Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.
Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: superproducer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you.
Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
Speaker 3: want you to know. If you are joining us the
Speaker 3: evening this comes out, let us welcome you to Thursday,
Speaker 3: January thirtieth, twenty twenty five. It's one of the most
Speaker 3: exciting times of the week for US folks. In these
Speaker 3: chaotic days and evenings, we get to hear from the
Speaker 3: most important part of the show, which is you. We're
Speaker 3: gonna learn about bunkers. We're gonna talk about chimera and ethics.
Speaker 3: We're gonna we're gonna do some Bible studies. We're also
Speaker 3: going to talk about search engines and airplane doors, plastic.
Speaker 3: We're We're going to it is probably one of my
Speaker 3: favorite ones. At the at the very end, stick with us.
Speaker 3: We have an amazing joke for you, and we're gonna
Speaker 3: hype it up the entire time. We're gonna hype it
Speaker 3: so hard that no matter how excited you are about
Speaker 3: hearing a joke from one of your fellow listeners, you're
Speaker 3: gonna be even more excited by the time we get
Speaker 3: to it.
Speaker 2: And if we peek out the windows right now, there
Speaker 2: is snow in the ground in Georgia.
Speaker 4: Right now.
Speaker 3: Weird, it's a snowy night in Georgia. Uh yeah, we
Speaker 3: are coming.
Speaker 2: That's gonna be for the joke. By the way, Sorry, yeah, we.
Speaker 3: Can't hype this joke enough, but in tonight's listener mail program,
Speaker 3: we will attempt to you so quick check in, just
Speaker 3: for just for everybody who hasn't had the privilege of
Speaker 3: watching our fair Metropolis battle strange weather. Guys. I was
Speaker 3: thinking about this. I don't think we should say climate
Speaker 3: change anymore. Why I think we should say climate chaos?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay, certainly was climate chaos on the roads
Speaker 4: of Fair Atlanta, Georgia yesterday. We had another snow day
Speaker 4: the other week, and I think people took it very seriously.
Speaker 4: But Ben, you and I were even out in the
Speaker 4: world midday on some adventures for Ridiculous History at the
Speaker 4: waffle House Museum, which is a thing here in Atlanta.
Speaker 4: So it wasn't showing precipitation at that point midday. And
Speaker 4: even the folks that were kind of enough to give
Speaker 4: us the tour from waffle House pr waffle House Corporate,
Speaker 4: they were not taking this seriously. And it seems like
Speaker 4: a lot of other people didn't neither, because there were
Speaker 4: all these videos of cars just slip and sliding across
Speaker 4: the road in the early evening.
Speaker 3: I remember that moment when I was saying, hey, thank
Speaker 3: you so much much for letting us into this museum.
Speaker 3: It's not Davos level, but it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just found out one of the
Speaker 2: dads at the karate dojo where my son trains, is
Speaker 2: one of the top waffle House people. He's one of
Speaker 2: the top men exactly the waffles.
Speaker 4: He gets a third of the waffle secret recipe and
Speaker 4: then he carries the breast pocket.
Speaker 3: I love it. We have such a great time. Please. Obviously,
Speaker 3: being here in Atlanta, we are huge fans of waffle House.
Speaker 3: Check out our upcoming episode on Ridiculous History or upcoming series.
Speaker 3: I believe one of the things we will dive into
Speaker 3: is a favorite hobby horse of ours, which is the
Speaker 3: waffle house index. This has nothing to do with what
Speaker 3: we're talking about this evening, but oh gosh, what a time.
Speaker 3: We can't wait to we can't wait to explore that
Speaker 3: top waffle. I'm gonna start using top waffle. That's so great. Wait,
Speaker 3: your neighbor really has like he's he's in the waffle cabal.
Speaker 2: Oh no, just a father who happens to also have
Speaker 2: a son that trains at the same dojo where my son.
Speaker 3: Trains, a known associate of waffles. So yeah, that sounds
Speaker 3: a little red scare on my ends, and that's my bad.
Speaker 3: But let's guys, let's get to it. Let's learn more
Speaker 3: from what you are fellow listeners have shared with us.
Speaker 3: Where do we begin, Maybe I don't know, we're talking
Speaker 3: about this off air. Maybe we take a moment to
Speaker 3: explore something that's been on our minds across the United
Speaker 3: States and the world. A series of hand gestures.
Speaker 4: What do you say now, Yes, indeed, And we're going
Speaker 4: to go to a quick break and return with that
Speaker 4: very conversation. And we have returned with a message from
Speaker 4: Marvelous Marvin Medley's it's a mouthful with an extra M
Speaker 4: for added alliterative fun. And I'm just gonna go right
Speaker 4: into it because this is something that I think you know,
Speaker 4: is going to be really divisive for some folks. But
Speaker 4: we're just going to kind of tackle it in a
Speaker 4: as a matter of fact a way as we can.
Speaker 4: So here we go subject the salute. So, in my opinion,
Speaker 4: I don't understand how this is even in question. It
Speaker 4: was a Nazi salute. Also, I don't like that the
Speaker 4: fact I see it that way makes me the conspiracy theorist.
Speaker 4: Major media doesn't seem to be giving it much attention,
Speaker 4: and for me, that's terrifying. I assume y'all know exactly
Speaker 4: what I'm talking about. What are your takes? You can
Speaker 4: use this correspondence on here and you can call me
Speaker 4: marvelous Marvin Medley. As always, the void abides. You know, guys,
Speaker 4: when I kind of had a little bit of a
Speaker 4: head in the sad day, I just wasn't I was
Speaker 4: feeling a little overwhelmed with some various things in my
Speaker 4: personal life, and just in the state of the world
Speaker 4: and fires and all of the news has just kind
Speaker 4: of been bumming me out. So I had a bit
Speaker 4: of a media blackout day or a social media pause.
Speaker 4: The day of the election was also MLK Day, and
Speaker 4: we were off work and I was hanging with my family.
Speaker 4: But one thing that I couldn't ignore or avoid was
Speaker 4: this image video and stills of mister Elon Musk, the
Speaker 4: top tier gamer, and it seems to be right hand
Speaker 4: of incoming or newly elected President Donald Trump making a
Speaker 4: very alarming gesture with a lot of historical precedent, essentially
Speaker 4: putting his hand on his heart and then a straight
Speaker 4: out arm at an angle. And I just have a
Speaker 4: hard time believing that somebody with the level of media training,
Speaker 4: someone at the heights of you know, corporate America and
Speaker 4: politics now, would misconstrue a gesture like that. I don't
Speaker 4: know what it portends. I'm not trying to be alarmist,
Speaker 4: I'm truly not. I just do feel like that there's
Speaker 4: some there. It's hard for there not to have been
Speaker 4: some dog whistley intention behind them. Whether this is something
Speaker 4: that is represented in the entire administration at large, we
Speaker 4: certainly know there are followers of the neo Nazi ideology
Speaker 4: that are very much supporters of set administration. Whether this
Speaker 4: is an effort to appeal to them to have some
Speaker 4: common ground. Or whether this points too larger nefarious things
Speaker 4: in the wind, I cannot say, but I just know
Speaker 4: that I was alarmed by him doing that, not once,
Speaker 4: but at least twice. A lot of folks online are
Speaker 4: calling it a Roman salute, which I believe, guys, historically
Speaker 4: was what the Nazis co opted into that zig Heile sign.
Speaker 4: And a lot of folks are pointing to Elon Musk's
Speaker 4: kind of notorious media awkwardness and you know, hopping up
Speaker 4: and down like a small child, and various things that
Speaker 4: perhaps point to a form of autism. Perhaps there's a
Speaker 4: lot of people making excuses for this gesture, and I
Speaker 4: have a hard time buying any of that. But again,
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to ascribe meaning where there is none,
Speaker 4: but I know what that gesture represents, and it's hard
Speaker 4: to not take a little meaning from that. So I
Speaker 4: yield the floor. Guys. It's very flummixing the whole thing,
Speaker 4: but it's also it disturbs me.
