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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. So

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Speaker 1: this is the final installment of our two part episode

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Speaker 1: with Francesca Fiorentini, where we look at the ways that

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Speaker 1: harassment online keeps women, particularly women of color and black women,

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Speaker 1: from being able to run for and hold public office

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Speaker 1: safely and how it impacts our democracy more broadly. So

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Speaker 1: in our last episode, we talked about some national leaders

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Speaker 1: like Kamala Harris, and in this episode were going in

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Speaker 1: to look at some specific women in local public offices

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Speaker 1: and the harassment and abuse that they faced just for

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Speaker 1: trying to do their jobs. So, you know, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Harris. But I want to make it clear that

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Speaker 1: when it comes to women who are running for public office,

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Speaker 1: it is not always like flashy candidates with well funded

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Speaker 1: campaigns who are like running for a presidential administration. We're

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Speaker 1: often talking about women running for like local offices like

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Speaker 1: school boards in their community or county commissioners. So I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about a few examples of what I mean.

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Speaker 1: The first is Tammy Sawyer. Will actually hopefully hear from

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Speaker 1: Tammy Sawyer in her own words later in the seas

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Speaker 1: and but I want to talk about her time as

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Speaker 1: an elected official in Memphis, Inde. So Jammy Sawyer got

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Speaker 1: her start in activism. She felt called the public service

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Speaker 1: watching the acquittal of George Zimmerman during the murder of

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Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin and the grand jury decision not to try

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Speaker 1: Darren Wilson to the death of Mike Brown. She became

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Speaker 1: a pretty like visible figure in the movement for Black Lives.

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Speaker 1: In she organized a visual in honor of Tamir Rice

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Speaker 1: at the Health Sciences Park in Memphis. If you've ever

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Speaker 1: been there in the last few years, you know that

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Speaker 1: it had a statue of Confederate general and klu Klux

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Speaker 1: Klan Grand Wizard Nathan Bedford Forrest, the namesake for the

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Speaker 1: movie Forrest Gump. Fun fact. In twenty seventeen, Tammy Sawyer

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Speaker 1: organized the hashtag take him Down nine oh one movement,

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Speaker 1: which led to the statute being removed. In eighteen of August,

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Speaker 1: she was elected to Shelby County Commissioner for District seven

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Speaker 1: in Memphis. So she was just like visible figure in

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Speaker 1: the movement for Black Lives. But that thing that elevated

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Speaker 1: her to the public stage also made her a huge

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Speaker 1: get for white supremacists. Things came to a head in

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Speaker 1: June when she was doing a press conference at this

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Speaker 1: park during the actual removal of the monument. So there's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of like weird backstory through this like

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Speaker 1: very weird compromise. The group Sons of Confederate Veterans were

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Speaker 1: responsible for hiring and overseeing the construction project to remove

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Speaker 1: this Confederate statue. It sounds like they never wanted the

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Speaker 1: statue to be removed in the first place, and the

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Speaker 1: team that they put together and hired to remove it

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Speaker 1: it seemed to reflect that right this team that they

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Speaker 1: had was obviously not thrilled that these statues were coming down,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. Yeah, that's an interesting contractor Like yeah,

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Speaker 1: like Sons of the Confederate Veterans like a Confederate statue enthusiasts,

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't fully get it. No, is there

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Speaker 1: no one else who can take down the statues. It's

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Speaker 1: just the same people who put them up are also

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Speaker 1: the people who take them down. That's the that's the compromise.

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Speaker 1: It has to be fair. So the crew hired to

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Speaker 1: take down these monuments, they ended up putting Confederate flags

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Speaker 1: all over the job site. Uh, it sounds like they

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Speaker 1: intentionally covered this like Black Lives Matter mural with bricks

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Speaker 1: while working just like petty ship, right, just like petty

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Speaker 1: stunt ship. That's that's how they were doing this. For

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, I don't fully get like why or how

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Speaker 1: this happened, but petty stunt shit. So a member of

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Speaker 1: that crew hired to remove the monument, as a man

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Speaker 1: named George k Rath Johnson, who is the founding member

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Speaker 1: of a group called Confederate nine oh one, who has

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Speaker 1: a history of like showing up in places where Confederate

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Speaker 1: monuments are being taken down. They were the group if

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Speaker 1: you remember, like the group that was protesting a Confederate

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Speaker 1: monument being taken down an Ole, miss That was them.

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Speaker 1: I found this very interesting. A piece in the Clarion

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Speaker 1: Ledger says that the group is mostly white, shocker, but

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Speaker 1: they do have a black member who led one of

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Speaker 1: their marches in Memphis, so like yea for inclusion. Something

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Speaker 1: else to know about this guy is that, in addition

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Speaker 1: to you being a founding member of this Confederate group,

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Speaker 1: he loves Facebook Live. And here's what he had to

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Speaker 1: say about his own presence in Pittsburgh, North Carolina on

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Speaker 1: Facebook Live today. I was like, I want to go

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Speaker 1: to Chapel Hill, I want to go to Pittsburgh. I

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Speaker 1: want to go over to where they've already removed the monuments,

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Speaker 1: you know. And honestly, yeah, I was looking to start

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Speaker 1: the pot, but hey, they've been stirring the pot for

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Speaker 1: a long damn time, and I'm about ready to make

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Speaker 1: my own Batchel stew you know, all right, So that's him.

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Speaker 1: You want to eat people. That's literally what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: What that was? That was my inderstitting as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a very weird growth analogy, and I don't like

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Speaker 1: it at all. And so this is this is the

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Speaker 1: person who is hired to be part of the construction

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Speaker 1: crew to take down this monument, but to do it

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Speaker 1: in the stuntiest way possible in Memphis, where Tammy Sawyer

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Speaker 1: has like led this campaign to remove his monuments, And

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Speaker 1: while Tammy is trying to hold a press conference at

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Speaker 1: this park, Johnson stands behind her, marching back and forth

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Speaker 1: holding a Confederate flagged. He uses racist insults toward her.

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Speaker 1: He sings the Confederate anthem Dixie as he's trying to

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Speaker 1: speak God. Here's a little clip of what it sounded

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Speaker 1: like outside the Health and Sciences Park in Memphis that day.

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Speaker 1: So when they put all of this on social media,

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Speaker 1: they continued to threat a life. When they continue to

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Speaker 1: do all this, say they're going to be if you

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Speaker 1: have it on proper, and they waved their racist confederates

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Speaker 1: to move behind. Remember, okay, okay, wrong here to give

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Speaker 1: you all the statement and say that this is a

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Speaker 1: powerful moment. I was going to connect. I was going

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Speaker 1: to connect it to Memphis Massenger. You know who else

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Speaker 1: a communist they caught Martini became a communist. They called

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Speaker 1: your James a communist when you're a armist. They called

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Speaker 1: the Black Panthers communist. James Baldwin was called a connu.

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Speaker 1: James Walding Johnson was called a commun Muhammad Ali was

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Speaker 1: called a time era Comglas. Make sure you get a

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Speaker 1: picture of the man who just ranted my life, the

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Speaker 1: man who just said he was gonna lay hands on it,

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Speaker 1: and then make sure you go down there when they're body.

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Speaker 1: I remember that I do this by myself. No one,

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Speaker 1: No one comes with me. Oh no, no security power.

