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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Steve Magnus, a world renowned

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Speaker 2: performance coach and author, to discuss the research backed best

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Speaker 2: practices for setting healthy goals for our pursuits, performing under pressure,

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Speaker 2: and dealing with failure. All right, welcome back to the

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Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light

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Speaker 2: and their Camel for Conservation Initiative. And I'm excited here

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Speaker 2: today because we've got an absolute banger for you. We

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Speaker 2: are wrapping up our kind of prepping for the New

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Speaker 2: Year series. I hate to say new Year Knew You

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Speaker 2: because that's kind of cliche stupid, but it's kind of

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Speaker 2: the only packaged phrase that I know of that kind

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Speaker 2: of explains what we've been trying to do here the

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Speaker 2: last few weeks, kind of getting ourselves ready for this

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Speaker 2: next twelve month window, resetting things, recentering ourselves and making

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Speaker 2: sure that we're moving forward in the right way. And

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Speaker 2: our episode today I think is a perfect way to

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Speaker 2: wrap it up, because it, in my mind is a

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Speaker 2: terrific kind of callback to where this all started. At

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Speaker 2: the very end of twenty twenty four, Tony and I

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Speaker 2: did an episode in which we kind of reflected back

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Speaker 2: on the last year and thought through, you know, what

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Speaker 2: were the good things, what were the bad things, What

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Speaker 2: brought us joy, what brought us fulfillment, what led to success?

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Speaker 2: And however you define that, and then how can that

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Speaker 2: inform us to plan this next year ahead? And what

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Speaker 2: we kind of stumbled on, I guess, and it's something

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Speaker 2: we have talked over the years, talked about over the years,

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Speaker 2: but one of the things we stumbled on was the

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Speaker 2: fact that, you know, when we layer all these different

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Speaker 2: expectations and outcome focused goals and how we compare to

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Speaker 2: other people. When we started caring about that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: it led to, you know, poor hunting success, not a

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Speaker 2: lot of excitement and fun and a lot of stress.

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Speaker 2: And so how do we still try to become better

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Speaker 2: deer hunters? How do we still try to fill tags

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Speaker 2: and have success, but do it in a way that

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Speaker 2: you know, brings us that enjoyment, fun and satisfaction that

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Speaker 2: we're looking for that got us into this in the

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Speaker 2: first place, and it's something that I know is not

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Speaker 2: unique just to us. I've heard from countless numbers of

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Speaker 2: you guys who are experiencing the same things. I've got

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Speaker 2: a handwritten letter right here from someone who has been

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Speaker 2: experiencing this very same thing. So I want to continue

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Speaker 2: to find ways to address it and help us all

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Speaker 2: so we can kind of work through this stuff and

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Speaker 2: get the very most positive aspects out of our hunting

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Speaker 2: journeys and leave this baggage behind. Because when we when

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Speaker 2: we obsess too much about filling a tag or killing

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Speaker 2: the mature buck, or having a big buck to show

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Speaker 2: our friends on Instagram, whatever it is, when we add

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Speaker 2: this self induced pressure and we fall for this kind

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Speaker 2: of comparison culture, when we do that stuff, it's it's

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Speaker 2: not it's not why we do this in the first place.

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Speaker 2: It takes away from what is an incredible pursuit and experience.

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Speaker 2: And so the question then is what's the alternative, what

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Speaker 2: is the better way? How can we do all this

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Speaker 2: that is going to leave us in a better, happier

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Speaker 2: and more successful place. And the answers or at least

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Speaker 2: some of the answers I think can be found with

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Speaker 2: our guest today on the podcast. Our guest is Steve Magnus.

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Speaker 2: He is a former track and field coach and now

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Speaker 2: a world renowned expert on peak performance. He has been

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Speaker 2: a performance coach for Olympic athletes, professional athletes, business leaders,

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Speaker 2: military service member. He's the author of a number of

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Speaker 2: different books which I've enjoyed. I've read a bunch of

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Speaker 2: his books, including The Passion, Paradox, Peak Performance, Do Hard Things,

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Speaker 2: and most recently, his brand new book that's coming out

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Speaker 2: here in a week or two is called Win the

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Speaker 2: Inside Game. And this book, you know, I think it

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Speaker 2: it was almost as if he wrote this book just

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Speaker 2: for us. Like the things he discussed are so perfectly

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Speaker 2: parallel to what Tony and I have been kind of

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Speaker 2: riffing on here in recent weeks. It's it's uncanny how

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Speaker 2: spot on it is. We discuss how to set goals

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Speaker 2: that are healthy, we discuss how to handle high pressure moments.

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Speaker 2: We discuss how to you know, specialize in an area

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Speaker 2: that you care about and continue to grow and get

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Speaker 2: better and achieve you know, new things, but do it

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Speaker 2: in a do it in a healthy way, doing in

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Speaker 2: a way that that's not going to get you over

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Speaker 2: stressed out, that's not going to make you feel worse

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Speaker 2: about it, that's not going to make killing a deer

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Speaker 2: a relief instead of something that you're just really excited about.

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Speaker 2: And the experience itself is really great too. So we

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Speaker 2: discuss all that we discussed. Like I mentioned performing under pressure,

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Speaker 2: we talk about choking, how to you know, not choke,

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Speaker 2: how to deal with failure when it does come, and

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Speaker 2: much much more. This is a chat that's filled with

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Speaker 2: insights that are backed up by research and science. Steve

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Speaker 2: has a tremendous wealth of experience personally and has also

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Speaker 2: then dug through the literature and talked through the experts

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Speaker 2: on all these things. So this is something that you

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Speaker 2: know is applicable to world class athletes, top of the world,

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Speaker 2: business leaders, and even US deer hunters. So I am

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Speaker 2: very excited for our chat today. So I think we

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Speaker 2: just get right to it. Here's my conversation with Steve Magnus.

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Speaker 2: All right here with me on the line now is

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Speaker 2: Steve Magnus. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Steve, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited for

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Speaker 3: this me too.

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Speaker 2: You know, like I mentioned just a second ago off air,

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Speaker 2: I've been reading your work for a lot of years now.

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Speaker 2: You and Brad have I think, spoken to so many

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Speaker 2: different things I've dealt with. Whether it's been you know,

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Speaker 2: physical fitness and sport related things, whether it's been kind

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Speaker 2: of the mental side of peak performance. I've always been

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Speaker 2: someone who has, you know, been pushing and striving. I'm

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Speaker 2: very achievement oriented. I'm what some people I think call

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Speaker 2: these days an insecure overachiever. Has been like the trendy

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Speaker 2: buzzword these days that I've heard them like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: that sounds like me. But You've got this new book

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Speaker 2: that is coming out right around the same time that

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Speaker 2: this podcast will be airing, called Win the Inside Game.

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Speaker 2: And as I read it, it felt like you were

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Speaker 2: writing to an audience of one just me. It was

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Speaker 2: as if you had somehow infiltrated my mind over the

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Speaker 2: last year or so and read all of my thoughts,

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Speaker 2: saw what I've gone through over the last year or two,

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Speaker 2: and thought, I need to write a book for Mark.

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Speaker 2: Here I go, and you did it so so I

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Speaker 2: want to I want to paint a picture for you

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Speaker 2: of a hypothetical scenario a person a stand in will say,

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Speaker 2: and I'm curious if this sounds familiar at all, if

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Speaker 2: you've heard of anyone going through this. Let's imagine someone

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Speaker 2: we'll call him Bill. And Bill grew up as a

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Speaker 2: young kid, you know, following his dad and grandfather and

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Speaker 2: friends out into the outdoors hunting and fishing. And he would,

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Speaker 2: you know, get an absolute thrill joining the men out

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Speaker 2: there at the cabin, maybe hearing the stories, spending time outside.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was it was always an adventure. It

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Speaker 2: was a surprise. There was camaraderie. It was terrific. He

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Speaker 2: fell in love with it. As he though got older,

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Speaker 2: he then found himself wanting to get better at these things.

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Speaker 2: So he started reading the articles, reading the books. He

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Speaker 2: continued down that road. He started having some success. Now

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Speaker 2: he's watching the YouTube videos telling him exactly how to

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Speaker 2: get better at this and this training regimen and this

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Speaker 2: particular protocol. Now he's listening to all the podcasts, drilling

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Speaker 2: into how the best in the world are doing this

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Speaker 2: and how he can have that same kind of success.

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Speaker 2: Now he's obsessing over going out there into the field

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Speaker 2: and being as successful as a hunter as he possibly can,

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Speaker 2: pushing himself three hundred and sixty five days a year

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Speaker 2: to be the best he possibly can be. He's following

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Speaker 2: all of his favorite professional hunters or outdoorsmen on Instagram

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Speaker 2: and YouTube and seeing all their successes, and when he

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Speaker 2: does have success, he's posting it there and feeling better

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Speaker 2: and better with every single new like he sees popping up,

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Speaker 2: kind of validating his success. But as this trend continues

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Speaker 2: and he gets deeper and deeper and deeper into it,

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Speaker 2: he starts finding himself out there, going into the field

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Speaker 2: to go for a hunt, and not necessarily feeling that

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Speaker 2: pure joy and excitement, but instead stressing about am I

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Speaker 2: going to get a deer? Or not worried about? Am

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Speaker 2: I working hard enough? Am I doing the right things?

