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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. My name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 1: It is Saturday, and in this classic episode, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be discussing lightning, struck Wood, and the Rowan. This

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Speaker 1: originally published twelve ten, twenty twenty four. Let's dive right in.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And hey everybody, I got

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Speaker 3: to apologize right here at the start for my voice

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Speaker 3: and my brain. Possibly today I am wrestling a pretty

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Speaker 3: nasty cold, but we're plowing right through. And today we're

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Speaker 3: going to be talking about a topic. We're actually returning

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Speaker 3: to a topic we talked about a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 3: the subject of sake trees. In that previous episode, Rob,

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Speaker 3: you talked about the giants Equoia of western North America,

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Speaker 3: arguably the largest tree in the world depending on how

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Speaker 3: you measure, and we talked about the history of how

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Speaker 3: people regarded these massive plants with reverence. And I ended

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Speaker 3: up talking about the Ohea, the Hua tree of Hawaii

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Speaker 3: and a lot of interesting, beautiful ways that it interlocks

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Speaker 3: with Hawaiian religion and traditional practices. In some cases it's

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Speaker 3: the physical embodiment of a god. In other cases it's

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Speaker 3: like a tree beloved by the gods in storytelling and

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Speaker 3: so forth. But when we were researching that episode, we thought, man,

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Speaker 3: there are so many interesting angles on sacred trees that

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Speaker 3: we could come back to. So that's what we're doing today.

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Speaker 3: Here's a new installment. I'm sure this is something we'll

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Speaker 3: probably return to again in the future.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a good month for it, since we're

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Speaker 1: into December here, and a lot of December holiday traditions

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Speaker 1: center around a sacred tree. I guess one of the

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Speaker 1: things I think we both encountered it in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: especially in this episode. It's the thing about sacred trees

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Speaker 1: is that it's never just a case of like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's this tree around and at one point

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Speaker 1: there's a group of people that thought it was sacred

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Speaker 1: and then they stopped. You know, No, the trees have

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Speaker 1: been around a long time, and human cultures enter into

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Speaker 1: these areas where these trees grow, develop these ideas about them,

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Speaker 1: and build upon those ideas, pass them down, and the

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Speaker 1: trees remain and So you start pulling the threads on

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Speaker 1: some of these beliefs, and you know, those threads connect

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Speaker 1: across different peoples, you know, into neighboring territories, and oftentimes

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Speaker 1: there is far flung as a particular you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the range of a tree species itself. So before long

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Speaker 1: you realize, oh, well, this isn't necessarily just a look

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Speaker 1: at one particular tree and or one particular folk belief

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Speaker 1: or mythology, but you can easily touch upon like a

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Speaker 1: dozen different folk beliefs and mythologies concerning the same tree.

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Speaker 2: M h.

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Speaker 1: Which is to say, we're not going to pull all

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Speaker 1: We're not going to pull all those those threads today.

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Speaker 1: We're going to pull some of those threads, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to find some, I think, some very tantalizing, very

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Speaker 1: interesting things to say about a couple of different topics

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Speaker 1: related to sacred trees.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So to kick things off today, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to explore something interesting I came across in a book.

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Speaker 3: The book is called European Paganism The Realities of cult

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Speaker 3: from Antiquity to the Middle Ages, originally published in the

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Speaker 3: year two thousand. I think the edition I was reading

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Speaker 3: was from maybe twenty thirteen, but from Rutledge Press by

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Speaker 3: an author named Ken Dowden, who was a professor of

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Speaker 3: classics at the University of Birmingham in the UK. This

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Speaker 3: is a book about the religious practices of European cultures

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Speaker 3: before the introduction of Christianity, and then also those pagan

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Speaker 3: religions interacting with Christianity once it was introduced. And these

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Speaker 3: religious beliefs and practices were, of course not all the same,

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Speaker 3: though there are some themes that kind of emerge repeatedly,

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Speaker 3: so you can kind of make some rough generalizations about

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Speaker 3: pre Christian European paganism, but they don't apply in every case.

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Speaker 3: And one is that a lot of pre Christian European

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Speaker 3: religions saw sacred dimensions in the features of the physical land,

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Speaker 3: like rocks, waters, and of course trees. But there are

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Speaker 3: many different ways to understand the sacredness of trees. Now

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Speaker 3: down and actually begins this section of the book with

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Speaker 3: an ancient passage describing something that's a little bit of field,

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Speaker 3: but I thought it was so interesting I wanted to

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Speaker 3: throw it in here. It's describing one way of showing

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Speaker 3: appreciation for trees that's kind of hard to classify. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't seem exactly right to call it a religious practice,

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Speaker 3: but it definitely goes beyond, like, Oh, look at the poplars,

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Speaker 3: they're so nice. This is a translated passage from Plenty

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Speaker 3: of the Elder that reads as follows. On a hill

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Speaker 3: called Corna in the suburban part of the land of Tusculum,

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Speaker 3: there is a grove in a ancient reverence dedicated by

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Speaker 3: Latium to Diana. And that would be by the way Diana,

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Speaker 3: goddess of the hunt of wild animals in the moon,

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Speaker 3: sort of a wilderness goddess. The ranger of the party

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Speaker 3: Plenty goes on. The foliage of the beech forest is sheared,

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Speaker 3: as though by topiary. In it. An exceptional tree was

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Speaker 3: loved in our times by Passienus Crispus twice Console, the orator,

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Speaker 3: later more famous thanks to his marriage with Agrippina, through

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Speaker 3: which he became the stepfather of Nero. He was in

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Speaker 3: the habit of kissing and embracing it. Talking about the

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Speaker 3: tree kissing and embracing it, not only of lying under

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Speaker 3: it and pouring wine over it.

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Speaker 1: Literal tree hugging here.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So this tree is interesting in the example here

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Speaker 3: because it is in one sense a literal sacred tree.

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Speaker 3: In a religious sense, it's part of an ancient sacred grove.

