Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. So
Speaker 1: this is the final installment of our two part episode
Speaker 1: with Francesca Fiorentini, where we look at the ways that
Speaker 1: harassment online keeps women, particularly women of color and black women,
Speaker 1: from being able to run for and hold public office
Speaker 1: safely and how it impacts our democracy more broadly. So
Speaker 1: in our last episode, we talked about some national leaders
Speaker 1: like Kamala Harris, and in this episode were going in
Speaker 1: to look at some specific women in local public offices
Speaker 1: and the harassment and abuse that they faced just for
Speaker 1: trying to do their jobs. So, you know, we're talking
Speaker 1: about Harris. But I want to make it clear that
Speaker 1: when it comes to women who are running for public office,
Speaker 1: it is not always like flashy candidates with well funded
Speaker 1: campaigns who are like running for a presidential administration. We're
Speaker 1: often talking about women running for like local offices like
Speaker 1: school boards in their community or county commissioners. So I
Speaker 1: want to talk about a few examples of what I mean.
Speaker 1: The first is Tammy Sawyer. Will actually hopefully hear from
Speaker 1: Tammy Sawyer in her own words later in the seas
Speaker 1: and but I want to talk about her time as
Speaker 1: an elected official in Memphis, Inde. So Jammy Sawyer got
Speaker 1: her start in activism. She felt called the public service
Speaker 1: watching the acquittal of George Zimmerman during the murder of
Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin and the grand jury decision not to try
Speaker 1: Darren Wilson to the death of Mike Brown. She became
Speaker 1: a pretty like visible figure in the movement for Black Lives.
Speaker 1: In she organized a visual in honor of Tamir Rice
Speaker 1: at the Health Sciences Park in Memphis. If you've ever
Speaker 1: been there in the last few years, you know that
Speaker 1: it had a statue of Confederate general and klu Klux
Speaker 1: Klan Grand Wizard Nathan Bedford Forrest, the namesake for the
Speaker 1: movie Forrest Gump. Fun fact. In twenty seventeen, Tammy Sawyer
Speaker 1: organized the hashtag take him Down nine oh one movement,
Speaker 1: which led to the statute being removed. In eighteen of August,
Speaker 1: she was elected to Shelby County Commissioner for District seven
Speaker 1: in Memphis. So she was just like visible figure in
Speaker 1: the movement for Black Lives. But that thing that elevated
Speaker 1: her to the public stage also made her a huge
Speaker 1: get for white supremacists. Things came to a head in
Speaker 1: June when she was doing a press conference at this
Speaker 1: park during the actual removal of the monument. So there's
Speaker 1: a little bit of like weird backstory through this like
Speaker 1: very weird compromise. The group Sons of Confederate Veterans were
Speaker 1: responsible for hiring and overseeing the construction project to remove
Speaker 1: this Confederate statue. It sounds like they never wanted the
Speaker 1: statue to be removed in the first place, and the
Speaker 1: team that they put together and hired to remove it
Speaker 1: it seemed to reflect that right this team that they
Speaker 1: had was obviously not thrilled that these statues were coming down,
Speaker 1: to say the least. Yeah, that's an interesting contractor Like yeah,
Speaker 1: like Sons of the Confederate Veterans like a Confederate statue enthusiasts,
Speaker 1: You know, I don't fully get it. No, is there
Speaker 1: no one else who can take down the statues. It's
Speaker 1: just the same people who put them up are also
Speaker 1: the people who take them down. That's the that's the compromise.
Speaker 1: It has to be fair. So the crew hired to
Speaker 1: take down these monuments, they ended up putting Confederate flags
Speaker 1: all over the job site. Uh, it sounds like they
Speaker 1: intentionally covered this like Black Lives Matter mural with bricks
Speaker 1: while working just like petty ship, right, just like petty
Speaker 1: stunt ship. That's that's how they were doing this. For
Speaker 1: whatever reason, I don't fully get like why or how
Speaker 1: this happened, but petty stunt shit. So a member of
Speaker 1: that crew hired to remove the monument, as a man
Speaker 1: named George k Rath Johnson, who is the founding member
Speaker 1: of a group called Confederate nine oh one, who has
Speaker 1: a history of like showing up in places where Confederate
Speaker 1: monuments are being taken down. They were the group if
Speaker 1: you remember, like the group that was protesting a Confederate
Speaker 1: monument being taken down an Ole, miss That was them.
Speaker 1: I found this very interesting. A piece in the Clarion
Speaker 1: Ledger says that the group is mostly white, shocker, but
Speaker 1: they do have a black member who led one of
Speaker 1: their marches in Memphis, so like yea for inclusion. Something
Speaker 1: else to know about this guy is that, in addition
Speaker 1: to you being a founding member of this Confederate group,
Speaker 1: he loves Facebook Live. And here's what he had to
Speaker 1: say about his own presence in Pittsburgh, North Carolina on
Speaker 1: Facebook Live today. I was like, I want to go
Speaker 1: to Chapel Hill, I want to go to Pittsburgh. I
Speaker 1: want to go over to where they've already removed the monuments,
Speaker 1: you know. And honestly, yeah, I was looking to start
Speaker 1: the pot, but hey, they've been stirring the pot for
Speaker 1: a long damn time, and I'm about ready to make
Speaker 1: my own Batchel stew you know, all right, So that's him.
Speaker 1: You want to eat people. That's literally what you're saying.
Speaker 1: What that was? That was my inderstitting as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a very weird growth analogy, and I don't like
Speaker 1: it at all. And so this is this is the
Speaker 1: person who is hired to be part of the construction
Speaker 1: crew to take down this monument, but to do it
Speaker 1: in the stuntiest way possible in Memphis, where Tammy Sawyer
Speaker 1: has like led this campaign to remove his monuments, And
Speaker 1: while Tammy is trying to hold a press conference at
Speaker 1: this park, Johnson stands behind her, marching back and forth
Speaker 1: holding a Confederate flagged. He uses racist insults toward her.
Speaker 1: He sings the Confederate anthem Dixie as he's trying to
Speaker 1: speak God. Here's a little clip of what it sounded
Speaker 1: like outside the Health and Sciences Park in Memphis that day.
Speaker 1: So when they put all of this on social media,
Speaker 1: they continued to threat a life. When they continue to
Speaker 1: do all this, say they're going to be if you
Speaker 1: have it on proper, and they waved their racist confederates
Speaker 1: to move behind. Remember, okay, okay, wrong here to give
Speaker 1: you all the statement and say that this is a
Speaker 1: powerful moment. I was going to connect. I was going
Speaker 1: to connect it to Memphis Massenger. You know who else
Speaker 1: a communist they caught Martini became a communist. They called
Speaker 1: your James a communist when you're a armist. They called
Speaker 1: the Black Panthers communist. James Baldwin was called a connu.
Speaker 1: James Walding Johnson was called a commun Muhammad Ali was
Speaker 1: called a time era Comglas. Make sure you get a
Speaker 1: picture of the man who just ranted my life, the
Speaker 1: man who just said he was gonna lay hands on it,
Speaker 1: and then make sure you go down there when they're body.
Speaker 1: I remember that I do this by myself. No one,
Speaker 1: No one comes with me. Oh no, no security power.
Speaker 1: That's what these people are. Their power. So he said
Speaker 1: you're gonna be by hans Am right high behind the blind,
Speaker 1: he was a man. I'm I'm I'm more a man
Speaker 1: and you are, Yes, Tammy, Yes, Tammy. Remember that Audrey
Speaker 1: Lord once said they will kill you and say you like,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let him kill me, but if he does,
Speaker 1: you know who to go. Fine, right, y'all know where
Speaker 1: to start. So that's really where things kind of come
Speaker 1: to a head. And honestly, it's hard to watch that
Speaker 1: because I really feel for Tammy in that video. You know,
Speaker 1: she's just trying to do her job. She obviously has
Speaker 1: to respond in this moment with like grace because it's
Speaker 1: happening in public, and you don't want to give these
Speaker 1: people any fodder to be like, oh, she deserved it.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't you can't really respond the way
Speaker 1: that you might want to because of all the negative
Speaker 1: stereotypes that women deal with that we talked about earlier.
