308 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: we preferentially seek evidence to confirm our preconceived notions, but 309 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: we also interpret ambiguous evidence in favor of our ideas. 310 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: And this can be a big problem because data are 311 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: often ambiguous, and by ignoring some patterns and emphasizing others 312 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: are clever brains can reinforce their beliefs even in the 313 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: absence of convincing data. So you know, you have you know, 314 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: you have this checklist for exorcism, you have the script 315 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: for exorcism, you have your your own experience, and you 316 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: end up cherry picking where they want to line up 317 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: and then just to ensure that this is the path, 318 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: this is the answer, this is how I'm gonna get 319 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: out of this. Yeah, And when you think about it 320 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: in that regard to it's even more human right of 321 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: an experience it's easier to understand why someone frames the 322 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: experience as a possession, right, um, because that's easier to 323 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: understand than what may actually be going on mentally, right, 324 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: But of course it's I think it's also important to 325 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: to point out that a cultural script is only going 326 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: to be useful, even cherry picking how it matches up. 327 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: It's only gonna be useful if it fits the underlying, 328 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, reality of the individual. It doesn't matter how 329 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: bizarre or mundane the glove is, right, the glove still 330 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: has to fit a hand. There's still a hand underneath it. 331 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: So that's something to keep in mind as we move 332 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: forward and we start talking about the psychological, uh side 333 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: of what is occurring. Well, let's get into that. So 334 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of literature that exam ends possession and 335 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: exorcism as a phenomenon, especially alongside modern mental health practices, 336 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: like so much that Robert and I could not possibly 337 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: have read at all for this episode, but we did 338 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: our best. An excellent source for reviewing it, though, that 339 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: I found is by j. Body, and it comes from 340 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: an article he wrote in nine called Spirit Possession Revisited. 341 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: This was published in the Annual Review of anthropology. This 342 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: is over twenty years old though, so you know, I 343 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: have to admit like I couldn't really find a more 344 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: current literature review, although I did find a conference paper 345 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: that was published this year by a guy named Joel 346 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: Sanford Uh and his paper was called Facing Our Demons 347 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: Psychiatric Perspectives on Exorcism Rituals Runner up because it was 348 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: a conference paper, um, and he did a really good 349 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: literature review in there as well. So both of those 350 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: informed what we're gonna bring to you today. But the 351 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: argument is basically vary from possession leading to a form 352 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: of group therapy, so seeing exorcism the act of an 353 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: exorcism as being grouped therapy on behalf of the individual 354 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: or something like the state itself of being in the 355 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: possession trance as being induced by individual stress. But attention 356 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: in the literature itself mainly goes to local contexts, the 357 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: cultures that are there, and the power of the human imagination. 358 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: Getting back to this what we're speaking of earlier about 359 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: cultural scripts, researchers have found that possession seems to be 360 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,239 Speaker 1: connected to the human endeavor of figuring out ourselves and 361 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: our identity is basically who am I? While simultaneously challenging 362 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: forms of power in various cultures and in location. Uh so. So, 363 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: for instance, the episode that you and Julie did on this, 364 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: the major kind of touch tone example that you were 365 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: using was what if somebody is in a culture where 366 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: it's not acceptable to be homosexual, they have homosexual urges, 367 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: and they have this cognitive dison its between what they're 368 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: feeling and what they have learned and believe is morally wrong. Right, 369 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: and so that creates this dissonance that can sometimes lead 370 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: to something like the possession trance. Yeah, I mean it's 371 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: basically the cognitive dissonance. Take on it is, Okay, look 372 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: at exorcism. It's an outside force is making me do, 373 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: say or think something that I believe to be wrong. 374 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: And if you remove the supernatural element there, then you 375 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: have a scenario that looks this way, I did said 376 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: or thought something that I believe to be wrong. And 377 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: with this without you know, without any kind of supernatural 378 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: player in it. But and in this you know, you 379 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: have to somehow find it a way out of it, right, right. 380 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: So this led to a point where in nineteen two 381 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: there was even a proposal to include quote trance and 382 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: possession disorder in the official listing of the American Psychological 383 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: Association's d s M four. Uh So, the d s 384 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: M we talked about all the time on this show. 385 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: It's basically like the hand end book of of of 386 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: mental disorders. I believe we're on the fifth one right now. 387 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: Uh And this proposal was put forth by a somebody 388 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: named Etzel Cardana, but it wasn't approved. The whole thing 389 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: was controversial because of dissocio identity disorder, schizophrenia, and other 390 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: diagnoses which in and of themselves have controversy that we'll 391 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: talk about later. But trance and possession disorder would have 392 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: identified the psychosis as a diag It would give it 393 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: a diagnosis basically that could cross culturally incorporate clear perspectives 394 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: to allow us to understand human consciousness and identity. So 395 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: it was essentially embracing this idea that the possession trance 396 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: was universal across cultures. Now, specific example that I found 397 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: of psychology trying to understand possession as mental illness within 398 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: the context of the actual patients beliefs is in Jay 399 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: Mercer's study in Mental Health, Religion and Culture, and in 400 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: there he seeks to provide counselors and clinicians with an 401 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: understanding of specifically Pentecostal exorcism, so that those people can 402 