WEBVTT - Ep. 377: Render - Bear Attack, Fred Bear, Ishi

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Clay Neukleman.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called

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<v Speaker 2>The Bear Grease Render where we render down, dive deeper,

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<v Speaker 2>and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>presented by f h F Gear, American Maid, purpose built

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<v Speaker 2>hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged

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<v Speaker 2>as the place as we explore.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very excited about today.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a very very distinguished guest and I'll say

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<v Speaker 2>that has been on the last two episodes of Bear Grease,

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<v Speaker 2>Geene Hopkins.

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<v Speaker 1>It's such a pleasure. Thank you for coming to Arkansas.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's my pleasure. I appreciate you guys inviting me.

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<v Speaker 3>This is exciting for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, So to fill you in if you haven't been

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<v Speaker 2>paying attention, we did an original episode on Ishi, which

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<v Speaker 2>that's what we're going to talk about extensively in this episode.

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<v Speaker 2>We're we're gonna cover some kind of housekeeping stuff up front,

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<v Speaker 2>but just to let you know where we're going with this,

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<v Speaker 2>we did an episode two what we've now done two episodes.

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<v Speaker 2>We did episode one on Ishi, which was basically his

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<v Speaker 2>history and life before coming into Oreville, California in nineteen eleven.

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<v Speaker 2>His history with what we know of the Yahee and

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<v Speaker 2>this fascinating story. Going to get into it. Then we

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<v Speaker 2>interrupted the series, which we've never done before forgive us.

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<v Speaker 2>We put out an episode where I interviewed Ted Copple,

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<v Speaker 2>which was just an interesting episode, and we dropped it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then now come back to do the final episode

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<v Speaker 2>with Gene that came out on the Bear Grease feed

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<v Speaker 2>Is She two basically, So we're going to talk about.

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<v Speaker 4>All that awesome episode.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way, yes, agreed, no doubt.

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<v Speaker 2>When I first started Bear Grease five years ago, Gene,

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<v Speaker 2>I was telling him this earlier. I had to write

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<v Speaker 2>out twenty six potential topics for this podcast because we

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<v Speaker 2>do a Bear Grease proper or documentary style episode every

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<v Speaker 2>two weeks, and media was like, okay, well, what are

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<v Speaker 2>you going to talk about? Make a year's schedule, and

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<v Speaker 2>Ishi was on that original list, but it's taken me

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<v Speaker 2>five years to get to.

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<v Speaker 3>It, so well, I hope the wait was worth it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh man, I think it's perfect timing and that yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to get into all of it. Before we do,

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<v Speaker 2>there's three things I want to talk about. The Mediater

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<v Speaker 2>Live tour that's coming up, the Christmas Tickets Live Tour.

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<v Speaker 1>You got your I got a whole table, man, did you?

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<v Speaker 1>I did excellent?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I haven't decided who the other pair of

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<v Speaker 4>people want to invite.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, well you might. I could bring them. You could

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<v Speaker 2>bring in a bear Grease listener. The Faydeville show is sold.

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<v Speaker 4>Out exactly except for the two tickets I've got.

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<v Speaker 1>There's six six shows.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a show in Birmingham, Nashville, Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, Fadeville, Arkansas, Dallas, Texas,

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<v Speaker 2>and Austin, Texas. Sixth cities, six nights in December, the

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<v Speaker 2>seventeenth through the twenty second. I believe, And uh, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>so proud of Faydeville. Arkansas is the smallest city on

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<v Speaker 2>the tour, right, I mean all those other all those

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<v Speaker 2>other cities are huge, big metropolises. And meat Eater came

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<v Speaker 2>to us three and said, do you think it would

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<v Speaker 2>work in Faydeville?

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<v Speaker 1>And what did that? What do we say?

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<v Speaker 2>We said, buddy, speaking to meat Eater as if it

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<v Speaker 2>were a man, Buddy, you better believe that better people

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<v Speaker 2>in Arkansas are going to show up for Meet Eater

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<v Speaker 2>Live sold.

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<v Speaker 4>Better Razorback Stadium because we're gonna fill it up. Sold

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<v Speaker 4>out in three days, sold out three days.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was.

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<v Speaker 2>Before the they even actually went on regular sale.

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<v Speaker 4>It was like pre like the pre release.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so all the other shows, the other shows

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<v Speaker 2>are filling up quick. But meeting her live to I

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<v Speaker 2>had a lot of people ask me what the live

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<v Speaker 2>tour is. It's like, a it's like a two hour

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<v Speaker 2>variety show.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a great description.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's it'll be Steve Ranella, Brent Reeves, Giannis

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<v Speaker 2>would tell us Randall Williams and myself. Every every city

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<v Speaker 2>will have a couple of local guests who will be there,

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<v Speaker 2>like surprise guests that we're not going to tell you

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<v Speaker 2>who they are, but people that when you see them

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<v Speaker 2>you'll be like, whoa, They're gonna be there, and like

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<v Speaker 2>there's gonna be music, trivia, storytelling, crowd participation, U A

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<v Speaker 2>lot going on. And so it's it's really fun. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean even if you had non hunting family, I would

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<v Speaker 2>be very shocked if you would bring them to this

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<v Speaker 2>and they wouldn't be entertained.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, I would agree.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean just a lot of fun. So so excited,

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<v Speaker 1>but so you better get your tickets for the rest

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<v Speaker 1>of the shows. If you're going to go because they're

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<v Speaker 1>probably going to sell out, and if.

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<v Speaker 3>You're trying to get into the fatal show.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, you could Josh let you at his table.

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<v Speaker 5>You should.

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<v Speaker 2>What if we left one spot for that table and

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<v Speaker 2>we could have people right in why they wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>be there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a bad idea, you know what. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to say this too.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't take it for granted that we can have

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<v Speaker 2>a live show and sell out like it's really it

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<v Speaker 2>means a lot to us that people are willing and

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<v Speaker 2>want to come and come and see us. So I

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<v Speaker 2>don't I don't take it for granted.

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<v Speaker 1>That that that people are you know, are willing to

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<v Speaker 1>do that.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks everything, and thanks for showing up in Arkansas.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's number one. Number two.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, if you need a good deer call, this is

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<v Speaker 2>a blatant sales pitch.

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<v Speaker 1>Getting ready, just so happy, ready to be de Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>This phelps acorn Grunner made burnt osage Orne.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm a little jealous of that one.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So this is uh, we call.

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<v Speaker 2>It the acorn Grunner and it's an inhale exhale grunt bleep.

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<v Speaker 2>You can flip it and it's the opposite. Then it's

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<v Speaker 2>a blow for the bleat in heale for the grunt.

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<v Speaker 2>But I wanted Jason Phelps to make a call that

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<v Speaker 2>a single call with a bleat and a because man,

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<v Speaker 2>I use a bleat as much as I use a grunt.

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<v Speaker 2>And uh and and I've called in a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>deer with a dough bleat, including this.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the deer hunter's call. That's what I call

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<v Speaker 1>it the deer hunters call, because I kill.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of dough deer by calling them in with

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<v Speaker 2>a dough bleat. I mean, you know, dough out there

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<v Speaker 2>at forty yards, She's not coming to your buck grunt.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's a deer that you want to take right. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>during the early season, especially a dough deer will respond

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<v Speaker 2>to a dough bleat pretty pretty good. What do you think, bear?

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<v Speaker 2>I agree all hype, all commercialization and hype, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't think so. Pretty good call? I think so. And

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<v Speaker 1>I was just looking at this one.

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<v Speaker 6>These bodark trees have some pretty nice growth rings on

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<v Speaker 6>them too, so.

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<v Speaker 1>It's pretty good boat ark. Pretty good boat ark.

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<v Speaker 3>I could have made a good bow.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh yeah, yeah, Well they cut them up in the call.

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<v Speaker 7>Right there, he's got some thin rings, but up here

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<v Speaker 7>those are prime ring. Now, thin rings would be better, though, right,

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<v Speaker 7>tighter growth, hard years.

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<v Speaker 6>They're just a lot tougher to work with, really, And

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<v Speaker 6>if you, if you like, hit.

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<v Speaker 7>Them on a tree, standard rock or something, they violate

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<v Speaker 7>a lot easier violate.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's a big word sounding about bowl wood.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, man, because then it blows up the whole bow

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<v Speaker 1>if the rings are tight. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, like, what you're telling me, is there a metaphor?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we find in life a lot of times

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<v Speaker 2>trees are used as metaphors for life.

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<v Speaker 1>Jesus did it.

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<v Speaker 2>He said the Kingdom of God is like a like

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<v Speaker 2>a mustard seed that grows on the biggest tree and

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<v Speaker 2>the birds. So you're telling me I would have thought

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<v Speaker 2>that the tight rings meant hard years, which meant growth

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<v Speaker 2>of character in tight rings.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you were follow the bow. You're over here. He

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<v Speaker 3>knows what he's talking about.

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<v Speaker 7>I've made some bows with tight rings and they're great bows.

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<v Speaker 7>But if it's got a thick ring, it's just more security.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, easier to stay within the ring while you're making

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<v Speaker 3>the bow.

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<v Speaker 1>Eh, yep, exactly. That's probably part of it. Yeah, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Third thing and then we're gonna start talking about is

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<v Speaker 2>she and Gene, who's like the most interesting man in

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<v Speaker 2>the world.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't always talk about my grandkids.

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<v Speaker 2>Your grandkids, well, well we do too, So this is

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<v Speaker 2>like super serious. In Arkansas this week there was another

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<v Speaker 2>black bear fatality. If you're paying attention on the Nash,

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<v Speaker 2>it's been in New York Times.

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<v Speaker 1>BBC did the BBC report on them.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been in all the major headlines and all the

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<v Speaker 2>news outlets have covered it.

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<v Speaker 1>Media covered it.

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<v Speaker 2>But there was a second bear fatality in less than

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<v Speaker 2>thirty days in Arkansas. In recorded history, recorded history, what

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<v Speaker 2>I would call modern history, there's not been a black

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<v Speaker 2>bear fatality in Arkansas since eighteen There was some after that,

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<v Speaker 2>but usually they were induced inside of a hunting situation

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<v Speaker 2>with dog. I mean like Erskine was killed bears, the

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<v Speaker 2>dog dogs were baying a bear. Guy killed, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen forty three, you know a man September third, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a man just south of us, about an hour

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<v Speaker 2>near the Mulberry River, on a tractor grading his gravel

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<v Speaker 2>road on a on a I think was a new

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<v Speaker 2>hauland tractor and no connection between a little a little bear,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean eighty pound bear comes up. He films the

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<v Speaker 2>bear and he's like talking to the bear, and.

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<v Speaker 1>Next you know, this bear is kind of like.

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<v Speaker 2>Cat walking, like getting real close, and basically he stops

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<v Speaker 2>filming and the next thing, the bear jumps on the tractor,

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<v Speaker 2>pulls him off the tractor and basically gives injuries to

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<v Speaker 2>the guy that caused him to pass away several weeks

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<v Speaker 2>later after being I see you. So that was just wild,

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<v Speaker 2>and it felt like this lightning struck and it was this.

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<v Speaker 3>One off thing that's unusual.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so unusual.

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<v Speaker 2>And then last Thursday, a man was discovered at a

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<v Speaker 2>campsite in the ozark to a place called a very

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<v Speaker 2>popular place called Sam's Throne, which is in National Forest,

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<v Speaker 2>a place where rock climbers climb some big sheer face

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<v Speaker 2>bluffs and just a big National Forest campground. And a

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<v Speaker 2>man had from Missouri, sixty year old man. They released

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<v Speaker 2>his name.

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<v Speaker 1>Today, oh yeah, yesterday.

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<v Speaker 2>His name is Max Thomas, and that he had sent

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<v Speaker 2>a picture to his wife on Tuesday of a Baroness

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<v Speaker 2>camp and it had just been like, wow, this is interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>A bear in the camp, not threatened, just had this bear.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically he goes radio silent and on Thursday they called

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<v Speaker 2>the sheriff and say, hey, we do a welfare check.

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<v Speaker 2>My husband hasn't can't get him, haven't talked to him

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<v Speaker 2>since Tuesday. They go and basically there's signs of distress

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<v Speaker 2>in the camp and they follow. They basically find the

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<v Speaker 2>man one hundred and ninety four feet away appeared to

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<v Speaker 2>have been mauled by a black bear. And and they

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<v Speaker 2>put that two together by the pictures and then by

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<v Speaker 2>evidence there and in a unique circumstances I can't really

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<v Speaker 2>talk about fully. Baron Nuklem and I were that night

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<v Speaker 2>called to go to the scene.

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<v Speaker 4>This is like an hour from us, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And so Bear and I went there that night and

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<v Speaker 2>and we helped round up guys that had some dogs

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<v Speaker 2>that would treat a bear, you know, and and they

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<v Speaker 2>free cast dogs. But this track was potential a couple

0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.360
<v Speaker 2>of days old. By now didn't get the bear game

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.559
<v Speaker 2>and fish comes in game and fish authorize the use

0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 2>of dogs. It's not legal run bear with dogs. It's

0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 2>a game and Fish director along with the bear coordinator

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:19.200
<v Speaker 2>and other people authorize the use. And Glenn Wheeler, the

0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Sheriff of Newton County.

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:24.440
<v Speaker 1>He was on the scene.

0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Unique guy, a hunter, kind of had some a little

0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.679
<v Speaker 2>bit of background and besides his law enforcement but being

0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.720
<v Speaker 2>around bears and whatnot. Anyway, the game and Fish puts

0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:41.120
<v Speaker 2>up traps and bucket snare traps and big tube traps,

0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.319
<v Speaker 2>puts up cell cameras all over the place. They shut

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:51.040
<v Speaker 2>down the campground and basically the best bet is to

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 2>wait for the bear to come back. But we all

0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.640
<v Speaker 2>suspected that the bear would not go in the trap

0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 2>because we've been baiting bears in Arkansas here Gene, and

0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.320
<v Speaker 2>it got to where you couldn't hardly take a bear

0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.400
<v Speaker 2>over bait just because they were eating acorns, I mean

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:12.680
<v Speaker 2>mass crop, just a bumper crop.

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 3>They love those acorns and the protein.

0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes they do, and so and so basically we were

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the houndsmen were on call, the guys that had these dogs,

0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 2>and on Sunday gave and fish got a picture and

0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 2>the bear just walked right past all the traps.

0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 1>Just didn't even go in them.

0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:41.480
<v Speaker 2>And the houndsmen were called and within two hours dogs

0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 2>were on the ground, and within an hour of the

0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.440
<v Speaker 2>dogs being on the ground, essentially they tread this bear.

0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>And so the question that remains, and this has been

0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying anything that has not been put out

0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:02.920
<v Speaker 2>by the media. We don't know one hundred percent that

0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the bear that was killed by game fish in these houndsmen.

0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.200
<v Speaker 2>We don't know if that was the bear, but it

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.120
<v Speaker 2>was a We know for sure that it was a

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.040
<v Speaker 2>juvenile male that was in the camp with this guy,

0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 2>and we know that this was the only and the

0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 2>first bear that showed back up at the spot, and.

0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 1>It was a juvenile male.

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.560
<v Speaker 2>There's it's hard, you know, the markings on the bear,

0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.320
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to say. I mean, the bear had a

0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.560
<v Speaker 2>tan muzzle. The bear that was killed had a tan muzzle,

0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 2>so it's it's difficult, but there were no other distinguishing characteristics.

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:47.600
<v Speaker 3>That Well, the test will come back, that's right.

0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 2>So they've they've the DNA test will come back. We'll

0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 2>know for certain if it was the bear or not.

0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.479
<v Speaker 2>But you know, a lot of people I would imagine

0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>this year in the state, there's going to be a

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of bear encounters that have always happened, and people

0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.040
<v Speaker 2>are probably gonna overreact a little bit to them. And

0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's already happened even this week, there's been

0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:17.840
<v Speaker 2>reports of a bear that was kind of terrorizing people

0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.720
<v Speaker 2>at a camp, which to my knowledge with the information

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.920
<v Speaker 2>I have right now, which this is being recorded before this,

0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 2>you're hearing this, but right now, this morning, there was

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 2>a news report of a bear terrorizing some campers and.

0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 4>In the area.

0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yesterday for real, Yes, in Franklin County.

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:45.080
<v Speaker 2>These hikers on the Ozark Islands Trail reported a bear

0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.920
<v Speaker 2>giving them a lot of trouble. The real story and

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:55.120
<v Speaker 2>what is in the SoundBite is, to my understanding right

0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.120
<v Speaker 2>now today is quite a bit different, and it probably

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.080
<v Speaker 2>was fairly normal bear behavior and no one was hurt,

0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.560
<v Speaker 2>No one was attacked, no doubt. It was a little

0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.639
<v Speaker 2>bit scary for someone, sure, but to my knowledge, it

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 2>would not have been that abnormal. I mean, like basically

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:11.879
<v Speaker 2>a bear came into the camp.