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Speaker 3: And I guess one thing we could talk about is

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Speaker 3: a distinction between sacred trees, as in, like a type

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Speaker 3: of tree or a tree species has a religious significance

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Speaker 3: within a particular culture, versus an individual tree like this

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Speaker 3: tree right here has religious significance of some kind, versus

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Speaker 3: a collection of trees have some kind of religious significance,

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Speaker 3: a sort of expanded version of this tree right here,

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Speaker 3: this forest right here has significance. And there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of those in pre Christian European religions, sacred groves,

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Speaker 3: sacred forests throughout the continent. But so in this case,

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Speaker 3: it is a particular sacred grove, a forest of beech

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Speaker 3: trees that are in honor of the goddess Diana. So

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Speaker 3: these are the trees of Diana, the goddess of the hunt.

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Speaker 3: But this Roman politician isn't necessarily worshiping Diana. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he is, but it's not discussed in the passage here.

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Speaker 3: He's not just honoring the sacred forest as a whole

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Speaker 3: in its relation to the goddess Diana. It sounds like

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Speaker 3: he is in erotic love with one particular, very special tree.

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Speaker 3: Hard to think of a parallel to this, I just

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Speaker 3: thought I thought it worth mentioning. But anyway, From here,

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Speaker 3: Doubtan goes on to a section where he sort of

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Speaker 3: thinks about the implicit logic of our relationship to trees,

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Speaker 3: especially in our desire to think of them as persons,

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Speaker 3: as like a symbol of a person, or as containing

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Speaker 3: the essence of a divine person, and he notes an

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Speaker 3: interesting parallel between trees and humans which has been observed

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Speaker 3: by a number of scholars of religion. It's not unique

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Speaker 3: to this book, and that parallel is in the form

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Speaker 3: of posture. Humans are mostly unique in the animal world

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Speaker 3: for our verticality. What appears to physically differentiate humans from

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Speaker 3: other animals is that we are a column a standing

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Speaker 3: straight up, compared to most other animals, which tend to

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Speaker 3: position their bodies in a more horizontal fashion. You can

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Speaker 3: think of a few little counter examples here and there,

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Speaker 3: but for the most part this does really hold true.

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Speaker 3: Humans appear to be different from all other animals in

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Speaker 3: that we stand straight up. And what makes a tree

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Speaker 3: different from a bush or a shrub or lots of

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Speaker 3: other plants. Is that it is also a tall vertical column.

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Speaker 3: So it's true of both trees and humans that we

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Speaker 3: take the form of a vertical column. We grow taller

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Speaker 3: as we age, and when we die, we fall down.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So with this kind of knowledge just sort of

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Speaker 3: operating in our minds all the time, it seems very

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Speaker 3: natural to think of the tree as the sort of

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Speaker 3: human analog within the alien kingdom of plant life, except,

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Speaker 3: of course, trees grow much larger than humans, and are

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Speaker 3: much tougher than humans, and often live for hundreds of years,

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Speaker 3: so in a sense, you can think of them as

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Speaker 3: something that has always been here. So it's I think

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Speaker 3: quite natural to start thinking of them as like superhuman

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Speaker 3: super persons. They are gods.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, these are great points. Yeah, it stands tall

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Speaker 1: like a human, it has the verticality, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: lives before and after us and on this different time

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Speaker 1: scale than we are.

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Speaker 3: So that's just sort of one theory as to why

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Speaker 3: we're sort of primed to see godhood in the form

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Speaker 3: of trees. But Doubtin also emphasizes that many trees are

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Speaker 3: integrated into religion, not simply by their nature, not by

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Speaker 3: being trees, but in a specific sense, by being connected

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Speaker 3: directly to myth or to history, as in like this

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Speaker 3: plane tree at Delphi was planted by Agamemnon and that's

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Speaker 3: why it's special. Or when Io was transformed into a

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Speaker 3: cow by Hera and tied to a tree, it was

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Speaker 3: this olive tree right here. Or this tree was the

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Speaker 3: source of heracles first oak leaf crown, or this tree

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Speaker 3: is where Helen of Troy was hanged after she fled

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Speaker 3: to roads. So in those cases you might say that

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Speaker 3: these physical existing trees are sacralized by way of intersections

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Speaker 3: with stories, and whether those are like sort of founding

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Speaker 3: ethnic stories, like founding histories of a people or a nation,

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Speaker 3: or myths about the gods. On one hand, you have

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Speaker 3: a physical object that is right here, right now, this

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Speaker 3: tree we're all looking at, And on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: you have the story we all know. And so by

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Speaker 3: connecting the to the tree, the physical object makes the

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Speaker 3: story more real, and the story makes the physical object

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Speaker 3: more meaningful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like eventually we'll come around to talking about

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Speaker 1: the body tree in this series. The Bodhi tree, of course,

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Speaker 1: in Buddhist traditions, is the tree under which the Buddhist

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Speaker 1: sat when he attained enlightenment. You know, it is the

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Speaker 1: place where it happened. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. We see

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Speaker 1: versions of that in various different myths and religions.

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Speaker 3: But one example I really wanted to focus sun for

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Speaker 3: a minute because I thought it was so interesting, was

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Speaker 3: something Dowdin brings up in this chapter. That is the

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Speaker 3: idea of a sacred tree struck by lightning. Dowtan writes

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Speaker 3: that the ancient Romans had a practice of enclosing a

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Speaker 3: tree after it was struck by lightning, so like after

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Speaker 3: a tree was hit by lightning, that it would be

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Speaker 3: subject to a type of sacrificial or religious immurement. The

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Speaker 3: enclosure for a tree would sometimes be what this author

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Speaker 3: identifies as a puteal put el pleural would be putealia,

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Speaker 3: which usually refers to a well head. So this would

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Speaker 3: be the raised stone structure around the opening of a

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Speaker 3: water well. Now, in the case of a water well,

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Speaker 3: usually you have a wellhead raised in part to prevent

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Speaker 3: the well from simply being a hole in the ground

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Speaker 3: that people can fall into. You know, it's like a

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Speaker 3: wall for safety. In ancient Rome, these well heads were

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Speaker 3: often made of marble and decorated with carvings or with

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Speaker 3: bas relief. I've got a picture from from a well

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Speaker 3: headed venice for you to look at here, Rob, so

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Speaker 3: you can see, you know, it's a there's a cap

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Speaker 3: on it right now. I think it's a it's an

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Speaker 3: iron cap. I don't know what the original material of

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Speaker 3: the cap would have been, possibly iron, you know, hundreds

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Speaker 3: of years ago or thousands of years ago as well.