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: help assist with conventional mental health treatments. So this is 403 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: what he he uncovered. Uh, The argument in the paper 404 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: is essentially that mainstream mental health professionals should have sufficient 405 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: understanding of in this case, Pentecostal deliverance principles. Deliverance is 406 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: what they refer to as their exorcism ritual. Uh, in 407 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: order to be effective. Well, the idea, this is the language, 408 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: this is this is the this is the the way 409 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: they're understanding what's wrong with them. So you need to 410 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: be able to speak with them about it on their 411 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: terms exactly. Yeah. Now, the Pentecostal view itself is that 412 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: mental illness, including autism, bipolar disorder, depression, schizophrenia, etcetera, all 413 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: have their direct causes in the presence of demons within 414 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: a victim's body. Now, Dean in this belief system can 415 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: be drawn by a person's intentional participation in sinful actions 416 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: for example, or the sins of related people around them, 417 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: or even accidental events. So for instance, Uh, one of 418 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: the things I mentioned here is that in that in 419 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: that faith. Adopted children are considered more likely to be 420 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: afflicted by demons, as are those who consider abortion as 421 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: an option. Illnesses of those of close people or pets 422 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: even can invite demonic entry through grief, so like if 423 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: you grieve too much, like makes you vulnerable to demon possession. 424 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: And obviously, as you know, you and I are familiar 425 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: with from our upbringings, any association with the occult is 426 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: also thought to attract demons. And finally, a curse can 427 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: bring demonic forces upon a person or family. So I 428 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: just said all those things, and some of you listening 429 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: might have been like, oh, that's all ridiculous, right, Well, 430 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: whether it is or isn't, if your mental health professional 431 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: is trying to help somebody dealing with this specific uh 432 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: disorder here in within this faith, you still need to 433 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: understand that those are the things they believe, right right? Yeah. 434 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean, like everything you described here, especially with the 435 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: you know, the role of sinful acts, all of this, 436 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: it just seems so steeped and cognitive dissonance, And in 437 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: order to reach them you kind of have to They've 438 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: built a barrier out of the cognitive distance that you 439 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: have to be able to break through. Um. Back in 440 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, social psychologist Leon Festinger who coined the term, 441 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 1: He argued that there are three ways to deal with 442 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance, all right, And I think the easy way 443 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: to think of this is, oh I have You could say, oh, 444 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: I have homosexual feelings. But but I but I'm a 445 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: member of a faith that that says that that is sinful. Right, 446 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: So one thing you can do is a person may 447 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: change one or more of their behaviors or beliefs. So 448 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: you can either change what you believe to where it 449 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: lines up with how you are, or you change how 450 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: you are to line up with your belief Sometimes that's 451 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: an option, sometimes it's not. Number two, This an idea 452 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: here is that a person might try to acquire new 453 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: information or beliefs to increase the agreement between the two, 454 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: which will lessen the overall dissonance. So this might be 455 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: all right, I'm maybe I'm not gonna go from Pentecostal 456 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: to atheists, but maybe I'll find another like branch of 457 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: Christianity easier transition. It's somewhere where I I can fit 458 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: in his met and still hold these values. And then 459 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: number three, a person may try to forget or play 460 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: down the importance of the cognition that's butting up against 461 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: the contradictory cognition. So if you can't change the way 462 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: that you think or behavior, you're unable or unwilling to 463 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: change the thing that you believe. The only solution is 464 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: to go with two or three. And number two is 465 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: is where we see the possible demonic possession, because you 466 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: might not change from Pentecostal to U you know, you know, 467 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: United Church of Christ or something. You might just say 468 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: it's the demon You might choose that mode. Well, so 469 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: in the Pentecostal faith, the results of demonic possession and 470 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: again this is I don't I don't have personal experience 471 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: with Pentecostal faith. This is from the paper. The results 472 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: are linked to an extensive list of physical and mental ills. 473 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: So these are essentially symptoms infertility, obesity, asthma, seizure disorders 474 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: a d h D, schizophrenia, alcoholism and drug use, UH 475 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: and disobedience or nightmares and children are attributed to demonic activity. 476 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: That makes me think of sleep paralysis and night terrors, 477 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: which we've discussed before. Um. But Mercer in this paper 478 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: goes on to describe deliverance the entire ritual. I'm not 479 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: going to go through it here. Definitely check out the 480 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: paper if you're interested. Um, but it's worth for him. 481 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: The idea is, basically, this is a manual I'm giving 482 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 1: you mental health professionals so that you can be involved 483 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: in this process. Like if you have a patient that 484 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: comes to you and says, I need help, but I 485 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: do believe this and this is my faith system, then 486 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: the mental health counselor can turn to Mercer's paper, read 487 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: through it, and have a better understanding of what they're 488 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: getting into and how to basically communicate with their patient. 489 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: So why don't we take a quick break, and when 490 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 1: we get back, let's talk about a term that maybe 491 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: you haven't heard before that's in relation to demon possession, 492 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: sort of the opposite of exorcism, and it's called addersism. 493 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: All right, we're back. So the classic idea is someone 494 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: comes to the exorcist and says, hey, I got this demon. 