Speaker 1: And Yeah, I just I really feel for her, Like
Speaker 1: I feel like it's palpable to see that, and she's
Speaker 1: dealing with this alone and and like Tammy. Tammy was
Speaker 1: actually on my podcast The Situation Room a while ago
Speaker 1: before this, and she's the most lovely person, Like she's
Speaker 1: so wonderful and and just like warm and thoughtful and
Speaker 1: fearce and you can and clearly it comes across. But
Speaker 1: it is just funny that, like, yeah, the Confederacy has
Speaker 1: been reduced to a sad man on a random Tuesday
Speaker 1: with nothing to do with a tiny little flag and
Speaker 1: his little you know, his air pods, listening to whatever
Speaker 1: the funk he's listening to, waving his flag behind a
Speaker 1: woman in a friend doing a press conference, like Robert E.
Speaker 1: Lee would be so proud of you, sir, oh God,
Speaker 1: like keep the keep the flame alive, you idiot, Like
Speaker 1: you want to lose again the fun You fucking lost
Speaker 1: the Civil War, bitch, Like I'm sorry, I'm just like
Speaker 1: you can't get over the fact that you goddamn lost
Speaker 1: and you want a stupid monument to your loser ass,
Speaker 1: you know, civil War hero. Shut the funk up. Fun fact,
Speaker 1: the show The Golden Girls lasted longer than the Confederacy,
Speaker 1: So maybe we should have monuments to Yes, we should.
Speaker 1: Sophia deserves her own monument. I, as an Italian woman,
Speaker 1: believe Sophia is our our our queen. Um No, yeah,
Speaker 1: that is It's just so sad it is. And so
Speaker 1: after this interaction, Sawyer filed charges against him and said that,
Speaker 1: you know, he threatened her. During the investigation, it is
Speaker 1: revealed that that same man, after she filed those charges,
Speaker 1: went on Facebook Live and read her address out loud.
Speaker 1: Here's a little bit about how she explains what went
Speaker 1: down after the incident we just heard because he went
Speaker 1: on Facebook Live with a friend and offered out my
Speaker 1: address and actually emailed out my address to people telling
Speaker 1: them to send me cotton and other gifts and uh,
Speaker 1: show me who was in charge in this country. Um,
Speaker 1: and you know threatening that after January, after court that
Speaker 1: mythis and me we're going to face a reckoning because
Speaker 1: of those actions that came to light this weekend. The
Speaker 1: judge was forced to allow the case to continue. But
Speaker 1: the judges also from Dyer County, UM, and he did
Speaker 1: not want the case to continue. And he lectured Mr
Speaker 1: Johnson and told him you have a great lawyer. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, why did you open your mouth? You know,
Speaker 1: don't ruin a good thing, he told him, Son, don't
Speaker 1: ruin a good thing. And so I already see what
Speaker 1: this is going. Wow, that is incredible that that was
Speaker 1: what was discussed and so so what just nothing left
Speaker 1: for you here? I was in court, and when I
Speaker 1: attempted to speak, the judge told me that I don't
Speaker 1: address him. I could talk to the d A. This
Speaker 1: is the same d A that never called me, interviewed me,
Speaker 1: and actually today when the case was continue to be
Speaker 1: set for trial in March, uh said, I'll now have
Speaker 1: to look at this case. I have to be honest.
Speaker 1: I hadn't looked at it because I just knew it
Speaker 1: was going to be dismissed. So this is a six
Speaker 1: month old situation that went viral, that was covered on
Speaker 1: your show and many others. Um, and the d as
Speaker 1: telling me he's never looked at the bio and now
Speaker 1: he's going to have to look at it. Um, there's
Speaker 1: still emotion to dismiss from the defense that will be
Speaker 1: heard on March thirty. Yeah, you can sort of get
Speaker 1: a sense that, like, it doesn't sound like anybody whose
Speaker 1: job it is to give a ship gives a ship.
Speaker 1: She's an elected official. I believe she's still currently the
Speaker 1: commissioner Shelby County Commissioner. No, she was at that point,
Speaker 1: but no longer. She's not like today. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: she at that point, she was still lots of official
Speaker 1: and this is how they were treating uh pretty clear,
Speaker 1: like like problem, you know, it's okay. Also, keep in
Speaker 1: mind she was a county commissioner, right, It's not like
Speaker 1: she had a well funded security detail or like endless
Speaker 1: funds to dedicate to the kinds of like security that
Speaker 1: someone would need in a situation like this, you know,
Speaker 1: after this man made a show of having her address
Speaker 1: and a clear intent to cause her harm. But so
Speaker 1: Tammy had to fundraise for her own security. I should say,
Speaker 1: full disclosure, I do work for an organization that did
Speaker 1: help her fundraise for her security details, So like I
Speaker 1: should add that, But it only makes us like you
Speaker 1: more bridges good. I don't want someone to like find
Speaker 1: that and be like, wait a minute, conflict of interest.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I loved Tammy and I admire her
Speaker 1: work so much, and like, you know, it is what
Speaker 1: it is, like, I like, I can't believe you would
Speaker 1: cover this story. I mean, I thought you had integrity.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, we we saw what happened, and
Speaker 1: it just it felt like nobody had her back, right,
Speaker 1: Like she shouldn't have to. It shouldn't be this this
Speaker 1: barrier and this cost that just she alone has to shoulder.
Speaker 1: Isn't my county commissioners this like lucrative, cushy thing, Like
Speaker 1: she shouldn't have to just like shell out to have
Speaker 1: to have security because some Confederate maniac has a B
Speaker 1: in its bonnet, like I thought it was acceptable. Yes,
Speaker 1: And it's indicative of the fact that most people who
Speaker 1: run for elected office and who get elected are themselves wealthy,
Speaker 1: and they're usually white dudes, um, and they have generational wealth,
Speaker 1: they're or they're independently wealthy, whatever the case may be,
Speaker 1: and they can afford a security detail. But again, as
Speaker 1: you've discussed and laid out, mostly when you are a
Speaker 1: white man in office, you do not face those kinds
Speaker 1: of threats the way women and women of color do.
Speaker 1: And it goes from I mean from tammy to AOC
Speaker 1: on you know, on a federal level, I guess, or
Speaker 1: in in Congress, you know, AOC saying we need security
Speaker 1: and this is after January six, right, this is like
Speaker 1: we need better security in and around the capital, and
Speaker 1: it seems like that's only reserved for people who um
Speaker 1: like the speaker or um who people who just privately
Speaker 1: funded themselves and who's got the money for that? I
Speaker 1: mean this is ostensibly these should be public servants, and
Speaker 1: this is the mint that they're just the least we
Speaker 1: could do for them, exactly. And if we're saying we
Speaker 1: want to have a representative democracy where lots of different
Speaker 1: folks from lots of different backgrounds can be public servants,
Speaker 1: that should include people who I'm sorry can't afford a
Speaker 1: private security details. Shouldn't this be for wealthy people? And
Speaker 1: I feel like we are creating a situation where the
Speaker 1: only people who can reasonably and safely hold public office
Speaker 1: are people who have independent wealth to pay the astronomical
Speaker 1: costs that are involved with security and online and offline security.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's a real problem. And you know,
Speaker 1: I should say, like with the Tammy Sawyer situation, the
Speaker 1: charges were eventually dropped against the person who was harassing her,
Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like Tammy felt like this case
Speaker 1: was not handled seriously. She talks about how the judge
Speaker 1: was like really paling it up with with the with
Speaker 1: the defendant who she says was harassing her. And when
Speaker 1: the judge was like, oh, you know, why did that
Speaker 1: don't go on Facebook live? It wasn't because he wanted
Speaker 1: Tammy to feel safe. It was because he didn't want
Speaker 1: that guy to make his case that much harder to
Speaker 1: have him be dismissed. And so when when the charges
Speaker 1: were dismissed, Tammy wrote on Facebook, she said, but even
Speaker 1: though the judge called his actions pathetic, he could not
Speaker 1: identify a reasonable level of fear on her part. And
Speaker 1: so I would actually argue that that that that like weird.
