Speaker 1: A group of high school students.
Speaker 2: High school students Elizabethan High School students started a project
Speaker 2: to research.
Speaker 3: A string of unsolved murders. Their research led to the
Speaker 3: identification of the killer. Investigators now have an answer to
Speaker 3: a thirty four year old question.
Speaker 4: Once you start getting.
Speaker 1: A few tips, or a few leads, or few.
Speaker 5: Identifications, then the cold case isn't so cold anymore.
Speaker 1: There's a pretty good chance he's still alive.
Speaker 5: Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out
Speaker 5: to be accurate.
Speaker 6: Redhead Killer profile male Caucasian, five nine, six hundred and
Speaker 6: seventy pounds, unstable home, absent father, and a domineering mother,
Speaker 6: right handed, IQ above one hundred, most likely heterosexual.
Speaker 5: There is no profile of this killer except for the
Speaker 5: ones the students created.
Speaker 7: Just because some of these women no longer have people
Speaker 7: to speak for them does not mean that they desire to.
Speaker 3: Not be so anymore.
Speaker 7: What if this guy's still alive?
Speaker 2: Like what becomes after us?
Speaker 3: This is Murder one oh one, Season one, episode six,
Speaker 3: Tying it all together. I'm Jeff Shane, a television and
Speaker 3: podcast producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong,
Speaker 3: and Andrew Arnold. Mister Campbell and his students were confident
Speaker 3: that Jerry John's surviving victim held the clues to the mystery.
Speaker 3: Mister Campbell called me with an exciting update.
Speaker 4: You're not gonna believe what I just found. It almost
Speaker 4: sounds like a country song.
Speaker 5: The woman I've been looking for for five years and
Speaker 5: I just found her.
Speaker 4: Who So the hero of our story is Linda.
Speaker 5: She was the lady who Jerry Johns attempted to kill.
Speaker 5: I mean, as far as I understand it, she stopped breathing,
Speaker 5: she was dead, and then she spontaneously revived on the
Speaker 5: side of the road. And because she was immediately able
Speaker 5: to go and get help and tell the police where
Speaker 5: he was and the car was driving and all that,
Speaker 5: he was arrested and put in prison for forty years,
Speaker 5: and of course that's where he died.
Speaker 4: And so without.
Speaker 5: Her and her will to live, none of this would
Speaker 5: have been possible. So, for example, the only way they've
Speaker 5: been able to relay him back to these other cases
Speaker 5: is because his DNA was found on Tina Farmer. The
Speaker 5: only reason they had his DNA in the system is
Speaker 5: because he went to prison on a felony charge for
Speaker 5: trying to kill her.
Speaker 3: And she fits very much into the victim profile.
Speaker 5: Correct, Oh yeah, she's she's red headed, she's twite, she's
Speaker 5: she's small, she's she's the right age.
Speaker 4: She was like early mid mid twenties.
Speaker 5: Her will to live, you know, and her tenacity is
Speaker 5: the reason why he's been able to be tied to
Speaker 5: all these murders. And I have looked for her for
Speaker 5: a long time, different ways, you know, social media and
Speaker 5: in different type of research places.
Speaker 4: But finally I was.
Speaker 5: Able to get on one of the research sites online,
Speaker 5: kind of ancestry research side, and combine that with some
Speaker 5: information I found in the case file that is public
Speaker 5: knowledge because you know, they took that case to trial.
Speaker 4: We were able to piece it together and I found her.
Speaker 3: Wow, And have you made contact yet?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 5: It's kind of like the dog who chased the car
Speaker 5: and you know, caught it. Like, wow, now that you
Speaker 5: know how to contact this person, Like, what do you say?
Speaker 5: You know, obviously she was you know, working at a
Speaker 5: gentleman's club, and she was in a tough situation, recently divorced,
Speaker 5: had a small child, and you know she's trying to
Speaker 5: make ends meet. Of course, worst night of her life,
Speaker 5: I'm sure almost dies, you know, meets meets a serial
Speaker 5: killer and survives. So, you know, on one hand, you
Speaker 5: probably think she's she's worked really hard to not run
Speaker 5: that and move on from it.
