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Speaker 1: My name is Clay Neukleman.

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Speaker 2: This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called

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Speaker 2: The Bear Grease Render where we render down, dive deeper,

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Speaker 2: and look behind the scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast,

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Speaker 2: presented by f h F Gear, American Maid, purpose built

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Speaker 2: hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged

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Speaker 2: as the place as we explore.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about today.

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Speaker 2: We have a very very distinguished guest and I'll say

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Speaker 2: that has been on the last two episodes of Bear Grease,

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Speaker 2: Geene Hopkins.

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Speaker 1: It's such a pleasure. Thank you for coming to Arkansas.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's my pleasure. I appreciate you guys inviting me.

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Speaker 3: This is exciting for me.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Well, So to fill you in if you haven't been

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Speaker 2: paying attention, we did an original episode on Ishi, which

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Speaker 2: that's what we're going to talk about extensively in this episode.

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Speaker 2: We're we're gonna cover some kind of housekeeping stuff up front,

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Speaker 2: but just to let you know where we're going with this,

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Speaker 2: we did an episode two what we've now done two episodes.

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Speaker 2: We did episode one on Ishi, which was basically his

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Speaker 2: history and life before coming into Oreville, California in nineteen eleven.

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Speaker 2: His history with what we know of the Yahee and

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Speaker 2: this fascinating story. Going to get into it. Then we

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Speaker 2: interrupted the series, which we've never done before forgive us.

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Speaker 2: We put out an episode where I interviewed Ted Copple,

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Speaker 2: which was just an interesting episode, and we dropped it,

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Speaker 2: and then now come back to do the final episode

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Speaker 2: with Gene that came out on the Bear Grease feed

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Speaker 2: Is She two basically, So we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 4: All that awesome episode.

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Speaker 1: By the way, yes, agreed, no doubt.

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Speaker 2: When I first started Bear Grease five years ago, Gene,

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Speaker 2: I was telling him this earlier. I had to write

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Speaker 2: out twenty six potential topics for this podcast because we

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Speaker 2: do a Bear Grease proper or documentary style episode every

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Speaker 2: two weeks, and media was like, okay, well, what are

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Speaker 2: you going to talk about? Make a year's schedule, and

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Speaker 2: Ishi was on that original list, but it's taken me

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Speaker 2: five years to get to.

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Speaker 3: It, so well, I hope the wait was worth it.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, I think it's perfect timing and that yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're going to get into all of it. Before we do,

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Speaker 2: there's three things I want to talk about. The Mediater

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Speaker 2: Live tour that's coming up, the Christmas Tickets Live Tour.

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Speaker 1: You got your I got a whole table, man, did you?

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Speaker 1: I did excellent?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I haven't decided who the other pair of

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Speaker 4: people want to invite.

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Speaker 2: Oh, well you might. I could bring them. You could

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Speaker 2: bring in a bear Grease listener. The Faydeville show is sold.

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Speaker 4: Out exactly except for the two tickets I've got.

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Speaker 1: There's six six shows.

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Speaker 2: There's a show in Birmingham, Nashville, Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, Fadeville, Arkansas, Dallas, Texas,

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Speaker 2: and Austin, Texas. Sixth cities, six nights in December, the

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Speaker 2: seventeenth through the twenty second. I believe, And uh, I'm

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Speaker 2: so proud of Faydeville. Arkansas is the smallest city on

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Speaker 2: the tour, right, I mean all those other all those

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Speaker 2: other cities are huge, big metropolises. And meat Eater came

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Speaker 2: to us three and said, do you think it would

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Speaker 2: work in Faydeville?

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Speaker 1: And what did that? What do we say?

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Speaker 2: We said, buddy, speaking to meat Eater as if it

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Speaker 2: were a man, Buddy, you better believe that better people

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Speaker 2: in Arkansas are going to show up for Meet Eater

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Speaker 2: Live sold.

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Speaker 4: Better Razorback Stadium because we're gonna fill it up. Sold

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Speaker 4: out in three days, sold out three days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: Before the they even actually went on regular sale.

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Speaker 4: It was like pre like the pre release.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so all the other shows, the other shows

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Speaker 2: are filling up quick. But meeting her live to I

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Speaker 2: had a lot of people ask me what the live

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Speaker 2: tour is. It's like, a it's like a two hour

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Speaker 2: variety show.

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Speaker 4: That's a great description.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it'll be Steve Ranella, Brent Reeves, Giannis

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Speaker 2: would tell us Randall Williams and myself. Every every city

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Speaker 2: will have a couple of local guests who will be there,

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Speaker 2: like surprise guests that we're not going to tell you

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Speaker 2: who they are, but people that when you see them

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Speaker 2: you'll be like, whoa, They're gonna be there, and like

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Speaker 2: there's gonna be music, trivia, storytelling, crowd participation, U A

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Speaker 2: lot going on. And so it's it's really fun. I

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Speaker 2: mean even if you had non hunting family, I would

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Speaker 2: be very shocked if you would bring them to this

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Speaker 2: and they wouldn't be entertained.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I would agree.

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Speaker 1: I mean just a lot of fun. So so excited,

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Speaker 1: but so you better get your tickets for the rest

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Speaker 1: of the shows. If you're going to go because they're

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Speaker 1: probably going to sell out, and if.

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Speaker 3: You're trying to get into the fatal show.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, you could Josh let you at his table.

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Speaker 5: You should.

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Speaker 2: What if we left one spot for that table and

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Speaker 2: we could have people right in why they wanted to

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Speaker 2: be there.

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Speaker 1: It's not a bad idea, you know what. I want

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Speaker 1: to say this too.

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Speaker 2: I don't take it for granted that we can have

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Speaker 2: a live show and sell out like it's really it

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Speaker 2: means a lot to us that people are willing and

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Speaker 2: want to come and come and see us. So I

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Speaker 2: don't I don't take it for granted.

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Speaker 1: That that that people are you know, are willing to

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Thanks everything, and thanks for showing up in Arkansas.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that's number one. Number two.

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Speaker 2: Man, if you need a good deer call, this is

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Speaker 2: a blatant sales pitch.

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Speaker 1: Getting ready, just so happy, ready to be de Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This phelps acorn Grunner made burnt osage Orne.

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Speaker 4: I'm a little jealous of that one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is uh, we call.

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Speaker 2: It the acorn Grunner and it's an inhale exhale grunt bleep.

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Speaker 2: You can flip it and it's the opposite. Then it's

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Speaker 2: a blow for the bleat in heale for the grunt.

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Speaker 2: But I wanted Jason Phelps to make a call that

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Speaker 2: a single call with a bleat and a because man,

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Speaker 2: I use a bleat as much as I use a grunt.

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Speaker 2: And uh and and I've called in a lot of

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Speaker 2: deer with a dough bleat, including this.

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Speaker 1: This is the deer hunter's call. That's what I call

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Speaker 1: it the deer hunters call, because I kill.

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Speaker 2: A lot of dough deer by calling them in with

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Speaker 2: a dough bleat. I mean, you know, dough out there

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Speaker 2: at forty yards, She's not coming to your buck grunt.

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Speaker 2: But it's a deer that you want to take right. Man,

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Speaker 2: during the early season, especially a dough deer will respond

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Speaker 2: to a dough bleat pretty pretty good. What do you think, bear?

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Speaker 2: I agree all hype, all commercialization and hype, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think so. Pretty good call? I think so. And

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Speaker 1: I was just looking at this one.

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Speaker 6: These bodark trees have some pretty nice growth rings on

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Speaker 6: them too, so.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty good boat ark. Pretty good boat ark.

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Speaker 3: I could have made a good bow.

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Speaker 4: Uh yeah, yeah, Well they cut them up in the call.

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Speaker 7: Right there, he's got some thin rings, but up here

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Speaker 7: those are prime ring. Now, thin rings would be better, though, right,

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Speaker 7: tighter growth, hard years.

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Speaker 6: They're just a lot tougher to work with, really, And

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Speaker 6: if you, if you like, hit.

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Speaker 7: Them on a tree, standard rock or something, they violate

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Speaker 7: a lot easier violate.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a big word sounding about bowl wood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, because then it blows up the whole bow

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Speaker 1: if the rings are tight. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, what you're telling me, is there a metaphor?

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Speaker 2: You know, we find in life a lot of times

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Speaker 2: trees are used as metaphors for life.

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Speaker 1: Jesus did it.

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Speaker 2: He said the Kingdom of God is like a like

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Speaker 2: a mustard seed that grows on the biggest tree and

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Speaker 2: the birds. So you're telling me I would have thought

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Speaker 2: that the tight rings meant hard years, which meant growth

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Speaker 2: of character in tight rings.

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Speaker 3: Well, you were follow the bow. You're over here. He

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Speaker 3: knows what he's talking about.

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Speaker 7: I've made some bows with tight rings and they're great bows.

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Speaker 7: But if it's got a thick ring, it's just more security.

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Speaker 3: Okay, easier to stay within the ring while you're making

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Speaker 3: the bow.

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Speaker 1: Eh, yep, exactly. That's probably part of it. Yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Third thing and then we're gonna start talking about is

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Speaker 2: she and Gene, who's like the most interesting man in

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 4: I don't always talk about my grandkids.

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Speaker 2: Your grandkids, well, well we do too, So this is

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Speaker 2: like super serious. In Arkansas this week there was another

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Speaker 2: black bear fatality. If you're paying attention on the Nash,

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Speaker 2: it's been in New York Times.

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Speaker 1: BBC did the BBC report on them.

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Speaker 2: It's been in all the major headlines and all the

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Speaker 2: news outlets have covered it.

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Speaker 1: Media covered it.

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Speaker 2: But there was a second bear fatality in less than

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Speaker 2: thirty days in Arkansas. In recorded history, recorded history, what

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Speaker 2: I would call modern history, there's not been a black

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Speaker 2: bear fatality in Arkansas since eighteen There was some after that,

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Speaker 2: but usually they were induced inside of a hunting situation

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Speaker 2: with dog. I mean like Erskine was killed bears, the

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Speaker 2: dog dogs were baying a bear. Guy killed, you know,

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Speaker 2: eighteen forty three, you know a man September third, there

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Speaker 2: was a man just south of us, about an hour

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Speaker 2: near the Mulberry River, on a tractor grading his gravel

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Speaker 2: road on a on a I think was a new

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Speaker 2: hauland tractor and no connection between a little a little bear,

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Speaker 2: I mean eighty pound bear comes up. He films the

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Speaker 2: bear and he's like talking to the bear, and.

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Speaker 1: Next you know, this bear is kind of like.

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Speaker 2: Cat walking, like getting real close, and basically he stops

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Speaker 2: filming and the next thing, the bear jumps on the tractor,

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Speaker 2: pulls him off the tractor and basically gives injuries to

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Speaker 2: the guy that caused him to pass away several weeks

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Speaker 2: later after being I see you. So that was just wild,

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Speaker 2: and it felt like this lightning struck and it was this.

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Speaker 3: One off thing that's unusual.

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Speaker 1: It's so unusual.

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Speaker 2: And then last Thursday, a man was discovered at a

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Speaker 2: campsite in the ozark to a place called a very

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Speaker 2: popular place called Sam's Throne, which is in National Forest,

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Speaker 2: a place where rock climbers climb some big sheer face

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Speaker 2: bluffs and just a big National Forest campground. And a

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Speaker 2: man had from Missouri, sixty year old man. They released

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Speaker 2: his name.

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Speaker 1: Today, oh yeah, yesterday.