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Speaker 1: That's what these people are. Their power. So he said

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be by hans Am right high behind the blind,

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Speaker 1: he was a man. I'm I'm I'm more a man

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Speaker 1: and you are, Yes, Tammy, Yes, Tammy. Remember that Audrey

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Speaker 1: Lord once said they will kill you and say you like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let him kill me, but if he does,

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Speaker 1: you know who to go. Fine, right, y'all know where

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Speaker 1: to start. So that's really where things kind of come

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Speaker 1: to a head. And honestly, it's hard to watch that

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Speaker 1: because I really feel for Tammy in that video. You know,

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Speaker 1: she's just trying to do her job. She obviously has

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Speaker 1: to respond in this moment with like grace because it's

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Speaker 1: happening in public, and you don't want to give these

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Speaker 1: people any fodder to be like, oh, she deserved it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can't you can't really respond the way

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Speaker 1: that you might want to because of all the negative

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Speaker 1: stereotypes that women deal with that we talked about earlier.

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Speaker 1: And Yeah, I just I really feel for her, Like

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's palpable to see that, and she's

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Speaker 1: dealing with this alone and and like Tammy. Tammy was

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Speaker 1: actually on my podcast The Situation Room a while ago

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Speaker 1: before this, and she's the most lovely person, Like she's

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Speaker 1: so wonderful and and just like warm and thoughtful and

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Speaker 1: fearce and you can and clearly it comes across. But

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Speaker 1: it is just funny that, like, yeah, the Confederacy has

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Speaker 1: been reduced to a sad man on a random Tuesday

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Speaker 1: with nothing to do with a tiny little flag and

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Speaker 1: his little you know, his air pods, listening to whatever

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Speaker 1: the funk he's listening to, waving his flag behind a

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Speaker 1: woman in a friend doing a press conference, like Robert E.

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Speaker 1: Lee would be so proud of you, sir, oh God,

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Speaker 1: like keep the keep the flame alive, you idiot, Like

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Speaker 1: you want to lose again the fun You fucking lost

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Speaker 1: the Civil War, bitch, Like I'm sorry, I'm just like

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Speaker 1: you can't get over the fact that you goddamn lost

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Speaker 1: and you want a stupid monument to your loser ass,

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Speaker 1: you know, civil War hero. Shut the funk up. Fun fact,

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Speaker 1: the show The Golden Girls lasted longer than the Confederacy,

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Speaker 1: So maybe we should have monuments to Yes, we should.

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Speaker 1: Sophia deserves her own monument. I, as an Italian woman,

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Speaker 1: believe Sophia is our our our queen. Um No, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is It's just so sad it is. And so

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Speaker 1: after this interaction, Sawyer filed charges against him and said that,

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Speaker 1: you know, he threatened her. During the investigation, it is

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Speaker 1: revealed that that same man, after she filed those charges,

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Speaker 1: went on Facebook Live and read her address out loud.

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Speaker 1: Here's a little bit about how she explains what went

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Speaker 1: down after the incident we just heard because he went

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Speaker 1: on Facebook Live with a friend and offered out my

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Speaker 1: address and actually emailed out my address to people telling

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Speaker 1: them to send me cotton and other gifts and uh,

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Speaker 1: show me who was in charge in this country. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you know threatening that after January, after court that

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Speaker 1: mythis and me we're going to face a reckoning because

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Speaker 1: of those actions that came to light this weekend. The

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Speaker 1: judge was forced to allow the case to continue. But

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Speaker 1: the judges also from Dyer County, UM, and he did

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Speaker 1: not want the case to continue. And he lectured Mr

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Speaker 1: Johnson and told him you have a great lawyer. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, why did you open your mouth? You know,

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Speaker 1: don't ruin a good thing, he told him, Son, don't

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Speaker 1: ruin a good thing. And so I already see what

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Speaker 1: this is going. Wow, that is incredible that that was

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Speaker 1: what was discussed and so so what just nothing left

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Speaker 1: for you here? I was in court, and when I

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Speaker 1: attempted to speak, the judge told me that I don't

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Speaker 1: address him. I could talk to the d A. This

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Speaker 1: is the same d A that never called me, interviewed me,

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Speaker 1: and actually today when the case was continue to be

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Speaker 1: set for trial in March, uh said, I'll now have

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Speaker 1: to look at this case. I have to be honest.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't looked at it because I just knew it

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Speaker 1: was going to be dismissed. So this is a six

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Speaker 1: month old situation that went viral, that was covered on

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Speaker 1: your show and many others. Um, and the d as

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Speaker 1: telling me he's never looked at the bio and now

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Speaker 1: he's going to have to look at it. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: still emotion to dismiss from the defense that will be

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Speaker 1: heard on March thirty. Yeah, you can sort of get

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Speaker 1: a sense that, like, it doesn't sound like anybody whose

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Speaker 1: job it is to give a ship gives a ship.

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Speaker 1: She's an elected official. I believe she's still currently the

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Speaker 1: commissioner Shelby County Commissioner. No, she was at that point,

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Speaker 1: but no longer. She's not like today. But yeah, so

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Speaker 1: she at that point, she was still lots of official

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Speaker 1: and this is how they were treating uh pretty clear,

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Speaker 1: like like problem, you know, it's okay. Also, keep in

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Speaker 1: mind she was a county commissioner, right, It's not like

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Speaker 1: she had a well funded security detail or like endless

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Speaker 1: funds to dedicate to the kinds of like security that

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Speaker 1: someone would need in a situation like this, you know,

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Speaker 1: after this man made a show of having her address

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Speaker 1: and a clear intent to cause her harm. But so

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Speaker 1: Tammy had to fundraise for her own security. I should say,

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Speaker 1: full disclosure, I do work for an organization that did

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Speaker 1: help her fundraise for her security details, So like I

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Speaker 1: should add that, But it only makes us like you

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Speaker 1: more bridges good. I don't want someone to like find

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Speaker 1: that and be like, wait a minute, conflict of interest.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I loved Tammy and I admire her

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Speaker 1: work so much, and like, you know, it is what

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Speaker 1: it is, like, I like, I can't believe you would

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Speaker 1: cover this story. I mean, I thought you had integrity.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, we we saw what happened, and

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Speaker 1: it just it felt like nobody had her back, right,

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Speaker 1: Like she shouldn't have to. It shouldn't be this this

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Speaker 1: barrier and this cost that just she alone has to shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Isn't my county commissioners this like lucrative, cushy thing, Like

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Speaker 1: she shouldn't have to just like shell out to have

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Speaker 1: to have security because some Confederate maniac has a B

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Speaker 1: in its bonnet, like I thought it was acceptable. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And it's indicative of the fact that most people who

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Speaker 1: run for elected office and who get elected are themselves wealthy,

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Speaker 1: and they're usually white dudes, um, and they have generational wealth,

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Speaker 1: they're or they're independently wealthy, whatever the case may be,

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Speaker 1: and they can afford a security detail. But again, as

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Speaker 1: you've discussed and laid out, mostly when you are a

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Speaker 1: white man in office, you do not face those kinds

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Speaker 1: of threats the way women and women of color do.