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Speaker 2: Am I putting in enough time? Is somebody better than I?

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Speaker 3: Do?

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Speaker 2: Other people think I'm a lousy hunter. When he or

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Speaker 2: she sees his friends or the people he follows on

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Speaker 2: social media having success, he's maybe not excited for them.

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Speaker 2: He's feeling bad about himself. Does any of this sound familiar? Familiar?

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Speaker 3: You might as well be talking. You could be talking

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Speaker 3: about running, you could be talking about writing, You could

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Speaker 3: be talking about any any sort of pursuit, and I'd

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Speaker 3: be nodding my head along to say, this is the

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Speaker 3: path that a lot of a lot of people, And

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Speaker 3: I would say a lot of people inclined to strive

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Speaker 3: go down. It's the same path that I went down

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Speaker 3: on a hunting but in my chosen sport of running.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's the same path that people go down.

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Speaker 3: When you look at even business success is that it

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Speaker 3: follows this pattern of like we we get captured, we

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Speaker 3: fall in love with something. It is a magical, joyful

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Speaker 3: exploration of the thing that pushes us from interest to passion.

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Speaker 3: As we get passionate, we kind of cement and narrow

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Speaker 3: around the thing. We're getting better, We're getting better. But

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Speaker 3: at some point, the thing that has driven us, that

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Speaker 3: has gotten to this point, almost starts to get in

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Speaker 3: the way. Where the success, the striving, the achievement, the

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Speaker 3: working harder than everybody, the watching all the videos, following

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Speaker 3: all the things like starts to be the thing that

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Speaker 3: creates the pressure, the anxiety and takes away the thing

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Speaker 3: that initially drew us to it, which is that joy,

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Speaker 3: that camaraderie, that exploration, And all of a sudden we

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Speaker 3: find ourselves in a place where we used to want

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Speaker 3: to do the thing, and now it almost feels like

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Speaker 3: we have this burden of have to and that is

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Speaker 3: the battle of I would say most high performers everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Is this new or was this as true? Was this

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Speaker 2: as true fifty years ago? Or is this a phenomena

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Speaker 2: of the twenty first century? And in the the many

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Speaker 2: different strange coinciding things we have going on with media

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Speaker 2: and culture and whatnot.

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Speaker 3: We've always had this to a degree, but what I

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Speaker 3: would say is the twenty first century has like put

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Speaker 3: it on steroids. We've exacerbated so much because think about

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Speaker 3: it now, that comparison that how do I measure up

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Speaker 3: against people is you know, one hundredfold. It used to

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Speaker 3: be you know, I don't know how it works in hunting,

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Speaker 3: but you could, you know, at the highest levels you

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Speaker 3: could kind of compare each other. You go to competitions,

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Speaker 3: you have whatever, you have some comparison point. But nowadays

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Speaker 3: it doesn't even take you know, any of that. You

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Speaker 3: literally go on in scram or TikTok or YouTube or

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Speaker 3: what have you, and you can find a thousand different

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Speaker 3: comparison points. So our comparison has kind of gone from

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Speaker 3: local to global and at an earlier stage, and that

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Speaker 3: has made this again ten times worse and harder. The

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Speaker 3: story I tell in the book is of my own journey,

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Speaker 3: which is, you know, back in the day, I'll put

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Speaker 3: it this way. Back in the day, I was very good.

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Speaker 3: I was a very good runner, and I kind of

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Speaker 3: fell in love with the sport because it was fun

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Speaker 3: and enjoyable and I was pretty good at But my

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Speaker 3: pretty good at it was comparison comparing against like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the kids in my class at school, right, which is

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Speaker 3: you know, thirty kids, maybe in the whole school one

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Speaker 3: hundred kids. Right. But now, if I think about it,

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't be that. It would be, oh, I ran

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Speaker 3: this mild time. Let me go look online and compare

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Speaker 3: that to all the other twelve year olds in the world.

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Speaker 3: And guess what. Instead of feeling energized that I'm pretty

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Speaker 3: good at this thing, I would compare to everyone and

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Speaker 3: be like, oh my gosh, I am minute slower than everybody.

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Speaker 3: I am slower than In my case, I would have

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Speaker 3: been slower than many, you know, girls of the comparable age.

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Speaker 3: Why would I do this sport? I'm not good at it?

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Speaker 3: And that would again that would take away some of

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Speaker 3: the things that we do. So I guess long story

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Speaker 3: short is, I think, especially on the comparison piece, it

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Speaker 3: is so much bigger and harder now because we can

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Speaker 3: we can compare to anybody that instead of motivating us,

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Speaker 3: that puts us into this like why try protective anxiety

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Speaker 3: pressure mode that so many of us feel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I feel like you have done a

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Speaker 2: lot of work that's been adjacent to this over the years.

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Speaker 2: You've explored a lot of kind of tangential topics. But

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Speaker 2: why did it feel like now was the time to

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Speaker 2: tackle this various specific thing head on? Why this book

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Speaker 2: right now?

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Speaker 3: I think we always write the books that we need

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Speaker 3: and similar to your journey, like my journey was from

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Speaker 3: like you know, go all in, really successful, try and

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Speaker 3: get better to now you know, I just turned forty

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Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago, is thank you, and I

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Speaker 3: have two young kids and you start to see the

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Speaker 3: world through a different lens and you start say, okay,

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Speaker 3: like I better rethink this because maybe I'm going to

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Speaker 3: go down this path I have, like this fork in

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Speaker 3: the road, I can go down this path that is

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Speaker 3: chasing externalized feel that pressure, lose that joy, or I

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Speaker 3: could go down this other path, and I've tried to

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Speaker 3: go down that path towards joy exploration. But the other

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Speaker 3: part of it that I kept seeing is I spend

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Speaker 3: a lot of my time coaching, and at first that

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Speaker 3: was just in running, but now I help out high

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Speaker 3: performers with all lenses. And the problem I increasingly saw

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Speaker 3: is that all of these people had incredible potential. Talent

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Speaker 3: was through the roof, the work, ethic was through the roof,

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Speaker 3: but if you look at the objective measures, they weren't

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Speaker 3: getting where they were capable of getting. And at the

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Speaker 3: heart of it almost always came down to what we're

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Speaker 3: talking about right here, is they wanted it so bad?

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Speaker 3: Did all of a sudden that want, that desire often

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Speaker 3: cut from the external, was getting in the way. And

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Speaker 3: from athletes I was seeing I was working with or

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Speaker 3: talking to you, or like researching about is I kept

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Speaker 3: seeing that like they all hit this moment where they

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Speaker 3: had to essentially say, Okay, I got to change something up.

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Speaker 3: I got to free myself up by almost doing the

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Speaker 3: opposite and letting go a little bit, and all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, like their enjoyment would come back, and more importantly,

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Speaker 3: somehow the performance would increase and improve because like that

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Speaker 3: that pressure, that anxiety, that all that stuff like just

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Speaker 3: got alleviated just a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, it seems like there's there's like two different curves

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Speaker 2: that you might see happen. There might be like a

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Speaker 2: bell curve where you see someone who's slowly improving, slowly improving,

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Speaker 2: and they're going down this path and then they're seeing

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Speaker 2: significant improvements and at some point stuff starts to plateau

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Speaker 2: and level out a little bit when these types of

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Speaker 2: challenges start hitting and then I think for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, you might then start dropping down the other

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Speaker 2: side when the anxiety, the pressure, the stress, all of

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Speaker 2: it takes the fun out of it for you and

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Speaker 2: you lose the motivation to do it, or you you know,

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Speaker 2: crash and burn in one of so many different ways,

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Speaker 2: and you see your not only your performance, but your

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Speaker 2: interest in the pursuit at all crash. But I think

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Speaker 2: then there's probably other people that somehow navigate this differently

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Speaker 2: and crash and through that plateau and then continue to evolve, grow,

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Speaker 2: perform and enjoy that thing. In reading your book, you

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Speaker 2: put words to many things that I have been figuring

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Speaker 2: out and maybe didn't have this specific language that you

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Speaker 2: put down here for it. But many of the things

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Speaker 2: that I've been gravitating towards and recognizing as having truth

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Speaker 2: and validated to it. And one of those things that

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Speaker 2: you call out in here is the importance of kind

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Speaker 2: of our motivations being either external or internal, and the

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Speaker 2: importance of that you reference to study towards the beginning

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Speaker 2: of your book called a meta analysis of the Dark

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Speaker 2: Side of the American Dream, and I'll just quote this

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Speaker 2: a little bit here from it. You said they found

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Speaker 2: that when individuals extrinsic aspirations dominated their intrigues intrinsic ones,

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Speaker 2: it was universally detrimental to their well being. It's not

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Speaker 2: that we need to have solely intrinsic motives, it's the

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Speaker 2: balance that matters. When we tip too far to the external,

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Speaker 2: we languish instead of thrive. When winning is all that matter.

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Speaker 2: It might work in the short term, but over the

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Speaker 2: long haul we increasingly play out of a place of

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Speaker 2: fear and perform worse. Can you expand on that for

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Speaker 2: us what you mean by, you know, extrinsic aspirations versus

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Speaker 2: internal and kind of why that maybe is a keystone

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Speaker 2: understanding for this whole thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So extrinsic are the achievements that accolades the rewards,

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Speaker 3: the tangible things that you get out of achieving the goal.