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Speaker 2: His name is Max Thomas, and that he had sent

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Speaker 2: a picture to his wife on Tuesday of a Baroness

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Speaker 2: camp and it had just been like, wow, this is interesting.

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Speaker 2: A bear in the camp, not threatened, just had this bear.

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Speaker 2: Basically he goes radio silent and on Thursday they called

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Speaker 2: the sheriff and say, hey, we do a welfare check.

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Speaker 2: My husband hasn't can't get him, haven't talked to him

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Speaker 2: since Tuesday. They go and basically there's signs of distress

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Speaker 2: in the camp and they follow. They basically find the

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Speaker 2: man one hundred and ninety four feet away appeared to

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Speaker 2: have been mauled by a black bear. And and they

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Speaker 2: put that two together by the pictures and then by

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Speaker 2: evidence there and in a unique circumstances I can't really

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Speaker 2: talk about fully. Baron Nuklem and I were that night

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Speaker 2: called to go to the scene.

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Speaker 4: This is like an hour from us, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so Bear and I went there that night and

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Speaker 2: and we helped round up guys that had some dogs

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Speaker 2: that would treat a bear, you know, and and they

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Speaker 2: free cast dogs. But this track was potential a couple

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Speaker 2: of days old. By now didn't get the bear game

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Speaker 2: and fish comes in game and fish authorize the use

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Speaker 2: of dogs. It's not legal run bear with dogs. It's

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Speaker 2: a game and Fish director along with the bear coordinator

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Speaker 2: and other people authorize the use. And Glenn Wheeler, the

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Speaker 2: Sheriff of Newton County.

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Speaker 1: He was on the scene.

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Speaker 2: Unique guy, a hunter, kind of had some a little

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Speaker 2: bit of background and besides his law enforcement but being

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Speaker 2: around bears and whatnot. Anyway, the game and Fish puts

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Speaker 2: up traps and bucket snare traps and big tube traps,

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Speaker 2: puts up cell cameras all over the place. They shut

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Speaker 2: down the campground and basically the best bet is to

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Speaker 2: wait for the bear to come back. But we all

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Speaker 2: suspected that the bear would not go in the trap

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Speaker 2: because we've been baiting bears in Arkansas here Gene, and

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Speaker 2: it got to where you couldn't hardly take a bear

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Speaker 2: over bait just because they were eating acorns, I mean

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Speaker 2: mass crop, just a bumper crop.

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Speaker 3: They love those acorns and the protein.

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Speaker 2: Yes they do, and so and so basically we were

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Speaker 2: the houndsmen were on call, the guys that had these dogs,

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Speaker 2: and on Sunday gave and fish got a picture and

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Speaker 2: the bear just walked right past all the traps.

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Speaker 1: Just didn't even go in them.

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Speaker 2: And the houndsmen were called and within two hours dogs

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Speaker 2: were on the ground, and within an hour of the

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Speaker 2: dogs being on the ground, essentially they tread this bear.

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Speaker 2: And so the question that remains, and this has been

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything that has not been put out

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Speaker 2: by the media. We don't know one hundred percent that

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Speaker 2: the bear that was killed by game fish in these houndsmen.

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Speaker 2: We don't know if that was the bear, but it

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Speaker 2: was a We know for sure that it was a

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Speaker 2: juvenile male that was in the camp with this guy,

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Speaker 2: and we know that this was the only and the

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Speaker 2: first bear that showed back up at the spot, and.

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Speaker 1: It was a juvenile male.

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Speaker 2: There's it's hard, you know, the markings on the bear,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to say. I mean, the bear had a

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Speaker 2: tan muzzle. The bear that was killed had a tan muzzle,

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Speaker 2: so it's it's difficult, but there were no other distinguishing characteristics.

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Speaker 3: That Well, the test will come back, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So they've they've the DNA test will come back. We'll

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Speaker 2: know for certain if it was the bear or not.

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Speaker 2: But you know, a lot of people I would imagine

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Speaker 2: this year in the state, there's going to be a

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Speaker 2: lot of bear encounters that have always happened, and people

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Speaker 2: are probably gonna overreact a little bit to them. And

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Speaker 2: I think it's already happened even this week, there's been

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Speaker 2: reports of a bear that was kind of terrorizing people

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Speaker 2: at a camp, which to my knowledge with the information

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Speaker 2: I have right now, which this is being recorded before this,

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Speaker 2: you're hearing this, but right now, this morning, there was

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Speaker 2: a news report of a bear terrorizing some campers and.

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Speaker 4: In the area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yesterday for real, Yes, in Franklin County.

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Speaker 2: These hikers on the Ozark Islands Trail reported a bear

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Speaker 2: giving them a lot of trouble. The real story and

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Speaker 2: what is in the SoundBite is, to my understanding right

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Speaker 2: now today is quite a bit different, and it probably

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Speaker 2: was fairly normal bear behavior and no one was hurt,

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Speaker 2: No one was attacked, no doubt. It was a little

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Speaker 2: bit scary for someone, sure, but to my knowledge, it

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Speaker 2: would not have been that abnormal. I mean, like basically

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Speaker 2: a bear came into the camp.

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Speaker 3: People are hyper sensitized right now.

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Speaker 2: They are they are, and so I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of that's going to happen this year, maybe all over

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Speaker 2: bear country.

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Speaker 1: And you know, here's the bottom line is, if you

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Speaker 1: have a bear.

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Speaker 2: Casually dealing with you, that is hanging around, you need

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Speaker 2: to get the heck out of there, and you need

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Speaker 2: to do everything you can.

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Speaker 1: To get that bear out of there, yep.

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Speaker 2: Like it's not abnormal to see a bear cruise past

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Speaker 2: your camp. I mean sometimes they're pretty nonchalant, especially when

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Speaker 2: there's food involved. And that doesn't mean that that bear

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Speaker 2: is a super threat. But man, with the current circumscans,

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Speaker 2: if I saw a bear that was casual with its

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Speaker 2: encounters with humans, I mean, you need to run that

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Speaker 2: bear off. You don't need to casually handle.

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Speaker 4: Don't be standing there taking pictures of them.

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Speaker 2: I mean that and and that's that's the truth anywhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's the truth anywhere in bear countries. You just can't

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Speaker 2: be lasadaisical. You know, ninety nine thousand out of one

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand times that bear is not going to do

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Speaker 2: anything with you. But for whatever reasons, has happened twice

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Speaker 2: in the last month here.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, well, our condolences to the family. No doubt

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Speaker 4: they're terrible, tragic into these these guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no doubt common sense in the bear woods.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, man, I don't know. I'd probably be

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Speaker 4: carrying some pepper spray these days too, Yeah, wouldn't hurt.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of changed the way bear and

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Speaker 1: I think about black bears.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we've kind of built a ideology of

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Speaker 2: just casual, you know, just like, hey, these bears aren't

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Speaker 2: going to hurt you. You got a better chance of

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Speaker 2: getting you know, hurt on the highway or in engagement

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Speaker 2: with the humans. Probably more dangerous than any baron counter

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Speaker 2: you'll ever have. But there's something about being arms reached

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Speaker 2: from an attack like this that makes you kind of

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Speaker 2: just go goly.

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Speaker 1: You'd hope you're just prepared.

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Speaker 2: But I just want to say it over and over again, man, bears,

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Speaker 2: bears are expanding their range all across the country. Bear

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Speaker 2: and humans are overlapping more and more and more, and uh,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing to be afraid of. That's something to be celebrated,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, in the vast majority of American's opinion.

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Speaker 2: But you just can't be casual with them. You can't

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Speaker 2: be casual, can't can't let them just come in your

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Speaker 2: camp and.

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Speaker 3: Don't feed them again common sense?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Bear.

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Speaker 7: You anything to add m Yeah, I mean, like you said,

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Speaker 7: it was definitely pretty wild be that close to a

352
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Speaker 7: bear attack like the first one happened, And I mean

353
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Speaker 7: it was pretty wild, but it didn't really, It didn't

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Speaker 7: really change any way that I would have gone about

355
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Speaker 7: in bear country. But seeing the second one and actually

356
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Speaker 7: being there was like definitely extremely eye opening.

357
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Speaker 1: To what they could what they could do.

358
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Speaker 7: It definitely like we were in the bearwoods yesterday bear hunting,

359
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Speaker 7: and I was definitely a lot more like I was

360
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Speaker 7: considering what, considering what could happen a lot more and

361
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Speaker 7: just being a lot more cautious about, like, you know,

362
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Speaker 7: getting really close to bears and especially small bears.

363
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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's probably the biggest takeaway, isn't it.

364
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Speaker 7: Yeah, Yeah, because both bears were juvenile males.

365
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Speaker 5: Yeah.

366
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Speaker 2: On average, over the last hundred years, there's been one

367
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Speaker 2: black bear fatality in North America per year on average.

368
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Speaker 1: Some years there's been in North America like North.

369
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Speaker 2: America, Wow, average one per year, But that means some

370
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: years there's none, right, some years there's three, maybe four,

371
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Speaker 2: But on average one. If you're killed by a black bear,

372
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Speaker 2: there is upwards of a ninety degree chance that it

373
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Speaker 2: was a juvenile male that killed you. This is where

374
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 2: the statistics get interesting. There's a but if you're just attacked,

375
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Speaker 2: like if you just come away with some bytes and

376
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 2: some scratches, there, it's like thirteen times higher a risk

377
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 2: that that would be a sal with cubs. I've talked

378
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Speaker 2: to a lot of people who said, oh, probably South cubs,

379
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Speaker 2: and I went No.

380
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Speaker 1: A sow with cubs.

381
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Speaker 2: Her objective inside of an attack would be to defend

382
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Speaker 2: her cubs just enough so they could get way, Like

383
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 2: she doesn't want.

384
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Speaker 5: To eat you.

385
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: There's a big, huge distinction between a South with cubs

386
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: defending her territory in a close range encounter and the

387
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: very rare, rare, rare, rare thing that is called the

388
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: predatory attack. When a bear sets his sights on you

389
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Speaker 2: and his intent is to kill you. That's it's a thing.

390
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 2: So does that make sense? So if if you're dead,

391
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: that it was probably a juvenile male that did it.

392
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,120
Speaker 2: If you were attacked and not killed, it was most

393
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: likely a South cubs upwards.

394
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Speaker 5: Of like.

395
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Speaker 1: Thirteen times higher chance. So there's.

396
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 2: Over ten to like ten to fifteen people per year

397
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 2: that get attacked by black bears but survive. The vast

398
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 2: majority of those are sALS with cubs.

399
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

400
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the stats are different. Now grizzlies is a

401
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: whole different story, like completely different story that.

402
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: We're not even talking about here.

403
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 2: But you know, on average, two people per year get

404
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 2: killed by grizzlies in North America. And when you consider

405
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: how many fewer grizzlies there are in the smaller range, you.

406
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: Really you extrapolate that out.

407
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: Black bears are, you know, all over the place, from

408
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: Maine to Old Mexico, from Florida to Alaska, everywhere in

409
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: between except the Great Plain States essentially, and we have

410
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: one bear killed per year. Grizzlies are essentially in the

411
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: Greater Yelstone ecosystem, and then in Canada up to Alaska.

412
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: I mean, the range just dramatically smaller, and there's two

413
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: kills per year and the attacks are are much more.

414
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 2: There was a guy attacked an elk hunter attacked pretty

415
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: critically this week. So grizz is a different story. We're

416
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 2: talking about black bears. But and that's why, and this

417
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: is kind of in the weeds, but that's why.

