WEBVTT - Michael Pollan Changes His Mind 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.396 Pushkin Hey Slight Changers. Last week we aired an episode 0:00:32.516 --> 0:00:36.396 with renowned author and journalist Michael Pollan. It was all 0:00:36.436 --> 0:00:40.956 about consciousness, the concept of self, and how we perceive, feel, 0:00:41.156 --> 0:00:43.876 and make sense of the world around us. That was 0:00:43.916 --> 0:00:46.916 actually Michael's second time on A Slight Change of Plans. 0:00:47.396 --> 0:00:49.716 He first joined me a few years ago to talk 0:00:49.756 --> 0:00:53.836 about psychedelics and how they can shift our consciousness and 0:00:53.916 --> 0:00:58.356 help us find meaning in entirely new ways. These conversations 0:00:58.396 --> 0:01:01.596 are so linked in my mind. In fact, Michael said 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:04.596 that the seed for his new book was planted by 0:01:04.636 --> 0:01:09.396 his psychedelic exploration. So today we're sharing that episode with you. 0:01:09.796 --> 0:01:11.196 We really hope you enjoy it. 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:18.156 I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw myself 0:01:18.236 --> 0:01:21.316 kind of explode in this cloud of blue post it notes, 0:01:21.636 --> 0:01:24.396 you know, like confetti, and they came down to the 0:01:24.436 --> 0:01:26.956 ground and they kind of masked in this pool of 0:01:27.076 --> 0:01:31.116 blue paint, and that was me. I had complete acceptance 0:01:31.396 --> 0:01:34.716 that had I died and vanished, that was fine. It 0:01:34.796 --> 0:01:37.356 was what was meant to be. There was a continuing 0:01:37.476 --> 0:01:41.596 consciousness of some kind. I know it sounds crazy and 0:01:42.516 --> 0:01:43.796 very hard to put into words. 0:01:44.756 --> 0:01:48.396 That's renowned author Michael Pollan. He's talking about how a 0:01:48.436 --> 0:01:52.476 guided psychedelic trip on psilocybin, a molecule found in mushrooms, 0:01:52.756 --> 0:01:56.236 helped him see his mortality through an entirely new lens. 0:01:56.636 --> 0:01:59.676 This is a very non interventionist therapy. The therapists say 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:01.876 nothing during the experience except would you like a glass 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:04.116 of water or a snack or need to go to 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:08.396 the bathroom. It really they let your mind go where 0:02:08.396 --> 0:02:10.876 your mind wants to go. It is a kind of 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:13.196 self exploration, self healing. 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:19.516 On today's show, we hear from Michael Pollan about how 0:02:19.556 --> 0:02:23.636 plants have the power to change our minds. I'm Maya 0:02:23.676 --> 0:02:26.396 Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a 0:02:26.476 --> 0:02:28.876 show about who we are and who we become in 0:02:28.876 --> 0:02:44.196 the face of a big change. I'm fascinated by the 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:48.476 kinds of experiences that can drastically change our perspectives, and 0:02:48.556 --> 0:02:51.596 guided psychedelic trips have the potential to do just that. 0:02:52.236 --> 0:02:54.996 While psychedelics aren't legal in the US, they have been 0:02:55.076 --> 0:02:59.116 used in certain clinical trials and have delivered powerful therapeutic 0:02:59.116 --> 0:03:03.316 benefits for people struggling with things like addiction, depression, and 0:03:03.396 --> 0:03:07.476 existential distress. So what's happening to our brains under their 0:03:07.476 --> 0:03:11.916 influence that gives rise to these remarkable changes. Michael's written 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:14.996 two books that explore the answer to this question, How 0:03:14.996 --> 0:03:17.356 to Change Your Mind, and this is Your Mind on Plants. 0:03:18.316 --> 0:03:21.276 And so today we dig into the science of psychedelics. 0:03:21.996 --> 0:03:25.476 We started off by discussing the somewhat astonishing fact that 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:29.476 basically every culture in the world has discovered psychoactive plants. 