1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week oil origins and 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: old tapes. A critical part of any good story is 3 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: the antagonist, the villain. In stories about climate change, the 4 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: villain can be something as abstract as human nature, the 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: short term thinking that stops systemic changes, our love of 6 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: comfort and convenience. Or the villain can be specific China, 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: the US, or oil companies. But the problem with that 8 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: is it's not always compelling to tell a story about 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: a country or a company doing something wrong. You've got 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: to find the people doing it. And my guest today, 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: Amy Vesterwald, has spent a lot of time in identifying 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: individuals who have made outsized contributions to climate change, in 13 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: particular the men who founded the public relations industry and 14 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: their connection to big oil. 15 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: It helps to understand that, oh, there were specific companies 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: that hired specific people to really convince the public to 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: think about things a certain way. It's not like impossible 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: for us to think about things differently. 19 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: Amy has produced nine seasons of Drill, what she calls 20 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: a true crime podcast about climate change. The oil industry 21 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: and its lackeys appear frequently. Amy's scrutiny of the pr guys, 22 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: has opened my eyes to just how long the oil 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: industry has got to tell its story with very little interruption. 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: This week in our Climate Storytelling series, I talked to 25 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: Amy about how she researches Drilled, why she chose to 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: style it as a true crime podcast, and how storytelling 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: around climate has changed. If you're joining the series for 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: the first time, I recommend going back to the feed 29 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,639 Speaker 1: and adding my interview with climate fiction writer Kim Stanley 30 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: Robinson to your list. Subscribe to make sure you get 31 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: next week's episode where I talk about climate on TV 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: with Dorothy Futenberry, an executive producer of the show Extra Relations, Amy, 33 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to 35 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: be here. 36 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: You've been an environment journalist for a long time, and 37 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: you focused on storytelling that gets reporting outside the green 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: echo chamber. When did you see the need for this? 39 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: I almost feel like that's kind of how I got 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: into clem reporting in the first place, because I had 41 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: this weird little job that I just took to pay 42 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: rent one month where I got asked to write some 43 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 2: case studies for an engineering firm that was like updating 44 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: its marketing materials. And one of the case studies that 45 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: they had was they had been asked to re engineer 46 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: some offshore oil platforms for Shell to make them adaptable 47 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: and resilient to see level rise. And this was work 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: that they had done in the nineties, and I thought, 49 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure Shelle was not even acknowledging climate change 50 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 2: much in the nineties, and so I looked into it 51 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: and I wrote a little story about it. But that 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: kind of got me really obsessed with how the fossil 53 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: fuel industry has framed the story on climate, and I've 54 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: kind of just been obsessed with it ever since. But 55 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: in terms of my own work, I'd been in print 56 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: for a really long time, and then I decided I 57 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: wanted to learn how to do audio. I got a 58 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: job at an NPR station, and I was doing various things, 59 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: and I kept trying to come up with an idea 60 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: for a climate podcast that could be narrative. Because this 61 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: was like, you know, around the time that cereal was exploding, 62 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: and everybody was like, oh, this is such an interesting format, 63 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: and it was. It took me like a while to 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: figure out what story would lend itself to that, which 65 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: got me thinking about kind of storytelling and climate more generally, 66 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: and just how the framing of a story can really 67 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: actually help people understand the information better. 68 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: Right, And this is we are talking about Drilled, the 69 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: podcast that you launched almost a decade ago and still run. 70 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: And of course there is a series out this year, 71 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: season eight, that focuses on Guyana Country in South America, 72 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: where Exonmobil discovered oil in twenty fifteen. What made you 73 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: interested in that story as a way of telling what 74 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: you call Drill to be, which is true crime about 75 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: the environment. 76 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. I got a press release about a lawsuit that 77 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: had been launched in Guyana that was invoking the country's 78 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: constitutional right to a healthy environment, and that kind of 79 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: got me first looking into it because I had not 80 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 2: been actually following the development of an oil and gas 81 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: industry there, and the format of this lawsuit was interesting 82 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: to me. So that got me down a whole rabbit 83 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: hole of looking into what was going on in Guyana. 