Speaker 4: But on the other hand, I think.
Speaker 5: Does she even know like what she means to this case,
Speaker 5: to all these women, to their families?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 5: She She probably doesn't, you know, because the point is
Speaker 5: nobody's paying attention to this case, nobody's putting all these
Speaker 5: these things together. And I don't even know if she
Speaker 5: realizes that the guy who almost killed her has been
Speaker 5: linked to this other murder and you know, we feel
Speaker 5: there's plenty of evidence that links him.
Speaker 4: To several more. So I don't even know if she
Speaker 4: knows that.
Speaker 5: And you know, but I think she deserves to know
Speaker 5: that without her, you know, none of this work would
Speaker 5: have been possible. And then I pulled some pictures off
Speaker 5: her Facebook and it's her.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just her, just just it's her.
Speaker 3: So what do you think what should we do about this?
Speaker 5: I mean, you don't want to bring up the worst
Speaker 5: part of somebody's life and make them relive it. But
Speaker 5: on the other hand, I've done a lot of work
Speaker 5: with people who have lost you know, children and stuff.
Speaker 5: And I've talked to people who've been through some terrible
Speaker 5: things like that, and what they say is like, you
Speaker 5: not bring it up.
Speaker 4: Isn't like I forgot it.
Speaker 5: You know, just because you didn't bring up my son
Speaker 5: didn't mean I forgot that one of my sons has passed.
Speaker 4: So I mean by not bringing it up, I.
Speaker 1: Don't know if you know, like I said, Oh, she had.
Speaker 5: Forgotten it until I brought it up. I don't think
Speaker 5: that's the case. Does she want to read it? Maybe not,
Speaker 5: But does she know like what her strength has been
Speaker 5: able to do for this case? You know, does she
Speaker 5: even know that she was like she was his last
Speaker 5: victim and because she was able to survive it, you know,
Speaker 5: her bravery and her courage and her strength like allowed
Speaker 5: you know, other families to know what happened to their
Speaker 5: loved one. And I think everybody deserves to know that,
Speaker 5: don't you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And even if she doesn't, you know, agree to appear,
Speaker 3: we can still tell that story and about her bravery,
Speaker 3: and you know, we'll figure out how to be respectful.
Speaker 3: But I agree, I mean, I think it's definitely worth
Speaker 3: a phone call to give her the option and just
Speaker 3: to introduce you know yourself. And like you said, she
Speaker 3: might not know any of this, which is you know,
Speaker 3: wild to think about, but certainly something she should be
Speaker 3: aware of.
Speaker 5: Yes, I agree with that. Give her the information and
Speaker 5: let her decide. And but her story is it's an
Speaker 5: amazing story. Like I have the picture that they took
Speaker 5: of her at the hospital and what she looked like.
Speaker 5: And I'm going through the hospital report, and she was
Speaker 5: blind for three days because he had choked her so badly.
Speaker 5: You know, she was put on a liquid dit for weeks.
Speaker 5: She couldn't even chew or swallow solid food, and like
Speaker 5: what she went through to, you know, to survive that
Speaker 5: and then have the bravery, of course to carry on
Speaker 5: with the police and help make that case against him
Speaker 5: and all that. And I can even see it, like
Speaker 5: when I read the report, she talks about how scared
Speaker 5: she is of him and others, and but you know
Speaker 5: the fact that she did that and she was part
Speaker 5: of putting him away, and then that led to you know,
Speaker 5: the students work and new breaks in the case and
Speaker 5: if it wasn't mempth with the DNA and that previous
Speaker 5: case and another thing I didn't even mention this, but
Speaker 5: in that case file, of course, Jerry Leon Johns uses
Speaker 5: her own T shirt, cuts it into strips and binds
Speaker 5: her with it, and eventually that's how he chokes her,
Speaker 5: a ligature made from her own T shirt. And then
Speaker 5: you know, you start looking at the Tina Farmer case,
Speaker 5: she was choked with ligature made from her T shirt.