495 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Him and his demons making me do things that I 496 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: don't want to do, make me think things I don't 497 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: want to think. Can you rip that sucker out of me? 498 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: And we can go our separate ways. What happens when 499 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: you go to the the adder system instead of the exercist. Yeah. Well, 500 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: it turns out that it's This is a practice that 501 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: was observed by a guy named Luke de Hoysch, and 502 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: he's the one who really coined the term adder sism. 503 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: He saw it as the opposite of exorcism, where the 504 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: practices are aimed at integrating the spiritual into t into 505 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,239 Speaker 1: a person or place instead of expelling it. So this 506 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: is it's kind of like the Dark Crystal scenario. Instead 507 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: of instead of killing off the skexies or driving the 508 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: skexies away, you realize that the the mystics and the 509 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: skexies should be melded together into one uh ideal being. Yeah, yes, somewhat. Yeah. Um. 510 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: It's regarded as having a healing, beneficial practice, and it 511 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: implies an open attitude toward what is normally perceived as 512 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: negative and antagonistic to understand its real nature. So let's 513 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: um place this within the context of the movie The Exorcist, 514 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: so everybody understands the most. So in this case, the 515 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: priests would come in to Reagan's bedroom and she'd be 516 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: flowing around vomiting and stuff, and they would accept that 517 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: malevolent entity within her and try to beneficially integrate it 518 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: either into her or into themselves. Now, it seems like 519 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: it's more often from what I was reading, that the 520 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: the practitioner of addersism absorbs the spirit into themselves integrates 521 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: it into themselves, than the other way around, although there 522 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: was some contrary stuff going on in the In the literature, 523 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: Hoist himself describes addicism as accommodating these spirits and establishing 524 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: them within a medium, which is usually like a shaman 525 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: inform um. Now you're wondering, who's this the Hoish guy? 526 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: Why should I care? You know what he says? Well, 527 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: he was a Belgian polymath who focused on anthropology and 528 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: filmmaking who's pretty well known within France's academic system. He 529 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: was a passionate proponent of Claude leve Strauss's structuralism, and 530 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: he applied that in his study of cultures in Central Africa, 531 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: of which he was an expert on their religions, myths 532 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: and art. So while he was studying these like he 533 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: went in person to these uh adicism or adder cystic rituals. 534 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: Uh he would he basically, you know, I saw them 535 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: as a version of the possession trance that we were 536 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: talking about earlier, and he argued that it was a 537 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: psycho physiological state that involved a transformation of the state 538 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: of consciousness. Now within this, this is where he brings 539 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: in shamanism, which I know is is something that you're 540 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: very interested in and has been discussed on the show before. Um. 541 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: He tied that together with possession and dreams and sleepwalking 542 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: and modern hypnosis. And he also drew parallels between altered 543 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: states that are brought on by techno music, at least 544 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: that's what he referred to it at the time, uh, 545 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: and trances which maybe they didn't have the term trance 546 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: music that uh. In fact, he saw dance and music 547 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: as being a universal artistic manifestation that often accompanied states 548 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: of trance linked to possession or shamanism. Uh. And he 549 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: also notes, don't forget that shamanism, especially self induced shamanistic trances, 550 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: usually involved some kind of hallucinogenic substance. So that that 551 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: that just landed on two of your age your interests, right, 552 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: shamanism and dance music. Yeah, and uh yeah, yeah, they're 553 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: a number of things lining up for me here. Yeah, 554 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: because all of these things have have have proven transformative 555 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: powers when it comes to you know, to consciousness and 556 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: uh and perceptions of reality. So addercism is basically what 557 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: he calls deliberate possession. The idea is that the shaman's 558 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: goal is to retrieve the abducted soul from quote, the 559 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: sickness from the gods, and they basically root out the 560 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: undesirable element that resides in the person's body. Now, in 561 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: an exorcism of shaman would drive out that undesirable spirit, 562 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: but in addercism, they enter a trance themselves to extra 563 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: pay the spirit from their patient and incorporated into themselves 564 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: to then be expelled afterward. Now note for a second here, 565 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: exorcism and addercism are not practiced simultaneously, at least according 566 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: to the Hoist, and they're totally separate, distinct rituals. A 567 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: shaman controls and confronts these spirits while the possessed is 568 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: subjected to them. Okay, so it's it's basically ghostbusting. I'm 569 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: taking the ghost from you and I'm putting in in 570 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: my Yeah, I've got my trap yeah yeah uh. And 571 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: the ghost trap, I'm the physical ghost trap yeah uh. 572 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: And so again, like he connects it to shamanism. Uh, 573 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: and he sees that the shaman this is what allows 574 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: them to acquire spirit allies. It's basically the same premise 575 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 1: that we you know, we we sort of understand as 576 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: shamanistic practice around the world. The Hoist distinguished shamanism in 577 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: possession is being totally separate things. Now, this was followed 578 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: up on in two in an article in the Journal 579 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: of Anthropology, basically saying that in cultures with male dominated religions, 580 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: women are subject to illness that is attributed to spirit possession, 581 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: and that to treat this, the process of addersism is 582 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: often used, and that this is a form of quote 583 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: domesticating the spirit. It's argued that these afflictions in their 584 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: treatment served then as an instrument that retains male power. So, 585 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: for instance, by applying addersism to Christian, Muslim, and Buddhist 586 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: possession settings, the authors of this paper essentially said that 587 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: the distinction between it and exorcism isn't isn't necessarily as 588 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: contradictory as it would first appear. That they're both tools 589 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: of basically ensuring male dominance. And