0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:13.919
<v Speaker 3>People are hyper sensitized right now.

0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.240
<v Speaker 2>They are they are, and so I think a lot

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.680
<v Speaker 2>of that's going to happen this year, maybe all over

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:20.840
<v Speaker 2>bear country.

0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 1>And you know, here's the bottom line is, if you

0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:27.120
<v Speaker 1>have a bear.

0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Casually dealing with you, that is hanging around, you need

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.760
<v Speaker 2>to get the heck out of there, and you need

0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to do everything you can.

0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.520
<v Speaker 1>To get that bear out of there, yep.

0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Like it's not abnormal to see a bear cruise past

0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.760
<v Speaker 2>your camp. I mean sometimes they're pretty nonchalant, especially when

0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 2>there's food involved. And that doesn't mean that that bear

0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:54.240
<v Speaker 2>is a super threat. But man, with the current circumscans,

0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.360
<v Speaker 2>if I saw a bear that was casual with its

0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>encounters with humans, I mean, you need to run that

0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.679
<v Speaker 2>bear off. You don't need to casually handle.

0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 4>Don't be standing there taking pictures of them.

0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.959
<v Speaker 2>I mean that and and that's that's the truth anywhere. Yeah,

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.680
<v Speaker 2>that's the truth anywhere in bear countries. You just can't

0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:18.679
<v Speaker 2>be lasadaisical. You know, ninety nine thousand out of one

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand times that bear is not going to do

0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.520
<v Speaker 2>anything with you. But for whatever reasons, has happened twice

0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:27.000
<v Speaker 2>in the last month here.

0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 4>So anyway, well, our condolences to the family. No doubt

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.640
<v Speaker 4>they're terrible, tragic into these these guys.

0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no doubt common sense in the bear woods.

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:45.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah yeah, yeah, man, I don't know. I'd probably be

0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.280
<v Speaker 4>carrying some pepper spray these days too, Yeah, wouldn't hurt.

0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.080
<v Speaker 1>You know. It's kind of changed the way bear and

0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 1>I think about black bears.

0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, we've kind of built a ideology of

0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.200
<v Speaker 2>just casual, you know, just like, hey, these bears aren't

0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.439
<v Speaker 2>going to hurt you. You got a better chance of

0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:09.040
<v Speaker 2>getting you know, hurt on the highway or in engagement

0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.560
<v Speaker 2>with the humans. Probably more dangerous than any baron counter

0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.320
<v Speaker 2>you'll ever have. But there's something about being arms reached

0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.199
<v Speaker 2>from an attack like this that makes you kind of

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:18.120
<v Speaker 2>just go goly.

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:20.800
<v Speaker 1>You'd hope you're just prepared.

0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.680
<v Speaker 2>But I just want to say it over and over again, man, bears,

0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.840
<v Speaker 2>bears are expanding their range all across the country. Bear

0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and humans are overlapping more and more and more, and uh,

0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.200
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing to be afraid of. That's something to be celebrated,

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.520
<v Speaker 2>in my opinion, in the vast majority of American's opinion.

0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.080
<v Speaker 2>But you just can't be casual with them. You can't

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.879
<v Speaker 2>be casual, can't can't let them just come in your

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:49.000
<v Speaker 2>camp and.

0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.440
<v Speaker 3>Don't feed them again common sense?

0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:53.840
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that's right, that's right.

0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Bear.

0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.760
<v Speaker 7>You anything to add m Yeah, I mean, like you said,

0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.119
<v Speaker 7>it was definitely pretty wild be that close to a

0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.040
<v Speaker 7>bear attack like the first one happened, And I mean

0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.160
<v Speaker 7>it was pretty wild, but it didn't really, It didn't

0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.879
<v Speaker 7>really change any way that I would have gone about

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.359
<v Speaker 7>in bear country. But seeing the second one and actually

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:20.360
<v Speaker 7>being there was like definitely extremely eye opening.

0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.520
<v Speaker 1>To what they could what they could do.

0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.080
<v Speaker 7>It definitely like we were in the bearwoods yesterday bear hunting,

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.359
<v Speaker 7>and I was definitely a lot more like I was

0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:36.040
<v Speaker 7>considering what, considering what could happen a lot more and

0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.520
<v Speaker 7>just being a lot more cautious about, like, you know,

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:44.000
<v Speaker 7>getting really close to bears and especially small bears.

0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. That's probably the biggest takeaway, isn't it.

0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.280
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, Yeah, because both bears were juvenile males.

0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:59.280
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.000
<v Speaker 2>On average, over the last hundred years, there's been one

0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.960
<v Speaker 2>black bear fatality in North America per year on average.

0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Some years there's been in North America like North.

0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:14.280
<v Speaker 2>America, Wow, average one per year, But that means some

0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.800
<v Speaker 2>years there's none, right, some years there's three, maybe four,

0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:24.600
<v Speaker 2>But on average one. If you're killed by a black bear,

0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:29.399
<v Speaker 2>there is upwards of a ninety degree chance that it

0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.800
<v Speaker 2>was a juvenile male that killed you. This is where

0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 2>the statistics get interesting. There's a but if you're just attacked,

0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.479
<v Speaker 2>like if you just come away with some bytes and

0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 2>some scratches, there, it's like thirteen times higher a risk

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.880
<v Speaker 2>that that would be a sal with cubs. I've talked

0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.280
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of people who said, oh, probably South cubs,

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:52.080
<v Speaker 2>and I went No.

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:54.080
<v Speaker 1>A sow with cubs.

0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Her objective inside of an attack would be to defend

0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.760
<v Speaker 2>her cubs just enough so they could get way, Like

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:01.639
<v Speaker 2>she doesn't want.

0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:01.960
<v Speaker 5>To eat you.

0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 2>There's a big, huge distinction between a South with cubs

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:11.280
<v Speaker 2>defending her territory in a close range encounter and the

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>very rare, rare, rare, rare thing that is called the

0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.600
<v Speaker 2>predatory attack. When a bear sets his sights on you

0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 2>and his intent is to kill you. That's it's a thing.

0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.040
<v Speaker 2>So does that make sense? So if if you're dead,

0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:29.399
<v Speaker 2>that it was probably a juvenile male that did it.

0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.120
<v Speaker 2>If you were attacked and not killed, it was most

0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:35.520
<v Speaker 2>likely a South cubs upwards.

0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:35.480
<v Speaker 5>Of like.

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Thirteen times higher chance. So there's.

0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Over ten to like ten to fifteen people per year

0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.439
<v Speaker 2>that get attacked by black bears but survive. The vast

0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:52.679
<v Speaker 2>majority of those are sALS with cubs.

0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:53.520
<v Speaker 1>Does that make sense?

0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:58.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so the stats are different. Now grizzlies is a

0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.880
<v Speaker 2>whole different story, like completely different story that.

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:05.000
<v Speaker 1>We're not even talking about here.

0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.120
<v Speaker 2>But you know, on average, two people per year get

0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.920
<v Speaker 2>killed by grizzlies in North America. And when you consider

0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:16.560
<v Speaker 2>how many fewer grizzlies there are in the smaller range, you.

0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Really you extrapolate that out.

0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Black bears are, you know, all over the place, from

0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Maine to Old Mexico, from Florida to Alaska, everywhere in

0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.280
<v Speaker 2>between except the Great Plain States essentially, and we have

0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.840
<v Speaker 2>one bear killed per year. Grizzlies are essentially in the

0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Greater Yelstone ecosystem, and then in Canada up to Alaska.

0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the range just dramatically smaller, and there's two

0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:43.520
<v Speaker 2>kills per year and the attacks are are much more.

0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>There was a guy attacked an elk hunter attacked pretty

0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.920
<v Speaker 2>critically this week. So grizz is a different story. We're

0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:54.119
<v Speaker 2>talking about black bears. But and that's why, and this

0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:57.280
<v Speaker 2>is kind of in the weeds, but that's why.

0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:59.359
<v Speaker 1>It helps to understand what you're doing.

0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:02.200
<v Speaker 2>If if you are attacked by a sow with cubs,

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 2>your best bet is to cover your head and neck,

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.040
<v Speaker 2>getting the ball and act like you're dead because all

0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:12.919
<v Speaker 2>she wants to do is extinguish the threat. Threats O

0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.440
<v Speaker 2>ye she will leave you alone and go to her cubs,

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:20.280
<v Speaker 2>chuckle her cubs out of the tree, and get out

0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:25.919
<v Speaker 2>of there. If it is a predatory animal, predatory meaning stalking,

0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:34.040
<v Speaker 2>direct eye contact, persistence in like, won't leave. If that

0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 2>bear attacks you, you better fight for your life because

0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:41.879
<v Speaker 2>he is trying to kill you, right. The majority of

0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:51.680
<v Speaker 2>bear attacks have wounds on the forearms where people put

0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:54.720
<v Speaker 2>up their arm to protect themselves and they get bit

0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:59.040
<v Speaker 2>on the arm and they have lacerations and bites all

0:24:59.080 --> 0:24:59.720
<v Speaker 2>over the face.

0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:03.520
<v Speaker 1>A black bear goes.

0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 2>For your face, it's interesting, like they so they don't

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:14.280
<v Speaker 2>they don't really kill with the precision of like a

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.440
<v Speaker 2>big cat. A big cat would go for the throat,

0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.399
<v Speaker 2>and I mean big cat fatalities and humans is just

0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:24.680
<v Speaker 2>like incredibly rare. It does happen, but a black bear

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:27.840
<v Speaker 2>is more of just like a like a mauling.

0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:30.320
<v Speaker 1>But they do target on the head.

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:33.360
<v Speaker 2>And you think about it when a black I don't

0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:36.359
<v Speaker 2>know if you've ever seen black bears fight, but when

0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:41.000
<v Speaker 2>two male black bears fight, they target the head of

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>the other male like they grab each other's ears and

0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.760
<v Speaker 2>they put their arms up almost like their boxing and fight.

0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:49.480
<v Speaker 1>And so I mean a.

0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Lot of interesting parallels, but as dark as all that

0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:58.360
<v Speaker 2>is black bears in humans, this conflict isn't going away.

0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:03.399
<v Speaker 2>And the more we kind of educate people, but a

0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:06.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of people have asked me, like, well, do you

0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.120
<v Speaker 2>run or do you yell? Man, if a bear came

0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:12.359
<v Speaker 2>into my camp just casually strolled by my camp and

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:16.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm sitting there camping with my food and everything, I

0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 2>would yell and scream and throw stuff and stomp around.

0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:24.520
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, if you can.

0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Leave, yeah, at at best, put your food up way

0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:34.040
<v Speaker 2>away from your camp. I mean, that's standard procedure is

0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:36.480
<v Speaker 2>to put your food store, your food away from your camp,

0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:38.720
<v Speaker 2>because they really don't want you, They want your food.

0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:44.600
<v Speaker 2>They're attracted to the camp, to the food. So that's

0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:48.360
<v Speaker 2>my that's my take on the take on the situation.

0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:51.240
<v Speaker 2>And just yeah, true condolence is to the family there

0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:54.280
<v Speaker 2>in Missouri. Just just super sad situation.

0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:55.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:59.040
<v Speaker 7>And one one more thing that I learned just from

0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:03.200
<v Speaker 7>the two is that if a if you're not armed

0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:07.040
<v Speaker 7>and a black bear wants to kill you, it's it's

0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:09.480
<v Speaker 7>probably gonna kill you. Like that's the thing that I learned,

0:27:10.000 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 7>was like, you, like, there's no reason to necessarily be

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:18.440
<v Speaker 7>afraid of them. But like if it's wanting to kill you,

0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:20.200
<v Speaker 7>it's like you're not gonna fight it off.

0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:22.120
<v Speaker 1>Like these were like eighty pound bears.

0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:25.040
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, and they just I mean, there's like no way

0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:27.520
<v Speaker 7>you're gonna fight one off unless you're arm.

0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:29.760
<v Speaker 2>That is a good point because I talked to a

0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:33.240
<v Speaker 2>buddy of mine this week. He's a big guy, like

0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:38.199
<v Speaker 2>probably two hundred and thirty pounds, and we had this

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 2>conversation about like, ah, if one hundred pounds bear got

0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:44.440
<v Speaker 2>on you, you could just fend it off like you

0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:49.199
<v Speaker 2>would a dog. One hundred pounds of bear muscle is

0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:51.840
<v Speaker 2>way stronger than one hundred pounds of human.

0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:54.800
<v Speaker 3>Muscle, and their reflex is so fast. The claws and

0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:56.359
<v Speaker 3>the teeth, we're no match.

0:27:57.040 --> 0:27:59.280
<v Speaker 4>I think that's the thing. Like if a bear hits

0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:03.000
<v Speaker 4>you in the face claws, I mean that's you're done.

0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:06.399
<v Speaker 4>Like even if you like he takes your vision or

0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:08.919
<v Speaker 4>something like that, it's like you have no defense against that.

0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:09.680
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 2>And if you've ever seen bears fight, which you probably

0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>have sitting on bear baits in Canada like I have, Mayan.

0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:20.040
<v Speaker 1>God, They're wicked. You wouldn't want to be there. You

0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:23.359
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't want to be on the other end of them,

0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:25.040
<v Speaker 1>just really wanting to tear into.

0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:26.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and back to what you said about them going

0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 3>for the face. A lot of times you'll see an

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:34.360
<v Speaker 3>old bear, but his face is all scarred up from

0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:36.880
<v Speaker 3>the fights. You know. They when they're fighting each other,

0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 3>they're going for the head. They're trying to repeat your

0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 3>head off. They bite the claw and the muzzles are

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:45.280
<v Speaker 3>all scarred. Yeah. You know, you can see an old

0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:48.360
<v Speaker 3>boar bear he's been in some battles and those scars

0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:49.440
<v Speaker 3>all show on his muzzle.

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and ears, yeah right, you know where they're biting

0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 2>at each other.

0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:57.800
<v Speaker 4>It just makes me reevaluate that whole video where you

0:28:57.800 --> 0:28:59.480
<v Speaker 4>and Brent were in the stand and that bear comes

0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:01.800
<v Speaker 4>in the the blind like that could have turned south

0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:02.960
<v Speaker 4>in a hurry.

0:29:03.120 --> 0:29:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's true. Well that was

0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:12.480
<v Speaker 1>a that was a.

0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:18.520
<v Speaker 2>Kind of a dark introduction to a wonderful topic. The

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 2>story of Ischi, to me is one of the great

0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:23.400
<v Speaker 2>stories of this continent.

0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 3>I agree, no matter which angle you come from, if

0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:29.480
<v Speaker 3>you come at it like we from the angle of

0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:32.440
<v Speaker 3>bow hunting, you know, in our archery and buehunting history,

0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 3>or if you just come at it from an angle

0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.560
<v Speaker 3>of you know, anthropology and the history of Native Americans

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 3>in our country, in our country, the evolution of me,

0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.760
<v Speaker 3>and you know, the treatment of how we treat each other.

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.800
<v Speaker 3>No matter what angle you come at this story from,

0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:49.160
<v Speaker 3>it's just fascinating.

0:29:49.440 --> 0:29:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, But Gene, give us, give us a little introduction.

0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:57.040
<v Speaker 2>People would have heard me talk about you some on

0:29:57.120 --> 0:30:01.560
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, but you have a long history in bow hunting.

0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:05.520
<v Speaker 2>But I can say this, and you could too if

0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:09.560
<v Speaker 2>you weren't so humble. You have one of, if not

0:30:10.000 --> 0:30:14.080
<v Speaker 2>the premiere collection of bow hunting artific facts in the country.

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I do, you know, take away the humble part

0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:20.560
<v Speaker 3>of it. But I'm fascinated with history, you know, And

0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:22.960
<v Speaker 3>I've always been a history buff in school. You know,

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 3>history was my favorite topic. But then I love hunting

0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 3>with the bone and arrow. So to be able to

0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 3>put the history of hunting with the bow and arrow together,

0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:33.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, how much better can it be? So I've

0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 3>always been a collector, you know, a saver. When I

0:30:36.200 --> 0:30:39.760
<v Speaker 3>was young, I got collected coins, and I collected stamps,

0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:42.880
<v Speaker 3>and you know, I collected vintage firearms. But I started

0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.480
<v Speaker 3>saving old archery equipment just because you know, as bow

0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:47.960
<v Speaker 3>hunters we do that. We throw our old broadheads in

0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:50.000
<v Speaker 3>a drawer, and pretty soon you've got a drawer full

0:30:50.000 --> 0:30:53.600
<v Speaker 3>of nineteen different broadheads, and then you move from saving

0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.520
<v Speaker 3>to collecting. But I really don't think of it as

0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:59.000
<v Speaker 3>collecting anymore. I think of it as caretaking. You know.