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Speaker 3: But in this case, you know, you could open it

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Speaker 3: up and imagine looking down into the well, but then

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Speaker 3: down on the wall around it, we've got I don't know,

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Speaker 3: some kind of creepy dancing god babies who are thrown

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Speaker 3: around some what do you what do you think that is?

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Speaker 3: Is that grape leaves or olives or something?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, some sort of like wreaths and leaves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. But as Dowdan says in this chapter, sometimes

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Speaker 3: a poute al would be built not around a water well,

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Speaker 3: but around a tree or really any spot that had

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Speaker 3: been touched by a bolt of lightning. So a lightning

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Speaker 3: kissed location like this was called in Roman times a dental.

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Speaker 3: And I was reading about this in an older source

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Speaker 3: from the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities by William

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Speaker 3: Smith from the nineteenth century. This reference book goes into

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Speaker 3: sources from ancient history describing what the bidental was and

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Speaker 3: what its religious significance was. And so it says that

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Speaker 3: the Bidental was named after the fact that you would

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Speaker 3: sacrifice a sheep here after lightning struck. It would be

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Speaker 3: a two year old sheep called a biden, which means

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Speaker 3: two tooth by DN like dental, and the sequence would

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Speaker 3: go like this. So lightning strikes somewhere and people witness it,

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Speaker 3: and whatever was struck, be that a tree or a

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Speaker 3: person or just the earth, whatever is there is buried,

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Speaker 3: in some cases burned, in other cases not burned, but

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Speaker 3: is buried by priests in the ground in that very spot.

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Speaker 3: So if you get struck by lightning and killed in

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Speaker 3: a rome where these bidental priests are operating, you are

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Speaker 3: not Your body is not transported to a cemetery and

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Speaker 3: is not cremated. You are buried in the spot where

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Speaker 3: you fell. And then the two year old sheep is

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Speaker 3: sacrificed and added to the lot. And then that spot

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Speaker 3: is in some sense sort of walled off from human contact.

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Speaker 3: It is capped with an altar and then enclosed in

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Speaker 3: some way by a fence or in some cases by

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Speaker 3: a poutel a marble wellhead, and thereafter it is made taboo.

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Speaker 3: No one may walk there, no one may touch it,

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Speaker 3: no one may even look at it. And if a

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Speaker 3: person were to violate this taboo, like to remove the

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Speaker 3: well head or the altar, or in some other way

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Speaker 3: violate the prohibition against treading there, they would be subject

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Speaker 3: to swift, violent punishment by the gods, and this connects

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Speaker 3: to the original action there. Lightning was often thought to

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Speaker 3: be the weapon of the god. It's an ancient Rome,

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Speaker 3: particularly of Jupiter, so a place struck by lightning was

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Speaker 3: both terrifying and holy. It was a sacred point of

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Speaker 3: connection with divine power and a conduit of divine wrath.

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Speaker 3: So as one example of a puteal which may once

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Speaker 3: have covered a tree made wholly by lightning, Dowdin mentions

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Speaker 3: a fig tree attested in ancient sources in the area

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Speaker 3: of the Committium of Rome. The committium is an ancient

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Speaker 3: public meeting space in the city center, and this fig

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Speaker 3: tree was known as the Ficus romanaalis, which literally means

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Speaker 3: the ficus of suckling. Though experts apparently debate whether that's

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Speaker 3: its original meaning or how it should be understood. But

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Speaker 3: there are actually a couple of sacred objects said to

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Speaker 3: be in the vicinity here. One thing is this tree

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Speaker 3: the ficus room analyis. But there is also a stone

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Speaker 3: which was said to have been cut in half with

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Speaker 3: a razor by the ancient Roman augur Attus Navius, and

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Speaker 3: the story goes that he cut the stone in half

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Speaker 3: in a display of his powers when he is in

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Speaker 3: the middle of rebuking a legendary king of Rome who

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Speaker 3: was sort of arrogantly trying to expand his own glorification

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Speaker 3: at Us. Navius was rebuking him and saying, like you

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Speaker 3: go to far king, And in their conflict, he's like,

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Speaker 3: I better show how strong my divinatory skills are and

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Speaker 3: the kind of power I can command. So I'm going

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Speaker 3: to cut a stone, cut a wet stone in half

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Speaker 3: of a razor.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, I guess it worked.

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Speaker 3: It did, according to the story. So you've got this

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Speaker 3: split stone here, and then you've got the Ficus tree.

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Speaker 3: And here Doubdan again quotes a passage from Plenty of

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Speaker 3: the Elder describing the site of the tree and the

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Speaker 3: sliced rock. So Plenty in translation rights, a fig tree

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Speaker 3: growing in the actual Forum and Committium of Rome is

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Speaker 3: revered sacred because of the lightning bolts buried there, and

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Speaker 3: still more to commemorate the fig tree under which the

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Speaker 3: nurse of Romulus and Remus first sheltered those founders of

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Speaker 3: empire at the lupercal. It is called ruminalis because it

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Speaker 3: was beneath it that they found the she wolf offering

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Speaker 3: her RuMIS. That is what they used to call abreast

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Speaker 3: to her babies, a miracle commemorated nearby in bronze, as

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Speaker 3: though the wolf had of her own accord crossed the

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Speaker 3: Committeum while Adis Navius was acting in his role as Auger.