I thought that was 590 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 1: interesting and it was written I believe after Detische died. 591 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: Now I want to bring in one other theory here 592 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: that is that complicates things. We talked about possession, and 593 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: we talked about addersism, and we're also, you know, circling 594 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: around exorcism. But one thing that I hadn't heard of 595 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: and doesn't really make its way into the exorcist lore. 596 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: Actually until the TV show recently they did did bring 597 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: this into the TV show You've got a longer show run. 598 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: You got a new ideas, right, is the idea of 599 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: demon integration. Uh. According to the Catholic belief system, there 600 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: are different stages of attachment during demon possession. There's oppression, obsession, possession, 601 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: and finally integration. And the last stage occurs when the 602 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: person who is you know, being subjected to this chooses 603 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: to accept the demon. And I thought this was particularly 604 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: interesting because we use the same term integration when we're 605 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: referring to one of the treatments for dissociative identity disorder, 606 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: a disorder that is often used synonymously along with possession. 607 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: It's interesting because this this list that you you mentioned 608 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: here possession, oppression, obsession, possession, and integration. Depending on what 609 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: your individual demon might be, I could see this is 610 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: a very positive journey to go on. You know, it's like, oh, 611 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: this this thing that I am, it's uh oh, it's 612 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: it's it's oppressing me all right now, and I'm just 613 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: really into it is all that's going on, and then 614 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: it's it's it's taking over me a little bit, and 615 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: then oh, it's just a part of who I am exactly. Yeah, 616 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: So it's really interesting that these terms overlap. Now, I 617 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: couldn't find a lot of like hard, you know, pure 618 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: viewed research on demon integration. A lot of what I 619 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: found were like Catholic websites, uh, interviews with a supposed exorcists, 620 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: things like that when you get into the very like 621 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: the fringy kind of uh yeah. Basically, from what I 622 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: could tell is like the idea here, at least in 623 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: the Catholic belief system, is that integration is a bad thing, right, Like, 624 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: if a demon integrates with your human personality, uh, your 625 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: soul is dead. And and in the TV show they 626 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: basically say something to that effect. They're like, oh, like, 627 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: if this goes too far, they're going to integrate and 628 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: then she's lost forever something to that effect, right, Um, 629 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: But we see it very differently in a mental health situation. Yeah, 630 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: very very differently. Alright, we're gonna take a quick break 631 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: and we come back. We will dive into a disassociative 632 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: identity disorder. All right, we're back, So okay. There are 633 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: obvious parallels between what we have been calling possession so 634 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: far with what is now referred to as dissociative identity disorder. 635 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: But let's give a little bit of a primer for 636 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: everybody on what we mean by that when we're talking 637 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: about it. In psychological terms, it's characterized as an involuntary 638 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: escape from reality with a disconnection of thoughts, identity, consciousness, 639 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: and memory. And it's estimated that two percent of people 640 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: experience a dissociative disorder of some type, not dissociative identity disorder, 641 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: that's a subcategory. The symptoms usually develop in response to 642 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: a traumatic event in order to help the person keep 643 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 1: their memories of that event under control, and treatment involves 644 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: a combination of psychotherapy and medication. Now, symptoms of this 645 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: can include memory loss, out of body experiences, depression, anxiety, 646 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: and a lack of self identity. Sounds like possession, right, 647 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: A lot of the similar symptoms uh or at least 648 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: two possession trance as it's referred to now the d 649 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: s M identifies that there's three types of dissociative disorders. 650 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: There's dissociative amnesia, and that's where your main symptom is 651 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: that you you don't remember important information about yourself. There's 652 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: depersonalization disorder, which involves ongoing feelings of detachment, as if 653 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: you're kind of like watching your life play out as 654 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: a movie. And then there's dissociative identity disorder, and that's 655 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: when we're going to focus on here. It was known 656 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: as multiple personality disorder until we don't use that term 657 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: any more, at least in we at least in the 658 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: psychological discipline. They don't use that term, and it's characterized 659 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: by the patient alternating between identities. These identities can alternately 660 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: take control of the individual individual, so they experienced memory law, 661 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: so there might be some of that amnesia part. So 662 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: it's important to note that this isn't a proliferation of 663 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: separate identities the way we now define it as identity fragmentation, 664 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: which is I think why they changed the terminology. It's 665 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: a pretty controversial diagnosis to um, Yeah, this is kind 666 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: of the realm of superstar psychology and TV movies. Yeah, totally. 667 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: I mean, like, isn't there some movie coming out soon 668 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: with um, the guy who plays Professor X in those 669 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: X Men movies, not Patrick Stewart, the younger one, James McAvoy, 670 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: where he's got like a dissociated identity disorder and like 671 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: captures a bunch of teenage girls. Have you seen the trailer. 672 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: It's some like horror movie that's coming up. So yeah, 673 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: it's very much like popular in pop psych, especially as 674 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,879 Speaker 1: applied to like storytelling. All right, but it's it's more 675 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: that actual instead of like, oh, I'm a pirate, I'm 676 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: a and this and that and the other. It's these 677 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: are different fragments of who you are already. So in 678 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: some of those interpretations you can see where they might 679 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: line up with with this idea that you're becoming separate people, 680 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: but we're all this kind of assembly of separate people. Yeah, exactly. Uh. 681 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Brain imaging has corroborated identity transition 682 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: in some patients, so there is some empirical evidence that 683 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: it's it's it's real. Today, we understand it as a 684 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: failure to integrate the various aspects of our identity, our memory, 685 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 1: and our consciousness into a singular self. Personality states within 686 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: this now they're referred to as altars, and they have 687 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: characteristics that distinctly contrast the individual's primary identity. Now, how 688 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: does this all relate to demon possession? Okay? In nine one, 689 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: a guy named MG. Kenny. I think this is the 690 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: first person who published a paper linking the two things together. 