Speaker 1: I know, it's so funked up, and like I think
Speaker 1: that weird vibe. That tightrope of like I have to
Speaker 1: show public grace kind of creates this impossible situation where
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, you can handle it. Like you're
Speaker 1: a black woman. It's just like part of showing up
Speaker 1: and being a visible black woman. You're not afraid whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1: And I think that's part of it. It's an impossible
Speaker 1: situation that we face. You're used to it, no it
Speaker 1: Imagine if she had freaked out in that video, Imagine
Speaker 1: if she'd gotten angry, right, it would have been used
Speaker 1: against her. She homie would have that other dude, the
Speaker 1: dude would have used it to file charges against her, right,
Speaker 1: and you know that would have flown and he would
Speaker 1: like he would have loved that. He was just waiting
Speaker 1: for her to go off on him, and she didn't.
Speaker 1: She had to keep her cool, um, which is asked
Speaker 1: of marginalized people all the time, because when you raise
Speaker 1: your voice somehow that is uh, that's a threat. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the other thing I was gonna say, and
Speaker 1: this is a terrible comparison, but when it comes to
Speaker 1: the justice system, it's just right there for the taking.
Speaker 1: Like you know that rape victims are their cases are
Speaker 1: not taken seriously often if they don't quote unquote fight back, right,
Speaker 1: so and in this case, oh, she wasn't afraid. She
Speaker 1: wasn't afraid because she didn't raise her voice, or she
Speaker 1: didn't run. She wasn't physically running at the time. Um,
Speaker 1: so therefore there was no fear. Like what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? This is all about surviving And I just,
Speaker 1: I mean, you bring up such a good point about
Speaker 1: the ways that he really just failed survivors and made
Speaker 1: and made survivors walk a really impossible tight rope in
Speaker 1: public and it's just really fucked up. And yeah, it
Speaker 1: makes me very sad. And today Timmy Sawyer is no
Speaker 1: longer in public office. She is pursuing a PhD. And
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, Like she's still doing great things,
Speaker 1: Like we will hear her. I am so sure we're
Speaker 1: gonna hear her name again, Like just because she's no
Speaker 1: longer in public office. I don't think this is like
Speaker 1: the end of her band of her road by by
Speaker 1: any margin. But I do think that we should acknowledge
Speaker 1: this like added burden that she was forced to carry
Speaker 1: because of her identity, you know, pursuving charges against somebody
Speaker 1: who gave out her address and encourage people to harass her.
Speaker 1: And it's like we rather than taking the time to
Speaker 1: really reflect on that or acknowledge that, we just move on.
Speaker 1: We were just like, oh yeah, like it just it
Speaker 1: just feels like a footnote as opposed to something that
Speaker 1: is a real marker of our democracy and and how
Speaker 1: unwell our democratic system is right now. It's also it
Speaker 1: reminds me of like she was working with Black Voters
Speaker 1: Matter when I had her on, So she also done
Speaker 1: incredible activism and and you're totally right, we'll continue to
Speaker 1: do so. But it reminds me of like a women
Speaker 1: in comedy, you know, where it's like a lot of
Speaker 1: male bookers will be like, well, look, I would put
Speaker 1: more women on my show. But like, they're not any
Speaker 1: good women there. I don't know any female comics. It's
Speaker 1: like number one, you're you're blind, and there are tons
Speaker 1: of amazing women female comics. But also it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: look at the industry at large, like look at the
Speaker 1: culture of comedy. In a lot of ways, we don't
Speaker 1: have hr. There's not it's like a not a safe
Speaker 1: space specifically for women and for women of color. The
Speaker 1: comedy space just isn't, you know, right, Like and and
Speaker 1: it's the same thing with elected office. It's just like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, we we love to have like some kind
Speaker 1: of quota or have like more women in office, but
Speaker 1: just they don't run. And and and I think Republicans
Speaker 1: are so guilty of that too, you know, because it's
Speaker 1: like they have what like three female senators. It's just
Speaker 1: it's like the lowest in in internationally. I think the
Speaker 1: US Congress is one of the least representative bodies when
Speaker 1: it comes to gender and so and like and he's
Speaker 1: just like, well, we we'd we'd support them if they
Speaker 1: would run for office. No, they run for office, they
Speaker 1: just get torn down. I mean, I'm also thinking of
Speaker 1: someone like Katie Hill in California, like they get torn
Speaker 1: the funk apart. So yeah, yeah, and it's funny that
Speaker 1: you mean not funny. But what Katie Hill went through
Speaker 1: was a sex crime. Like she was the victim of
Speaker 1: a sex crime by a an ex romantic partner who
Speaker 1: was like like harassing her. And yet it's like we
Speaker 1: just allow we just have a really fucked up culture
Speaker 1: when it comes to women. I guess I'll just say that,
Speaker 1: like all I can really say. So I want to
Speaker 1: talk about one more elected official and her experience in
Speaker 1: public office, KEYA. Morris. She made history in twenty four
Speaker 1: tenez Vermont's only black woman lawmaker. Her husband James, grew
Speaker 1: up in Bennington, Vermont, and she went to college in Chicago,
Speaker 1: but relocated back to Vermont to become a lawmaker. Her
Speaker 1: career was very short lived because it was completely derailed
Speaker 1: by online harassment and violent threats by self proclaimed white
Speaker 1: nationalist Max Mish. Mish was kind of known as like
Speaker 1: a violent his name is Max Mish, Max Mish, Dude,
Speaker 1: white nationalists have the dumbest name. They really do match.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just like that is the stupid anyway. Sorry,
Speaker 1: it's like Mickey mouse name. That's amazing, so stupid. So
Speaker 1: he's kind of like, no, like a known violent asshole.
Speaker 1: Side note, he looks exactly like whatever you're thinking that
Speaker 1: he looks like. Based on the behavior I'm meant to describe,
Speaker 1: I can tell you that you're right, whatever you're thinking. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's what he looks like. Very red faced, super red face.
Speaker 1: You got it, you got it. So mission he planned
Speaker 1: guilty to both first degree aggravated domestic assault and disorderly
Speaker 1: conduct as a hate crime. So he has this like
Speaker 1: he doesn't have a great like he's like a known
Speaker 1: ship head, I guess. So he's been through a lot,
Speaker 1: is what you're saying. Yeah, he's just a real victim,
Speaker 1: you know. And so Kia when she supports a gun
Speaker 1: safety bill, she starts to experience animosity from gun rights
Speaker 1: advocates in Vermont because of her support of this legislation. Now,
Speaker 1: many legislators and the governor were targeted with like angry
Speaker 1: mail and messages over this this law. But the kind
Speaker 1: of content that she gets is very different because she's
Speaker 1: a black woman and the only black woman in the legislature.