Speaker 2: I would just say I encountered this via John Stewart
Speaker 2: on The Daily Show and a segment that that team
Speaker 2: created that for me it mirrored my personal feelings where
Speaker 2: you see it happen the first time, and you are
Speaker 2: you have some awareness of who Elon Musk is, and
Speaker 2: you know, especially in my case, I've watched him on SNL,
Speaker 2: you know, host SNL and be extremely awkward and even
Speaker 2: joke about how awkward he is. Right, that was the
Speaker 2: big joke in his monologue on SNL not that long ago.
Speaker 2: And the first time you see it and you hear
Speaker 2: the words he's saying about he is thanking the audience
Speaker 2: because it goes out to you, and he says those words,
Speaker 2: my heart goes out to you, and it does appear
Speaker 2: as though he gestures to his heart and then throws
Speaker 2: his heart out. Right. John Stewart in that segment, you know,
Speaker 2: even makes that comment, well, that was a little weird.
Speaker 2: Maybe you could have done it, you know, in a
Speaker 2: different gesture to do the same meaning with your hands,
Speaker 2: but you didn't. But okay, we'll give you the benefit
Speaker 2: of the doubt.
Speaker 4: Then hands even would have done the job, you know, like, haha,
Speaker 4: I open my arms to you, things like that.
Speaker 2: Right, he jokes about, maybe it's dabbing on the haters,
Speaker 2: and then I don't mean to just recount John Stewart's
Speaker 2: material here. It's just that that is essentially what's going
Speaker 2: through my mind as I am watching this occur, and
Speaker 2: he does it a second time behind him to the crowd,
Speaker 2: and upon seeing it the second time, it does feel
Speaker 2: a little more intentional. And it does feel because it's
Speaker 2: not the same thing as a Nazi salute, right, I
Speaker 2: think we have to say that a Nazi salute. I've
Speaker 2: seen the videos. We've gone through so much footage from
Speaker 2: World War Two over the course of this show, where
Speaker 2: we have watched, you know, think about all the video
Speaker 2: content we made. A lot of that's old Praliner archives,
Speaker 2: a lot of it's old military documented films, and you
Speaker 2: see Nazis saluting and it is a very specific thing,
Speaker 2: and it did not look exactly like that, but it
Speaker 2: looked so similar to that, or close enough to that,
Speaker 2: that it really did send a bit of a shockwave
Speaker 2: through me, thinking, how is it possible that somebody of
Speaker 2: that stature and power, and like, how could they do that?
Speaker 2: Why would they do that?
Speaker 3: At the risk of needing to refuse myself, I am
Speaker 3: adamantly anti fascism in all forms, and we can go,
Speaker 3: you know, we can point out to the excellent point
Speaker 3: you put there, Matt. We can point out the what
Speaker 3: I would call the hair splitting, maybe the tea leaf
Speaker 3: reading of what happens when some one who is maybe
Speaker 3: not super well uh suited to public speaking gets overwhelmed
Speaker 3: with emotions. Right, I just touched my chest like that,
Speaker 3: you know. Uh. This the question is, of all of
Speaker 3: the things one could have done, why do this specific thing? Uh?
Speaker 3: The the answers and body language are of course super easy.
Speaker 3: You could do your hand in that similar salute, right,
Speaker 3: you could do a Roman salute or a Bellamy salute,
Speaker 3: which I'll get to in a second, and you can
Speaker 3: just pop some peace fingers up there, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean. Now you're just Now you're just Nixon, which
Speaker 3: is a whole different back of badgers.
Speaker 4: Rock and roll horns, you know, if you wish, sure.
Speaker 3: A wild thumbs up, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Uh, big triangle, you know, why not?
Speaker 3: And just put it hard high. So there's also something
Speaker 3: that some of the reporting is forgetting, which is the
Speaker 3: Bellamy salute. Do you guys remember the Bellamy salute? It
Speaker 3: may have been a little before.
Speaker 4: I don't I don't think. I guess I just know,
Speaker 4: the typical military salute with the hand, you know, just
Speaker 4: you put the hand to the head and and go
Speaker 4: outward that way. Then the Nazi salute is sort of that,
Speaker 4: but to the chest right, I just I just wanted
Speaker 4: to clarify Matt's description of how it's different. Could you
Speaker 4: maybe point that out.
Speaker 2: It's specifics with the hand right, Ben.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's yeah, a direction of of how it's held. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So for historical context also, and I am not defending this.
Speaker 3: I am severely anti fascist, and I can't believe that
Speaker 3: became a bad thing to be in the last few years.
Speaker 3: But Bellamy salute spelled b E L L A m
Speaker 3: Y kind of like Bill Bellamy, the DJ from MVV. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: super relevant reference. The Bellamy salute was created as a gesture.
Speaker 3: It looks like it looks similar to the CKL the
Speaker 3: Nazi salute, and it was supposed to accompany the pledge
Speaker 3: of Allegiance that children recited in public schools in the
Speaker 3: United States. Yeah, just like you're doing, hand over heart right,
Speaker 3: hand out. The thing the thing that bugs I believe
Speaker 3: all of us, and I don't want to speak for
Speaker 3: all of us, but the thing that bugs all of us,
Speaker 3: I imagine, is that you could have done anything else.
Speaker 3: You could have done so many other things, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, Like, uh, we know that due to
Speaker 3: the way social media has rotted attention spans, people are
Speaker 3: incentivized to react to very quick video clips right or
Speaker 3: memified viral tableaus of a situation. So like Howard Dean
Speaker 3: was a politician who got sunk because what he had
Speaker 3: he had a yoppie yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't
Speaker 3: have the register for it, but you know, or there
Speaker 3: we go on those lines, there we go operatic and
Speaker 3: uh and so it's just poor decision making and definitely
Speaker 3: to your point, noel it is the Whistley. You can
Speaker 3: have problems with Elon Musk, but you can't call him stupid.
Speaker 4: I think that's right. And that's where I get, really,
Speaker 4: you know, just kind of icky about this whole thing.
Speaker 4: And I'm not trying to make any all inclusive statements here,
Speaker 4: you know, I just think that kind of alarmism is
Speaker 4: maybe just that in some ways, I don't know, And
Speaker 4: I'm like I said in the past, and I think
Speaker 4: the most recent Strange News episode, we're all just doing
Speaker 4: our best to navigate this stuff, and I just I'm
Speaker 4: trying my very best not to have a knee jerk
Speaker 4: reaction with this stuff. So I do want to just
Speaker 4: point out two perspectives, one from Ruth ben Yatt, history
Speaker 4: of professor at New York University, who said, historian of
Speaker 4: fascism here, it was a Nazi salute and a very
Speaker 4: belligerent one too. And then a counter perspective from the
Speaker 4: Anti Defamation League, which is an organization, of course, that
Speaker 4: is against anti Semitism. They said it seems that Elon
Speaker 4: Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusi usiasm,
Speaker 4: not a Nazi salute. Andrea Stropa, who is a former
Speaker 4: I guess Musk associate who has connected him with the Fara.