0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:03.120
<v Speaker 3>What I'm doing is preserving. What I hope I'm doing

0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:05.720
<v Speaker 3>is preserving the items, but not just the items, but

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:07.480
<v Speaker 3>the story of the items and the story of the

0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:11.280
<v Speaker 3>people who use those items. I'm caretaking that for my generation,

0:31:11.960 --> 0:31:13.560
<v Speaker 3>and there will be a time when I'm looking for

0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:17.000
<v Speaker 3>somebody like Bear, you know, who's the next caretaker. And

0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:20.240
<v Speaker 3>that's me, our duty. That's what we owe those people

0:31:20.280 --> 0:31:22.520
<v Speaker 3>who came before us, you know, the pioneers of Fred

0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:25.480
<v Speaker 3>Bears and the Glenn Saint Charles. We owe that to them,

0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:28.240
<v Speaker 3>to keep their story alive, all the work they did

0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:31.240
<v Speaker 3>for us and all the sacrifices they made for us,

0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:34.320
<v Speaker 3>to keep that story alive and keep their spirit alive.

0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:36.280
<v Speaker 3>By keeping their story alive.

0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 1>Will you tell me what is in your museum, Give

0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:39.760
<v Speaker 1>me a rundown.

0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:45.120
<v Speaker 3>A lot of people will collect something or save something

0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:50.360
<v Speaker 3>that is most interesting to them. I have a really

0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:54.360
<v Speaker 3>good friend in Michigan, John Cabisa, and John focuses on

0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:58.640
<v Speaker 3>the history of bow hunting and Michigan. Other people will

0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:01.680
<v Speaker 3>collect just simply Fred Beher items or Ben Pearson items

0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:03.560
<v Speaker 3>and things, you know, from the history of those people

0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 3>or those companies. For me, it's the history of the

0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:10.800
<v Speaker 3>pioneers of our sport. So and I quantify that. What

0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:14.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm saying is, you know, pre nineteen fifty, in nineteen fifty,

0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:18.840
<v Speaker 3>our sport was off the ground pretty good through the

0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:22.040
<v Speaker 3>efforts of Fred Beer and Glenn Saint Charles and Howard

0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:24.240
<v Speaker 3>Hill and Roy Case and a lot of different people.

0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:27.280
<v Speaker 3>But prior to nineteen fifty, there, you know, our sport

0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:31.080
<v Speaker 3>was going through some really difficult times. You know, we

0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:34.200
<v Speaker 3>had been as the bow and arrow had been largely forgotten.

0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 3>Even the Native Americans had forgotten about the bow and arrow.

0:32:38.160 --> 0:32:40.880
<v Speaker 3>When the gun came along. If you wanted to go hunting,

0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:43.600
<v Speaker 3>you want hunting to survive, you want hunting to feed

0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:45.880
<v Speaker 3>your family, so you wouldn't take a bow and arrow.

0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.160
<v Speaker 3>You'd take a rifle or a shotgun. Well, in the

0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:51.840
<v Speaker 3>late eighteen hundreds, a couple of brothers, the Thompson brothers

0:32:52.760 --> 0:32:56.360
<v Speaker 3>from Crawfordsville, Indiana, wrote a book called The Witchery of Archery,

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:58.880
<v Speaker 3>and it was right after the Civil War, and right

0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:01.440
<v Speaker 3>after the Civil War, for the time in our country's history,

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:03.600
<v Speaker 3>people are starting to have a little bit of free time,

0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:05.320
<v Speaker 3>and they're starting to have a little bit of free

0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.720
<v Speaker 3>spending money. So you see a lot of sports growing

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:11.800
<v Speaker 3>at that time. You see badminton, you see tennis, you

0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:15.600
<v Speaker 3>see bicycling, and things like that start to appear as sports.

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:17.640
<v Speaker 3>And we're starting to look for things to do with

0:33:17.720 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 3>that spare time and that spare money. So when they

0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:22.840
<v Speaker 3>wrote that book, The Witchery of Archery was published in

0:33:22.840 --> 0:33:26.680
<v Speaker 3>eighteen seventy eight, people around the country are reading this

0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.200
<v Speaker 3>book and they're reading the magazine articles that these guys

0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:31.200
<v Speaker 3>are writing, and they're saying that sounds like fun. You know,

0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:35.520
<v Speaker 3>bow and arrow, I'd forgotten about that. Let's pick up,

0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:37.200
<v Speaker 3>let's go find us at bow and arrow. Let's go

0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:39.680
<v Speaker 3>out and shoot. And at that time, not a lot

0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:42.240
<v Speaker 3>of people were hunting with bone arrow. The Thompson brothers

0:33:42.280 --> 0:33:45.480
<v Speaker 3>were a few others were, but target archery started to

0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.520
<v Speaker 3>become a big deal, and the National Archery Association was

0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:51.400
<v Speaker 3>formed in eighteen seventy nine through the efforts of the

0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.240
<v Speaker 3>Thompson brothers and the exposure they gave to our sport.

0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:56.840
<v Speaker 3>So now we start to see a lot of clubs

0:33:57.080 --> 0:33:59.560
<v Speaker 3>springing up around the country of shooting targets with the

0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:03.200
<v Speaker 3>bawe and air. Well, that kind of tailed off a

0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:06.360
<v Speaker 3>little bit, you know, around nineteen hundred or so, and

0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:09.920
<v Speaker 3>then the story of Issue comes along nineteen eleven. Issue

0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:12.640
<v Speaker 3>comes down meets Pope. You've heard all this, you know,

0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:15.479
<v Speaker 3>in the two podcasts we did before. And then Pope

0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:17.160
<v Speaker 3>writes this book, Hunting with the Ball and Arrow, and

0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:20.920
<v Speaker 3>he publishes this in nineteen twenty three. Now, this book

0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:24.279
<v Speaker 3>really ignites the revolution of fire of people that want

0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:25.680
<v Speaker 3>to go out and hunt with a ball and arrow.

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:29.160
<v Speaker 3>I told briefly the story of Doug Easton in the

0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:32.320
<v Speaker 3>earlier podcast. You know, Doug was out as a teenager

0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:35.960
<v Speaker 3>hunting small game rabbits with a shotgun and they come

0:34:36.000 --> 0:34:37.640
<v Speaker 3>back to the car for a break and one of

0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 3>the shotguns falls over, discharges and part of the shot

0:34:41.280 --> 0:34:43.839
<v Speaker 3>hit Doug in the legs. A Doug spends a year

0:34:43.840 --> 0:34:47.160
<v Speaker 3>in the hospital recovering from the wounds, and during that

0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:49.640
<v Speaker 3>time somebody brings him one of Pope's books about hunting

0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.399
<v Speaker 3>with the ball and arrow, and he read the book,

0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:54.719
<v Speaker 3>and all that time and all the different operations he

0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:56.560
<v Speaker 3>had in the hospital, he reads this book and it

0:34:56.600 --> 0:34:59.640
<v Speaker 3>fires him up about archery. So you know, that's what

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:04.600
<v Speaker 3>got Dug Easton into archery. And he started shortly after that,

0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 3>in the nineteen twenties, he started each Eastern Archery company.

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:11.439
<v Speaker 3>So story after story after story of people that are

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:16.120
<v Speaker 3>coming from that. Let's say that point of issue being

0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:19.759
<v Speaker 3>the spark that ignited the fire, and then Pope and

0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:23.040
<v Speaker 3>Young and Compton starting that fire and carrying that fire

0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:25.800
<v Speaker 3>to the next generation. And that's why we're here today.

0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 3>If that hadn't happened, if Issui hadn't been the spark,

0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:32.680
<v Speaker 3>if Pope hadn't looked down his window that day and

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:35.960
<v Speaker 3>saw Issu shooting the bow out there on the grounds

0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:39.440
<v Speaker 3>of the University of California, Pope hadn't walked down of

0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:42.920
<v Speaker 3>his office and went down to issue and what are

0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:45.319
<v Speaker 3>you doing. I'm shooting a bow that looks like fun.

0:35:45.800 --> 0:35:49.319
<v Speaker 3>Pope grew up in Texas and there were a lot

0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:52.480
<v Speaker 3>of Natives Americans still around, and they were still shooting

0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:55.440
<v Speaker 3>a bow's but you know it wasn't it was fun.

0:35:55.480 --> 0:35:57.360
<v Speaker 3>It was a game to the right, right, So he

0:35:57.440 --> 0:35:59.960
<v Speaker 3>had been exposed to a bone arrow. But that day

0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:01.600
<v Speaker 3>and when he saw Issue out there on the lawn

0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:03.959
<v Speaker 3>shooting the bow, is when he went out and he said,

0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:05.399
<v Speaker 3>you know what I want to do this. I want

0:36:05.440 --> 0:36:09.200
<v Speaker 3>to become an archer. And eventually then that translated nerd

0:36:09.239 --> 0:36:11.600
<v Speaker 3>transformed into I want to become a bowl hunter.

0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think what made the Ishy story and Pope

0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:21.840
<v Speaker 2>that be such a lightning strike is because of the

0:36:21.920 --> 0:36:26.360
<v Speaker 2>nature of who is. She was completely disconnected from Western civilization.

0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:28.240
<v Speaker 2>And you know, if you listen to the first episode,

0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:30.399
<v Speaker 2>you would have seen each He's like fifty years old,

0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:36.320
<v Speaker 2>been in hiding his entire life. His people were incredibly primitive,

0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:40.400
<v Speaker 2>surprisingly primitive. Like when you understand the history of Native

0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Americans across the country, you see this like slow roll

0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:51.120
<v Speaker 2>of either extermination, removal to reservations, or assimilation essentially, right,

0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:57.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean, And so there were Native Americans presumably that

0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:01.200
<v Speaker 2>were still shooting bows and whatnot in that time. But

0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:04.520
<v Speaker 2>with Ishi, he stepped out of the woods and that

0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:08.120
<v Speaker 2>had been the primary tool for his entire gather protein.

0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:09.879
<v Speaker 3>That's the only thing he knew was the bowl and arrow.

0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:14.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's I want to ask you a question.

0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 2>Do you think men Bear had this conversation yesterday?

0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Ishi?

0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Is this one guy out of that entire civilization that

0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:30.680
<v Speaker 2>was you know, became the epicenter of archery? Do you

0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:36.319
<v Speaker 2>My question is how good was Ishi? Because imagine us

0:37:36.360 --> 0:37:38.640
<v Speaker 2>picking a bow hunter out of all the people that

0:37:38.680 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 2>we know and that guy being the single touch point

0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:47.520
<v Speaker 2>for archery, and like, I wonder if people in his company,

0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:51.640
<v Speaker 2>in his tribe, I mean, even for generations before, would

0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:54.319
<v Speaker 2>have been like one one extreme would have been like

0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Ishi was the best archer, bow hunter, bowyer flint Napper

0:37:59.000 --> 0:38:02.520
<v Speaker 2>of all time. Thank goodness that he was the one

0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:05.080
<v Speaker 2>that made it through to talk to Saxon and Pope.

0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:06.880
<v Speaker 1>Or do you think they would be like.

0:38:07.840 --> 0:38:08.680
<v Speaker 3>You're kidding me, right?

0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:09.520
<v Speaker 1>That guy?

0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:14.600
<v Speaker 2>That guy was Like how you should have had this guy?

0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:16.440
<v Speaker 2>How good do you think she was?

0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:18.160
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I'm going to break that into two. As far

0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:20.239
<v Speaker 3>as Flintnapping goes, I think he must have been one

0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 3>of the best. Really, you look at his points and

0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:25.400
<v Speaker 3>I wish you know, at some point I want you

0:38:25.440 --> 0:38:27.400
<v Speaker 3>to look at the point that I've got of his

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.000
<v Speaker 3>and you see the skill that's in that and to

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:32.799
<v Speaker 3>be able to make a point that precise, and that

0:38:34.000 --> 0:38:36.000
<v Speaker 3>how it is, how hard it is to make one

0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:39.920
<v Speaker 3>thin and still keep that integrity of the point. And

0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:42.480
<v Speaker 3>you know it's this long and and it's so narrow,

0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:44.280
<v Speaker 3>and it's so finally.

0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Made baseline competency though, I mean, do you think, like

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:49.839
<v Speaker 2>everybody was that I've.

0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:53.200
<v Speaker 3>Got some other points that came from that area and

0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:58.080
<v Speaker 3>they're you know, most of those are obsidian points. And

0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:02.480
<v Speaker 3>he Iss, she liked to make points from glass. And

0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:06.120
<v Speaker 3>even before the nineteen eleven, before the capture, he would

0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 3>when they were raiding the stock cabins and they were

0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:12.000
<v Speaker 3>raiding the settlers cabins, they would sometimes steal the plates

0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:13.960
<v Speaker 3>and they would go to the trash pile and get

0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:17.040
<v Speaker 3>the broken plates and they would make points from that.

0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:19.239
<v Speaker 3>Or they would get the you know, the old insulators

0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:21.840
<v Speaker 3>from railroads, or you know, they would get the milk

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:24.640
<v Speaker 3>of magnesia bottles. That would be a favorite for them,

0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:26.760
<v Speaker 3>and they would make it out of glass because glass

0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:31.000
<v Speaker 3>was easier to work than obsidian, and obsidians a volcanic glass.

0:39:31.040 --> 0:39:34.719
<v Speaker 3>But not all obsidian is pure obsidian. There's a lot

0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:41.040
<v Speaker 3>of of abnormalities in the obsidian, but you take a

0:39:41.080 --> 0:39:43.160
<v Speaker 3>glass plate or a bottle or something like that, it's

0:39:43.160 --> 0:39:45.759
<v Speaker 3>pretty pure, so it was easier to make a more

0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:49.880
<v Speaker 3>precise point. So it's maybe not a fair comparison. But

0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:52.200
<v Speaker 3>some of the points that i've that I've got that

0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:55.080
<v Speaker 3>are also from that area. There were you know a

0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:56.960
<v Speaker 3>lot of people call them the Milk Creeks, you know,

0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:01.759
<v Speaker 3>the Yahee, also known as the Creek Indians because they

0:40:01.800 --> 0:40:05.200
<v Speaker 3>came from the Mill Creek area. And those points are

0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:09.200
<v Speaker 3>still fairly well made, you know, but they're not Issue quality.

0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:12.160
<v Speaker 3>Maybe that's because Issue was really really good at what

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.920
<v Speaker 3>he did, and maybe it's because of the media he

0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:17.279
<v Speaker 3>worked in, you know, in the glass the bottles and

0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:20.200
<v Speaker 3>the plates and things was easier to work than obsidian.

0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Regardless, it's got a point to the high level of

0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:25.959
<v Speaker 1>skill that that society had.

0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:29.040
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely you just think of the chances of just picking

0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:32.680
<v Speaker 2>one guy, yeah, out of that that stream of people

0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:35.560
<v Speaker 2>for generations and him being as competent as is.

0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:38.160
<v Speaker 1>She was right pretty unique.

0:40:38.120 --> 0:40:40.160
<v Speaker 3>You know, as far as it's hunting and shooting ability.

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:43.520
<v Speaker 3>There there's a lot of documentation that Pope wrote about

0:40:43.680 --> 0:40:46.000
<v Speaker 3>and some of the others wrote about is his shooting

0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:49.520
<v Speaker 3>skills were good, but they weren't. You know, he wasn't

0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:51.600
<v Speaker 3>going to be an Olympic caliber archer. But that's not

0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:53.400
<v Speaker 3>what he trained for and that's not you know, he

0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:56.239
<v Speaker 3>was about getting the animal close, because when you lose

0:40:56.280 --> 0:40:59.279
<v Speaker 3>an arrow at an animal and his culture, you know,

0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:02.880
<v Speaker 3>that was dinner. And if if this doesn't work, if

0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:04.560
<v Speaker 3>I don't hit him, or I don't kill him, or

0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:08.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't find him, I'm not eating tonight. Well they're

0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:12.200
<v Speaker 3>so they're focusing. They're all their effort was getting the

0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:15.960
<v Speaker 3>animal close. So I don't care about shooting thirty yards.

0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:17.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, we go out and we shoot thirty yards

0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:21.600
<v Speaker 3>forty yards sometimes for fun. He didn't care about that.

0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:26.000
<v Speaker 3>So you know, Pope and especially young were much better shots.

0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:30.240
<v Speaker 1>M okay did is she have a floating anchor?

0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:33.719
<v Speaker 3>His if you look at him, he would anchor more

0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:37.080
<v Speaker 3>into here. And his style of he didn't put his

0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.439
<v Speaker 3>fingers around the string like we do, two fingers under,

0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:43.480
<v Speaker 3>three fingers under. He would pinch the string and bring

0:41:43.520 --> 0:41:44.799
<v Speaker 3>it back and it was more like this.

0:41:45.920 --> 0:41:47.800
<v Speaker 1>What was the weight of the bows that he was making.

