1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discuss the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Alex Jones is mad at Donald 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: Trump for distancing himself from Project twenty twenty five. Don't worry, 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: little buddy, He's going to do all of it. We 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. Kurt Anderson 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: stops by to talk about the fun little pranks he 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: played on Donald Trump and how the memory haunts him 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: to this day. Then we'll talk to author and scholar 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: Ruth ben Guillatt about the bad week the far right 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: is having across the globe. But first we have the 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: host of the Origin Story podcast, our friend in the UK, 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: Ian Dunt. It is with great pleasure, joy and honor 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: that we have a reason to talk to one of 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: my favorite people, Ian Dunt, and he's looking pretty smug 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: right now because the UK has, for the first time 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: in fourteen years, elected a government that doesn't want to 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: destroy itself discuss let's go. 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: Congratulations Ian, Thank you very much. I think what I'm 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: experiencing is joy. It's a strange feeling and it's been 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: around for about four days now, and each day I 22 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: wake up and be like, what the fuck is going on? Like, 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: what is this strange feeling I have in my breast? 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: And I think it is I think it's optimism, it's joy, 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: It's a sense of happiness, boardline euphoria. I just don't 26 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: know how much longer this can go on for, but 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I can do like another two or 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: three months of this feeling. 29 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: So explain to our listeners what happened. I want the 30 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: election blow by blow. Your polls understated the left, So 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: I want you to start there and get going. 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know about that, to be honest. 33 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: I mean, we had some polls, especially. 34 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: Towards the end, these MRP polls, that were suggesting an 35 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: even higher degree of decimation for the Conservative Party. So 36 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: the end result came in in about kind of the 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: middle zone of our polling. I think some of us 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: had almost convinced ourselves that we wanted it to get 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: even worse for the Conservatives. We were almost disappointed by 40 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: the result. They ended up getting just over one hundred 41 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: and twenty seats. We'd sort of dreamt, what if they 42 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: get less than one hundred. Maybe this is the final, 43 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: you know, final stake through the heart of the vampire 44 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: that is the Conservative Party. It isn't right. One hundred 45 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: and twenty seats. That's the worst result that party has 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: ever had. I mean, it hasn't performed worse than that 47 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: since eighteen thirty two and we had the Great Reform 48 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: Acts and started to introduce democracy. I mean, basically, that's 49 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: as bad as it gets. And not just that. Not 50 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: only did Labor, the main opposition party and now the government, 51 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: the center left party, have a very very very strong evening, 52 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: by far the best electoral evening has ever had, but 53 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: the Liberal Democrats, another center left party, also picked up 54 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: seventy one seats. So what you're looking at now and 55 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: Parliament has just sat for the first time since the election. 56 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: I've literally just switched it off to talk to now, 57 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: is by far the most left wing parliament that this 58 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: country has ever had. And to be honest, I haven't 59 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: checked this, but I think you could start looking around Europe, 60 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 2: you could start looking around the Western world, and I'm 61 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: pretty sure it would be probably the most left wing 62 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: parliament that's around right now in a democratic country. It 63 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: is an absolute triumph for progressive forces in Britain. 64 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Right, tell me what it was like that day because 65 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: Labor has not been in power for fourteen years, so 66 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: and it's been you know, the head of Lattice woman, 67 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: the thin guy from California and the guy with the 68 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: bad hair. I mean, it's been a string of some 69 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: really bad prime ministers to discuss. 70 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely like the worst collection of 71 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: human beings you could have running a country at any 72 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: given time. And you know what, even like they were 73 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: like this to the bitter end, to the bitter bitter end. 74 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: Even in the last week of the campaign, a scandal 75 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: broke that the people around Richisunat the Prime minister had 76 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: gone as soon as they found out when the election 77 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: date was, but before the public knew, had just gone 78 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: down to the local bookies to make a bet on 79 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: when the election was like the most tawdry, low class, 80 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: low grade form of corruption, like the kind of thing 81 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: that if you were in like some tiny Latin American 82 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: dictatorship and just be like, well, obviously I wouldn't do that. 83 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: That's just too cheap. But it were prepared to do 84 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: it at the height of the Conservative Party. So they 85 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: were committed to the role that they had to give 86 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: and they followed it through to the very end. But 87 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: what's extraordinary about these years, right is you know what 88 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: they're even doing in now, like swella Brotherman, one of 89 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: the right wing figures in the Conservative Party is currently 90 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: in the U of Bes at one of your batshit 91 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: festivals of you know, the far right where they want 92 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: to ban you know, I don't know, you know, embryos 93 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 2: or whatever it is that they're up to at the moment, 94 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: and she's currently talking about how one of the reasons 95 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: we lost is because I didn't fight hard enough against 96 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: taking down the rainbow flag wherever I saw it. And 97 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: what she's really extraordinary, brother a is It already seems 98 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: like a bad dream to be governed by these people 99 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 2: with such tiny moral and intellectual characters. But it's more 100 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: than that that their fundamental confusion was just thinking a 101 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: lot of voters like them kind of raised their eyebrow 102 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: at things like that of the rainbow flag, you know, 103 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 2: political correctness or whatever. But they really don't want government 104 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: ministers to just talk about that all the time rather 105 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 2: than fixing immigration or healthcare or education. And yet that's 106 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: the trap they fell into, just talking about this pub 107 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: nonsense over and over and over again. Like someone's soul 108 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: sifting itself slowly through a drain, and now finally it's done. 109 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: That sense of palpable anger against them has just fully 110 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: expressed itself, and it's ended up with a situation where 111 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: Labor are triumphant to an extraordinary degree, to the kind 112 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: of degree that you would expect that they're almost certainly 113 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: be in power for longer than ten years. 114 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: So can you explain to me? This is the aftermath 115 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: of a number of really shitty governing decisions, but one 116 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: of which I think is Braxit, and many people one 117 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: of the favorite things that my European friends have liked 118 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: to say to me. I think you may have even 119 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: said this to me, is that you can undo Donald Trump, 120 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: but you can't necessarily undo Brexit. So where are we 121 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: with that? 122 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard, it's really really difficult to undo it. 123 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: And before you were even thinking about any of the 124 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: logistical problems of undoing it, you have to deal with 125 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 2: the electoral problem, which is that Brexit split the Labor 126 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: Party right down the middle right, and actually it split 127 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 2: the Tory Party to a certain extent as well. Those 128 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: liberal Democrat votes that I talked about earlier. There's seventy 129 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: one lived MMPs. Those are mostly people that were in 130 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: typically conservative constituencies, but conservative remainance pro European conservatives. You're 131 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: basically they're never going to vote for labor, but they 132 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: will vote for a sort of center leftist, you know, 133 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: top button done up liberal Democrat party, and that's what 134 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: they did. But for labor, it just cut them through 135 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: the heart because it was once you go into a 136 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: cultural war territory for labor, it's just death. You've destroyed 137 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: its electoral coalition. And Labour's electoral coalition is progressive, very 138 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 2: very liberal, highly educated white collar workers with much less progressive, 139 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: much more socially conservative blue collar workers, you know, for 140 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: meving like in class industrial baits. Once you start turning 141 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: politics into something that's no longer about economics but is 142 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: about culture, that electoral coalition falls apart. So Keir Starmer, 143 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: the labor leader, his main mission throughout this period is 144 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: essentially kill the culture war. Just eradicate it, Do not 145 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: allow it to take purchase. Do not get involved in 146 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: conversations about you know, trans people in toilets or statues 147 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: of you know, colonial figures that are being pulled down, 148 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,239 Speaker 2: or Brexit or any of these other key note issues 149 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: that trigger cultural war conversations. Just kill that dead and 150 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: focus on the meat and potatoes of what politics is, education, 151 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: health care, public service delivery, taxation, the economy. Bring politics 152 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: back to a reasonable conversation. That's pretty much what he 153 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: succeeded in doing. 154 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: So that is exactly the same thing that happened in France, 155 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: right you see. 156 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: I think there's a bit of a difference right with 157 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: mccron and Starmer in that regard, because mccron is quite 158 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: proudly open. He would explicitly say I am the opposite 159 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: of Donald Trump. I'm the opposite of Marine Leapen. You know, 160 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: I represent the open world economy. Now, that's the kind 161 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: of message that someone like me desperately wants to hear 162 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: from the Keir Starmer. Starmer will never give that message 163 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: hours He's not involved in I'm one side of the 164 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: open closed binary. He's involved in open closed is not 165 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: a thing. We're going back to right and left. We 166 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 2: have an electoral coalition that can win on right and left. 167 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: That's the debate that we want. Open clothes can absolutely 168 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: get fucked for Starmer. So's he's actually subtly different to mccron. 169 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 2: Even though they're both called centrists, he's actually quite meaningfully distinct, right. 170 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point, and so interesting 171 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: is that they just decided to sort of give up 172 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: on the stuff that you and I both think are 173 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: really important and just get power, which, again on the 174 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: liberal side, you know, there's always a lot of like, 175 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: why don't democrats do that? Or why don't liberals do more? 176 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,359 Speaker 1: Stuff like that is a sort of craven political calculus 177 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: which might be needed to win elections, but doesn't win 178 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: you France, right. 179 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: You know what, here's the thing, right like, and I 180 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: get for Sarch to do with it too. I want obviously, 181 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: what I want is for case time had to come 182 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: out tomorrow dressed in a European flag going hah, fuck 183 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 2: you guys, I lied the whole way through and now 184 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 2: we're going back in. Right, of course, that is what 185 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: I want. However, if he'd done that, he would not 186 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: I don't think who would have won the election. 187 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: Well that's the calculus, right, right. 188 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: And then yesterday the Rwanda plan was killed. Rwanda was 189 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 2: a scheme to take asylum seekers and send them to Rwanda, 190 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: and it wasn't to process them in Rwan. It was 191 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: to send them there, regardless of whether they were found 192 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 2: to be a legitimate asylum seeker, a refugee or not, or. 193 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: Even if they were from Rwanda. 194 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: Right right, Well, you know what the fund of the 195 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: irony is. We grant asylum to people from Rwanda when 196 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 2: they asked for it in the UK, and yet here 197 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: we are sending people to Rwanda, going, oh, it's perfectly 198 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: say to send asilum teacause they obviously it isn't demonstrably 199 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: not by virtue of your own judgment. Now that is 200 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: just a moral corrosion. Rights, that's the soul of a 201 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: country just fucking disintegrating in front of your eyes. Now 202 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: it's canceled, and you get it from the far left, 203 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: the Corbyn left, which I don't want to say it's 204 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 2: like the Sanders left in the US, because I think 205 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders is a far superior, much more intellectual and 206 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: moral unba. 207 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: Sanders is in the tent whereas Corbin is not. 208 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. 209 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: They are kind of allies and they clearly both admire 210 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: each other. 211 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: But Sanders is crafting legislation whereas Corbin is. 212 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, but go on, yeah, so the Corbyn guys. 213 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: The far left in Britain are by far the most upset. 214 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 2: They're much more upset than the Conservatives, you know, because 215 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 2: to see the center left come in is like their 216 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: worst nightmare. They don't even really recognize that a right 217 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: wing exists, you know. It's sort of their only real 218 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 2: emotional and intellectual preoccupation is the battle within the left 219 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: in Britain. It's the battle for the Labor Party rather 220 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: than the battle for the country. 221 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 3: And they're terribly upset. 222 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: But you sort of think, look, can you honestly not 223 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: realize now what there is to be gained by making 224 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: compromises and yes, by being really pragmatic and practical and 225 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 2: just thinking not about your ideals or your conscience. But 226 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: what does it take to win? Like, what does it 227 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: take to get those guys, to get the Conservatives and 228 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: just bury them in the fucking ground and try and 229 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: undo some of the damage that has been done to 230 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: this country and to his reputation and to his moral 231 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: standing over the last fourteen years like purity, Political purity 232 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: accomplishes nothing, but if you win, you can scrap the 233 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: Rowander scheme, which is what we finally see. And for 234 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: that I have to say, I am just tremendously grateful, 235 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: even though I accept that I myself am not hugely 236 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: inspired by the kind of you know, political ideology that's 237 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 2: been put forward by kit Start. 238 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: So he really is just a sort of very moderate centrist. 239 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: He's an odd guy. 240 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 4: You know. 241 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: He uses words which political people don't use. 242 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: Interesting. 243 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 2: One of these words is service, and the the other 244 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: one is dignity, and it's odd, right, Like, as soon 245 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: as someone in this country, I know it's slightly different 246 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: in the US, but as soon as someone in this 247 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: country uses the word class, we know who they are. 248 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: They're are socialists. If they use the word liberty or freedom, 249 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: we know that they're a liberal. If they use the 250 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 2: word tradition, we know they're a conservative. His language is rhetoric, 251 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: doesn't really fit into any of the normal categories. So 252 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: for a long time we all thought, you know what, 253 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: he's just a kind of Hallmark's card nothingness. He's just 254 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: saying these kind of sort of harmless sort of banalities. Really, 255 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: but it's not right, I don't think once you start 256 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: reading about his life story, I mean, he was a 257 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: human rights lawyer when he came out of university, and 258 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: he was living with his friends above what was basically 259 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: a brothel, was a sort of massage partner, and one 260 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: of his friends came back and found out that he 261 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 2: wouldn't and he really telling anyone. He'd just been offering 262 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: this free legal advice to the women who worked in 263 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: that shop. When they were quite startled by it, he went, 264 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: would these women just have to be treated with respect? Now? 265 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: Take that and then think about the way that he 266 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 2: talks about football. He was really into his football, but 267 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: when he talked talks about local football teams. He doesn't 268 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: really talk about the sport. What he says is that 269 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: a local football team is the source of a town's pride, 270 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: sense of dignity. He has this constant focus, especially through 271 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: people's work, especially when they're in manual labor, that they 272 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: should be treated with respect, that they should live a 273 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: dignified working life where they're paid enough to have a 274 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: dignified life. In the way that they organize their family 275 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: and their local community. So all of that it is 276 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: kind of meaningful, you know, And I think it's it's 277 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: a really from an American position I think would be 278 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: considered really quite on the left. I mean, he talks 279 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: about himself as socialist, but it's always framed in these 280 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: terms of dignity for the people and service from the 281 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: government to the people. And that's the kind of language 282 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: that he uses, and I think it sounds quite harmless, 283 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: it can see. Always actually a pretty left wing agenda. 