Speaker 4: Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney apparently posted a clip of
Speaker 4: Musk with this caption saying Roman Empire is back, starting
Speaker 4: from Roman salute. So there are, you know, a handful
Speaker 4: of perspectives. I'm just talking about how it affected me
Speaker 4: when I saw it, and I know it's also like
Speaker 4: there's a lot of images. It's just perfect for this
Speaker 4: kind of co opting. A freeze frame looks just straight
Speaker 4: up like a Nazi salute, whatever the intention was. So
Speaker 4: it's certainly not a very good pr move at the
Speaker 4: very least because it's getting memed all the help.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and there's alarm coming. I was flipping through
Speaker 2: Instagram earlier and I saw just a random reel of
Speaker 2: a German citizen just saying, hey, first time, I hope
Speaker 2: you know you see what's going on here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we really appreciate this marvelous Marvin alliteration aside, there,
Speaker 3: alliteration aside whatever. We appreciate this because it has been
Speaker 3: on the minds of a lot of people in a
Speaker 3: very diplomatically described, a very chaotic time. Right. We talked
Speaker 3: about it in the past. The secession of power is
Speaker 3: something that empires always quarrel with, and here in the
Speaker 3: United States, the successful passage of power is an extraordinary
Speaker 3: thing for it to occur peacefully. And you don't have
Speaker 3: to look far throughout the modern world or throughout history
Speaker 3: to see how easily this sort of stuff can go wrong. Now,
Speaker 3: of course, you know, I apologize for putting out an
Speaker 3: adamant opinion here. I'm far less interested in what I
Speaker 3: think you guys, I'm way more interested in what our
Speaker 3: listeners think because to your point, Noel, is this is
Speaker 3: this alarmism, right? Is this just reacting to something that
Speaker 3: is sort of manufactured, arguably to incite reactions. It calls
Speaker 3: to mind again broken record here calls to mind our
Speaker 3: conversations with Carl Miller about the way that online communication
Speaker 3: is sort of programming people to feel like they instantly
Speaker 3: need to react, but at the same time still on
Speaker 3: the fence. I don't want to diminish this stuff. Like,
Speaker 3: you know, none of us are fans of the Nazi Party. Sorry,
Speaker 3: if you are and you're listening, maybe not the show
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 4: Well, and here's the thing. The AP has a First
Speaker 4: of all, this is what Musk said in response to
Speaker 4: all of this brew haha. He said, everyone is hitler,
Speaker 4: attack is so tired, come up with new material essentially
Speaker 4: what he's saying. But here's the problem. The AP article
Speaker 4: is titled Musk's straight arm gesture embraced by right wing
Speaker 4: extremists or wardless of what he meant. And this is
Speaker 4: by Bernard Condon. And we have in response to this
Speaker 4: post from groups like White Lives Matter, which is a
Speaker 4: white nationalist groups, the white flame will rise again. Maybe
Speaker 4: woke really is Dead, was posted by white nationalist Keith
Speaker 4: Woods on X Right. When a commentator named Evan Kilgore
Speaker 4: posted on x did elon Musk just Hyle Hitler, we
Speaker 4: are so back, so dog whistle intentional or no, right,
Speaker 4: awkward gesture or no, this stuff matters and his sort
Speaker 4: of half hearted you know, denial isn't really even a denial,
Speaker 4: is it.
Speaker 3: It's a non nile, it's a non apology. It's a
Speaker 3: I mean again, everybody, it's just so easy to do,
Speaker 3: you know, if you're celebrating something, so easy to just
Speaker 3: do some peace signs, you know what I mean? Where
Speaker 3: As you said some rock and roll horns.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I should have known this would yield
Speaker 4: plenty of conversation. I did have another you know, I'm
Speaker 4: just gonna read it because I think it's a quick
Speaker 4: one and we can honestly give the floor to another listener.
Speaker 4: A listener by the name of the Millennial Boomer, had
Speaker 4: this to say about a couple of topics that we've
Speaker 4: covered in recent Strange News and Listener Mail episodes. Good evening, gentlemen,
Speaker 4: A wonderful show today. As always, I wanted to pop
Speaker 4: off a few quick things first being about the browser wars.
Speaker 4: As always, feel free to use any of this in
Speaker 4: your show. As you pointed out on the show, Edge
Speaker 4: is the default Windows browser built off Chromium like Chrome,
Speaker 4: so fundamentally the browsers have the same base structure. Edge
Speaker 4: actually beats performance of Chrome the majority of the time
Speaker 4: due to Google's vast data collection efforts. If you really
Speaker 4: want to subvert both browsers, you can download Chromium directly
Speaker 4: and have full control of the browser's settings. Many that
Speaker 4: Microsoft and Google lock you out of. This is great information.
Speaker 4: Firefox is sort of the last remaining major secondary browser
Speaker 4: out there, but much of the funding to Mozilla, the
Speaker 4: Mozilla nonprofit rather organization, comes from Google. I did not
Speaker 4: know that, so one has to wonder what the game
Speaker 4: play is there for Google. In the long run, Mozilla
Speaker 4: has slowly been adopting more Google friendly policies. My opinion
Speaker 4: is that they have to support another browser out there
Speaker 4: so that they don't have monopoly on the industry. Without Mozilla,
Speaker 4: Google is the sole shaper of the web, which is
Speaker 4: a scary thought. The other thing I wanted to address
Speaker 4: was the airplane doors. It's nearly impossible, if not impossible,
Speaker 4: for someone to open them. While at altitude and speed,
Speaker 4: the force pushing in on the door is many tens
Speaker 4: of thousands of pounds of pressure. At cruising altitude, it's
Speaker 4: something in the neighborhood of twenty thousand plus pounds of
Speaker 4: pressure on the door. Now, do failures happen, obviously, but
Speaker 4: in general, outside of landing and takeoff speeds, the force
Speaker 4: exertion on the door quickly outranges human strength potential. This
Speaker 4: is also good to know, millennial boomer. This will help
Speaker 4: me sleep at night and sleep on flights when I'm
Speaker 4: in the exit row. Finally, I love the thought of
Speaker 4: future civilizations, assuming there is any, looking back on our
Speaker 4: skeletons and wondering what all the plastics were about, especially
Speaker 4: if there's such an infra loss like we have with
Speaker 4: the ancient cultures we study today. When I was in college,
Speaker 4: my archaeology professor gave us a thought experiment about toilets.
Speaker 4: Imagine such a world where human waste removal is significantly different,
Speaker 4: especially if we become spacefaring and travel away and come
Speaker 4: back to ruins and all knowledge is lost of the
Speaker 4: current civilization. With things being so digital, that is entirely possible. Thus,
Speaker 4: leading to the future civilization, wondering why everyone had this
Speaker 4: porcelain thing in their homes. Would they think it's an
Speaker 4: altar to a god? Everyone has one. It must have
Speaker 4: had significance to everyone. Why the whole was that so
Speaker 4: they could make their offerings to the god. It's such
Speaker 4: a mundane object today, but with no knowledge of the
Speaker 4: use case hundreds of thousands of years from now, what
Speaker 4: was its purpose? It makes you think about the objects
Speaker 4: we find today that we're not sure of the use case,
Speaker 4: but that everyone in the past knew its function. Appreciate
Speaker 4: your work as always, the millennial boomer guys, I just
Speaker 4: thought that was all such good information. And I know
Speaker 4: we don't have a ton of time to chat this
Speaker 4: one through, but I thought it was worth dropping because
Speaker 4: really this is sort of stand on its own. I
Speaker 4: don't know if you guys had anything to add or
Speaker 4: any before we wrap, but I do thank you the
Speaker 4: millennial boomer.
Speaker 2: Those are great thoughts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you millennial Boomer. Yeah, I owe you and emails.
Speaker 3: We want to go ahead and be account of bill
Speaker 3: of buddies on that one. There are so many threads
Speaker 3: we can take this in. We would love to hear
Speaker 3: from you as well, fellow conspiracy realist, thanks for sharing that, Nolan,
Speaker 3: you know most portly mallenial Boomer, thanks for taking the
Speaker 3: time to write in because you're reading my mind on
Speaker 3: some of this search engine stuff.
Speaker 4: Oh geez, chromium As to mention the plastics and skeletons,
Speaker 4: I just think that's such a so rife for like
Speaker 4: the way science fiction writers kind of think about, you know,
Speaker 4: future civilizations finding remnants of the past, and it's just
Speaker 4: as perplexing as you know, some of the things that
Speaker 4: we find from ancient civilizations. Super cool. And also thanks
Speaker 4: to Dave for just breaking the ice on that salute.
Speaker 2: I think it was.
Speaker 4: Definitely worth talking about, and I hope that we looked
Speaker 4: at it from multiple angles. So we're going to take
Speaker 4: a quick break here a word from our sponsor, and
Speaker 4: then come back with more messages from you.
Speaker 2: And we've returned. We were jumping to the phone lines. Guys.