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Speaker 1: And it goes from I mean from tammy to AOC

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Speaker 1: on you know, on a federal level, I guess, or

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Speaker 1: in in Congress, you know, AOC saying we need security

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Speaker 1: and this is after January six, right, this is like

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Speaker 1: we need better security in and around the capital, and

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Speaker 1: it seems like that's only reserved for people who um

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Speaker 1: like the speaker or um who people who just privately

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Speaker 1: funded themselves and who's got the money for that? I

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Speaker 1: mean this is ostensibly these should be public servants, and

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Speaker 1: this is the mint that they're just the least we

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Speaker 1: could do for them, exactly. And if we're saying we

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Speaker 1: want to have a representative democracy where lots of different

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Speaker 1: folks from lots of different backgrounds can be public servants,

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Speaker 1: that should include people who I'm sorry can't afford a

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Speaker 1: private security details. Shouldn't this be for wealthy people? And

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Speaker 1: I feel like we are creating a situation where the

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Speaker 1: only people who can reasonably and safely hold public office

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Speaker 1: are people who have independent wealth to pay the astronomical

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Speaker 1: costs that are involved with security and online and offline security.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's a real problem. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I should say, like with the Tammy Sawyer situation, the

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Speaker 1: charges were eventually dropped against the person who was harassing her,

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Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like Tammy felt like this case

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Speaker 1: was not handled seriously. She talks about how the judge

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Speaker 1: was like really paling it up with with the with

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Speaker 1: the defendant who she says was harassing her. And when

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Speaker 1: the judge was like, oh, you know, why did that

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Speaker 1: don't go on Facebook live? It wasn't because he wanted

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Speaker 1: Tammy to feel safe. It was because he didn't want

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Speaker 1: that guy to make his case that much harder to

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Speaker 1: have him be dismissed. And so when when the charges

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Speaker 1: were dismissed, Tammy wrote on Facebook, she said, but even

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Speaker 1: though the judge called his actions pathetic, he could not

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Speaker 1: identify a reasonable level of fear on her part. And

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Speaker 1: so I would actually argue that that that that like weird.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's so funked up, and like I think

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Speaker 1: that weird vibe. That tightrope of like I have to

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Speaker 1: show public grace kind of creates this impossible situation where

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, you can handle it. Like you're

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Speaker 1: a black woman. It's just like part of showing up

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Speaker 1: and being a visible black woman. You're not afraid whatever, whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's part of it. It's an impossible

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Speaker 1: situation that we face. You're used to it, no it

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Speaker 1: Imagine if she had freaked out in that video, Imagine

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Speaker 1: if she'd gotten angry, right, it would have been used

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Speaker 1: against her. She homie would have that other dude, the

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Speaker 1: dude would have used it to file charges against her, right,

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Speaker 1: and you know that would have flown and he would

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Speaker 1: like he would have loved that. He was just waiting

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Speaker 1: for her to go off on him, and she didn't.

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Speaker 1: She had to keep her cool, um, which is asked

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Speaker 1: of marginalized people all the time, because when you raise

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Speaker 1: your voice somehow that is uh, that's a threat. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the other thing I was gonna say, and

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Speaker 1: this is a terrible comparison, but when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the justice system, it's just right there for the taking.

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Speaker 1: Like you know that rape victims are their cases are

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Speaker 1: not taken seriously often if they don't quote unquote fight back, right,

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Speaker 1: so and in this case, oh, she wasn't afraid. She

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Speaker 1: wasn't afraid because she didn't raise her voice, or she

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Speaker 1: didn't run. She wasn't physically running at the time. Um,

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Speaker 1: so therefore there was no fear. Like what are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? This is all about surviving And I just,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you bring up such a good point about

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Speaker 1: the ways that he really just failed survivors and made

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Speaker 1: and made survivors walk a really impossible tight rope in

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Speaker 1: public and it's just really fucked up. And yeah, it

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Speaker 1: makes me very sad. And today Timmy Sawyer is no

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Speaker 1: longer in public office. She is pursuing a PhD. And

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, Like she's still doing great things,

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Speaker 1: Like we will hear her. I am so sure we're

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Speaker 1: gonna hear her name again, Like just because she's no

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Speaker 1: longer in public office. I don't think this is like

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Speaker 1: the end of her band of her road by by

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Speaker 1: any margin. But I do think that we should acknowledge

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Speaker 1: this like added burden that she was forced to carry

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Speaker 1: because of her identity, you know, pursuving charges against somebody

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Speaker 1: who gave out her address and encourage people to harass her.

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Speaker 1: And it's like we rather than taking the time to

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Speaker 1: really reflect on that or acknowledge that, we just move on.

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Speaker 1: We were just like, oh yeah, like it just it

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Speaker 1: just feels like a footnote as opposed to something that

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Speaker 1: is a real marker of our democracy and and how

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Speaker 1: unwell our democratic system is right now. It's also it

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Speaker 1: reminds me of like she was working with Black Voters

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Speaker 1: Matter when I had her on, So she also done

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Speaker 1: incredible activism and and you're totally right, we'll continue to

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Speaker 1: do so. But it reminds me of like a women

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Speaker 1: in comedy, you know, where it's like a lot of

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Speaker 1: male bookers will be like, well, look, I would put

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Speaker 1: more women on my show. But like, they're not any

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Speaker 1: good women there. I don't know any female comics. It's

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Speaker 1: like number one, you're you're blind, and there are tons

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Speaker 1: of amazing women female comics. But also it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: look at the industry at large, like look at the

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Speaker 1: culture of comedy. In a lot of ways, we don't

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Speaker 1: have hr. There's not it's like a not a safe

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Speaker 1: space specifically for women and for women of color. The

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Speaker 1: comedy space just isn't, you know, right, Like and and

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Speaker 1: it's the same thing with elected office. It's just like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we love to have like some kind

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Speaker 1: of quota or have like more women in office, but

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Speaker 1: just they don't run. And and and I think Republicans

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Speaker 1: are so guilty of that too, you know, because it's

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Speaker 1: like they have what like three female senators. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's like the lowest in in internationally. I think the

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Speaker 1: US Congress is one of the least representative bodies when

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Speaker 1: it comes to gender and so and like and he's

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Speaker 1: just like, well, we we'd we'd support them if they

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Speaker 1: would run for office. No, they run for office, they

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Speaker 1: just get torn down. I mean, I'm also thinking of

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Speaker 1: someone like Katie Hill in California, like they get torn

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Speaker 1: the funk apart. So yeah, yeah, and it's funny that

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Speaker 1: you mean not funny. But what Katie Hill went through

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Speaker 1: was a sex crime. Like she was the victim of

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Speaker 1: a sex crime by a an ex romantic partner who

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Speaker 1: was like like harassing her. And yet it's like we

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Speaker 1: just allow we just have a really fucked up culture

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Speaker 1: when it comes to women. I guess I'll just say that,

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Speaker 1: like all I can really say. So I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about one more elected official and her experience in

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Speaker 1: public office, KEYA. Morris. She made history in twenty four

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Speaker 1: tenez Vermont's only black woman lawmaker. Her husband James, grew

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Speaker 1: up in Bennington, Vermont, and she went to college in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: but relocated back to Vermont to become a lawmaker. Her

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Speaker 1: career was very short lived because it was completely derailed

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Speaker 1: by online harassment and violent threats by self proclaimed white

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Speaker 1: nationalist Max Mish. Mish was kind of known as like

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Speaker 1: a violent his name is Max Mish, Max Mish, Dude,

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Speaker 1: white nationalists have the dumbest name. They really do match.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just like that is the stupid anyway. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: it's like Mickey mouse name. That's amazing, so stupid. So

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Speaker 1: he's kind of like, no, like a known violent asshole.

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Speaker 1: Side note, he looks exactly like whatever you're thinking that

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Speaker 1: he looks like. Based on the behavior I'm meant to describe,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you that you're right, whatever you're thinking. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's what he looks like. Very red faced, super red face.