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Speaker 3: It's the bonuses you get at work, right, The intrinsic

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Speaker 3: is different. So it's that that piece of joy, the exploration,

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Speaker 3: the almost play that we experience. The way I like

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Speaker 3: to conceptualize this delineation between the two is, remember when

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Speaker 3: you started the thing, you told you know, Bill's story

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Speaker 3: about going on the hunt, you know, being outdoors with

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Speaker 3: you know, family, and just the sheer excitement of that adventure. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that is the intrinsic. You're not going on that hunt

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Speaker 3: to say, okay, okay, how many you know, how many

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Speaker 3: buck can we kill? Right? How good can we be

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Speaker 3: in this? Oh? You're on that because you're part of this,

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Speaker 3: where you belong. You feel that joy. You say, like,

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Speaker 3: this is an adventure, let's go. And as we age

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Speaker 3: and as we get into adults, we often lose a

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Speaker 3: little bit of that and as we get better at things,

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Speaker 3: we kind of forget that that interest in it, ner

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Speaker 3: joy that got us interested in the thing and turned

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Speaker 3: it into passion. And the first point and That's what

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Speaker 3: the whole thing is about. Is it's not that we

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Speaker 3: shouldn't you know, care about winning or shouldn't care about

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Speaker 3: the end result to achievements. We're humans, we're going to

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Speaker 3: we're competitors, we're strivers, we're pushers. You and I are

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Speaker 3: to care about the outcome. And that's totally fine. But

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Speaker 3: the problem comes when we mess up that balance too much.

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Speaker 3: If the outcome is all that matters, if winning or

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Speaker 3: losing is self defining, then we are kind of screwed

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Speaker 3: because what research tells us is that when winning is

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Speaker 3: all that matters, or the outcome, we're too much towards

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Speaker 3: that extrinsic we activate our motivation styles we have. Essentially

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Speaker 3: you can sum it up into two styles. We either

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Speaker 3: approach the thing or avoid the thing, meaning in sports term,

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Speaker 3: we play to win or we play not to loose.

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Speaker 3: And what research tells us is that heavily on the

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Speaker 3: extrinsic side, we start shifting from that approach to the avoidance,

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Speaker 3: and the bigger the achievements or accolades matter to us,

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Speaker 3: the more we go to avoidance. Now, why would that be?

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Speaker 3: For simple reason, because we've told our brain that like

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Speaker 3: hitting this. You know, this outcome is so important that

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Speaker 3: our brain goes like, well, if it's that important, then

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Speaker 3: I'm going to protect you from the downside, which means

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Speaker 3: we start avoiding the thing a little bit. And you

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Speaker 3: can see this in different aspects of your life. Right,

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Speaker 3: it's the athlete who maybe comes up with all the

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Speaker 3: excuses for why they're not going to performed, right you

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Speaker 3: say like, oh, I I haven't backed off for this race, right,

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Speaker 3: I'm a little tired going in, so if I don't perform,

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Speaker 3: Or it's it's the student who says, you know what,

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Speaker 3: you know, I could have studied more, but I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to. And then afterwards you do that because you

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Speaker 3: could have said, well I got a C or B,

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Speaker 3: but if I would have studied, I got it, I

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Speaker 3: would have gotten in A. That's the avoidance speaking, that's

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Speaker 3: that protective you know, mindset. On the flip side, if

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Speaker 3: our motivations are more tilted a little bit more towards

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Speaker 3: the intrinsic we approach the thing. Why because we're in

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Speaker 3: that exploration mode because if we win or lose, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it might sting. If we don't you know, get our

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Speaker 3: outcome we want want, it might sting a little bit,

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Speaker 3: but it's not self defining because that intrinsic is pushing

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Speaker 3: us to understand that, like, part of the reason we're

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Speaker 3: doing this is the journey itself to experience the experience

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Speaker 3: to go on the hunt and be out there for

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Speaker 3: hours and hours and see, you know, with our friends

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Speaker 3: and see what it's all about. Yeah, and that's where

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Speaker 3: it all comes. You know, I'm simplifying here, but modern

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Speaker 3: world has pushed us too much out of balance with

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Speaker 3: thats ex forensic dominates and we forgot about the thing

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Speaker 3: that got us interested in in the pursuit in the

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Speaker 3: first place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So much of it seems to be tied to

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Speaker 2: expectations and like the expectations that we bring to the pursuit.

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Speaker 2: And one of the ways that you described this is

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Speaker 2: discussing and maybe one of the ways to break out

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Speaker 2: of this is to have a or to shift from

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Speaker 2: an outcome orientation to a process orientation. Can you expand

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Speaker 2: on that a little bit as as how I know

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Speaker 2: it's similar to this, you know, shifting from avoidance to

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Speaker 2: to the other alternative, But can you talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about that. And it's been something that I have

401
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Speaker 2: you know, been really working on myself because in our

402
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Speaker 2: world you can't get very tied to, you know, the

403
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Speaker 2: specific goal of man this year, I'm going to hunt

404
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Speaker 2: in and harvest this specific mature buck, where like, this

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Speaker 2: is my goal to have this caliber of success, and

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Speaker 2: you will work your tail off all year for it,

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Speaker 2: and it almost becomes to feel like a life or

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Speaker 2: death issue for you, when in fact, you then because

409
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Speaker 2: of that, have stressed, have worried, have made it almost

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Speaker 2: a military mission to get there, and then even if

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Speaker 2: you do get there, you hardly enjoyed the process at

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Speaker 2: all because you were so focused on the obsession with

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Speaker 2: the goal and beating yourself up all on the way

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Speaker 2: because it's not going the way it's supposed to. And

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Speaker 2: then God forbid, if you don't achieve that outcome, then

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Speaker 2: you are kicking yourself and beating yourself up for how

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Speaker 2: horrible you are and how you didn't do enough, or

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Speaker 2: how you made the wrong decisions or you know, nine

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Speaker 2: thousand other possible things. Can you speak to that shift

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Speaker 2: from outcome orientation to process orientation and a why is

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Speaker 2: that healthier? And be how?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so think of it like this, what's the purpose

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Speaker 3: of goals? You can simplify it into this is there

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Speaker 3: to motivate and to tell us what's important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

427
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Speaker 3: Right. If we are totally outcome focused or outcome orientated

428
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Speaker 3: with their goals, what happens is at first they might

429
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Speaker 3: be a little motivational. You might say, Okay, I want

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Speaker 3: to achieve this, I want to run this fast, I

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Speaker 3: want to achieve this, get this many you know bucks,

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Speaker 3: whatever it is. Okay, at first, that might be a

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Speaker 3: little motivational. But what happens over time is it and

434
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 3: you described it right there, is it shifts from motivating

435
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: you forward to it becomes this like signal where it's

436
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 3: like still hadn't got it? Not you you're not maybe

437
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: you're not close, maybe you're not going to get there,

438
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: And that little thought in the back of your minds like

439
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 3: starts to build that anxiety, that pressure, that worry, and

440
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 3: instead of motivating us forward, it motivates us to kind

441
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 3: of like go into that protective mode. If we look out,

442
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 3: what does an outcome orientation do to our focus? It

443
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: largely blinds us from everything else, so we only see

444
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: the outcome. And what we know from both sport and

445
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 3: life and even some research on hunting is that shows

446
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 3: us is that when we become blinded to everything else

447
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 3: but this, you know, achieving X, Y and z, it

448
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: makes us where we miss opportunities, right, We miss opportunities

449
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 3: to go down a different path, maybe to try something different,

450
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: to try a different process orientation towards maybe achieving that outcome,

451
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 3: and we get in our own way. If we look

452
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: at process orientation, what does that mean is it means

453
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: a couple of different things. It means taking us away

454
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: from that outcome and saying, Okay, what are the steps

455
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: or the journey that I want to go on that

456
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 3: puts me in the best position to do this, So

457
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 3: that maybe that's something as simple as you know, well

458
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 3: I need to train you know, X number of days

459
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: to get this done, or I need to The process

460
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 3: is like to give myself a shot here literally I'm

461
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 3: figuratively in this case, you know, is to like, you know,

462
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 3: go hunting at this time with this people with this

463
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: you know process behind it, meaning like these are the

464
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: steps that I get there. And that shift is subtle,

465
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: but it's important because it takes you away from it

466
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: through a zero sum lens of like did I win

467
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: or lose? Did I achieve or not? And it makes

468
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: you reflect on did I do the process to give

469
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 3: myself the best opportunity? And if we can reflect in

470
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: that way, it takes it away from that threat mode.

471
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 3: It takes us into this kind of like learning, growth

472
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: and understanding mode, because whether you got the thing or not,

473
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 3: what matters is did you execute your process. This is

474
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 3: why in sports, like every football coach in the world

475
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: says focus on the process. Why because simply they know

476
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: that the win or loss is sometimes out of your

477
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: control and like dependent on factors that might be a

478
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: little bit of luck. Right, you can't control how many

479
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 3: years show up right in the situation.

480
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: Control the weather, I can't control what other people do.

481
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: I can't control so much.