418
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Speaker 1: It helps to understand what you're doing.

419
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: If if you are attacked by a sow with cubs,

420
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: your best bet is to cover your head and neck,

421
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: getting the ball and act like you're dead because all

422
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 2: she wants to do is extinguish the threat. Threats O

423
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: ye she will leave you alone and go to her cubs,

424
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: chuckle her cubs out of the tree, and get out

425
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 2: of there. If it is a predatory animal, predatory meaning stalking,

426
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: direct eye contact, persistence in like, won't leave. If that

427
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: bear attacks you, you better fight for your life because

428
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: he is trying to kill you, right. The majority of

429
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 2: bear attacks have wounds on the forearms where people put

430
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: up their arm to protect themselves and they get bit

431
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: on the arm and they have lacerations and bites all

432
00:24:59,080 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: over the face.

433
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: A black bear goes.

434
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: For your face, it's interesting, like they so they don't

435
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: they don't really kill with the precision of like a

436
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: big cat. A big cat would go for the throat,

437
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: and I mean big cat fatalities and humans is just

438
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: like incredibly rare. It does happen, but a black bear

439
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: is more of just like a like a mauling.

440
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: But they do target on the head.

441
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 2: And you think about it when a black I don't

442
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: know if you've ever seen black bears fight, but when

443
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: two male black bears fight, they target the head of

444
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: the other male like they grab each other's ears and

445
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: they put their arms up almost like their boxing and fight.

446
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: And so I mean a.

447
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: Lot of interesting parallels, but as dark as all that

448
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: is black bears in humans, this conflict isn't going away.

449
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: And the more we kind of educate people, but a

450
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: lot of people have asked me, like, well, do you

451
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: run or do you yell? Man, if a bear came

452
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: into my camp just casually strolled by my camp and

453
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there camping with my food and everything, I

454
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: would yell and scream and throw stuff and stomp around.

455
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: And I mean, if you can.

456
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: Leave, yeah, at at best, put your food up way

457
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: away from your camp. I mean, that's standard procedure is

458
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: to put your food store, your food away from your camp,

459
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: because they really don't want you, They want your food.

460
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: They're attracted to the camp, to the food. So that's

461
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: my that's my take on the take on the situation.

462
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: And just yeah, true condolence is to the family there

463
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: in Missouri. Just just super sad situation.

464
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

465
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

466
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 7: And one one more thing that I learned just from

467
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 7: the two is that if a if you're not armed

468
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 7: and a black bear wants to kill you, it's it's

469
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 7: probably gonna kill you. Like that's the thing that I learned,

470
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 7: was like, you, like, there's no reason to necessarily be

471
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 7: afraid of them. But like if it's wanting to kill you,

472
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 7: it's like you're not gonna fight it off.

473
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: Like these were like eighty pound bears.

474
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, and they just I mean, there's like no way

475
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 7: you're gonna fight one off unless you're arm.

476
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: That is a good point because I talked to a

477
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: buddy of mine this week. He's a big guy, like

478
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 2: probably two hundred and thirty pounds, and we had this

479
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: conversation about like, ah, if one hundred pounds bear got

480
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: on you, you could just fend it off like you

481
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 2: would a dog. One hundred pounds of bear muscle is

482
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: way stronger than one hundred pounds of human.

483
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: Muscle, and their reflex is so fast. The claws and

484
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: the teeth, we're no match.

485
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: I think that's the thing. Like if a bear hits

486
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: you in the face claws, I mean that's you're done.

487
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 4: Like even if you like he takes your vision or

488
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 4: something like that, it's like you have no defense against that.

489
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

490
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: And if you've ever seen bears fight, which you probably

491
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: have sitting on bear baits in Canada like I have, Mayan.

492
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: God, They're wicked. You wouldn't want to be there. You

493
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to be on the other end of them,

494
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: just really wanting to tear into.

495
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and back to what you said about them going

496
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 3: for the face. A lot of times you'll see an

497
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: old bear, but his face is all scarred up from

498
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 3: the fights. You know. They when they're fighting each other,

499
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: they're going for the head. They're trying to repeat your

500
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: head off. They bite the claw and the muzzles are

501
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: all scarred. Yeah. You know, you can see an old

502
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 3: boar bear he's been in some battles and those scars

503
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: all show on his muzzle.

504
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ears, yeah right, you know where they're biting

505
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: at each other.

506
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 4: It just makes me reevaluate that whole video where you

507
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 4: and Brent were in the stand and that bear comes

508
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 4: in the the blind like that could have turned south

509
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 4: in a hurry.

510
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's true. Well that was

511
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: a that was a.

512
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: Kind of a dark introduction to a wonderful topic. The

513
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: story of Ischi, to me is one of the great

514
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: stories of this continent.

515
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: I agree, no matter which angle you come from, if

516
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: you come at it like we from the angle of

517
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: bow hunting, you know, in our archery and buehunting history,

518
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: or if you just come at it from an angle

519
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: of you know, anthropology and the history of Native Americans

520
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: in our country, in our country, the evolution of me,

521
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: and you know, the treatment of how we treat each other.

522
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: No matter what angle you come at this story from,

523
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: it's just fascinating.

524
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: Yes, But Gene, give us, give us a little introduction.

525
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: People would have heard me talk about you some on

526
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: the podcast, but you have a long history in bow hunting.

527
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: But I can say this, and you could too if

528
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: you weren't so humble. You have one of, if not

529
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: the premiere collection of bow hunting artific facts in the country.

530
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do, you know, take away the humble part

531
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: of it. But I'm fascinated with history, you know, And

532
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 3: I've always been a history buff in school. You know,

533
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: history was my favorite topic. But then I love hunting

534
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: with the bone and arrow. So to be able to

535
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: put the history of hunting with the bow and arrow together,

536
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: you know, how much better can it be? So I've

537
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 3: always been a collector, you know, a saver. When I

538
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: was young, I got collected coins, and I collected stamps,

539
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: and you know, I collected vintage firearms. But I started

540
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: saving old archery equipment just because you know, as bow

541
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: hunters we do that. We throw our old broadheads in

542
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: a drawer, and pretty soon you've got a drawer full

543
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: of nineteen different broadheads, and then you move from saving

544
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: to collecting. But I really don't think of it as

545
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 3: collecting anymore. I think of it as caretaking. You know.

546
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 3: What I'm doing is preserving. What I hope I'm doing

547
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: is preserving the items, but not just the items, but

548
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 3: the story of the items and the story of the

549
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: people who use those items. I'm caretaking that for my generation,

550
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: and there will be a time when I'm looking for

551
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: somebody like Bear, you know, who's the next caretaker. And

552
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: that's me, our duty. That's what we owe those people

553
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: who came before us, you know, the pioneers of Fred

554
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 3: Bears and the Glenn Saint Charles. We owe that to them,

555
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: to keep their story alive, all the work they did

556
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: for us and all the sacrifices they made for us,

557
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: to keep that story alive and keep their spirit alive.

558
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: By keeping their story alive.

559
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: Will you tell me what is in your museum, Give

560
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: me a rundown.

561
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 3: A lot of people will collect something or save something

562
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: that is most interesting to them. I have a really

563
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: good friend in Michigan, John Cabisa, and John focuses on

564
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: the history of bow hunting and Michigan. Other people will

565
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 3: collect just simply Fred Beher items or Ben Pearson items

566
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 3: and things, you know, from the history of those people

567
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: or those companies. For me, it's the history of the

568
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: pioneers of our sport. So and I quantify that. What

569
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: I'm saying is, you know, pre nineteen fifty, in nineteen fifty,

570
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: our sport was off the ground pretty good through the

571
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: efforts of Fred Beer and Glenn Saint Charles and Howard

572
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: Hill and Roy Case and a lot of different people.

573
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: But prior to nineteen fifty, there, you know, our sport

574
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: was going through some really difficult times. You know, we

575
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: had been as the bow and arrow had been largely forgotten.

576
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: Even the Native Americans had forgotten about the bow and arrow.

577
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 3: When the gun came along. If you wanted to go hunting,

578
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 3: you want hunting to survive, you want hunting to feed

579
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: your family, so you wouldn't take a bow and arrow.

580
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: You'd take a rifle or a shotgun. Well, in the

581
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: late eighteen hundreds, a couple of brothers, the Thompson brothers

582
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: from Crawfordsville, Indiana, wrote a book called The Witchery of Archery,

583
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: and it was right after the Civil War, and right

584
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 3: after the Civil War, for the time in our country's history,

585
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 3: people are starting to have a little bit of free time,

586
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 3: and they're starting to have a little bit of free

587
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: spending money. So you see a lot of sports growing

588
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: at that time. You see badminton, you see tennis, you

589
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: see bicycling, and things like that start to appear as sports.

590
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: And we're starting to look for things to do with

591
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: that spare time and that spare money. So when they

592
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: wrote that book, The Witchery of Archery was published in

593
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: eighteen seventy eight, people around the country are reading this

594
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: book and they're reading the magazine articles that these guys

595
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: are writing, and they're saying that sounds like fun. You know,

596
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: bow and arrow, I'd forgotten about that. Let's pick up,

597
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: let's go find us at bow and arrow. Let's go

598
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: out and shoot. And at that time, not a lot

599
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: of people were hunting with bone arrow. The Thompson brothers

600
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: were a few others were, but target archery started to

601
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: become a big deal, and the National Archery Association was

602
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 3: formed in eighteen seventy nine through the efforts of the

603
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 3: Thompson brothers and the exposure they gave to our sport.

604
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: So now we start to see a lot of clubs

605
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: springing up around the country of shooting targets with the

606
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 3: bawe and air. Well, that kind of tailed off a

607
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, around nineteen hundred or so, and

608
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 3: then the story of Issue comes along nineteen eleven. Issue

609
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: comes down meets Pope. You've heard all this, you know,

610
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,479
Speaker 3: in the two podcasts we did before. And then Pope

611
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: writes this book, Hunting with the Ball and Arrow, and

612
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: he publishes this in nineteen twenty three. Now, this book

613
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: really ignites the revolution of fire of people that want

614
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: to go out and hunt with a ball and arrow.

615
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: I told briefly the story of Doug Easton in the

616
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 3: earlier podcast. You know, Doug was out as a teenager

617
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 3: hunting small game rabbits with a shotgun and they come

618
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: back to the car for a break and one of

619
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: the shotguns falls over, discharges and part of the shot

620
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 3: hit Doug in the legs. A Doug spends a year

621
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: in the hospital recovering from the wounds, and during that

622
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: time somebody brings him one of Pope's books about hunting

623
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 3: with the ball and arrow, and he read the book,

624
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 3: and all that time and all the different operations he

625
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: had in the hospital, he reads this book and it

626
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 3: fires him up about archery. So you know, that's what

627
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: got Dug Easton into archery. And he started shortly after that,

628
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 3: in the nineteen twenties, he started each Eastern Archery company.

629
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 3: So story after story after story of people that are

630
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 3: coming from that. Let's say that point of issue being

631
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 3: the spark that ignited the fire, and then Pope and

632
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: Young and Compton starting that fire and carrying that fire

633
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 3: to the next generation. And that's why we're here today.

634
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: If that hadn't happened, if Issui hadn't been the spark,

635
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: if Pope hadn't looked down his window that day and

636
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 3: saw Issu shooting the bow out there on the grounds

637
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: of the University of California, Pope hadn't walked down of

638
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: his office and went down to issue and what are

639
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: you doing. I'm shooting a bow that looks like fun.