Speaker 2: Before we do that, gotta make a little I don't know, confession,
Speaker 2: will you hear my sins? Boys, I just have to
Speaker 2: admit that I was you know, I would have been
Speaker 2: a star player on Uncle Billy's Bible. Bonkers, Uncle Uncle
Speaker 2: Baby Billy's Bible Blonkers been a star player.
Speaker 3: I've always said that about you, dude man.
Speaker 2: About twenty two years ago, I would have taken everybody out.
Speaker 2: I would have been the king Bible bonkers. But I
Speaker 2: am not that anymore. And when we did our episodes
Speaker 2: on the Birth of Jesus, I went off of a
Speaker 2: bunch of information that was in my head that I
Speaker 2: didn't confirm in the moment that I didn't you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't do the fact checking in the moment, So
Speaker 2: I just kind of went off of what I remembered
Speaker 2: and I got something is wrong personally. So this next
Speaker 2: segment is our Uncle Baby Billy's Bible Bonker's Bible study.
Speaker 2: So we're going to hear from two people, oz Woman
Speaker 2: and Sleepy Stella. I think maybe we just play these
Speaker 2: back to back, uh, and then well we're going to
Speaker 2: read the Bible a little bit. You guys. Isn't that exciting?
Speaker 3: Always?
Speaker 2: All right? Here we go, Here we go. First up
Speaker 2: is oz Woman.
Speaker 5: Hey, this is oz Woman, Idaho. I'm listening more and
Speaker 5: you guys are talking about timeline theology. You guys haven't
Speaker 5: read all of the book. You haven't read all of Luke. Okay,
Speaker 5: it says that Gabriel came down to Mary and another
Speaker 5: angel went down to Joseph. Several days later, Mary came
Speaker 5: out as pregnant to Joseph. Joseph decided that rather than
Speaker 5: stone her or kill her, he was going to divorce
Speaker 5: her quietly, That's what it says in the Bible. And
Speaker 5: after he decided he was going to divorce her, that night,
Speaker 5: another angel came and spoke to Joseph. And it was
Speaker 5: after that speaking, but then they got married. And it
Speaker 5: shows in the Bible that Joseph did not know Mary
Speaker 5: as his wife until after.
Speaker 6: Her birth and her healing.
Speaker 5: So there you go, and this is oz woman, and
Speaker 5: yes you can use my name.
Speaker 4: What was the issue that we talked about in terms
Speaker 4: of the chronology, There was just there were slight differences
Speaker 4: between the Gospels.
Speaker 2: Yeah, differences between Luke and Matthew, two books in the Bible,
Speaker 2: just about those moments when the angels came to both
Speaker 2: Mary and Joseph, gave him the information and then how
Speaker 2: they dealt with it right, and specifically, what I got
Speaker 2: wrong was what the situation was between Joseph and Mary,
Speaker 2: you know, prior to, during and after the revelation.
Speaker 4: Also, I've always thought the immaculate conception was referring to
Speaker 4: the birth of Jesus, but is actually a concept that
Speaker 4: is associated with Mary being born without original sin.
Speaker 2: Wow, let's see. I didn't know that, And I think
Speaker 2: and I do wonder how much of that is different
Speaker 2: between what's taught in certain Christian sects versus Catholic sects.
Speaker 4: It's apparently not mentioned in scripture.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's an important point because we have
Speaker 3: I know, we're getting to our next conversation, right, but
Speaker 3: with this we do have to note that your denominational
Speaker 3: mileage may vary. Oh, it's an important point to remember.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and your translation may vary too. There are
Speaker 2: some very important things within Osma's message that we're going
Speaker 2: to address here in a second. But first of all,
Speaker 2: I guess just what we need to know is that
Speaker 2: there were two different visitations from angels according to the Bible,
Speaker 2: and one went to Mary first, and then another angel
Speaker 2: visited Joseph. There's a dream or something and a visitation
Speaker 2: that occurs for Joseph after he is made known by
Speaker 2: Mary that this is what has happened, because she was
Speaker 2: informed by a different angel Okay, let's continue on with
Speaker 2: Sleepy Stella's message because she gives us a little more
Speaker 2: information and specifically from a Catholic perspective.
Speaker 6: Hi, guys, this is Sleepy Stella. I'm listening to part
Speaker 6: one of your Jesus episodes, and I really appreciate you
Speaker 6: mentioning the perpetuation of miss Angle, because the story of
Speaker 6: a human woman being knocked up by a heavenly or
Speaker 6: a divine male is, you know, all over mythology, even
Speaker 6: before Christianity came about. Anyway, I didn't want to clarify something.
Speaker 6: I do not consider myself a Christian at this point
Speaker 6: or a Catholic. I was brought up in the Catholic staith,
Speaker 6: and I went to you know, Catechism, Sunday School, things
Speaker 6: like that, and we always learned that Mary was is.
Speaker 6: She was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 7: Before she married Joseph. She was engaged to Joseph, and
Speaker 7: in their little community wherever they lived, everyone knew that
Speaker 7: they were betrothed. And the reason that the Angel appeared
Speaker 7: to Joseph was to say, Hey, she's pregnant. He's going
Speaker 7: to be the son of God, but please go ahead
Speaker 7: with the wedding kind of make her an honest woman,
Speaker 7: so that she's not an unwed mother, and that's when
Speaker 7: the loyalty and the faith of both Joseph and Mary
Speaker 7: were tested. I think you guys are saying in this
Speaker 7: part one that Joseph and Mary were already married when
Speaker 7: she received the Holy Spirit and became pregnant. That is
Speaker 7: not how I learned it. But again, this is in
Speaker 7: Catholic Catechism when I was making my sacraments. Anyway, call
Speaker 7: me back if you'd like to discuss this. That's how
Speaker 7: I always heard it. They need to make sure that
Speaker 7: Mary was not ostracized by.
Speaker 6: Her community by becoming.
Speaker 8: Pregnant out of wetlock, even though Joseph was not the
Speaker 8: biological father. Basically he kind of had to sign the
Speaker 8: birth certificate kind of situation. So anyway, that's how I
Speaker 8: always learned it. Thanks for your show.
Speaker 7: I haven't called you guys in a long time, but
Speaker 7: I'm enjoying listening to this episode, and thanks.
Speaker 3: For what Bhi, thank you Sleepy Stella.
Speaker 4: Gosh, great information, right and very much stuff that I know.
Speaker 4: I grew up Methodists. I think you did as well. Matt.
Speaker 4: It seems like they sort of dumb it down a
Speaker 4: little bit. The version that you get in Methodist Sunday
Speaker 4: School and Catholicism has always been a real hung up
Speaker 4: on the details. Now, I don't mean that in a
Speaker 4: negative way. I just mean very focused on very specific
Speaker 4: chain of events, and I just feel like I kind
Speaker 4: of got the like you know, made for TV movie
Speaker 4: version of it, and my religious upbringing.
Speaker 2: Well you got to think, you're I was a kid
Speaker 2: for most of the time that I was studying the stuff,
Speaker 2: and it was a big part of my life. And
Speaker 2: you can imagine that there's a version of that that
Speaker 2: goes to you know, the children's church thing you go
Speaker 2: to and then the youth group that you go to.
Speaker 2: They are very different versions of this probably that get
Speaker 2: taught to you, and then that gets stuck in your
Speaker 2: head the way they did get stuck in my head.
Speaker 2: The complexity of being betrothed but not yet married and
Speaker 2: then making that decision to go along with everything that's happening,
Speaker 2: as we talked about in the episode, is so complex,
Speaker 2: so just it's an intense moment. It's an intense thing
Speaker 2: to do, right, so to teach kids that you just
Speaker 2: maybe change it a little bit I'm imagining if the idea.
Speaker 4: Even of receiving the Holy Spirit and not handled with
Speaker 4: tact could certainly be a very difficult thing for a
Speaker 4: kid to understand.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so guys, if you don't mind, I've shared
Speaker 2: the document on here and I figured we could maybe
Speaker 2: round robin some Luke and Matthew. Is that absolutely?
Speaker 3: Do you want to do, Matthew or do you want
Speaker 3: to profile you?
Speaker 6: Hey?