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Speaker 1: You got it, you got it. So mission he planned

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Speaker 1: guilty to both first degree aggravated domestic assault and disorderly

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Speaker 1: conduct as a hate crime. So he has this like

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have a great like he's like a known

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Speaker 1: ship head, I guess. So he's been through a lot,

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Speaker 1: is what you're saying. Yeah, he's just a real victim,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so Kia when she supports a gun

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Speaker 1: safety bill, she starts to experience animosity from gun rights

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Speaker 1: advocates in Vermont because of her support of this legislation. Now,

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Speaker 1: many legislators and the governor were targeted with like angry

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Speaker 1: mail and messages over this this law. But the kind

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Speaker 1: of content that she gets is very different because she's

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Speaker 1: a black woman and the only black woman in the legislature.

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Speaker 1: So you know, she's not just getting like, oh, we

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Speaker 1: didn't like that you support this bill. She's getting frightening,

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Speaker 1: horrific racist messages, particularly from Max. Miss Max starts sending

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Speaker 1: her these like racist memes on Twitter and elsewhere about

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Speaker 1: her support for the bill. Kia says that she gets

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Speaker 1: an uptick in in the intensity of this kind of

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Speaker 1: harassment after a columnist for the white supremacist website The

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Speaker 1: Info Stormer posted about her reelection and starts tagging like

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Speaker 1: residents in it the Stormer. Sorry, I had to give

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Speaker 1: that a moment. I know, I feel like it's like

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Speaker 1: we stormed the truth. They're like putting a bunch of

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Speaker 1: words into like an AI generator or something, and it's

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Speaker 1: like Info Stormer, that's gonna be it, Like you mean

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Speaker 1: Daily Stormer. No, we're like a breakaway of the Daily

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Speaker 1: storm Er. Who even is that exactly? It's so ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: And so in a ten page report published by the

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Speaker 1: Vermont Attorney's General Attorney General's Office and outlines almost fifty

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Speaker 1: instances of threatening behavior where her or her family or

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Speaker 1: her neighbors called the police. And so first Vermont, you guys,

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because you think of Vermont is like

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Speaker 1: a progressive state, but you know, it's like this should happens.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not just Bernie building a fire endlessly

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Speaker 1: and and the and the coat factory or like wearing Mitten's. Exactly,

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Speaker 1: it's Vermont. It's more than Mitten's. It's actually the slug. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's what Max Mish wants. Like they

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Speaker 1: these guys must be so mad that Bernie like put

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Speaker 1: them on the map as like as a governor Vermont

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Speaker 1: as a Republican. Yeah, it's one of those states, right,

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Speaker 1: It's one of those sort of like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a Max miss state, you know, it's a state like

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Speaker 1: MAXI missology. They're governors. But I think it's his Phil

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Speaker 1: Scott and he's like this is like his fourth time.

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Speaker 1: And and it was the one issue that Sanders, like

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Speaker 1: Clinton was to the left of Sanders on because there's

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Speaker 1: so many guns enthusiasts in Vermont and SAMs was I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think now that's like, I mean, how many mass

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Speaker 1: shootings has there been since seen? Right? So even now

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Speaker 1: I don't think he can hold that line. But it's

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Speaker 1: been the sort of one gray area where he was

427
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 1: like had to appease the gun folks in his state. Yeah,

428
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: I get. I get. I mean, like honestly researching this episode,

429
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: I get it. I was like, oh, I don't think

430
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: I realized how fervent gun ideology is. Like I live

431
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: in d C, so like there's gun crimes here, but

432
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: like individuals don't have the same kind of um connection

433
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: to it. And when I was researching this episode, I

434
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, Like I forget how different it

435
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: is in different states that like it's a real issue, right,

436
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: It's it's they're they're all arming up for the imagined crime,

437
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: whereas like d C actually has a little bit of it. Yeah. Yeah,

438
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: So the kinds of messages that she's getting from MAXI

439
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: Mish are just racist garbage. You know, go back to Africa.

440
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: That's the only place that you'll be safe, that kind

441
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: of thing, Right, And so in August she files a

442
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: complaint the FBI where she says if this guy and

443
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: his associates are harassing her on Twitter, But as online

444
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: harassment often works, it doesn't just stay online. It bleeds

445
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,239
Speaker 1: from Twitter and Facebook into her offline life. On election Day,

446
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: she's doing in a campaign added a polling place and

447
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: she sees this guy Max. They're staring at her and

448
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: weirding her out. Then somebody breaks into her home. They

449
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: stole about a hundred of her husband's neckties and littered

450
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: them across a cemetery in her home. It's very weird.

451
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: It's like a very weird thing. So can you imagine

452
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: them getting together and be like, so, which what should

453
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: we do? You know, should we like should we put

454
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: like a horse in her bed like in you know, godfather, No,

455
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: I saw this one thing on like the Lifetime channel.

456
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: We're gonna do the neck ties, the necktie thing, Pete,

457
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if we should do the No, trust me,

458
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna do the necktie thing. It'll be it'll be crazy.

459
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: We just put a little necktie on every single gravestone.

460
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: It's such it's such a weird, specific like way to

461
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: funk with somebody. Yes, so bizarre. You know, it's like

462
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: a it's like a snowman but of but of headstones,

463
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: and you probably you know, we we're gonna get the

464
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: corn cob pipe and the carrot knows and then one

465
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: of their neckties. It will freak her out. I mean

466
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: I probably mission accomplished. Yeah, she was completely freaked out. Also,

467
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: her home was vandalized with paintballs, but then we're gonna

468
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: bake her a pie, so one hot piping apple pie. Yeah,

469
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: a lot of mixed signals from these answers. A house

470
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: nearby that has a ton of her Like campaign paraphernalia

471
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: on their windows gets a racist mail er shoved under

472
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: the door, and then her babysitter reports that a man

473
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: in a car outside of her home is recording their house.

474
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: So let's just like weird, like weird scary ship that

475
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: maybe does not like I kind of see whoever is

476
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: doing this. It kind of seems like they're trying to

477
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: operate on a level of like it's enough to freak

478
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: you out, but not enough to be like, you know,

479
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: the kind of crime that the police would take seriously.

480
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: Like I feel like they're they're really walking a line

481
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: of like it has to be scary, but not scary

482
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: enough that like somebody in power would take this seriously.

483
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: But that's sort of the the tricky thing with harassment generally, right,

484
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: and with like crimes, whether they be I mean, especially

485
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: sexual crimes. But like is that gray area and it's

486
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: the sort of you know, I know it's overused, but

487
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: that microaggression, but this is obviously much more than that,

488
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: like the micro the stocking, right, the harassing and harassment.

489
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: It's like, well, did he enter with a gun? Did he? Like? No, buddy,

490
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: there's a car outside. Uh someone's filming me. And it's

491
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: just like and of course, um cops not the most empathetic,

492
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: not the best at dealing with some of these. The

493
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: warning signs, which by the way, is really just hey,

494
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: do you have a history of DV Yeah, then you

495
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: should have someone tailing you at all times because likely

496
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: you're gonna do some other ship to somebody else, and

497
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't have a gun, and you definitely shouldn't

498
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: have a gun, like just some common sense like, yeah,

499
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: if you've been threatening your domestic partner, maybe let's not

500
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: get a gun in the mix, Like just you know.

501
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 1: Uh So the police, it sounds like, don't really do anything,

502
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: Like they don't she when when they when somebody breaks

503
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: into her house, they don't like take fingerprints or whatever.