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:33.836 They contain molecules that can alter human consciousness. We're talking 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:36.756 about the morphine and the opium poppy, and the caffeine 0:03:36.796 --> 0:03:39.676 and coffee and tea. Michael says, there are a few 0:03:39.716 --> 0:03:44.116 explanations for why we're so drawn to these substances. For starters, 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:46.676 they can provide pain, relief and stave off boredom. 0:03:47.396 --> 0:03:51.396 But then I think that there are more profound uses 0:03:51.436 --> 0:03:54.476 to which people have put these psychoactive plants. And I'm 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:56.676 talking here about the more powerful ones, the ones we 0:03:56.716 --> 0:04:02.236 call psychedelics, and that is for access to other realms, 0:04:02.756 --> 0:04:08.356 other dimensions of reality, and afterworld and underworld and religious visions, 0:04:08.436 --> 0:04:12.276 essentially mystical experiences that are at the heart of a 0:04:12.316 --> 0:04:15.916 great many religions. And it may well be that it 0:04:16.076 --> 0:04:20.556 was these psychedelic substances that opened up that way of thinking, 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:26.836 that gave people the visions that were interpreted in such 0:04:26.876 --> 0:04:29.636 a way as to underwrite whole religions. And we just 0:04:29.636 --> 0:04:33.956 think of the artists who were influenced by psychoactives, you know, 0:04:34.076 --> 0:04:38.516 new metaphors, new insights, or scientific discoveries. I mean, there's 0:04:38.516 --> 0:04:42.236 a great many scientific discoveries that trace to psychedelic use. 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:44.956 I think of it as the natural history of imagination. 0:04:45.636 --> 0:04:47.876 But it sure is interesting to think about. 0:04:48.236 --> 0:04:51.236 It is, and I mean it is striking to me that. 0:04:53.636 --> 0:04:57.716 It just appears like normal consciousness isn't enough for us humans, right, 0:04:57.716 --> 0:05:01.476 Like we're not sated by it. And look, there's obviously 0:05:01.596 --> 0:05:05.236 a continuum. And I fall closer to the risk averse. 0:05:05.556 --> 0:05:09.316 I'm more of a boring person who seems I feel well, 0:05:09.476 --> 0:05:12.596 totally fulfilled by my current realm of consciousness. I know 0:05:12.676 --> 0:05:16.556 lots of other people have a much more exploratory mindset. 0:05:16.596 --> 0:05:19.836 But it is striking that across all cultures there is 0:05:19.956 --> 0:05:25.316 some itch for something beyond our everyday conscious. 0:05:24.916 --> 0:05:28.396 Experience, and we seek transcendence. Of course, not just through drugs. 0:05:28.956 --> 0:05:32.396 Extreme sports and intense periods of physical activity can do 0:05:32.476 --> 0:05:35.196 it releasing drugs in the brain basically, I mean, we 0:05:35.196 --> 0:05:39.076 can drug ourselves in all sorts of ways. Fasting, does it, dance, 0:05:39.196 --> 0:05:43.476 ecstatic dance, rhythm, you know, drumming. I think the desire 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:47.196 for transcendence goes really deep, and it's interesting. I mean, 0:05:47.676 --> 0:05:52.596 do other creatures have it. We know that some other 0:05:52.676 --> 0:05:55.316 animals do like to change consciousness from their you know, 0:05:55.836 --> 0:06:00.916 their elephants love alcohol apparently, and apparently birds will you know, 0:06:01.036 --> 0:06:04.276 favor cannabis seeds over all different kinds seems to addle 0:06:04.316 --> 0:06:08.756 them a little bit. But transcendence, that idea that you 0:06:08.796 --> 0:06:13.236 know that there is another there is another realm of existence, 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:16.236 another way to be, is something that I think is 0:06:16.276 --> 0:06:17.436 a deep human desire. 0:06:18.116 --> 0:06:18.396 Yeah. 0:06:19.156 --> 0:06:20.956 I'm wondering, Michael, if you can give us a quick 0:06:20.996 --> 0:06:24.956 history lesson, because in recent years there's been a huge 0:06:24.996 --> 0:06:28.676 resurgence of interest in the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics for 0:06:28.796 --> 0:06:35.076 people with anxiety, depression, addiction, terminal illness. What's been responsible 0:06:35.116 --> 0:06:36.116 for this shift? 