Speaker 2: So, here we go. This is the new International version
Speaker 2: of the Bible via the Bible Gateway or Bible Gateway.
Speaker 4: I never knew what that stood for, matt I always
Speaker 4: see NIV on on certain editions.
Speaker 3: So thank you for the international version.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's the version I just gave to my son.
Speaker 3: It's a very popular one.
Speaker 2: I had my name on it.
Speaker 3: All right, here we go, man, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: This is Luke one twenty six through thirty eight, starting
Speaker 2: with twenty six in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.
Speaker 2: Don't worry about Elizabeth for this, But that is an
Speaker 2: important part of the Bible.
Speaker 3: But that's all there. What you said is all in there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's Elizabeth pregnancy. Don't worry about that. Now we'll get
Speaker 3: to Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: She's right. It comes in the story later continuing, God
Speaker 2: sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
Speaker 2: to a virgin pledged to be married to a man
Speaker 2: named Joseph. A virgin pledged to be married pledged to
Speaker 2: be married the man named Joseph a descendant of David.
Speaker 2: The virgin's name was Mary.
Speaker 3: The angel went to her and said, greetings, you, who
Speaker 3: are highly favored. The Lord is with you.
Speaker 4: Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what
Speaker 4: kind of greeting this might be. But the Angel said
Speaker 4: to her, do not be afraid, Mary, you have found
Speaker 4: favor with God.
Speaker 2: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and
Speaker 2: you are to call him Jesus.
Speaker 3: He will be great and will be called the Son
Speaker 3: of the Most High. The Lord God will give him
Speaker 3: the throne of his father.
Speaker 4: David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever. His
Speaker 4: kingdom will never end.
Speaker 2: This is the really important part. How will this be,
Speaker 2: Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin.
Speaker 3: The angel answered, the Holy Spirit will come on you,
Speaker 3: and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Speaker 3: So the Holy One to be bored will be called
Speaker 3: the Son of God. And we're gonna skip some of
Speaker 3: the Elizabeth stuff, right, matt Yeah.
Speaker 2: We're skipping over Elizabeth. Sorry Elizabeth. And finally here this
Speaker 2: is verse thirty eight. I am the Lord's servant. Mary answered,
Speaker 2: may your word to me be fulfilled? And then the
Speaker 2: angel left her. So that's the moment everything we just
Speaker 2: read there is the moment the angel Gabriel went to
Speaker 2: Mary and gave her that news, right, the good news,
Speaker 2: the messed up news, what the heck news? That was
Speaker 2: that part. Now we got to jump to Matthew again
Speaker 2: in the new International version, this is Matthew one eighteen
Speaker 2: through twenty five to get some insight into how what
Speaker 2: was Joseph doing, what happened to Joseph, and how did
Speaker 2: he find out, and also to talk about the relationship
Speaker 2: at the time, because this is where we find that information.
Speaker 2: So let's begin. This is verse eighteen. This is how
Speaker 2: the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about. His mother
Speaker 2: Mary was pledged pledged to be married to Joseph, but
Speaker 2: before they came together, she was found to be pregnant
Speaker 2: through the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3: Because Joseph, her husband, was faithful to the law and
Speaker 3: yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace.
Speaker 3: He had in mind to divorce her quietly, which is
Speaker 3: a very big deal at that time.
Speaker 4: Wow, And it's also that's interesting.
Speaker 3: We had a crisis of faith.
Speaker 2: Isn't it weird to use the term divorce because they're
Speaker 2: betrothed at this moment, right, they're not married.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 3: It's a translation or a translation choice, i should say,
Speaker 3: which these adaptations are riddled with.
Speaker 4: So you're saying, man, he's having a crisis of faith
Speaker 4: at this point because he does not yet understand the
Speaker 4: magnitude of her being pregnant.
Speaker 3: It's like, what is the right thing to do? What
Speaker 3: is the most correct, most righteous path of action? And sometimes,
Speaker 3: especially when you're in the trenches amid situations like this,
Speaker 3: can be very difficult to see the broader horizon.
Speaker 4: Well, this is before he has a vision though, Yes,
Speaker 4: right before, Yes.
Speaker 2: This is the test of faith that our callers are
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 4: Exactly, he could have just jumped ship right away, but
Speaker 4: instead he was dwelling on it. He actually slept on it.
Speaker 2: It would seem exactly that's exactly.
Speaker 3: What he did. Let's get to you, let's get to it, man.
Speaker 4: You want to take us to verse twenty Sure, so
Speaker 4: he is considering. After he considered this, an angel of
Speaker 4: the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph,
Speaker 4: son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary
Speaker 4: home as your wife, because what is conceived in her
Speaker 4: is from the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2: She will give birth to a son, and you were
Speaker 2: to give him the name Jesus, because he will save
Speaker 2: his people from their sins.
Speaker 3: All right, I don't want to editorialize too much, but
Speaker 3: I love how this next couple verses. It feels like
Speaker 3: there's a quick aside, like someone leans in and faces
Speaker 3: the camera and says, all this took place to fulfill
Speaker 3: what the Lord had said through the prophet. And then
Speaker 3: back to the story, the virgin will conceive and give
Speaker 3: birth to a son, and they will call him a Manuel,
Speaker 3: which means God with us.
Speaker 4: When Joseph woke up, he did what the Angel of
Speaker 4: the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as
Speaker 4: his wife.
Speaker 2: But as was stated by our callers, this is verse
Speaker 2: twenty five, but he did not consummate their marriage until
Speaker 2: she gave birth to a son, and he gave him
Speaker 2: the name Jesus. So yeah, there you go. There, there
Speaker 2: is what the Bible says occurred, right, at least according
Speaker 2: to that one version in translation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and while the translations may differ, right, and while
Speaker 3: people have spent centuries exploring different connotations and implications of translation,
Speaker 3: that's the gist of the story, correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and that is not off the top of
Speaker 2: anyone's dome. I e me, that is what it actually states.
Speaker 2: So chapter and verse, Yeah, there you go. And you know,
Speaker 2: all this stuff is so complicated and based in faith anyway,
Speaker 2: like even to the writing of the world that we
Speaker 2: just stated out loud, right, and then whether or not
Speaker 2: you or how you feel about those words and their
Speaker 2: meaning and everything, and that is your own thing, right,
Speaker 2: So there you go. I think that's it for this section.
Speaker 2: Let's hear a word from a sponsor and we'll be
Speaker 2: right back with more messages from you.
Speaker 3: And we have returned, Ah what wonders to share with
Speaker 3: you which have been shared with us via our fellow listeners.
Speaker 3: We're not going to get to everything, So, fellow conspiracy
Speaker 3: realist gentlemen, I propose a choice. Pick a number one through.
Speaker 3: Pick a number one through. Oh gosh, I love this game.
Speaker 3: One through five hundred thousand.
Speaker 4: All right, that picks three hundred and ninety nine thousand,
Speaker 4: two hundred and fifty three.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, we're gonna go so with a quick
Speaker 3: set up for a larger conversation from our pal Griffin. Griffin,
Speaker 3: the Void reached out to you thanks to your excellent
Speaker 3: correspondence earlier. We'll share this real quick because I think
Speaker 3: it's going to be a rich, fertile soil for us
Speaker 3: to explore together mourning gents, says Griffin. You can call
Speaker 3: me Griffin, says Griffin. I was just listening to your
Speaker 3: listener mail segment where you briefly touched on the possibility
Speaker 3: of growing human organs and animals for transplant. I attempted
Speaker 3: to write an ethics paper about this, maybe close to
Speaker 3: twenty years ago. At this point, it's an area of
Speaker 3: fraught with ethical issues. I understand the desire to end
Speaker 3: any organ shortage to mitigate the suffering of people around
Speaker 3: the world. Audits surface, it really appears to be a
Speaker 3: no brainer. Where I get stuck at is at what
Speaker 3: point do these animal donors have rights of their own?