84 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: And then I got even more interested because Exon discovered 85 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 2: oil in twenty fifteen, They actually started drilling in twenty 86 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: seventeen and then shipped their first barrel in twenty nineteen, 87 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: and was already projecting that Guyana would be responsible for 88 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: around a quarter of their global volume by twenty twenty five, 89 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: which is a lot. I mean that A, it's just 90 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 2: so rapid for a country to go from no oil 91 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: production at all to that level of volume, and then 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: B that would put it even above Exon's Texas operations. 93 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 2: And then as I started to talk to people there, 94 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: I found out that Exon had very quickly moved to 95 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: sort of capture various aspects of civil society. So the 96 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 2: first investment that they made outside of oil and gas 97 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: in Guyana was to become the sponsor of the cricket 98 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 2: league and the Guyana team. They paid to get cricket 99 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: games broadcast on television, and then they started hiring journalists 100 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 2: that were working on the oil and gas beat to 101 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: work for Exxon's comms department. So there were all these 102 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: things that they were doing to really kind of make 103 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: sure that there weren't a lot of critics of the project. 104 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: Sports washing, as it's come to be known, where gas 105 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: companies but also other kinds of polluters use sponsorships of 106 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: big sports is a growing phenomenon. We have a wonderful 107 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: article that we linked to in the show notes about 108 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: it until you spot it. You don't notice how many 109 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: places it's happening. 110 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 2: It's so prevalent, it's just wild. Actually, I was just 111 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 2: looking at some of the advertising data for the oil companies, 112 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: and for all of them, their top five advis are 113 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: always in sports related programming. So it's a big, big 114 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: area for them. 115 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've also just learned that, you know, Saudi Arabia, 116 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: which was trying to create its own golf championship and 117 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: was fighting with the global leader, the PGA, has kind 118 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: of won because the PGA has now agreed to merge 119 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: with the Saudi Arabian Golf League, and so it's just 120 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: one more place where this continues to grow. But anyway, 121 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: coming back to the series, South America in general is 122 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: a place that's difficult to report in. I mean, we 123 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: know of stories where journalists have been killed, not just 124 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: jailed or harmed. What was it like working in that environment, 125 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: because I know you travel to Guyana to tell this. 126 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the first time in a while that I 127 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: have felt a significant level of relief. On my flight out, 128 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: I would say there was definitely some just some you know, intimidation, 129 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: getting followed. My hotel room was broken into I had 130 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: some interesting surprise run ins with police and a lot 131 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: of trouble with customs agents getting out of the country, 132 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: one of whom I don't know, was sort of holding 133 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: onto my baggage and wouldn't give it back to me 134 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: until I promised that I wouldn't write anything negative about Guyana. 135 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: So that was it was interesting, but I'm mostly like 136 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: the biggest thing was working with our reporter on the 137 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: ground there named Keana Wilberg, who writes for one of 138 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: the local papers, so really talking through risk mitigation and 139 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: secure with her and having a lot of contingency plans 140 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: in place in case anything became just went beyond the 141 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 2: level of intimidation. 142 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: Did you find out who broke in? 143 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 2: I did not know, but it was just it was weird. 144 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: It was one of those where you know, I had 145 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: cash out on the on the nightstand that was left untouched. 146 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: Nothing was taken. It was just my laptop was open 147 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: to you know, some files related to the story. Nothing 148 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: that was that big of a deal because I don't, 149 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: you know, keep sensitive files on my laptop and then 150 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: leave it in hotel rooms. It was clearly just sort 151 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: of an intimidation kind of thing. 152 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: One of my favorite seasons off Drill is The mad 153 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: Men of Climate Denial. It's about how the oil industry 154 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: promoted climate denial over the past many decades, and that 155 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: form of storytelling has been very much created by the 156 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: oil industry going back almost a century, and you document 157 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: that history in the most interesting way. What got you 158 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: onto that story in the first place. 