691 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: And Kenny described multiple personality because that's what was described 692 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: at the time as being surrounded by a halo of 693 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: the occult. He reviews in this paper the intellectual history 694 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: of the relationship between dissociative identity disorder and possession, and 695 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 1: then he outlines all their relationships and basically a conclusion 696 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: is that the connections between these two things became suspect 697 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: as the belief in possession declined. So it was it 698 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: was like the um the actual like psychological disorder, was 699 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: sort of tainted by possessions sort of occult background. So 700 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: basically we got a better script to describe what was happening, 701 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,959 Speaker 1: and then we got an even even better scripts and 702 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: so that for a while led to to a decline 703 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: an interest in multiple personalities and the frequency of their 704 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: reported cases. But the D S M. Five does state 705 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: the following about dissociative identity disorder, and quoting this here, 706 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: it says, in settings where normative possession is common, the 707 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: fragmented identities may take the form of possessing spirits, deities, demons, animals, 708 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: or mythical figures. So there's a pretty direct connection there 709 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: in the Manual of Psychiatric Disorders that connects demon possession 710 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: to this particular disorder. Now, in a study conducted for 711 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: the Journal of Psychology and Theology, researchers found that dissocio 712 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: identity disorder lined up with cases of possession that they 713 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: looked at as well. And they looked at forty seven 714 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: incidents of exorcism that were conducted on fifteen different patients, 715 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: and they found five types of exorcism that used eight 716 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: methodological factors within their context. And these included the patient's 717 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: permission that the exorcism was non coercive, active participation by 718 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: the patient, and understanding of dissociative identity disorder dynamics by 719 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: the exorcist, implementation of the exorcism within the context of 720 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: psycho psychotherapy, the compatibility of the procedure with the patient's 721 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: spiritual beliefs, incorporation of the patient's belief system and encouraging 722 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 1: the patient's independence regarding exorcism. So you can see here 723 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: like where this is going there in that paper, they're 724 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: sort of making the argument that the exorcist should be 725 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: aware of the psychological theories surrounding dissociative identity disorder, and 726 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: these other papers we talked about earlier, they're basically saying, well, 727 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 1: the mental health professionals should be aware of the ritualistic 728 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: practices of exorcism. So they're they're sort of trying to 729 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: get these parties to meet the middle for the benefit 730 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: of their patients. Now, another study that I looked at 731 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: in the two thousand one Journal of Psychology and Theology 732 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: that examined incorporating the patient's view of the perceived demons 733 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: into their therapy, so by empowering their spirituality and going 734 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: along with the exorcism. There's case studies that have shown 735 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: both positive and negative results. So the idea is used 736 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: non coercive methods within the patient's own worldview, while still 737 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: understanding that there's psychological dynamics probably associated with the associative 738 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,479 Speaker 1: identity disorder going on. Now, whether or not you're talking 739 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: about a demon or you're talking about an alter personality. 740 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: Leave that to the patient is essentially the argument of 741 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: this pagent. Okay, so don't don't engage and encourage it 742 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: beyond what is useful to communicating with the patient about 743 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: their problems. Yeah, exactly. Now this leads us to integration. 744 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: So remember you know, before the break we refer that 745 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: integration in the Catholic Faith is very different from integration 746 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: that's seen as a potential treatment for dissociative identity disorder. Well, 747 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: what does that mean? Exactly? This is again something that 748 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: I had difficulty locating like a really solid definition of It. 749 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 1: Seems like something that the discipline is in the process of, um, 750 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: I guess negotiating and trying to decide about whether or 751 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: not like it has official designation. But there's an article 752 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: that I found, uh for something called the Sidron Institute, 753 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: which is a nonprofit that says its mission is to 754 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: help people recover from trauma and dissociative disorders. And it 755 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: was written by a woman named Rachel Downing. Uh. She 756 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: writes the following about integration as it relates to dissociative 757 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: identity disorder. It's worth noting too she is both a 758 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,320 Speaker 1: trained therapist and a fully integrated former dissociative identity disorder patients, 759 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: So she's speaking from experience as well as expertise. The 760 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: way she about it as an integration, it's not really 761 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: understood as a treatment, and it's it's controversial both with 762 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: therapists and patients alike. Some patients expressed fear of integration, uh, 763 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: and they see it as being a disrespectful of the 764 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: role that their alter personalities have played in their own survival. So, 765 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: for instance, like whatever traumatic event may be caused the 766 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: dissociative disorder in the first place, that personality helped you cope. Right, Yeah, Like, 767 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: I guess the like simplistic example that comes to mind, 768 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of this would be like, all right, 769 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: this individual has they they've splintered, and so like there's 770 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 1: normal them and sexy them. Instead of like their sexy 771 