Speaker 1: So you know, she's not just getting like, oh, we
Speaker 1: didn't like that you support this bill. She's getting frightening,
Speaker 1: horrific racist messages, particularly from Max. Miss Max starts sending
Speaker 1: her these like racist memes on Twitter and elsewhere about
Speaker 1: her support for the bill. Kia says that she gets
Speaker 1: an uptick in in the intensity of this kind of
Speaker 1: harassment after a columnist for the white supremacist website The
Speaker 1: Info Stormer posted about her reelection and starts tagging like
Speaker 1: residents in it the Stormer. Sorry, I had to give
Speaker 1: that a moment. I know, I feel like it's like
Speaker 1: we stormed the truth. They're like putting a bunch of
Speaker 1: words into like an AI generator or something, and it's
Speaker 1: like Info Stormer, that's gonna be it, Like you mean
Speaker 1: Daily Stormer. No, we're like a breakaway of the Daily
Speaker 1: storm Er. Who even is that exactly? It's so ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And so in a ten page report published by the
Speaker 1: Vermont Attorney's General Attorney General's Office and outlines almost fifty
Speaker 1: instances of threatening behavior where her or her family or
Speaker 1: her neighbors called the police. And so first Vermont, you guys,
Speaker 1: And it's funny because you think of Vermont is like
Speaker 1: a progressive state, but you know, it's like this should happens.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just Bernie building a fire endlessly
Speaker 1: and and the and the coat factory or like wearing Mitten's. Exactly,
Speaker 1: it's Vermont. It's more than Mitten's. It's actually the slug. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's what Max Mish wants. Like they
Speaker 1: these guys must be so mad that Bernie like put
Speaker 1: them on the map as like as a governor Vermont
Speaker 1: as a Republican. Yeah, it's one of those states, right,
Speaker 1: It's one of those sort of like it's kind of
Speaker 1: a Max miss state, you know, it's a state like
Speaker 1: MAXI missology. They're governors. But I think it's his Phil
Speaker 1: Scott and he's like this is like his fourth time.
Speaker 1: And and it was the one issue that Sanders, like
Speaker 1: Clinton was to the left of Sanders on because there's
Speaker 1: so many guns enthusiasts in Vermont and SAMs was I mean,
Speaker 1: I think now that's like, I mean, how many mass
Speaker 1: shootings has there been since seen? Right? So even now
Speaker 1: I don't think he can hold that line. But it's
Speaker 1: been the sort of one gray area where he was
Speaker 1: like had to appease the gun folks in his state. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get. I get. I mean, like honestly researching this episode,
Speaker 1: I get it. I was like, oh, I don't think
Speaker 1: I realized how fervent gun ideology is. Like I live
Speaker 1: in d C, so like there's gun crimes here, but
Speaker 1: like individuals don't have the same kind of um connection
Speaker 1: to it. And when I was researching this episode, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, Like I forget how different it
Speaker 1: is in different states that like it's a real issue, right,
Speaker 1: It's it's they're they're all arming up for the imagined crime,
Speaker 1: whereas like d C actually has a little bit of it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the kinds of messages that she's getting from MAXI
Speaker 1: Mish are just racist garbage. You know, go back to Africa.
Speaker 1: That's the only place that you'll be safe, that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, Right, And so in August she files a
Speaker 1: complaint the FBI where she says if this guy and
Speaker 1: his associates are harassing her on Twitter, But as online
Speaker 1: harassment often works, it doesn't just stay online. It bleeds
Speaker 1: from Twitter and Facebook into her offline life. On election Day,
Speaker 1: she's doing in a campaign added a polling place and
Speaker 1: she sees this guy Max. They're staring at her and
Speaker 1: weirding her out. Then somebody breaks into her home. They
Speaker 1: stole about a hundred of her husband's neckties and littered
Speaker 1: them across a cemetery in her home. It's very weird.
Speaker 1: It's like a very weird thing. So can you imagine
Speaker 1: them getting together and be like, so, which what should
Speaker 1: we do? You know, should we like should we put
Speaker 1: like a horse in her bed like in you know, godfather, No,
Speaker 1: I saw this one thing on like the Lifetime channel.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do the neck ties, the necktie thing, Pete,
Speaker 1: I don't know if we should do the No, trust me,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do the necktie thing. It'll be it'll be crazy.
Speaker 1: We just put a little necktie on every single gravestone.
Speaker 1: It's such it's such a weird, specific like way to
Speaker 1: funk with somebody. Yes, so bizarre. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: a it's like a snowman but of but of headstones,
Speaker 1: and you probably you know, we we're gonna get the
Speaker 1: corn cob pipe and the carrot knows and then one
Speaker 1: of their neckties. It will freak her out. I mean
Speaker 1: I probably mission accomplished. Yeah, she was completely freaked out. Also,
Speaker 1: her home was vandalized with paintballs, but then we're gonna
Speaker 1: bake her a pie, so one hot piping apple pie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of mixed signals from these answers. A house
Speaker 1: nearby that has a ton of her Like campaign paraphernalia
Speaker 1: on their windows gets a racist mail er shoved under
Speaker 1: the door, and then her babysitter reports that a man
Speaker 1: in a car outside of her home is recording their house.
Speaker 1: So let's just like weird, like weird scary ship that
Speaker 1: maybe does not like I kind of see whoever is
Speaker 1: doing this. It kind of seems like they're trying to
Speaker 1: operate on a level of like it's enough to freak
Speaker 1: you out, but not enough to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of crime that the police would take seriously.
Speaker 1: Like I feel like they're they're really walking a line
Speaker 1: of like it has to be scary, but not scary
Speaker 1: enough that like somebody in power would take this seriously.
Speaker 1: But that's sort of the the tricky thing with harassment generally, right,
Speaker 1: and with like crimes, whether they be I mean, especially
Speaker 1: sexual crimes. But like is that gray area and it's
Speaker 1: the sort of you know, I know it's overused, but
Speaker 1: that microaggression, but this is obviously much more than that,
Speaker 1: like the micro the stocking, right, the harassing and harassment.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, did he enter with a gun? Did he? Like? No, buddy,
Speaker 1: there's a car outside. Uh someone's filming me. And it's
Speaker 1: just like and of course, um cops not the most empathetic,
Speaker 1: not the best at dealing with some of these. The
Speaker 1: warning signs, which by the way, is really just hey,
Speaker 1: do you have a history of DV Yeah, then you
Speaker 1: should have someone tailing you at all times because likely
Speaker 1: you're gonna do some other ship to somebody else, and
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't have a gun, and you definitely shouldn't
Speaker 1: have a gun, like just some common sense like, yeah,
Speaker 1: if you've been threatening your domestic partner, maybe let's not
Speaker 1: get a gun in the mix, Like just you know.
Speaker 1: Uh So the police, it sounds like, don't really do anything,
Speaker 1: Like they don't she when when they when somebody breaks
Speaker 1: into her house, they don't like take fingerprints or whatever.
Speaker 1: She gets a restraining order against him, but it only
Speaker 1: lasts for one year. After the restraining order expires, Max
Speaker 1: Miss contacts her again on social media, writing on Twitter,
Speaker 1: you will never silence me. Every time you attend a
Speaker 1: political rally, at the Four Corners or another local venue,
Speaker 1: and I'm aware of the event. I will troll the
Speaker 1: hell out of you and other subversives there. Maybe I'll
Speaker 1: bring a friend or three with me to stop pushing
Speaker 1: social justice on your nearly entirely white constituency in Bennington, Vermont.