Speaker 5: And you look at the Tracy su Walker case, they
Speaker 5: find cloth ligature with a similar nod in it beside
Speaker 5: her body, even though she'd probably been dead for maybe
Speaker 5: as long as four or five years. And then now
Speaker 5: there's other chain dos like the DeSoto County chain doe,
Speaker 5: which also was found with a ligature, and you know,
Speaker 5: if we couldn't have had that evidence, and like we have,
Speaker 5: we still have those same ligatures down here in the
Speaker 5: national archive, excuse me, in the state archives, and we've
Speaker 5: got pictures of those, and because of that we can
Speaker 5: compare those of the others used in different crimes and
Speaker 5: link him back to those, even if we don't have DNA.
Speaker 5: So like she's the lynch pin in the case. I mean,
Speaker 5: I don't know if she realizes, you know, she's the
Speaker 5: hero of this story and her bravery, like is what
Speaker 5: set all this stuff in motion? And even though that
Speaker 5: was like thirty five years ago. And I'll see if
Speaker 5: I can get up the nerve to call into and
Speaker 5: see how she feels about that.
Speaker 3: Up here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 3: Murder one O one later, mister Campbell dialed Linda's number.
Speaker 8: Hello, is this Linda? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, my name is Alex Campbell, and I'm a school
Speaker 5: teacher from down in East Tennessee. And actually one of
Speaker 5: the things I do is I let my students work
Speaker 5: on cold cases.
Speaker 2: And uh, okay you what.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm a school teacher in East Tennessee high school
Speaker 5: teacher and one of the things I do is I
Speaker 5: let my students work on cold cases as part of
Speaker 5: our studies. And I think your name might have come
Speaker 5: up in connection with a case in Knoxville in nineteen
Speaker 5: eighty five.
Speaker 1: Is that you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in Where do you teach?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 1: I teach you Elizabeth in high school?
Speaker 3: After switching her call to a landline for better service,
Speaker 3: mister Campbell conveyed just how important she was to the
Speaker 3: club's investigation.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I promise that I will keep this however you
Speaker 5: want it to be kept. If you want me to
Speaker 5: just keep it between me and you, that that'll be
Speaker 5: how we'll do it.
Speaker 1: And really it's just you know, I just went through.
Speaker 2: They put me through so much.
Speaker 1: I want to be honest with you.
Speaker 5: We have really been looking for a long time to
Speaker 5: find you, my students and I because I don't know
Speaker 5: if you realize it, but like you and I'm really
Speaker 5: emotional about it. It seems kind of funny, but like I
Speaker 5: think you've really helped save and help a lot of
Speaker 5: people through what you were able to do.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the only reason I was able to do
Speaker 2: it with know one that and I'm sure I saved
Speaker 2: when's lives. I mean, there's no reason for me to
Speaker 2: be alive. Have a good Lord, let me live.
Speaker 3: Mister Campbell filled Linda and on the work of the
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen class and the work that right Lad and
Speaker 3: Marley were currently doing. She was able to provide some
Speaker 3: interesting information.
Speaker 5: What I wanted to tell you. I didn't know if
Speaker 5: you kept up with with what had happened recently, but
Speaker 5: did you know that they had tied Jerry Johns to
Speaker 5: a murder of another lady?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she looked very similar to me that they
Speaker 2: somebody called me. A FBI agent called me a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago and told me. I didn't even know
Speaker 2: Jerry Johnson died, but he called me and told me
Speaker 2: that they used DNA and proved that he killed this
Speaker 2: other girl. They questioned me when it happened, right, you know,
Speaker 2: that hadn't There were dozens of girls that looked a
Speaker 2: lot like me, you know, and they called them the
Speaker 2: red head murders. And then the judge told them they
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to mention the red headed murderers anymore because
Speaker 2: it would mess up the case. The only case could
Speaker 2: be mine, you know, as long as they could try
Speaker 2: him on. So so anyway, I knew that there were
Speaker 2: a lot of other women that had died and none
Speaker 2: and he said there was a lady that they found
Speaker 2: their body after it happened. Now they there were I
Speaker 2: get FBI or TV whoever. These people are from all over,
Speaker 2: you know, all over the country, came together and met
Speaker 2: with me about and they had the women that there
Speaker 2: cases that were similar. In fact, the knot that he
Speaker 2: tied is evidently was a some sort of you have
Speaker 2: to be a space, I mean, it's a special knot
Speaker 2: like you learned to tie. And evidently each one that
Speaker 2: had that same tie. Har he's hot, just hard and
Speaker 2: and that's and oh god. Anyway, but he had his
Speaker 2: love book, they said, made it look like he was
Speaker 2: different places and he couldn't have killed those other women.