Speaker 3: Stay with me, This is into a letter from PETA
Speaker 3: pause here, Griffin We actually got some really nice letters
Speaker 3: from Peta. We had some pretty great correspondence, which I
Speaker 3: believe we shared on air. Anyway, Griffin continues, and this
Speaker 3: is where it gets quite fascinating. Simply perform a thought experiment,
Speaker 3: says Griffin. Assumed that we've modified a pig to grow
Speaker 3: organ safe for human transplant, essentially creating an animal that,
Speaker 3: short of skin and bone structure, is human in every
Speaker 3: other way. A human in a pig bag points to
Speaker 3: you for the creative writing there. Now, at what point
Speaker 3: are those pigs hitting a threshold whereby they should be
Speaker 3: considered human and afforded the rights and considerations that we
Speaker 3: would give to every other human. This is my problem
Speaker 3: with it, says Griffin, because I found I could not
Speaker 3: come to an answer. The end result of this science
Speaker 3: is organ farms full of hybrid animals. It's distressing to
Speaker 3: consider that they may be human enough that the moral
Speaker 3: consideration that one human life is worth more than one
Speaker 3: animal life would need to be considered a side off. Griffin. Jeez,
Speaker 3: it's something that we've quarreled with, right, It's something that
Speaker 3: I don't know, Griffin. We wrote back to you with
Speaker 3: perhaps an overly thorough response there, But there's a lot
Speaker 3: to it, you know, guys. Do you guys ever think
Speaker 3: about that? Like? Is there all right? Let me set
Speaker 3: up this way, so Griffin, please send us your paper
Speaker 3: if you return to it. We always love reading reading
Speaker 3: the things that our fellow listeners create. In our response
Speaker 3: with you, we talk about the ethical foundations of this conversation.
Speaker 3: And first off, I don't know about you, guys, but
Speaker 3: I think this is going to become increasingly more concrete
Speaker 3: as time goes on. Like I think the I think
Speaker 3: the chimera organs are on the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, aren't they being worked on? They yet? I remember
Speaker 2: seeing videos about this with rats and human ears.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, years ago, yeah yeah, And it wasn't the
Speaker 3: inner workings of the ear. It was just the fun
Speaker 3: part that gets cauliflowered, except if someone clocks you. And
Speaker 3: then also we know that there were heart transplants poresine
Speaker 3: or pig heart transplants, and that led to people living
Speaker 3: longer than they would have. Unfortunately they did expire after
Speaker 3: the transplant, right, so they're not alive today.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It feels like it is going to happen at some point.
Speaker 3: But our argument here is maybe maybe needs to begin
Speaker 3: with the two distinct and sometimes mutually exclusive philosophical origin stories.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: One idea that is oversimplifying is that a all higher
Speaker 3: forms of life deserve the same right as the human animals, Right,
Speaker 3: that's number one. Number two is a little more nuanced
Speaker 3: and says the crucial difference ethically hinges on the complexity
Speaker 3: of the brain. Right, So a chicken is not gonna
Speaker 3: is not going to figure out Project Willow and quantum
Speaker 3: proof computing or something like that. However, and that's a
Speaker 3: shout out to you, Baron, Eaton. We could say that
Speaker 3: a corvid or the right kind of cephalopod may be
Speaker 3: close enough to what humans experience cognitively that they should
Speaker 3: be afforded the same rights, you know, feeling pain, feeling regret,
Speaker 3: knowing people, missing people, or other you know, members of
Speaker 3: your community. I don't know, I think that is those
Speaker 3: those points seem kind of distinct, right they.
Speaker 2: Do, They certainly do. But I'm just I took a
Speaker 2: look at my dog, oh, sitting on a bed over there,
Speaker 2: and just thinking, well, dang, I mean, I think I
Speaker 2: see a lot of the emotions in her. Course, I
Speaker 2: am the human that's tesked with keeping her alive, but
Speaker 2: in the same way. I don't know we've had those
Speaker 2: discussions animal intelligence and plant intelligence. I think you've had
Speaker 2: those like those really gosh, these when you get down
Speaker 2: into it, like how would you possibly give full human
Speaker 2: rights to all higher order animals? Like how could you
Speaker 2: even do it?
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, the concept of legal personhood, which argues that
Speaker 3: some non human life forms, whatever they may be, have
Speaker 3: evolved to the point that they should, you know, be
Speaker 3: counted as humans legally. It's a weird definition because it's
Speaker 3: kind of like what we talked about with the disappearance
Speaker 3: of Ambrose Small is legally dead for a while, and
Speaker 3: then eventually they say is really dead. It's nuts because
Speaker 3: it reminds us of something we didn't get to in
Speaker 3: strange news, you guys, this is a hobby horse for
Speaker 3: us for many years. Elephants legally can no longer pursue
Speaker 3: their release from the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. It
Speaker 3: went all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court.
Speaker 4: Wow, I did see that headline. Actually, it's pretty wild.
Speaker 3: I can't wait for the law and order on this one,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, who's going to play the
Speaker 3: elephant dun dune.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna say, Willem Dafoe perfect, perfect, or Gary Oldman
Speaker 4: who may have Willem Dafoe is kind of always Willem
Speaker 4: Dafoe except when he played Usperazio that time, but he
Speaker 4: isn't really known for his transformation. You're right, Oldmen is
Speaker 4: a much better pick.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I could see all I could see
Speaker 3: all of it. But all right, So critics of this,
Speaker 3: we'll call the move to free the elephant's pr stunt,
Speaker 3: but supporters of not putting these kind of animals in
Speaker 3: zoos will say it's a moral necessity and legal person
Speaker 3: hood is It's a concept that we see in multiple countries.
Speaker 3: It's going to recur as time goes on, and I
Speaker 3: think it will only accelerate and the stakes will raise
Speaker 3: with each passing moment because the natural habitats where these
Speaker 3: animals could reside are quickly disappearing, you know. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 3: zoos aren't great. You know, I'll never forget the various
Speaker 3: times we've hung out. I think maybe we met the
Speaker 3: same guy in Atlanta who called our local zoo an
Speaker 3: animal prison or animal jail. Did you guys ever meet
Speaker 3: that guy.
Speaker 4: No, but I've certainly heard that term thrown around, and
Speaker 4: there's animal rights groups that seem to feel that way.
Speaker 4: I think we have mentioned often on this show that
Speaker 4: our zoo, as well as the aquarium here in Atlanta,
Speaker 4: are kind of focused on rescues and animals that wouldn't
Speaker 4: survive in the wild because of various injuries or that
Speaker 4: they would be ostracized, et cetera. So there's something to
Speaker 4: that in a conservation kind of way. I do not
Speaker 4: care for the idea of zoos as like amusement parks,
Speaker 4: you know, and animals on display simply for entertainment purposes.
Speaker 4: If there is a component like that's obviously what pays
Speaker 4: for these conservation efforts. People buying tickets to the zoo,
Speaker 4: and I think that's great, but I do kind of
Speaker 4: prefer personally for there to be that conservationist component.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just remember how fun the zoo was with
Speaker 2: my son when he was young, and it was always
Speaker 2: a learning opportunity.
Speaker 3: Also, I'll say it, man ethics society, where are you
Speaker 3: going to have the other opportunity to witness firsthand these
Speaker 3: amazing organisms? You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: I mean, I went to the Animal Kingdom last year,
Speaker 4: maybe two years ago at Disney, and there's a Safari
Speaker 4: ride and I don't know what their deal is where
Speaker 4: these animals come from, but it was incredible. It was
Speaker 4: this vast open area and all of these zebras and
Speaker 4: it was a really good day. A lot of times
Speaker 4: they're hiding, but they were all out. And the people
Speaker 4: who are giving the tours and these like kind of
Speaker 4: buses that can even drive through pretty deep water. We're
Speaker 4: clearly just absolutely, you know, passionate about these animals. There's
Speaker 4: no question there. So again, I don't know the deal
Speaker 4: with these animals and how Disney acquires them, but I did.
Speaker 4: You're right to your point, Matt. Probably not going to
Speaker 4: go on African Safari anytime soon, but this was kind
Speaker 4: of the next best thing.
Speaker 2: See. But are the rhinos true cast members?