0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:51.680
<v Speaker 3>I would guess I've never seen an issue bow, but

0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:53.880
<v Speaker 3>I would guess the bows are probably you know, going

0:41:53.960 --> 0:41:57.319
<v Speaker 3>to be forty pound, you know, they're not heavy.

0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:01.120
<v Speaker 2>And he's pinching that string. Yeah, I guess whatever you

0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:04.080
<v Speaker 2>train yourself to do with your hands, your hands.

0:42:03.840 --> 0:42:06.040
<v Speaker 3>You know, his hands on his feet were so Yeah,

0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:09.000
<v Speaker 3>stories of his feet. You know, they gave him shoes

0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.640
<v Speaker 3>when when they caught him in the stockyard, they gave

0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:14.160
<v Speaker 3>him some clothing and they gave him some shoes, and

0:42:14.200 --> 0:42:17.040
<v Speaker 3>he wouldn't wear the shoes. They weren't comfortable to him.

0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:20.439
<v Speaker 3>But his feet were so calloused and so rough. He's

0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:23.080
<v Speaker 3>you know that he didn't need the shoes. Yeah, and

0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:25.279
<v Speaker 3>so yeah, if you've done this all your life, if

0:42:25.320 --> 0:42:27.520
<v Speaker 3>you walked over rocks all your life, if you've drawn

0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:30.239
<v Speaker 3>the bow this way all your life, you know, just

0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:32.560
<v Speaker 3>like playing a guitar, you're gonna have callouses, you know,

0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:34.719
<v Speaker 3>and your body's going to adapt to that.

0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Bear showing your fingers.

0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:42.880
<v Speaker 6>I've been shooting with two fingers for maybe like eight months,

0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:46.959
<v Speaker 6>and the two fingers that I pull back with are

0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:48.680
<v Speaker 6>like significantly bigger.

0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:49.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:53.040
<v Speaker 1>Of course he's been shooting without a fingertab. Yeah, So

0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:56.120
<v Speaker 1>it's just been grat, which if you don't know traditional archery,

0:42:56.200 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 1>that's pretty most people. I don't do that pretty hardcore.

0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:00.279
<v Speaker 1>I shoot three.

0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Fingers under, which isn't necessarily that popular either, but I

0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:06.279
<v Speaker 2>use a finger tab. It's if I pull back a

0:43:06.320 --> 0:43:09.840
<v Speaker 2>traditional bow much over forty pounds with bare fingers, it

0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:10.800
<v Speaker 2>hurts my fingers.

0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:11.160
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:43:11.200 --> 0:43:13.480
<v Speaker 2>The bear the other day was like, hey, Dad, look

0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:17.160
<v Speaker 2>at my hands, and his fingers are like notably bigger

0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:19.520
<v Speaker 2>on the two that he's been working. So, I mean

0:43:19.520 --> 0:43:22.200
<v Speaker 2>you're starting to see, Yeah, you do that your whole life.

0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 4>There's an illustration in one of the books that Gene

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:28.640
<v Speaker 4>has of issues bowhand too, and the way he the

0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:29.320
<v Speaker 4>way he.

0:43:29.080 --> 0:43:30.120
<v Speaker 3>Held more or less.

0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:33.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's weird. How he used his fingers for a rest.

0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:35.120
<v Speaker 4>I can't I can't even.

0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:37.600
<v Speaker 3>Oh you're talking about the bowhands, the string head.

0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:40.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, the way he had he was.

0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:43.560
<v Speaker 3>He would somehow I can't even try to recreate it here,

0:43:43.600 --> 0:43:46.520
<v Speaker 3>but he would use his hand. We don't. He didn't

0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:48.680
<v Speaker 3>have a shelf on his bow, he didn't have a

0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:50.719
<v Speaker 3>rest on his bow. The arrow would lay on his

0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:51.680
<v Speaker 3>on his fist.

0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:54.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but he tucked his thumb.

0:43:54.080 --> 0:43:56.200
<v Speaker 6>It was like a weird his thumb was the shelf.

0:43:56.360 --> 0:44:09.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like, yeah, I've seen it. It's it's man. Yeah,

0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:10.840
<v Speaker 1>they must have been getting stuff close.

0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:13.399
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And that's the whole point, you know, and deer

0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:16.880
<v Speaker 3>where I got to say, you know, we both hunted

0:44:17.040 --> 0:44:19.680
<v Speaker 3>a lot, and sometimes you get into an area where

0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:22.440
<v Speaker 3>the animals haven't been hunted as often or as hard,

0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:25.360
<v Speaker 3>and they're not as wary. So you know, I'm thinking,

0:44:25.400 --> 0:44:27.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, they're not the white tail in California at

0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:31.040
<v Speaker 3>that time period. We're probably not as weary as the

0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:33.640
<v Speaker 3>white tail we have today, which see people every day

0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:37.920
<v Speaker 3>have arrowshot at them every week, so you know, it

0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:39.960
<v Speaker 3>might have been a little different game to get animals

0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:43.080
<v Speaker 3>closer to them.

0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:47.000
<v Speaker 2>So you're in your museum though you've got like twenty

0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:49.400
<v Speaker 2>three hundred over two thousand bows and.

0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:52.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I felcus again back to that. You know, we

0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:54.000
<v Speaker 3>get a little rabbit hole now and then, but they

0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:56.920
<v Speaker 3>come back out of the rabbit hole. Now. What I

0:44:57.080 --> 0:44:59.680
<v Speaker 3>like are the pre nineteen fifty and that's the era

0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:02.799
<v Speaker 3>where you know, I call it the pioneering era. From

0:45:02.800 --> 0:45:06.359
<v Speaker 3>eighteen seventies to nineteen fifty. This is when people are

0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:09.600
<v Speaker 3>starting to really get into the sport for the first time.

0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.160
<v Speaker 3>You know, we don't have books to read, we don't

0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:15.359
<v Speaker 3>have magazines, we don't have videos, and we're going out

0:45:15.400 --> 0:45:17.600
<v Speaker 3>and we're shooting a bow and arrow. But it looks

0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:19.319
<v Speaker 3>like fun. It sounds like fun. It is fun, But

0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:22.719
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what I'm doing. How does an arrow work?

0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:25.040
<v Speaker 3>What kind of broadhead should I be using. They didn't

0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:28.040
<v Speaker 3>know that a broadhead had to be raiz or sharp,

0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:31.600
<v Speaker 3>surgical sharp. They didn't know that, you know, all the

0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:33.920
<v Speaker 3>things that we take for granted today about hunting with

0:45:33.960 --> 0:45:36.359
<v Speaker 3>a ball and arrow. They were learning, they were discovering.

0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:38.879
<v Speaker 3>And even when I started, I started my first year

0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:42.239
<v Speaker 3>bowling was for deer was nineteen seventy, and a lot

0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:45.080
<v Speaker 3>of the things I was taught in nineteen seventy aren't true.

0:45:45.280 --> 0:45:47.120
<v Speaker 3>I was taught that you wanted to get an arrow

0:45:47.160 --> 0:45:49.359
<v Speaker 3>in a deer, and you wanted the arrow to stay

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:51.200
<v Speaker 3>in a deer because when he ran, you wanted to

0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:54.960
<v Speaker 3>get to cut, you know, cutting more as he was running.

0:45:55.280 --> 0:45:57.839
<v Speaker 3>Well after that, we learned that we need to get

0:45:58.200 --> 0:46:00.800
<v Speaker 3>blood on the ground, and to get blood on the ground,

0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:02.960
<v Speaker 3>you need an exit wound. And that's where you know,

0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:05.840
<v Speaker 3>especially shooting from a tree stand the entrance round's going

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:07.879
<v Speaker 3>to be high, the exit wound's going to be low,

0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:09.600
<v Speaker 3>and your your blood trail is going to come from

0:46:09.640 --> 0:46:12.840
<v Speaker 3>down here. So we want complete pass through to be

0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:15.200
<v Speaker 3>able to get that blood on the ground. Well, for

0:46:15.239 --> 0:46:17.560
<v Speaker 3>that to happen, we want that arrow to pass through

0:46:17.560 --> 0:46:22.719
<v Speaker 3>the animal as quickly, in effort effortlessly as possible. We

0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:24.520
<v Speaker 3>don't want the arrow to stay in the animal because

0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.359
<v Speaker 3>we're not going to get a blood trail. So they

0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:29.400
<v Speaker 3>were learning all this stuff, you know, they were writing

0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:31.920
<v Speaker 3>the books, and that's the period I like. That's the

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.720
<v Speaker 3>period I like to focus on. So when I'm looking

0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:37.680
<v Speaker 3>for things in my collection, I'm not looking for, you know,

0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:41.600
<v Speaker 3>a nineteen seventy Bear Kodiak, they're great bows. I'm looking

0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:45.000
<v Speaker 3>for something that was a wood bow that was made

0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:49.000
<v Speaker 3>by somebody with a spokeshave and a draw knife over

0:46:49.040 --> 0:46:52.479
<v Speaker 3>their workbench and their blood, sweat and tears are still

0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:54.440
<v Speaker 3>their DNA are still on that wood, you know, And

0:46:54.520 --> 0:46:56.360
<v Speaker 3>that's the that's the kind of stuff I like in

0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:56.960
<v Speaker 3>my collection.

0:46:57.239 --> 0:46:57.680
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:46:57.840 --> 0:47:01.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, in seventy years it will be Iron Bears, classic

0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:02.759
<v Speaker 4>bows and putting them in him.

0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:04.520
<v Speaker 3>He's gonna sign it though.

0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:10.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I wanna I wanna ask you two to give

0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:13.520
<v Speaker 2>us some place to start. What what stood out to you,

0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Josh in this second episode.

0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:18.560
<v Speaker 4>Man, it's such a it's it's such a powerful story.

0:47:18.560 --> 0:47:20.680
<v Speaker 4>And I think that there's a lot of things that

0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:23.680
<v Speaker 4>us in modern society could pull from the life of

0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:29.000
<v Speaker 4>Ishi after his emergence. And I think, I think, I'm

0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:32.719
<v Speaker 4>I'm drawn to the character of Ishi. Yeah, and I

0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:39.319
<v Speaker 4>have great appreciation because the injustices that were done to

0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:41.120
<v Speaker 4>his people and to him.

0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:42.680
<v Speaker 3>And he was an eyewitness to all of.

0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:47.480
<v Speaker 4>Those exactly, were incalculable to us, like we can't even

0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:51.520
<v Speaker 4>be compared, like we we don't understand that. But to

0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:56.360
<v Speaker 4>take this man from a jail cell in Oroville to

0:47:56.520 --> 0:48:01.239
<v Speaker 4>Berkeley and for his I don't want to say assimilation,

0:48:01.280 --> 0:48:03.880
<v Speaker 4>because I don't know that is she assimilated, But his

0:48:04.040 --> 0:48:11.759
<v Speaker 4>adaptation to life inside of modern society was incredible. And

0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:17.880
<v Speaker 4>the way that he was able to I can't imagine

0:48:17.880 --> 0:48:21.160
<v Speaker 4>that is she ever forgot about his family or how

0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:25.919
<v Speaker 4>he lived, but how he didn't carry that, I don't

0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:28.879
<v Speaker 4>know another way to say it. Then he walked through

0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:32.400
<v Speaker 4>a fire, came out and didn't smell like smoke, and

0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:37.400
<v Speaker 4>he was able to live his life joyful, build strong

0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:41.959
<v Speaker 4>relationships with people that he cared about, live a life

0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:47.960
<v Speaker 4>in a world that was completely unimaginable to him previously.

0:48:48.960 --> 0:48:52.640
<v Speaker 4>I think it's just commendable for a human being, And

0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:56.520
<v Speaker 4>that is really what impacted me when I hear his story.

0:48:56.600 --> 0:48:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Jan said it a couple of times just about the

0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:01.160
<v Speaker 2>care character of the character.

0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:03.640
<v Speaker 3>The character of the man was incredible.

0:49:04.000 --> 0:49:04.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, he.

0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:12.919
<v Speaker 3>Comes out of hiding in nineteen eleven and he's seen

0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:16.320
<v Speaker 3>his whole family, his whole culture, his whole tribe killed

0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:20.600
<v Speaker 3>before his eyes. These are things he's eyewitness to, and

0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:23.160
<v Speaker 3>he comes out of that in nineteen eleven, comes down

0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:26.600
<v Speaker 3>into that stockyard, and within a matter of two months

0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:31.319
<v Speaker 3>he's at the University of California and they're opening the

0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:35.640
<v Speaker 3>anthropology wing, and of course Issue's going to be a

0:49:35.680 --> 0:49:39.440
<v Speaker 3>focus of the new anthropology wing they're opening. And so

0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:42.239
<v Speaker 3>they have all these dignitaries coming from all over the

0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:44.560
<v Speaker 3>country to come to the opening. They would have come anyhow,

0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:46.680
<v Speaker 3>but they're coming really now. Especially I want to see

0:49:46.719 --> 0:49:51.960
<v Speaker 3>Issue while I'm here. So he's got to transform from

0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:55.040
<v Speaker 3>this stone age man to this man who's going to

0:49:55.040 --> 0:50:01.239
<v Speaker 3>be welcoming dignitaries at the university opening of their new

0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:05.359
<v Speaker 3>anthropology department in just a matter of two months. So

0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:11.160
<v Speaker 3>he's in good clothing and he's taught enough English to

0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:14.520
<v Speaker 3>be able to welcome those people. And when he welcomes

0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:18.560
<v Speaker 3>those people in his culture, in his mind, he has

0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:21.000
<v Speaker 3>to give them the respect to say their name.

0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:24.200
<v Speaker 1>So that was something that he was doing on his own.

0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.200
<v Speaker 3>He was doing that on his own. He wasn't coached

0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:28.120
<v Speaker 3>to do that. That was part of his culture, That

0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:31.520
<v Speaker 3>was part of his his respect, you know, for other people.

0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:37.320
<v Speaker 3>So when he would be introduced to somebody, he would hello, mister,

0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:41.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, he would repeat their name on purpose, because

0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:44.080
<v Speaker 3>that was his way of showing respect to people who

0:50:44.080 --> 0:50:47.400
<v Speaker 3>have killed his tribe, his family just a matter of

0:50:47.440 --> 0:50:50.600
<v Speaker 3>years before that. And that was that was a sign

0:50:50.680 --> 0:50:51.600
<v Speaker 3>of his culture, you know.

0:50:52.040 --> 0:50:55.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's interesting because it was said and Krober

0:50:55.560 --> 0:51:00.520
<v Speaker 2>said it in her book, but about how he wouldn't

0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:05.279
<v Speaker 2>say his name because there was no one, no one, no.

0:51:05.239 --> 0:51:06.600
<v Speaker 3>One left alive to give me a name.

0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Yes, but that was the story he gave.

0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:11.480
<v Speaker 3>Of course he had a name, you know, that was

0:51:11.520 --> 0:51:14.279
<v Speaker 3>the story he gave them. But of course he had

0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:17.320
<v Speaker 3>a name. Yes, he just in his culture, you weren't

0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:19.000
<v Speaker 3>allowed to say your own name, you.

0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:22.640
<v Speaker 2>Know, right, Well, it's interesting that he was doing what like,

0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:25.400
<v Speaker 2>by him saying your name, it kind of validates that

0:51:25.520 --> 0:51:27.200
<v Speaker 2>ye like, I'm not going to say my name.

0:51:27.239 --> 0:51:31.440
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, it's very important for me to know your name, yes,

0:51:31.520 --> 0:51:33.560
<v Speaker 3>but it's not so important for me to be speaking

0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:35.520
<v Speaker 3>my name. So it was, you know, again back to

0:51:35.560 --> 0:51:37.920
<v Speaker 3>the culture of that society that it was not all

0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:42.160
<v Speaker 3>about me, it was about you. It was about us, you.

0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Know that that right, that statement right there, and the

0:51:44.480 --> 0:51:49.160
<v Speaker 2>stuff about the name, I just my brain just spends

0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:53.520
<v Speaker 2>when I try to understand what it would be like

0:51:53.960 --> 0:52:01.920
<v Speaker 2>to not have this Western ideology of this individualistic society

0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:06.600
<v Speaker 2>is so deep, it's so deep inside of us, this

0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:10.240
<v Speaker 2>idea of exceptional like personal exceptionalism.

0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:10.520
<v Speaker 3>Me.

0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Look what I've done.

0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:14.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean even the We've talked about it in other things,

0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:16.640
<v Speaker 2>but we did a we did a series on to

0:52:16.760 --> 0:52:20.320
<v Speaker 2>comes to the Shawnee Leader, and I talked to Ben Barnes,

0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:23.560
<v Speaker 2>the chief of the Shawnee today, a modern chief, and

0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:28.279
<v Speaker 2>he says that in their language, even the structure of

0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:32.280
<v Speaker 2>language and where they put nouns is different than English.