Speaker 5: See he had a brother too, Yeah, Wayne, Wayne, he
Speaker 5: went by the name Wayne, that was.
Speaker 1: His middle name.
Speaker 2: Well, he was with you. But now this FBI TBI
Speaker 2: whoever was talked to me last said they're pretty sure
Speaker 2: he knew nothing about it, even though they were together
Speaker 2: at you know, traveling together. So I don't know if
Speaker 2: they I mean, I don't know if they've done DNA
Speaker 2: testing on these other women or not. But there were
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of them that they questioned me about,
Speaker 2: and we said at this big, huge, long table, and
Speaker 2: there were photographs of all these women and some of
Speaker 2: them looked like photographs.
Speaker 8: Of the Wow.
Speaker 5: Well, the reason, one of the reasons I was kind
Speaker 5: of find you is that it seems like now there's
Speaker 5: a chance where he can be tied to maybe several
Speaker 5: of these murders, and these families can figure out, you know,
Speaker 5: who's responsible, and they can get some closure and the
Speaker 5: truth is it. It's decades if it doesn't happen. Now,
Speaker 5: a lot of the agents and everything I have already
Speaker 5: retired or passed on. The evidence has been lost.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the one that took care of me
Speaker 2: that he died Johnson, Larry Johnson, the name from there
Speaker 2: or is that the policeman.
Speaker 5: He was a TBI agent and he did a lot
Speaker 5: of work on the case. But maybe that was after,
Speaker 5: you know, maybe the fact, So I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I've spoken with him.
Speaker 5: But what I wanted to say was, and it's so funny,
Speaker 5: this might seem weird to you, but like I've poured
Speaker 5: my life into this for five years, trying to prove
Speaker 5: that he is responsible for many other people suffering in
Speaker 5: their families and just trying to get them some closure,
Speaker 5: and it seems like a really close Like I could
Speaker 5: tell you a lot of things, but what I really
Speaker 5: wanted to tell you was that this is a terrible
Speaker 5: it's a terrible, tragic story for a lot of people
Speaker 5: and a lot of families. But if there's a hero,
Speaker 5: it's you, and like your will to live, you know,
Speaker 5: is what got him arrested and kept him off the streets.
Speaker 5: And the DNA you know, that they took from him
Speaker 5: once he was put in prison, is what can help
Speaker 5: maybe some of these families. It's already helped some, but
Speaker 5: it can help the rest of these families figure out
Speaker 5: what happened.
Speaker 1: Who was responsible, and let them move on.
Speaker 5: And so anyway, it's just it's a real pleasure to
Speaker 5: talk to you. And you're such a strong lady, you know.
Speaker 5: And this might seem weird too, but for five years
Speaker 5: I've had your picture from your hospital report on my
Speaker 5: computer and every morning I see it and it reminds
Speaker 5: me I've got to keep working to try to help
Speaker 5: these other families kiss some justice. And your story is amazing,
Speaker 5: and you're the strongest woman I believe I've ever known.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, no, not true. But well, at the time,
Speaker 2: my husband's alive and I never told him what happened,
Speaker 2: and he's gone. Now I'm sorry. Is here for me
Speaker 2: to talk about it.
Speaker 5: My students and I are getting ready to present a
Speaker 5: case about the girl who was just identified. She was
Speaker 5: found very near Tina Farmer in Campbell County. And this
Speaker 5: girl disappeared from a town just right over from her,
Speaker 5: and yet they were found here eight hours drive away,
Speaker 5: right beside of each other. So we feel that he's
Speaker 5: probably connected to that one. Tina Farmer was pregnant and
Speaker 5: her baby died with her, and we think there was
Speaker 5: another murder. I don't know if you remember that one.