482
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: You can't control so much. So well, you know, you

483
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: could have a horrible process and still succeed. But what

484
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 3: that means is next time you're going to go still

485
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: do that horrible process and probably not have any success

486
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,239
Speaker 3: because you haven't learned and grown from the thing. If

487
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 3: instead you focus on the process, what are the steps

488
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 3: that I need? That's what matters. And the other part

489
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: that I'll say as well is that when we look

490
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: at process orientation, it is often shifting from achieving the

491
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: outcome to what is the experience that I want? So

492
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: what do I want this to feel? Like? What is

493
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: the point of like the journey that I'm going on, Like,

494
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: what's the point of the hunt? Is it just to

495
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: achieve this outcome? Or am I going you know, to

496
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 3: explore my potential? Maybe? And this am I going to

497
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 3: test a new way of you know, tracking, taking downs,

498
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: like using new equipment. Whatever it is, Like, that's the

499
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: experience and if you can focus on that a little

500
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: bit better again, it allows us to come out of

501
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: it with a new way to judge kind of you know,

502
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: our success or failure versus the kind of black or

503
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: white zero some way.

504
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it's it's a little bit tricky

505
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: to do this sometimes because I think we're surrounded by

506
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: an alternative framework for how we should set our goals, right,

507
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: I mean, in most any other place, how is success judged?

508
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: In basketball? Well, how many rings does Lebron have versus

509
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan? Or what was the marathon time or what

510
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: was your minute time? As a hunter, where you know,

511
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: we are taught to you know, did you did you

512
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: kill a deer? Did you do you kill a mature deer,

513
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: how many dear did you kill? How much meats in

514
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: the freezer? Whatever your goal might be. And one of

515
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: the things I've tried to do is, as I've learned

516
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: more and more but this process orientation is better, I've

517
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: tried to try to almost zoom out and try to

518
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: maybe understand, like what does success look like beyond that,

519
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: almost like what are the values that are important to me?

520
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: Or as you said, what are the experiences that are

521
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: important to me? And then work backwards from that and

522
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: so understand, Okay, so high level, what are the things

523
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: that have really mattered to me? Or what brought me

524
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: the most joy? Well it was it was actually all

525
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: the times with my family and friends and those stories

526
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: and that camaraderie and those shared experiences. Okay, that's the thing,

527
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: you know. Maybe actually those best memories, those those stories

528
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: that stick with me, the experiences that I've never forgotten,

529
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: Well that was because I tried something new, where I

530
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: was in a landscape that was spectacular and awe inspiring.

531
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: Or maybe it was because I was teaching somebody something,

532
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: I was sharing my love of this with someone who

533
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 2: is new. So I've tried to identifying these different, bigger

534
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: picture things that then allow me to say, Okay, well

535
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: I identified that, you know, being inspired, being an awe,

536
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: inspiring landscapes, trying new things, all of that has brought

537
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: me a loud joy and satisfaction and fulfillment. Okay, how

538
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: do I know solve for that? Then with my future goals,

539
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: how do I have these experience related goals or process

540
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: related goals that aren't did I kill a deer? But

541
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: are more so, Hey, go and explore a new landscape

542
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: and try this thing with a friend or family member

543
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: that you care about. So this is me rambling on

544
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: what I really want to get to though, is I'm

545
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: curious how do you do this? What is your goal

546
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: setting protocol or how do you execute a process orientation

547
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: as you're trying to achieve things in writing or running

548
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. I'm curious to get a framework

549
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: for that.

550
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: But first off, I love that from you. I think

551
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 3: that's spot on, and I think it gets on something

552
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: that is really important in before giving you my process,

553
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: I'll just highlighted is that by doing that, what you've

554
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: done is you've gone from narrow to broad because like

555
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: the outcome, achievement narrows us right and it blinds us often,

556
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: and you wouldn't if you just wanted to achieve, you'd

557
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 3: keep going back to the places where you know you

558
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: could get the end result. Because going to new place,

559
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 3: the new and onspiring places is risky because you don't

560
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 3: know it as well. You might not be able, you

561
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: might come away with nothing. But by reframing it, you

562
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 3: give yourself a chance to and in the end result

563
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 3: is you might have a better experience and like it

564
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: rejuvenates those intrinsic motivators. So for my process, whether it's

565
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 3: running or writing, is very similar. Is look, I start

566
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: with what is the point? How am I defining success

567
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: around this? And to me, I could say, with writing it,

568
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: you could say, well I need to sell this many

569
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: books that I can you know, achieve this list or

570
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: what have you. But that will drive you nuts. Yeah,

571
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 3: it'll drive you nuts. It'll make it a miserable process.

572
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: So I start with why am I writing this book?

573
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 3: And who am I writing this book for?

574
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: Did you write Mark? Did you write Mark Kenyon? Down

575
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: as that you know?

576
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: That was it? That was the one person?

577
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: Mark?

578
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 3: This is for you, this is it. But now in

579
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: reality it's the things that we talked about like this

580
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: book is for why, It's because something I've struggled with

581
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 3: and I've seen other people struggle with, and I think

582
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 3: modernity has made it ten times worse. So let's put

583
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 3: it out there. Why. Because I want to help people

584
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: like you and I, who are strivers pushers to be

585
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: able to stay in the things that we enjoy and

586
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 3: love for a longer period of time. So that is

587
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: front and center in my mind. Okay, if that's why

588
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: I'm writing it, then I work back from that and say, okay,

589
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,479
Speaker 3: what sort of this is allow me to do that best?

590
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: And in the writing world, what does that mean? It

591
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: means I want to go broad with exploring these ideas

592
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: in a variety of places, because if I just go

593
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: narrow and I talk about running or writing, the two

594
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 3: things that I know best, it might reach runners and writers.

595
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: But I know, again, my end goal is to help

596
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 3: as many people as I can. I know, people from

597
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: hunters to business executives to entrepreneurs based the same thing.

598
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 3: So I need to go broad in my research, broad

599
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 3: in my interviews, broad in my interests, and that puts

600
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: me down this path of Okay, go broad, explore the

601
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: topic and then as I narrow towards the writing process.

602
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 3: Then it goes, Okay, from those broad stories, what do

603
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 3: I think are a going to be most impactful for people?

604
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 3: And then b give them enough evidence to convince them

605
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 3: that this Steve guy is actually giving them stuff that works,

606
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: just making that up and that shapes the kind of

607
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 3: narrative flow or the evidence behind the book, and then

608
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 3: you just kind of go from there. But it's it's

609
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: a simple process from like broad exploration to to narrow

610
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 3: how do I how do I turn this into a book?

611
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 3: And and it's all shaped by that that not how

612
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 3: many books can I sell? But at the end of

613
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: the day, I look back and I say, Okay, given

614
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: everything I've written, do I think this is going to

615
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: help a lot of people? And hopefully I can answer yes.

616
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 3: And guess what If I answer yes, then that motivates

617
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 3: me to do things like your podcast or other podcasts

618
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: or other shows, or write articles that hopefully go wide

619
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: enough to to pique someone's interest and say, hey, I'm

620
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: gonna I'm gonna go check out that book. When the

621
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 3: inside game and a byproduct is yeah, hopefully I sell

622
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 3: enough books to you know, feed my family. But it's

623
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: not the it's not the result. And because of that,

624
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 3: I don't feel that anxiety stress of oh I need

625
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 3: to sell this many books. No, I'm going to have

626
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: a great conversation with Mark who gets it, because like,

627
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: this is an important topic and hopefully it will help

628
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 3: people who are listening to it.

629
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's funny. In my hunting life, I'm not

630
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 2: as good at this, but I am better at this

631
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: in my outside the rest of my career side of life,

632
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: like writing. So I'm an author as well, and I

633
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: end up being in that world. For ninety seven percent

634
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: of us, you don't write a book to get rich, right,

635
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: It's it's not a slam dunk financial proposition for the

636
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: vast majority of us. That said, when I have looked

637
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: at whether or not I'm going to write a book,

638
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 2: I've looked at it as not am I going to

639
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: write this book to make X number of dollars or

640
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: sell X number of copies, but rather will the process

641
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: that I will go through writing that book bring me

642
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: fulfillment and joy and meaning right, And that for me

643
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: has checked a million boxes because I know I'm working

644
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: on as you describe. I know that the process of

645
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 2: writing a book is going to mean that I'm going

646
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: to spend in my case, my kind of books means

647
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to spend a lot of time reading and

648
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: researching topics about wildlife and conservation, the history of our

649
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: natural resources and wildlife and public lands. I'm going to

650
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: learn about something I'm fascinated by. I'm going to have

651
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: to talk to experts in these fields to learn more, again,

652
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: connecting with like minded folks that inspire me and they

653
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: can teach me. I know that I'm going to have

654
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: to go in the field to study and experience these

655
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: things on my own. I know that to promote this book,

656
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: when it's all said and done, I'm going to have

657
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: to go out there and speak with this community and

658
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: share my experiences with the community and hopefully inspire and

659
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: educate this audience. So all of those things, all the

660
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 2: process that leads to writing a book, the actual steps

661
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: I have to take on a day to day basis,

662
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: will bring me joy fulfillment and meaning that right there

663
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 2: there's my success, regardless of whether or not I sell

664
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 2: one copy. So that makes it a very easy win

665
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: for me when I know it, and even if this

666
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: thing doesn't make a dime, all of that is a

667
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 2: huge win. It's much harder for me to somehow translate

668
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: that to the hunting side of my world or to

669
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: running or something like that. And I'm not sure why

670
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: that is.