0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:37.520
<v Speaker 2>English emphasizes who, what, who did it? Like if I

0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:41.040
<v Speaker 2>say something, I say I cook the soup, the emphasis

0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:45.440
<v Speaker 2>on I, And in the Shawnee language the emphasis would

0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:46.360
<v Speaker 2>not be on.

0:52:46.360 --> 0:52:49.880
<v Speaker 1>You, me or who did it? The soup was cooked.

0:52:50.800 --> 0:52:54.040
<v Speaker 1>And you know the point is we are.

0:52:54.840 --> 0:52:58.160
<v Speaker 3>It's foreign to us, but it's there's something to be

0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:00.480
<v Speaker 3>learned from that, right. I think there's a a good

0:53:00.640 --> 0:53:04.640
<v Speaker 3>moral lesson there for us. And I think another interesting story,

0:53:04.640 --> 0:53:06.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, in that time period there where he's again

0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:09.080
<v Speaker 3>he's just come out of this stone age culture and

0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:12.520
<v Speaker 3>how he's living in you know, the University of California

0:53:12.560 --> 0:53:15.360
<v Speaker 3>and meeting all these dignitaries from all over the world,

0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:19.080
<v Speaker 3>and he would be invited to go into these different rooms,

0:53:19.160 --> 0:53:22.880
<v Speaker 3>different meetings and such. And when he walked into the room,

0:53:23.080 --> 0:53:24.839
<v Speaker 3>one of the things he would always say to people

0:53:24.880 --> 0:53:27.040
<v Speaker 3>as he walked in and he was trying again to

0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:30.520
<v Speaker 3>speak English, you know, he was trying to assimilate, you know,

0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:34.040
<v Speaker 3>his into this new world. And when he walked into

0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:39.360
<v Speaker 3>the room, he would say, everybody happy, And it was

0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:41.960
<v Speaker 3>really important for him. It was really important for him

0:53:42.239 --> 0:53:44.120
<v Speaker 3>to know that everybody in the room was feeling good.

0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:47.160
<v Speaker 3>Are you happy? You know, everybidy happy. You can just

0:53:47.200 --> 0:53:51.520
<v Speaker 3>imagine his accent, you know, saying that. And I think

0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:56.480
<v Speaker 3>that's just another another aspect of who he was as

0:53:56.520 --> 0:53:59.239
<v Speaker 3>a man. But I think he was as a man

0:53:59.360 --> 0:54:01.520
<v Speaker 3>probably as he was the culture.

0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I'm just imagining him walking into his camp

0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:09.480
<v Speaker 2>on Mill Creek with his mother and his sister cousin.

0:54:09.760 --> 0:54:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that was part of their culture.

0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:13.440
<v Speaker 3>It was part of their culture.

0:54:13.760 --> 0:54:14.600
<v Speaker 1>It would have had to have been.

0:54:14.640 --> 0:54:17.280
<v Speaker 2>And that's what's so unique about issue that will never,

0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:21.799
<v Speaker 2>at least on this continent that never have another opportunity

0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to is to deal with somebody that was that isolated

0:54:25.320 --> 0:54:30.520
<v Speaker 2>from Western society and to draw these conclusions about who

0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:32.799
<v Speaker 2>they were. Here's the questions that I have though, Like

0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:36.319
<v Speaker 2>talking about how happy is she was, It's possible a

0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:40.040
<v Speaker 2>critic today could be like, what was he really happy?

0:54:41.160 --> 0:54:42.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, and we all know.

0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:47.399
<v Speaker 2>That humans we're supposed to not just tell every We

0:54:47.440 --> 0:54:51.240
<v Speaker 2>live in a restraint as powerful like if I'm unhappy

0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:54.759
<v Speaker 2>right now, like you don't have to know about it.

0:54:54.800 --> 0:54:59.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, so, like, I wonder how how traumatic, how

0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 2>much his front of being happy and cordial I was real.

0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:07.640
<v Speaker 3>Here's what I think, and I feel pretty confident in this.

0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:11.080
<v Speaker 3>When when the door was closed, he had to shed tears.

0:55:11.719 --> 0:55:15.759
<v Speaker 3>He had to. But when the door was open, that

0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.640
<v Speaker 3>was the real issue. You know, the inside of issue

0:55:18.640 --> 0:55:22.240
<v Speaker 3>was a happy person. The inside of issue was an optimist.

0:55:22.880 --> 0:55:25.319
<v Speaker 3>When the door was closed, the memories had to come back.

0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:25.800
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:55:26.560 --> 0:55:30.920
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, Yeah, it's wild that he didn't hold any or

0:55:30.920 --> 0:55:33.000
<v Speaker 7>at least it doesn't seem like he held any bitterness

0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:34.160
<v Speaker 7>towards right.

0:55:34.160 --> 0:55:37.040
<v Speaker 1>The people that wiped out his whole culture.

0:55:37.200 --> 0:55:37.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I think I think that bitterness, though, is an artifact

0:55:41.440 --> 0:55:44.400
<v Speaker 2>of our modern society.

0:55:45.719 --> 0:55:46.359
<v Speaker 1>I really do.

0:55:46.719 --> 0:55:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Like I don't think he would have known that he

0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:54.200
<v Speaker 2>had permission, and I don't know, not permission from a person,

0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:59.480
<v Speaker 2>That's not what I mean, but like like bitterness, I

0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:03.719
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I think really there's something inside of there's

0:56:03.760 --> 0:56:07.640
<v Speaker 2>something about knowledge and the communication and the all the

0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:12.240
<v Speaker 2>biases that we have about other people or other social

0:56:12.320 --> 0:56:16.400
<v Speaker 2>classes of people or people from wherever that like you kind.

0:56:16.280 --> 0:56:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Of like, you know, I'm going to feel like you can.

0:56:19.440 --> 0:56:21.840
<v Speaker 3>Just just hit me, as you said that, just hit me.

0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:24.799
<v Speaker 3>The world today is filled so full of hate, and

0:56:24.880 --> 0:56:27.280
<v Speaker 3>I wonder if hate was a concept that he even had,

0:56:27.360 --> 0:56:29.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, and.

0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:30.839
<v Speaker 4>Maybe that was the Well, that's an interesting thought.

0:56:31.120 --> 0:56:33.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, just you know, everything that's happened over the last

0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:36.279
<v Speaker 3>few weeks, months, and even years. You know, hate is

0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:40.040
<v Speaker 3>a big part of our culture today. Wow. See, if

0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:42.759
<v Speaker 3>we didn't have hate, maybe that's what's separated in.

0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Well and the fact that we could imagine a culture

0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:49.040
<v Speaker 2>that didn't have hate, Yeah, because you know, you think

0:56:49.080 --> 0:56:52.160
<v Speaker 2>about you would think, Ischi with this little tight group

0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:55.960
<v Speaker 2>of people that have been exterminated, that his family would

0:56:56.000 --> 0:56:58.000
<v Speaker 2>have been sitting up on that mountain looking down there,

0:56:58.040 --> 0:57:01.279
<v Speaker 2>saying those evil people, Yeah, it's trying to kill us.

0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:03.759
<v Speaker 2>We've got to And maybe they weren't.

0:57:03.640 --> 0:57:05.400
<v Speaker 3>You know. And I've got a bookshelf full of books

0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:08.279
<v Speaker 3>on issue. You know, Krober's book is one, and that's

0:57:08.280 --> 0:57:10.000
<v Speaker 3>the most well known, but there's a lot of books.

0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:14.319
<v Speaker 3>I brought several here today, every book that I've read

0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:16.520
<v Speaker 3>about issue over the years. Nothing in there is ever

0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:21.480
<v Speaker 3>makes you believe there was there was animosity, you know,

0:57:21.760 --> 0:57:25.240
<v Speaker 3>hate or animosity, whichever word you want to use. Nothing

0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:27.400
<v Speaker 3>in there ever leads me to believe that he or

0:57:27.480 --> 0:57:32.760
<v Speaker 3>his family members ever had any of that feeling even

0:57:32.800 --> 0:57:33.920
<v Speaker 3>while they were all alive.

0:57:34.680 --> 0:57:36.760
<v Speaker 2>That's an odd place to be though, when you when

0:57:36.800 --> 0:57:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you know that these people are after you to kill you.

0:57:40.720 --> 0:57:44.320
<v Speaker 2>They the surveyors that stole all their gear and supplies,

0:57:44.360 --> 0:57:47.040
<v Speaker 2>which is just it's just hard to imagine.

0:57:47.400 --> 0:57:48.920
<v Speaker 1>It's also I also.

0:57:48.800 --> 0:57:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Know that historical revision is really complicated for us today

0:57:53.320 --> 0:57:56.960
<v Speaker 2>to be like, oh, those you know, barbarians, How could

0:57:56.960 --> 0:58:01.439
<v Speaker 2>they do that? I mean, you know, in their time,

0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:03.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, for some reason they felt the liberty

0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:06.080
<v Speaker 2>to take take that stuff from them?

0:58:06.120 --> 0:58:06.520
<v Speaker 3>How could you?

0:58:06.560 --> 0:58:06.640
<v Speaker 1>Do?

0:58:06.760 --> 0:58:09.640
<v Speaker 3>You know this? This old lady is obviously on her deathbed,

0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:12.960
<v Speaker 3>laying there in the camp, and she's under the covers,

0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:16.240
<v Speaker 3>and you steal everything. You steal everything except the bed

0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:18.640
<v Speaker 3>and the covers that she's got. You take everything that

0:58:18.680 --> 0:58:21.320
<v Speaker 3>they need to make food, to get food, to gather food,

0:58:21.720 --> 0:58:24.360
<v Speaker 3>the baskets to carry the food. They take it all

0:58:24.480 --> 0:58:27.560
<v Speaker 3>as souvenirs and leave the lady laying there. I mean,

0:58:27.560 --> 0:58:30.360
<v Speaker 3>what kind of person does that take?

0:58:30.480 --> 0:58:34.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's that's one of the wild stories.

0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:36.360
<v Speaker 3>That's one of the ones that makes me just cringe,

0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:39.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, you know, I just you know, human nature

0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:45.480
<v Speaker 3>can sometimes maybe there's evil in us that is buried deep,

0:58:46.280 --> 0:58:50.080
<v Speaker 3>and most of us keep that buried deep and sometimes

0:58:50.120 --> 0:58:52.760
<v Speaker 3>it comes to the surface. And that came to the surface.

0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that would be a result of generations of

0:58:55.760 --> 0:58:59.200
<v Speaker 2>not viewing those people as yeah, they're not people's right.

0:58:59.760 --> 0:59:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's just like and there had been that

0:59:05.080 --> 0:59:09.040
<v Speaker 2>was at the tail end of literally a century plus

0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:13.439
<v Speaker 2>long I mean centuries plus long genocide. Yeah, so it's

0:59:13.520 --> 0:59:17.480
<v Speaker 2>like these people were sub sub human, right. I think

0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:19.480
<v Speaker 2>that's the only way that you could just see.

0:59:19.320 --> 0:59:21.280
<v Speaker 3>Way could do it in your mind? How could you sleep?

0:59:21.760 --> 0:59:23.919
<v Speaker 3>You know? The story of Kingsley's Cave, which we talked

0:59:23.920 --> 0:59:27.320
<v Speaker 3>about in the podcast, is one of the last massacres,

0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:30.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, mass massacres of the Yahi. And there were

0:59:31.120 --> 0:59:36.120
<v Speaker 3>about thirty three Yahie in this cave. They had been

0:59:36.360 --> 0:59:44.120
<v Speaker 3>chased by these people, these four vigilantes, and they thirty

0:59:44.160 --> 0:59:47.280
<v Speaker 3>three of the last remaining Yahi's going to this cave

0:59:47.920 --> 0:59:50.280
<v Speaker 3>and these men walk in there with their rifles and

0:59:50.360 --> 0:59:53.160
<v Speaker 3>just start shooting. You know, these people in a cave

0:59:53.280 --> 0:59:56.440
<v Speaker 3>backed up against the wall, and they just men, women

0:59:56.560 --> 1:00:00.200
<v Speaker 3>and children, and they just start shooting. Within One of

1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:04.360
<v Speaker 3>them had a fifty six caliber Sharp's rifle and he's

1:00:04.480 --> 1:00:09.840
<v Speaker 3>just blasting away with this repeater sharps, and he puts

1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:13.480
<v Speaker 3>the rifle down and picks his pistol up to finish

1:00:13.520 --> 1:00:16.080
<v Speaker 3>the job. And you know what he said afterwards, I

1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:19.120
<v Speaker 3>put the rifle down and picked up the pistol because

1:00:19.120 --> 1:00:23.800
<v Speaker 3>the rifle was tearing them up too bad, especially the

1:00:23.840 --> 1:00:24.440
<v Speaker 3>little ones.

1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:27.520
<v Speaker 5>Wow, brute.

1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:31.040
<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh. I mean that makes me cringe sitting

1:00:31.080 --> 1:00:31.640
<v Speaker 3>here today.

1:00:33.360 --> 1:00:37.800
<v Speaker 1>The brutality of it. Wow, incredible.

1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:41.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, But you know, I'll go back to the you know,

1:00:41.760 --> 1:00:44.960
<v Speaker 3>talk about the good things about Ishi. I think again,

1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:48.720
<v Speaker 3>the things we can learn from Ishi. You know, the

1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:51.320
<v Speaker 3>optimist in him. You know, when they went on the

1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:55.520
<v Speaker 3>nineteen forty expedition back up in the Yahee country, he

1:00:55.520 --> 1:00:57.360
<v Speaker 3>didn't want to go because there were too many I

1:00:57.360 --> 1:01:04.480
<v Speaker 3>think you said fourteen fourteen, nineteen fourteen. He takes Pope

1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:10.400
<v Speaker 3>and Waterman and Krober and Pope's son Saxton Junior. Well,

1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:16.000
<v Speaker 3>they planned this trip without him really being involved. And

1:01:16.040 --> 1:01:18.040
<v Speaker 3>then they go to him and say, hey, you know,

1:01:18.120 --> 1:01:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Issu She, We're going to go back up into where

1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:22.520
<v Speaker 3>you came from and we're going to do a little

1:01:22.520 --> 1:01:26.720
<v Speaker 3>expedition back up in there to see all these stories

1:01:26.720 --> 1:01:30.200
<v Speaker 3>you tell us. We want to go see it issues like,

1:01:30.800 --> 1:01:32.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, I don't really want to go. I mean,

1:01:32.840 --> 1:01:34.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, and I can imagine what's going on in

1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:36.320
<v Speaker 3>his mind. There's a lot of ghosts up there that

1:01:36.760 --> 1:01:39.960
<v Speaker 3>all the memories that I don't want to relive. He

1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:41.680
<v Speaker 3>didn't say that, but I got to think that's what

1:01:41.720 --> 1:01:44.960
<v Speaker 3>he's thinking. You know, he didn't want to go. One

1:01:45.080 --> 1:01:47.440
<v Speaker 3>person that I read speculated that he didn't want to

1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:49.560
<v Speaker 3>go because he thought they were going to take him

1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:52.600
<v Speaker 3>back up there and release him, you know, that they're

1:01:52.640 --> 1:01:55.720
<v Speaker 3>going to put him back into the wild. Well, no,

1:01:55.840 --> 1:01:57.320
<v Speaker 3>that's not what they were going to do. They wanted

1:01:57.360 --> 1:02:00.600
<v Speaker 3>to truly go learn more about him, him and his

1:02:00.680 --> 1:02:03.240
<v Speaker 3>culture by going into where he lived and where he

1:02:03.280 --> 1:02:07.520
<v Speaker 3>had for those during those forty years of concealment. So

1:02:07.680 --> 1:02:10.280
<v Speaker 3>they go up into there, and they finally convinced him

1:02:10.280 --> 1:02:12.160
<v Speaker 3>to go up into there, and we talked about that

1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:12.920
<v Speaker 3>in the podcast.

1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:13.280
<v Speaker 5>You know.

1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:16.080
<v Speaker 3>They had to make sure that all the equipment they

1:02:16.120 --> 1:02:19.280
<v Speaker 3>took was stored in a room where it wasn't near

1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:22.400
<v Speaker 3>the bones and all the things in the museum, because

1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:26.760
<v Speaker 3>the spirits would have been not favorable on the trip

1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:28.920
<v Speaker 3>if if that had happened. So they put everything in

1:02:29.000 --> 1:02:31.160
<v Speaker 3>boxes and they shield it at all, you know, and

1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:34.280
<v Speaker 3>convinced him that the spirits can't get into these boxes

1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:36.080
<v Speaker 3>and they go up into the.

1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:39.880
<v Speaker 1>She knew that was hogwash, well my life, but he

1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:41.640
<v Speaker 1>was whatever he said.