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:39.076 Well, you know, one of the big surprises in researching 0:06:39.116 --> 0:06:43.076 psychedelics was discovering how much research had been done during 0:06:43.116 --> 0:06:46.476 this period from the late forties through the mid sixties, 0:06:46.516 --> 0:06:51.076 and the fifties, it was a really vibrant field of research, 0:06:51.156 --> 0:06:55.516 with some very promising results using LSD and psilocybin to 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:59.076 treat alcoholism, end of life anxiety, things like that. It 0:06:59.116 --> 0:07:03.396 was completely respectable, and then the workstops in the late 0:07:03.476 --> 0:07:07.956 sixties early seventies, there is a tremendous backlash under President Nixon, 0:07:08.636 --> 0:07:11.116 and the culture kind of turns against them. There's a 0:07:11.156 --> 0:07:15.676 backlash and the media, which had been incredibly positive about 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:19.636 psychedelics turns on a dime, and so the research stops. 0:07:19.956 --> 0:07:23.836 The way it gets restarted is really a function of 0:07:23.876 --> 0:07:26.716 a couple things. One is, you have a group of 0:07:27.476 --> 0:07:31.556 psychiatrists therapists of other kinds who never lost faith in 0:07:31.636 --> 0:07:34.916 the fact that these were powerful therapeutic agents, and in fact, 0:07:34.996 --> 0:07:37.916 some of them were working with them underground, and people 0:07:37.956 --> 0:07:42.276 in that world started kind of plotting the return of psychedelics. 0:07:42.556 --> 0:07:45.596 And then in the early nineties they kind of got 0:07:45.636 --> 0:07:49.876 a signal from the FDA. There was a bureaucrat there 0:07:49.876 --> 0:07:52.676 in charge of drug development, and he basically sends a 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:56.276 signal to researchers that, look, we're going to just treat 0:07:56.476 --> 0:07:59.636 psychedelics like any other drug. If you've got a good experiment. 0:07:59.796 --> 0:08:01.956 If you've got a good indication, you think it's going 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:05.796 to be useful for we're not going to discriminate against it. 0:08:06.476 --> 0:08:11.996 The key moment, I think comes when Bob Jesse, who 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:15.476 is an interesting character. He's not a doctor or a therapist. 0:08:15.956 --> 0:08:20.316 He's a computer engineer at Oracle who had experiences with 0:08:20.356 --> 0:08:24.396 psychedelics that had convinced him of their value. And he 0:08:25.716 --> 0:08:28.676 reaches out to a man named Roland Griffith, who is 0:08:28.756 --> 0:08:32.916 a very well respected psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins, you know, 0:08:33.036 --> 0:08:36.636 the leading medical institution in the country, and they cook 0:08:36.716 --> 0:08:39.716 up this study and it's not a clinical study. It's 0:08:39.716 --> 0:08:42.236 not a therapeutic study at all. It's an effort to 0:08:42.276 --> 0:08:46.356 see whether you could induce a mystical type experience in 0:08:46.396 --> 0:08:49.996 someone with a high dose of psilocybin. Mystical type experience 0:08:50.036 --> 0:08:53.796 is something that Roland is personally very interested in, and 0:08:53.876 --> 0:08:56.716 they do this study that's published in two thousand and 0:08:56.756 --> 0:09:00.196 six and it's the craziest study. I mean, the title 0:09:00.276 --> 0:09:05.156 is something like psilocybin can occasion mystical type experience in healthy, 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:08.116 normal people, something like that. And for me to see 0:09:08.156 --> 0:09:11.476 these words miss stick experience in the pages of a 0:09:11.716 --> 0:09:14.156 medical journal. Was just so mind blowing. 0:09:15.436 --> 0:09:17.956 And what is the hallmark of a mystical experience? 