671
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: I think it's pretty simple. Did you come do you

672
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 3: see yourself as a writer first?

673
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question,

674
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: but probably not.

675
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 3: So same with me. Yeah, I came to writing kind

676
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 3: of secondarily of like it's an avenue to share these things. Yes, yes,

677
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 3: so I think there it's like it's not quite as intertwined,

678
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 3: so it's easier to do that. And hunting, you know,

679
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,479
Speaker 3: early and often is part of who you are. It's

680
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 3: like intertwined with you, same with me on running, so

681
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: it's a little harder to do that, even though I

682
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: bet if we zoomed out and said, like, think of

683
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: the same things, right, maybe it's not interviewing people, but

684
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 3: it's going on hunts with different people or for me,

685
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: like experiencing different races in different places with different groups

686
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 3: and training with different people. That that process is the

687
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 3: same that joy I get from it is probably the

688
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 3: same same as you. But because we're like intertwined a

689
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 3: little bit more with with the thing or the pursuit.

690
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: I think that's where it becomes, you know, more difficult,

691
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: and and that's where I think, you know, we have

692
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: to almost be more aware of that poll because it's

693
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 3: easier in those things that we're intertwined with to kind

694
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: of forget this other world that we we kind of

695
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 3: take for granted in something that yeah, we care about,

696
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 3: but maybe it wasn't always front and center and who

697
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: we are.

698
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when when within the book, as you were

699
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: discussing some alternatives to this mindset, one of the approaches

700
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: you discussed was a mastery approach. And I think you

701
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: were discussing this kind of an educational framework, but I

702
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 2: but I found this idea of a mastery of being

703
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: something that would be really relevant to my world and

704
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: what we do. Is that something you could speak about

705
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: a little bit what that mastery approaches or what that

706
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: or how we might be able to apply something like

707
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: that to a pursuit of any kind.

708
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So the best way to think a mastery

709
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: is to think of a craftsman, right, could be any

710
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 3: sort of craft, but the old school craftsman who is

711
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: spending their time like creating the thing and what we

712
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: know by thinking about like creating or crafting. The thing

713
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: is like, is what is important not of it is

714
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 3: they want to master that subject. Their goal isn't, hey,

715
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 3: I'm going to create the perfect widget or whatever and

716
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 3: to sell it. It's this is my craft, like I'm

717
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: going to be a craftsman. Let's explore it. And when

718
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 3: it comes to the educational standpoint, there's some great research

719
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 3: that shows essentially this is if your goal is to

720
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 3: you know, get a A on the test or score

721
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: a certain you know, score on the SAT or whatever

722
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 3: have you as standardized tests, is that might motivate you

723
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: a little bit. But coming back to what we tied

724
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 3: it talked about earlier, with the outcome orientation, it brings

725
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 3: a lot of fear and anxiety with it. If your goal,

726
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 3: on the other hand, is to understand the subject, meaning

727
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 3: just like you talked about when you're saying I'm gonna

728
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 3: write and I'm gonna have to go understand a lot

729
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 3: about outdoor conservation, that means I'm gonna have to read

730
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 3: a lot of new things and talk to a lot

731
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: of new people. That is mastery because your goal isn't

732
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna go get a PhD. And conservation

733
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 3: so that I can, you know, become the world expert

734
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: and get paid this much to do so. No, it's

735
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: the understanding that is driving the thing. So when we

736
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: look at mastery, whether it's our I almost frame it

737
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: as like an understand and exploration. And when we frame

738
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: that and look at it, it tends to motivate us

739
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: more internally and like tends to build more resilience over

740
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: the long haul. So again it's hard in our own domains,

741
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: but I always come back to that. And in my

742
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 3: own world of running, I've had to shift my viewpoint

743
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: more away from the outcome to what is the what

744
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 3: is the point of running now? And I think when

745
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 3: I go on runs and I challenge myself with hard workouts,

746
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm just going on exploration to see how

747
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 3: how do I navigate this pain and fatigue, because like,

748
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: who cares if I'm running five minute miles or six

749
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 3: minute miles or whatever have you. The experience if I'm

750
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 3: working hard is the same. And if I can work

751
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 3: on how am I going to get better at navigating

752
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 3: of dealing with those like inner doubts of that voice

753
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: in my head that's telling me like hey man, stop,

754
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: Like this is painful, stop doing it. Like mastery is

755
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: about not the end result of the how fast I ran,

756
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 3: but it's like how did I do at like navigating

757
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 3: and exploring my limits on that hard race or hard run.

758
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: And I think we can apply that to basically anything.

759
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of continuing down this path. One of the

760
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: natural things that I think happens, and we've danced around

761
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: this a little bit, but one of the natural things

762
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: that happens when you fall in love with a thing

763
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: and you get good at it is that there is

764
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 2: a there's a very natural tendency to start specializing in

765
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: that thing. When you find your thing, you tend to

766
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 2: want to specialize and get better and better at that.

767
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: And at first, maybe it happens by just happenstance that

768
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: you're in love with this thing so much that you

769
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: just can't stop thinking about it. But then also at

770
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: some point there tends to be maybe a sense of

771
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: obligation that comes about, because like, hey, if you want

772
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: to be the best basketball player you possibly can be,

773
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: you don't you can't have time to go and play bass,

774
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: but you can't do baseball anymore because that should be

775
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 2: when you're doing club ball. That's when you should be doing,

776
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, work in the gym. You if you want

777
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: to be the best possible white tailed deer hunter you

778
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: possibly can be. You know, I've had there are people

779
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: in my world who say this, Hey, you shouldn't be

780
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: You shouldn't go fishing, you shouldn't go hiking, you shouldn't

781
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: go camping, you shouldn't do other things. If you want

782
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 2: to be as good as you should be at this

783
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 2: every day of the year, you should be doing something

784
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: to become a better deer hunter. And when that happens,

785
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: which has happened to me and many other people. You

786
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: talk about in your book about this risk of going

787
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: narrow and cementing is the word that you use, which

788
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: I thought was really interesting. Can you can you discuss

789
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: a little bit more and again we've we've talked about

790
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: this a little bit, but can you speak to it

791
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: a little bit more with that particular vocabulary or what

792
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: that means, what that looks like, and and why you

793
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: know why that tends to lead us more and more

794
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: towards these negative things we've mentioned.

795
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, So here's how I look at it. When you

796
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: cement yourself thing meaning you are the you know, white

797
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: tailed deer Hunter. What we've done is narrowed ourselves so

798
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 3: much and told our brain, and our brain internalizes it

799
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 3: as this is all that matters. This defines who I am,

800
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: whether I achieve my goals or not, you know, reflects

801
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 3: on me as a person because this is my entire world.

802
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 3: And what do you think happens when we tell our

803
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: brain like this is our entire world? It goes into

804
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 3: like do or die mode? And we might sure, you know,

805
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 3: we might think like, oh, do or die? When my

806
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: back is against to all, that's when I perform the best. Well,

807
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: I'm sad to say that even if you look at

808
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 3: research on world class athletes, the vast, vast majority of

809
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 3: people do not. We default towards fear, running away, avoidance, fleeing.

810
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 3: We do not go towards taking on the challenge. And

811
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 3: what research overwhelmingly shows is that, yeah, at some point

812
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: we have to specialize a little bit, but if we

813
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: go too far towards that cementation, it often backfires. This

814
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 3: is why I love the research on There was a

815
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: study a couple of years ago that looked at Nobel

816
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: Prize winning scientists. So you think, like these guys are geniuses,

817
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: like they're in the lab all the time, probably to

818
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 3: get their breakthrough that won them a freaking Nobel. Yeah,

819
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: but if you look at the research, Nobel prize winning

820
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 3: scientists were more likely to have a regular hobby or

821
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 3: other pursuit than those scientists who were still really good

822
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 3: but a rung or two below. And if you look

823
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: at psychology, what it tells us from sport to scientists

824
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 3: to i'd guess hunting, but basically everything is. What it

825
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: does is when we have some diversity to ourself, meaning

826
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 3: there's other hobbies, other interests, is it makes it a

827
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 3: little bit more resilient because if we don't achieve the thing,

828
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: we still have something to fall back on. And I

829
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 3: want to tell you a story real quick on something

830
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: that's not in the book because I forgot about it

831
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 3: until the book was done. But when I was a

832
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 3: young runner, Okay, I was four oh one miler in

833
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 3: high school and then I hit this spot where I

834
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: just didn't improve and it drove me nuts and I

835
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 3: was like so narrow and so all in on running.

836
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 3: And I met with this sports psychologist in college who

837
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: was world class, okay, and he's telling me this story

838
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 3: and he says, hey, Steve, do you know such and

839
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 3: such runner And I'm like, yeah, they were one of

840
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 3: the best in the world. Okay, olympian, one of the best,

841
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 3: fighting for medals, fighting for Olympic gold. And he said, yeah,

842
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 3: you know, she went through a really hard spot and

843
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 3: transitioning from college to pro as well. And I said, okay.

844
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: He goes, do you know you know what helped her

845
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 3: make that jump finally to like this, competing for Olympic medals?

846
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 3: No idea. He looks me dead in the eye and says, knitting.

847
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 3: And I'm like, knitting, are you kidding me? You know,

848
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 3: twenty year old Steve. He said, Look, she used to

849
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 3: go do all her workouts, lift the weights, go all in,

850
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: and then come home and she was worried about lifting

851
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: the weights, doing the workout, what the next race was.