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Speaker 3: Nor is it without significance when it dries up and must,

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Speaker 3: through the efforts of the priests, be replaced. So I

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Speaker 3: thought this was interesting in that the way Plenty tells

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Speaker 3: the story, the way he understands it, at least this

303
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 3: fig tree is in part sacred because of an intersection

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Speaker 3: with legend, like we mentioned earlier. So you know, much

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Speaker 3: like you might say this tree was planted by Agamemnon,

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Speaker 3: in this case you would say this tree is the

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Speaker 3: site where Romula and Remus were nursed by wolf Mother,

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Speaker 3: and then also by proximity to the site where Adis

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Speaker 3: Navius split the stone. That's another connect intersection with legend.

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Speaker 3: But then according to Plenty, it's also sacred because lightning

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Speaker 3: bolts are buried beneath it. And then here Dowban also

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Speaker 3: mentions a possible connection of the legend of the ficus

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Speaker 3: from Analys to the interesting sort of botanical fact that

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Speaker 3: the fig tree produces a sap like secretion, which I

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Speaker 3: believe is part of an anti predator strategy that is

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Speaker 3: said to look like milk. So, like you, if you

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Speaker 3: wound a fig tree, the ficus will we'll leak out

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Speaker 3: this white milky substance that is said to be quite

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Speaker 3: bitter and I think is supposed to deter things from

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Speaker 3: munching on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we used to have a fig tree, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can attest to.

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Speaker 3: This, And so Dowbdan's saying, you know, so you have

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Speaker 3: a place where, according to these ancient texts, you have

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Speaker 3: a stone which is interesting because of its shape it's

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Speaker 3: like a split stone. And then you also have a

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Speaker 3: tree which has interesting sort of biological features. This tree

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Speaker 3: appears to leak milk and then can be kind of

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Speaker 3: attached to myths, and so he writes, quote the tree

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Speaker 3: is tended and when necessary renewed by the priests. If

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Speaker 3: it is surrounded by a puute al, then originally this

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Speaker 3: may have been understood as a place where lightning had struck.

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Speaker 3: And the wet stone, that's the stone that was apparently

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Speaker 3: split in the story. The wetstone might have been considered

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Speaker 3: a thunderstone.

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Speaker 1: Wow, this is all really fascinating and fascinating to me,

337
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 1: especially when you think about the idea that, like the

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Speaker 1: world tree in myth is often situated as this thing

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Speaker 1: that connects Earth to the heavens and lightning as well.

340
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Speaker 1: Is this momentary connection between Earth and heaven that leaves

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Speaker 1: like a physical sign. You know, we see it and

342
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,640
Speaker 1: then we can if we can find where it hit.

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Speaker 1: We have evidence this contact between like a lightning and

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Speaker 1: the earth, between storm clouds and the earth, but on

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Speaker 1: another level, between the divine and the mundane world totally.

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Speaker 3: And you know, one thing I like is the kind

347
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 3: of ambiguity of the is this good magic or bad magic?

348
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Speaker 3: The way you know that you can have a place

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Speaker 3: where a tree is struck by lightning and it becomes

350
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Speaker 3: in some sense sacred. But it seems to me rather

351
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Speaker 3: there's a kind of ambivalence, like is this a place

352
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 3: that is cursed and dangerous and will hurt you? Or

353
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Speaker 3: is this a place that is in some way blessed

354
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Speaker 3: and is showing off the power of the gods or

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Speaker 3: God's power in a way that can be celebrated and sacralized.

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Speaker 1: There's almost kind of a U curve, right, It's like

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Speaker 1: this the place is so sacred or it is so

358
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Speaker 1: cursed that it essentially amounts to the same thing, and

359
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,439
Speaker 1: that is no trespassing. Sorry, you can't visit it, you

360
00:20:54,440 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: can't touch it. Well, that is all really fascinating. And

361
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: another cool thing is that it does lead directly into

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00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: the tree that I'm going to talk about here, the

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00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: Rowan tree. I was looking at several different sources on this,

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00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: one of which was I didn't spend a lot of

365
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: time with this source, but there was an older article

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00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: titled the Folklore of Trees by Lizzie M. Hadley. This

367
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: was published in the Journal of Education back in eighteen

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00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: ninety four, and it's very short, little kind of wordy

369
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: right up touching on various sacred ideas of trees, but

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00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: the Rowan tree is mentioned in passing and just a

371
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 1: few ideas connected to it or thrown out, including the

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Speaker 1: idea in some European traditions that the tree grew from

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Speaker 1: a place where lightning struck. That's like the origin of

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Speaker 1: this tree.

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Speaker 3: That would be interesting in the So remember the phrasing

376
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 3: plenty uses is that lightning bolts are buried there where

377
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 3: the tree is. So it's like when lightning hits the ground,

378
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,719
Speaker 3: it's almost like a seeding of the ground, like it

379
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: plants something when it hits. And so you could imagine, well,

380
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: if what it's planting is some kind of seed, what

381
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 3: grows it could be a type of tree, that's right.

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00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 1: So why did I pick the Rowan tree? Well, I

383
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: recently had the opportunity, in the privilege, to to go

384
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Speaker 1: on a little tour of Whales with my family, and

385
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: I was enraptured by the haunting beauty of its rolling hills,

386
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: these dramatic valleys and in some cases hilltop ruins of

387
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: which there ghost stories about. So I thought, well, I

388
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: should I should cover a tree that is sacred within

389
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,959
Speaker 1: Welsh traditions. There's obviously going to be a lot of

390
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: overlap with other sacred trees in the British Isles and

391
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 1: and so forth. But yeah, I wanted to pick something

392
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: that had significance in Whales. And I realized I was

393
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: already talking a little bit about Welsh tradition and mythology

394
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Speaker 1: on the monster fact, and I should go ahead and

395
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: drive home. If anyone's not familiar Wales as a country

396
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: in western Great Britain, it is part of the United Kingdom,

397
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: but it boasts its own distinctive culture and language. We've

398
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: touched on Welsh Welsh mythology before, which of course shares

399
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 1: various ideas with other cultures of the British Isles. But

400
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if we'd really if we've ever really

401
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: stopped to just talk about the idea of Whales and

402
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: Welsh tradition and Welsh language in any degree of detail.