1:02:41.840 --> 1:02:44.000
<v Speaker 3>But when he got there, Once he got there, it

1:02:44.040 --> 1:02:48.840
<v Speaker 3>was like you could you know, the relief over him

1:02:48.920 --> 1:02:52.080
<v Speaker 3>to be back home. You know, it feels good to

1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:54.040
<v Speaker 3>be home. It always feels good to be home, right

1:02:55.080 --> 1:02:59.480
<v Speaker 3>that I don't want to go to I'm home feeling

1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:02.120
<v Speaker 3>that he must have had. And then he took them

1:03:02.280 --> 1:03:04.640
<v Speaker 3>around to all the places that he drew up, and

1:03:04.680 --> 1:03:06.720
<v Speaker 3>he you know, where the stories he had been telling

1:03:06.720 --> 1:03:09.600
<v Speaker 3>them about killing the bear when he was a young man,

1:03:09.640 --> 1:03:11.480
<v Speaker 3>he killed a bear and you tah, I like the

1:03:11.520 --> 1:03:13.480
<v Speaker 3>way you said it in the podcast. You know, the

1:03:13.520 --> 1:03:17.520
<v Speaker 3>ceremonial disposal of the carcass was you know, he did that,

1:03:18.400 --> 1:03:20.760
<v Speaker 3>and all these years later he's able to walk them

1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:24.439
<v Speaker 3>back and go to that spot and dig those bones up.

1:03:25.040 --> 1:03:26.240
<v Speaker 3>This is where I killed the bear.

1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:27.160
<v Speaker 5>Wow.

1:03:27.240 --> 1:03:29.800
<v Speaker 3>And you know, and they he took them swimming in

1:03:29.560 --> 1:03:33.440
<v Speaker 3>the holes where he swam as a young man. You know,

1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:35.640
<v Speaker 3>he took them back to the grizzly Bear's hiding place

1:03:35.680 --> 1:03:39.200
<v Speaker 3>where he was with the last four when the surveying

1:03:39.240 --> 1:03:42.800
<v Speaker 3>party found them in nineteen oh eight. He recreated that

1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:45.480
<v Speaker 3>whole experience for them on that trip and that trip

1:03:45.560 --> 1:03:49.440
<v Speaker 3>lasted like six weeks and it was it must you know.

1:03:49.640 --> 1:03:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Can you imagine that that trip, like when my buddy

1:03:53.320 --> 1:03:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Steve Renella always talks about it, he could go on

1:03:55.240 --> 1:03:57.320
<v Speaker 2>a time machine, you know, he'd go back with like

1:03:57.360 --> 1:04:01.200
<v Speaker 2>the Pleistocene hunters and seeing kill mammoths and stuff. That

1:04:01.240 --> 1:04:03.720
<v Speaker 2>trip right there would be high on the list.

1:04:03.760 --> 1:04:05.920
<v Speaker 3>That'd be on my bucket list of the.

1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Time machine trip.

1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:19.000
<v Speaker 2>To imagine going back there with him. The question that

1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:21.280
<v Speaker 2>I have about that trip, and again it's going back

1:04:21.480 --> 1:04:26.080
<v Speaker 2>trying to get into the head of Ishi. But would

1:04:26.080 --> 1:04:28.720
<v Speaker 2>he have wanted to go back? And if he could,

1:04:28.800 --> 1:04:30.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean like to go back and live like because

1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:32.000
<v Speaker 2>you think about.

1:04:31.840 --> 1:04:34.600
<v Speaker 3>No, he and the you know the books talk about that,

1:04:34.800 --> 1:04:38.760
<v Speaker 3>and his feelings were No, that's that's the old me.

1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:41.840
<v Speaker 3>The new me is here. I'm happy now. I'm happy

1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:45.360
<v Speaker 3>at the university, I'm happy with my job. I'm happy.

1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:48.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that's true because there could And again I'm

1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:50.920
<v Speaker 2>playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate, but just kind

1:04:50.960 --> 1:04:53.720
<v Speaker 2>of trying to answer some question, you know, historical revision.

1:04:53.720 --> 1:04:55.880
<v Speaker 2>You go back and you say, was the guy really

1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:58.960
<v Speaker 2>happy or was he just appeasing his captors?

1:04:59.000 --> 1:05:01.120
<v Speaker 1>How much agency? Actually, there's got.

1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:02.440
<v Speaker 3>To be there's got to be truth to both of that,

1:05:02.600 --> 1:05:06.920
<v Speaker 3>because I think again, the stories and the memories must

1:05:06.960 --> 1:05:12.200
<v Speaker 3>have been overwhelming, and as a person, you me, all

1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:13.960
<v Speaker 3>of us would be the same way if we'd witnessed

1:05:14.000 --> 1:05:16.560
<v Speaker 3>the genocide of our people, of our family. I don't

1:05:16.560 --> 1:05:19.000
<v Speaker 3>know that I want to go back there. It's painful.

1:05:20.520 --> 1:05:22.640
<v Speaker 3>But on the other hand, if I pushed those out

1:05:22.680 --> 1:05:25.320
<v Speaker 3>of my mind, you know, that was home, that was

1:05:25.640 --> 1:05:29.040
<v Speaker 3>where I came from. That's me. So I think that's

1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:32.000
<v Speaker 3>where he transformed. You know, when they first approached him,

1:05:32.000 --> 1:05:34.920
<v Speaker 3>he was like, no, not going, not going to do it,

1:05:35.000 --> 1:05:36.640
<v Speaker 3>and then he was like once he got there.

1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:43.200
<v Speaker 2>I also know that we it's a very difficult thing

1:05:43.280 --> 1:05:47.560
<v Speaker 2>to not over romanticize, like his life living off the

1:05:47.680 --> 1:05:52.440
<v Speaker 2>land too. I mean, I think it's possible that he

1:05:52.480 --> 1:05:56.560
<v Speaker 2>would have come into civilization to California and he would

1:05:56.600 --> 1:05:58.640
<v Speaker 2>have been like, oh, I can.

1:05:58.520 --> 1:05:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Eat three times a day.

1:05:59.760 --> 1:06:01.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know have to.

1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:05.760
<v Speaker 1>This bed is pretty comfortable. Yeah, these people are pretty nice.

1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, in our mind and modern civilization, like now

1:06:09.800 --> 1:06:12.240
<v Speaker 2>we have this romantic thing like we're trying to go back,

1:06:12.320 --> 1:06:13.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're like, oh, man, if he could have

1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:18.760
<v Speaker 2>just roam the woods man, he sounds like, by all accounts,

1:06:19.600 --> 1:06:22.400
<v Speaker 2>he came back in he came into this place and

1:06:22.560 --> 1:06:26.360
<v Speaker 2>was just like this is this is the way I

1:06:26.400 --> 1:06:29.520
<v Speaker 2>want to live. I mean, and that's that's probably not

1:06:29.640 --> 1:06:30.560
<v Speaker 2>fair to say that.

1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:35.800
<v Speaker 3>You know, the relief of not having to worry, not

1:06:36.000 --> 1:06:39.600
<v Speaker 3>just about being able to sustain my life through hunting

1:06:39.600 --> 1:06:42.680
<v Speaker 3>and fishing and gathering, but the relief of not being

1:06:42.760 --> 1:06:45.400
<v Speaker 3>shot at every day, you know, or being fear of

1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:48.800
<v Speaker 3>being shot at every day. It must have been I

1:06:48.800 --> 1:06:52.560
<v Speaker 3>can finally sleep, I can finally relax, I can finally rest.

1:06:53.720 --> 1:06:58.080
<v Speaker 3>It probably not just the creature comforts that he had,

1:06:58.360 --> 1:06:59.760
<v Speaker 3>but it was the life that he had.

1:07:00.160 --> 1:07:00.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1:07:01.120 --> 1:07:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, wow, man, it wouldn't it have been incredible if

1:07:05.120 --> 1:07:07.360
<v Speaker 1>he would have lived twenty five years.

1:07:07.440 --> 1:07:09.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the more we could have learned from him.

1:07:09.200 --> 1:07:10.760
<v Speaker 1>That's the saddest part of the deal.

1:07:10.800 --> 1:07:14.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, people as should probably learn if they listen

1:07:14.800 --> 1:07:16.920
<v Speaker 2>to Bear Grease and it's an old story, there's going

1:07:17.000 --> 1:07:19.760
<v Speaker 2>to be some tragic yeah, inside of it. Almost all

1:07:19.840 --> 1:07:23.800
<v Speaker 2>these stories end in a tragic way. But I mean, now,

1:07:23.840 --> 1:07:26.720
<v Speaker 2>the fact that he was here for five years is it.

1:07:26.840 --> 1:07:29.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm grateful for that. I mean he could

1:07:29.520 --> 1:07:33.000
<v Speaker 2>have come in and died at tuberculosis in six months. O.

1:07:33.560 --> 1:07:35.640
<v Speaker 3>You know, maybe he would have came in and not

1:07:35.840 --> 1:07:39.200
<v Speaker 3>been associated with Krober and Waterman and Pope. You know,

1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:43.000
<v Speaker 3>everything just came together. You know, it could have been

1:07:43.200 --> 1:07:47.120
<v Speaker 3>scripted any better. Yeah, for those people, you know, Edwin Sappier,

1:07:47.200 --> 1:07:51.520
<v Speaker 3>the linguist, Krober and Waterman, the anthropologists, Pope, the doctor

1:07:52.280 --> 1:07:54.520
<v Speaker 3>to have all come into the story and all of

1:07:54.520 --> 1:07:58.720
<v Speaker 3>them been the people they were, They really helped you

1:07:58.760 --> 1:08:02.800
<v Speaker 3>know that story Flower, Yeah, you know, issue could have

1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:06.880
<v Speaker 3>been captured, taken somewhere and the story would have been over.

1:08:07.480 --> 1:08:09.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah without those people.

1:08:09.800 --> 1:08:10.240
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:14.040
<v Speaker 7>What I've found most interesting about the podcast, and just

1:08:14.120 --> 1:08:19.120
<v Speaker 7>like listening to the whole story, was like how Ischi

1:08:19.280 --> 1:08:24.720
<v Speaker 7>was kind of this like bottleneck of knowledge, Like all

1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:28.240
<v Speaker 7>the knowledge from like thousands of years got passed through

1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:31.120
<v Speaker 7>one man. Yeah, and you just wonder how much of

1:08:31.120 --> 1:08:34.400
<v Speaker 7>that was lost. Like like whenever you look at like

1:08:35.200 --> 1:08:39.000
<v Speaker 7>Arkansas Black Bears, they had this major population bottleneck and

1:08:39.040 --> 1:08:42.720
<v Speaker 7>so now like the genetic diversity is still recovering. It's

1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:44.640
<v Speaker 7>the same way with all that knowledge, it kind of

1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:48.800
<v Speaker 7>came down to this really tight bottleneck where it was

1:08:48.880 --> 1:08:51.680
<v Speaker 7>just ischy, and then now it's kind of back on

1:08:51.760 --> 1:08:54.839
<v Speaker 7>the you know, like the knowledge is kind of being spread,

1:08:54.880 --> 1:08:56.720
<v Speaker 7>but I'm sure a lot of it is kind of

1:08:56.720 --> 1:08:59.839
<v Speaker 7>being rediscovered. I'm sure, Like you just have to imagine

1:08:59.840 --> 1:09:02.240
<v Speaker 7>how much of it would have been lost? Yeah, like

1:09:02.280 --> 1:09:04.400
<v Speaker 7>how much we don't know. I mean, like the fact

1:09:04.400 --> 1:09:07.479
<v Speaker 7>that easy could go kill a deer in three days

1:09:08.360 --> 1:09:11.479
<v Speaker 7>is like, you know, with a primitive weapon. Like I

1:09:11.600 --> 1:09:14.280
<v Speaker 7>tried all season last year to do that and couldn't

1:09:14.320 --> 1:09:18.040
<v Speaker 7>do it. So it's like it just makes you wonder

1:09:18.080 --> 1:09:22.200
<v Speaker 7>how much did the generations of knowledge?

1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:23.840
<v Speaker 1>How much of that got lost?

1:09:24.240 --> 1:09:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, we had this conversation yesterday about they go

1:09:27.840 --> 1:09:29.559
<v Speaker 2>up there and in three days kill a deer with

1:09:29.600 --> 1:09:30.400
<v Speaker 2>a primitive bow.

1:09:31.040 --> 1:09:32.280
<v Speaker 1>It's like that's pretty hard.

1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:36.080
<v Speaker 2>I challenge anybody in the country with a primitive bow,

1:09:36.520 --> 1:09:38.479
<v Speaker 2>and there's got there's guys that do it and can

1:09:38.560 --> 1:09:42.479
<v Speaker 2>and have and we've done it. But you know, I've

1:09:42.520 --> 1:09:44.439
<v Speaker 2>got just on the spot to just go kill a

1:09:44.479 --> 1:09:45.439
<v Speaker 2>deer with a bow.

1:09:45.880 --> 1:09:47.760
<v Speaker 3>Of one of the back We're going to back up

1:09:47.760 --> 1:09:49.719
<v Speaker 3>a little bit. You know, you asked me earlier about

1:09:49.720 --> 1:09:51.960
<v Speaker 3>some of the things in my collection. One of the

1:09:52.000 --> 1:09:56.120
<v Speaker 3>things in my collection is a quiver, a back quiver. No,

1:09:56.200 --> 1:09:58.679
<v Speaker 3>it's a belt quiver of Saxon Pope's. It was came

1:09:58.720 --> 1:10:02.120
<v Speaker 3>from the pope's family direct, and it's made of white

1:10:02.120 --> 1:10:05.920
<v Speaker 3>tail deer hide. Pope wouldn't have gone and bought a

1:10:05.920 --> 1:10:08.720
<v Speaker 3>white tail deer hide and made a quiver from it.

1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:15.040
<v Speaker 3>Pope killed that deer. Probably Pope killed that deer. Could

1:10:15.080 --> 1:10:17.479
<v Speaker 3>have been Issue, but it probably Pope killed that deer

1:10:17.840 --> 1:10:19.840
<v Speaker 3>and made that high or made that quiver out of

1:10:19.840 --> 1:10:22.639
<v Speaker 3>the hide from the deer he killed, you know, because

1:10:22.680 --> 1:10:26.080
<v Speaker 3>Issue was there to teach him how to do that.

1:10:26.400 --> 1:10:28.640
<v Speaker 3>And he didn't kill that many white tail deer, you know,

1:10:28.760 --> 1:10:30.479
<v Speaker 3>so it had to be one of the few white

1:10:30.479 --> 1:10:32.559
<v Speaker 3>tail deer he killed in this time period. He died

1:10:32.560 --> 1:10:36.000
<v Speaker 3>in nineteen twenty six, and that story of him going

1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.479
<v Speaker 3>up into the mountains with Issue was nineteen fourteen, so

1:10:38.520 --> 1:10:40.519
<v Speaker 3>a very short period of time there, and you know

1:10:40.560 --> 1:10:42.639
<v Speaker 3>he killed I don't know, I don't remember now exactly

1:10:42.680 --> 1:10:45.840
<v Speaker 3>a half a dozen deer during that time one of

1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:49.400
<v Speaker 3>those deer. Is that quiver? It is it has to be.

1:10:49.720 --> 1:10:51.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's interesting.

1:10:51.720 --> 1:10:54.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean you know that you can touch the history,

1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:56.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, when you hold that in your hands, like

1:10:57.000 --> 1:11:00.040
<v Speaker 3>holding that issue point or holding that quiver or the

1:11:00.120 --> 1:11:03.519
<v Speaker 3>bow that Pope killed the lions with over in in Africa.

1:11:04.120 --> 1:11:05.880
<v Speaker 3>When you hold that in your hand, you know you're

1:11:05.920 --> 1:11:08.719
<v Speaker 3>holding the history of that bow. But you're also holding

1:11:10.439 --> 1:11:13.200
<v Speaker 3>the history of that man, the man that made that bow,

1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:16.400
<v Speaker 3>the man that used that bow. And that, to me,

1:11:16.600 --> 1:11:20.320
<v Speaker 3>is what collecting is all about. It's not my collection

1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:25.000
<v Speaker 3>isn't worth a nickel. You couldn't buy my collection. People

1:11:25.080 --> 1:11:31.240
<v Speaker 3>have tried. It's not money. It's history, it's people, it's stories,

1:11:31.600 --> 1:11:33.000
<v Speaker 3>and that's what makes it valuable.

1:11:36.560 --> 1:11:39.880
<v Speaker 1>So interesting, what were the things that you said you

1:11:39.920 --> 1:11:41.760
<v Speaker 1>wanted to You said there were a few things you

1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:43.080
<v Speaker 1>wanted to clear up.