640
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: Pope grew up in Texas and there were a lot

641
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 3: of Natives Americans still around, and they were still shooting

642
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 3: a bow's but you know it wasn't it was fun.

643
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 3: It was a game to the right, right, So he

644
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: had been exposed to a bone arrow. But that day

645
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: and when he saw Issue out there on the lawn

646
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,959
Speaker 3: shooting the bow, is when he went out and he said,

647
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 3: you know what I want to do this. I want

648
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: to become an archer. And eventually then that translated nerd

649
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: transformed into I want to become a bowl hunter.

650
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: And I think what made the Ishy story and Pope

651
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: that be such a lightning strike is because of the

652
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: nature of who is. She was completely disconnected from Western civilization.

653
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 2: And you know, if you listen to the first episode,

654
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: you would have seen each He's like fifty years old,

655
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 2: been in hiding his entire life. His people were incredibly primitive,

656
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: surprisingly primitive. Like when you understand the history of Native

657
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: Americans across the country, you see this like slow roll

658
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: of either extermination, removal to reservations, or assimilation essentially, right,

659
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: I mean, And so there were Native Americans presumably that

660
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: were still shooting bows and whatnot in that time. But

661
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: with Ishi, he stepped out of the woods and that

662
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: had been the primary tool for his entire gather protein.

663
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 3: That's the only thing he knew was the bowl and arrow.

664
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's I want to ask you a question.

665
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: Do you think men Bear had this conversation yesterday?

666
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: Ishi?

667
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: Is this one guy out of that entire civilization that

668
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: was you know, became the epicenter of archery? Do you

669
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: My question is how good was Ishi? Because imagine us

670
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: picking a bow hunter out of all the people that

671
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: we know and that guy being the single touch point

672
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: for archery, and like, I wonder if people in his company,

673
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: in his tribe, I mean, even for generations before, would

674
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 2: have been like one one extreme would have been like

675
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: Ishi was the best archer, bow hunter, bowyer flint Napper

676
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: of all time. Thank goodness that he was the one

677
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: that made it through to talk to Saxon and Pope.

678
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: Or do you think they would be like.

679
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: You're kidding me, right?

680
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: That guy?

681
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: That guy was Like how you should have had this guy?

682
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 2: How good do you think she was?

683
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to break that into two. As far

684
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 3: as Flintnapping goes, I think he must have been one

685
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 3: of the best. Really, you look at his points and

686
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 3: I wish you know, at some point I want you

687
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 3: to look at the point that I've got of his

688
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 3: and you see the skill that's in that and to

689
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 3: be able to make a point that precise, and that

690
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 3: how it is, how hard it is to make one

691
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 3: thin and still keep that integrity of the point. And

692
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: you know it's this long and and it's so narrow,

693
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 3: and it's so finally.

694
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: Made baseline competency though, I mean, do you think, like

695
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 2: everybody was that I've.

696
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: Got some other points that came from that area and

697
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: they're you know, most of those are obsidian points. And

698
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: he Iss, she liked to make points from glass. And

699
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: even before the nineteen eleven, before the capture, he would

700
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: when they were raiding the stock cabins and they were

701
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: raiding the settlers cabins, they would sometimes steal the plates

702
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: and they would go to the trash pile and get

703
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 3: the broken plates and they would make points from that.

704
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 3: Or they would get the you know, the old insulators

705
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 3: from railroads, or you know, they would get the milk

706
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: of magnesia bottles. That would be a favorite for them,

707
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 3: and they would make it out of glass because glass

708
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: was easier to work than obsidian, and obsidians a volcanic glass.

709
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 3: But not all obsidian is pure obsidian. There's a lot

710
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: of of abnormalities in the obsidian, but you take a

711
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 3: glass plate or a bottle or something like that, it's

712
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 3: pretty pure, so it was easier to make a more

713
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 3: precise point. So it's maybe not a fair comparison. But

714
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: some of the points that i've that I've got that

715
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 3: are also from that area. There were you know a

716
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 3: lot of people call them the Milk Creeks, you know,

717
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 3: the Yahee, also known as the Creek Indians because they

718
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: came from the Mill Creek area. And those points are

719
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 3: still fairly well made, you know, but they're not Issue quality.

720
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: Maybe that's because Issue was really really good at what

721
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 3: he did, and maybe it's because of the media he

722
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 3: worked in, you know, in the glass the bottles and

723
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 3: the plates and things was easier to work than obsidian.

724
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: Regardless, it's got a point to the high level of

725
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,959
Speaker 1: skill that that society had.

726
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely you just think of the chances of just picking

727
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: one guy, yeah, out of that that stream of people

728
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: for generations and him being as competent as is.

729
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: She was right pretty unique.

730
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: You know, as far as it's hunting and shooting ability.

731
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: There there's a lot of documentation that Pope wrote about

732
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: and some of the others wrote about is his shooting

733
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: skills were good, but they weren't. You know, he wasn't

734
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: going to be an Olympic caliber archer. But that's not

735
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 3: what he trained for and that's not you know, he

736
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: was about getting the animal close, because when you lose

737
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 3: an arrow at an animal and his culture, you know,

738
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 3: that was dinner. And if if this doesn't work, if

739
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: I don't hit him, or I don't kill him, or

740
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: I don't find him, I'm not eating tonight. Well they're

741
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: so they're focusing. They're all their effort was getting the

742
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 3: animal close. So I don't care about shooting thirty yards.

743
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: You know, we go out and we shoot thirty yards

744
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: forty yards sometimes for fun. He didn't care about that.

745
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: So you know, Pope and especially young were much better shots.

746
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: M okay did is she have a floating anchor?

747
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 3: His if you look at him, he would anchor more

748
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 3: into here. And his style of he didn't put his

749
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 3: fingers around the string like we do, two fingers under,

750
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: three fingers under. He would pinch the string and bring

751
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 3: it back and it was more like this.

752
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: What was the weight of the bows that he was making.

753
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 3: I would guess I've never seen an issue bow, but

754
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 3: I would guess the bows are probably you know, going

755
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 3: to be forty pound, you know, they're not heavy.

756
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: And he's pinching that string. Yeah, I guess whatever you

757
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: train yourself to do with your hands, your hands.

758
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: You know, his hands on his feet were so Yeah,

759
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: stories of his feet. You know, they gave him shoes

760
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: when when they caught him in the stockyard, they gave

761
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 3: him some clothing and they gave him some shoes, and

762
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: he wouldn't wear the shoes. They weren't comfortable to him.

763
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 3: But his feet were so calloused and so rough. He's

764
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: you know that he didn't need the shoes. Yeah, and

765
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: so yeah, if you've done this all your life, if

766
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: you walked over rocks all your life, if you've drawn

767
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 3: the bow this way all your life, you know, just

768
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 3: like playing a guitar, you're gonna have callouses, you know,

769
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 3: and your body's going to adapt to that.

770
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: Bear showing your fingers.

771
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 6: I've been shooting with two fingers for maybe like eight months,

772
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,959
Speaker 6: and the two fingers that I pull back with are

773
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 6: like significantly bigger.

774
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

775
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: Of course he's been shooting without a fingertab. Yeah, So

776
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: it's just been grat, which if you don't know traditional archery,

777
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: that's pretty most people. I don't do that pretty hardcore.

778
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: I shoot three.

779
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: Fingers under, which isn't necessarily that popular either, but I

780
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: use a finger tab. It's if I pull back a

781
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: traditional bow much over forty pounds with bare fingers, it

782
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 2: hurts my fingers.

783
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

784
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: The bear the other day was like, hey, Dad, look

785
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: at my hands, and his fingers are like notably bigger

786
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: on the two that he's been working. So, I mean

787
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: you're starting to see, Yeah, you do that your whole life.

788
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: There's an illustration in one of the books that Gene

789
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 4: has of issues bowhand too, and the way he the

790
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 4: way he.

791
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 3: Held more or less.

792
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's weird. How he used his fingers for a rest.

793
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 4: I can't I can't even.

794
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 3: Oh you're talking about the bowhands, the string head.

795
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the way he had he was.

796
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: He would somehow I can't even try to recreate it here,

797
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: but he would use his hand. We don't. He didn't

798
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: have a shelf on his bow, he didn't have a

799
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: rest on his bow. The arrow would lay on his

800
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 3: on his fist.

801
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but he tucked his thumb.

802
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 6: It was like a weird his thumb was the shelf.

803
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah, I've seen it. It's it's man. Yeah,

804
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: they must have been getting stuff close.

805
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the whole point, you know, and deer

806
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 3: where I got to say, you know, we both hunted

807
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: a lot, and sometimes you get into an area where

808
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 3: the animals haven't been hunted as often or as hard,

809
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 3: and they're not as wary. So you know, I'm thinking,

810
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 3: you know, they're not the white tail in California at

811
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: that time period. We're probably not as weary as the

812
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: white tail we have today, which see people every day

813
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 3: have arrowshot at them every week, so you know, it

814
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 3: might have been a little different game to get animals

815
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 3: closer to them.

816
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: So you're in your museum though you've got like twenty

817
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 2: three hundred over two thousand bows and.

818
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I felcus again back to that. You know, we

819
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 3: get a little rabbit hole now and then, but they

820
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: come back out of the rabbit hole. Now. What I

821
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: like are the pre nineteen fifty and that's the era

822
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 3: where you know, I call it the pioneering era. From

823
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 3: eighteen seventies to nineteen fifty. This is when people are

824
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: starting to really get into the sport for the first time.

825
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: You know, we don't have books to read, we don't

826
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 3: have magazines, we don't have videos, and we're going out

827
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: and we're shooting a bow and arrow. But it looks

828
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: like fun. It sounds like fun. It is fun, But

829
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm doing. How does an arrow work?

830
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: What kind of broadhead should I be using. They didn't

831
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: know that a broadhead had to be raiz or sharp,

832
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: surgical sharp. They didn't know that, you know, all the

833
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 3: things that we take for granted today about hunting with

834
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 3: a ball and arrow. They were learning, they were discovering.

835
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 3: And even when I started, I started my first year

836
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 3: bowling was for deer was nineteen seventy, and a lot

837
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: of the things I was taught in nineteen seventy aren't true.

838
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 3: I was taught that you wanted to get an arrow

839
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 3: in a deer, and you wanted the arrow to stay

840
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 3: in a deer because when he ran, you wanted to

841
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: get to cut, you know, cutting more as he was running.

842
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 3: Well after that, we learned that we need to get

843
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 3: blood on the ground, and to get blood on the ground,

844
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: you need an exit wound. And that's where you know,

845
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 3: especially shooting from a tree stand the entrance round's going

846
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 3: to be high, the exit wound's going to be low,

847
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 3: and your your blood trail is going to come from

848
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 3: down here. So we want complete pass through to be

849
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 3: able to get that blood on the ground. Well, for

850
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: that to happen, we want that arrow to pass through

851
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: the animal as quickly, in effort effortlessly as possible. We

852
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: don't want the arrow to stay in the animal because

853
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 3: we're not going to get a blood trail. So they

854
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 3: were learning all this stuff, you know, they were writing

855
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 3: the books, and that's the period I like. That's the

856
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 3: period I like to focus on. So when I'm looking

857
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 3: for things in my collection, I'm not looking for, you know,

858
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: a nineteen seventy Bear Kodiak, they're great bows. I'm looking

859
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: for something that was a wood bow that was made

860
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: by somebody with a spokeshave and a draw knife over

861
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,479
Speaker 3: their workbench and their blood, sweat and tears are still

862
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: their DNA are still on that wood, you know, And

863
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: that's the that's the kind of stuff I like in

864
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: my collection.