403
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: Maybe we haven't. I forgot about it, but I just

404
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: wanted to bring it up again. So again, it's the

405
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: Rowan tree or sorbus occuparia, also known as the mountain ash,

406
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 1: though it is not closely related to either true ash

407
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: trees or a particular tree. This is Eucalyptus regnums this

408
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: is the plant that you find in Australia, so obviously

409
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: a good ways away from Wales in Europe, but that

410
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: one is sometimes called a mountain ash, but it is

411
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: not related to the tree we're talking about here. No,

412
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: the rowan tree is actually a tree or shrub of

413
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 1: the rose family.

414
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 3: Oh I didn't know that.

415
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, So according to the UK's Woodland Trust, which has

416
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: a nice little overview about the species here, a rowan

417
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: tree can reach heights of fifteen meters or nearly fifty

418
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: feet in height. The trees bark is smooth and silvery

419
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: gray and leaf the leaf buds are purple and hairy.

420
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: I included a close up image here for you, Joe,

421
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 1: But everyone out there, if you do a search, you

422
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: can find like rowan tree buds. You'll see these. And yeah,

423
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: it has this, as is often sometimes the case with

424
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: like the little details, especially with budding of trees. You know,

425
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: there's almost like a velvety appearance to it. It almost doesn't

426
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: look like tree flesh, but more like you know, it's

427
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: like part of a deer growing out of the tree.

428
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 3: Or so I was gonna say, like like a little

429
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: fallen's ear. Yeah.

430
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: Now, when the leaves develop, it's gonna have the serrated

431
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: leaflets and groups of five to eight it produces white flowers, which,

432
00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: following pollination, develop into vibrantly scarlet berries. Sometimes I've seen

433
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: various photographs, and of course, you know, color, you know,

434
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: details of color kind of vary depending on the exact

435
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: photography in question. But yeah, sometimes they look more scarlett,

436
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: sometimes they look a little more orange, but it's a

437
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: vibrant color. And yeah, you can get into a discussion

438
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: about it. What is red, what is orange? Anyway? At

439
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: any rate, it's bright. It catches the eye, and that's

440
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: going to be important as we proceed. And how long

441
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: do they live? Well, a rowan tree apparently can live

442
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: for upwards of two centuries according to the Woodland Trust,

443
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: though a source I'm going to side in a minute

444
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: put it more at about one hundred and fifty years.

445
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: But at any rate, you know, not the longest lived

446
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: tree by any stretch. But still they tend to live

447
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: longer than humans. So they still have that kind of

448
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: like you know, mythic connotation. They stand outside of our

449
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: short time on this.

450
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: Earth, always been here.

451
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they're native to the cooler parts of the

452
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: northern Hemisphere, mostly western and northern UK. That's or at

453
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: least that's one of the key areas that where they grow,

454
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: and that's where we're going to be talking about here.

455
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: So you'll find them not only in whales, find them

456
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: in the highlands of Scotland, and they're they're pretty far flung.

457
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: Another source I was looking at was a Journal of

458
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: Ecology ride up on the species. This was by all

459
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: Olivier rasp at All titled just Sorbus Occuparia l and

460
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: this article pointed out that one of the British isles,

461
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, are certainly a place where you can find them.

462
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: They're present through most of Europe, from Iceland to northern Russia,

463
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: though not into Arctic Russia, down into Spain, Portugal, Italy, Macedonia,

464
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: and it seems limited by poor drought tolerance and a

465
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: necessity for a short growing season and a cold requirement

466
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: for the bud burst. This source, also, this is the

467
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: one that puts the age at more of like a one

468
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty year range, So I'm not sure if

469
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: it's one fifty or two hundred, you know, it depends.

470
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: I guess you know where you want to fall on that.

471
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: But It's also been pointed out that the sorbus species

472
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: here seems to have perhaps originated in Southeast Asia and

473
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: gradually spread. Now, another interesting thing to think about trees

474
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, having a sacred nature is that,

475
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: of course we make use of trees, We do things

476
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: with trees. Trees, you know, produce wood that we may

477
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: use for various purposes depending on the quality of the wood.

478
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: They produce leaves, they produce berries, they produce flowers, and

479
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: so forth. So they are also this like font of

480
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: materials that we might make use of, and I guess

481
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: you don't always know exactly how that's going to fall. Like,

482
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, there are plenty of examples of cultures where

483
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: the things that make the mundane world possible are in

484
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: and of themselves sacred, you know, be it a food

485
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: product or whatever. Like, just because you interact with it

486
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: every day, it doesn't mean that it can't be sacred.

487
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: It may be very sacred within a tradition because it

488
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: is part of your survival mm hmm.

489
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

490
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: But then of course our lives are full of things

491
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,959
Speaker 1: that we don't really give sacred connotations too, because they

492
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: are just part of the mundane world. So what do

493
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: whom humans use it for? Well, the wood of the

494
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: rowant is usable. Apparently, it's hard and tough, but not

495
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: super durable. And my understanding of this is that basically

496
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: it means you maybe wouldn't want to build a house

497
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: out of it or use it for like really like

498
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: high stress situations.

499
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: You wouldn't build a car out of it.

500
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, But on the other hand,

501
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: it's not like it's super fragile, like, because you can

502
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: make furniture out of it, craft works and even tools,

503
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, So it's like, I guess it's you know,

504
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: it's not so fragile that you could make a tool

505
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: out of it. But just again, I guess maybe not

506
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: a house, though perhaps there are examples of such usage

507
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: as well. But that's that's what the sources were saying.