Speaker 1: Go back to Chicago if you want to engage in
Speaker 1: social justice warrior bullshit. We will continue to fight against
Speaker 1: you and your efforts to make our town and state
Speaker 1: look more like your mongrel son pretty fucked up, like
Speaker 1: not good and so I understand why she was like
Speaker 1: terrified and unnerved. But unfortunately the Attorney General declines to
Speaker 1: press charges against this guy, explaining that in this case,
Speaker 1: the online communications that were sent to Ms Morris by
Speaker 1: Max Mish and others were clearly racist and offensive. However,
Speaker 1: the First Amendment does not make speech sanctionable merely because
Speaker 1: it is objectionable. The question here is whether the messages
Speaker 1: and context were communicating a serious expression of intent to
Speaker 1: harm Miss More's or her family. Yes, sorry, I don't
Speaker 1: mean interrupt, Yes, yes yes. The fact that a number
Speaker 1: of the messages were directed at her as in her
Speaker 1: role as an elected official racist. The issue of whether
Speaker 1: they were intended to express political opposition through the use
Speaker 1: of hyperbole and insult, as known in the case above. Therefore,
Speaker 1: there appears to be insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges
Speaker 1: under Vermont law. Bullshit. I mean, that's such bullshit that
Speaker 1: because that's that's basically like, well, it's open season, you know.
Speaker 1: And here we are in a moment where it's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, someone protested outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home,
Speaker 1: Like how dare you? You know? What? We really need
Speaker 1: to beef up security on um white men in power,
Speaker 1: like or the Supreme Court is just being targeted, Like no,
Speaker 1: these are the stories that happen all the time on
Speaker 1: a local level. People have been harassed for decades and
Speaker 1: we don't hear it. Gabby Gifford Scott has to get
Speaker 1: shot in the head and we still don't have security
Speaker 1: details for elected officials. I mean, it's just how many
Speaker 1: more instances do you need? And it was so perfect.
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, we we know who we choose to protect.
Speaker 1: We know when people raise the alarm. It's when fucking
Speaker 1: Ted Cruise gets strolled a Yankees game. And then it's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, yeah, and it creates this like really
Speaker 1: obviously false, frustrating both sides narrative of like, oh, they
Speaker 1: both sides do it, and it's like, wow, someone writing
Speaker 1: in chalk outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home is different than
Speaker 1: like breaking in the Nancy Pelosi's home and hitting her
Speaker 1: husband on the head with a hammer. It's like those
Speaker 1: are not analga, so like, let's not pretend that they are. Like,
Speaker 1: I hate this vibe of like I think that political
Speaker 1: violence and threats against elected officials as like a should
Speaker 1: be a nonpartisan issue, but I hate this on this
Speaker 1: vibe that like we have to be completely disingenuous about
Speaker 1: which side is doing it in a way that it's
Speaker 1: like much more fucking scary. Yes, so case closed. They're
Speaker 1: not going to present charges against this guy. There's a
Speaker 1: press conference where the d A is announcing that he
Speaker 1: does not intend to press charges against Max Miish. After
Speaker 1: the d A speaks about freedom of speech, Kia gets
Speaker 1: up to the podium to speak and guests who comes
Speaker 1: in Max Mish. He's wearing a Peppe the Frog shirt
Speaker 1: and you can hear everyone's reaction when he enters here. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: a lot everybody. You don't have to put upstation new
Speaker 1: We're here at one side. I went to say something
Speaker 1: to please, so I'm happy to take other questions other
Speaker 1: than that federal ways violent colds. I don't believe so meeting.
Speaker 1: This is not that that I'm going to conclude the
Speaker 1: press conference unless there are other questions. I like to say,
Speaker 1: this is not as a political opponent was accused of
Speaker 1: being your Nazi. Myself, I think we're here on one
Speaker 1: side of the story. Oh my god, this is failed
Speaker 1: wall maker. Kevin hoyt ys politics, and I was called
Speaker 1: the Nazi. I was called the white supremacie. Probably are
Speaker 1: my guy. Obviously racism exists, and from my steak, it's like, hey, right,
Speaker 1: it's crazy. We don't want these things. Whether we're part
Speaker 1: of our fabric of society, I question to one degree,
Speaker 1: though I call bullshit. I'm miss Morris. I think, okay,
Speaker 1: so you kind of get the idea. Kevin hoyte Is
Speaker 1: is like we folks are in just he's he's his
Speaker 1: own like weird guy who folks. You can look at
Speaker 1: him up if you're interested, But it's so so funny
Speaker 1: that he's like I was also unfairly called a Nazi,
Speaker 1: and I think we should let him speak. It is
Speaker 1: just wild, right, like complete pandemonium. Onlookers use their jackets
Speaker 1: to try to block mish Um. It's this big dramatic scene,
Speaker 1: but not to Max mish to him, and it's all
Speaker 1: a big joke. He told the Free Press, I am
Speaker 1: a troll. I like it. I like this, like it's
Speaker 1: just funny into him And so I would have to
Speaker 1: play a little clip of him responding to the Free
Speaker 1: Press because I can, Yes, you can. Absolutely. I didn't
Speaker 1: explain why you do that, but that's why we were
Speaker 1: holding up our coats so that people of color don't
Speaker 1: have to see that hate. And we're surrounding you and
Speaker 1: we don't like it. It's it's vile. Yes, you have
Speaker 1: the right to put the shirt on, but I have
Speaker 1: the right to tell you that it's hateful, it's cruel,
Speaker 1: and it's vile. I mean, you can cry about all
Speaker 1: you want. I don't care. I'm not crying. I'm pissed.
Speaker 1: It's Max. Are you intentionally being provocative? That's what people? Yes?
Speaker 1: Why why are you being provocative? Electrolling people? It's fun
Speaker 1: having that concept for doing it. So he's clearly just
Speaker 1: someone who likes to like like this is a joke
Speaker 1: to him. I don't think that he's any of this
Speaker 1: is serious to him. I think it's just a joke.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, if mom at a shirt, I'm like,
Speaker 1: just like mom issues in a person, you know, like, um,
Speaker 1: it's because I want to attend because I didn't get
Speaker 1: enough as a child and no one will play with
Speaker 1: me and one time they ditched me in the sandbox
Speaker 1: for like the volleyball court and I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to play volleyball, and uh, you know, it's just like
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god, go to therapy, bro, go
Speaker 1: to therapy. People like again, what is it? What will
Speaker 1: it take? And I think that's the woman who's like, yes,
Speaker 1: I have the right to also, you know, stand in
Speaker 1: front of you and call you hateful. She was excellent.
Speaker 1: And then she points out that the media is going
Speaker 1: to the provocateur and saying, which is just a really
Speaker 1: funny statement. I mean, I don't no disrespect to local news,
Speaker 1: but like or the free press, but like it is
Speaker 1: very funny to be like, are you being intentionally provocative?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like what is the other answer to that? No,
Speaker 1: in my heart of hearts, I do believe that white
Speaker 1: people are a superior race, Like, huh, interesting, expound on that,
Speaker 1: you know, like, what, what's the other answer? Yes, he's
Speaker 1: being provocative on per this does it as have to
Speaker 1: do with his fund up ideology? Doesn't even matter? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and ask him about that with a camera with a
Speaker 1: bunch of camera crews in his face, like, sir, are
Speaker 1: you intentionally being provocative? Are we? Like it's like you're
Speaker 1: providing the answer is clearly yes, and you're providing him
Speaker 1: the exact thing that the provocateur wants a platform. And
Speaker 1: this is and I think it's important to remember, I believe,
Speaker 1: or maybe fifteen, but kind of when the media was
Speaker 1: lending a platform to people like Richard Spencer, people like
Speaker 1: these sort of you know, um Nazis in suits or
Speaker 1: sort of you know, and and on on the cusp
Speaker 1: of the election of Donald Trump, effectively saying maybe we
Speaker 1: need to listen to Nazis a little bit more. And
Speaker 1: now that they've made their message a little more couth
Speaker 1: and digestible, Um, you know, hey, they're not a hateful.