159 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 2: Well, actually, when I first started Drilled, the intention was 160 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: for it to be like a limited run series, and 161 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: you know, the first season was about the origins of 162 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: climate denil the Exon news story, tracking down a bunch 163 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: of Exon scientists who talked to me about the research 164 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: they'd been doing for for Exon on Climate back in 165 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties, all of that. And then as 166 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: I got to sort of the end of researching that season, 167 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 2: I got to thinking there just had to be more 168 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: to the story. Like, the climate denial strategy is a 169 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: pretty doman, straightforward strategy, and yes, it's appealing to sort 170 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: of tell people that this big scary thing is actually 171 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: not happening and they don't have to change. But it 172 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: worked so well and so quickly to turn public sentiment 173 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: away from climate action that I felt like there had 174 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: to have been something that came before it, And so 175 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: the more I started looking into it, the more I 176 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 2: realized that, oh, the fossil fuel industry sort of laid 177 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: down this foundation that really shaped how people thought about 178 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: the industry, how people thought about the environment, how people 179 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: thought about solutions to environmental problems, and the waves that 180 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: those solutions could or couldn't intersect with the economy. All 181 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: of these things that really kind of laid the groundwork 182 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: for climate denial to work as well as it did. 183 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: And I've continued to be really obsessed with the PR 184 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: industry in general and the fossil fuel industry's role as 185 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: one of its first clients. 186 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: And storytelling has been used very effectively by the fossil 187 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: fuel companies. You know, you document that the PR industry 188 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: has an idea itself was created by the oil industry, 189 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: so the fact that they can wield it to that 190 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: effect is not surprising, but it is still worth examining. Now, 191 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: we are journalists. We deal in facts, we report on stories, 192 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: we go to experts, we go to the ground, we 193 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: look at what is happening. But at the end of 194 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: doing all that work, we also have to then take 195 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: account of what we have in front of us, and 196 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: what's the best way in which we can build a 197 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: story together and tell somebody who may be not interested 198 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: in this subject at all, but should really know about it. 199 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: And stories are the currency we use. So when you 200 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: do this work and when you look at how effective 201 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: the PR industry is at storytelling, what have you found 202 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: in your toolkit the best counter. 203 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 2: It sounds strange because I work mostly in audio, but 204 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: I think that the best counter is often primary documents, 205 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 2: and I just don't think that people necessarily look at 206 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: those documents when they're in print stories. So I think 207 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: having an audio component is helpful. And by documents, I 208 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: mean things like like, I'll give you a really concrete example. 209 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: I did a story a while ago on the crab 210 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: fishermen that sued the oil companies. So this was a 211 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: fishing trade group that represented crab fishermen on the west 212 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: coast of the US and Canada, and they had filed 213 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: a lawsuit against the top thirty oil companies for their 214 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: role in delaying action on climate which the industry group 215 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: was arguing and it had effectively led to the impending 216 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: death of their industry, and you know, caused all kinds 217 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 2: of economic damage and whatnot. And several of the people 218 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: who were named plaintiffs in that lawsuit were total climate deniers. 219 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: They were like, I don't know if humans have anything 220 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: to do with it, ice ages, all of the usual things. 221 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: And I thought that was really interesting. I was just like, 222 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: how do you sign on to a lawsuit about climate 223 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: change if you don't believe the climate change? And what 224 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: they told me was that they'd been shown applications for 225 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: patents by all of the oil majors in the seventies 226 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: and eighties for kind of all of the infrastructure that 227 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: they would need to deal with climate change, so like 228 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: the tankers that could navigate a melting Arctic and these 229 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: offshore platforms I mentioned being re engineered for sea level rise. 230 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: And so their conclusion was, it doesn't matter what's causing 231 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: climate change. They knew that it was definitely happening, that 232 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: it was going to be a problem, and they prepared 233 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: their industry for it, and they didn't give us the 234 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: opportunity to do the same. And that's just not fair. 235 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: It was like a real penny drop moment for me 236 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: because I thought, oh, that's a much simpler story, you know, Fairness, 237 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: equal access, to information then trying to argue the finer 238 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: points of the science, which, like, especially in places where 239 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: there's not a real high science literacy, including the US, 240 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: I would say like, I don't know how you're ever 241 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: going to use that as your big selling point to people, 242 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: or your you know, proof that this thing is happening. 243 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: Or willingness to engage exactly exactly. If there isn't none, 244 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: then how much can you really explain the science exactly? 