Speaker 5: It was in Green County in nineteen eighty five, right,
Speaker 5: They found her body right after your case. And so
Speaker 5: we think there's another victim in Green County and probably
Speaker 5: others in Mississippi. And so my students are going to
Speaker 5: be presenting to the police in Mississippi and to the
Speaker 5: police in Indiana, and they're trying to help them put
Speaker 5: it together because the TBI works cases in Tennessee, but
Speaker 5: they don't really share, you know, it's not really there
Speaker 5: is jurisdiction to think about people in Mississippi, so there's
Speaker 5: nobody helping these police agencies kind of connect it. So
Speaker 5: when I call Mississippi, they didn't even know that there
Speaker 5: was somebody who was, you know, harming women that everything matched,
Speaker 5: but it was just thirty minutes north in Tennessee and
Speaker 5: they hadn't even heard of it, and they didn't know
Speaker 5: there was a suspect.
Speaker 2: And I did talk to people in Mississippi and Alabama
Speaker 2: and numerous states, and like I said, Udip gets there everybody.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was in every paper in the country.
Speaker 2: My daddy heard about it, and he lived in Chicago,
Speaker 2: and he heard about it while I was in the hospital,
Speaker 2: so I mean from the he heard it on the
Speaker 2: newsh What.
Speaker 5: Has happened is all those detectives have retired or died
Speaker 5: and so and so they don't know anymore. When I
Speaker 5: talked to Mississippi, he said, I inherited this case. Somebody
Speaker 5: else had it, they retired. I've got it and I
Speaker 5: don't know anything about it. I wasn't even a police
Speaker 5: officer then. So, like we're trying to keep the attention
Speaker 5: on these cases because we are so close. With just
Speaker 5: a few DNA tests, I think a lot of these
Speaker 5: cases could be kind of finalized. And I've talked to
Speaker 5: family members. I talked to Tina Farmer's sister, I communicated
Speaker 5: with her niece yesterday and some different ones. And you know,
Speaker 5: it's hard knowing that your loved one is gone. I mean,
Speaker 5: that doesn't change that. But for example, I talked to
Speaker 5: a lady who was only like a year old when
Speaker 5: her mom went missing, and she said, you know, it's
Speaker 5: bad to know that your mom, you know, was murdered.
Speaker 5: But she said, I always thought my mom didn't come
Speaker 5: home because she didn't want me, And she said it
Speaker 5: was better to hear that she couldn't come home. Then
Speaker 5: she didn't want to come home. And I know, like
Speaker 5: it doesn't change the fact that the person's gone, but
Speaker 5: they still do want to know, like why didn't their
Speaker 5: loved one come home?
Speaker 1: And so we're working really hard.
Speaker 2: I know, we had a wife, he.
Speaker 5: Did, He had a wife and I and we've conversed
Speaker 5: with her and uh, same thing.
Speaker 1: She was just so shocked.
Speaker 2: But have you you've talked to her.
Speaker 5: Well, Uh, one of the guys who did the research
Speaker 5: for the podcast went down and spoke with her.
Speaker 8: Well, she.
Speaker 2: Got divorced after but when she went during the trial,
Speaker 2: she thought he was innocent. I guess, I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she she had no idea. She the whole family.
Speaker 5: He put on a show, and the whole family thought
Speaker 5: he was the nicest guy. But that's the way it
Speaker 5: is with people like this. They they they're very good
Speaker 5: at hiding themselves. But when that and from what I
Speaker 5: understand of the case, I've read your case file. I mean,
Speaker 5: at first he seems like a really nice guy, but
Speaker 5: whenever he lets his true self out, it's just it's,
Speaker 5: you know, it's monstrous.
Speaker 2: Well, one day I'll tell you, I'll tell you those
Speaker 2: you know, I'm in trouble to think, and I don't.
Speaker 2: It's time to think. I got to get it together.
Speaker 3: When Riley heard about the call, she was unsurprisingly very
Speaker 3: happy with the development.