865
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

866
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, in seventy years it will be Iron Bears, classic

867
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 4: bows and putting them in him.

868
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: He's gonna sign it though.

869
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanna I wanna ask you two to give

870
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: us some place to start. What what stood out to you,

871
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: Josh in this second episode.

872
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 4: Man, it's such a it's it's such a powerful story.

873
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 4: And I think that there's a lot of things that

874
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 4: us in modern society could pull from the life of

875
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 4: Ishi after his emergence. And I think, I think, I'm

876
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 4: I'm drawn to the character of Ishi. Yeah, and I

877
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 4: have great appreciation because the injustices that were done to

878
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 4: his people and to him.

879
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: And he was an eyewitness to all of.

880
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 4: Those exactly, were incalculable to us, like we can't even

881
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 4: be compared, like we we don't understand that. But to

882
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 4: take this man from a jail cell in Oroville to

883
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 4: Berkeley and for his I don't want to say assimilation,

884
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 4: because I don't know that is she assimilated, But his

885
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 4: adaptation to life inside of modern society was incredible. And

886
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 4: the way that he was able to I can't imagine

887
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 4: that is she ever forgot about his family or how

888
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,919
Speaker 4: he lived, but how he didn't carry that, I don't

889
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 4: know another way to say it. Then he walked through

890
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 4: a fire, came out and didn't smell like smoke, and

891
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 4: he was able to live his life joyful, build strong

892
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,959
Speaker 4: relationships with people that he cared about, live a life

893
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 4: in a world that was completely unimaginable to him previously.

894
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 4: I think it's just commendable for a human being, And

895
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: that is really what impacted me when I hear his story.

896
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: Jan said it a couple of times just about the

897
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: care character of the character.

898
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: The character of the man was incredible.

899
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, he.

900
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 3: Comes out of hiding in nineteen eleven and he's seen

901
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 3: his whole family, his whole culture, his whole tribe killed

902
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 3: before his eyes. These are things he's eyewitness to, and

903
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 3: he comes out of that in nineteen eleven, comes down

904
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: into that stockyard, and within a matter of two months

905
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 3: he's at the University of California and they're opening the

906
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 3: anthropology wing, and of course Issue's going to be a

907
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 3: focus of the new anthropology wing they're opening. And so

908
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 3: they have all these dignitaries coming from all over the

909
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 3: country to come to the opening. They would have come anyhow,

910
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 3: but they're coming really now. Especially I want to see

911
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 3: Issue while I'm here. So he's got to transform from

912
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 3: this stone age man to this man who's going to

913
00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: be welcoming dignitaries at the university opening of their new

914
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 3: anthropology department in just a matter of two months. So

915
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: he's in good clothing and he's taught enough English to

916
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 3: be able to welcome those people. And when he welcomes

917
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 3: those people in his culture, in his mind, he has

918
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: to give them the respect to say their name.

919
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: So that was something that he was doing on his own.

920
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: He was doing that on his own. He wasn't coached

921
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 3: to do that. That was part of his culture, That

922
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 3: was part of his his respect, you know, for other people.

923
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 3: So when he would be introduced to somebody, he would hello, mister,

924
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, he would repeat their name on purpose, because

925
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 3: that was his way of showing respect to people who

926
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 3: have killed his tribe, his family just a matter of

927
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: years before that. And that was that was a sign

928
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: of his culture, you know.

929
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because it was said and Krober

930
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: said it in her book, but about how he wouldn't

931
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 2: say his name because there was no one, no one, no.

932
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 3: One left alive to give me a name.

933
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: Yes, but that was the story he gave.

934
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 3: Of course he had a name, you know, that was

935
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 3: the story he gave them. But of course he had

936
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 3: a name. Yes, he just in his culture, you weren't

937
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 3: allowed to say your own name, you.

938
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: Know, right, Well, it's interesting that he was doing what like,

939
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 2: by him saying your name, it kind of validates that

940
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 2: ye like, I'm not going to say my name.

941
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's very important for me to know your name, yes,

942
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 3: but it's not so important for me to be speaking

943
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 3: my name. So it was, you know, again back to

944
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 3: the culture of that society that it was not all

945
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: about me, it was about you. It was about us, you.

946
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 2: Know that that right, that statement right there, and the

947
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: stuff about the name, I just my brain just spends

948
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: when I try to understand what it would be like

949
00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: to not have this Western ideology of this individualistic society

950
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: is so deep, it's so deep inside of us, this

951
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 2: idea of exceptional like personal exceptionalism.

952
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: Me.

953
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: Look what I've done.

954
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 2: I mean even the We've talked about it in other things,

955
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: but we did a we did a series on to

956
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 2: comes to the Shawnee Leader, and I talked to Ben Barnes,

957
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: the chief of the Shawnee today, a modern chief, and

958
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: he says that in their language, even the structure of

959
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 2: language and where they put nouns is different than English.

960
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: English emphasizes who, what, who did it? Like if I

961
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 2: say something, I say I cook the soup, the emphasis

962
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 2: on I, And in the Shawnee language the emphasis would

963
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: not be on.

964
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: You, me or who did it? The soup was cooked.

965
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: And you know the point is we are.

966
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 3: It's foreign to us, but it's there's something to be

967
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 3: learned from that, right. I think there's a a good

968
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 3: moral lesson there for us. And I think another interesting story,

969
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 3: you know, in that time period there where he's again

970
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: he's just come out of this stone age culture and

971
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 3: how he's living in you know, the University of California

972
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 3: and meeting all these dignitaries from all over the world,

973
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 3: and he would be invited to go into these different rooms,

974
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 3: different meetings and such. And when he walked into the room,

975
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 3: one of the things he would always say to people

976
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: as he walked in and he was trying again to

977
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 3: speak English, you know, he was trying to assimilate, you know,

978
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 3: his into this new world. And when he walked into

979
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 3: the room, he would say, everybody happy, And it was

980
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 3: really important for him. It was really important for him

981
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 3: to know that everybody in the room was feeling good.

982
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 3: Are you happy? You know, everybidy happy. You can just

983
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 3: imagine his accent, you know, saying that. And I think

984
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 3: that's just another another aspect of who he was as

985
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 3: a man. But I think he was as a man

986
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: probably as he was the culture.

987
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm just imagining him walking into his camp

988
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: on Mill Creek with his mother and his sister cousin.

989
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was part of their culture.

990
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 3: It was part of their culture.

991
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: It would have had to have been.

992
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 2: And that's what's so unique about issue that will never,

993
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: at least on this continent that never have another opportunity

994
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 2: to is to deal with somebody that was that isolated

995
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 2: from Western society and to draw these conclusions about who

996
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 2: they were. Here's the questions that I have though, Like

997
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 2: talking about how happy is she was, It's possible a

998
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: critic today could be like, what was he really happy?

999
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: Well, and we all know.

1000
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 2: That humans we're supposed to not just tell every We

1001
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 2: live in a restraint as powerful like if I'm unhappy

1002
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 2: right now, like you don't have to know about it.

1003
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: I mean, so, like, I wonder how how traumatic, how

1004
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 2: much his front of being happy and cordial I was real.

1005
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 3: Here's what I think, and I feel pretty confident in this.

1006
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 3: When when the door was closed, he had to shed tears.

1007
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 3: He had to. But when the door was open, that

1008
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: was the real issue. You know, the inside of issue

1009
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 3: was a happy person. The inside of issue was an optimist.

1010
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 3: When the door was closed, the memories had to come back.

1011
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1012
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, Yeah, it's wild that he didn't hold any or

1013
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 7: at least it doesn't seem like he held any bitterness

1014
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 7: towards right.

1015
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: The people that wiped out his whole culture.

1016
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1017
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 2: I think I think that bitterness, though, is an artifact

1018
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 2: of our modern society.

1019
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: I really do.

1020
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: Like I don't think he would have known that he

1021
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: had permission, and I don't know, not permission from a person,

1022
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: That's not what I mean, but like like bitterness, I

1023
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 2: don't know. I think really there's something inside of there's

1024
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: something about knowledge and the communication and the all the

1025
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 2: biases that we have about other people or other social

1026
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 2: classes of people or people from wherever that like you kind.

1027
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: Of like, you know, I'm going to feel like you can.

1028
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 3: Just just hit me, as you said that, just hit me.

1029
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 3: The world today is filled so full of hate, and

1030
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,280
Speaker 3: I wonder if hate was a concept that he even had,

1031
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 3: you know, and.

1032
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 4: Maybe that was the Well, that's an interesting thought.

1033
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, just you know, everything that's happened over the last

1034
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 3: few weeks, months, and even years. You know, hate is

1035
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 3: a big part of our culture today. Wow. See, if

1036
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 3: we didn't have hate, maybe that's what's separated in.

1037
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 2: Well and the fact that we could imagine a culture

1038
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: that didn't have hate, Yeah, because you know, you think

1039
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 2: about you would think, Ischi with this little tight group

1040
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: of people that have been exterminated, that his family would

1041
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 2: have been sitting up on that mountain looking down there,

1042
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 2: saying those evil people, Yeah, it's trying to kill us.

1043
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 2: We've got to And maybe they weren't.

1044
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 3: You know. And I've got a bookshelf full of books

1045
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 3: on issue. You know, Krober's book is one, and that's

1046
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 3: the most well known, but there's a lot of books.

1047
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 3: I brought several here today, every book that I've read

1048
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 3: about issue over the years. Nothing in there is ever

1049
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 3: makes you believe there was there was animosity, you know,

1050
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 3: hate or animosity, whichever word you want to use. Nothing

1051
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: in there ever leads me to believe that he or

1052
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 3: his family members ever had any of that feeling even

1053
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 3: while they were all alive.

1054
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: That's an odd place to be though, when you when

1055
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: you know that these people are after you to kill you.

1056
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 2: They the surveyors that stole all their gear and supplies,

1057
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 2: which is just it's just hard to imagine.

1058
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: It's also I also.

1059
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: Know that historical revision is really complicated for us today

1060
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 2: to be like, oh, those you know, barbarians, How could

1061
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,439
Speaker 2: they do that? I mean, you know, in their time,

1062
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, for some reason they felt the liberty

1063
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 2: to take take that stuff from them?

1064
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: How could you?

1065
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: Do?

1066
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 3: You know this? This old lady is obviously on her deathbed,

1067
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 3: laying there in the camp, and she's under the covers,

1068
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 3: and you steal everything. You steal everything except the bed

1069
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 3: and the covers that she's got. You take everything that

1070
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 3: they need to make food, to get food, to gather food,

1071
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 3: the baskets to carry the food. They take it all

1072
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 3: as souvenirs and leave the lady laying there. I mean,

1073
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 3: what kind of person does that take?

1074
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's one of the wild stories.

1075
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: That's one of the ones that makes me just cringe,

1076
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 3: you know, you know, I just you know, human nature

1077
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 3: can sometimes maybe there's evil in us that is buried deep,

1078
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 3: and most of us keep that buried deep and sometimes

1079
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 3: it comes to the surface. And that came to the surface.

1080
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 2: I think that would be a result of generations of

1081
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 2: not viewing those people as yeah, they're not people's right.

1082
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like and there had been that

1083
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 2: was at the tail end of literally a century plus

1084
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,439
Speaker 2: long I mean centuries plus long genocide. Yeah, so it's

1085
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 2: like these people were sub sub human, right. I think

1086
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 2: that's the only way that you could just see.

1087
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 3: Way could do it in your mind? How could you sleep?