1:11:44.040 --> 1:11:47.520
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, yeah, I think going back and you

1:11:47.680 --> 1:11:49.599
<v Speaker 3>set the plate for us here when you talked about

1:11:49.720 --> 1:11:53.000
<v Speaker 3>earlier in this taping, you talked about the character of

1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:55.200
<v Speaker 3>the man. And that's one of the things I didn't

1:11:55.240 --> 1:11:57.360
<v Speaker 3>think I did a good enough job with when in

1:11:57.400 --> 1:12:00.559
<v Speaker 3>the two podcasts earlier we talked a lot about the events,

1:12:00.600 --> 1:12:02.240
<v Speaker 3>and we talked a lot about the stories, but we

1:12:02.320 --> 1:12:05.160
<v Speaker 3>didn't talk enough about the character of the man. So

1:12:05.200 --> 1:12:07.120
<v Speaker 3>we've talked a little bit about that today, and I

1:12:07.200 --> 1:12:09.160
<v Speaker 3>think that's one of the main things I wanted to cover.

1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:16.680
<v Speaker 3>But you know what kind of soul it takes to

1:12:16.840 --> 1:12:20.280
<v Speaker 3>go through what he went through and come out of

1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:24.960
<v Speaker 3>it an optimist and you know, walk into a room

1:12:25.040 --> 1:12:29.080
<v Speaker 3>everybody happy. You know, when he left that trip in

1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:31.559
<v Speaker 3>nineteen fourteen, when they finished the trip and they come

1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:34.639
<v Speaker 3>back to the train station and they're going now back

1:12:34.680 --> 1:12:38.360
<v Speaker 3>to Oroville, there's a crowd at the train station waiting

1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:41.760
<v Speaker 3>to see is she leave? They're the hometown He's the

1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:42.519
<v Speaker 3>hometown hero.

1:12:42.720 --> 1:12:46.200
<v Speaker 4>Right, How ironic is that?

1:12:48.080 --> 1:12:50.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, just years before you're trying to wipe out the

1:12:51.000 --> 1:12:54.559
<v Speaker 3>whole culture and now he's the hometown hero. Well, there's

1:12:54.600 --> 1:12:56.719
<v Speaker 3>a crowd of people at the train station to see

1:12:56.720 --> 1:12:58.840
<v Speaker 3>is she leave? And that surprises is she? And it

1:12:58.920 --> 1:13:01.920
<v Speaker 3>kind of must make him good. So he's on the

1:13:01.960 --> 1:13:05.000
<v Speaker 3>train and he lowers the window and he sticks his

1:13:05.000 --> 1:13:13.920
<v Speaker 3>head out the train window and he said, ladies and gentlemen, goodbye. Really,

1:13:15.000 --> 1:13:17.600
<v Speaker 3>that's just I mean, that's the kind of man he was.

1:13:17.880 --> 1:13:22.080
<v Speaker 3>You know that's a good gentleman. Good bye my fans.

1:13:22.760 --> 1:13:27.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah wow, But you know, and how he came from.

1:13:28.000 --> 1:13:33.120
<v Speaker 3>To really emphasize that point, in eighteen ninety four, while

1:13:33.160 --> 1:13:36.599
<v Speaker 3>he was still in concealment, there was one of the

1:13:36.720 --> 1:13:39.800
<v Speaker 3>ranchers who had been his cabin had been raided west

1:13:39.800 --> 1:13:42.479
<v Speaker 3>certainly by the issue or by the Ahi over the years.

1:13:43.160 --> 1:13:46.920
<v Speaker 3>Had gotten tired of being raided, things being stolen from

1:13:46.920 --> 1:13:50.479
<v Speaker 3>his cabin, So I'll get those rascals. So he put

1:13:50.520 --> 1:13:52.559
<v Speaker 3>a sack of flower out on the table. And he

1:13:52.640 --> 1:13:56.479
<v Speaker 3>wasn't there. He used the cabin only temporarily or part time.

1:13:57.200 --> 1:13:59.280
<v Speaker 3>He puts a sack of flower on the table and

1:13:59.320 --> 1:14:05.000
<v Speaker 3>he poisons the sack of flower with rat poison, and

1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:07.800
<v Speaker 3>he puts a sign on the sack of flower that

1:14:07.840 --> 1:14:12.120
<v Speaker 3>says poison. His logic was, if white man comes in,

1:14:12.160 --> 1:14:14.799
<v Speaker 3>white man can read, and he won't take the flower

1:14:14.840 --> 1:14:17.680
<v Speaker 3>because he knows it's poison. But if those rascal yeah

1:14:17.720 --> 1:14:19.479
<v Speaker 3>he come in here, they won't be able to read.

1:14:19.520 --> 1:14:23.639
<v Speaker 3>They'll take the flower and it'll kill them. So that's

1:14:23.680 --> 1:14:28.240
<v Speaker 3>the kind of life that he lived for forty years

1:14:28.280 --> 1:14:31.120
<v Speaker 3>in concealment, people trying to kill him, not to shoot

1:14:31.200 --> 1:14:36.880
<v Speaker 3>him but poison, you know, vermin rat poison. Wow, and

1:14:36.920 --> 1:14:41.200
<v Speaker 3>he comes out of that everybody happy. How do you

1:14:41.280 --> 1:14:42.080
<v Speaker 3>do that? You know?

1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:47.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's just it's such the story that shows

1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:51.639
<v Speaker 2>the humanity of all people. Yeah, you know, just all

1:14:51.680 --> 1:14:54.120
<v Speaker 2>the differences that we have and that we see that

1:14:54.200 --> 1:14:56.679
<v Speaker 2>are external between men.

1:14:57.120 --> 1:14:59.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean from different cultures, different times.

1:14:59.200 --> 1:15:01.479
<v Speaker 2>The way we do things is the way we think

1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:05.320
<v Speaker 2>about God, the way we think about our families. Man,

1:15:06.360 --> 1:15:08.200
<v Speaker 2>there's really not that much difference.

1:15:07.800 --> 1:15:10.240
<v Speaker 1>In all of us, you know, they shouldn't be.

1:15:10.280 --> 1:15:15.879
<v Speaker 2>And the fact that the fact that this was notable

1:15:15.920 --> 1:15:22.080
<v Speaker 2>to me, how quickly is she understood in a functional

1:15:22.120 --> 1:15:25.519
<v Speaker 2>way the modern world with a matter of days. It

1:15:25.680 --> 1:15:28.640
<v Speaker 2>just showed like there's no gap in his intelligence. You

1:15:28.680 --> 1:15:30.599
<v Speaker 2>could have taught she had a flying airplane.

1:15:30.720 --> 1:15:31.679
<v Speaker 4>Yep, he could.

1:15:31.760 --> 1:15:33.680
<v Speaker 2>He could have been a pilot in six months and

1:15:33.760 --> 1:15:37.120
<v Speaker 2>flown a plane if he'd have been live. It was

1:15:37.160 --> 1:15:42.200
<v Speaker 2>not an intelligence issue, which I think sometimes there's this

1:15:43.040 --> 1:15:46.000
<v Speaker 2>gap in our ability to think about these these primitive

1:15:46.080 --> 1:15:49.520
<v Speaker 2>cultures as well. They must have been you know, not intelligent.

1:15:49.640 --> 1:15:52.120
<v Speaker 2>Not so, I mean there were he is she could

1:15:52.120 --> 1:15:55.519
<v Speaker 2>have had a i Q off the charts. I'm not

1:15:55.520 --> 1:15:57.400
<v Speaker 2>saying he did, but he could have, and there were

1:15:57.439 --> 1:16:01.479
<v Speaker 2>people that did that were just brilliant and you know,

1:16:02.560 --> 1:16:03.800
<v Speaker 2>too interesting for.

1:16:04.120 --> 1:16:06.040
<v Speaker 3>His family and his you know, other tribe members to

1:16:06.160 --> 1:16:09.559
<v Speaker 3>have lived forty years up there in concealment, and for

1:16:09.680 --> 1:16:12.559
<v Speaker 3>many of those years, people believed they were extinct because

1:16:12.560 --> 1:16:14.920
<v Speaker 3>they were so good at covering their trail, and they

1:16:14.960 --> 1:16:17.840
<v Speaker 3>walked from rock to rock, careful not to even make

1:16:17.880 --> 1:16:22.439
<v Speaker 3>a footprint anywhere, not bend a branch, not break a branch,

1:16:23.240 --> 1:16:26.880
<v Speaker 3>not leave any trace behind. I mean that's a sign

1:16:26.920 --> 1:16:29.200
<v Speaker 3>of intelligence there, you know, in its own way. How

1:16:29.200 --> 1:16:33.439
<v Speaker 3>could you be able to you know, think strategically like

1:16:33.560 --> 1:16:35.280
<v Speaker 3>that for so many years.

1:16:36.000 --> 1:16:40.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Hey, I want to do something, and I want

1:16:40.080 --> 1:16:42.240
<v Speaker 2>to do it while Jean's here, And it's going to

1:16:42.280 --> 1:16:43.880
<v Speaker 2>surprise y all because y'all didn't know I was going

1:16:43.920 --> 1:16:47.439
<v Speaker 2>to do this. Okay, we have we have a thing, Jane,

1:16:47.720 --> 1:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>that's called the Bear Grease Hall of Fame, where we

1:16:51.360 --> 1:16:53.160
<v Speaker 2>we we.

1:16:52.600 --> 1:16:54.400
<v Speaker 1>We take this actually quite serious.

1:16:54.439 --> 1:16:56.559
<v Speaker 2>It started a little bit as a kind of a

1:16:56.600 --> 1:16:58.880
<v Speaker 2>funny thing, right, But these are all people that we've

1:16:58.920 --> 1:17:01.559
<v Speaker 2>done stories on, not all of them. I mean, we've

1:17:01.600 --> 1:17:09.920
<v Speaker 2>done hundreds of stories. But there's like twelve. Let's see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven.

1:17:10.000 --> 1:17:12.360
<v Speaker 2>There are eleven people in the Hall of Fame. Some

1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:17.160
<v Speaker 2>of our Hall of famers will be Daniel Boone, George mcjonkin,

1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:21.120
<v Speaker 2>Roy Clark. Now Roy Clark is a plot man. This

1:17:21.240 --> 1:17:24.559
<v Speaker 2>is not the singer Roy Clark. Yeah, the compass there,

1:17:24.880 --> 1:17:29.479
<v Speaker 2>Davy Crockett, Wholt Collier. Some of these other guys are

1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:33.960
<v Speaker 2>living guys. But we typically before we do a Hall

1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:38.439
<v Speaker 2>of Fame induction for a person, we usually take a

1:17:38.439 --> 1:17:41.439
<v Speaker 2>long time to think about it and talk about it.

1:17:41.920 --> 1:17:43.360
<v Speaker 1>Yep, y'all know what I'm about to do.

1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:43.880
<v Speaker 4>I do.

1:17:44.080 --> 1:17:44.800
<v Speaker 3>I feel it coming.

1:17:44.800 --> 1:17:45.720
<v Speaker 1>I want to. I want to.

1:17:46.320 --> 1:17:51.280
<v Speaker 2>I want to make a motion to nominate. Is she

1:17:51.479 --> 1:17:53.320
<v Speaker 2>to be in the Bear Grease Hall of Fame?

1:17:53.600 --> 1:17:54.200
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely?

1:17:54.240 --> 1:17:55.360
<v Speaker 4>I will second that age.

1:17:55.360 --> 1:17:57.840
<v Speaker 1>Can we can we get a raise of hands in

1:17:57.960 --> 1:17:59.400
<v Speaker 1>favor of the issue being in the.

1:17:59.320 --> 1:18:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Hall of famesoutely okay, without a doubt. Never before have

1:18:03.040 --> 1:18:06.719
<v Speaker 2>we so quickly put someone. But when this these stories

1:18:06.720 --> 1:18:10.040
<v Speaker 2>started happening, I was like, she's in the Hall of Fame. Yeah,

1:18:10.920 --> 1:18:13.880
<v Speaker 2>so we'll get a We'll get a little plaque made, yep,

1:18:15.240 --> 1:18:19.679
<v Speaker 2>and he'll be the thirteenth inductee on to the Bargers

1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Hall of Fame.

1:18:20.120 --> 1:18:20.559
<v Speaker 3>Excellent.

1:18:21.000 --> 1:18:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and and the guys that we put in.

1:18:22.880 --> 1:18:31.160
<v Speaker 2>There, there's some level of character that's in those in

1:18:31.240 --> 1:18:34.639
<v Speaker 2>the every one of these people that stands out to us.

1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:37.200
<v Speaker 4>It's not just accomplishment.

1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Not yeah, it's not it's not just accomplishment base, but

1:18:40.760 --> 1:18:45.040
<v Speaker 2>there's a there's a component of character and that that's

1:18:45.240 --> 1:18:48.400
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting. That's what you emphasized, and that to me,

1:18:48.520 --> 1:18:52.559
<v Speaker 2>that's what stands out about issue. Maybe it's the most

1:18:53.880 --> 1:18:55.880
<v Speaker 2>it's the part of it that you wouldn't think would

1:18:55.920 --> 1:18:57.559
<v Speaker 2>be most interesting, but probably is.

1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:01.240
<v Speaker 3>Is how he he Yeah, he could have been just

1:19:01.280 --> 1:19:04.360
<v Speaker 3>another story. I think if he hadn't been the person

1:19:04.400 --> 1:19:07.160
<v Speaker 3>he was, you know, in the character of the man

1:19:09.080 --> 1:19:11.680
<v Speaker 3>I think is what separates him. Yeah, it makes him

1:19:11.680 --> 1:19:14.200
<v Speaker 3>such a unique part of that story.

1:19:14.360 --> 1:19:15.519
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1:19:15.640 --> 1:19:19.799
<v Speaker 2>Way before we uh, before we close down and we're

1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:22.800
<v Speaker 2>we're in no hurry, I want to I want to

1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:26.320
<v Speaker 2>talk to you about Fred Behar. All right, another one

1:19:26.760 --> 1:19:29.360
<v Speaker 2>if you if you don't know Fred barre is, I

1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:31.599
<v Speaker 2>would imagine most people who listen to this podcast would,

1:19:31.640 --> 1:19:35.160
<v Speaker 2>But Fred Bear is considered the father of.

1:19:35.160 --> 1:19:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Modern bow hunting.

1:19:36.640 --> 1:19:40.519
<v Speaker 2>And uh, but to meet something, meet somebody that actually

1:19:40.600 --> 1:19:44.040
<v Speaker 2>knew Fred Behar is pretty unique. But tell me how

1:19:44.080 --> 1:19:46.320
<v Speaker 2>you knew Fred and just kind of your impressions of him.

1:19:46.360 --> 1:19:48.920
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, I've been a bull hunter all my life.

1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:51.160
<v Speaker 3>You know, again I told you earlier. My first big

1:19:51.200 --> 1:19:53.719
<v Speaker 3>game animals were grasshoppers when I was six years old

1:19:53.720 --> 1:19:57.400
<v Speaker 3>out in the cow pastor. So always been infatuated with

1:19:57.400 --> 1:20:02.519
<v Speaker 3>a bow and arrow growing up, turning on the TV

1:20:02.600 --> 1:20:05.759
<v Speaker 3>and watching the American sportsman Fred Bair Glenn Saint Charles

1:20:06.240 --> 1:20:11.000
<v Speaker 3>hunting British Columbia for grizzly bears the highlight of my life,

1:20:11.040 --> 1:20:14.200
<v Speaker 3>you know, as a young person. And then I started

1:20:14.320 --> 1:20:17.919
<v Speaker 3>a retail business and archery retail business back in Columbus, Indiana,

1:20:19.720 --> 1:20:24.400
<v Speaker 3>late seventies, and I was a bear dealer. So as

1:20:24.400 --> 1:20:27.040
<v Speaker 3>a bear dealer, right, you get to go to shows.

1:20:27.240 --> 1:20:28.680
<v Speaker 3>You get to go, you know, at that time, the

1:20:28.680 --> 1:20:31.719
<v Speaker 3>Shot Show. There wasn't an archery trade show at that time,

1:20:32.960 --> 1:20:35.000
<v Speaker 3>so going to the Shot Show and I got to

1:20:35.080 --> 1:20:38.880
<v Speaker 3>be introduced to Fred as a dealer. And Fred was

1:20:38.920 --> 1:20:41.880
<v Speaker 3>such a humble man. You know, if you're a dealer,

1:20:41.880 --> 1:20:44.000
<v Speaker 3>you're at the top of the pyramid in Fred's mind,

1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:46.240
<v Speaker 3>because you know, you're the one out there, You're the

1:20:46.240 --> 1:20:48.960
<v Speaker 3>foot soldier out there bringing our sport to the people.