284 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: Hmmm, interesting a level left wing agenda, you do, I know, 285 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: you do? Tell me what else is happening there, Nigel Farage, 286 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: that fucking. 287 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 2: Guy go, Yes, the human dust spin with the smell 288 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: of ash. 289 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if Roger Stone more slightly 290 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: more legitimate. 291 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's as if you know, you're sat on the couch, 292 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: as you say, and your fingers go down as you 293 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: get bored and goes under anything. You just feel this 294 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: really kind of wet, sticky, disgusting old substance somehow attached 295 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: to your finger. And that's basically what Nigel Faraja's soul 296 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: looks like. So he is the leader of the Reform Party. 297 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: It's a very very right wing party. Although to be honest, 298 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: you know, the same thing has happened to the Conservatives 299 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: parties that has happened to the Republicans, which is it 300 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: has absorbed so much of the populous right that it 301 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: really is quite hard to tell the difference between them. 302 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: But he is further to the right than the Conservative 303 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: Party and there is no meaningful liberal conservative tradition within him. 304 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: Right. 305 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: He managed to secure for the first time five seats 306 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: in parliament. He's never been able to get into parliament before. 307 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: He's got a foothold. We are much more like the 308 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: US than we are like Europe in terms of our 309 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: electoral system. You know, the proportional representation electoral system that 310 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: you get in every other European country would allow a 311 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: populist right party to have pretty hefty representation all the time. 312 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: We're not like that. We're first passed the post like 313 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: you guys do, so they never really get a foothold. 314 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: They have this time, and incidentally, so did the Green Party. 315 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: The Green Party used to have one MP and that 316 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,119 Speaker 2: has four MPs. What you're seeing is just this desire 317 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: to break away from the two party binary to basically 318 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: a much more European idea. You know, a hard right party, 319 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: a Green Party over here, and some smaller centrist parties 320 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: in the middle. That's happening. You can see the desire 321 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: in the population, but the electoral system doesn't quite. 322 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: Let it out. 323 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: Really, it doesn't represent it in seats. He's got his foothold. 324 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: He will use it to spread absolute fucking poison in 325 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: the House of Commons chamber. But again I have to say, 326 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: you know, the Conservative Party have been dealing in that 327 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: kind of poison for years now, right, It's not. 328 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: A huge, huge stretch. 329 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: Right exactly. 330 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's been nearly a decade since 331 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: Theresa May, after the Brexit vote, said that if you're 332 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere, 333 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: where you would almost sort of allude to this idea 334 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: of oh, if your mixed race, if you've got mixed nationality, 335 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: if you speak multiple languages, you're not really one of us, 336 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: you know, not properly one of us. That hutred nativist 337 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: rhetoric has been deeply embedded in the Conservative Party since Brexit. 338 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: Now Nigel Farage is its perfect embodiment, you know. I 339 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: mean he even looks the part as well as sounding 340 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: the part. But the actual proper distinction, the sense of 341 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: there'll be a real sense of deterioration, isn't there. What 342 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: you get is probably the most frightening thing for the 343 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: Right in Britain, which is a formalized split on the 344 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: right flank. Typically speaking, that always happens on the left. 345 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: The left, because of its internal battles, its need for purity, 346 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: constantly cuts the vote up, just like it did it 347 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: even in this election over Gaza. The right is always 348 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: very unified. There's a monopoly there from the Conservative Party. 349 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: The Conservative monopoly is now gone. It is split with Farage, 350 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: and sure there might be a little bit more poison. 351 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: I accept that, but at the same time it also 352 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: suggests that the Conservatives are going to find it very 353 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: very hard to get back into power right. 354 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: Because they're not as a line. So again, the one 355 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: thing that I keep wanting to go back. You formed 356 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: a coalition and you were able to win, and that 357 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: happened in France, and that happened in the UK. Right, 358 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean there was to a certain extent coalition put together. 359 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: Flea is just say yes. Even if I'm wrong to 360 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: say yes. 361 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: I mean yes, as you know, I will just do 362 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: what you ask of me. Really, we agree all to 363 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 2: this stuff that I say before before we record. I'm 364 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: just what is wrong? You are basically correct, and I 365 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: think that there is something to be said there for 366 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: being able to put aside the idealism your perfect outcome 367 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: and just gunning for the best outcome you think can 368 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,239 Speaker 2: be achieved. I don't want to understate the amount of 369 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: hostility between centrists and left wingers in Britain at the moment, 370 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: because it is big. There are a lot of left 371 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: wingers who would frankly rather have the Tories in than 372 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: Keir Starmer. But it's true that there is an electoral 373 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: coalition there and it worked. I mean, thinking about the US, 374 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: the thing that concerns me is this is where I 375 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: think the limit is of what can be learned from 376 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: what's happening in Europe right now for the US, which 377 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: is I just think it's very hard to kill the 378 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 2: culture war in the US because it's grounded in centuries 379 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: of ideas around religion and race, which just don't exist 380 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 2: in the UK. You know, we don't have that history 381 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 2: with race. We don't have any talk of religion at 382 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: all in our political life over here. And so Kia 383 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: Starmer can kill the culture war, I mean, I think 384 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: very clearly Biden has been trying to do the same 385 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 2: thing in the US, but it's just much harder to 386 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: do because the baseline, the pre populous basefline of how 387 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: politics is conducted has much more cultural kind of wedges 388 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: in it than we do in the UK, so it's 389 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: not instantly obvious to me how you kind of map 390 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: across what's happening over here in Europe to what could 391 00:18:58,560 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: happen in the US. 392 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you're better off than we are. Look, I 393 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: get it, I get it. I hear it, I hear 394 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: it loud. Yes, I know. 395 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: I've been waiting years, you know, I mean I've had 396 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: four years. If you would biteen while I suffer, and 397 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: I've just needed this moment. You have to let me enjoy. 