1088
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,919
Speaker 3: You know? The story of Kingsley's Cave, which we talked

1089
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 3: about in the podcast, is one of the last massacres,

1090
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 3: you know, mass massacres of the Yahi. And there were

1091
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 3: about thirty three Yahie in this cave. They had been

1092
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: chased by these people, these four vigilantes, and they thirty

1093
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 3: three of the last remaining Yahi's going to this cave

1094
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 3: and these men walk in there with their rifles and

1095
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 3: just start shooting. You know, these people in a cave

1096
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 3: backed up against the wall, and they just men, women

1097
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 3: and children, and they just start shooting. Within One of

1098
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 3: them had a fifty six caliber Sharp's rifle and he's

1099
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 3: just blasting away with this repeater sharps, and he puts

1100
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 3: the rifle down and picks his pistol up to finish

1101
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 3: the job. And you know what he said afterwards, I

1102
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 3: put the rifle down and picked up the pistol because

1103
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 3: the rifle was tearing them up too bad, especially the

1104
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 3: little ones.

1105
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 5: Wow, brute.

1106
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. I mean that makes me cringe sitting

1107
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 3: here today.

1108
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: The brutality of it. Wow, incredible.

1109
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, But you know, I'll go back to the you know,

1110
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 3: talk about the good things about Ishi. I think again,

1111
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 3: the things we can learn from Ishi. You know, the

1112
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 3: optimist in him. You know, when they went on the

1113
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 3: nineteen forty expedition back up in the Yahee country, he

1114
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 3: didn't want to go because there were too many I

1115
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 3: think you said fourteen fourteen, nineteen fourteen. He takes Pope

1116
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: and Waterman and Krober and Pope's son Saxton Junior. Well,

1117
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 3: they planned this trip without him really being involved. And

1118
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 3: then they go to him and say, hey, you know,

1119
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 3: Issu She, We're going to go back up into where

1120
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 3: you came from and we're going to do a little

1121
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 3: expedition back up in there to see all these stories

1122
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 3: you tell us. We want to go see it issues like,

1123
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 3: you know, I don't really want to go. I mean,

1124
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 3: you know, and I can imagine what's going on in

1125
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 3: his mind. There's a lot of ghosts up there that

1126
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 3: all the memories that I don't want to relive. He

1127
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 3: didn't say that, but I got to think that's what

1128
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 3: he's thinking. You know, he didn't want to go. One

1129
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 3: person that I read speculated that he didn't want to

1130
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 3: go because he thought they were going to take him

1131
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 3: back up there and release him, you know, that they're

1132
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 3: going to put him back into the wild. Well, no,

1133
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 3: that's not what they were going to do. They wanted

1134
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 3: to truly go learn more about him, him and his

1135
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 3: culture by going into where he lived and where he

1136
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 3: had for those during those forty years of concealment. So

1137
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 3: they go up into there, and they finally convinced him

1138
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 3: to go up into there, and we talked about that

1139
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 3: in the podcast.

1140
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 5: You know.

1141
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 3: They had to make sure that all the equipment they

1142
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 3: took was stored in a room where it wasn't near

1143
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 3: the bones and all the things in the museum, because

1144
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 3: the spirits would have been not favorable on the trip

1145
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 3: if if that had happened. So they put everything in

1146
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 3: boxes and they shield it at all, you know, and

1147
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 3: convinced him that the spirits can't get into these boxes

1148
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 3: and they go up into the.

1149
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: She knew that was hogwash, well my life, but he

1150
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: was whatever he said.

1151
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 3: But when he got there, Once he got there, it

1152
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 3: was like you could you know, the relief over him

1153
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 3: to be back home. You know, it feels good to

1154
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 3: be home. It always feels good to be home, right

1155
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 3: that I don't want to go to I'm home feeling

1156
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 3: that he must have had. And then he took them

1157
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 3: around to all the places that he drew up, and

1158
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 3: he you know, where the stories he had been telling

1159
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 3: them about killing the bear when he was a young man,

1160
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 3: he killed a bear and you tah, I like the

1161
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 3: way you said it in the podcast. You know, the

1162
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 3: ceremonial disposal of the carcass was you know, he did that,

1163
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 3: and all these years later he's able to walk them

1164
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,439
Speaker 3: back and go to that spot and dig those bones up.

1165
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 3: This is where I killed the bear.

1166
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 5: Wow.

1167
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 3: And you know, and they he took them swimming in

1168
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 3: the holes where he swam as a young man. You know,

1169
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 3: he took them back to the grizzly Bear's hiding place

1170
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 3: where he was with the last four when the surveying

1171
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 3: party found them in nineteen oh eight. He recreated that

1172
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 3: whole experience for them on that trip and that trip

1173
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 3: lasted like six weeks and it was it must you know.

1174
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 2: Can you imagine that that trip, like when my buddy

1175
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: Steve Renella always talks about it, he could go on

1176
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 2: a time machine, you know, he'd go back with like

1177
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 2: the Pleistocene hunters and seeing kill mammoths and stuff. That

1178
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: trip right there would be high on the list.

1179
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 3: That'd be on my bucket list of the.

1180
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: Time machine trip.

1181
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 2: To imagine going back there with him. The question that

1182
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 2: I have about that trip, and again it's going back

1183
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 2: trying to get into the head of Ishi. But would

1184
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 2: he have wanted to go back? And if he could,

1185
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 2: I mean like to go back and live like because

1186
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 2: you think about.

1187
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 3: No, he and the you know the books talk about that,

1188
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: and his feelings were No, that's that's the old me.

1189
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 3: The new me is here. I'm happy now. I'm happy

1190
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 3: at the university, I'm happy with my job. I'm happy.

1191
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 2: I think that's true because there could And again I'm

1192
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 2: playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate, but just kind

1193
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 2: of trying to answer some question, you know, historical revision.

1194
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 2: You go back and you say, was the guy really

1195
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 2: happy or was he just appeasing his captors?

1196
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: How much agency? Actually, there's got.

1197
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 3: To be there's got to be truth to both of that,

1198
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 3: because I think again, the stories and the memories must

1199
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 3: have been overwhelming, and as a person, you me, all

1200
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 3: of us would be the same way if we'd witnessed

1201
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 3: the genocide of our people, of our family. I don't

1202
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 3: know that I want to go back there. It's painful.

1203
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, if I pushed those out

1204
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 3: of my mind, you know, that was home, that was

1205
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 3: where I came from. That's me. So I think that's

1206
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 3: where he transformed. You know, when they first approached him,

1207
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 3: he was like, no, not going, not going to do it,

1208
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 3: and then he was like once he got there.

1209
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 2: I also know that we it's a very difficult thing

1210
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 2: to not over romanticize, like his life living off the

1211
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 2: land too. I mean, I think it's possible that he

1212
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 2: would have come into civilization to California and he would

1213
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 2: have been like, oh, I can.

1214
01:05:58,520 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: Eat three times a day.

1215
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know have to.

1216
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: This bed is pretty comfortable. Yeah, these people are pretty nice.

1217
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 2: You know, in our mind and modern civilization, like now

1218
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 2: we have this romantic thing like we're trying to go back,

1219
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 2: you know, we're like, oh, man, if he could have

1220
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 2: just roam the woods man, he sounds like, by all accounts,

1221
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 2: he came back in he came into this place and

1222
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 2: was just like this is this is the way I

1223
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 2: want to live. I mean, and that's that's probably not

1224
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 2: fair to say that.

1225
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 3: You know, the relief of not having to worry, not

1226
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 3: just about being able to sustain my life through hunting

1227
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 3: and fishing and gathering, but the relief of not being

1228
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 3: shot at every day, you know, or being fear of

1229
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 3: being shot at every day. It must have been I

1230
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 3: can finally sleep, I can finally relax, I can finally rest.

1231
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 3: It probably not just the creature comforts that he had,

1232
01:06:58,360 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 3: but it was the life that he had.

1233
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1234
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, man, it wouldn't it have been incredible if

1235
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: he would have lived twenty five years.

1236
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, the more we could have learned from him.

1237
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 1: That's the saddest part of the deal.

1238
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 2: I mean, people as should probably learn if they listen

1239
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 2: to Bear Grease and it's an old story, there's going

1240
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 2: to be some tragic yeah, inside of it. Almost all

1241
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 2: these stories end in a tragic way. But I mean, now,

1242
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 2: the fact that he was here for five years is it.

1243
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm grateful for that. I mean he could

1244
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 2: have come in and died at tuberculosis in six months. O.

1245
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 3: You know, maybe he would have came in and not

1246
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 3: been associated with Krober and Waterman and Pope. You know,

1247
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 3: everything just came together. You know, it could have been

1248
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 3: scripted any better. Yeah, for those people, you know, Edwin Sappier,

1249
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 3: the linguist, Krober and Waterman, the anthropologists, Pope, the doctor

1250
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 3: to have all come into the story and all of

1251
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 3: them been the people they were, They really helped you

1252
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 3: know that story Flower, Yeah, you know, issue could have

1253
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 3: been captured, taken somewhere and the story would have been over.

1254
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah without those people.

1255
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1256
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 7: What I've found most interesting about the podcast, and just

1257
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 7: like listening to the whole story, was like how Ischi

1258
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 7: was kind of this like bottleneck of knowledge, Like all

1259
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 7: the knowledge from like thousands of years got passed through

1260
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 7: one man. Yeah, and you just wonder how much of

1261
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 7: that was lost. Like like whenever you look at like

1262
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 7: Arkansas Black Bears, they had this major population bottleneck and

1263
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,720
Speaker 7: so now like the genetic diversity is still recovering. It's

1264
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 7: the same way with all that knowledge, it kind of

1265
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 7: came down to this really tight bottleneck where it was

1266
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 7: just ischy, and then now it's kind of back on

1267
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:54,839
Speaker 7: the you know, like the knowledge is kind of being spread,

1268
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 7: but I'm sure a lot of it is kind of

1269
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,839
Speaker 7: being rediscovered. I'm sure, Like you just have to imagine

1270
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 7: how much of it would have been lost? Yeah, like

1271
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 7: how much we don't know. I mean, like the fact

1272
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 7: that easy could go kill a deer in three days

1273
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 7: is like, you know, with a primitive weapon. Like I

1274
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 7: tried all season last year to do that and couldn't

1275
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 7: do it. So it's like it just makes you wonder

1276
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 7: how much did the generations of knowledge?

1277
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: How much of that got lost?

1278
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we had this conversation yesterday about they go

1279
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 2: up there and in three days kill a deer with

1280
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 2: a primitive bow.

1281
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: It's like that's pretty hard.

1282
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 2: I challenge anybody in the country with a primitive bow,

1283
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 2: and there's got there's guys that do it and can

1284
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 2: and have and we've done it. But you know, I've

1285
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 2: got just on the spot to just go kill a

1286
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:45,439
Speaker 2: deer with a bow.

1287
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 3: Of one of the back We're going to back up

1288
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,719
Speaker 3: a little bit. You know, you asked me earlier about

1289
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 3: some of the things in my collection. One of the

1290
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 3: things in my collection is a quiver, a back quiver. No,

1291
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:58,679
Speaker 3: it's a belt quiver of Saxon Pope's. It was came

1292
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 3: from the pope's family direct, and it's made of white

1293
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 3: tail deer hide. Pope wouldn't have gone and bought a

1294
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 3: white tail deer hide and made a quiver from it.