245 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: Now this might be naval gayzy, but from one podcast 246 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: host to another, why did you choose podcasts as the 247 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: medium for your storytelling? What does it offer that other 248 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: mediums don't. 249 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: The main thing that I always look for in stories 250 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: where I'm trying to decide like is this, you know, 251 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: better for print or for audio? Because I still do 252 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: print stories too, is like, will people understand this information 253 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: better if they can hear it from someone who was involved, 254 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: or if they can hear you know, the emotion behind it. 255 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: Will that help people to understand the information. And when 256 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: it comes to a lot of documents, I think the 257 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: answer is yes, which is strange and maybe counterintuitive. You know, 258 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: you'd think it's a it's a physical print document, it's 259 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: more helpful to see it. But what I found was 260 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: that people really clicked into it more when they heard, 261 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: you know, like a former excen researcher actually reading their 262 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: own memo that they wrote to you know, the executive 263 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: board about this problem of climate change, or you know, 264 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: I talked to one researcher who you could really hear 265 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: like a catch in his throat about how he felt 266 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: seeing the industry go from being part of the research 267 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: and looking for solutions to pretending that this thing didn't exist, 268 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: or you know, talking to these folks in the crowd 269 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: industry about what were these specific patterns that they saw 270 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: that really convinced them that this was an unfair situation. 271 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: There are times when hearing the emotional side of these 272 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: stories can actually really help people understand them and kind 273 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: of access the information easier. 274 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: Now, you relied a lot on newspapers and advertising and 275 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: articles of that time for the series on Madmen of 276 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: Climate Denial. How much of that was your original reporting, 277 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: which was stuff sitting in the archive you had to 278 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: go and find it, versus contextualizing what was sort of 279 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: like boring history somebody had thought about or worked on, Yeah, 280 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: but really putting it in the modern context of what 281 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: this industry is doing to our understanding of the world today. Yeah. 282 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, The Madman series was heavily my own research. It 283 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: was about like eighty percent of my own and then 284 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: definitely drew also from some academic works, but a lot 285 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: of archival research. I went to I don't know, like 286 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 2: four different archives, and fortunately for me, because I'm a 287 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: giant library nerd and I love nothing more than like 288 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: sitting by myself in an archive for weeks, but also 289 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 2: because these PR guys loved to donate all of their 290 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: files to libraries, so there's a significant amount of archival 291 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: stuff out there where you really get a good understanding 292 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: of their pasts and how they thought about messaging for 293 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: different companies. And the big thing that I realized researching 294 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: that season was that, in my opinion, I think a 295 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 2: lot of the sort of accepted wisdom on climate denial 296 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: is not quite right. So there's this really persistent story 297 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 2: that the tobacco industry came up with this playbook and 298 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: then the oil industry just copied it. And what you 299 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: see in all of these guys' history that were the 300 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: big kind of early fathers of PR is that they 301 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: were working for oil, tobacco, and chemicals at the same time, 302 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: all the time, since forever. So the reason that there's 303 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 2: crossover between the ways that different industries kind of approach 304 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: storytelling and narrative framing and disinformation, it's because they literally 305 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: had the same PR guy doing it for them. For example, 306 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 2: there's a guy named Earl Newsome who was doing PR 307 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: for Standard Oil New Jersey, which is now Exon, from 308 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 2: like nineteen twenty to nineteen sixty nine, and in several 309 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: cases he's saying, Hey, Standard, I did this one thing 310 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 2: for GM that worked really well. I think we should 311 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: do it for you guys too. That's happening constantly throughout history. 312 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, as part of our series, we are talking to 313 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: a few climate fiction writers. We're imagining how the future 314 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: is going to play out. But a lot of your 315 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: series is focused on what happened in the past and 316 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: what that tells us about today. So why do you 317 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: think it's important to look back and tell those stories 318 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: of the past. 319 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: I am a big believer in the idea that you 320 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: can't effectively solve a problem if you don't really know 321 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 2: where it came from, you know, And so for me, 322 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: I look at a lot of the technical solutions and 323 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 2: sort of future casting stuff. And I see a lot 324 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: of holes in people's understanding of history, and I think 325 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: it's really important to fill in those gaps so that 326 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: as we craft solutions, they're not repeating the mistakes of 327 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: the past. 328 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: After the break more from Amy about the people pushing 329 00:20:50,480 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 1: climate denialism, how much of a challenge was it to 330 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: find and be able to put that much load of 331 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: a story on a particular individual, And is that the 332 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: only way in which we can tell these complex stories 333 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: having to have individuals be the load bearers. 