398 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: Smug a friend, Ian, you are my north star or something. Congratulations, 399 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: Please enjoy it. You'll be something terrible will happen soon. 400 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to 401 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all 402 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store 403 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats, 404 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some head to fastpolitics dot com. 405 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson is the author of Evil Geniuses and the 406 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: co creator of command Z. Welcome back to Fast Politics. 407 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson I usually don't introduce people in a very 408 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: long winded and an annoying way, but I'm going to do 409 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: it with you because I think of you as one 410 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: of the people who saw. 411 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 3: This all coming, and by all you mean what You. 412 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: Were the person who coined the phrase short fingered vulgarian. 413 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 3: Ah that, yes, and you. 414 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: Were the person who cooked up the idea of sending 415 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: Donald J. Trump checks for three cents. 416 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 3: Well, I and my partner and my theft did all 417 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 3: those things. But yes we did. 418 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: Yes, So you knew somewhere that we were going to 419 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: end up with this guy discuss. 420 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 3: I'm a prophet, Molly, and I'm compared to talk about 421 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 3: my prophecies. No. He started the Climate magazine in nineteen 422 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: eighty six. You know, Donald Trump right away at his inception, 423 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 3: as a well known person at that moment, seemed like 424 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: a perfect person to satirize and cover with ridicule as 425 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 3: we did, and as a bully, as a liar, as 426 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 3: a guy who is our first issue. We quote him 427 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 3: saying I could solve the nuclear problem with Soviet you 428 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 3: needed an hour and a half. Maybe I wouldn't even 429 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: need an hour and a half. So he's that guy 430 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 3: now in nineteen eighty six, nineteen eighty seven, and back 431 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 3: then when you know we were doing spot he was 432 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 3: a ridiculous buffoon purely, of course, he used a little 433 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 3: ridiculous buffoon and not. 434 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: The head of the Republican Party and not the. 435 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 3: He of the Republican Party. And of this you know 436 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: what else? Can we call it? Proto fascist movement that 437 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 3: is in our nation? Yeah, so we picked him and 438 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 3: there he is here we are. 439 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about the checks for a minute. Just explain 440 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: the check because that's an incredible little prank that ended 441 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: up saying so much. 442 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 3: It was fun. We did all kinds of like serious 443 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: journalism by serious journalists about Trump and other people, but 444 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: we also did these fun things, and often they were 445 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 3: kind of very very long cons essentially of nachs on 446 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 3: whether Johnson newd New England go to work for Rob 447 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: Reagan and George Bush. And we didn't go after Donald 448 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: Trump specifically on this one, which made it so beautiful. 449 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: But it worked out and it took us a year. 450 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: So anyway, we set up this fake thing called the 451 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 3: National Refund Clearing House and got the addresses of all 452 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 3: these rich people. Well done, rich people. It's fifty eight 453 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 3: of them, I think, and sent them a letters saying 454 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: we're very very sorry you have this refund of a 455 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: couple of bucks rebucks coming. Here's the check. Or to 456 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: eighty nine it was like an autumn ount, so okay, fine, 457 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 3: and you know half of them maybe or more cashed it. 458 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 3: This was three bucks whatever. And then to the ones 459 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: who did cash them, we said, okay, oh, a month later, 460 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 3: here's another check for an additional refund, so we're very 461 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 3: sorry we didn't get the soap. Only of them would 462 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: cash that. And we went down and down and down 463 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 3: until we got to thirteen cents, and uh keep saying, 464 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: here's another check from the National Ferry winning National refund 465 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 3: and clearing House. And there were two out of the 466 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 3: fifty eight people who endorsed and cashed these tiny thirteenth 467 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: cent checks, one of who was a non Kushogi, the 468 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: Saudi arms dealer, who was about to go bankrupt at 469 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: that time, and the other one was Donald Trump, who 470 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: also was about to go bankrupt, as it turns out, 471 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 3: and then before he made his comeback and is who 472 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 3: he is, but yes, the fact that he did, and 473 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: then when it is one of his recent adjudicated cases. 474 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 3: The Swermy Daniels hush money case, the prosecutors actually used 475 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 3: his ragging about that check cashing from thirty four years 476 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 3: ago to show that he bragged about it in one 477 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 3: of the books he published and didn't write, saying, look, 478 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 3: this is one of micromanager. This is where a great manager, 479 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 3: I know every dollar that comes and goes, and the 480 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 3: spy made fun of me for it, but like, I'm 481 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: proud of it. So there you go, and that was 482 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 3: part of the prosecution's case. It gives him like, yeah, 483 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 3: he knew about the checks stormy obviously because he was 484 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 3: bragging about it when he cashed the thirteenth cent check 485 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: third years So yeah, it was a great It was 486 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 3: a great, great full cot because again her hulks or 487 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 3: prank or exposure because we weren't going after him specifically, 488 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 3: he just won the contest. 489 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: You know, I think a really good point here, and 490 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: also exactly what we're talking about is this idea that yeah, 491 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that moment that they used in the trial 492 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: where they talked about him knowing every single thing that 493 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: happened in the business, was actually very meaningful and useful 494 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: because you know what they were saying was that he 495 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: didn't know. 496 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 3: Yes, And when you say we were on this guy 497 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 3: and we saw in the future and all that, that's 498 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 3: not true. But we were clear out of it about 499 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 3: this guy that the rest of most of the rest 500 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 3: of the media at the time was just you know, 501 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 3: celebrating effectively and building up and raising up. So but 502 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: it is extraordinary, like an impossible work of fiction, like 503 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 3: so much of real life these days that you know, 504 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 3: here we are thirty four years later, and this thing 505 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 3: we did, part of our our cats making against him 506 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: for years became an element in his prosecution and conviction 507 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: as well as our You mentioned the short figured bulgarian, 508 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 3: which is the main epithet we attached to him every 509 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 3: time we mentioned it. Once we came up with it 510 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 3: and not an idiot. And then I practically spit out 511 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 3: my coffee at the television when I was watching a 512 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 3: debate in twenty fifteen or sixteen at which Marco Rubio 513 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 3: brought that up in a presidential debate, and so I 514 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 3: thought like, yeah, holy cow, I mean, what has God 515 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 3: what these jokes we were making to get under his 516 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 3: skin and successfully get under his skin decades earlier, were 517 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 3: now part of the national discourse and thing and comments 518 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 3: of consequence. 519 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is the thing about Donald Trump. So 520 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: you have now known this person as a public person, 521 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: probably longer than any of us, and had a longer 522 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: relationship with him. Here we are. She's sort of down 523 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: but not out right. Right now, he is a prejumptive 524 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: Republican nominee because the Convention hasn't happened yet. He has 525 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: taken another whack at the presidency. The Supreme Court has 526 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: given him everything he could ever want in a laundry list. 527 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: He's polling really well. You know, he has a chance 528 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: to get back in there and punish all of us. 529 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: You're going to get mo with me. 530 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 3: Well, I've been hoping we could share a bob. 531 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, you know it's that's up to cash Patel. 