0:09:18.516 --> 0:09:21.596 Good question. I had no idea, but it involves a 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:26.436 transcendence of space and time. Are euphoric feeling or feeling 0:09:26.436 --> 0:09:32.276 of intense well being, a dissolution of ego, followed by 0:09:32.316 --> 0:09:35.396 a sense of merging with something larger than yourself. You 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:38.716 feel connected to nature or other people or the universe 0:09:38.756 --> 0:09:43.396 of the divinity. And they found that of the two 0:09:43.436 --> 0:09:46.756 thirds of people who had this mystical experience, they reported 0:09:47.076 --> 0:09:49.996 enduring changes in their sense of well being going out 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:53.236 six weeks or eight weeks or something. And in a 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:57.156 follow up study they found that aspects of their personality, 0:09:57.716 --> 0:10:03.036 specifically openness, the trait of openness increased, And that's quite 0:10:03.076 --> 0:10:06.756 striking because in general the personality doesn't change in adults. 0:10:07.156 --> 0:10:11.596 So this study really is the foundation on which subsequent 0:10:11.676 --> 0:10:15.036 work has been done. And by looking at these results 0:10:15.036 --> 0:10:16.996 that there seemed to be an improvement and well being, 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:22.676 the idea occurred, well, we should try this with cancer patients. 0:10:23.316 --> 0:10:25.356 We should try this with people who have what the 0:10:26.116 --> 0:10:31.116 psychiatrists call existential distress over their diagnosis or the proximity 0:10:31.156 --> 0:10:34.836 of death, and that became the first clinical trial that 0:10:34.956 --> 0:10:37.156 the people at Hopkins did, and it was duplicated at 0:10:37.156 --> 0:10:38.196 the same time at NYU. 0:10:39.236 --> 0:10:39.476 Yeah. 0:10:39.516 --> 0:10:42.636 You know what's notable about some of these controlled studies 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:46.916 is that participants report that their guided experiences on psychedelics 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:50.676 are totally singular in nature, right, that they count among 0:10:51.196 --> 0:10:55.196 the top most meaningful experiences they've ever had. And I'd 0:10:55.196 --> 0:10:57.716 love to dig into the neuroscience just a bit so 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:01.676 we can understand what is giving rise to these exceptional 0:11:01.756 --> 0:11:02.676 subjective states. 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:05.716 Well, the honest answer is, we don't really know. We 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:10.196 have some really interesting hints. There's a lot more work 0:11:10.236 --> 0:11:14.436 to be done. A researcher in England named Robin Carhart 0:11:14.476 --> 0:11:18.836 Harris put people in an fMRI machine and injected them 0:11:18.876 --> 0:11:23.196 with psilocybin in one trial and LSD in another, and 0:11:23.556 --> 0:11:27.676 he found something very interesting. Where he expected to see 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:33.356 a kind of explosion of activity mirroring the extraordinary visual 0:11:33.396 --> 0:11:37.476 effects and emotional effects, he actually found the most notable 0:11:37.476 --> 0:11:40.716 thing was a quieting of activity in one particular network. 0:11:41.316 --> 0:11:43.396 And this network, which I had never heard of, is 0:11:43.596 --> 0:11:48.156 the default mode network. The default mode network is the 0:11:48.236 --> 0:11:50.356 part of your brain that's most active when you're not 0:11:50.436 --> 0:11:53.716 doing anything. It's where your brain goes. It's the default 0:11:53.756 --> 0:11:56.796 and it was discovered when they were doing fMRI tasks 0:11:56.796 --> 0:11:58.836 of other kinds and they had to get the baseline, 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:01.996 so they'd tell people don't do anything, don't think about anything, 0:12:02.436 --> 0:12:04.356 or try not to think about anything, just lie there, 0:12:04.636 --> 0:12:06.636 and it turns out their brains lit up and all 0:12:06.676 --> 0:12:08.436 sorts of stuff went on, and a lot of it 0:12:08.476 --> 0:12:15.076 involved self reflection, worry, rumination, thinking about the future, thinking 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:18.396 about the past. The default mode network seems to be 0:12:18.476 --> 0:12:22.756 involved with creating this projection or illusion that we have 0:12:22.796 --> 0:12:25.956 a self. It's involved in time travel, the ability to 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:28.236 think about the future and the past, which, if you 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:30.876 think about it, you