508
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: And as far as the berries go, I think we

509
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: were talking about Mike earlier you asked me, well, can

510
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: people eat the berries? Apparently, so now I want to

511
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: add the caveat here. Anytime we're talking about eating berries,

512
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: please do please do additional research before you eat berries.

513
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: But my understanding is that they are edible for humans,

514
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: but they are quite tart, and that means that jam

515
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: is one of the most common culinary uses of the berries,

516
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, So, you know, typical jam making scenario usually

517
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot of sugar added or some sort of

518
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: sweetener added, there's a you know, a reduction taking place,

519
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of steps in place to

520
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: take something that is otherwise quite tart and make it

521
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: consumable and you know, and appealing to the human palate.

522
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 3: So cooked rowan thumbs up, raw rowan question mark, right.

523
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, the sources I was looking at,

524
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: they did say that, you know what they've the rowan

525
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: berries have long been a part of the human diet.

526
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: There's evidence from like southern Sweden from around six thousand

527
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: years ago that that gives us evidence that, yeah, like

528
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: people have been eating the rowan berries. So as to

529
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: I didn't get into details about ancient preparations of rowan berries,

530
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: if they were cooking them or if they were just

531
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: eating them raw, but it seems like when you get

532
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: into more modern uses, and not even just modern, but

533
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: like you know, last several centuries, people were generally talking

534
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: about taking the rowan berries and doing some sort of

535
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 1: culinary preparation to get them to a place where we

536
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: enjoy them. Yeah, and sadly, I did not know to

537
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: look out for Rowan jam while I was in Wales,

538
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: so I don't know if it's something I could have

539
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: purchased or tried if i'd been looking for it. I

540
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: did a quick look around the internet. I'm not even

541
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: sure you can get in the States, so I'm not sure.

542
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: If you have tried rowan jam and or you are

543
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: familiar with all the things you can do with rowan berries,

544
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: do reach out to us. Email us. We'll have that

545
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: email at the end of this episode and we will

546
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: gladly share your rowan berry experience in the future edition

547
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: of Listener Mail. Hey.

548
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: In fact, this connects to a project that's been on

549
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: my mind lately. I have never made jam at home,

550
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 3: but for some reason, I've got a hankering to make

551
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: homemade raspberry jam. Not exactly sure why, but it's in

552
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: my mind and it's not going to leave until I

553
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: do it. Jam makers, right and let us know what

554
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: are your tips? How do you make the best jam?

555
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: All right now? According to rasp in that paper I

556
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: referenced earlier, if you if you look around in Poland,

557
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: the fruits there are used to flavor vodka. Now, another

558
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,479
Speaker 1: source I was looking at does mention a Welsh spirit.

559
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: This is in a book titled Rowan by Oliver Soffel

560
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. This is a erect on book. I

561
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: think that they have a number of books related to

562
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: different species. Reference to at least one of these a

563
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: book on squid in the past on the show. But

564
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: there's apparently a traditional Welsh spirit called dia grioval and

565
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: this was made by steeping crushed rowan berries in water.

566
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: Though I have to add here nobody offered me a

567
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: diaudriaval while I was in Wales. They offered me beer,

568
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: they offered me cider, but they did not offer me this.

569
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: So if you have experience with this spirit, do reach

570
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: out to us on this matter as well.

571
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: All right.

572
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: So there's a ton of more botanical information we might

573
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: get into with the tree. That is, you know, ultimately

574
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: this far flung and there are a lot of cultural

575
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: interpretations of the plant that we're not going to get

576
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: into because we're dealing with so many different cultures across

577
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: a considerable period of time here. But one of the

578
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: really interesting things about them is about that the tree

579
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: itself is that it is considered a sacred tree, and

580
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: it's considered a sacred tree not only in Wales, but

581
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: throughout the British Isles and of course into Europe as well.

582
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: Mainland Europe. The berries seem to be a key part

583
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: of the tree's sacred appeal. That bright color, that red,

584
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: that scarlet, sometimes looking more like a deep orange in

585
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: some of the photos I'm looking at. At any rate,

586
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: this is a color that stands out. It catches the eye,

587
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: and we know that it resonated with people in this

588
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: part of the world going way back. In fact, this

589
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: is something that Suthel brings up in his book. You know,

590
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: if we look to the Red Lady archaeological find, we

591
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: see the importance of the color red. This is something

592
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: that actually came up during my tour. This was an

593
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: Upper Paleolithic partial male skeleton that was found buried in

594
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: Whales and the bones are dyed not with rowan berries,

595
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: but with red ochre. But it does give it this

596
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: red coloration. Is the remains I believe are dated to

597
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 1: about thirty one thousand BCE, and Suthel, here inciting this

598
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: says that it stands as quote indication of the early

599
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: sacramental importance of the color red in Northern Europe. So

600
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: just a little taste of the importance of red in

601
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: the region. Though I think we can all sort of

602
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: speak to the experience of seeing red, you know, as

603
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: if we see red in nature, it stands out to us,

604
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: It calls to us. It is communicating something to us,

605
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: certainly about the natural world, but perhaps about the unseen

606
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: world as well.

607
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: It's a high salience color in nature, as opposed to

608
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 3: you know, you're browns and greens, which are more kind

609
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 3: of background.

610
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so in Wales and throughout the British Isles,

611
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: one of the most widespread folk traditions concerning the rowan

612
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: is its ability to keep evil away, particularly certainly in

613
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: later interpretations getting into the Christian era, is the idea

614
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: that it will keep away witches and it will stand

615
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: as a deterrent witchcraft. So it has a long standing

616
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: role in protective magic. Amulets made out of rowan or

617
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: somehow incorporating rowan wood or other elements of the tree.