852
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 3: And she just all day when she was sitting on

853
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 3: the couch or watching TV or on the computer, like

854
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: her mind wouldn't let go of it. And that created

855
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 3: such overwhelming anxiety where she never got out of like

856
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 3: the stress mode into the recover repair mode, which was

857
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: where we adapt and grow. And for whatever reason, taking

858
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 3: up knitting and joining a group of knitting friends gave

859
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 3: her that space where body and mind were on something else.

860
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 3: Of course, twenty year old Steve didn't listen to that

861
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 3: because he was like, what are you talking about. I'll

862
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 3: just keep going all in and do Yeah, it didn't work.

863
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 3: I should have I should have taken up knitting or

864
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 3: another hobby. But the point is that's what the research

865
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,919
Speaker 3: literally says. Now, it doesn't have to be knitting, right,

866
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: It could be in your case, as you mentioned, like fishing,

867
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: you know, another type of hunting. Maybe maybe you take

868
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 3: up you know, bow hunting in addition to you know whatever.

869
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 3: And what that does is it diversifies your sense of

870
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 3: self a little bit. And there's research on this tying

871
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 3: it to hormones. So briefly, I'll I'll give you some

872
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 3: some sciences. What if we lose and it's literally all

873
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 3: in on this thing. What happens is our body goes

874
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 3: through a stress hormone release where it just jacks up

875
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 3: our cortisol, which is not good for us. Okay, it

876
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: puts us in this like panic, stressed anxiety state. If

877
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 3: we lose and we have other things that other pursuits

878
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: in our life that matter, we we don't get that

879
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 3: big cortisol release. It's small, and instead we often get

880
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 3: a testosterone release, which often people think test austin is

881
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 3: tied to aggression, but it's actually tied to status. And

882
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 3: we get that testosterone release because our brain realizes, like, yeah,

883
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 3: it sucks to lose at this thing. Guess what I'm

884
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 3: going to go fishing tomorrow instead.

885
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm more than just this thing, bingo.

886
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 3: And that's it makes us resilient and able to perform

887
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 3: in the main thing better than if we're just, you know,

888
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 3: solely focused solely on in Yeah.

889
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: So if you were too right the Steve Magnus rules

890
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: for pursuing excellence in your pursuit, whatever it is, And

891
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,479
Speaker 2: if you had to throw out a handful of these

892
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: guiding principles, what would the first handful of those be

893
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: that come top of mind? If if I want to

894
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 2: be great at my thing, but I want to avoid

895
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: these traps. So you're discussing what should be on my

896
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: list of top commandments, Well.

897
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 3: I think a lot of things we mentioned. Diversifying your interests,

898
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: your pursuits, your meaning. Okay, it will help, I think

899
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: understanding accepting that like winning, outcomes matter, but you better

900
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 3: have some sort of process or mastery approach underlying it,

901
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 3: I think other things that really matter that are often

902
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: not talked about enough are things like surrounding yourself or

903
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 3: creating an environment that allows you to potentially fulfill that

904
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 3: potential to strive for that. So everything from our friends,

905
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 3: our colleagues, our hunting buddies, our training partners, to the

906
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 3: environment we train in all impact us so much, so much,

907
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 3: and if we neglect those things, we're going to be

908
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 3: in a bad state. So I think environment as well.

909
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 3: I think the other things that come to mind are

910
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 3: being able to zoom out and have perspective. So the

911
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 3: reason I think this is really important is because, and

912
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 3: I'm talking to folks like you and I right now,

913
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: is generally the striving or chasing comes naturally and going

914
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 3: in the other direction does not.

915
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: True.

916
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 3: And when it comes to performance, a general rule of

917
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 3: thumb I have is the thing that makes us great

918
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 3: will eventually be the thing that gets in our way.

919
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: So we need to go the other direction, meaning we

920
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 3: need to have things that zoom us out and give

921
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 3: us perspective. Maybe someone else listening to this podcast is

922
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,720
Speaker 3: really good at zooming out and taking perspective and saying, Okay,

923
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 3: it's not life or death. If I, you know, I

924
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 3: get this hunt in great, then you might need to

925
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 3: go the direction and figure out how to stoke that

926
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 3: caring a little bit more right and feeling a little

927
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 3: bit maybe more consequences. That's totally fine, But I think

928
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 3: understanding that the thing that makes you great is going

929
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,919
Speaker 3: to get your way and how to set your life

930
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 3: up so you have skills on the opposite side is

931
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: really really important. And then, uh yeah, other than that,

932
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure I could come up with a

933
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 3: lot more, but we'll start with there.

934
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's perfect, And I want to I guess there's

935
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 2: something related to this which I found really interesting that

936
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 2: that takes up a massive amount of mind space within

937
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 2: the hunting community, which is performance under pressure and performance

938
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 2: in the clutch, right, And I think the argument you

939
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,919
Speaker 2: make in this book is that all of these things

940
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 2: we just discussed leads to poorer performance in high pressure situations,

941
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: It leads to choking, it leads to all of these

942
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 2: things happening. And so you explored this idea of performance

943
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: under pressure kind of a unique roundabout way compared to

944
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 2: many other folks I've seen do this. But I also

945
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: know you've explored this in some of your other work.

946
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: I think you guys talked about some in peak performance,

947
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: but you know, when it comes to hunting, it's a

948
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: very clear, obvious, you know, high pressure moment. There is

949
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: literally a shot that needs to be taken, like a

950
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 2: free throw in a basketball game or a putt in golf.

951
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 2: In this case, you are literally taking a shot, but

952
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: in the most serious situation that you could ever imagine,

953
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: in that your trigger pull or pulling through on the bow.

954
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 2: You are making a lifeboard decision, life or death decision actually,

955
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: and the implications of whether or not you do this

956
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: as well as you possibly can. Either leads to a quick, ethical,

957
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,479
Speaker 2: precise kill of an animal that you do as best

958
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: as you possibly can so it is done the right way,

959
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 2: or it could lead to all sorts of horrible outcomes

960
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 2: which no hunter wants to have happened, a miss and

961
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 2: or wounding an animal that you don't recover, which is

962
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 2: the absolute worst case scenario. So this is something that

963
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: weighs on hunters tremendously. There's a ton of time and

964
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: energy spent on making sure we can perform in those

965
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: moments and not choke. What does the research show, first

966
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: and foremost about why people choke.

967
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 3: All right, So here's what it gets at is the

968
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: combination of psychology and biology, which essentially says all of

969
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 3: those things that you talked about lead to that feeling

970
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 3: and experience of pressure that we all know. Right, it's

971
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 3: when we see the deer the buck and it's like

972
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 3: that our heart jumps right and all of a sudden,

973
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 3: what felt smooth is now kind of jittery and and

974
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 3: hard and spastic.

975
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: Almost. Yeah.

976
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 3: So what happens here is there's two key concepts that

977
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 3: I think are important here. Is our brain is predictive,

978
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: meaning in the scenario, it's sitting there before it even happens.

979
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 3: It's like, what are we going to do if we

980
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 3: see a deer? What are we going to do if

981
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 3: we're standing on the free throw line or standing you know,

982
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 3: about to shoot a penalty kick, and soccer, it's predicting.

983
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 3: What it's trying to do is make sure that you survive.

984
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 3: It's not trying to make sure that you win or

985
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 3: achieve the thing. It's that you survive. So what that

986
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 3: means is it has all these different paths and colloquially

987
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 3: we know them like fight or flight, but the reality

988
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 3: is we have, you know, a dozen different paths, and

989
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 3: with each path comes a different cognitive ability meaning focus.

990
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 3: And then also like biology in terms of like hormones.

991
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 3: So earlier I talked about cortisol stress hormones. Generally, we

992
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 3: get more cortisol when we're in a situation that feels

993
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 3: like a threat. When we're in a situation what feels

994
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 3: like a challenge, we get less cordisol. We get more

995
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: testosterone and more adrenaline, so it feels like we're a

996
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 3: little bit more excited with a tinge of anxiety instead

997
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 3: of anxiety with not a lot of excitement. Which way

998
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 3: we go depends on our brain's predictions. Now, what does

999
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 3: that come down to a couple of different things is

1000
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 3: can we meet the demands of the task before us?

1001
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 3: Meaning have you put in the training, have you been

1002
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 3: in the situation? Does your brain? Can your brain say, hey,

1003
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 3: if we do act y and Z, we're likely going

1004
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 3: to get you know why result If we haven't, then

1005
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 3: it's going to tend to default towards threat mode. Okay,

1006
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 3: because why would it put yourself in that position?

1007
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 2: All that it's making an accurate prediction of the fact

1008
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: that you are not prepared for this moment.

1009
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 3: Right, and you got to think, like the way it's

1010
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 3: thinking of is not I'm going to make you screw

1011
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 3: up the shot. The way to think of it is

1012
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 3: your brand's all essentially going, I'm going to create so

1013
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 3: much anxiety that you don't even want to take the shot,

1014
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: and so they you just escape, you know the other

1015
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 3: part of it. So the last part of it is

1016
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 3: it's also when it comes to that threat or challenge,

1017
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 3: it's it comes back to like how important is this thing?