need if you're going to have 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:33.356 a sense of self. Our sense of self is what's 0:12:33.396 --> 0:12:35.196 happened to us in the past and what we hope 0:12:35.196 --> 0:12:37.196 will happen in the future, or what we think might 0:12:37.236 --> 0:12:40.236 happen to us in the future. It's also involved in 0:12:40.276 --> 0:12:43.996 something called theory of mind. That's the ability to imagine 0:12:44.036 --> 0:12:47.076 the thoughts of other people, to understand that other people 0:12:47.156 --> 0:12:50.676 have thoughts, have a subjectivity, have an interiority. That's a 0:12:50.676 --> 0:12:56.236 big deal and it's involved in what's called the narrative self, 0:12:56.636 --> 0:13:00.836 the story we tell ourselves of who we are and 0:13:00.876 --> 0:13:03.276 how we take new events and kind of weave them 0:13:03.316 --> 0:13:07.196 into that narrative. So, you know, to the extent the 0:13:07.236 --> 0:13:09.876 self has an address in the brain, appears to be 0:13:09.996 --> 0:13:14.836 in this network. And this network gets very quiet under 0:13:14.876 --> 0:13:20.756 psychedelics and in the minds of very experienced meditators and 0:13:21.516 --> 0:13:26.276 you know Robin, then you know correlated reports of ego dissolution, 0:13:27.676 --> 0:13:32.396 and people can describe that it's quite a wild experience. 0:13:32.556 --> 0:13:36.396 You observe your sense of self completely melting or crumbling. 0:13:36.756 --> 0:13:40.756 I had it once happened to me when people reported 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:43.996 that they had the most precipitous drops in activity in 0:13:44.036 --> 0:13:46.556 the default mode network. So that's one of the findings 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:50.956 really of psychedelic science already. That is significant, I think 0:13:50.996 --> 0:13:54.076 for our understanding of consciousness and the self. But it's 0:13:54.076 --> 0:13:56.236 not the only theory of what's going on. There are 0:13:56.276 --> 0:13:59.076 people who aren't sold on the default mode. We're hoping 0:13:59.156 --> 0:14:02.876 to get some more precise answers to these questions. 0:14:03.676 --> 0:14:07.196 Yeah, I mean, in addition to, you know, some of 0:14:07.196 --> 0:14:12.396 the therapeutic effects. It is so compelling that this basic 0:14:12.476 --> 0:14:16.316 research can help us further understand what brain structures are 0:14:16.396 --> 0:14:17.876 associated with our sense of self. 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:24.356 Yeah, there's another area to investigate, too, is what psychedelics 0:14:24.436 --> 0:14:28.836 might teach us about the consciousness of children. You may 0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:30.276 know Alison Gopnik. 0:14:29.916 --> 0:14:33.156 Alison, Yes, I'm such a fan of hers. 0:14:32.556 --> 0:14:37.316 And she studies child consciousness and problem solving, and she's 0:14:37.436 --> 0:14:42.516 convinced that the psychedelic experience is as close as adults 0:14:42.556 --> 0:14:45.236 get to the mind of the child and the way 0:14:45.276 --> 0:14:47.596 of thinking and the kind of what she describes as 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:52.756 the lantern consciousness, as opposed to the spotlight consciousness of adults, 0:14:52.756 --> 0:14:56.236 which is very focused and linear. Children take in information 0:14:56.276 --> 0:14:58.916 from all different sides, which allows for a different kind 0:14:58.956 --> 0:15:03.156 of creativity. And she thinks that there's a retrogression in 0:15:03.236 --> 0:15:07.316 psychedelic consciousness that closely resembles that of children. So that's 0:15:07.356 --> 0:15:10.636 a whole other avenue of exploration that's very exciting. 0:15:10.956 --> 0:15:11.156 Yeah. 0:15:11.196 --> 0:15:14.156 I love her quote that babies and children are basically 0:15:14.156 --> 0:15:14.996 tripping all the time. 0:15:15.236 --> 0:15:18.356 Yes, what a lovely, colorful way of saying it. 