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: self being a part of who they are, it has 772 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: become separated and is its own thing for whatever reason. Sure, yeah, yeah, um, 773 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: but it could be a survival tactic as well, Like 774 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 1: I had to separate the sexy side of me in 775 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: order to you know, deal with societal norms or you know, 776 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: deal with some sort of trauma. Yeah, or you know, 777 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: some people would say, depending on the cultures, Oh that's 778 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: sexy side of me, that's a demon. I'm possessed by 779 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,280 Speaker 1: that demon and it's making me do those things. Yeah. Um. 780 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: So therapists are encouraged to not actually discuss integration as 781 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: a possibility until later stages of therapy with the dissociative 782 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: identity disorder patients. According to Downing, some consider it to 783 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 1: be a personal choice. So it hasn't really been ironed 784 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: out as like this is the way to go. It's 785 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: not like you there's one path for that kind of 786 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: therapy and it always results in integration. But the way 787 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: she defines it is essentially a means of acceptance and 788 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: ownership for the thoughts, feelings, and memories that are labeled 789 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 1: as personalities belonging to quote me, Uh, you give up 790 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: the split that says that something is not me, and 791 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: you accept all those dissociated aspects of oneself. So it's 792 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: this is a process that occurs in therapy over a 793 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: long period of time. It's not like a singular event 794 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like I'm thinking of like one 795 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: of those movies, like wasn't Sybil that movie from like 796 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: the eighties, the TV movie about multi personality disorder. So yeah, 797 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: I don't like but I don't remember that movie very well, 798 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: but I imagine that it had some ending where it 799 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,879 Speaker 1: was just like there's some event and she's just like, 800 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: I'm whole again, I'm integrated, you know, And that's not 801 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: how it works. So it's important to distinguish that integration 802 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,760 Speaker 1: from the integration that's associated with possession in the sense of, 803 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, the demon fully taken control of your body. 804 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 1: So this now leads to a question here. So we've 805 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,879 Speaker 1: talked about exorcism, possession, addercism, and all the mental health 806 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 1: stuff surrounding these practices. Now I'm really curious, is are 807 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: any of these like a form of integration in the 808 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: sense of integrating dissociated identity disorders. So like addersism, for instance, 809 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: when I first heard about it, it struck me like, well, okay, 810 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 1: this is seen as like a more beneficial, positive kind 811 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 1: of therapeutic method, right, um, but it's not really integration 812 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 1: per se, and that like the persona, the demon is 813 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 1: still being pulled out of the person and but it's 814 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,320 Speaker 1: being placed into the shaman, right, and then the shaman 815 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: I guess expels it later. But are there models of 816 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 1: that where the shaman brings the two together. Yeah, I'm 817 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,759 Speaker 1: not sure. I'm not sure, and I'm I'm really curious, Like, 818 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,839 Speaker 1: I couldn't find any literature on the idea of that 819 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: in um any religious culture like that. Integration is a 820 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,799 Speaker 1: good thing. Well, I guess it boils down to the 821 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,439 Speaker 1: fact that so many of these, like even the multiple personalities, 822 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: to certain extent it it makes an other out of 823 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,279 Speaker 1: an aspect of yourself. And in order for integration to 824 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 1: make sense, you have to realize there is no other. 825 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: These are all aspects of myself. And uh, if you're 826 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: already playing with the language of the demonic and the spiritual, 827 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,879 Speaker 1: it might not be at all, um something you would want. Now, 828 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,279 Speaker 1: certainly there are cases where, you know, plenty of traditional 829 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,359 Speaker 1: beliefs where one intentionally, usually temporarily, like fuses would say 830 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: an animal spirit right right, Well, and that's shamanistic, right, 831 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: the idea that like they're calling the spirit to them 832 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: as an ally accusing with them that way. Yeah, maybe 833 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,319 Speaker 1: that's integrative. Is that the right way to describe it? Uh? 834 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:39,720 Speaker 1: Maybe that's integration, Uh, in the sense that they're doing 835 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 1: it purposefully. But I wonder, like I wonder if there's 836 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 1: a cultural example of somebody who's considered to be possessed 837 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: and they sort of like shamanistic lee take control of 838 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 1: that spirit incorporated into themselves and it's seen as an 839 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: ally though, it's seen as a good thing, in the 840 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: same way that the integral Sian and dissociated identity disorder 841 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: is seen as you know, claiming your yourself as as 842 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 1: having you know, multiple facets sort of digest your demons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 843 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,399 Speaker 1: I'm curious about that, you know. To uh, to draw 844 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,400 Speaker 1: a line in the sand here on the healium powers 845 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: of exorcism rituals, I'd like to point out a two 846 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen paper published in the Journal of Religion and 847 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:34,879 Speaker 1: Health by Turkish researcher M. Kamal Irmack, titled Schizophrenia or Possession. Uh. 848 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: Some of you may be familiar with this already, because 849 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: it caused quite a stir when it came out, at 850 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: a fair amount of controversy. He sent this to me 851 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: this morning, and my jaw drop, Yeah, because you read it, 852 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,279 Speaker 1: you and you're like, wait, he's not actually saying the 853 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 1: saying what I just thought he said. I mean, no, 854 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,839 Speaker 1: he actually is. He. Here's a quick quote from it. 855 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 1: He says, we thought that many so called hallucinations and 856 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: schizophrenia are really illusions related to a real environmental stimulus. 857 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,799 Speaker 1: Illusions are transformations of perceptions, with a mixing of the 858 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,799 Speaker 1: reproduced perceptions of the subject's fantasy with real perceptions. One 859 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: approach to this hallucination problem is to consider the possibility 860 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 1: of a demonic world. So yes, he goes on to 861 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 1: argue too, say, what of auditory hallucinations, which are a 862 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, a common symptom of a number of different, 863 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: uh psychological conditions, including schizophrenia, what these are really demons? 