1018
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 3: And self defining is this thing? Which we've talked about

1019
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 3: a lot. But if it literally feels like if I

1020
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 3: make this shot, I'm the man, or I lose it,

1021
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 3: everybody's going to know I'm a failure, then you're more

1022
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 3: likely just to fault towards that threat mode because again,

1023
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 3: your brain's going to go like, well why take the shot,

1024
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 3: Like I don't want everyone to think I'm a failure,

1025
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 3: Like this is not the juice is not worth the squeeze. Yeah,

1026
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 3: So that combination determines like where our brain kind of

1027
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 3: sends us. So what does that mean when we look

1028
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 3: at like choking and underperformance and that is a we

1029
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 3: want to give it the best evidence that we can

1030
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 3: that we are prepared. That means an accurate appraisal of

1031
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 3: what we're capable of, what we've trained to do, and

1032
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 3: then also an accurate appraisal of the demands of the task.

1033
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 3: So not fooling us again, I know nothing about hunting,

1034
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 3: so sorry if I get this wrong, but not fooling

1035
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 3: us that you know, we normally make a shot at

1036
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 3: you know, fifty meters and this one's one hundred and

1037
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 3: fifty meters and being like, ah, we got it, you know,

1038
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 3: no problem right, No, Oh, you need to know what

1039
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 3: your capabilities are, both personally and with the equipment you have,

1040
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 3: and the accurate appraisal is more likely to put us

1041
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 3: in the challenge than bsing ourselves thro'ugh, this like fake

1042
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 3: macho stuff. So all of that sets the stage. Now.

1043
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 3: The good thing is this is there are tools and

1044
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 3: tips that allow us to kind of nudge towards that

1045
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 3: threat or sorry, nudge towards that challenge response. One of

1046
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 3: the ways, and I'm sure you guys are familiar with this,

1047
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 3: is that if you set yourself up with a routine,

1048
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 3: what does that do? Your brain goes, oh, okay, we've

1049
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 3: been here before.

1050
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 2: Like this.

1051
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 3: These are the same steps that I'm doing right to

1052
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 3: get us There other tools that work well as well

1053
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 3: as like all of your psychology and cognition are all intertwined. So,

1054
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 3: for instance, with our focus, what happens when we're really stressed.

1055
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 3: Instead of you know, being able to like just focus

1056
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 3: on the things that we need to, our brain often

1057
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 3: jumps around. It's thinking like, well, what about I just

1058
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 3: felt a little breeze, what about the wind here?

1059
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 2: Oh?

1060
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 3: What was this sound over here? Maybe I should be

1061
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: focusing on this instead of that Our brain jumps around

1062
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 3: with stress because it's just like looking for stuff. Right.

1063
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 3: We can control that two degree based on how and

1064
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 3: what we focus on. So for instance, there's research and

1065
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 3: there's actually I looked it up, there's someone hunting and

1066
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 3: shooting on this. In addition to sport, interesting is generally

1067
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 3: for successful shots or successful kicks of the penalty kick.

1068
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 3: You can tell, because athletes are individual shooting will have

1069
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 3: what they call a quiet eye moment, meaning right before

1070
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 3: their shot, there's this calmness and focus of the eye

1071
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 3: where it just kind of locks on to where it

1072
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 3: needs to be locked on and it's not darting around,

1073
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 3: you know, doing its secade thing where it's it's very So.

1074
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 2: This isn't like a metaphorical quiet eye or like, oh

1075
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 2: I felt like I was quiet. This is literally a

1076
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 2: physiological They're they're measuring the eye.

1077
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 3: They are literally measuring. They have glasses on that are

1078
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 3: staring at your pupil and measuring the movements of the eye.

1079
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 3: And it will literally in those who are successful, it

1080
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 3: will be a longer period of time where there's this

1081
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 3: quiet eye moment. Versus those who are not, it's generally

1082
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 3: a shorter period.

1083
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

1084
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 3: And the good thing is like, this is to a

1085
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 3: degree trained, how do we get there? That routine matters,

1086
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 3: But it's also in practice when you are like shooting

1087
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 3: or like working on that penalty kick, like understanding what

1088
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 3: are the things that I'm supposed to be focused on.

1089
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 3: For instance, I don't know the hunting research well, but

1090
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 3: in soccer, when you take a penalty kick, if you

1091
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 3: are darting between where you want to shoot it, the

1092
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,919
Speaker 3: ball and the goalkeeper, you are less likely to make

1093
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 3: the shot. If you know that, you know what my

1094
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 3: process is. I'm gonna look at the goalie to see

1095
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 3: where he is, and then I'm gonna, you know, focus

1096
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 3: on a spot and then kick it there. You're more

1097
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 3: likely to do it because you've you've essentially said these

1098
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 3: are the things that are important here. Same with in

1099
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 3: kicking field goals. They found that if athletes feel like

1100
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 3: they're choking, one of the best things they can do

1101
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 3: is like look at kind of just beyond where you

1102
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 3: want to kick it, and just like focus on that

1103
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: thing and just like all your attention there because it

1104
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 3: will like quiet the rest of your brain because your

1105
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 3: brain's getting the idea that this is what matters.

1106
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so simplifying the process almost like dumbing it

1107
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 2: down almost to a few simple focus points.

1108
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 3: That's it. That's what you're doing, because again, what is

1109
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 3: your vision doing. It's telling your brain what do I

1110
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 3: need to pay attention to in this moment When your

1111
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 3: brain is saying like, oh, this is stress mode, I'm

1112
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 3: going to look around and try and find everything that

1113
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 3: I can. The same works if you look at we

1114
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 3: could go a million different ways. But the same goes

1115
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 3: with your breathing.

1116
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 2: Right.

1117
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 3: Why do we say hey, slow, you're breathing down, Because

1118
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 3: what you're doing there taking deep, longer breaths is you're

1119
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 3: telling your brain to send the message that we're not anxious,

1120
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 3: we're calm, right, and when we take deep breasts, our

1121
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 3: brain goes, oh, forget the stress mode, like activate, like

1122
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 3: the quiet, restorative mode. The same goes with our self talk,

1123
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 3: right if it's jumping all over the place and on

1124
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 3: like the negative stuff. What works for self talk when

1125
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 3: you're in those moments literally latching onto a mantra or

1126
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 3: a couple key things and just repeating those and saying like,

1127
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 3: this is what matters, this is what I'm focused on.

1128
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 2: And you know, I've heard a lot of these things,

1129
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: like the reframing idea, the idea of like talking yourself

1130
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 2: through the fact that oh this anxiety and excitement and

1131
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 2: these nerves and my heartbeat going one thousand miles an hour,

1132
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 2: that's not nerves. That's not being nervous. That is me

1133
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 2: being excited for this moment because there's a wonderful opportunity

1134
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 2: ahead of me. I've heard people say this and it

1135
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 2: all sounds great, But I wondered to myself, min, does

1136
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: that actually work in real life? Is there research behind

1137
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 2: something like that? Has that been to some degree quantified?

1138
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 3: Yeah? So the reframing works, but it tends to work

1139
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 3: on what i'd call moderately challenging things and not super challenging. Okay,

1140
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 3: so reframing works when it's like I can handle this.

1141
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 3: I'm feeling a little pressure in anxiety, but I can

1142
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 3: handle this. If it is literally if you are on

1143
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 3: the free thrower line and whether you make it or not,

1144
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 3: win's the NBA Championship. Reframing's not going to work because

1145
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 3: your brain's not dumb. It's not going to be like, yeah,

1146
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 3: this is excitement. No, this is a bit of anxiety.

1147
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 3: So in those sits situations, like what happens is instead

1148
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 3: of trying to reframe it, you accept it. You say, yeah,

1149
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 3: this is some ex anxiety I should be feeling this way.

1150
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 3: That matters. I'm not going to get rid of it.

1151
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 3: It's part of It's just part of it. So what

1152
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 3: are the things that I should be focused on then

1153
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 3: this moment that still allows me to perform? And that's

1154
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 3: where it comes back to, like, literally, what is your

1155
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 3: vision on, what is your thought process on? What are

1156
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 3: your routines that you're going through the Other thing that

1157
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 3: really matters here that we often neglect is also like

1158
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 3: who's around us? If in those moments, if we're with

1159
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 3: teammates who like we really feel connected to, or if

1160
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 3: you're on a hunt with people who truly support you,

1161
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 3: that will allow you to perform in those clutch situations

1162
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 3: a lot better than if it's you alone or if

1163
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 3: like you're surrounded behind people who you know don't support

1164
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 3: you win or lose. So it's also like the environment

1165
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 3: around us that will impact our ability to perform in

1166
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 3: these situations under pressure.

1167
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I liked something you wrote. You said that clutch

1168
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 2: is a state, not a trait. I think that rings

1169
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 2: really true. And I think a state of mind is

1170
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,919
Speaker 2: something you can cultivate. It's not something you're born with,

1171
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 2: it's not something you just get. It's something that you steward,

1172
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 2: that you foster. And that seems like something that any

1173
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 2: one of us can develop, right versus just like, ah, yeah,

1174
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 2: you know Steve's clutch, Mark's not.