618
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: These have been employed as charms against witchcraft, though ironically

619
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: it several points out this was itself considered witchcraft by

620
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: the church, you know, so you get this weird you

621
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: see this, of course, you know, all over where the

622
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: Christian Church was also dealing with well, you know, folkloric

623
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: traditions and over pagan religion. Religious ideas is that they're

624
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: warning them about the dangers of the devil, and then

625
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: they're like, well, this devil thing seems pretty serious. Of

626
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: course I'm going to use all the tools in my toolbox.

627
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: And then the church is saying, no, not all the tools,

628
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: only the tools.

629
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: You could hear this reminds me of In October, we

630
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: did a couple of episodes about the demons of ancient Mesopotamia,

631
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 3: and we were talking about the demon Pizuzu, which features

632
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 3: in the story The Exorcystem, written from a Catholic Christian

633
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 3: Catholic perspective in which this demon is sort of the devil,

634
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 3: one of the denizens of Hell, a servant of Lucifer.

635
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 3: But in fact, looking into it, we found that Pazuzu

636
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: was often used as a protective entity against worst demons

637
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 3: in ancient Mesopotamia. So yeah, yeah, one person's guardian angel

638
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 3: is another person's devil, I guess.

639
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's worth driving home there apotropic magic

640
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: is ancient. It is it has been a part of

641
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: human culture since time out of mind and of the

642
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: use of Rowan based apotropaic magic also naturally predates Christianity

643
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: in the British Isles, but it comes into sharp focus,

644
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: according to Sothal, during the age of the Reformation, solidifying

645
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: in this perceived modern struggle between the Christian faithful and

646
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: which is in league with the devil. And of course

647
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: we've we've talked about like the witchcraft persecution before, and

648
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: it is interesting how you know, it's easy to think

649
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: about witchcraft persecution. You think Monty Python, the Holy Grail,

650
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: you think firm Middle Ages, and a lot of what

651
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: we talk about when we talk about the persecution of

652
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: quote unquote witches, and which often boiled down to the

653
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: persecution of non Christian ideas, of people who didn't fit in,

654
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,439
Speaker 1: of women in general. This was largely more of a

655
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 1: of a Renaissance idea. You can really, you know, tease

656
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: that apart in various ways, but you know, it is

657
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: the it's not so much, you know, to use a

658
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: popular description, it's not so much a part of the

659
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: demon haunted world, but is the world is illuminating and

660
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: there's a need to find those demons again, like like, no,

661
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: there's less darkness, there's less place for me to imagine

662
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: the demons, and I need to see them, you know. Anyway,

663
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 1: we could go on and on about that.

664
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 3: Or you could see it as a kind of lashing out,

665
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: an attempt to get control during times of disruption and disorder,

666
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: which you know was certainly going on in Europe during

667
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 3: the Reformation. You know, there's so there's undermining of the

668
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: traditional dominant institution. There are schisms and factions and wars

669
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: that follow, and and you know, there's all the kind

670
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: of chaos that comes with that, and people are trying

671
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 3: to get control and they demonize somebody to make sense

672
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 3: of everything.

673
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and then on another level, it's worth noting that, Okay,

674
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: so it comes into sharp focus here, and certainly there's

675
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: a lot of writing for this time period that references

676
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: it as people are using rowan then as an ambulant

677
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: against the devil and or which is in the surface

678
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: of the devil. But of course again it's an old practice.

679
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: People are pulling out old practices even as this you know,

680
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: modern threat is explained to them. And in you know,

681
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: in the pre in pre Christian times and even into

682
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 1: Christian times of course, because you know, different belief systems

683
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: can can, and often do stand alongside each other. It's

684
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: not always devils and witches you're trying to keep it bay. Sometimes,

685
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: of course, it is the fairy folk, you know, the

686
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: the original unseen threats. And you know, we talked in

687
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: our episodes from I think what the year before last,

688
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: we talked about elfshot. We talked about the idea that

689
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: the uh that these invisible folk are out there potentially

690
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: targeting your cattle, your live stock, with invisible missiles that

691
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: will make them sick. And and so there's this long

692
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: standing tradition then of using rowan to ward off not

693
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: only magical harm to your home or you know, your

694
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: family and so forth, but to prevent magical harm to

695
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: your live stock. And not only live stock, but you're

696
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: like your milk, animal products that might be corrupted by

697
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: the invisible fairy folk, that they might harm like the

698
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: crucial element in the milk and either make the milk

699
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: bad or you know, or or not nutritious, or make

700
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: butter making possible, all due to magical attack.

701
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: I recall passages about this in the Secret Commonwealth of Elves,

702
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 3: Fawns and Fairies, which if you've never looked into that's

703
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: that's a great cool historical book. It's from the late

704
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 3: seventeenth century, sort of an anthropological study done by a

705
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 3: Scottish priest named Robert Kirk is from the sixteen nineties,

706
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: and he went out and like talked to people about

707
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 3: what they believed about like elves and fairies and stuff.

708
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: And I recall a concern of it being that elves

709
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: we're gonna come make your cow's milk sour.

710
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that means, you know, not only might

711
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: they make the milk taste bad, they might like destroy

712
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: something very beneficial about it, and they might prevent you

713
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: from using it in other products and so forth. So

714
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: it's like it's you know, it was seen as a

715
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: sensitive time right after the milk has been collected, and yeah,

716
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: you have to you have to apply these protections. And

717
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: that might mean rowan would rowan berries and so forth.

718
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: By the way, reading about this was also pointed out.

719
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: This is in the Soulful Book, but I've seen this

720
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: pointed out elsewhere as well. Is that if you take

721
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: a rowan berry, pluck it from the tree and you

722
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: look at where the stem was attached, you will see

723
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: what is sometimes described I think, I think very with

724
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: a fair amount of flourish, as a cross. It's not

725
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: really cross. It looks more like a star. I've also

726
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: seen it described as being pentagram like, again, vaguely like

727
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: a star. I think it's maybe a stretch to say

728
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: it looks like a pentagram, but still I guess it

729
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: does have a novel shape. I don't know. I think

730
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: we see this in a lot of berries and fruits

731
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: and so forth.