Speaker 1: They just believe we should live in separate communities for
Speaker 1: people of color and white people. And there's nothing hateful
Speaker 1: about that, Like I mean just the mind trick that
Speaker 1: I think white nationalists pulled on the media and the
Speaker 1: media in turn pulled on us. We're seeing that in
Speaker 1: a microcosm in this example that you that you brought up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it infuriates me and I will never forget this. There's
Speaker 1: a there's a and I like the publication for the
Speaker 1: most part, but like there's a Mother Jones piece where
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, the the dapper white supremacists walking through
Speaker 1: town like that, I I feel like I it's like
Speaker 1: burned into my memory of like what are we doing,
Speaker 1: what are we normalizing, what are we glamorizing? What are
Speaker 1: we giving a platform? And the thing that bucks with
Speaker 1: me is I worry that we learned nothing. I worry
Speaker 1: that when I when I look at like how the
Speaker 1: media is covering somebody like Rhonda Santas for instance, I
Speaker 1: worry that we have learned nothing. The media has learned
Speaker 1: nothing about what kind of hateful, bullshit ideology they will
Speaker 1: amplify and normalize. Despite the fact that he's like rentalizing
Speaker 1: trans youth and ship and like putting, you know, putting
Speaker 1: immigrants on busses and ship, like rewriting history books. It
Speaker 1: infuriates me the way that this kind of like horse
Speaker 1: race kind of political converage is going. I see us
Speaker 1: poised to do the same thing again where I see
Speaker 1: these memes about like Rhonda Santis it's tall or like
Speaker 1: things like that, where like, yeah, he's also like a
Speaker 1: hate monger. Can we talk about that? Right? They're just
Speaker 1: so desperate to move on from Trump, even though they're not.
Speaker 1: I think there's just this. I mean, that's like our
Speaker 1: political system is such especially and the media is like following.
Speaker 1: The political system is so reliant on the idea that
Speaker 1: there are two rational actors. Obviously, we have all of
Speaker 1: two parties in this country, and they're both rational and
Speaker 1: they're both great, and we can level with them, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's a balance of powers. And it's like, no,
Speaker 1: it's not, it's bullshit. The one side doesn't believe in
Speaker 1: a balance of powers. They believe in authoritarianism. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're you're, you're absolutely right. I'm because it is exactly that.
Speaker 1: Rhonda Santis is the buttoned up Donald Trump and Richard
Speaker 1: Spencer is the buttoned up David Duke. Right, And so
Speaker 1: as long as he's not openly saying he's a member
Speaker 1: of the KKK. It's all good and well. Even though
Speaker 1: people hild Hitler in his little you know, like hotel
Speaker 1: speech when Trump won, that's fine because he's in a
Speaker 1: suit and he's got a nice haircut. Yeah, I God,
Speaker 1: I want us to be better. We did. We deserve
Speaker 1: a better we did. We deserve better media that can
Speaker 1: like tell a better version of these stories that isn't
Speaker 1: so harmful, Like like I'm exhausted because I know we're
Speaker 1: not going to get it. Yeah. And also there's enough
Speaker 1: on the Democratic side, Like there's enough, and we got
Speaker 1: a lot of like conservative Dems. There's tons of drama
Speaker 1: on this side. Talk about those folks. But anyway, I
Speaker 1: beg Chris. So, while all of this was happening to Kia,
Speaker 1: her husband James was in very poor health and he
Speaker 1: had to have open heart search. So I know, like
Speaker 1: this ship had to be stressful for her, and so,
Speaker 1: perhaps not surprisingly, ten days after she won the Democratic
Speaker 1: nomination for a third term as state representative, she announced
Speaker 1: that she was dropping her campaign and packed up and
Speaker 1: left town shortly thereafter for her family's safety. Um, she
Speaker 1: this is really sad, Like she talks about how her son,
Speaker 1: who at the time was seven, saw the threats that
Speaker 1: she got, like saw them and like understood them and
Speaker 1: had questions about them, and was so scared that he
Speaker 1: built a tried to build a panic room in their
Speaker 1: home out of his closet. It's like it is scary
Speaker 1: and sad. And after she left town, Mish was quoted
Speaker 1: as saying, I won. I did it, so yeah, just
Speaker 1: a real piece of ship. Good for you, asshole. I
Speaker 1: hope it's given. You know, he's still unhappy, isn't that crazy?
Speaker 1: I think he's still unhappy. He's still insufferable, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: This is this is the threat of equality. This is
Speaker 1: what I mean. I love it, Like you want social justice, Like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? This is a predominantly white state,
Speaker 1: a predominantly white electorate, predominantly white you know whatever state.
Speaker 1: Body Like, in no way is she trying again by
Speaker 1: her mere existence, her mere existence and the threat, the
Speaker 1: supposed threat of one day there could be equality, one
Speaker 1: day there could be two keya Morris is, Oh my
Speaker 1: godture and and then it'll be all over. I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll still have the power, white dudes, but we'll feel
Speaker 1: like we don't because someone's gonna quote Audrey Lord to
Speaker 1: us and what or like someone's gonna like want to
Speaker 1: create a program for black youth in our state. Like,
Speaker 1: So this story does not end there, because if you're thinking, wow,
Speaker 1: it sounds like officials didn't do a great job of
Speaker 1: taking the situation seriously or investigating it, you would be right.
Speaker 1: After Kia left office, she fouled a complaint with Vermont's
Speaker 1: Human Rights Commission in twenty nineteen alleged discrimination by the
Speaker 1: police department and the Town of Bennington. An investigation found
Speaker 1: that the Bennington police chief failed to disclose relevant information
Speaker 1: about her harasser to her, including his possession of high
Speaker 1: capacity firearms and details of an interview that they did
Speaker 1: with his ex wife where she expressed concern for Kia's safety.
Speaker 1: The investigator recommended that the commission find reasonable grounds at
Speaker 1: the town of Bennington discriminated against her on the basis
Speaker 1: of race and color, and the town had to publicly
Speaker 1: apologize and agreed to pay her a hundred and thirty
Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars. So, yeah, they didn't properly investigate it.
Speaker 1: They withheld information that frankly, she should have been informed of,
Speaker 1: and they just like didn't take it seriously. And when
Speaker 1: online threats of an online abuse are not take and
Speaker 1: seriously by people with power, dangerous things can happen. It
Speaker 1: can get really really scary. And honestly, like I am
Speaker 1: grateful that she it didn't it didn't come to like
Speaker 1: actual physical violence that that that like, you know, it
Speaker 1: didn't wind up like that, but it's so easily could have.
Speaker 1: M oh obviously, And it's like and I mean essentially
Speaker 1: she was paid to kind of go away, you know,
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, there's a settlement. I would argue it's
Speaker 1: very low, but it's just like, well, that's the cost
Speaker 1: of doing business and attempting to be a black woman
Speaker 1: in the state legislature like or in leadership by like anyway, sorry,
Speaker 1: it's um and and I think it's also interesting because
Speaker 1: you see, again there's like most it's a white people problem.
Speaker 1: Like I'm reminded of W. Kmal Bells, like you know,
Speaker 1: come get your boy when it comes to Trump. And
Speaker 1: it's in terms of what happened to Kia, it's like
Speaker 1: it's not a Kia problem, it's everybody else problem. And
Speaker 1: you see, like you know, some of the white you know,
Speaker 1: officials or police officers, folks around, and I think it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you guys are the ones who have a
Speaker 1: lot of work to do. It's a you you all problem.