864 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: So this may sound weird coming from us because we 865 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,799 Speaker 1: just spent two episodes talking about John D in his 866 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: communications with angels and demons. Keep in mind, John D 867 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 1: was like four years ago, and at that time, you know, 868 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:47,840 Speaker 1: magical ideas like that were inherently connected to math and science. 869 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,319 Speaker 1: To see something like this published today in like a 870 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: pure viewed journal really kind of shocked me because I 871 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: can see the author having this belief and write the 872 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: paper and maybe even doing it in such a way 873 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: that is um disciplined, right, But I would have a 874 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,440 Speaker 1: really hard time understanding the thought process behind the board 875 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: at the journal itself that's publishing it, other than I 876 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: guess like this will get us attention. Yeah, I mean 877 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: it certainly got some attention, and a lot of people 878 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: were up in arms over a that he would write 879 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: this and be that the journal would publish. And how however, 880 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,279 Speaker 1: putting that aside, and of course casting aside any scientific 881 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,279 Speaker 1: consideration that there are demons, let's do it. Putting all 882 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,240 Speaker 1: that aside, it is interesting that the nature of schizophrenic voices, 883 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 1: these auditory hallucinations, that that we hears voices, They differ 884 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,839 Speaker 1: from culture to culture, with an overall trend in non 885 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: Western societies for the voices to take a less negative 886 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: or even positive uh spirit uh. This relationship was actually 887 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 1: brought to light by Stanford University anthropologist Tanya Lureman in 888 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,960 Speaker 1: a paper polished in January two thousand, fifteen edition of 889 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: British Journal of Psychiatry. And the idea here is that, 890 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,719 Speaker 1: especially in America, we approach the mind, is this this 891 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 1: fortress of private thoughts? Perhaps that the last fortress for 892 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: any kind of privacy, and that the schizophrenic brain is 893 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,399 Speaker 1: just a cracked vessel and all our secrets will spill out. 894 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 1: As such, we have a tendency to focus on the 895 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,440 Speaker 1: strangest and in some cases the most harmful voices in 896 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,720 Speaker 1: the mind. Uh when you know schizophrenia is in play. However, 897 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 1: Indians and Africans in this study, specifically in individuals in 898 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,719 Speaker 1: India and individuals in Ghana, we're influenced by ideas of 899 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,280 Speaker 1: relationships over individuality and the possibility of benign and positive 900 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,640 Speaker 1: communications with spirits. So she looked at in this paper, 901 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,040 Speaker 1: she looked at twenty patients in Ghana, India, and in 902 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,200 Speaker 1: the US. Granted, not a huge sample size, but you know, 903 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,239 Speaker 1: a starting point and I think it's still serves as 904 00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 1: a pretty good illustration. So in the U, s patients 905 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: fourteen of the twenty heard voices that told them to 906 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,880 Speaker 1: hurt other people or themselves, Five described hearing voices of 907 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: conflict or battle, and none reported positive experiences. So all 908 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:16,960 Speaker 1: of these schizophrenic auditorius hallucination voices, they were all negative. 909 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,160 Speaker 1: In India, thirteen of the twenty patients heard voices of 910 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 1: kin family members offering guidance, scolding, or telling them to 911 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,919 Speaker 1: do certain household chores. These voices voices were regarded as 912 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,960 Speaker 1: good and even if they were demanding or even frightening, 913 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,280 Speaker 1: and only four out of the twenty heard harmful voices. 914 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,240 Speaker 1: And in Ghana, sixteen patients reported hearing God or another deity, 915 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,960 Speaker 1: Ten described voices and entirely or mostly positive, and others 916 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: heard bad voices but insisted that the good voices, usually gods, 917 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,600 Speaker 1: were more powerful. Only two people in that group said 918 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: that the voices told them to kill or fight or 919 00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 1: enact violence. So this can really show you that, like, 920 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: even though the idea of like a possession trance is 921 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:10,640 Speaker 1: universal across human experience, that depending on the culture, what 922 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 1: they're what they're going to take away from that is 923 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 1: very different, right, um. And it seems to indicate that 924 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: our culture is inherently uh negative and violent, at least 925 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,960 Speaker 1: in the sense of like what we're repressing, or at 926 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 1: least that the identities that are fracturing, right, I mean, 927 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,000 Speaker 1: because even if you're in in the U. S. Patient, 928 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,760 Speaker 1: even if you're completely putting aside any you know, visions 929 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,960 Speaker 1: of the exorcist or what have you, you still have 930 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,720 Speaker 1: you you're can have that very clinical, maybe even media 931 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:43,360 Speaker 1: driven idea of what schizophrenia is, like what the what 932 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,440 Speaker 1: the the experience of the voices is like, and it's 933 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,359 Speaker 1: gonna always take that that negative approach, or at least 934 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,560 Speaker 1: that that's what the the results seem to indicate here 935 00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,719 Speaker 1: and yet in in India and God, i'd love to 936 00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,279 Speaker 1: see further research on this, like just do like a 937 00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,800 Speaker 1: cross cultural examination around the world, but it seems like 938 00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,839 Speaker 1: an Indian and Ghana they're very different and sometimes beneficial 939 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: maybe yeah, or at least it's like, uh, in the 940 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 1: paper she talks about in India, for example, you have 941 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,680 Speaker 1: there's a there's often this case where they'll be the 942 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,040 Speaker 1: individual that's suffering from voices and they're kind of regarded 943 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,240 Speaker 1: as all right, they're they're a little weird or they 944 00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 1: have you know, they they hear voices, but they're okay. 945 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's not a call of the authority situation 946 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,840 Speaker 1: in many cases. Uh. And it's it's important to note 947 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: that these unreal voices, that that that the the schizophrenic 948 00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,200 Speaker 1: individual hears like they can even drown out real world voices. 