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.956 And this was an insight she had when her granddaughter 0:15:22.076 --> 0:15:22.436 was born. 0:15:23.716 --> 0:15:25.476 I love that. Yeah. 0:15:25.556 --> 0:15:28.916 You know, you mentioned that you did have the experience 0:15:29.036 --> 0:15:31.556 of feeling your ego dissolved. And I know you did 0:15:31.556 --> 0:15:34.516 try psychedelics while you were writing your book. You say 0:15:34.516 --> 0:15:37.436 that you felt your sense of self scattered to the 0:15:37.476 --> 0:15:41.956 wind like a blizzard of post its. And I'm wondering, 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:44.276 can you just paint a scene of the many ways 0:15:44.276 --> 0:15:47.836 in which ego dissolution expressed itself during your trips. 0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:53.116 It was such an interesting, strange experience. I was really 0:15:53.116 --> 0:15:55.996 not prepared for it. So I had a fairly high 0:15:56.036 --> 0:16:01.036 dose psilocybin experience guided by an underground guide, somebody I 0:16:01.116 --> 0:16:04.036 really trusted. And I mentioned that because if you're going 0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:08.396 to let go to the extent of allowing your sense 0:16:08.396 --> 0:16:10.796 of self to completely vanished, you're going to have to 0:16:10.836 --> 0:16:13.516 feel very safe and very comfortable. And I did, you know, 0:16:13.636 --> 0:16:18.356 under her guidance and anyway, at a certain point, well 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:22.996 into the experience, she offered me what's called a booster dose, 0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:25.116 and I figured in for a dime, in for a dollar. 0:16:25.156 --> 0:16:27.356 I was doing this for my book, actually, and so 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:28.796 I said sure, and I ate. 0:16:28.756 --> 0:16:31.356 Another research purposes, strictly for. 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:34.436 Research purposes, you know, in the interest of my readers, 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:37.676 because it really was because I was although I was 0:16:37.756 --> 0:16:40.156 very curious, I was very afraid to do psychedelics. 0:16:40.356 --> 0:16:40.516 You know. 0:16:41.036 --> 0:16:43.076 I didn't do this till I was like in my 0:16:43.196 --> 0:16:47.476 late fifties, and I had a lot of fear of 0:16:47.796 --> 0:16:50.156 what could happen. I had read the stories of you know, 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.396 bad trips, and I didn't know what. Also, you can 0:16:53.476 --> 0:16:59.436 discover really unpleasant things about yourself and anyway, at this point, 0:16:59.796 --> 0:17:05.436 I suddenly saw myself from outside and I saw myself 0:17:05.516 --> 0:17:08.116 kind of explode in this cloud of post it notes, 0:17:08.236 --> 0:17:12.036 blue post it, you know, like confetti, and they came 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:14.356 down to the ground and they kind of masked in 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.596 this pool of blue paint. And that was me. And 0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:20.396 I was absolutely sure it was me, but I was 0:17:20.436 --> 0:17:24.076 perceiving it from this new perspective that I had never 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:27.556 experienced before. I don't know quite what it was. It 0:17:27.636 --> 0:17:33.476 wasn't me. It was very equable, disinterested. It had no 0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:36.716 problem with what had happened. I didn't feel threatened in 0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:40.196 any way. And that was me. I was gone and 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:43.556 that was fine, But I was still aware. And it 0:17:43.596 --> 0:17:46.396 was the first time it ever occurred to me that 0:17:46.516 --> 0:17:51.076 you could have awareness without self, which is something Buddhists 0:17:51.116 --> 0:17:53.396 and Hindus will tell you about. But you know that 0:17:53.476 --> 0:17:57.756 seemed very far from my experience. And then what happens 0:17:57.756 --> 0:18:02.116 when you don't have a self is that you merge 0:18:02.316 --> 0:18:06.476 with everything around you. And in this case, what I 0:18:06.596 --> 0:18:13.356 merged with was a piece of music. And she put 0:18:13.356 --> 0:18:16.396 on Bach's Unaccompanied Cello Suite number two in D minor, 0:18:16.436 --> 0:18:17.956 which is a very sad piece of music. 0:18:18.236 --> 0:18:18.956 So gorgeous. 0:18:19.316 --> 0:18:22.076 Yeah, and I and I became one with the music. 