504
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: She gets a restraining order against him, but it only

505
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: lasts for one year. After the restraining order expires, Max

506
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: Miss contacts her again on social media, writing on Twitter,

507
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: you will never silence me. Every time you attend a

508
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: political rally, at the Four Corners or another local venue,

509
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: and I'm aware of the event. I will troll the

510
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: hell out of you and other subversives there. Maybe I'll

511
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: bring a friend or three with me to stop pushing

512
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: social justice on your nearly entirely white constituency in Bennington, Vermont.

513
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: Go back to Chicago if you want to engage in

514
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: social justice warrior bullshit. We will continue to fight against

515
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: you and your efforts to make our town and state

516
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: look more like your mongrel son pretty fucked up, like

517
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: not good and so I understand why she was like

518
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: terrified and unnerved. But unfortunately the Attorney General declines to

519
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: press charges against this guy, explaining that in this case,

520
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: the online communications that were sent to Ms Morris by

521
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: Max Mish and others were clearly racist and offensive. However,

522
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: the First Amendment does not make speech sanctionable merely because

523
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: it is objectionable. The question here is whether the messages

524
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: and context were communicating a serious expression of intent to

525
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: harm Miss More's or her family. Yes, sorry, I don't

526
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: mean interrupt, Yes, yes yes. The fact that a number

527
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: of the messages were directed at her as in her

528
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: role as an elected official racist. The issue of whether

529
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: they were intended to express political opposition through the use

530
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: of hyperbole and insult, as known in the case above. Therefore,

531
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: there appears to be insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges

532
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: under Vermont law. Bullshit. I mean, that's such bullshit that

533
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: because that's that's basically like, well, it's open season, you know.

534
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: And here we are in a moment where it's like,

535
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: oh my god, someone protested outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home,

536
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: Like how dare you? You know? What? We really need

537
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: to beef up security on um white men in power,

538
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: like or the Supreme Court is just being targeted, Like no,

539
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: these are the stories that happen all the time on

540
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: a local level. People have been harassed for decades and

541
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 1: we don't hear it. Gabby Gifford Scott has to get

542
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: shot in the head and we still don't have security

543
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: details for elected officials. I mean, it's just how many

544
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: more instances do you need? And it was so perfect.

545
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, we we know who we choose to protect.

546
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: We know when people raise the alarm. It's when fucking

547
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: Ted Cruise gets strolled a Yankees game. And then it's like,

548
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: oh my god, yeah, and it creates this like really

549
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: obviously false, frustrating both sides narrative of like, oh, they

550
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: both sides do it, and it's like, wow, someone writing

551
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 1: in chalk outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home is different than

552
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: like breaking in the Nancy Pelosi's home and hitting her

553
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: husband on the head with a hammer. It's like those

554
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: are not analga, so like, let's not pretend that they are. Like,

555
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: I hate this vibe of like I think that political

556
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: violence and threats against elected officials as like a should

557
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: be a nonpartisan issue, but I hate this on this

558
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: vibe that like we have to be completely disingenuous about

559
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: which side is doing it in a way that it's

560
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: like much more fucking scary. Yes, so case closed. They're

561
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: not going to present charges against this guy. There's a

562
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: press conference where the d A is announcing that he

563
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: does not intend to press charges against Max Miish. After

564
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: the d A speaks about freedom of speech, Kia gets

565
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: up to the podium to speak and guests who comes

566
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: in Max Mish. He's wearing a Peppe the Frog shirt

567
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: and you can hear everyone's reaction when he enters here. No, no, no,

568
00:31:54,160 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: a lot everybody. You don't have to put upstation new

569
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: We're here at one side. I went to say something

570
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: to please, so I'm happy to take other questions other

571
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: than that federal ways violent colds. I don't believe so meeting.

572
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: This is not that that I'm going to conclude the

573
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: press conference unless there are other questions. I like to say,

574
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: this is not as a political opponent was accused of

575
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: being your Nazi. Myself, I think we're here on one

576
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: side of the story. Oh my god, this is failed

577
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: wall maker. Kevin hoyt ys politics, and I was called

578
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: the Nazi. I was called the white supremacie. Probably are

579
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: my guy. Obviously racism exists, and from my steak, it's like, hey, right,

580
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: it's crazy. We don't want these things. Whether we're part

581
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: of our fabric of society, I question to one degree,

582
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: though I call bullshit. I'm miss Morris. I think, okay,

583
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: so you kind of get the idea. Kevin hoyte Is

584
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: is like we folks are in just he's he's his

585
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: own like weird guy who folks. You can look at

586
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: him up if you're interested, But it's so so funny

587
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: that he's like I was also unfairly called a Nazi,

588
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: and I think we should let him speak. It is

589
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: just wild, right, like complete pandemonium. Onlookers use their jackets

590
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: to try to block mish Um. It's this big dramatic scene,

591
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: but not to Max mish to him, and it's all

592
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: a big joke. He told the Free Press, I am

593
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: a troll. I like it. I like this, like it's

594
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: just funny into him And so I would have to

595
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: play a little clip of him responding to the Free

596
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: Press because I can, Yes, you can. Absolutely. I didn't

597
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: explain why you do that, but that's why we were

598
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: holding up our coats so that people of color don't

599
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: have to see that hate. And we're surrounding you and

600
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: we don't like it. It's it's vile. Yes, you have

601
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: the right to put the shirt on, but I have

602
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: the right to tell you that it's hateful, it's cruel,

603
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: and it's vile. I mean, you can cry about all

604
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: you want. I don't care. I'm not crying. I'm pissed.

605
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: It's Max. Are you intentionally being provocative? That's what people? Yes?

606
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: Why why are you being provocative? Electrolling people? It's fun

607
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: having that concept for doing it. So he's clearly just

608
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: someone who likes to like like this is a joke

609
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: to him. I don't think that he's any of this

610
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: is serious to him. I think it's just a joke.

611
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, if mom at a shirt, I'm like,

612
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: just like mom issues in a person, you know, like, um,

613
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: it's because I want to attend because I didn't get

614
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: enough as a child and no one will play with

615
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: me and one time they ditched me in the sandbox

616
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: for like the volleyball court and I didn't know how

617
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: to play volleyball, and uh, you know, it's just like

618
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god, go to therapy, bro, go

619
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: to therapy. People like again, what is it? What will

620
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: it take? And I think that's the woman who's like, yes,

621
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: I have the right to also, you know, stand in

622
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: front of you and call you hateful. She was excellent.

623
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: And then she points out that the media is going

624
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: to the provocateur and saying, which is just a really

625
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: funny statement. I mean, I don't no disrespect to local news,

626
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: but like or the free press, but like it is

627
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: very funny to be like, are you being intentionally provocative?

628
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like what is the other answer to that? No,

629
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: in my heart of hearts, I do believe that white

630
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: people are a superior race, Like, huh, interesting, expound on that,

631
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: you know, like, what, what's the other answer? Yes, he's

632
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: being provocative on per this does it as have to

633
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: do with his fund up ideology? Doesn't even matter? Yeah,

634
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: and ask him about that with a camera with a

635
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: bunch of camera crews in his face, like, sir, are

636
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: you intentionally being provocative? Are we? Like it's like you're

637
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: providing the answer is clearly yes, and you're providing him

638
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: the exact thing that the provocateur wants a platform. And

639
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 1: this is and I think it's important to remember, I believe,

640
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: or maybe fifteen, but kind of when the media was

641
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: lending a platform to people like Richard Spencer, people like

642
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: these sort of you know, um Nazis in suits or

643
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: sort of you know, and and on on the cusp

644
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: of the election of Donald Trump, effectively saying maybe we

645
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: need to listen to Nazis a little bit more. And

646
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: now that they've made their message a little more couth

647
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: and digestible, Um, you know, hey, they're not a hateful.