334 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: It's such an interesting question because I think there's a 335 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 2: few layers to it for me. So one is that 336 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: there's a real problem and sort of the storytelling industrial 337 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: complex in general, in that it's very dominated by kind 338 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: of a Western narrative framework that requires a real focus 339 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: on individual characters. Right, It's like the hero's journey and 340 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,719 Speaker 2: all of that stuff, and reality doesn't map to that, 341 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 2: you know, And in some ways, I feel like, you know, 342 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: how much of that narrative structure was actually created by 343 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: these same forces that I'm looking at. So there's a 344 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: part of me that really wants to reject the whole thing. 345 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: But I also am sort of well, you know, I 346 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: have I want people to listen, and I want to 347 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 2: reach as many people as possible, and having specific people 348 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: does help. And in the case of certain stories, like 349 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 2: if we're talking about propaganda, there really were specific individuals 350 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: who or a large percentage of the responsibility for how 351 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 2: that industry evolved. And in some ways to me, it 352 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: helps kind of feel like it's not such an overwhelming 353 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: challenge to rethink some of those narratives. You know that 354 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 2: it helps to understand that, oh, there were specific companies 355 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 2: that hired specific people to really convince the public to 356 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: think about things a certain way. It's not like impossible 357 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: for us to think about things differently, So it makes 358 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 2: it feel more achievable to actually shift it. 359 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 3: You. 360 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, one of your characters is Ivy Lee, who is 361 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: a PR guy you worked for John d. Rockefeller in 362 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: Standard Oil Times. One lesson that we take away from 363 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: him is words matter. So how much of your own 364 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: storytelling changed as a result of learning about the PR 365 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: industry and its roots and how much do you think 366 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: about your own writing and the words you use in 367 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: telling your stories? 368 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 2: Oh, constantly. I feel like it made me hyper aware, 369 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: maybe not in a good way, because you know, it's 370 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 2: hard to write when you're being that sort of self 371 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: aware of what every single word or phrase could mean. 372 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 2: But it also got me really thinking about is it 373 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 2: okay for a journalist, for example, to use some of 374 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 2: those same techniques, or to think about storytelling in the 375 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: same way. I'm not sure where I shake out on that. 376 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: I think I am constantly grappling with wanting a story 377 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: to be compelling and informative and also wanting to break 378 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: the pattern of propaganda. 379 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: Well, tell me about some of the techniques that you 380 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: do admire, even if you don't end up using them. 381 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: Okay, there's one example from Edward Burneze, who was Freud's 382 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: double nephew. Think on that one for a minute. 383 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: He was his double nephew, which is he was his 384 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: nephew from two different sites. My goodness. 385 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like his dad was Freud's wife's brother 386 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 2: and his mom was Freud's sister. I think something like that. 387 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: So anyway, there was no incest happening, but it was 388 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: still a very weird sort of situation. Edward Bernese was 389 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: such a brilliant guy, really like brought Freud's thinking into 390 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: advertising and pr in the US, and he worked for everyone. 391 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 2: I mean, he worked for the API, he worked for tobacco. 392 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: That's the American Petroleum Institute. 393 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, he kind of took over all of Ivy Lee's 394 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: clients when ivy Lee died quite young, and he sort 395 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 2: of handed his clients over to Edward Brenees. And Brenees 396 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: did this thing that I think about all the time 397 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 2: where he was contacted by a watchmaker who wanted to 398 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 2: break the taboo against men wearing wristwatches. So at the time, 399 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 2: it was considered feminine for men to wear wristwatch because 400 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 2: it was like a bracelet, and you know, real men 401 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: used pocket watches. So he got to thinking, Okay, how 402 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 2: can I shift you know, the cultural norms on this, 403 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: and who's considered like the most masculine of men, and 404 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: he lands on soldiers, And so he goes to an 405 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: expert that he knows, and he commissions a study on 406 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: how many soldiers are getting killed when they light a 407 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: match to look at their pocket watch, and how many 408 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: lives could potentially be saved if they switched to wristwatches. Now, 409 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 2: the whether or not the data of this study was 410 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: like at all credible is anyone's guess. But he took 411 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: this study to the military and convinced them to make 412 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: wristwatches standard issue for the army, and within like a year, 413 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 2: this taboo against men wearing wristwatches is gone. So stuff 414 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 2: like that where I'm like, man, that is such an 415 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: interesting way to come at that problem. Another one, he 416 