Speaker 7: I am just driving home from practice. Had a very
Speaker 7: long day. It's Friday, Thank goodness. I'm so excited for
Speaker 7: the weekend. Words can't even describe how excited I am.
Speaker 7: But this week was a really good week. He's very hectic,
Speaker 7: but we had a very good day, or a very
Speaker 7: good week. Rather working with our case study, our victim profiles,
Speaker 7: also our teacher, mister Campbell, he was able to talk
Speaker 7: with Window School and get her perspective, which was I mean, wow,
Speaker 7: that was just honestly amazing. It's a once in a
Speaker 7: lifetime experience. I mean, she is really the only person
Speaker 7: that we know of that saw Jerry Leon Joon in
Speaker 7: that moment and survived to tell the tale. Glad to
Speaker 7: see him at his evil if showing his true colors.
Speaker 7: I guess is what I'm trying to say. She's the
Speaker 7: only person who saw who he truly was and lived
Speaker 7: to tell the tale. He thought he killed her. She
Speaker 7: saw firsthand how rude and savage and truly evil he was,
Speaker 7: and she can tell us about that. I think that
Speaker 7: is just insane. She doesn't live around here anymore, and
Speaker 7: I'm really excited to see where that leaves us. And
Speaker 7: the fact that she's open to working with us, talking
Speaker 7: to us about this, I think that is going to
Speaker 7: be an extreme game changer. And honestly, her coming forward
Speaker 7: and sharing her story. Who knows, there could be other
Speaker 7: survivors who don't know about Like we talked about previously,
Speaker 7: these women, they work in trades that might have not
Speaker 7: been something they wanted people to know. Some of them
Speaker 7: were sex workers, transient women. They would not have wanted
Speaker 7: to come forward. Maybe if they were and he they'd
Speaker 7: encounter cands through you know, getting hired and safe work,
Speaker 7: different things like that. But seeing Glenda come forward and
Speaker 7: hearing her tell her tale, who knows? This is my
Speaker 7: open big gate for so many other women who were like, yeah,
Speaker 7: I encountered this man who drove a truck and he
Speaker 7: tried to rape me and kill me, or he tried
Speaker 7: to kill me and strangle me, Like, we don't know
Speaker 7: what this could lead to. So I think that's awesome.
Speaker 7: Another statements, Really, it's been a big week. But something
Speaker 7: else that's been insanely awesome is we've got a not
Speaker 7: expert to look at the different ligatures that we're used
Speaker 7: on Linden, and mister Campbell is looking more into that
Speaker 7: to see if possibly he could go down to Nashville
Speaker 7: and take some better pictures of the knots, because the
Speaker 7: expert told us he identified one or two of the
Speaker 7: knots and he said he needs to see them in
Speaker 7: more dimensions, sus he's like the backside of them, different
Speaker 7: things like that. I'm really excited to see what happens
Speaker 7: if we could possibly identify any new or similar knots
Speaker 7: in two different ligatures of different victims. I think that'd
Speaker 7: be really cool if we can make a connection, say, oh,
Speaker 7: you know, Tracy Sue Walker had this kind of not
Speaker 7: in her ligature and Linda has the exact same kind
Speaker 7: of nons. Well, these kind of knots are commonly used
Speaker 7: with truck drive. I just think that would be that
Speaker 7: could tell us a lot about different cases. I mean,
Speaker 7: it's not an end all be all, but it's just
Speaker 7: more evidence that makes it even more convincing. It was
Speaker 7: great to see some of these things that we've been
Speaker 7: working towards and working for some do fruition and just
Speaker 7: get reassured by some people who have quite a bit
Speaker 7: more experienced than us that, Yeah, I'm very excited to
Speaker 7: see what the future holds and what else we can
Speaker 7: find out.
Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another quick break murder. One on one,
Speaker 3: in the hopes of tying everything together, the club spoke
Speaker 3: to world renowned not expert Lindsay Philipott.
Speaker 5: One of the things you said was on the picture
Speaker 5: I sent you of the leg at your you said
Speaker 5: that you could maybe make out what that knot was.