648
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: They just believe we should live in separate communities for

649
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: people of color and white people. And there's nothing hateful

650
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: about that, Like I mean just the mind trick that

651
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: I think white nationalists pulled on the media and the

652
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: media in turn pulled on us. We're seeing that in

653
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 1: a microcosm in this example that you that you brought up. Yeah,

654
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: it infuriates me and I will never forget this. There's

655
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: a there's a and I like the publication for the

656
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: most part, but like there's a Mother Jones piece where

657
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, the the dapper white supremacists walking through

658
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: town like that, I I feel like I it's like

659
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: burned into my memory of like what are we doing,

660
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: what are we normalizing, what are we glamorizing? What are

661
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: we giving a platform? And the thing that bucks with

662
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: me is I worry that we learned nothing. I worry

663
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: that when I when I look at like how the

664
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: media is covering somebody like Rhonda Santas for instance, I

665
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: worry that we have learned nothing. The media has learned

666
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: nothing about what kind of hateful, bullshit ideology they will

667
00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: amplify and normalize. Despite the fact that he's like rentalizing

668
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: trans youth and ship and like putting, you know, putting

669
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: immigrants on busses and ship, like rewriting history books. It

670
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: infuriates me the way that this kind of like horse

671
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: race kind of political converage is going. I see us

672
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 1: poised to do the same thing again where I see

673
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: these memes about like Rhonda Santis it's tall or like

674
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: things like that, where like, yeah, he's also like a

675
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: hate monger. Can we talk about that? Right? They're just

676
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: so desperate to move on from Trump, even though they're not.

677
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: I think there's just this. I mean, that's like our

678
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: political system is such especially and the media is like following.

679
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: The political system is so reliant on the idea that

680
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: there are two rational actors. Obviously, we have all of

681
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: two parties in this country, and they're both rational and

682
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: they're both great, and we can level with them, and

683
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's a balance of powers. And it's like, no,

684
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: it's not, it's bullshit. The one side doesn't believe in

685
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: a balance of powers. They believe in authoritarianism. But yeah,

686
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: you're you're, you're absolutely right. I'm because it is exactly that.

687
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: Rhonda Santis is the buttoned up Donald Trump and Richard

688
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: Spencer is the buttoned up David Duke. Right, And so

689
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: as long as he's not openly saying he's a member

690
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: of the KKK. It's all good and well. Even though

691
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: people hild Hitler in his little you know, like hotel

692
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: speech when Trump won, that's fine because he's in a

693
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: suit and he's got a nice haircut. Yeah, I God,

694
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: I want us to be better. We did. We deserve

695
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 1: a better we did. We deserve better media that can

696
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: like tell a better version of these stories that isn't

697
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 1: so harmful, Like like I'm exhausted because I know we're

698
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: not going to get it. Yeah. And also there's enough

699
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: on the Democratic side, Like there's enough, and we got

700
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: a lot of like conservative Dems. There's tons of drama

701
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: on this side. Talk about those folks. But anyway, I

702
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:55,959
Speaker 1: beg Chris. So, while all of this was happening to Kia,

703
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: her husband James was in very poor health and he

704
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: had to have open heart search. So I know, like

705
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: this ship had to be stressful for her, and so,

706
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: perhaps not surprisingly, ten days after she won the Democratic

707
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: nomination for a third term as state representative, she announced

708
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: that she was dropping her campaign and packed up and

709
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: left town shortly thereafter for her family's safety. Um, she

710
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: this is really sad, Like she talks about how her son,

711
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: who at the time was seven, saw the threats that

712
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: she got, like saw them and like understood them and

713
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: had questions about them, and was so scared that he

714
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: built a tried to build a panic room in their

715
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: home out of his closet. It's like it is scary

716
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: and sad. And after she left town, Mish was quoted

717
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: as saying, I won. I did it, so yeah, just

718
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: a real piece of ship. Good for you, asshole. I

719
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: hope it's given. You know, he's still unhappy, isn't that crazy?

720
00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: I think he's still unhappy. He's still insufferable, that's for sure.

721
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: This is this is the threat of equality. This is

722
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: what I mean. I love it, Like you want social justice, Like,

723
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? This is a predominantly white state,

724
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: a predominantly white electorate, predominantly white you know whatever state.

725
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: Body Like, in no way is she trying again by

726
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: her mere existence, her mere existence and the threat, the

727
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: supposed threat of one day there could be equality, one

728
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: day there could be two keya Morris is, Oh my

729
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: godture and and then it'll be all over. I mean,

730
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: we'll still have the power, white dudes, but we'll feel

731
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: like we don't because someone's gonna quote Audrey Lord to

732
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: us and what or like someone's gonna like want to

733
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: create a program for black youth in our state. Like,

734
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: So this story does not end there, because if you're thinking, wow,

735
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: it sounds like officials didn't do a great job of

736
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: taking the situation seriously or investigating it, you would be right.

737
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: After Kia left office, she fouled a complaint with Vermont's

738
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: Human Rights Commission in twenty nineteen alleged discrimination by the

739
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: police department and the Town of Bennington. An investigation found

740
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: that the Bennington police chief failed to disclose relevant information

741
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: about her harasser to her, including his possession of high

742
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: capacity firearms and details of an interview that they did

743
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: with his ex wife where she expressed concern for Kia's safety.

744
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: The investigator recommended that the commission find reasonable grounds at

745
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: the town of Bennington discriminated against her on the basis

746
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: of race and color, and the town had to publicly

747
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 1: apologize and agreed to pay her a hundred and thirty

748
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars. So, yeah, they didn't properly investigate it.

749
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: They withheld information that frankly, she should have been informed of,

750
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: and they just like didn't take it seriously. And when

751
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: online threats of an online abuse are not take and

752
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: seriously by people with power, dangerous things can happen. It

753
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: can get really really scary. And honestly, like I am

754
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: grateful that she it didn't it didn't come to like

755
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: actual physical violence that that that like, you know, it

756
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: didn't wind up like that, but it's so easily could have.

757
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 1: M oh obviously, And it's like and I mean essentially

758
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: she was paid to kind of go away, you know,

759
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, there's a settlement. I would argue it's

760
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: very low, but it's just like, well, that's the cost

761
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 1: of doing business and attempting to be a black woman

762
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 1: in the state legislature like or in leadership by like anyway, sorry,

763
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,479
Speaker 1: it's um and and I think it's also interesting because

764
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: you see, again there's like most it's a white people problem.

765
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: Like I'm reminded of W. Kmal Bells, like you know,

766
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: come get your boy when it comes to Trump. And

767
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: it's in terms of what happened to Kia, it's like

768
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: it's not a Kia problem, it's everybody else problem. And

769
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: you see, like you know, some of the white you know,

770
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: officials or police officers, folks around, and I think it's like,

771
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, you guys are the ones who have a

772
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: lot of work to do. It's a you you all problem.