1295
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 3: Pope killed that deer. Probably Pope killed that deer. Could

1296
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 3: have been Issue, but it probably Pope killed that deer

1297
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 3: and made that high or made that quiver out of

1298
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 3: the hide from the deer he killed, you know, because

1299
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 3: Issue was there to teach him how to do that.

1300
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 3: And he didn't kill that many white tail deer, you know,

1301
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 3: so it had to be one of the few white

1302
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 3: tail deer he killed in this time period. He died

1303
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty six, and that story of him going

1304
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 3: up into the mountains with Issue was nineteen fourteen, so

1305
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 3: a very short period of time there, and you know

1306
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 3: he killed I don't know, I don't remember now exactly

1307
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 3: a half a dozen deer during that time one of

1308
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 3: those deer. Is that quiver? It is it has to be.

1309
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.

1310
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:54,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you know that you can touch the history,

1311
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 3: you know, when you hold that in your hands, like

1312
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,040
Speaker 3: holding that issue point or holding that quiver or the

1313
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 3: bow that Pope killed the lions with over in in Africa.

1314
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 3: When you hold that in your hand, you know you're

1315
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:08,719
Speaker 3: holding the history of that bow. But you're also holding

1316
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 3: the history of that man, the man that made that bow,

1317
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 3: the man that used that bow. And that, to me,

1318
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 3: is what collecting is all about. It's not my collection

1319
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 3: isn't worth a nickel. You couldn't buy my collection. People

1320
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 3: have tried. It's not money. It's history, it's people, it's stories,

1321
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 3: and that's what makes it valuable.

1322
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: So interesting, what were the things that you said you

1323
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 1: wanted to You said there were a few things you

1324
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 1: wanted to clear up.

1325
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,520
Speaker 3: Well, you know, yeah, I think going back and you

1326
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 3: set the plate for us here when you talked about

1327
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 3: earlier in this taping, you talked about the character of

1328
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 3: the man. And that's one of the things I didn't

1329
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 3: think I did a good enough job with when in

1330
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 3: the two podcasts earlier we talked a lot about the events,

1331
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:02,240
Speaker 3: and we talked a lot about the stories, but we

1332
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 3: didn't talk enough about the character of the man. So

1333
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 3: we've talked a little bit about that today, and I

1334
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 3: think that's one of the main things I wanted to cover.

1335
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 3: But you know what kind of soul it takes to

1336
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 3: go through what he went through and come out of

1337
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 3: it an optimist and you know, walk into a room

1338
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 3: everybody happy. You know, when he left that trip in

1339
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 3: nineteen fourteen, when they finished the trip and they come

1340
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 3: back to the train station and they're going now back

1341
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 3: to Oroville, there's a crowd at the train station waiting

1342
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 3: to see is she leave? They're the hometown He's the

1343
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 3: hometown hero.

1344
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 4: Right, How ironic is that?

1345
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, just years before you're trying to wipe out the

1346
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 3: whole culture and now he's the hometown hero. Well, there's

1347
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:56,719
Speaker 3: a crowd of people at the train station to see

1348
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 3: is she leave? And that surprises is she? And it

1349
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 3: kind of must make him good. So he's on the

1350
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 3: train and he lowers the window and he sticks his

1351
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 3: head out the train window and he said, ladies and gentlemen, goodbye. Really,

1352
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,600
Speaker 3: that's just I mean, that's the kind of man he was.

1353
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 3: You know that's a good gentleman. Good bye my fans.

1354
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 3: Yeah wow, But you know, and how he came from.

1355
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 3: To really emphasize that point, in eighteen ninety four, while

1356
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 3: he was still in concealment, there was one of the

1357
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 3: ranchers who had been his cabin had been raided west

1358
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 3: certainly by the issue or by the Ahi over the years.

1359
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 3: Had gotten tired of being raided, things being stolen from

1360
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 3: his cabin, So I'll get those rascals. So he put

1361
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 3: a sack of flower out on the table. And he

1362
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 3: wasn't there. He used the cabin only temporarily or part time.

1363
01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 3: He puts a sack of flower on the table and

1364
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 3: he poisons the sack of flower with rat poison, and

1365
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 3: he puts a sign on the sack of flower that

1366
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 3: says poison. His logic was, if white man comes in,

1367
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:14,799
Speaker 3: white man can read, and he won't take the flower

1368
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,680
Speaker 3: because he knows it's poison. But if those rascal yeah

1369
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 3: he come in here, they won't be able to read.

1370
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 3: They'll take the flower and it'll kill them. So that's

1371
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 3: the kind of life that he lived for forty years

1372
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 3: in concealment, people trying to kill him, not to shoot

1373
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 3: him but poison, you know, vermin rat poison. Wow, and

1374
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 3: he comes out of that everybody happy. How do you

1375
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 3: do that? You know?

1376
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 2: I mean it's just it's such the story that shows

1377
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:51,639
Speaker 2: the humanity of all people. Yeah, you know, just all

1378
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 2: the differences that we have and that we see that

1379
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:56,679
Speaker 2: are external between men.

1380
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: I mean from different cultures, different times.

1381
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 2: The way we do things is the way we think

1382
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: about God, the way we think about our families. Man,

1383
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 2: there's really not that much difference.

1384
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: In all of us, you know, they shouldn't be.

1385
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:15,879
Speaker 2: And the fact that the fact that this was notable

1386
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 2: to me, how quickly is she understood in a functional

1387
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 2: way the modern world with a matter of days. It

1388
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,640
Speaker 2: just showed like there's no gap in his intelligence. You

1389
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,599
Speaker 2: could have taught she had a flying airplane.

1390
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:31,679
Speaker 4: Yep, he could.

1391
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:33,680
Speaker 2: He could have been a pilot in six months and

1392
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 2: flown a plane if he'd have been live. It was

1393
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 2: not an intelligence issue, which I think sometimes there's this

1394
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 2: gap in our ability to think about these these primitive

1395
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:49,520
Speaker 2: cultures as well. They must have been you know, not intelligent.

1396
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 2: Not so, I mean there were he is she could

1397
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 2: have had a i Q off the charts. I'm not

1398
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 2: saying he did, but he could have, and there were

1399
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 2: people that did that were just brilliant and you know,

1400
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 2: too interesting for.

1401
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 3: His family and his you know, other tribe members to

1402
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 3: have lived forty years up there in concealment, and for

1403
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 3: many of those years, people believed they were extinct because

1404
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 3: they were so good at covering their trail, and they

1405
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 3: walked from rock to rock, careful not to even make

1406
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 3: a footprint anywhere, not bend a branch, not break a branch,

1407
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 3: not leave any trace behind. I mean that's a sign

1408
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 3: of intelligence there, you know, in its own way. How

1409
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 3: could you be able to you know, think strategically like

1410
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 3: that for so many years.

1411
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hey, I want to do something, and I want

1412
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 2: to do it while Jean's here, And it's going to

1413
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 2: surprise y all because y'all didn't know I was going

1414
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 2: to do this. Okay, we have we have a thing, Jane,

1415
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 2: that's called the Bear Grease Hall of Fame, where we

1416
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 2: we we.

1417
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 1: We take this actually quite serious.

1418
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 2: It started a little bit as a kind of a

1419
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 2: funny thing, right, But these are all people that we've

1420
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 2: done stories on, not all of them. I mean, we've

1421
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 2: done hundreds of stories. But there's like twelve. Let's see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven.

1422
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 2: There are eleven people in the Hall of Fame. Some

1423
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 2: of our Hall of famers will be Daniel Boone, George mcjonkin,

1424
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 2: Roy Clark. Now Roy Clark is a plot man. This

1425
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 2: is not the singer Roy Clark. Yeah, the compass there,

1426
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 2: Davy Crockett, Wholt Collier. Some of these other guys are

1427
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 2: living guys. But we typically before we do a Hall

1428
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 2: of Fame induction for a person, we usually take a

1429
01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:41,439
Speaker 2: long time to think about it and talk about it.

1430
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: Yep, y'all know what I'm about to do.

1431
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 4: I do.

1432
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 3: I feel it coming.

1433
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 1: I want to. I want to.

1434
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:51,280
Speaker 2: I want to make a motion to nominate. Is she

1435
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:53,320
Speaker 2: to be in the Bear Grease Hall of Fame?

1436
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

1437
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 4: I will second that age.

1438
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 1: Can we can we get a raise of hands in

1439
01:17:57,960 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 1: favor of the issue being in the.

1440
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 2: Hall of famesoutely okay, without a doubt. Never before have

1441
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:06,719
Speaker 2: we so quickly put someone. But when this these stories

1442
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 2: started happening, I was like, she's in the Hall of Fame. Yeah,

1443
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 2: so we'll get a We'll get a little plaque made, yep,

1444
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:19,679
Speaker 2: and he'll be the thirteenth inductee on to the Bargers

1445
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame.

1446
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 3: Excellent.

1447
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and the guys that we put in.

1448
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 2: There, there's some level of character that's in those in

1449
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:34,639
Speaker 2: the every one of these people that stands out to us.

1450
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 4: It's not just accomplishment.

1451
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,680
Speaker 2: Not yeah, it's not it's not just accomplishment base, but

1452
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 2: there's a there's a component of character and that that's

1453
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 2: it's interesting. That's what you emphasized, and that to me,

1454
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:52,559
Speaker 2: that's what stands out about issue. Maybe it's the most

1455
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 2: it's the part of it that you wouldn't think would

1456
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 2: be most interesting, but probably is.

1457
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 3: Is how he he Yeah, he could have been just

1458
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 3: another story. I think if he hadn't been the person

1459
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 3: he was, you know, in the character of the man

1460
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 3: I think is what separates him. Yeah, it makes him

1461
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 3: such a unique part of that story.

1462
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1463
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:19,799
Speaker 2: Way before we uh, before we close down and we're

1464
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 2: we're in no hurry, I want to I want to

1465
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 2: talk to you about Fred Behar. All right, another one

1466
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 2: if you if you don't know Fred barre is, I

1467
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:31,599
Speaker 2: would imagine most people who listen to this podcast would,

1468
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 2: But Fred Bear is considered the father of.

1469
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 1: Modern bow hunting.

1470
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:40,519
Speaker 2: And uh, but to meet something, meet somebody that actually

1471
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: knew Fred Behar is pretty unique. But tell me how

1472
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:46,320
Speaker 2: you knew Fred and just kind of your impressions of him.

1473
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I've been a bull hunter all my life.

1474
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 3: You know, again I told you earlier. My first big

1475
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:53,719
Speaker 3: game animals were grasshoppers when I was six years old

1476
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 3: out in the cow pastor. So always been infatuated with

1477
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:02,519
Speaker 3: a bow and arrow growing up, turning on the TV

1478
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 3: and watching the American sportsman Fred Bair Glenn Saint Charles

1479
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 3: hunting British Columbia for grizzly bears the highlight of my life,

1480
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 3: you know, as a young person. And then I started

1481
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:17,919
Speaker 3: a retail business and archery retail business back in Columbus, Indiana,

1482
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 3: late seventies, and I was a bear dealer. So as

1483
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 3: a bear dealer, right, you get to go to shows.

1484
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 3: You get to go, you know, at that time, the

1485
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,719
Speaker 3: Shot Show. There wasn't an archery trade show at that time,

1486
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 3: so going to the Shot Show and I got to

1487
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 3: be introduced to Fred as a dealer. And Fred was

1488
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 3: such a humble man. You know, if you're a dealer,

1489
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 3: you're at the top of the pyramid in Fred's mind,

1490
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 3: because you know, you're the one out there, You're the

1491
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:48,960
Speaker 3: foot soldier out there bringing our sport to the people.