532 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: That's not my wheal husband. Yeah, I'm curious if you 533 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: could tell us how you think you beat this guy. 534 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 3: He's amazing, I mean, you know, I mean really cool 535 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 3: together with facts was what we did say. No, this 536 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 3: guy is bankrupt, he's a failure. We were saying back 537 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 3: back to Nadian on and ninety so that was a 538 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 3: way then. Now it didn't beat him. We as I 539 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: sometimes say we tried killing Hitler in the crib, but like, eh, 540 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: he went on, as did Trump. So it's hard. And 541 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 3: as we found out with the media, the news media 542 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: in starting in two five fifteen, where he was his 543 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 3: whole act, which is in every in most possible respects, 544 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 3: unlike any previous existing politician, is what got him a 545 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 3: movement and support and did not do you dismiss him 546 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 3: as people did. Obviously you know in the press he 547 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: can't win, He's not going to win, He's going to lose, 548 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 3: and then what do you do? And and so it's 549 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 3: he's playing by this whole set of other rules and 550 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: always has Still it is, so it's hard. I don't 551 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 3: think there's a master plan of this is how you 552 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: beat him, although you can't do it normally. I mean 553 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: I don't. For instance, in twenty seventeen, after he won 554 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: and we were saying, oh, what's who's going to run 555 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, I thought, oh, the person running a 556 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 3: great possible Irani gives a miss. Senator Al Franken, who 557 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 3: as a former comedian and as a performer and as 558 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 3: a very very smart, smart US senator, could have done 559 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: a great job of he would be an effective taker 560 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 3: on of the nonsense on his own terms. And you know, 561 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 3: people say, oh, it's all our show. No, he failed 562 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 3: one debate, but it shouldn't all be a show. Debates 563 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 3: don't matter. True, true, true, it's all our show. That's terrible. 564 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 3: But as I've been writing about for many, many years, 565 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: it has become more and more of a show. Oh, 566 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 3: since television was invented, and since John F. Kennedy beat Nixon, 567 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 3: and on and on through Reagan, Clinton, Trump. So you know, 568 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 3: it is what it is. Don't complain about it, deal 569 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 3: with it. And I think one of the ways to 570 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 3: deal with it is in addition to the conventional ways 571 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 3: of talking about elements of Project twenty twenty five and 572 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 3: all the things that you know need to be done 573 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: to have you know, to have some versions of swinging 574 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: wild than showmanship, but all those things that are part 575 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 3: of what presidential politics has become. So you know, and 576 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 3: of course what people including me, are worried, not worried, 577 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 3: that President Biden simply can't pull off, is in addition 578 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 3: to that stuff. These days, the more conventional ways of 579 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 3: performing a debate where your deranged, maronic, ignorance, lying opponent 580 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: gives you five, ten, twenty giant opportunities to waive as 581 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 3: many other Democratic candidates could have taken advantage of and 582 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 3: this guy couldn't. 583 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: My question is more, what are the things you've seen 584 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: in your experience with Trump that you think this Democratic 585 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: Party coalition against fascism could use? 586 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think there's anything magic. There isn't an 587 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: al Franken esque character among the potential candidates who could 588 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 3: do that. 589 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: But even like, as you're running against Trump, what does 590 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: that look like? You know, like, what are the ways 591 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: to get him? 592 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 3: I think it's not as hard now as it was 593 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 3: actually in twenty sixteen or even twenty twenty. At this 594 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: point we've seen every trick in his playbook. Back in 595 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen and sixteen, it was what what is this? 596 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 3: This is not the way politicians act, this is this 597 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 3: is unprecedented. Well, eight or nine years later, everything is 598 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,239 Speaker 3: precedented that he does. It's a familiar stick and a 599 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 3: familiar run of greatest hits. So I think in a 600 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: certain way, if you have a skillful presenter of the 601 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 3: case against the fascism and against making abortion and contraceptives 602 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: and all pornography as a project twenty twenty five wants 603 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 3: to do illegal. I think that's a decent messenger of 604 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 3: that who's also appealing in all the ways that presidential 605 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 3: candidates have to be appealing. It's not that hard of 606 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 3: a thing. I mean, that was right. That has been 607 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 3: the strategy. The strategy of the Biden campaign is this 608 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 3: guy is so horrible and so phenomenally horrible, and people 609 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 3: don't like him except for his cult. You know, he 610 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 3: needed it be Well, I think that's true if you 611 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: have a you know, fully empowered. Yeah, but that's not 612 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 3: what I so I'm not saying, what do you do? 613 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: I mean, run a normal campaign against this crazy, dangerous, 614 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 3: dislike person. 615 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: He won against Hillary Clinton, right, I mean he didn't 616 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: win the popular vote, but he did win the electoral college, 617 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: so he can win. 618 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 3: He can win. Yeah, yes, And I thought he could 619 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 3: win when people were saying, oh, it's a slam dug. 620 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's only a twenty three percent chance according 621 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: to the date Silver forecast in two those sixteen and 622 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 3: I used to say, are seventeen percent or whatever? Of 623 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 3: course he's going to lose. Well, I always said to 624 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 3: myself at that time and to friends, well, you know, 625 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: Russian roulette one and six chances, only a one and 626 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 3: six chance you die. Well, you know it's a one 627 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: and six chance. So yes, he can win. And obviously 628 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: from the polling data, and he has been president and 629 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 3: the country did not fall. You know, there are all 630 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 3: kinds of ways in which people who are inclined maybe 631 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: kind of sort of to vote for him beyond the cult, 632 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 3: which you know, he has many millions of people beyond 633 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 3: the cult who have voted for him and will vote 634 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 3: for him again. Well, on the other hand, now on 635 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: like twenty sixteen, everybody has had the experience of him 636 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 3: as president and how the chaos and division and too 637 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: much attention on his hyjaink so all the rest that 638 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 3: produces most people don't like. 639 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: No, it's not popular. I mean, this is part of 640 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: what's happening here is these are unpopular ideas. I mean. 641 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: One of the parts of Project twenty twenty five which 642 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: is shocking to me is the removal of no fault divorces. Right, 643 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: A no fault divorce was a way for people to 644 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: get out of a divorce without it being about you know, 645 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: because of the way it worked was you had to 646 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: have a reason to get divorced in those countries, so 647 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: it would have to be abandonment or abuse or annulment. 