Speaker 5: You think that's a granny knot.
Speaker 8: I believe so.
Speaker 5: Yes, so that appears to be a granny knot.
Speaker 8: Twenty nine shows it most clearly.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So how sure are you? Like you just one
Speaker 5: hundred percent sure that's what that is? Yes, okay, And
Speaker 5: so that's a you say, that's a relatively easy knot
Speaker 5: for people to tie or learn how to tie.
Speaker 8: It's very easy because you just do the same thing twice.
Speaker 8: When you're making a granny knot, you either tie left
Speaker 8: over right and tuck it under and then do that again,
Speaker 8: or you tuck right under left and do it again.
Speaker 5: Now, I know you said it's pretty you know it's
Speaker 5: pretty easy to tire. I love people know how to
Speaker 5: tie it. But are there any applications or jobs for
Speaker 5: people tied a lot?
Speaker 8: For example, there are a number of places where non
Speaker 8: knock tires tie a lot of the same thing, because
Speaker 8: the old saying goes, if you can't tie the right knot,
Speaker 8: tie lots. Yeah, so people tend to repeat something if
Speaker 8: they think that it's working. Have you ever seen the
Speaker 8: Show's Survivor.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's been a while.
Speaker 8: And in that they generally have a number of knots
Speaker 8: that are used to hold things like bags or keys
Speaker 8: or something like that that people then have to undo.
Speaker 8: And in fact, what most of those are are overhead
Speaker 8: knots and half hitches.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this question.
Speaker 5: So I can see that there's hair wrapped up in
Speaker 5: this knot, is this a good knot to tie if
Speaker 5: you're going to strangle somebody? Because it doesn't sinch up,
Speaker 5: does it?
Speaker 8: It does sinch up on it? Jams.
Speaker 1: Okay, what does that? What does jam mean?
Speaker 8: It means it can't be undone easily.
Speaker 5: Oh, so this would be a good knot for people
Speaker 5: to tie if you're trying to strangle somebody.
Speaker 8: Well, it is and it isn't, you know. Depending on
Speaker 8: how well you want the knot to hold, then a
Speaker 8: jamming knot is a good not to have. However, if
Speaker 8: you want to be able to undo it again, then
Speaker 8: a jamming knot is not a good kno to have. Now,
Speaker 8: in this case, I'm assuming that there would be a
Speaker 8: need for having some sort of knot that jammed. Does
Speaker 8: that mean that the person that tied it knew that
Speaker 8: before they tied it? No, not necessarily anyway.
Speaker 5: Okay, So I actually interviewed the lady who this was
Speaker 5: used on, and he just left it on her body,
Speaker 5: and when she came to she said she had a
Speaker 5: hard time getting it undone. Does that sound like it fits.
Speaker 8: With Yeah, that's absolutely consistent. And one that's tied as
Speaker 8: tightly as that is, it's extremely likely that it would
Speaker 8: be very difficult to undo unless you had a stick
Speaker 8: or a screwdriver or some other metal implement that you
Speaker 8: could actually use to insert into the knot and then
Speaker 8: be able to lever it open. But basically, if I
Speaker 8: ever come across a knot that I want to undo
Speaker 8: and I find that it was a granny knot, I'll
Speaker 8: take a knife to it.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you this.
Speaker 5: I think I found online that you had been called
Speaker 5: as an expert sometimes in court cases or criminal cases.
Speaker 5: So in other killers who use ligatures like this, is
Speaker 5: this a common knot in that case?
Speaker 1: Or is this kind of an uncommon knot?
Speaker 8: I would say it's a common knot in knots of
Speaker 8: criminal passion. It's not a common knot where the individual
Speaker 8: that tied it is more completely aware of other forms
Speaker 8: of not that may be more convenient, maybe more speedy,
Speaker 8: maybe more convenient to tie.
Speaker 5: Okay, So I mean, can you give an estimate maybe
Speaker 5: on maybe how many cases have you have you consulted
Speaker 5: on like this before?
Speaker 8: I would say probably twenty maybe twenty five.