1492
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:53,439
Speaker 3: You're the top of the pyramid. And that's the way

1493
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 3: Fred treated you. So as a dealer, I had to

1494
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 3: meet him several times, going to shows several times, and

1495
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:01,320
Speaker 3: then you know, after a while, you kind of get

1496
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 3: to know each other and it becomes more of a

1497
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 3: you know, we weren't hunting buddies or anything like that,

1498
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 3: but you know we get to spend time and talk

1499
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:17,600
Speaker 3: and build a friendship. But such a humble man, you know,

1500
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 3: and every story you hear about Fred, you would think

1501
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,599
Speaker 3: maybe somebody of that stature, with the you know, all

1502
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 3: those accomplishments that Fred had, would have an ego. If

1503
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:29,400
Speaker 3: Fred had nothing close to an ego. And that's just

1504
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:31,720
Speaker 3: he would walk up to you, shake your hand, and

1505
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 3: he wanted to know about you. You know, what's your story,

1506
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 3: how are you doing? And that's that was Fred Bear.

1507
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 3: And I think without Fred, there were a lot of

1508
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:45,439
Speaker 3: people making archery equipment back in the thirties. You know,

1509
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 3: he started go back to issue is Issue brought Pope

1510
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 3: into archery. Pope brought Compton, Will Compton and our young

1511
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 3: and archery. Our young brought Fred Behar into archery. Fred

1512
01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:00,600
Speaker 3: Bear brought me into archery. So I look at it

1513
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:03,600
Speaker 3: like a family tree, you know. Fred Fred was you know,

1514
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:07,679
Speaker 3: uncle Fred to a lot of us, and I think

1515
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 3: his story is worthy of a deep dive.

1516
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've said it before, Fred Behar. We've got to

1517
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: do a bear grease at some point on Fred Bear.

1518
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 1: I mean he deserves that.

1519
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

1520
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 2: Look, you said something, and I want to talk about this.

1521
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:29,599
Speaker 2: You said that Fred was the best marketer of archery,

1522
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 2: maybe of all time.

1523
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:31,599
Speaker 3: Yep.

1524
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: And that could be taken as, oh, Fred was just

1525
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 2: a good businessman and charismatic, but you kind of looked

1526
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:44,640
Speaker 2: at it and I would too, as that marketing ability

1527
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 2: was actually really powerful, not just for the sport of archery,

1528
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 2: but for getting people on the bandwagon of modern hunting

1529
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 2: and conservation. So like, it took somebody that was really

1530
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:01,600
Speaker 2: good at mark and this is relevant today and this

1531
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:02,639
Speaker 2: is kind of where I'm going.

1532
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,720
Speaker 1: It took somebody like a Fred Bear, Like we're all

1533
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:11,960
Speaker 1: here today maybe maybe in large part because of a

1534
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:15,559
Speaker 1: Fred Bear that marketed this to the world.

1535
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 5: Right, And.

1536
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:20,640
Speaker 2: It wasn't just you said this, but it wasn't just

1537
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:22,759
Speaker 2: you said it on the podcast. It wasn't just about

1538
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:25,719
Speaker 2: making good archery equipment. He knew it had to be marketed.

1539
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:28,440
Speaker 3: Well, you go back, you know, he started Bear Products

1540
01:23:28,479 --> 01:23:31,679
Speaker 3: Company in nineteen thirty three in Detroit, and at that time,

1541
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 3: archery and bow hunting in particular was not a very

1542
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 3: big sport. You know, there might have been a few

1543
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 3: hundred people across the whole country that were hunting with

1544
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,719
Speaker 3: the bow and arrow. But he saw it his love

1545
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:45,400
Speaker 3: for the sport. He saw it as something that he

1546
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:47,640
Speaker 3: could bring to the masses and he could grow this.

1547
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 3: So it wasn't necessarily just to grow Bear archery. It

1548
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 3: was to grow the sport. And that's why all the

1549
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 3: patents that Fred ever put He got a lot of

1550
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 3: patents on archery equipment, he never enforced any of them.

1551
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:02,960
Speaker 3: Patented the boat quiver. Can you imagine how much royalties

1552
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:05,040
Speaker 3: he could have made off of enforcing the patent on

1553
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 3: the bulk uiver. But it was more important for him

1554
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:11,400
Speaker 3: to see that be used to grow the sport than

1555
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:14,920
Speaker 3: it was to make a dollar. And again, I think

1556
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 3: that goes back to character, you know, the character of

1557
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,920
Speaker 3: the man. He cared about building the sport that was

1558
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:24,479
Speaker 3: what was important to him, and that's bear archery will grow,

1559
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 3: but only because we're building a sport for it.

1560
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 1: Right, Okay.

1561
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:32,280
Speaker 2: The reason that's relevant today is that there's a group

1562
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 2: of people, it's a very small minority of people that

1563
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:41,640
Speaker 2: would say that modern hunting is over commercialized and is

1564
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 2: being marketed just for the sake of companies making money.

1565
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 2: Which there are plenty of companies that make money. Mediator

1566
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:53,559
Speaker 2: makes money, Bear archery makes money today, Matthew's archery. I mean,

1567
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 2: like companies do make money, so what they're in business for.

1568
01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 2: But their criticism is that we're promoting the sport of

1569
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 2: hunting for the sole purpose of making money. And there's

1570
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:11,080
Speaker 2: a whole bunch more people in hunting today because of

1571
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:15,680
Speaker 2: influencers and outdoor media than there would have been. And

1572
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:17,920
Speaker 2: I heard you say something before this, you said, oh,

1573
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:21,240
Speaker 2: there's always been those guys. I mean, basically, the opinion

1574
01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:23,880
Speaker 2: of these folks is that we should hunt and not

1575
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 2: talk about it. And in short, what I would say

1576
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 2: is that if we hunted and didn't talk about it,

1577
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 2: a generation from now, this whole thing would be dead.

1578
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:37,679
Speaker 3: It'd be gone. Yep.

1579
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 1: Is that do you believe that to be true.

1580
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:42,439
Speaker 3: Absolutely true. You know, I've been an active member of

1581
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 3: Popen Young. I'm a senior member of Popen Young. And

1582
01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 3: Fred was a big part of Popen Young. And Fred

1583
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,880
Speaker 3: was Bear Archery. You know, he was in the business.

1584
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 3: He was one of some people will say, you know

1585
01:25:56,040 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 3: that the commercialization of our sport has ruined our sport. Well,

1586
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 3: if that was true, Fred Bear would have been one

1587
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:05,160
Speaker 3: of the first guys commercializing our sport. He didn't ruin

1588
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 3: our sport. He built our sport. So in are you

1589
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 3: commercializing the sport for the sacrifice of the sport? Are

1590
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:16,680
Speaker 3: you commercializing to build the sport? Yeah, I'm going to

1591
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:19,679
Speaker 3: make a few dollars. Like I said, Fred made money

1592
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 3: with Bear Archery Company, and that was his livelihood from

1593
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:25,679
Speaker 3: nineteen thirty three until he passed away in nineteen eighty eight.

1594
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 3: But he didn't do it at the sacrifice of archery.

1595
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 3: He did it at the benefit of archery. And another

1596
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 3: quote I want to give here, and we talked about

1597
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 3: this earlier too. One of the people that crosspaths with

1598
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 3: in my life was the guy that started Muzzy Archery Company.

1599
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 3: John and John and I got to be friends over

1600
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 3: the years and John said something to me one day

1601
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 3: at a show, and he said, there's you know, there's

1602
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 3: some people who want to be something in archery, and

1603
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:53,599
Speaker 3: there's other people who want to do something for archery.

1604
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 3: And I thought, I sat down and I thought, Wow,

1605
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 3: that's really deep, you know, and I think that's where

1606
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 3: we're at. Are you doing what you're doing because you

1607
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:04,280
Speaker 3: want to do something for archery, right? Are you doing

1608
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 3: it because you want to be somebody in archery? Are

1609
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:09,200
Speaker 3: you're trying to be another thread bear? There'll never be

1610
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 3: another thread bear. Quit trying. It's not going to happen.

1611
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 3: You're just making a fool of yourself. But if you're

1612
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:18,360
Speaker 3: trying to do something for archery, hats off to you.

1613
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1614
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 2: And I think that's a powerful distinction because we have

1615
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 2: something today that we've never had before, which is social

1616
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:32,000
Speaker 2: media influencers, which is a whole different category of marketing

1617
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 2: that the world's never seen before. And so you could

1618
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 2: make the argument that there's a lot of people in

1619
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:38,800
Speaker 2: the hunting, not just bow hunting, but there are a

1620
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 2: lot of people in hunting that are trying to make

1621
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:46,280
Speaker 2: a name for themselves, and you could, you.

1622
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 3: Know, you can smell those people right away.

1623
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think you're right, and I think there's people

1624
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:55,760
Speaker 2: that would probably get some of them wrong too, you know,

1625
01:27:56,160 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 2: I mean, because I would, It's possible there would be.

1626
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of criticism of influencers.

1627
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 2: But my point about the hunting stuff is is that

1628
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:14,559
Speaker 2: our culture, I mean, in bicycling and ATV stuff, and

1629
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:19,000
Speaker 2: the equine world and the mule world, in sewing and knitting,

1630
01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 2: there are influencers and homemaking and cooking. I mean, our

1631
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:30,920
Speaker 2: culture has now social media influencers. Why wouldn't hunting have

1632
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:35,479
Speaker 2: social media influencers as well? But the motivation of them

1633
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 2: is everything, and they're bad apples there are. But I

1634
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:42,240
Speaker 2: just was thinking about I'm connecting all this kind of Yeah,

1635
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:44,240
Speaker 2: I'm kind of including you in a conversation you maybe

1636
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:45,080
Speaker 2: hadn't been in before.

1637
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:48,320
Speaker 1: But like those guys would criticize Fred Behar.

1638
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 3: If you think commercialization of our sport is bad, then

1639
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:54,599
Speaker 3: you criticizing people like Fred Bhar and Ben Pearson, right,

1640
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:57,759
Speaker 3: and you're wrong. Yeah, you know they commercialized our sport

1641
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 3: for the sake of our sport right now, the sake

1642
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 3: of their personal image or to be somebody important, right,

1643
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 3: They didn't cross their mind. Yeah yeah, it was just

1644
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 3: a byproduct of them building our sport.

1645
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's that's really interesting. Any closing thoughts, Joshua Bear.

1646
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:19,920
Speaker 4: I don't think so. Man, that's been great. I really

1647
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 4: enjoyed this series, and I enjoyed getting to spend time

1648
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,760
Speaker 4: with Jene man as a wealth of knowledge in that

1649
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 4: guy right there.

1650
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:27,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1651
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't thank you enough for coming to Arkansas

1652
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 2: and being willing to share your story. Anything we could

1653
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,519
Speaker 2: ever do for you that would be beneficial, I mean,

1654
01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 2: we'd do it.

1655
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:38,680
Speaker 1: I just thank you for I just.

1656
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:40,160
Speaker 3: Keep doing what you're doing. You know, I'm bringing the

1657
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 3: stories and bringing you know, sharing the history of our

1658
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:45,960
Speaker 3: sport and keeping the spirit alive with those people that

1659
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,559
Speaker 3: came before us. I think that's that's what motivates me.

1660
01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 3: So thank you for helping with that.

1661
01:29:51,439 --> 01:29:52,719
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1662
01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:56,240
Speaker 2: Well, all right, keep the wild places wild, because that's

1663
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 2: where the Bears live.