648 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: You know, there were certain sort of faults and you 649 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: would have a person would be at fault. And the 650 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: idea with the no fault divorce was that you could 651 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: get out of a divorce without blaming someone just because 652 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: you didn't want to be married anymore. And this cut 653 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: down domestic violence. People got divorced. It was really so 654 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: good for the community and for America. It was signed 655 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: into law by Republicans' favorite Ronald Reagan, and they want 656 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: it gone well. 657 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: And who is leading that? Whose agenda is this? The 658 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 3: guy is on his third wife and lord knows how 659 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 3: many mistresses, which is you know, one more of those 660 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 3: gobsmacking ironies that are there. And the thing is about 661 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: let's get rid of no fault divorce. Oh, let's get 662 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 3: rid of pornography. Once again, ironic at the very least 663 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 3: about this. The Libertarian Party, the Freedom Party of Republicans 664 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 3: wanting to use the law and the heavy hand of 665 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 3: regulation make divorce heart. Don't have pornography all the rest 666 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 3: of it. Maybe do a lot of contraception, definitely, don't 667 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: allow abortion, all those things. Which people sometimes for reasonable reasons, 668 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 3: to disapprove of abortion. Well, can I get it why 669 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 3: people do to disapprove of pornography, I totally get it. 670 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 3: But all these things that are cultural problems, if you will, 671 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 3: or issues or the way culture has changed. These right 672 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 3: winners want to use the heavy hand of the state 673 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 3: to deal with which doesn't work, won't work, can't work, 674 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 3: and you know has until the social conservatives arose and 675 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 3: took over. The Herritage Foundation and the Republican Party to 676 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 3: some degree were not part of their act. Really, I mean, 677 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: it was rhetorical. But now the nuts are, you know, 678 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 3: more and more in charge that ever. You need to, 679 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: you know, get past those to abiden to wobbly and 680 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 3: demented or at Parkinson or whatever, and just focus on 681 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 3: look at what these people want to do. You know, 682 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 3: look at this Project twenty twenty five thing that half 683 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 3: of whose authors of the nine hundred pages of very 684 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 3: specific proposals are former Trump advisors and employees in his 685 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 3: previous administration. Like this is no joke. They'll go for this, 686 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 3: and okay, yeah, he will understand that, Oh we don't 687 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 3: want to, you know, have a national ban on abortion. 688 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 3: That's bad politically or oh no, we don't want to 689 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: outlaw pornography because my entire you know, male base are 690 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 3: porn pants whatever it is. You know, he understands that. 691 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean this new Trumpist maga deep state 692 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 3: that he's going to try to install won't pursue all 693 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 3: those things. So the Dobbs decision to overthrow Roe v. 694 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 3: Wade was a thing obviously that look, it really happened. 695 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 3: They can really do this. They did this, and for 696 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 3: the people who are affected and horrified and whose lives 697 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 3: are changed, that is to say, women by this awful 698 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 3: diminution of freedom. Okay, that did that, but it can 699 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 3: happen to this thing that you care about, and this 700 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 3: thing that you care about, and that's what you know. 701 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 3: The case has to be made that this isn't just hysteria, 702 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 3: you know. And I'm somebody, as you know, Molly, who 703 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 3: tries not to turn up my step panic dial to 704 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 3: ten or eleven and to stay calm. Well and like, 705 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 3: oh no, it may not be the end of the box. 706 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: Well we have been before. And the metaphor I used 707 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 3: is at the edge of the abyss. We here we 708 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 3: are again, and here we are really are because as 709 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 3: we has said, and it's true, there are many many 710 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 3: more experienced, competent, prepared people in the pack of Christian 711 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 3: nationalists and white supremacists and all the rest of his 712 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 3: crew who are ready to go. And there's all kinds 713 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 3: of overheated hyperbole, But as President Biden often says, you know, 714 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 3: it's not hyperbole, it's not hypherberlely often it's not anymore 715 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 3: piperple about the threat face And you know, so I 716 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 3: want the Darky Candy to be able to make that 717 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 3: case clearly and without all the other stuff that, unfortunately 718 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 3: President Biden will have to spend the next four months 719 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 3: dealing with then and everybody worrying about. Is this the day, Kurt. 720 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: Anderson, We're at a time. 721 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 3: We love you though, all right, happy to talk as ever. 722 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: Ruth ben Gillatt is the author of Strong Men, Mussolini 723 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: to the Present and publisher of the sub Stack Lucid 724 00:36:52,640 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: Welcome back, Too Fast Politics, my friend, Ruth ben Gillat. 725 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 4: Hi, Ruth, Hello, delighted to be here. 726 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you. I'm such a fan 727 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: of yours and the moment we are in is a 728 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: moment that I feel we need to talk about authoritarianism, 729 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: and that is why I sent up the bad signal yesterday. 730 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 1: I hope that's okay. 731 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's literally around the world. Of course, the life 732 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 4: and death matter, and we see what could be coming 733 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 4: our way too. 734 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: I want to first start with good news because I 735 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: think a lot of Democrats are pretty stressed right now. 736 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: I'm pretty freaked out, and so I think for the 737 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: people who stopped me on the street and are really upset, 738 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: that we should first talk about the humongous, shoemongous victory 739 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: in France. Let's talk about that. 740 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not just France. I've been maintaining for a 741 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 4: while that we the world is experiencing the start of 742 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 4: an anti authoritarian wave. And I've been tracking the protests 743 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 4: around the world, and you know, Chile, look what happened 744 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 4: in Poland, in Iran, even in China there was the 745 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 4: lockdown protests. Countries are having the biggest protests they've ever 746 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 4: had in their histories, or the biggest their mass nonviolent protests, 747 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 4: or the biggest protests they've had in like thirty years. 748 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 4: Israel too, right, Israel, exactly, people turning out, and so 749 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 4: in Poland this was you know, recently they got rid 750 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 4: of their far right government. They had a campaign based 751 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 4: on optimism and hope and they exposed corruption and they 752 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,959 Speaker 4: had a mass rally that was the largest rally since 753 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine. That led to the largest voter turnout 754 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 4: for thirty years. So what's happening in the UK where 755 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 4: Labor had a historic victory. And now the French. It 756 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 4: was very important with the French. They did everything right. 757 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 4: You have to have unity, and they also had a 758 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 4: recall to a very emotional symbol, emotional movement, which was 759 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 4: the Popular Front of the nineteen thirties, and they called 760 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 4: their coalition the New Popular Front and this was like 761 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 4: a winning recipe. 762 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: So tell us that, since you are a very smart historian, 763 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: tell us the history of the Popular Front. 764 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 4: This was, you know, in the nineteen thirties when you 765 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 4: had the Spanish Civil War going on, which was a 766 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 4: kind of you know, it was a Franco the fascists 767 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,919 Speaker 4: versus the international left, and so Spain became a microcosm 768 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 4: of this larger fight against fascism. And you had in 769 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 4: France the Popular Front, which was a unity coalition, you 770 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 4: know that that was designed to beat off fascism. In 771 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 4: France but also in Europe, and so I was very 772 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 4: interested because we know that politics and authoritarians have been 773 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 4: much better than democrats in using emotions, in using symbols, 774 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 4: and so it was very interested and happy that in 775 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 4: France they called the New Popular Front because that appropriated 776 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 4: the whole anti fascist heritage which was already there and 777 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 4: is very lively in France because they also had like 778 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 4: years of Nazi occupation in doing World War Two. So 779 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 4: they did everything right and they had this victory. So 780 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 4: it shows the world. It shows us that there are 781 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 4: things that can be done, that there's a momentum in 782 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 4: the world for anti authoritarianism. People don't want to live 783 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 4: with their rights taken away, with plunderers, with abusers. So 784 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 4: there's a lot to be hopeful about in the world 785 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 4: if we could apply it here. 786 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: Yes, and so let's talk about that, because when I 787 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: watched that election go down, what I was struck by 788 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: was the coalition that was put together to defeat the 789 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: far right. So why don't you explain to us exactly 790 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: sort of the minutia of the two election system. 791 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 4: So it's a two step election and other countries have 792 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 4: this too, and you have the first round, they had 793 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 4: a week in between and then you had the second round. 