1:20:50.040 --> 1:20:53.439
<v Speaker 3>You're the top of the pyramid. And that's the way

1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:56.000
<v Speaker 3>Fred treated you. So as a dealer, I had to

1:20:56.000 --> 1:20:59.400
<v Speaker 3>meet him several times, going to shows several times, and

1:20:59.479 --> 1:21:01.320
<v Speaker 3>then you know, after a while, you kind of get

1:21:01.360 --> 1:21:04.439
<v Speaker 3>to know each other and it becomes more of a

1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:09.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, we weren't hunting buddies or anything like that,

1:21:09.840 --> 1:21:12.000
<v Speaker 3>but you know we get to spend time and talk

1:21:12.080 --> 1:21:17.600
<v Speaker 3>and build a friendship. But such a humble man, you know,

1:21:17.800 --> 1:21:19.840
<v Speaker 3>and every story you hear about Fred, you would think

1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:22.599
<v Speaker 3>maybe somebody of that stature, with the you know, all

1:21:22.640 --> 1:21:26.080
<v Speaker 3>those accomplishments that Fred had, would have an ego. If

1:21:26.080 --> 1:21:29.400
<v Speaker 3>Fred had nothing close to an ego. And that's just

1:21:29.960 --> 1:21:31.720
<v Speaker 3>he would walk up to you, shake your hand, and

1:21:31.760 --> 1:21:35.120
<v Speaker 3>he wanted to know about you. You know, what's your story,

1:21:35.240 --> 1:21:39.000
<v Speaker 3>how are you doing? And that's that was Fred Bear.

1:21:40.000 --> 1:21:42.800
<v Speaker 3>And I think without Fred, there were a lot of

1:21:42.840 --> 1:21:45.439
<v Speaker 3>people making archery equipment back in the thirties. You know,

1:21:45.479 --> 1:21:49.360
<v Speaker 3>he started go back to issue is Issue brought Pope

1:21:49.400 --> 1:21:53.479
<v Speaker 3>into archery. Pope brought Compton, Will Compton and our young

1:21:53.560 --> 1:21:57.000
<v Speaker 3>and archery. Our young brought Fred Behar into archery. Fred

1:21:57.000 --> 1:22:00.600
<v Speaker 3>Bear brought me into archery. So I look at it

1:22:00.640 --> 1:22:03.600
<v Speaker 3>like a family tree, you know. Fred Fred was you know,

1:22:03.680 --> 1:22:07.679
<v Speaker 3>uncle Fred to a lot of us, and I think

1:22:07.720 --> 1:22:11.200
<v Speaker 3>his story is worthy of a deep dive.

1:22:11.520 --> 1:22:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've said it before, Fred Behar. We've got to

1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:18.120
<v Speaker 1>do a bear grease at some point on Fred Bear.

1:22:18.320 --> 1:22:20.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean he deserves that.

1:22:20.240 --> 1:22:20.880
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely.

1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Look, you said something, and I want to talk about this.

1:22:25.400 --> 1:22:29.599
<v Speaker 2>You said that Fred was the best marketer of archery,

1:22:30.160 --> 1:22:31.120
<v Speaker 2>maybe of all time.

1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:31.599
<v Speaker 3>Yep.

1:22:31.840 --> 1:22:35.200
<v Speaker 2>And that could be taken as, oh, Fred was just

1:22:35.240 --> 1:22:40.200
<v Speaker 2>a good businessman and charismatic, but you kind of looked

1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:44.640
<v Speaker 2>at it and I would too, as that marketing ability

1:22:44.920 --> 1:22:48.639
<v Speaker 2>was actually really powerful, not just for the sport of archery,

1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:54.960
<v Speaker 2>but for getting people on the bandwagon of modern hunting

1:22:55.000 --> 1:22:59.439
<v Speaker 2>and conservation. So like, it took somebody that was really

1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:01.600
<v Speaker 2>good at mark and this is relevant today and this

1:23:01.680 --> 1:23:02.639
<v Speaker 2>is kind of where I'm going.

1:23:03.640 --> 1:23:06.720
<v Speaker 1>It took somebody like a Fred Bear, Like we're all

1:23:06.760 --> 1:23:11.960
<v Speaker 1>here today maybe maybe in large part because of a

1:23:12.000 --> 1:23:15.559
<v Speaker 1>Fred Bear that marketed this to the world.

1:23:15.880 --> 1:23:16.439
<v Speaker 5>Right, And.

1:23:18.320 --> 1:23:20.640
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just you said this, but it wasn't just

1:23:20.720 --> 1:23:22.759
<v Speaker 2>you said it on the podcast. It wasn't just about

1:23:22.760 --> 1:23:25.719
<v Speaker 2>making good archery equipment. He knew it had to be marketed.

1:23:26.000 --> 1:23:28.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, you go back, you know, he started Bear Products

1:23:28.479 --> 1:23:31.679
<v Speaker 3>Company in nineteen thirty three in Detroit, and at that time,

1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:34.760
<v Speaker 3>archery and bow hunting in particular was not a very

1:23:34.760 --> 1:23:36.479
<v Speaker 3>big sport. You know, there might have been a few

1:23:36.600 --> 1:23:39.000
<v Speaker 3>hundred people across the whole country that were hunting with

1:23:39.040 --> 1:23:42.719
<v Speaker 3>the bow and arrow. But he saw it his love

1:23:42.960 --> 1:23:45.400
<v Speaker 3>for the sport. He saw it as something that he

1:23:45.439 --> 1:23:47.640
<v Speaker 3>could bring to the masses and he could grow this.

1:23:47.840 --> 1:23:51.840
<v Speaker 3>So it wasn't necessarily just to grow Bear archery. It

1:23:51.880 --> 1:23:54.200
<v Speaker 3>was to grow the sport. And that's why all the

1:23:54.240 --> 1:23:56.360
<v Speaker 3>patents that Fred ever put He got a lot of

1:23:56.360 --> 1:23:59.320
<v Speaker 3>patents on archery equipment, he never enforced any of them.

1:24:00.160 --> 1:24:02.960
<v Speaker 3>Patented the boat quiver. Can you imagine how much royalties

1:24:02.960 --> 1:24:05.040
<v Speaker 3>he could have made off of enforcing the patent on

1:24:05.080 --> 1:24:08.120
<v Speaker 3>the bulk uiver. But it was more important for him

1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:11.400
<v Speaker 3>to see that be used to grow the sport than

1:24:11.439 --> 1:24:14.920
<v Speaker 3>it was to make a dollar. And again, I think

1:24:14.920 --> 1:24:17.439
<v Speaker 3>that goes back to character, you know, the character of

1:24:17.479 --> 1:24:20.920
<v Speaker 3>the man. He cared about building the sport that was

1:24:20.960 --> 1:24:24.479
<v Speaker 3>what was important to him, and that's bear archery will grow,

1:24:25.160 --> 1:24:27.599
<v Speaker 3>but only because we're building a sport for it.

1:24:27.760 --> 1:24:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay.

1:24:29.400 --> 1:24:32.280
<v Speaker 2>The reason that's relevant today is that there's a group

1:24:32.320 --> 1:24:36.160
<v Speaker 2>of people, it's a very small minority of people that

1:24:36.240 --> 1:24:41.640
<v Speaker 2>would say that modern hunting is over commercialized and is

1:24:41.680 --> 1:24:45.800
<v Speaker 2>being marketed just for the sake of companies making money.

1:24:45.840 --> 1:24:48.240
<v Speaker 2>Which there are plenty of companies that make money. Mediator

1:24:48.280 --> 1:24:53.559
<v Speaker 2>makes money, Bear archery makes money today, Matthew's archery. I mean,

1:24:53.720 --> 1:24:56.120
<v Speaker 2>like companies do make money, so what they're in business for.

1:24:57.080 --> 1:25:03.120
<v Speaker 2>But their criticism is that we're promoting the sport of

1:25:03.240 --> 1:25:08.200
<v Speaker 2>hunting for the sole purpose of making money. And there's

1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:11.080
<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch more people in hunting today because of

1:25:11.280 --> 1:25:15.680
<v Speaker 2>influencers and outdoor media than there would have been. And

1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:17.920
<v Speaker 2>I heard you say something before this, you said, oh,

1:25:17.960 --> 1:25:21.240
<v Speaker 2>there's always been those guys. I mean, basically, the opinion

1:25:21.320 --> 1:25:23.880
<v Speaker 2>of these folks is that we should hunt and not

1:25:23.960 --> 1:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>talk about it. And in short, what I would say

1:25:30.160 --> 1:25:32.760
<v Speaker 2>is that if we hunted and didn't talk about it,

1:25:33.160 --> 1:25:36.559
<v Speaker 2>a generation from now, this whole thing would be dead.

1:25:36.600 --> 1:25:37.679
<v Speaker 3>It'd be gone. Yep.

1:25:38.840 --> 1:25:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Is that do you believe that to be true.

1:25:40.160 --> 1:25:42.439
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely true. You know, I've been an active member of

1:25:42.439 --> 1:25:45.559
<v Speaker 3>Popen Young. I'm a senior member of Popen Young. And

1:25:45.720 --> 1:25:48.439
<v Speaker 3>Fred was a big part of Popen Young. And Fred

1:25:48.520 --> 1:25:51.880
<v Speaker 3>was Bear Archery. You know, he was in the business.

1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:55.880
<v Speaker 3>He was one of some people will say, you know

1:25:56.040 --> 1:26:00.800
<v Speaker 3>that the commercialization of our sport has ruined our sport. Well,

1:26:00.840 --> 1:26:02.640
<v Speaker 3>if that was true, Fred Bear would have been one

1:26:02.680 --> 1:26:05.160
<v Speaker 3>of the first guys commercializing our sport. He didn't ruin

1:26:05.200 --> 1:26:08.920
<v Speaker 3>our sport. He built our sport. So in are you

1:26:09.120 --> 1:26:13.519
<v Speaker 3>commercializing the sport for the sacrifice of the sport? Are

1:26:13.520 --> 1:26:16.680
<v Speaker 3>you commercializing to build the sport? Yeah, I'm going to

1:26:16.720 --> 1:26:19.679
<v Speaker 3>make a few dollars. Like I said, Fred made money

1:26:19.760 --> 1:26:22.280
<v Speaker 3>with Bear Archery Company, and that was his livelihood from

1:26:22.320 --> 1:26:25.679
<v Speaker 3>nineteen thirty three until he passed away in nineteen eighty eight.

1:26:26.120 --> 1:26:29.040
<v Speaker 3>But he didn't do it at the sacrifice of archery.

1:26:29.080 --> 1:26:33.080
<v Speaker 3>He did it at the benefit of archery. And another

1:26:33.160 --> 1:26:34.840
<v Speaker 3>quote I want to give here, and we talked about

1:26:34.880 --> 1:26:37.360
<v Speaker 3>this earlier too. One of the people that crosspaths with

1:26:37.479 --> 1:26:40.120
<v Speaker 3>in my life was the guy that started Muzzy Archery Company.

1:26:40.840 --> 1:26:43.439
<v Speaker 3>John and John and I got to be friends over

1:26:43.479 --> 1:26:46.000
<v Speaker 3>the years and John said something to me one day

1:26:46.000 --> 1:26:48.400
<v Speaker 3>at a show, and he said, there's you know, there's

1:26:48.439 --> 1:26:50.519
<v Speaker 3>some people who want to be something in archery, and

1:26:51.000 --> 1:26:53.599
<v Speaker 3>there's other people who want to do something for archery.

1:26:54.280 --> 1:26:55.960
<v Speaker 3>And I thought, I sat down and I thought, Wow,

1:26:56.360 --> 1:26:59.000
<v Speaker 3>that's really deep, you know, and I think that's where

1:26:59.000 --> 1:27:01.280
<v Speaker 3>we're at. Are you doing what you're doing because you

1:27:01.320 --> 1:27:04.280
<v Speaker 3>want to do something for archery, right? Are you doing

1:27:04.360 --> 1:27:07.280
<v Speaker 3>it because you want to be somebody in archery? Are

1:27:07.280 --> 1:27:09.200
<v Speaker 3>you're trying to be another thread bear? There'll never be

1:27:09.240 --> 1:27:11.320
<v Speaker 3>another thread bear. Quit trying. It's not going to happen.

1:27:11.360 --> 1:27:14.320
<v Speaker 3>You're just making a fool of yourself. But if you're

1:27:14.360 --> 1:27:18.360
<v Speaker 3>trying to do something for archery, hats off to you.

1:27:18.479 --> 1:27:19.519
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1:27:19.560 --> 1:27:23.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's a powerful distinction because we have

1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:25.880
<v Speaker 2>something today that we've never had before, which is social

1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:32.000
<v Speaker 2>media influencers, which is a whole different category of marketing

1:27:32.000 --> 1:27:34.519
<v Speaker 2>that the world's never seen before. And so you could

1:27:34.560 --> 1:27:37.040
<v Speaker 2>make the argument that there's a lot of people in

1:27:37.080 --> 1:27:38.800
<v Speaker 2>the hunting, not just bow hunting, but there are a

1:27:38.840 --> 1:27:43.240
<v Speaker 2>lot of people in hunting that are trying to make

1:27:43.280 --> 1:27:46.280
<v Speaker 2>a name for themselves, and you could, you.

1:27:46.240 --> 1:27:48.200
<v Speaker 3>Know, you can smell those people right away.

1:27:48.360 --> 1:27:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think you're right, and I think there's people

1:27:51.000 --> 1:27:55.760
<v Speaker 2>that would probably get some of them wrong too, you know,

1:27:56.160 --> 1:28:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, because I would, It's possible there would be.

1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a lot of criticism of influencers.

1:28:06.960 --> 1:28:09.840
<v Speaker 2>But my point about the hunting stuff is is that

1:28:09.920 --> 1:28:14.559
<v Speaker 2>our culture, I mean, in bicycling and ATV stuff, and

1:28:14.600 --> 1:28:19.000
<v Speaker 2>the equine world and the mule world, in sewing and knitting,

1:28:19.920 --> 1:28:25.439
<v Speaker 2>there are influencers and homemaking and cooking. I mean, our

1:28:25.560 --> 1:28:30.920
<v Speaker 2>culture has now social media influencers. Why wouldn't hunting have

1:28:31.280 --> 1:28:35.479
<v Speaker 2>social media influencers as well? But the motivation of them

1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:38.320
<v Speaker 2>is everything, and they're bad apples there are. But I

1:28:38.439 --> 1:28:42.240
<v Speaker 2>just was thinking about I'm connecting all this kind of Yeah,

1:28:42.240 --> 1:28:44.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of including you in a conversation you maybe

1:28:44.280 --> 1:28:45.080
<v Speaker 2>hadn't been in before.

1:28:45.120 --> 1:28:48.320
<v Speaker 1>But like those guys would criticize Fred Behar.

1:28:48.520 --> 1:28:51.439
<v Speaker 3>If you think commercialization of our sport is bad, then

1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:54.599
<v Speaker 3>you criticizing people like Fred Bhar and Ben Pearson, right,

1:28:54.680 --> 1:28:57.759
<v Speaker 3>and you're wrong. Yeah, you know they commercialized our sport

1:28:57.840 --> 1:29:00.439
<v Speaker 3>for the sake of our sport right now, the sake

1:29:00.479 --> 1:29:03.840
<v Speaker 3>of their personal image or to be somebody important, right,

1:29:03.920 --> 1:29:07.439
<v Speaker 3>They didn't cross their mind. Yeah yeah, it was just

1:29:07.520 --> 1:29:09.559
<v Speaker 3>a byproduct of them building our sport.

1:29:09.960 --> 1:29:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, that's that's really interesting. Any closing thoughts, Joshua Bear.

1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:19.920
<v Speaker 4>I don't think so. Man, that's been great. I really

1:29:20.000 --> 1:29:22.479
<v Speaker 4>enjoyed this series, and I enjoyed getting to spend time

1:29:22.520 --> 1:29:25.760
<v Speaker 4>with Jene man as a wealth of knowledge in that

1:29:25.800 --> 1:29:26.439
<v Speaker 4>guy right there.

1:29:26.640 --> 1:29:27.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1:29:27.240 --> 1:29:29.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't thank you enough for coming to Arkansas

1:29:29.439 --> 1:29:32.599
<v Speaker 2>and being willing to share your story. Anything we could

1:29:32.640 --> 1:29:35.519
<v Speaker 2>ever do for you that would be beneficial, I mean,

1:29:35.720 --> 1:29:36.200
<v Speaker 2>we'd do it.

1:29:36.280 --> 1:29:38.680
<v Speaker 1>I just thank you for I just.

1:29:38.240 --> 1:29:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Keep doing what you're doing. You know, I'm bringing the

1:29:40.200 --> 1:29:43.040
<v Speaker 3>stories and bringing you know, sharing the history of our

1:29:43.080 --> 1:29:45.960
<v Speaker 3>sport and keeping the spirit alive with those people that

1:29:46.040 --> 1:29:48.559
<v Speaker 3>came before us. I think that's that's what motivates me.

1:29:49.040 --> 1:29:50.880
<v Speaker 3>So thank you for helping with that.

1:29:51.439 --> 1:29:52.719
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1:29:52.760 --> 1:29:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, all right, keep the wild places wild, because that's

1:29:56.240 --> 1:29:57.000
<v Speaker 2>where the Bears live.