1175
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 3: So this is brilliant. And I talked to some your

1176
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 3: spot on. I talked to some people high up in

1177
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 3: the NBA who studied this, because you always hear these

1178
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 3: things like you know, Michael Jordan, he's clutch or whoever

1179
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 3: is clutch and whoever's not, And they studied us with

1180
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 3: all the data and the analytics, and they found that

1181
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 3: basically no one is consistently clutch, meaning no one has

1182
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 3: the clutch gene and just like generally comes through when

1183
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 3: it matters in the research, acts up. Which is why

1184
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 3: I said clutch is a state, not a trade. Is

1185
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 3: sometimes you can get in that state and sometimes you don't.

1186
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 3: But I think what it tells us is that, like

1187
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 3: we all are capable of like cultivating those things right

1188
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 3: and those ingredients that are more likely to push us there.

1189
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 3: It just takes practice and experience, and it takes experience

1190
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:44,720
Speaker 3: as well not not messing up and internalizing that like

1191
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 3: we messed up, because that's going to get in our

1192
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 3: way of getting in that that state in the future.

1193
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the unfortunate but simple truth of the matter

1194
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 2: is that no matter what we're pursuing, whether it's hunting

1195
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 2: or a run or shooting a free throw in the

1196
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 2: NBA finals, we are sometimes going to fail, right, And

1197
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 2: that is something that I think ties back to a

1198
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 2: lot that we discussed at the beginning, like decoupling your

1199
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 2: identity from your outcomes. So in this case, you know

1200
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 2: how I think I guess where I want to kind

1201
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 2: of wrap this up is around this idea of failure

1202
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 2: when you don't achieve your goals, when you miss the

1203
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 2: buck or you missed the free throw. You wrote about

1204
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 2: this in the book about four different components you specifically

1205
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 2: called out for bouncing back from failure. I thought we're

1206
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 2: something that would be very relevant to someone in a

1207
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 2: hunting scenario when you either just for whatever reason, don't

1208
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 2: achieve your hunting goal, or you straight up missed the shot,

1209
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 2: whatever it is. Can you can you speak about those

1210
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 2: four key components that being I don't know if you

1211
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 2: have those right in front of you reading for you,

1212
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 2: just in case you don't. One is shift out of

1213
01:09:55,080 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 2: protect and defend. One's keeping it informational not personal. One

1214
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,600
Speaker 2: is reframing, which we just discussed, and one is revising.

1215
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 2: So could you speak to anyone all four of those

1216
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 2: or any one of them or any other thoughts you

1217
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 2: have on just dealing with failure in such a way

1218
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 2: that it doesn't destroy you and your future success.

1219
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. I think this is really important. We

1220
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 3: often give platitudes to failure, say hey, we've got to,

1221
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 3: you know, learn from it, But what really matters is

1222
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 3: how we internalize and how we handle it.

1223
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and.

1224
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 3: A couple of strategies that you mentioned there that I

1225
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 3: think are really important is generally, when we lose at something,

1226
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 3: it sends our body into this kind of protection stress mode.

1227
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 3: And the longer we stay in that, the more we ruminate,

1228
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 3: we catastrophize, and our brain uses that information for its

1229
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 3: future predictions as like, no, this sucks, and Steve's gonna

1230
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 3: if he's in this spot again, he's going to fail again.

1231
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, vicious cycles it creates.

1232
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 3: It's the vicious cycle. So what we have to do

1233
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 3: step one is get out of that stressed mode. So

1234
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 3: the easiest way to do this, and we've kind of

1235
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 3: danced around it, is in the research backs is up

1236
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:13,600
Speaker 3: is do things with friends that are fun and interesting

1237
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 3: because it literally like the antidote to failure and stress

1238
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 3: is socializing with friends because it shifts our hormones. So

1239
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 3: when we socialize with friends, we get more oxytocin, which

1240
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 3: guess what, that decreases cortisol and increases, you know, the

1241
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 3: good things that allow us to perform again. So socializing

1242
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 3: with friends, being around others, and sometimes even trying to

1243
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 3: make sense of the thing with those who are supportive.

1244
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 3: So there was this wonderful study on rugby professional rugby

1245
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 3: players that showed that after a game, after a tough loss,

1246
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 3: when they went over what went wrong with people who

1247
01:11:56,040 --> 01:12:00,680
Speaker 3: supported them versus strangers when they were a strain, Like

1248
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 3: all the stress hormones go through the roof and they

1249
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,599
Speaker 3: perform wor it's you know, a week down the line

1250
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 3: at their next game. When they did it with friends

1251
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 3: or teammates who supported them or coaches who support them,

1252
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 3: you got the opposite. Good stress hormones put them in

1253
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 3: a recovery state, performed well later. It's the same with us.

1254
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:21,679
Speaker 3: So what's your process in dealing with with failure? Hang

1255
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 3: out with friends, have some way to make sense of it.

1256
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 3: That's what I mean by like informational and not personal

1257
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 3: is have some process, just like a you know, athlete

1258
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 3: reviews the film, to do it in a non threatening

1259
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:37,720
Speaker 3: way where it's like, Okay, how do I learn from

1260
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 3: this and grow from this? And then the last one

1261
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 3: we talked about reframing. But I think the revising is

1262
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 3: really important and it gets at what we've talked all

1263
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 3: about a lot is when it comes to failure or

1264
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 3: even success, the story we tell about it is what

1265
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 3: our brain will use in the future. So how And

1266
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 3: the nice thing is we are in charge of the

1267
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 3: stories we tell. So how are you going to tell

1268
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 3: this story? Are you going to tell it with learning

1269
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 3: and growth and like understanding, or are you gonna tell

1270
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 3: this like super negative cautionary story of like, oh, I'm

1271
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 3: never going to go back to that place again, because

1272
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 3: like how you internalize it will impact your behavior in

1273
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 3: the future.

1274
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 2: And when you say tell your story, I mean you're

1275
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 2: you're not telling about You're not saying how you tell

1276
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 2: the story to your friends. You're saying how you tell

1277
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 2: the story to yourself self? Right? This is like some

1278
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 2: some self compassion here a little bit maybe, right.

1279
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, there's self compassion on it. And we've all

1280
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 3: been tho, Like, here's how I like to think of

1281
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:47,720
Speaker 3: it is, we've all had those experience where internally it

1282
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 3: just gnaws at us. And the way we tell the

1283
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 3: story is like this annoyance, this gnawing feeling, and often

1284
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 3: that puts us in like this negative state. Right, we

1285
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 3: don't have great memories about it, right, yeah, and that

1286
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 3: puts us in that avoidance. So when I say tell

1287
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 3: your story, is like, internally, how are you going to

1288
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 3: do that?

1289
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: Right?

1290
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 3: When you're practicing. When you go back out and practice,

1291
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 3: or you go out on your next hunt and your

1292
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 3: mind goes back to the last one where you came

1293
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 3: up a little bit short. How are you telling yourself that?

1294
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 3: Is it one where you learn, grow, develop or maybe

1295
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 3: even you know, laugh at the outcome? Sucked, But like

1296
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 3: the journey and the Camaradi camaraderie at a big positive effect. Right,

1297
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,799
Speaker 3: that's fine too, But it can't be this big negative

1298
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:45,680
Speaker 3: thing weighing us down, because that's going to put you

1299
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 3: in a state of like fear and threat when you

1300
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 3: come in similar situations in the future.

1301
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to unpack here and so

1302
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 2: much relevance to our world that I'm very glad that

1303
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 2: this this conversation came together. Steve, I can't recommend the

1304
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,920
Speaker 2: book enough to folks. If you haven't yet, definitely need

1305
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 2: to pick up a copy of When the Inside Game

1306
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 2: and when this podcast drops. Initially it's going to be

1307
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 2: just before the book releases, So folks can pre order

1308
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 2: the book where anywhere I'd assume is there a place

1309
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 2: you prefer them to?

1310
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 3: Nope, anywhere books are sold, Get it wherever you want.

1311
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 2: All right, and then can you give us a rundown

1312
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:27,719
Speaker 2: of any other content you want folks to know about

1313
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 2: the books they might be interested in picking up an

1314
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 2: addition to this one, you guys have a great newsletter,

1315
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:34,639
Speaker 2: anything else you want people to know about.

1316
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the best place to find us is

1317
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 3: at our newsletter. It's the Growth Equation Newsletter. You can

1318
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 3: find the links at my website, Steve Magnus dot com.

1319
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm on social media YouTube, Twitter, or x, Instagram,

1320
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 3: all of them at Steve Magnus. That's pretty interesting. And yeah,

1321
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 3: I just appreciate the conversation. And I love having these

1322
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 3: conversations with high performers like yourself, and especially in those

1323
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 3: domains that that aren't my niche, because I think it's

1324
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,320
Speaker 3: so cool to see that regardless of our pursuit, performances,

1325
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:12,760
Speaker 3: performance and the ideas translate across.

1326
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they absolutely do. Steve, thank you so much for

1327
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 2: the time. I really enjoyed this and I'm excited to

1328
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 2: continue to, you know, put these ideas into action and

1329
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 2: continue to see what but you guys share list in

1330
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 2: the future. All right, thank you all for being here.

1331
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed that one as much as I did.

1332
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 2: Definitely recommend you go and check out Steve's books. They

1333
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 2: are first class and I found them really helpful. And

1334
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 2: with that, I'll let you guys get to your rest

1335
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 2: of your days. I appreciate you, and until next time,

1336
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 2: stay wired to Hunt.