794 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 4: And the advantage, of course, is that the first round 795 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 4: everybody got very scared because indeed the National Rally Party 796 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 4: of the pen and I call them Barbie and Ken, 797 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 4: this twenty eight year old Jordan Bardella, who was immediately 798 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 4: made the face at twenty six years old the leader 799 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 4: of the National Rally Party very smart because fascism has 800 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 4: always been a movement of youth. So they did very 801 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 4: well the first round and in the interim week that 802 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 4: was what everything came together and people realized that this 803 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 4: was real. So they had like a reality check and 804 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 4: that's when they did this unity coalition. And it's very significant. 805 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 4: And the lesson is that even people who don't get 806 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 4: along normally can band together when there's the threat of fascism. 807 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 4: Because the French left is famously divisive, they don't there's 808 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 4: many different parties and factions even within parties, and they 809 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 4: don't get along. But they did. They acted strategically to 810 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 4: beat off this larger, you know, evil that could come 811 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 4: from this homophobic, pro putin racist party. And so this 812 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 4: was this was something to watch and think about as 813 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 4: it relates to us. 814 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: Can you just explain a little bit about Marie Lupin's 815 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: relationship to fascism, because she said that the sort of 816 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: Orbon and Putin were her jam Remember that she said 817 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: it many times, but yes, if you could, yes. 818 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 4: Yes, okay. So Marie lepen is a very interesting figure 819 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 4: who unites the past of the right and the way 820 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 4: it's looking today because she became the head of the 821 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 4: National Rally Party because her father, Jean Marie Leapin, was 822 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 4: the founder of France's kind of official neo fascist party 823 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 4: that went back, you know, many many decades. He was 824 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 4: vowedly neo Nazi. He was a supporter of Nazism, and 825 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 4: so it's a very male environment and she was able 826 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 4: to come up in the ranks and then become the 827 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 4: head of this new National Rally Party because of this heritage. 828 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 4: And that's why I looked very suspiciously upon her very 829 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 4: smart appointment of this totally unknown twenty six year old 830 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 4: Jordan Bardella as the new face and the new leader 831 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 4: of the National Rally Party because just like Maloney in Italy, 832 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 4: these people who have a connection to fascism and are 833 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 4: now in this day supporting Putin and supporting Orbon and 834 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 4: people who are taking forth those authoritarian values and programs 835 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,919 Speaker 4: and actions. In the case of Putin and Ukraine, they're 836 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 4: trying to have it both ways. They're trying to be 837 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 4: faithful allies of these authoritarian forces, but they're also trying 838 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 4: to shake off slightly their fascist pass. So Bardella again, 839 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 4: he was twenty six, now he's twenty eight. He's supposed 840 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 4: to be the fresh face and clean hands of the 841 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 4: French right. But this is where the left, in calling 842 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 4: their movement the New Popular Front, got cut straight through that. 843 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 4: So names matter, symbols matter, and so they didn't. They 844 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 4: didn't do as well as expected. They came in third, 845 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 4: and so this is a very very important thing. And 846 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 4: we're seeing this again. We're seeing this even in its 847 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 4: own form with Putin, who obviously connects to communism, not fascism, 848 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 4: but at some level authoritarianism in the world. They do 849 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 4: the same things, whether the left or right wing. He's 850 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 4: the new face of authoritarianism and he's now a right 851 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 4: wing leader, but he's rehabilitating Stalin. Alexi Navalni died in 852 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 4: a prison that was the Polar Wolf prison in Siberia 853 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 4: that was actually built by Stalin. 854 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is craziness. So the Popular Front 855 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: was this idea that they would fight against Stalin and 856 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: the Nazis. 857 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,240 Speaker 4: Well, not again Stalin against Hitler. The original Popular Front 858 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 4: was a coalition in the nineteen thirties to beat off 859 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 4: fascism within France and also stand up during the Spanish 860 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 4: Civil War when the whole of Europe was divided against Hitler, 861 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 4: against Mussolini, against fascism. 862 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: Let's take that lesson here. What would that look like here? 863 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 4: It's difficult to have an analogy because we are. 864 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: We don't have a coalition government. No, I mean that 865 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: would look like the center and the left coming together. 866 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: We have more people in this country, just like in 867 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: the world, who want democracy than fascism. Can you talk 868 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: about that? 869 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:26,399 Speaker 3: Yeah? 870 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 4: So the United States, as we all know, is a 871 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 4: bipartisan system, and that's been a bit of a liability 872 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 4: in this situation. If one party becomes an autocratic party 873 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 4: and is a giant party, the people who within that 874 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 4: party who don't no longer identify because they've become autocratic 875 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 4: have nowhere to go. But that said, this is a 876 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 4: huge country and it's very important that the left and 877 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 4: the center, all the progressive forces right now band together 878 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 4: under the banner of Democrats and have that unity and 879 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 4: get out the vote. And the Democrats also need to 880 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 4: be far better about having an emotional appeal. And we 881 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 4: know that, you know, just saying you have to fight fascism, 882 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 4: you have to protect democracy, it's too abstract. And so 883 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 4: that's why, and Maali, you've talked about this very convincingly, 884 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 4: very well that reproductive rights is an issue that's concrete, 885 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 4: it affects everyday life. And that's why even Republican women 886 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 4: are uncomfortable with the GOP's stance on this. But there's 887 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 4: ways to center and emphasize that this is an existential 888 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 4: fight against fascism in our country. I mean, they want 889 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,280 Speaker 4: to deport fifteen to twenty million people. I'd liked everyone 890 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 4: to realize this is more than the population of Sweden, 891 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 4: of Belgium, of Cuba, of Haiti, and it is ten 892 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 4: times the size of Operation wetback in the nineteen fifties. 893 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 4: This is a recipe just that alone, without all the 894 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 4: other things. They want to do a Project twenty twenty 895 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 4: five to create an autocracy. This is a recipe for 896 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,760 Speaker 4: mass suffering, mass repression, mass chaos, do you really want 897 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 4: that or do you want to stand up for our 898 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 4: rights for freedom? And so there are many concrete issues 899 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 4: that we can find to message this, but the key 900 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,320 Speaker 4: is unity of all progressive, all anti fascist forces in America. 901 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: One of the things I was hoping that we could 902 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:28,800 Speaker 1: talk about here was when you do a deportation squad 903 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: like this, what that means is concentration camps. Can you 904 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:33,359 Speaker 1: talk about that? 905 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 4: We think alike. I've been worrying about this because my 906 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 4: book Strong Men is about the history of authoritarianism. There's 907 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 4: a chapter on violence, so I had to become very 908 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 4: familiar with the history of concentration camps in their various forms. 909 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,399 Speaker 4: One of the lessons is that regimes can start by 910 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 4: targeting one group or talking mainly about one group, and 911 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 4: then that justifies their building of this depressive infrastructure, the camps. 