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:29.876 It was complete merging and it was incredibly beautiful. It's 0:18:29.876 --> 0:18:32.716 the most profound experience of music I'd ever had. And 0:18:32.796 --> 0:18:36.396 I felt as though the bow, the horsehair of the bow, 0:18:36.556 --> 0:18:38.756 was going over my body. And then at one point 0:18:38.796 --> 0:18:42.516 that I was inside the well of this, you know, 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:48.836 this wooden container, and it was so beautiful. And although 0:18:48.876 --> 0:18:52.236 it was very sad, I wouldn't call it a happy experience. 0:18:52.236 --> 0:18:54.356 It was very sad. It was all about death. I 0:18:54.356 --> 0:18:56.276 mean that the piece of music. To me, it was 0:18:56.316 --> 0:19:06.996 all about death. But I was completely I had complete 0:19:06.996 --> 0:19:10.756 acceptance that had I died, I had and vanished. That 0:19:10.916 --> 0:19:14.196 was fine, it was what was meant to be. Something 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:17.196 followed on that death of the self. There was a 0:19:17.236 --> 0:19:21.156 continuing consciousness of some kind. I know it sounds crazy 0:19:22.076 --> 0:19:25.956 and very hard, to put into words. I struggled to 0:19:25.996 --> 0:19:28.236 describe it in the book, but it was one of 0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:30.916 the most profound experiences of my life. 0:19:30.956 --> 0:19:34.956 The struggle you're having putting your experience into words is 0:19:35.276 --> 0:19:39.036 very characteristic of how many people feel after a trip. 0:19:39.116 --> 0:19:40.996 Right They're saying, this is one of the most profound 0:19:40.996 --> 0:19:43.516 experiences of my life, and yet when they try and 0:19:43.556 --> 0:19:47.596 express it in words, it sounds cliche, new ag. You know, 0:19:47.796 --> 0:19:49.516 everything is love, that sort of thing. 0:19:50.196 --> 0:19:50.716 It's interesting. 0:19:50.916 --> 0:19:54.076 I was interviewing Casey Musgraves, the country music singer and 0:19:54.156 --> 0:19:56.356 a previous episode of A Slight Change of Plans about 0:19:56.356 --> 0:19:59.916 her psychedelic trip, and I was actually asking whether the 0:19:59.996 --> 0:20:03.676 ability to create music in some way was an antidote 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:08.196 to her inability to fully express the profound insights that 0:20:08.236 --> 0:20:10.436 she had had using the words that we have at 0:20:10.476 --> 0:20:11.196 our disposal. 0:20:12.196 --> 0:20:14.996 Well, you know, you've just reminded me of one of 0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:18.116 the other of the eight characteristics of mystical experience, and 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:22.636 that's ineffability, the fact that these are very hard to 0:20:22.676 --> 0:20:26.436 describe because it kind of defies the language we have. 0:20:26.876 --> 0:20:29.876 Our language wasn't built to describe these kinds of experiences. 0:20:30.276 --> 0:20:33.276 And the other thing that you alluded to is that 0:20:33.356 --> 0:20:38.796 there is a tremendous banality to some of the insights, 0:20:38.876 --> 0:20:42.076 the profound insights that people have, such as love is 0:20:42.116 --> 0:20:45.596 the most important principle in the universe. You know, that 0:20:45.756 --> 0:20:48.516 is banal, but it's also profound. And one of the 0:20:48.516 --> 0:20:50.796 things you come out of the experience realizing is that 0:20:50.876 --> 0:20:54.836 it's a very fine line between banality and profundity. And 0:20:54.916 --> 0:20:57.316 one of the things psychedelics does is it takes all 0:20:57.396 --> 0:21:01.036 that ironic crust we cover the world with and it 0:21:01.356 --> 0:21:05.876 scrapes it off really effectively, and suddenly things appear with 0:21:06.076 --> 0:21:10.396 the profundity and beauty of for site, I mean, awe 0:21:11.076 --> 0:21:14.076 at the at the ordinary is a really you know, 0:21:14.116 --> 0:21:17.836 a piece of music, a flower, I mean, And and 0:21:17.876 --> 0:21:20.076 that's another way in which I think you're recovering the 0:21:20.076 --> 0:21:23.436 mind of the child. And that's a wonderful aspect of 0:21:23.996 --> 0:21:25.236 psychedelic experience. 