Speaker 1: It's it's not a key of problem. So how is
Speaker 1: this systemic? And um and yeah, and also when are
Speaker 1: we going to get to the idea that once everyone
Speaker 1: is liberated, once there is equality, that will mean or
Speaker 1: once the most marginalized are liberated, I mean liberty and
Speaker 1: equality and freedom for everybody. Sorry, I've got to practice
Speaker 1: that part before I run for president. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I would vote for you tomorrow. Thank thanks, thanks, hell. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So these stories are obviously heartbreaking, but I also think
Speaker 1: they show the true cost of to all of us
Speaker 1: of what happens when things like online harassment and abuse
Speaker 1: just go unchecked. And we know this, this kind of
Speaker 1: harassment keeps marginalized people from running for office. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm sad to say that. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people we'll hear about the experiences of women like this
Speaker 1: and they'll be like, oh, well, that's just the cost
Speaker 1: of being a public figure to deal with it. But
Speaker 1: we deserve a political landscape where like this is not
Speaker 1: just the cost of wanting the sort of your community,
Speaker 1: especially but not cost is so much higher for the
Speaker 1: most marginalized among us. Absolutely, I mean I think that
Speaker 1: I think with the latest mid terms of the fact
Speaker 1: that like young people came out in droves and that
Speaker 1: you had, you know, the squad growing with a lot
Speaker 1: of young folks and specifically young people of color, we
Speaker 1: will stop normalizing this kind of crap and because there
Speaker 1: will be just more of it, because there will be
Speaker 1: more women in office, there will be more people of
Speaker 1: color in office, which is a good thing, but then
Speaker 1: this is the crap that comes along with it, and
Speaker 1: so it's like not to mention the fact that younger
Speaker 1: generations are god, I mean, from middle school dealing with
Speaker 1: online harassment from peers from Rando's like it's just gone,
Speaker 1: or the days of random A o L chats and
Speaker 1: me logging in being like I am blonde, sexy lady. Hello.
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about how I was on the internet
Speaker 1: as a kid. That's how I was too. I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's how I was to write right, and you're like
Speaker 1: now it's like, oh no, there's consequences and everyone's using
Speaker 1: their real name and like people are stalking you and
Speaker 1: what what um not that that wasn't happening then. But
Speaker 1: so I feel like, especially since young folks are also
Speaker 1: more Internet savvy and online harassment savvy and experience it,
Speaker 1: we will arrive at a point, Bridget, and you will
Speaker 1: be vindicated and all of your work in this show
Speaker 1: and everything that you've been sounding the alarm on, I
Speaker 1: know we will be vindicated. But it's just gonna take
Speaker 1: a while. It's gonna give us like a decade, which
Speaker 1: is too long, but I feel like we will arrive
Speaker 1: in another point where this ship is just not as normalized. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I actually agree with you. I think that, like you know,
Speaker 1: we've seen historic numbers of young folks, women, people of
Speaker 1: color running for office in this last cycle, and I
Speaker 1: just think that we are different. I don't I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think that we're going to tolerate this. And
Speaker 1: I think that we are going to hold people with power,
Speaker 1: whether it's legislators or policymakers or tech leaders, We're going
Speaker 1: to force them to, you know, do what they can
Speaker 1: to to create a situation where this isn't the norm,
Speaker 1: because this is not this is not a functional democracy,
Speaker 1: This is not a healthy democracy when this is how
Speaker 1: the political landscape and the media landscape that people are
Speaker 1: trying to compete it. It's just not healthy. It's not
Speaker 1: a functional democracy. And I think young people are are
Speaker 1: are smart enough to see that totally. And as and
Speaker 1: and our Senate and our Congress are old. You guys
Speaker 1: remember you remember when Zuckerberg testified, uh like a few
Speaker 1: years ago, and it's like you got senators being like
Speaker 1: a Mr Zuckerberg, what is the fire stand for? In
Speaker 1: why five? Because I think why is wireless? Well what
Speaker 1: is the five? You know? Just like like Mrs jul
Speaker 1: what is my password to my Amazon account? Like the
Speaker 1: most luddite as Senate? Right, And that's gonna change. And
Speaker 1: I think when that change, as we slowly change it, yes,
Speaker 1: we will hopefully have more protections. Yeah, it's so frustrating
Speaker 1: to watch those hearings where it's like the people who
Speaker 1: are in charge of making our policies around technology, like
Speaker 1: I forget who what lawmaker? It was? What was like
Speaker 1: will you commit to ending sense to and are you talking?
Speaker 1: Like what are you saying? Sir? Like what are you saying?
Speaker 1: And these are the people like I mean it. And
Speaker 1: I also it also starts with getting like more young
Speaker 1: people in office because like we just I mean, I
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, and surrounding them too, you know,
Speaker 1: likely supporting, like getting aide, you know, asked the staffers.
Speaker 1: Ten per cent of Senate is made up of men
Speaker 1: named John. That's like a real thing, like spelled to
Speaker 1: different ways, but end percent of Senate or John, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is a solid name when you're born in nineteen
Speaker 1: twenty nine. Yeah, when you're a white guy who watched
Speaker 1: the moon landing, Yeah, that's and so you know, when
Speaker 1: it comes to these kinds of attacks and arrestments that
Speaker 1: we're seeing, something I think is really interesting in telling
Speaker 1: is that it seems like the goal of these attacks
Speaker 1: is too really destroy marginalized candidates they're resolved, and to
Speaker 1: get them to internalize this abuse that is directed at them.
Speaker 1: This is from the folks who did the study um
Speaker 1: at the Center for Democracy and Technology that they wanted
Speaker 1: that these candidates felt very strong with that that the
Speaker 1: point of this kind of harassment was to just get
Speaker 1: them to internalize and accept the oppression that they face
Speaker 1: as women and women of color and just drop out
Speaker 1: of politics. And so you see that that has an
Speaker 1: incredibly like silencing effect, you know, and unfortunately in the
Speaker 1: research bears this out that these kinds of threats do
Speaker 1: keep women from running for office or just sort of
Speaker 1: engaging in public life in general or civic life, because
Speaker 1: they're smart enough to see the way that other women
Speaker 1: are treated. They see the way that law enforcement and
Speaker 1: media really do nothing or make it worse, and they're like,
Speaker 1: no fucking thanks, I don't want to deal with it,
Speaker 1: you know. Just this afternoon, Nancy Pelosi announced that she's
Speaker 1: ending her career in politics on the heels of that
Speaker 1: horrific hammer attack against her husband, who not only was
Speaker 1: attacked after being attacked, elected officials on like political figures
Speaker 1: like and Elon Musk spread homophobic conspiracy theories about the attack,
Speaker 1: joked about it, and part of me, it's like, I
Speaker 1: can understand why she's just like, I'm out. You know,
Speaker 1: when a woman runs for office or is a public
Speaker 1: figure and she is attacked, it is never just her.
Speaker 1: It is her partner, It is her kids, and here's
Speaker 1: her parents, it is her community. And I can understand
Speaker 1: why women are just like, you know, the cost is
Speaker 1: just too high. I don't I don't want to put
Speaker 1: myself or my family at risk to run for public office.
Speaker 1: And so I'm not gonna do it or I'm gonna
Speaker 1: check out of it. I can understand that. And so
Speaker 1: I think if women can't run for public office safely,
Speaker 1: then we will never have a truly representative democracy or
Speaker 1: a functional democracy in general. You know, the author of
Speaker 1: that report said, a lack of representation means that we
Speaker 1: lose the important insights and solutions to public policy problems
Speaker 1: that women of color will bring. We will all suffer.