912 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 4: But be assured that once those spaces are ready, other 913 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 4: types of people go in there. So with the Nazis, 914 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 4: we talk about, oh, of course the Jews. But Dakau 915 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 4: was built in nineteen thirty three because they had no 916 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 4: more room in prisons. They were warehousing people all over 917 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 4: the place while they built Dhaco. And why was that 918 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 4: there were hard you know, Jews were infantesmally small part 919 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 4: of the population. It's because they were targeting all the liberals, 920 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,280 Speaker 4: all the left, gays, Jehovah's witnesses. And so the lesson 921 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,439 Speaker 4: is they may be talking in America about deporting and 922 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:45,359 Speaker 4: thus sweeping up and detaining undocumented immigrants, but once those 923 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 4: spaces are ready, and they'll capitalize on the US already 924 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 4: being the largest jailer the private prison system, other types 925 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 4: of people will be there because they're talking about that 926 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 4: openly too. They're talking about investigations and trials, Liz Cheney 927 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,399 Speaker 4: having a televised trial. Guess who does that. This says 928 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 4: on my book Kadelphi. Kadelphi had televised trials. So other 929 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 4: types of people will end up in those spaces. And 930 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 4: so if you think that you don't have to get 931 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 4: out the vote and vote yourself and unify with the 932 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,759 Speaker 4: Democrats because you're not an undocumented worker, or you're not 933 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 4: a gay person or transgender, that is incorrect. Historically, many 934 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 4: many more people will be affected, and with fifteen to 935 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,399 Speaker 4: twenty million people on the move swept up, the US 936 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 4: will become like a police state. Yeah. 937 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: Oh, and you know who's going to end up in there? 938 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 1: You and me, baby, like we're you know, we may 939 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: be white women, but we will end up there just 940 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: like everyone, you know what I mean, like enemies of 941 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: the state. Go on, Yeah, totally. In fact, Trump's a 942 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: thuggish spokesperson. Stephen Chung really doesn't like it when you 943 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:57,799 Speaker 1: call out. 944 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 4: These references to and similar hilarities to Hitler into Mussolini. 945 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 4: And so when Trump made that speech talking about people 946 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,640 Speaker 4: as vermin and by the way, there he was talking 947 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,919 Speaker 4: about lots of different people. He said Marxists and liberals 948 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 4: and fascists and all kinds of people like Stephen Chung. 949 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 4: And I was interviewed and I said, this is the 950 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 4: language that Mussolini and Hitler used. And Stephen Chung was 951 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 4: the Washington Post went to him for a comment, and 952 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 4: he said, those who make those references will find their 953 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 4: entire existence crushed when Trump returns to the White House. 954 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 4: And crushed means rounded up or sued. Yes, this is 955 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 4: the modern autocrats method of psychologically exhausting people as you 956 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 4: sue them. 957 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 3: Yes. 958 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 4: So there's many ways that many, many types of people 959 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 4: will feel the heavy hand of the Trump administration if 960 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 4: we do not band together and vote for the Democrats. 961 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And I want to pause for a 962 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: minute and talk about that for a second. So Stephen Chung, 963 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: who is Trump's spokesman, heard that you said that this 964 00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: was the language of Mussolini, and then he threatened you 965 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,760 Speaker 1: with the language of Mussolini. Am I right? 966 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:13,399 Speaker 2: Yes. 967 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,920 Speaker 4: I was interviewed by the Washington Post along with my 968 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,319 Speaker 4: colleague Tim Naughtily and I love him, yes, and we 969 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,480 Speaker 4: both pointed out that this is exactly how Hitler and 970 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,200 Speaker 4: Mussolini spoke, and the Washington Post went to him for 971 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 4: a comment for the same article, and typically he did 972 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 4: not mention us by name. He just said those who 973 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,000 Speaker 4: make these assertions, but it's obviously was us. 974 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, that is 975 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: just a pretty scary thing when you're accusing someone of 976 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 1: having these autocratic impulses and then they respond not by saying, 977 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: of course, we wouldn't do that, that's not true, instead 978 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,240 Speaker 1: by saying, in fact, we're going after you. 979 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 4: Yes, and the purpose of it. And I always step 980 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 4: back even if it's about me, because I've also been 981 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 4: mentioned very right before Bannon went to jail, I was 982 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,799 Speaker 4: mentioned on his War room show I step back and 983 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 4: look at you know why these people do this, because 984 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 4: they've done this throughout history, and it's not only designed 985 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,840 Speaker 4: to get me and my colleague tim to be quiet. 986 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,719 Speaker 4: It's designed to make everybody think twice before speaking out. 987 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 4: And it's the same reason that the Turning Point USA 988 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 4: has Professor watch List, which you know has individual I'm 989 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,439 Speaker 4: on their individual pages congratulations with unflattering photos. They've made 990 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 4: my hand look like a claw, and so all of 991 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 4: this is designed to make you self censor because that's 992 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 4: what regimes wants you to do. You're doing their job 993 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 4: for them if you just stay quiet and look the 994 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:49,719 Speaker 4: other way. 995 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,080 Speaker 1: Right, stay quiet and look the other way, which reminds 996 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,160 Speaker 1: me of Timothy Snyder. What was it? 997 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,120 Speaker 4: Don't o bay in advance? And I think of that too, 998 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 4: because we're seeing so many sectors of society line up 999 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,760 Speaker 4: for Trump and the same sectors that lined up in 1000 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,839 Speaker 4: the nineteen twenties and thirties for the original fascists, as 1001 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 4: in the big business elites, financial elites, like when the 1002 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:19,400 Speaker 4: CEO of Blackstone, Steve Schwartzman said a vote for Trump 1003 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 4: is a vote for change. I thought, really, it's January 1004 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 4: sixth the kind of change that is going to be 1005 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,440 Speaker 4: good for the business community, because authoritarianism is bad for business. 1006 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,880 Speaker 4: It creates situations where businesses can be plundered. Right now, 1007 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,839 Speaker 4: they're all excited because Project twenty twenty five and the 1008 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:40,440 Speaker 4: Supreme Court are acting to take away regulations so that 1009 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,359 Speaker 4: you can plunder the food supply, the water, you can 1010 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:49,280 Speaker 4: do anything without regulations. That's why they want to reform 1011 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 4: beyond all. Compare the Department of Commerce. But that's not 1012 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 4: going to be good for business. So these are people 1013 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 4: who are lining up to get on the good side 1014 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 4: in the same way that's always happened. And it's a 1015 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 4: depressing spectacle. 1016 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 1: Oh, depressing spectacle. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ruth Bendia. 1017 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,480 Speaker 4: It's always a pleasure, no moment O. 1018 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,080 Speaker 3: Jesse Cannon my junk fast. I know we're not supposed 1019 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,000 Speaker 3: to speak yell of the dead, but God, let's just 1020 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 3: listen to this clip the Primar audience for what we're 1021 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,320 Speaker 3: going to say afterwards. 1022 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,760 Speaker 5: Of national attention and in case we have forgotten, because 1023 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 5: we keep hearing that twenty fourteen has been the warmest 1024 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 5: year on record. I asked the chair, you know what 1025 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:43,000 Speaker 5: this is. It's a snowball. And that's just from outside here, 1026 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 5: so it's very very code, very unseasonal. So here, mister president, 1027 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:48,080 Speaker 5: catch this. 1028 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,719 Speaker 3: One of the dumbest things to ever be done on 1029 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,879 Speaker 3: the sudit for and that's a fucking high bar. 1030 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,800 Speaker 1: So he had a snowball, which was supposed to prove 1031 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: the climate change wasn't real. Well, he died on a 1032 00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,600 Speaker 1: day that it's eighty nine degrees and ten thousand degrees 1033 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: humidity in yet another of one of the hottest years 1034 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,960 Speaker 1: on record. So you know, we don't ever want to 1035 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,560 Speaker 1: say anything bad about people who die, but I think 1036 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,439 Speaker 1: we should all agree that you know, this guy did 1037 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: more harm than good and he is our moment of 1038 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,879 Speaker 1: ouck ray. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. 1039 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the 1040 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,640 Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. 1041 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,480 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to 1042 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,920 Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks 1043 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: for listening.