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 2: got hired by a piano company that wanted to make 417 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: pianos something that you know, people would have in their 418 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: homes instead of just sort of limiting their customer base 419 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: to concert halls and music schools and things like that. 420 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: And so Bernez went to a bunch of architectural magazines 421 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: and convinced them to start putting pianos in the you know, 422 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: staged living rooms and stuff that they were taking pictures 423 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 2: of for these magazines. And you know, so it just 424 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 2: it became, you know, in this very subtle way. It's like, oh, 425 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: if you're wealthy and you have a large, impressive home, 426 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: you must have a piano in it as well. 427 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's sort of the belief as a 428 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, science student, that oh, if you just tell 429 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: people the facts, yeah, no, no, if they are convincing enough, 430 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: if the case is strong enough, they will surely see 431 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 1: the light. But you know, the Army does so much 432 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: climate change research and has been making such warnings about 433 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: how much disruption is going to bring for so long, 434 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: and what if anything, can be incorporated in the most 435 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: ethical way to be able to tell stories that do 436 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: break through. 437 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: One thing I do a lot is try to find 438 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 2: sort of a narrative format that people are very familiar with. 439 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: That's why, actually, you know, I did Drilled as a 440 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: true crime podcast because I thought, okay, well, sometimes it 441 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 2: help helps me have a complicated story to put it 442 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: in a container that people are very familiar with. But 443 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: then I also like, I also try to be really 444 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: careful about making sure that everything is thoroughly reported and 445 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: fact checked and put through legal review and all those 446 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 2: things too, because I don't want to perpetuate bad practices 447 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: or unethical practices. But it does help, I think, for 448 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 2: people to be able to kind of take in the 449 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 2: story in a format that's familiar. I mean, I would 450 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 2: love to figure out the Bernese piano version of climate 451 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: story telling it, but I haven't figured it out yet. 452 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: Now, you featured a lot of these mad men in 453 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: long interviews talking about their tricks and you play tape 454 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: from it in nearly every episode in that series. Why 455 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: were they doing that? 456 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: Why were they talking about it out loud? Yes, this 457 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: endlessly amuses me because I mean I have the same 458 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,239 Speaker 2: question about why would you do every single you know, 459 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: memo you've ever written to a library. It'd be like 460 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: you or I donating our entire email archive to a library. 461 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: You know, it's like. But I think the answer is 462 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 2: that they were mostly these were men who were very 463 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: impressed with their own intelligence. Burnees like loved the fact 464 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: that he could manipulate people so well. He was very 465 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: very pleased with his abilities in that regard. And there's 466 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 2: a lot of you know, doing this for the PR industry, 467 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: So in many cases, these were people who were really 468 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: helping to build and professionalize this industry and felt like 469 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: they needed to kind of do PR for themselves as well. 470 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 2: There's definitely, like, I think, two types of PR guys. 471 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: There's like the ones that do interviews and write articles 472 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: and op eds and kind of take credit for their work, 473 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: but there are definitely a few that prefer to stay 474 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 2: behind the scene and there's almost no media of them. 475 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: What's been the biggest change that you have seen in 476 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: storytelling around climate issues. 477 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a good question. Probably the biggest change 478 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: is the inclusion of emotion in climate storytelling. I've been 479 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: a climate reporter for more than twenty years now. I 480 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: would say up until maybe even five years ago, it 481 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: was really frowned upon to really have any kind of 482 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: emotion around the climate change issue, which I think is 483 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: pretty wild when you consider that it's this big, looming 484 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: existential crisis that will impact every aspect of our lives. 485 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: It seems entirely appropriate to have emotions about that. But 486 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 2: it was very you know, sort of frowned upon. And 487 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: I think partly that's because of the dominance of sort 488 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,959 Speaker 2: of science communication. I think partly it's because the industry 489 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: did such a good job of going after some of 490 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: the early climate communicators and you know, sort of branding 491 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: them as activists or accusing them of you know, making 492 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: things up or inciting panic or any of these things. 493 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: But I do feel like that has shifted considerably in 494 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: the last five or so years. 