773
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: It's it's not a key of problem. So how is

774
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: this systemic? And um and yeah, and also when are

775
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: we going to get to the idea that once everyone

776
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: is liberated, once there is equality, that will mean or

777
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: once the most marginalized are liberated, I mean liberty and

778
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: equality and freedom for everybody. Sorry, I've got to practice

779
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: that part before I run for president. Yeah, I mean

780
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 1: I would vote for you tomorrow. Thank thanks, thanks, hell. Yeah.

781
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: So these stories are obviously heartbreaking, but I also think

782
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: they show the true cost of to all of us

783
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: of what happens when things like online harassment and abuse

784
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: just go unchecked. And we know this, this kind of

785
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: harassment keeps marginalized people from running for office. You know,

786
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm sad to say that. I think a lot of

787
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: people we'll hear about the experiences of women like this

788
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:03,959
Speaker 1: and they'll be like, oh, well, that's just the cost

789
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: of being a public figure to deal with it. But

790
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: we deserve a political landscape where like this is not

791
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: just the cost of wanting the sort of your community,

792
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: especially but not cost is so much higher for the

793
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: most marginalized among us. Absolutely, I mean I think that

794
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: I think with the latest mid terms of the fact

795
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: that like young people came out in droves and that

796
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: you had, you know, the squad growing with a lot

797
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: of young folks and specifically young people of color, we

798
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: will stop normalizing this kind of crap and because there

799
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: will be just more of it, because there will be

800
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: more women in office, there will be more people of

801
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: color in office, which is a good thing, but then

802
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: this is the crap that comes along with it, and

803
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: so it's like not to mention the fact that younger

804
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: generations are god, I mean, from middle school dealing with

805
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: online harassment from peers from Rando's like it's just gone,

806
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: or the days of random A o L chats and

807
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 1: me logging in being like I am blonde, sexy lady. Hello.

808
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about how I was on the internet

809
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: as a kid. That's how I was too. I was like, yes,

810
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: that's how I was to write right, and you're like

811
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: now it's like, oh no, there's consequences and everyone's using

812
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: their real name and like people are stalking you and

813
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: what what um not that that wasn't happening then. But

814
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: so I feel like, especially since young folks are also

815
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: more Internet savvy and online harassment savvy and experience it,

816
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: we will arrive at a point, Bridget, and you will

817
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: be vindicated and all of your work in this show

818
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: and everything that you've been sounding the alarm on, I

819
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: know we will be vindicated. But it's just gonna take

820
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: a while. It's gonna give us like a decade, which

821
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: is too long, but I feel like we will arrive

822
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: in another point where this ship is just not as normalized. Yeah,

823
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: I actually agree with you. I think that, like you know,

824
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: we've seen historic numbers of young folks, women, people of

825
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: color running for office in this last cycle, and I

826
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: just think that we are different. I don't I don't think.

827
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: I don't think that we're going to tolerate this. And

828
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 1: I think that we are going to hold people with power,

829
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: whether it's legislators or policymakers or tech leaders, We're going

830
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: to force them to, you know, do what they can

831
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 1: to to create a situation where this isn't the norm,

832
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: because this is not this is not a functional democracy,

833
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: This is not a healthy democracy when this is how

834
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: the political landscape and the media landscape that people are

835
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: trying to compete it. It's just not healthy. It's not

836
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: a functional democracy. And I think young people are are

837
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: are smart enough to see that totally. And as and

838
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 1: and our Senate and our Congress are old. You guys

839
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: remember you remember when Zuckerberg testified, uh like a few

840
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: years ago, and it's like you got senators being like

841
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: a Mr Zuckerberg, what is the fire stand for? In

842
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: why five? Because I think why is wireless? Well what

843
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: is the five? You know? Just like like Mrs jul

844
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: what is my password to my Amazon account? Like the

845
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: most luddite as Senate? Right, And that's gonna change. And

846
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: I think when that change, as we slowly change it, yes,

847
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: we will hopefully have more protections. Yeah, it's so frustrating

848
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: to watch those hearings where it's like the people who

849
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: are in charge of making our policies around technology, like

850
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: I forget who what lawmaker? It was? What was like

851
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: will you commit to ending sense to and are you talking?

852
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: Like what are you saying? Sir? Like what are you saying?

853
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: And these are the people like I mean it. And

854
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: I also it also starts with getting like more young

855
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: people in office because like we just I mean, I

856
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, and surrounding them too, you know,

857
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 1: likely supporting, like getting aide, you know, asked the staffers.

858
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: Ten per cent of Senate is made up of men

859
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: named John. That's like a real thing, like spelled to

860
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 1: different ways, but end percent of Senate or John, Yeah,

861
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: that is a solid name when you're born in nineteen

862
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 1: twenty nine. Yeah, when you're a white guy who watched

863
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: the moon landing, Yeah, that's and so you know, when

864
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: it comes to these kinds of attacks and arrestments that

865
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: we're seeing, something I think is really interesting in telling

866
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: is that it seems like the goal of these attacks

867
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: is too really destroy marginalized candidates they're resolved, and to

868
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: get them to internalize this abuse that is directed at them.

869
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: This is from the folks who did the study um

870
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: at the Center for Democracy and Technology that they wanted

871
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: that these candidates felt very strong with that that the

872
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: point of this kind of harassment was to just get

873
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 1: them to internalize and accept the oppression that they face

874
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: as women and women of color and just drop out

875
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: of politics. And so you see that that has an

876
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: incredibly like silencing effect, you know, and unfortunately in the

877
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: research bears this out that these kinds of threats do

878
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: keep women from running for office or just sort of

879
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: engaging in public life in general or civic life, because

880
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: they're smart enough to see the way that other women

881
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: are treated. They see the way that law enforcement and

882
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: media really do nothing or make it worse, and they're like,

883
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: no fucking thanks, I don't want to deal with it,

884
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: you know. Just this afternoon, Nancy Pelosi announced that she's

885
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: ending her career in politics on the heels of that

886
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: horrific hammer attack against her husband, who not only was

887
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: attacked after being attacked, elected officials on like political figures

888
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: like and Elon Musk spread homophobic conspiracy theories about the attack,

889
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: joked about it, and part of me, it's like, I

890
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: can understand why she's just like, I'm out. You know,

891
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: when a woman runs for office or is a public

892
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: figure and she is attacked, it is never just her.

893
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: It is her partner, It is her kids, and here's

894
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: her parents, it is her community. And I can understand

895
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: why women are just like, you know, the cost is

896
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 1: just too high. I don't I don't want to put

897
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: myself or my family at risk to run for public office.

898
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: And so I'm not gonna do it or I'm gonna

899
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: check out of it. I can understand that. And so

900
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: I think if women can't run for public office safely,

901
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: then we will never have a truly representative democracy or

902
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: a functional democracy in general. You know, the author of

903
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: that report said, a lack of representation means that we

904
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: lose the important insights and solutions to public policy problems

905
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 1: that women of color will bring. We will all suffer.

906
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: We all suffer if everyone does not have a seat

907
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: at the table. And I could not agree more like,

908
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: it is not just about the women who are attacked

909
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: and targeted. All of us lose out when we don't

910
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: even have a shot at a at a landscape where

911
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: people can safely serve their public through running for office. Absolutely.