Speaker 1: We all suffer if everyone does not have a seat
Speaker 1: at the table. And I could not agree more like,
Speaker 1: it is not just about the women who are attacked
Speaker 1: and targeted. All of us lose out when we don't
Speaker 1: even have a shot at a at a landscape where
Speaker 1: people can safely serve their public through running for office. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm not the biggest fan of Pelosi,
Speaker 1: but I do respect the hell out of her, and
Speaker 1: what I will say, with people like her and also
Speaker 1: people like Clinton, I wish they would do what Monica
Speaker 1: Lewinski has done. Um, and I think that's part and
Speaker 1: partial effect of Monica Lewinski is a little younger, but
Speaker 1: like taking her the public um, the scrutiny, the harassment,
Speaker 1: what she was put through and use sing it to
Speaker 1: actually try and change the culture. And I think that
Speaker 1: Hillary and Nancy Pelosi come from more of a generation
Speaker 1: that's like you gotta like go you know, basically shut
Speaker 1: up and get along and like um like whatever it is,
Speaker 1: like get along to go along. I'm really terrible with
Speaker 1: any kind of idioms today, but you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like we we right and so and it's like it's like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think we're done with that. And
Speaker 1: I think that young women and all people are done
Speaker 1: with the like no, you have to shut up in
Speaker 1: order to appease these systems and halls of power. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: you don't. And and so I hope that Nancy Pelosi
Speaker 1: in her because she's not gonna rest. This one is
Speaker 1: never gonna rest until she's dead. Like she's gonna keep
Speaker 1: on working. And I hope she uses you know, um,
Speaker 1: her time to try and not cut the ladder from
Speaker 1: out underneath her, but help young women also accelerate and
Speaker 1: succeed in politics as well. She hasn't got a great
Speaker 1: track record with that, gonna be real. She jumped on
Speaker 1: a little bit of the anti squad, anti il Han Omar,
Speaker 1: you know, calling elhan Omar anti semitic when she totally
Speaker 1: was not being anti Semitic. So, Nancy, you know, I
Speaker 1: hope you do better. Thank you for your service. I
Speaker 1: agree with you. Like Monica Lewinsky, it is she's She's
Speaker 1: my White Whale podcast guest because I think the way
Speaker 1: that she has turned something that was like meant to
Speaker 1: silence her and belittle her, she turned it into a
Speaker 1: platform and she really changed the conversation about online shaming
Speaker 1: and online harassment and online bullying. And I respect the
Speaker 1: hell out of it. Monica, if you're listening, please call me.
Speaker 1: You're my White Whale guest. She did that that Ted
Speaker 1: talk about the price of shame, that's right, and she
Speaker 1: she has a really good duck. She's in a really
Speaker 1: good documentary called fifteen Minutes of Shame on HBO Max,
Speaker 1: which everyone should watch, all about online shaming. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. I hope that this becomes a kind of
Speaker 1: situation where women are not expected to suffer in silence
Speaker 1: and and have a kind of like poised face because
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't serve anybody. And it's funny because
Speaker 1: in an interview I listened to with Kia. She was asked,
Speaker 1: she said that she said that so many people were like,
Speaker 1: you should just ignore this. You don't, You shouldn't stoop
Speaker 1: to their level. You should just ignore it. And I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that she didn't ignore it, because it started
Speaker 1: a conversation about what is and it's not acceptable in discourse.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you ignore it, it just festers
Speaker 1: and gets more empowered. And so the advice of just
Speaker 1: saying like, oh, rise above, you know, go high, don't
Speaker 1: go low and ignore it. You're too good to respond,
Speaker 1: I don't think that advice is really serving anybody, particularly
Speaker 1: if you're marginalized or you're like a young person who's
Speaker 1: coming up on this like online next generation. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And I think it's why a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are harassed incessantly often post um those d m s
Speaker 1: or that harassment um or the you know, air the
Speaker 1: voicemails that you know, people like Ao serial Han nomar
Speaker 1: get Um or Primelagia Paul, who I believe was threatened
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, more folks need
Speaker 1: to understand this is a daily occurrence before we actually
Speaker 1: like take it seriously. Um and whether or not PEP
Speaker 1: Baila Maximish understands it. I mean, he's not getting paid
Speaker 1: by anybody, but he's absolutely part and parcel of this
Speaker 1: system designed to like, yeah, keep women and people of
Speaker 1: color out of any kind of decision making process over
Speaker 1: their lives exactly. And I'm so glad that you put
Speaker 1: it that way, because this was my my whole intention
Speaker 1: behind this podcast is that it's so easy to think
Speaker 1: that when someone is being targeted in this way, it's individual,
Speaker 1: and certainly it has individual impacts, of course, but it's
Speaker 1: also institutional. It's also systems. It's also you know, power
Speaker 1: structures that enable it or you know, amplify it or
Speaker 1: profit off of it. Right, it's and so we need
Speaker 1: to start picking apart and calling out all of the
Speaker 1: systems that make this kind of harassment a viable thing
Speaker 1: for people to do, and break those systems and say
Speaker 1: we're not going to tolerate this. If you want to
Speaker 1: engage in this kind of discourse, we're not going to
Speaker 1: amplify it, we're not going to incentivize that. You're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to build a platform off of it,
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be effective. You're gonna pay
Speaker 1: two dollars for that d M. Yes, honestly I would
Speaker 1: accept some like harassing d ms if I got two
Speaker 1: hundred dollars every time. Okay, yeah, you gotta give me
Speaker 1: five bucks, but yeah, say whatever you want need to
Speaker 1: say to me, s j W cool what um catching Exactly,
Speaker 1: it's like a cameo but for hate. Yes you need
Speaker 1: to you need to like pitch this to some venture capitalists, Bran.
Speaker 1: But that's the whole thing that the irony is exactly
Speaker 1: what you're saying, which is these platforms already pay for
Speaker 1: they get that stuff for free. They're the ones making
Speaker 1: money off of the hate. It's going into their pocket.
Speaker 1: And it's like I would say, I mean, like I
Speaker 1: would argue that marginalized people, we are absorbing the hate
Speaker 1: to make tech leaders more money and externality of capitalism.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. What if Google was like, listen, Bridget,
Speaker 1: if you get trolled, I'll give you two hundred dollars
Speaker 1: every time, like every like hateful tweet that I might,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, that's that that would be a good solution.
Speaker 1: It would certullly incentivize them to you know, fix the problem,
Speaker 1: which is all we're asking for. And I guess this
Speaker 1: is my like overall point. You know, we especially in
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, we love our slogans like support black women, Yes,
Speaker 1: trust black women, like I have a Trust black Women shirt,
Speaker 1: and I am all on board for like championing the
Speaker 1: leadership with black women. But we can't just say, you know,
Speaker 1: support black women without also being honest about the unfair, racist,
Speaker 1: sexist attacks and harassment that they will they will probably
Speaker 1: face when they get into these leadership roles that we
Speaker 1: like are vocally supporting them for. And so we need
Speaker 1: to be creating the conditions that those women that we
Speaker 1: love to champion also have a chance at an equal
Speaker 1: playing field, that we're not just setting them up to
Speaker 1: be knocked down, to have to like you know, abandoned
Speaker 1: their office and leave town because of harassment and threats
Speaker 1: and garbage. Amen. And we didn't even talk about Castangi
Speaker 1: Brown Jackson, but my mind went to her as well. Yes,
Speaker 1: coming coming soon, coming, so great, example, coming awesome. That
Speaker 1: is all I have from There is like no one
Speaker 1: else that I would rather have dug into all this
Speaker 1: with than you. And I appreciate you taking the time
Speaker 1: after you've, you know, had so much going on so
Speaker 1: much going on babies. Probably it's been two hours time
Speaker 1: to feed yet again, I'm gonna go soak my aching nipples. Guys,
Speaker 1: that's am I deal with it. We need to support
Speaker 1: women much more. Um but yeah, Bridget, this has been
Speaker 1: awesome and um, I mean awful. But also like people
Speaker 1: like you're like, oh, yeah, there's hope, there is hope.
Speaker 1: You make me feel very hopeful. And where can folks
Speaker 1: follow you and what you're up to? Yeah, dude, follow
Speaker 1: me on all things at Franny fo f R A
Speaker 1: n I f I oh and then the Bituation Room
Speaker 1: as a podcast. It's also a live stream every Tuesday
Speaker 1: one pm Pacific four pm Eastern on YouTube and twitchy. Internet.
Speaker 1: Hate Machine is a production of cool Zone Media. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, check out our website
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or find us on the
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Speaker 1: your podcasts.