Speaker 3: Yeah right, you know, Oh boy, check out our Disney
Speaker 3: until they pull their heads off.
Speaker 2: Oh no.
Speaker 3: So that's our first axiom, right, our beginning point. What
Speaker 3: we would take to be true in this argument is
Speaker 3: that all higher forms of life deserve the same rights
Speaker 3: as human animals. In theory, that's great, it is true
Speaker 3: and noble. However, in practice it has never happened, and
Speaker 3: we have to remember that most humans don't have the
Speaker 3: rights that we like to say most humans have, right. Right.
Speaker 3: The second axiom is, you know that idea of how
Speaker 3: complex is the brain? Right? Are you capable of metacognition?
Speaker 3: Are you capable of art abstraction? And do you miss
Speaker 3: things when they're gone? Can you see an invention and
Speaker 3: replicate it? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. There's a
Speaker 3: lot of misinformation here because a lot of non human
Speaker 3: animals make tools. And this is where we get to
Speaker 3: the idea that that you're talking about, Griffin, the argument
Speaker 3: that creating a non human animal with discrete human compatible
Speaker 3: components is helpful. Right, it would undoubtedly save human lives.
Speaker 4: But Ben, do you think that would also maybe change
Speaker 4: some of the perspective around animal rights just in general,
Speaker 4: Like like, since there are hybrids, now, does that mean
Speaker 4: the non human animals maybe attain some more robust rights?
Speaker 1: Hell?
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, I'm just wondering if you changed the lay
Speaker 3: of the land. You know, I think it's great foreshadowy.
Speaker 3: So this is not step ad in. So I am
Speaker 3: not a neurosurgeon, thank goodness, but we know that the
Speaker 3: brain in all these living things, it is the headquarters
Speaker 3: of the nervous system and therefore organ interaction. So it
Speaker 3: seems like a tall milkshake for us to claim that
Speaker 3: changing the organs of a living creature would not somehow
Speaker 3: result in secondary changes upon the brain. So how many organs,
Speaker 3: how many systems can you sort of humanize before the
Speaker 3: brain starts to humanize as well? Does that make sense?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and we talked a lot about the humanized models,
Speaker 2: as they called them, of rats and mice, right and
Speaker 2: some of these other animals that already have their DNA
Speaker 2: altered so that they are more human like. And as
Speaker 2: you're saying, what does that do to the cognition of
Speaker 2: that creature?
Speaker 3: I love it because when you say that on a
Speaker 3: lighthearted note, that makes me remember the excellent videos that
Speaker 3: I will consistently go back to of rats enjoying their lives,
Speaker 3: like rats being tickled. Rats are ticklish. I don't know
Speaker 3: if you guys.
Speaker 4: Squirrels some amazing videos of like squirrels reacting to trauma,
Speaker 4: like I saw one the other day of squirrel grabbing
Speaker 4: their heart like, oh, like out of surprise, like a
Speaker 4: Disney cartoon character. You know, I mean there are They
Speaker 4: are able to process complex emotions. There's no question about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also I wanted to shout this out the
Speaker 3: Top Tier video if you have never seen it, there
Speaker 3: was a study teaching rats to drive and they love it.
Speaker 3: They're all about it. Ares, But are they having fun?
Speaker 3: You know? Are they getting out there? They super duper
Speaker 3: are We also know that I've read too much rat science.
Speaker 3: We also know that rats musical preferences change on based
Speaker 3: on the amount of cocaine administered to them. Yeah, who
Speaker 3: got the grant for that one? You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Well, they probably got a pardon from George W. Bush.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, this is science, there it is.
Speaker 3: But congratulations to whomever helmed that study, because you must have.
Speaker 3: You must have rolled a critical success on pitching ideas
Speaker 3: with charisma. We are admittedly consummate omnivores here on this show.
Speaker 3: We are well aware of the horrors inherent and factory
Speaker 3: farming and livestock industries as they stand today. But I
Speaker 3: will posit to this question about what makes a human
Speaker 3: a human right, I would posit that this becomes more
Speaker 3: immediate when we see a race between two biomedical breakthroughs
Speaker 3: and it's very much ticking clock here. Which will win
Speaker 3: the race? Is it going to be the creation of
Speaker 3: Kaimer destined for death? Like we grew this pig because
Speaker 3: it has pork chops, but we also grew it because
Speaker 3: as a heart, you know what I mean, or a
Speaker 3: kidney or what's what's a funny organ? A clean there
Speaker 3: we go, nailed it, well done? Yeah?
Speaker 9: Well?
Speaker 2: And one of the cool things about this, and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna give you a proposal here. One of the cool
Speaker 2: things about this is that the organs are often grown
Speaker 2: on the exterior of these animals. So what if there
Speaker 2: was a way to remove the organ that was grown,
Speaker 2: save the animal, and now the animal can live a life.
Speaker 2: What if with every organ grown you get an adopted
Speaker 2: animal h.
Speaker 3: Very like Toms of Maine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or what if the whole the whole trial period
Speaker 2: at the end, you have to take care of the
Speaker 2: animal for the two months prior to getting your getting
Speaker 2: the organ installed. So it's up to you whether or
Speaker 2: not you keep that animal in a happy, healthy place.
Speaker 3: Sure, welcome to the least we can do. Well, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean? You know this is the other
Speaker 3: thing too, right, the other like the idea of growing
Speaker 3: animals purposely for these organs. And I love your idea there, Matt.
Speaker 3: It's not that different, coldly put, from the way that
Speaker 3: people are raising livestock today, right. The difference is only
Speaker 3: the end use, which is horrific to say, but very true.
Speaker 3: The other thing racing towards the finish line of technology here,
Speaker 3: and I would argue triggering a form of path dependence
Speaker 3: is the creation of just purpose made, manufactured replacement organs. Hey, hey,
Speaker 3: says the person. I've got a bum ticker. I have
Speaker 3: certain maybe physical or philosophical, or ideological or spiritual limitations
Speaker 3: that do not allow me to have a poreside heart
Speaker 3: inside of me. So here's some of my DNA. You
Speaker 3: guys have a great weekend, and then just three D
Speaker 3: print a new heart for me. Something like that's gonna happen.
Speaker 3: It may be more expensive, but I posit this. Whatever
Speaker 3: the breakthrough is, whatever path dependence occurs, and there will
Speaker 3: be some sort of it. What about this. We talk
Speaker 3: about replacing a human organ often, right, because humans are
Speaker 3: super into not dying. What happens when you need to
Speaker 3: replace a brain. To go back to the idea or
Speaker 3: building on the least, we can do or the least
Speaker 3: you could do. LLC picture of this kind of Faustian
Speaker 3: bargain or this poison pill deal. What do you do
Speaker 3: in a world where your loved ones may die but
Speaker 3: they could have a copy or fasimile of their consciousness
Speaker 3: put in a new physical body. Right now, we usually
Speaker 3: think of that being robots, right, or some kind of
Speaker 3: online similacrum. But here's the gallows humor. How about this.
Speaker 3: What if the replacement does become possible and they say, ah,
Speaker 3: your organs are too riddled with problems. We can replace
Speaker 3: you know, your brain. We can make a copy of
Speaker 3: you in a new thing. And you say, yes, doctor,
Speaker 3: please save me, And they say, all right, due to
Speaker 3: the constraints of current biomedical research, your consciousness can be replicated.
Speaker 3: We can save your life, but you will be inside
Speaker 3: the body of a pig. M What would you do?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, that's doable.
Speaker 4: Let's try it. Yeah, I support you, guys.
Speaker 3: That is one of the most diplomatic nos I've ever heard.
Speaker 3: I love it, man. I don't know if most people
Speaker 3: would say yes. You know, we're thinking out loud here,
Speaker 3: but again, thought experiments aside. This is going to be
Speaker 3: a thing. The red market is very real. A lot
Speaker 3: of people have died as a result, a lot of
Speaker 3: money has been made, a lot of crime has been committed,
Speaker 3: and everyone wants other people to be able to survive.