912
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm not the biggest fan of Pelosi,

913
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: but I do respect the hell out of her, and

914
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: what I will say, with people like her and also

915
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: people like Clinton, I wish they would do what Monica

916
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: Lewinski has done. Um, and I think that's part and

917
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: partial effect of Monica Lewinski is a little younger, but

918
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: like taking her the public um, the scrutiny, the harassment,

919
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: what she was put through and use sing it to

920
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: actually try and change the culture. And I think that

921
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: Hillary and Nancy Pelosi come from more of a generation

922
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: that's like you gotta like go you know, basically shut

923
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: up and get along and like um like whatever it is,

924
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: like get along to go along. I'm really terrible with

925
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: any kind of idioms today, but you know what I mean,

926
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: like we we right and so and it's like it's like, no,

927
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think we're done with that. And

928
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: I think that young women and all people are done

929
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: with the like no, you have to shut up in

930
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: order to appease these systems and halls of power. It's like, no,

931
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,720
Speaker 1: you don't. And and so I hope that Nancy Pelosi

932
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: in her because she's not gonna rest. This one is

933
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: never gonna rest until she's dead. Like she's gonna keep

934
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: on working. And I hope she uses you know, um,

935
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: her time to try and not cut the ladder from

936
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: out underneath her, but help young women also accelerate and

937
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: succeed in politics as well. She hasn't got a great

938
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: track record with that, gonna be real. She jumped on

939
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,240
Speaker 1: a little bit of the anti squad, anti il Han Omar,

940
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, calling elhan Omar anti semitic when she totally

941
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: was not being anti Semitic. So, Nancy, you know, I

942
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: hope you do better. Thank you for your service. I

943
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 1: agree with you. Like Monica Lewinsky, it is she's She's

944
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: my White Whale podcast guest because I think the way

945
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: that she has turned something that was like meant to

946
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: silence her and belittle her, she turned it into a

947
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: platform and she really changed the conversation about online shaming

948
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: and online harassment and online bullying. And I respect the

949
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: hell out of it. Monica, if you're listening, please call me.

950
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: You're my White Whale guest. She did that that Ted

951
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: talk about the price of shame, that's right, and she

952
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: she has a really good duck. She's in a really

953
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: good documentary called fifteen Minutes of Shame on HBO Max,

954
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: which everyone should watch, all about online shaming. Um. But yeah,

955
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: I agree. I hope that this becomes a kind of

956
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: situation where women are not expected to suffer in silence

957
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: and and have a kind of like poised face because

958
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't serve anybody. And it's funny because

959
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: in an interview I listened to with Kia. She was asked,

960
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 1: she said that she said that so many people were like,

961
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: you should just ignore this. You don't, You shouldn't stoop

962
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: to their level. You should just ignore it. And I'm

963
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: so glad that she didn't ignore it, because it started

964
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: a conversation about what is and it's not acceptable in discourse.

965
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: And you know, if you ignore it, it just festers

966
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: and gets more empowered. And so the advice of just

967
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: saying like, oh, rise above, you know, go high, don't

968
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 1: go low and ignore it. You're too good to respond,

969
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: I don't think that advice is really serving anybody, particularly

970
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: if you're marginalized or you're like a young person who's

971
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: coming up on this like online next generation. Yes, absolutely,

972
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: And I think it's why a lot of people who

973
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: are harassed incessantly often post um those d m s

974
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: or that harassment um or the you know, air the

975
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,959
Speaker 1: voicemails that you know, people like Ao serial Han nomar

976
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: get Um or Primelagia Paul, who I believe was threatened

977
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, more folks need

978
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: to understand this is a daily occurrence before we actually

979
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: like take it seriously. Um and whether or not PEP

980
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: Baila Maximish understands it. I mean, he's not getting paid

981
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: by anybody, but he's absolutely part and parcel of this

982
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: system designed to like, yeah, keep women and people of

983
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: color out of any kind of decision making process over

984
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: their lives exactly. And I'm so glad that you put

985
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: it that way, because this was my my whole intention

986
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: behind this podcast is that it's so easy to think

987
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 1: that when someone is being targeted in this way, it's individual,

988
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: and certainly it has individual impacts, of course, but it's

989
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: also institutional. It's also systems. It's also you know, power

990
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: structures that enable it or you know, amplify it or

991
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: profit off of it. Right, it's and so we need

992
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: to start picking apart and calling out all of the

993
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: systems that make this kind of harassment a viable thing

994
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: for people to do, and break those systems and say

995
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: we're not going to tolerate this. If you want to

996
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: engage in this kind of discourse, we're not going to

997
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: amplify it, we're not going to incentivize that. You're not

998
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: going to be able to build a platform off of it,

999
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,399
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be effective. You're gonna pay

1000
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: two dollars for that d M. Yes, honestly I would

1001
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: accept some like harassing d ms if I got two

1002
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: hundred dollars every time. Okay, yeah, you gotta give me

1003
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 1: five bucks, but yeah, say whatever you want need to

1004
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: say to me, s j W cool what um catching Exactly,

1005
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: it's like a cameo but for hate. Yes you need

1006
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: to you need to like pitch this to some venture capitalists, Bran.

1007
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: But that's the whole thing that the irony is exactly

1008
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: what you're saying, which is these platforms already pay for

1009
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: they get that stuff for free. They're the ones making

1010
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: money off of the hate. It's going into their pocket.

1011
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: And it's like I would say, I mean, like I

1012
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: would argue that marginalized people, we are absorbing the hate

1013
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: to make tech leaders more money and externality of capitalism.

1014
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. What if Google was like, listen, Bridget,

1015
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: if you get trolled, I'll give you two hundred dollars

1016
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: every time, like every like hateful tweet that I might,

1017
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: I'd be like, that's that that would be a good solution.

1018
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: It would certullly incentivize them to you know, fix the problem,

1019
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: which is all we're asking for. And I guess this

1020
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: is my like overall point. You know, we especially in

1021
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, we love our slogans like support black women, Yes,

1022
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: trust black women, like I have a Trust black Women shirt,

1023
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: and I am all on board for like championing the

1024
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: leadership with black women. But we can't just say, you know,

1025
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: support black women without also being honest about the unfair, racist,

1026
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: sexist attacks and harassment that they will they will probably

1027
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: face when they get into these leadership roles that we

1028
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: like are vocally supporting them for. And so we need

1029
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: to be creating the conditions that those women that we

1030
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: love to champion also have a chance at an equal

1031
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 1: playing field, that we're not just setting them up to

1032
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: be knocked down, to have to like you know, abandoned

1033
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: their office and leave town because of harassment and threats

1034
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: and garbage. Amen. And we didn't even talk about Castangi

1035
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: Brown Jackson, but my mind went to her as well. Yes,

1036
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: coming coming soon, coming, so great, example, coming awesome. That

1037
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: is all I have from There is like no one

1038
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: else that I would rather have dug into all this

1039
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: with than you. And I appreciate you taking the time

1040
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: after you've, you know, had so much going on so

1041
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: much going on babies. Probably it's been two hours time

1042
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: to feed yet again, I'm gonna go soak my aching nipples. Guys,

1043
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: that's am I deal with it. We need to support

1044
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: women much more. Um but yeah, Bridget, this has been

1045
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: awesome and um, I mean awful. But also like people

1046
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: like you're like, oh, yeah, there's hope, there is hope.

1047
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: You make me feel very hopeful. And where can folks

1048
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: follow you and what you're up to? Yeah, dude, follow

1049
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: me on all things at Franny fo f R A

1050
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: n I f I oh and then the Bituation Room

1051
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: as a podcast. It's also a live stream every Tuesday

1052
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: one pm Pacific four pm Eastern on YouTube and twitchy. Internet.

1053
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: Hate Machine is a production of cool Zone Media. For

1054
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, check out our website

1055
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or find us on the

1056
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1057
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: your podcasts.