Speaker 5: Do you have any idea how often or not somewhere
Speaker 5: this is used like a percentage or anything.
Speaker 8: No, I would have to guess, and I really don't
Speaker 8: enjoy guessing.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I was just asking.
Speaker 5: I was just trying to understand maybe if this was
Speaker 5: common or uncommon as far as people who use, you know,
Speaker 5: tied ligatures is.
Speaker 8: I would say it's common, probably more than a half,
Speaker 8: but I have no data to back that up.
Speaker 5: But it looks like that that the part of the
Speaker 5: shirt that was torn off to make the ligature was
Speaker 5: like the next or something.
Speaker 1: It's like a ham.
Speaker 5: Is that what you're saying there?
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's something from a seam or other joining of
Speaker 8: two pieces of fabric, and that forms the stronger part
Speaker 8: of the fabric of a T shirt, whether it's the
Speaker 8: neck or the arm or the hammer around the bottom.
Speaker 8: If you're using a fabric of any sort, you'll look
Speaker 8: for whatever is the toughest part of that fabric, and
Speaker 8: the toughest part of the fabric even though it's technically
Speaker 8: weakened by the knots, it is strengthened by the folding
Speaker 8: of the fabric on either side and then the close
Speaker 8: and tight stitching that's used along it to be able
Speaker 8: to derive a relatively strong and relative is a very
Speaker 8: important word there, a relative strong ligature.
Speaker 3: Mister Philpott continued to explain the significance.
Speaker 8: Using the fabric itself by itself. If that were ripped apart.
Speaker 8: And you've undoubtedly seen scenes from movies and from Wild
Speaker 8: Wrestling Foundation people who tear their t shirt apart. The
Speaker 8: fabric itself tears very easily, but the seams don't, and
Speaker 8: as soon as it gets to a seam, that's where
Speaker 8: people have the greatest difficulty in tearing it apart. Therefore,
Speaker 8: that's the strongest part. Yeah, it makes sense from the
Speaker 8: point of view of, well, what's the strongest bit that
Speaker 8: I've got here, because I'm afraid of this tearing apart.
Speaker 8: So and then they tug on or handle the piece
Speaker 8: that's got the seam in it and take it from
Speaker 8: there to use the strength of the seam to form
Speaker 8: a relatively strong piece of ligature.
Speaker 5: There was one thing I wanted to share with you,
Speaker 5: and when I ask her, this was at least his
Speaker 5: second victim.
Speaker 1: His DNA was found on the.
Speaker 5: Other However, he was thirty seven or thirty eight at
Speaker 5: this time, and the FBI profile that we work with said,
Speaker 5: there's no way he started killing it at thirty seven
Speaker 5: or thirty eight, so you know there's probably more. And
Speaker 5: one of the reasons I'm asking is because there was
Speaker 5: another lady found very close She was from four hundred
Speaker 5: miles away, yet found very within two miles of the
Speaker 5: other victim that they found his DNA on and a ligature.
Speaker 5: She had been dead for probably six years, at least
Speaker 5: four years we know, and there was a ligature found
Speaker 5: around the neck the bones.
Speaker 1: What was left.
Speaker 5: So we're trying to do work to see if.
Speaker 1: You know he was involved with that one as well.
Speaker 5: So anyway your health on that has it has been
Speaker 5: really important.
Speaker 1: So I want to thank you for your time with this.
Speaker 8: You're very welcome. In most of the cases where ligatures
Speaker 8: are employed, if strangling is a part of the not
Speaker 8: time that's gone on, there would generally speaking be some
Speaker 8: collapse or other breakage of the hyoid bone, and that
Speaker 8: would be something that the medical examiner should have looked
Speaker 8: at and prepared in their report, and that may well
Speaker 8: be something further to look.
Speaker 3: At more on that next time. Murder one oh one
Speaker 3: is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Alex Campbell, Courtney Armstrong,
Speaker 3: Andrew Arnot and me Jeff Shane. Additional producing by Connor
Speaker 3: Powell and Gabriel Castillo. Editing by Jeff Twa and Davey
Speaker 3: Cooper Wassser music by Vancor Music. Murder one oh one
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