949 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: Studies have shown, and one of the accepted strategies has 950 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,360 Speaker 1: always been for the patient to learn to cope with 951 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,520 Speaker 1: and ignore the voices. In some cases with the aid 952 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: of of medication. But but generally you often hear this, 953 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 1: this idea that you do not speak back to the 954 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: voices in your head. So that's the opposite of integration. 955 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: It's basically like an avoidance tactic and conflict resolution, Like 956 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,720 Speaker 1: instead of grading that into your personality and accepting it 957 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,560 Speaker 1: and communicating with it, you just pretend it's not there, 958 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 1: or a or varying levels of straight up exorcism. It's 959 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,360 Speaker 1: like I'm either going to drive the voice away with 960 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,640 Speaker 1: medication and or the demon will leave if I just 961 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: stopped paying attention to right. But there's another approach out 962 00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,400 Speaker 1: there that takes uh it really reminds me of integration 963 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,400 Speaker 1: a lot more. And that's an example we see with 964 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,160 Speaker 1: the Hearing Voices Network. This is an international community of 965 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 1: voice here is founded in by Dutch social psychiatrist Maurice Rome, 966 00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,880 Speaker 1: and in his model, voices are not signs of illness 967 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,240 Speaker 1: but bears of clues about traumatic histories. So these are 968 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:47,440 Speaker 1: metaphorical emotional storage uh um nodes in our minds that 969 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,160 Speaker 1: need to be worked out essentially integrated. Yeah, it's like 970 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,880 Speaker 1: just just in like the last like I don't know 971 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,880 Speaker 1: how long we've been recording forty minutes or an hour 972 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,120 Speaker 1: or whatever we've struck upon like at least, like I 973 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: don't know, six or seven different cultural approaches to this 974 00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:09,160 Speaker 1: idea of possession. Uh, whether it's an approach that says 975 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,120 Speaker 1: these are demons or these are ghosts, or these are 976 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: mental health issues. And it really seems like, you know, 977 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:18,880 Speaker 1: again bringing it back to what we were saying at 978 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: the beginning, like the people that believe, regardless of whether 979 00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:26,880 Speaker 1: or not it's real, they're in pain, like they're they're 980 00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:31,760 Speaker 1: experiencing suffering, and in order to help them, uh with that, 981 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: you really have to approach it from multiple angles, Like 982 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 1: you have to be both uh willing to embrace the 983 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,240 Speaker 1: sort of scientific side of this is what we know 984 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:48,640 Speaker 1: about these psychological disorders and how to treat them, alongside 985 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,240 Speaker 1: this is what we know about the patient's cultural beliefs, 986 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,840 Speaker 1: the context surrounding them, and how that may help them 987 00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,520 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, it really makes the prospect of ghost 988 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:04,120 Speaker 1: busting all the more problematic because they imagine, like, based 989 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:05,680 Speaker 1: on what we've been talking about here, can you imagine 990 01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: an actual ghostbuster walking to in a house and having 991 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:12,080 Speaker 1: to deal with the very you know, eon esque descriptions 992 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,040 Speaker 1: of what what level spirit this is and how we're 993 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:19,400 Speaker 1: going to remove it using this nuclear device versus, Oh, 994 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,960 Speaker 1: that's the spirit of my grandma. That's she's here because 995 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,480 Speaker 1: I disappointed her. Yeah, you can't just strap on the 996 01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,440 Speaker 1: proton pack with this like you need to. It's really 997 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,200 Speaker 1: like like it seems like you need two people on 998 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 1: hand for this, like whatever the belief system's version of 999 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,600 Speaker 1: an exorcist is or shaman or whatever, right, and then 1000 01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,840 Speaker 1: like a clinically trained psychiatrist, and those people need to 1001 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,880 Speaker 1: be working together collaboratively. Oh man, this is the next 1002 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,280 Speaker 1: big buddy supernatural TV show. A ghostbuster and an exorcist. 1003 01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Whoa buddy Cops? I think, get AMC on the phone. 1004 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,080 Speaker 1: We've got a pitch. This will go alongside our historical 1005 01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,479 Speaker 1: series about John d and Edward Kelly green light it. So, 1006 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,600 Speaker 1: in the tradition that we've been trying to keep up 1007 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,640 Speaker 1: in the last couple of weeks, we'd like to throw 1008 01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,840 Speaker 1: out a quick shout out to a nonprofit that's related 1009 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,920 Speaker 1: to the topic we're talking about. Maybe this is a 1010 01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,160 Speaker 1: topic that resonated with you, or maybe you know somebody 1011 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 1: that could use some help. So we wanted to let 1012 01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,080 Speaker 1: you know about this group called an Infinite Mind. It's 1013 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,800 Speaker 1: a five oh one c three nonprofit and they're dedicated 1014 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,480 Speaker 1: to improving the lives of survivors with trauma that's based 1015 01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:31,360 Speaker 1: on dissociation, with a primary focus on dissociative identity disorder. So, 1016 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,640 Speaker 1: if you heard some of the things we're talking about today, uh, 1017 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 1: and you said, hey, you know that that sounds like 1018 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,040 Speaker 1: somebody I know, Uh, maybe this is a group that 1019 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,160 Speaker 1: you could turn to and they could help them out. Cool. 1020 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,640 Speaker 1: All right, Well, in the time being, if you want 1021 01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,840 Speaker 1: to check out more episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 1022 01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:49,919 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1023 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,200 Speaker 1: That's where you'll find all of the episodes catalog for 1024 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 1: your your use. You'll also find blog posts, you'll find videos, 1025 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,800 Speaker 1: and you'll find links out to various social media account Yeah, 1026 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,320 Speaker 1: and on those social media accounts, we would love it 1027 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,200 Speaker 1: if you would tell us what you think about this 1028 01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,200 Speaker 1: whole proposal that we've put in front of you today. 1029 01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:14,080 Speaker 1: Possession mental health. Are they one and the same? Should 1030 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 1: we bring them together collaboratively for the healing process? Or 1031 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,560 Speaker 1: are they totally different things? And are we missing the 1032 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,960 Speaker 1: point entirely here? Let us know on those platforms, or 1033 01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,680 Speaker 1: you can just write us at blow the Mind at 1034 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:38,360 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and 1035 01:02:38,440 --> 01:03:00,000 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. 1036 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,360 Speaker 1: This is tab