732
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: I've never looked at one myself, but you've got the

733
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 3: pictures here, and I'm looking at a five pointed star. Yeah.

734
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, when I look at it next to an

735
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: image of a pentagram as presented here, I'm like, Okay,

736
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: I guess I can see it. But all of this,

737
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, all of this energy around the row in

738
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: these traditions of the tree having some sort of sacred

739
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: protective property to it, this continues again to holdsway during

740
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: Christian times and in Rowan trees were then planted, for instance,

741
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: in Welsh graveyards and churchyards to ward away evil. And

742
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: this is another case where I wish I had known

743
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: to look out for one of these trees, because I

744
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: got to roam around in a Welsh graveyard at one point,

745
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: and you know, it was very it was very neat.

746
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: I was looking at frozen spiderwebs. It was pretty fascinating.

747
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: But I didn't know to look for these trees. So

748
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 1: maybe there was one there doing all this protective work

749
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: and I just didn't know about it. The Woodland Trust

750
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: website also points out that they're often situated in front

751
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: of homes in Ireland, and then in various traditions where

752
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: you want to protect that milk, you might have some

753
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: sort of an implement made from rowan wood that is

754
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: used to stir the milk. So like a direct interface

755
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: between the sacred wood and the substance you were trying

756
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 1: to protect from the fairy folks.

757
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 3: Hmmm interesting, Yeah.

758
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: To prevent the milk from curdling, for example. Also, the

759
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: Woodland Trust website mentions the idea of also having a

760
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: pocket charm made from rowing wood to protect against rheumatism,

761
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: so you know, there are various uses for it, also

762
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: using it to make divining rods, so you know, you

763
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: can get into various examples of where the wood is used.

764
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: Maybe it's used in a tool to make a tool,

765
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: and maybe that tool is you know, less a practical

766
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: tool and more of a supernatural tool to you know,

767
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,959
Speaker 1: find things hidden in the earth or to magically stir

768
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: your milk to protect it. I guess one of the

769
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: other things worth noting about the row and tree, though,

770
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: we need to start talking about, like where it's planted

771
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: and its protective properties, is that again it is as

772
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: it's a widespread tree, and it is widely planted they

773
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: point out as a street or garden tree. So there

774
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: are gonna be plenty of examples where a rowan tree

775
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: is just around and it doesn't mean that someone's you know,

776
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: protecting the local coffee shop or gas station. There just

777
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: happens to be a rowan tree there. So I don't know.

778
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: I guess one has to avoid getting too two into

779
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: the idea of them being planted strategically to protect against evil.

780
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it does seem like it was,

781
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: at least in some instance definitely planted as a form

782
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: of protective magic.

783
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 3: Oh, it couldn't hurt. I mean, you don't want to

784
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 3: be at the gas station and have an elf shooting

785
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 3: in and souring your gas.

786
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: Exactly, and I also want to throw this out just

787
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: a quote provided direct quote about the consumption of rowan berries.

788
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: The Woodland Trust does right quote. Rowan berries are edible

789
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: to humans when cooked. They are sour but rich in

790
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: vitamin C and can be used to make a tart jam.

791
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: So I'd say, let's let's leave it at that. Then

792
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: that sounds okay, that's that sounds it sounds good to me.

793
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: Look up how to cook rowan berries before you eat them.

794
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: And then I should also point out, I mean, they're

795
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: obviously we don't have time to go into all the

796
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: but I was reading a little bit about how there

797
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: also are medicinal properties to the berries, often used as

798
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: is like a laxative, you know, uses usages like that.

799
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: So there are going to be various traditions in these

800
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: different European cultures that also involve uses for rowan berries

801
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: and so forth. They're going to help with some sort

802
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: of ailment. So again we get into the idea of

803
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: that the sacred tree is this thing that may have

804
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: you know, symbolic power, but then also it has these

805
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: various you know, mundane uses that may also take on

806
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: qualities that are sacred. It may have medicinal uses that

807
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 1: could also take on qualities that are sacred as well.

808
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 3: Can't think about the word Rowan without thinking about the

809
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 3: name Rowan. Can't think about the name Rowan without thinking

810
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 3: of who am I going to say? Am I going

811
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 3: to say the mister bean guy? No, I'm thinking of

812
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 3: the wicker Man. That's the name of the kid that

813
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 3: the detective is looking for.

814
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: Oh, well, that that I haven't looked in to it.

815
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: But that that can't be an accident, right, I mean

816
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: that seems like that. That seems like a film that

817
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: was very concerned with folkloric traditions and and so forth.

818
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: So be a mighty coincidence. Yeah, the kid wasn't named

819
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: like Bill. We may have to come back to the

820
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: wicker Man on Weird House Cinema at some point. That's

821
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big one.

822
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 3: That's a favorite at our house.

823
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,959
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the full Car Royalty right there.

824
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: There's a lot of great Christopher Lee out there, but

825
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 3: that is peak Christopher Lee.

826
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're gonna I'm gonna go ahead and

827
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: close out this episode. Again, this is a series we'll

828
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: likely come back to in the future. We already have

829
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: some notes about some other Sacred Trees, so you'll be

830
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: on the lookout, and if you have any suggestions for

831
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: future Sacred Tree episodes, right in let us know. Likewise,

832
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: as we said, if you have experience with anything we

833
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: discussed in this episode of or feedback on it, we'd

834
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Stuff to Blow Your Mind

835
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

836
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on Fridays we set aside

837
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film

838
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: on Weird House Cinema. If you are on Instagram you

839
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: want to follow the show, find us at st b

840
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: y M podcast.

841
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

842
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

843
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

844
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

845
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,479
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

846
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

847
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

848
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

849
00:47:43,200 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

850
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: A po polic