Speaker 3: We just don't know what the effects of that are
Speaker 3: going to be. You know, it's a fantagious situation again,
Speaker 3: Like you, what happens if organ replacement becomes incredibly affordable
Speaker 3: economy of scale? Right now, I don't have to worry
Speaker 3: about smoking. Just pop over to CVS get my other lungs,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? I get a price break
Speaker 3: at twelve.
Speaker 4: That's that's crap.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's it's a lot to think of.
Speaker 3: And sorry, I know I'm ranting a little bit here,
Speaker 3: but but what, like, what would you guys do? Is
Speaker 3: it is it possible that is it possible that at
Speaker 3: some point this kind of technology would be banned because
Speaker 3: of the ethical complications?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think we just got a three D print
Speaker 2: them proteins. We can do this.
Speaker 3: I like the optimism, Noel, how about you?
Speaker 4: What I mean? You know, I'm given the vast quantities
Speaker 4: of money involved in the field of biomedical technology, I
Speaker 4: have a hard time thinking if there's money to be made,
Speaker 4: that it's going to do anything but progress. I don't
Speaker 4: think ethics typically are at play when it comes to
Speaker 4: money to be made, you know, I mean it kind
Speaker 4: of It seems like a lot of times it is
Speaker 4: stuff is pushed forward without fully thinking through the end game,
Speaker 4: ramifications in the service of making lots of money, and
Speaker 4: that maybe the voices of dissent are often kind of
Speaker 4: quieted in favor of quote unquote progress.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, terrifyingly well put there. We know that, we
Speaker 3: know the conversation will continue. We're going to We're going
Speaker 3: to lean on you. Fellow conspiracy realist. Please write in
Speaker 3: and tell us how you would solve these ethical quandaries.
Speaker 3: Is there something that you would not do to save
Speaker 3: yourself or a loved one? What is the what is
Speaker 3: the rubicon? Thou shaltst not cross? The Bible's got in
Speaker 3: my head recently. Before we before we go out, we
Speaker 3: want to in Letters from Home, we want to give
Speaker 3: a quick shout out to soup Dog, who raised some
Speaker 3: fantastic questions about digital existence. Do check out our recent
Speaker 3: conversation with the tech researcher and award winning podcaster Carl Miller,
Speaker 3: creator of kill List that should be available now. We
Speaker 3: are going to get to our good friend Baron Eaton
Speaker 3: and Project Willow in the future. But for this moment,
Speaker 3: I think there's nothing better for us to go out
Speaker 3: on than a nice joke as a palate cleanser. Remember
Speaker 3: how earlier we were hyping up this joke.
Speaker 2: Oh and something about the snow.
Speaker 3: Can we hype it up more? Yeah, Dillie, give us
Speaker 3: some crazy music, no crazier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, this might be too crazy.
Speaker 3: All right, all right, take it down one point five.
Speaker 2: That's it. That's it.
Speaker 3: There it is, that's the spot that sounded weird. Uh,
Speaker 3: here we go. This is uh. This is a joke
Speaker 3: that we were very excited to receive from our pal Harrow.
Speaker 3: Add with that drum roll, we proudly present.
Speaker 9: Hey man, I'm listening to the Listener news and you
Speaker 9: made a reference to ic DMS and I just wanted
Speaker 9: to point out that that is. But yet when the
Speaker 9: abominable spittleman anyway, Emo, Harrow, have a great day, go ahead,
Speaker 9: and if you wish go ah.
Speaker 4: I'll take it.
Speaker 10: It's better than humorous, Harry, And yeah, yeah, we appreciate
Speaker 10: everybody who writes in with humor, which is one of
Speaker 10: the highest aspects of thought, to be honest with you,
Speaker 10: but maybe we restate.
Speaker 3: The joke one more time for people who haven't heard
Speaker 3: it before. What do you call it? How someone else
Speaker 3: do it? I'm too close to it right now.
Speaker 2: What do you call it? When the abominable snowman takes
Speaker 2: a poop?
Speaker 3: And ic b m oh. Thank you for the rackouts.
Speaker 3: Applause Dill in Tennessee pal face.
Speaker 4: Like innercontinental ballistic missile, Yes, icy, icy movement, Yes, yes, okay,
Speaker 4: it's you know, it's good humor when you have to
Speaker 4: spell it all out for everybody, or I'm just bad
Speaker 4: at it at jokes. Sorry, that's awesome. That's very good,
Speaker 4: very good.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for the rockets. Applause there, Dylan,
Speaker 3: Thank you to Griffin Harrow, Soup Dog, Bearing Eat, no
Speaker 3: Ose Woman, Sleepy Stella, Marvelous, Marvin, the millennial Boomer, and
Speaker 3: most importantly, thanks for tuning in, folks. That is our show.
Speaker 3: Join us tomorrow. We have such wonders to show you
Speaker 3: if you want to, if you want to inspire us
Speaker 3: in a further exploration of these programs or an episode
Speaker 3: please please please hit us up immediately stop whatever you're doing.
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email, drop us a call, or hit
Speaker 3: us up on the nets of the inters, which is
Speaker 3: how Yoda would say internet.
Speaker 4: He ways, Yeah, God bless him for it. You can
Speaker 4: find us with the handle conspiracy stuff what we exist
Speaker 4: on Facebook with our Facebook grub here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 4: On YouTube we have video content for your producing enjoyment.
Speaker 4: And on xfka, Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok we are
Speaker 4: conspiracy stuff show. We're also human people. I'm how now
Speaker 4: Noel Brown on Instagram? How about you, Ben Bowen.
Speaker 3: If I survive the current travails, I am an entity
Speaker 3: that can be located in a number of fashions. Get
Speaker 3: the to the Necronomicon. Turn to page sigma eight. There
Speaker 3: will be a little upside down black triangle there. It
Speaker 3: is a magic book. So just turn that triangle the
Speaker 3: correct way at midnight and then we'll start chatting. Or
Speaker 3: you can find me on Instagram at redacted.
Speaker 2: Oh and Matt, Yeah, if you want to find me,
Speaker 2: just go outside, find a car. Make sure you can
Speaker 2: see yourself in that car's windshield. Once you're there, give
Speaker 2: it your absolute best. Riz you could usually just look
Speaker 2: through Ben and Noles thing and I'll be in there. Wait,
Speaker 2: somebody just changed my name to Riz.
Speaker 4: God no they did not. I love it as well
Speaker 4: they said it, by the way, speaking You know what,
Speaker 4: here's a little secret hint for finding Matt. He just
Speaker 4: posted a really cool video talking about our live appearance
Speaker 4: on February eight, nineteenth at National Sawdust as part of
Speaker 4: the on air fest. If you want to hear Matt's
Speaker 4: dulcit singing voice and piano playing skills, you can check
Speaker 4: that out on my and Ben and the Stuff they
Speaker 4: don't want you to know Instagram account and it will
Speaker 4: point you to Matt's secret personal account. Ooh yeah, and.
Speaker 3: You still pretend it's a secret. We gave you a
Speaker 3: pretty clear directions. But yeah, you know, secrets are fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. My name is Matt Frederick. You can find
Speaker 2: me on Instagram. You can call our number one eight
Speaker 2: three three STDWYTK and tell us all about all the
Speaker 2: things that we talked about in this episode. What are
Speaker 2: your feelings, what are your thoughts? What are your ideas?
Speaker 2: When you call in, you've got three minutes say whatever
Speaker 2: you'd like. Give yourself a cool nickname and let us
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on
Speaker 2: the air within the message. If you got more to
Speaker 2: say than can fit in a three minute voicemail, why
Speaker 2: not send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
Speaker 3: we receive. If you are like barred eaton, may memhir
Speaker 3: give you grace to book an appointment the world of
Speaker 3: quantum proofing before search or wins kidding. That is an
Speaker 3: inside joke for a guess one person. This is one
Speaker 3: of our favorite ways to be contacted. Twenty four hours
Speaker 3: in evening, seven nights a week. Sometimes the void writes,
Speaker 3: so be well aware, yet unafraid, join us out here
Speaker 3: in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production
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