0:21:30.036 --> 0:21:31.996 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:21:32.036 --> 0:21:43.996 of plants. I'm talking with Michael Polland about how psychedelics 0:21:43.996 --> 0:21:46.996 can change our minds. I wanted to hear more about 0:21:47.036 --> 0:21:50.836 the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics. Studies show that when they're 0:21:50.876 --> 0:21:54.196 administered in guided clinical settings. They can help with a 0:21:54.236 --> 0:21:59.276 surprisingly vast number of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, 0:21:59.476 --> 0:22:02.076 obsessive compulsive disorder, and fear of death. 0:22:02.916 --> 0:22:07.436 Now, I was initially kind of suspicious of of the 0:22:07.836 --> 0:22:09.996 you know, is this is this some sort of panacea. 0:22:10.036 --> 0:22:12.516 It's being used for all these different things. And I 0:22:12.516 --> 0:22:16.556 remember interviewing Tom Insul, a psychiatrist's former head of the 0:22:16.636 --> 0:22:19.556 National Institute of Mental Health, and I said, isn't this 0:22:19.556 --> 0:22:22.276 a little weird that all these different indications are responding 0:22:22.316 --> 0:22:25.156 to the same kind of treatment, And he said, well, 0:22:26.076 --> 0:22:28.876 you're assuming that they're all different, you know, indications. They 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:31.476 may be symptoms of a similar brain. And that is 0:22:31.516 --> 0:22:34.716 that a brain that's overly rigid and it's thinking that's 0:22:34.796 --> 0:22:40.836 trapped in patterns of rumination. And indeed, all those things depression, anxiety, obsession, 0:22:41.116 --> 0:22:47.516 addiction represent people stuck in loops of destructive thought and behavior, 0:22:48.156 --> 0:22:51.356 and that what psychedelics may do is help you break 0:22:51.396 --> 0:22:51.916 out of that. 0:22:52.236 --> 0:22:55.676 I mean, certainly that's consonant with the use of SSRI's 0:22:55.716 --> 0:23:01.436 selective search on and reuptic conhibitors, Right, yeah, OCDA, anxiety, depression, 0:23:01.516 --> 0:23:05.476 et cetera. So it would be very reasonable to expect 0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:07.636 that what Tom is saying applies in this case. 0:23:07.916 --> 0:23:08.876 I'm wondering if you can. 0:23:08.836 --> 0:23:12.996 Share some examples of the therapeutic benefits that can be conferred 0:23:12.996 --> 0:23:17.276 by psychedelics, in particular people who are facing what you've 0:23:17.276 --> 0:23:20.636 referred to as existential distress. Yeah. 0:23:20.716 --> 0:23:22.796 Well, the first group of patients I talked to were 0:23:22.876 --> 0:23:25.596 cancer patients, and I interviewed quite a few of them. 0:23:25.956 --> 0:23:28.516 Patrick Metis is someone I wrote about in detail in 0:23:28.556 --> 0:23:31.036 the book. I'd never met him, he had died already, 0:23:31.396 --> 0:23:33.036 but I spent a lot of time with his wife 0:23:33.116 --> 0:23:35.796 and his therapist and learning about his story and reading 0:23:35.836 --> 0:23:39.156 his account. And he was a man, he was about 0:23:39.196 --> 0:23:42.196 my age at the time, and a journalist like me also, 0:23:42.356 --> 0:23:46.036 who had gotten cancer of the bile ducts. And his 0:23:46.076 --> 0:23:49.196 wife noticed the whites of his eyes that turned very yellow, 0:23:49.876 --> 0:23:53.676 and he was given a terminal diagnosis and struggled with 0:23:53.756 --> 0:23:56.516 that for a long time and was really paralyzed by it. 0:23:57.036 --> 0:23:59.716 He read about this experiment going on at NYU he 0:23:59.756 --> 0:24:04.076 was in New York, and he decided to enroll in 0:24:04.116 --> 0:24:06.836 this drug trial to see if this could help him 0:24:06.876 --> 0:24:10.316 with his anxiety and depression. His wife actually was against 0:24:10.356 --> 0:24:13.236 it because to her. It represented giving up, but he 0:24:13.276 --> 0:24:16.236 had no intention of doing that. He was continuing with 0:24:16.316 --> 0:24:19.556 his at least for a while with his chemo after 0:24:19.596 --> 0:24:22.956 the experience. And he did it, and he had a 0:24:22.996 --> 0:24:25.876 mystical experience. It was very profound. He described it in 0:24:25.916 --> 0:24:30.676 great detail. He explored his body and visited his cancer. 0:24:30.756 --> 0:24:33.716 He saw it, and at one moment he climbed a 0:24:33.876 --> 0:24:36.316 kind of precipice in his mind and he looks out 0:24:36.356 --> 0:24:40.556