495 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about the oil industry as a effective 496 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: user of storytelling, but the other spectrum is also worthy 497 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: of discussion, which is the climate activist fhere. We've seen 498 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: in the last few years all kinds of groups come 499 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: up extinction rebellion here in the UK, but then offshoots 500 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: of it just up Oil Insulate Britain that are taking 501 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: some of the techniques of decades ago, which is being disruptive, 502 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: which is being in your face, but also then merging 503 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: it with social media, with great photography, with art, and 504 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: figuring out a way to get their message across, which 505 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, some of it is because the society understands 506 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: the urgency of the problem, so it's not just all 507 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: them doing the work, but some of it is certainly 508 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 1: the way they tell their story. 509 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah, I think that the climate movement has gotten 510 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: a lot better at storytelling in the last five ish years, 511 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 2: mostly driven by the youth climate movement. And I know, 512 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: like actually we got I got leaps some internal documents 513 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 2: from BP in twenty twenty that were looking at like 514 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: right before the pandemic, as they were kind of rebranding 515 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: and they had a workshop for how they're going to 516 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: reposition themselves on climate and energy transition and all these 517 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: kinds of things, and it was heavily dominated by an 518 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: intense fear of the youth climate movement and how effective 519 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 2: and authentic that movement was, and how on earth they 520 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: were going to be able to combat this, convince people 521 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: that they're also authentic, convince people that they're genuine about 522 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 2: being part of the solution, all those kinds of things. 523 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: So I would say that, you know, not only has 524 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: the movement gotten better, but also that it's more effective. 525 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: And we are of course talking about the evolution of 526 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: storytelling here, but it also helps and we should acknowledge that, finally, 527 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: the economic case for acting on climate is really settling in. 528 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: It was always there. It's just that people in power 529 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: and people with money now do see it as a 530 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: way in which they can make money. And so that's 531 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: allowing for more people with more money getting into the space. Right, 532 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: There's been an explosion in climate journalism, yes, because newsrooms 533 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: are investing in it, because newsrooms see that there is 534 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 1: revenue to be made that would support that kind of journalists. Right. 535 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I will say too that on the climate narrative front, 536 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: when I first had the idea for Drilled, I had 537 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: been assigned story to cover some of the early climate 538 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 2: liability cases, and I was in a court room in 539 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 2: San Francisco. This judge had ordered a climate science tutorial 540 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, this is it. Like there's 541 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: the judge who was kind of eccentric, and like the 542 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: oil company lawyers and the activists were there, and I thought, oh, 543 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: this is this is a good framework in which to 544 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: tell this story. I think it could work. And I 545 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: pitched it to like every big podcast company that was 546 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: doing narrative podcasts at the time, and this was like 547 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: the salad days of podcasts, when everybody had big budgets 548 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: and they were green lighting all kinds of shows, and 549 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: every single one of them told me that there was 550 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 2: no audience for climate narrative. 551 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: Wow. 552 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just made it on my own. It 553 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 2: was sort of me and an audio engineer and I 554 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 2: was doing all of the tracking at night in my 555 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 2: car and managed to get it out and we had 556 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: an incredible response to the first season. I think we 557 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 2: got more than a million listeners. So that was another 558 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: good early lesson of if you think you have a 559 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 2: really good story, sometimes you just have to make it 560 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: and put it out there. 561 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you stuck with it, because I've certainly 562 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: learned a lot from your reporting and it's just a 563 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: great addition to the space, and I thank you for 564 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: coming on Zero. 565 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for having me. 566 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: This is part two of our three episode series talking 567 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: with climate Storytellers. If you've not already listened to it, 568 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: check out my interview with climate fiction author Kim Stanley Robinson. 569 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: Next week, you'll hear from Dorothy Funtenberry about how to 570 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: tell a climate story for TV. 571 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 3: When people found out we were doing the show, they 572 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 3: were excited to come on board because they're thinking about 573 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 3: climate change and to think about and not be able 574 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 3: to act on it feels bananas, and so to actually 575 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 3: get to do something is really liberating. 576 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, 577 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on 578 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Send it to a friend or 579 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: someone who works in pr. Get in touch at zero 580 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: port at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd 581 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: and senior producer is Christine driscoll. Our theme music is 582 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: composed by Wonderly Special Thanks as always to Kira binrip 583 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: I am Akshatrati. Back next week.