1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome is stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamp and my name is Julie 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: soul Patch Douglas soul Patch Douglas. Yeah, and weear my 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: soul patch today. Oh yeah, right there on the chin. Yeah. 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: I've often wondered about the naming of the soul patch. 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Is it is it tied into anything? Like there are 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: no chakras that line up with the chin uh? Like, 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: why is that like an energy point where the growth 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: of a little facial hair would somehow protect the soul 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: patch the soul, keep the soul in the body. What 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: does it mean when you shave it off to you? 13 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: Are you soul? This we're already getting into that that 14 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: that that that ever present issue of of the soul, 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: the human soul. And we've we've talked about this before 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: in the past. This idea of of some immortal slice 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves dates back to ancient times. Ancient religions used 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: of use of an astral body, This idea that you 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: have your physical body, but then there's also some there's 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: an immage, immaterial immortal you as well, and then you 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: can take that all the way up into the twentieth 22 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: century um where most of philosophers are are toying with 23 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: this idea of persons has souls and human beings are 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: made up of two substances, soul and body, soma and sark. Yeah, 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to point out that the ancient Hebrew word 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: for soul is nepeesche, meaning life or vital breath. The 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: Greek word for soul is psyche or mind, which I 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: think gives another flavor of this idea of soul, And 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: the Roman Latin word for soul is animal or spirit 30 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: or breath. So in all of these variations on the 31 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: word soul, you see how it is multilayered, and again 32 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: this sort of ephemeral quality to it that's sort of 33 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: like fog that you can't trap into a suitcase. Feeling right, yeah, 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: and a lot And we're not gonna get too deep 35 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: into this, but I mean, obviously he has is. We're 36 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: we're dealing with our ephemeral lives and the ephemeral lives 37 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: of everyone else around us, Like it's it's it's very 38 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: tempting to to fall into that line of thinking and 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: to or even you know, to to embrace that line 40 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: of thinking where when you look at the dead body 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: of a loved one and there's something like the spark 42 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: has gone, the life has gone out of them. To 43 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: think about that spark being somewhere else. Yeah, I was 44 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: thinking about that with the law of contagion. We've talked 45 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: about that before. It's it's magical thinking that things that 46 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: have once been in contact with each other will continue 47 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: to act on each other at a distance even when 48 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: physical contact has been severed. And in this sense, the 49 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: soul is part of that contagient, this idea that the 50 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: persistence of the individual soul u continues after life ends. Yeah, 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: so again you come down to you have the physical world, 52 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: and you have this world of the spirit, this world 53 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: of the unseen. Right. Uh. And I'm not and I'm 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: I'm not like a hardcore skeptic who's going to say, 55 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: all right that you know only the scientific side of things, 56 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: don't you know, don't even entertain the idea of the unseen. 57 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the unseen has it has a 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: place in my life. I recognize it has an important 59 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: place in other people's lives. The inevitable conflict, though, is 60 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: when you have scientific understanding of the world butting heads 61 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: with ideas about the unseen and and and magical thinking 62 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: and uh and at times elaborate metaphysical ideas about what 63 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: is happening to some immortal part of ourselves. The problem 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: here is that you cannot prove the soul. You cannot 65 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: disprove it. And yet it's one of the maybe the 66 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: largest looming questions that we have as humans because it 67 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: involves the sort of beginning and ends of things that 68 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: we've talked about before. You've even tied this back to 69 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: the Big Bang. We know the Big Bang began, that's 70 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: when time be in. What was before it, you know 71 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: what is after it. So it all sort of circles 72 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: back into this idea of it's culmination of atoms that's 73 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: organized in our individual bodies. What is there some sort 74 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: of fate for that that we don't understand or we 75 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: don't know or they're not Yeah, I think skeptic Michael 76 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: schermer Uh puts it perfectly over on skeptics dot com 77 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: excellent website. Um He says, I define the soul as 78 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: the unique pattern of information that represents the essence of 79 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: a person. By this definition, unless there is some medium 80 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: to retain the pattern of our personal information. After we die, 81 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: our soul dies with us. Our bodies are made of 82 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: proteins coated by our DNA, so that the disintegration of 83 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: d n A, our protein patterns are lost forever. Our 84 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: memories and personality are stored in the pattern of neurons 85 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: firing in our brain, So when those neurons die, it 86 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: spells the death of our memories and personality, similar to 87 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: the ravages of stroke and Alzheimer's disease, only final. And 88 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: this underlying the fact that it's really difficult to try 89 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: and use science to create a working model of of 90 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: of what a soul would even be. Yeah, the soul 91 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: problem is very similar to the immortality problem and the 92 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: consciousness problem. And I would even say that, um that 93 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: in some ways consciousness is we've talked about it, and 94 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: we do talk about it is kind of a stand 95 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: in for the soul, and that maybe in these more 96 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: modern times we talked less about the soul and more 97 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: about consciousness because we have this idea of consciousness about being, 98 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: this awareness and it existing inside of time, and the 99 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: big question is can it exist outside of time? And 100 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: if you say consciousness arises from the electrochemical process of 101 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: the brain and nothing more than you could take the 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: hard line and say that when the lights go out 103 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: in the brain, so too does consciousness, so too does 104 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: this sense of soul. Yeah. Indeed, hearkens back to our 105 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: episode on reincarnation where you had scientific xplory of reincarnation 106 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: and they referred to it as UH survival of of 107 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: of consciousness. Now that doesn't mean that that some intrepid 108 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: UH explorers out there in the world couldn't try to 109 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: quantify the soul UH qualified even And there is one 110 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: person in particular named Duncan McDougall who was a respected 111 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: turn of the century surgeon in Massachusetts, and he was 112 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: occupied with a very particular question which maybe even started 113 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: out as a thought experiment, but then became an actual 114 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: experiment that he tried to do. And according to Mary 115 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: Roach in her book Spook, McDougald wrote, quote, it is 116 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: unthinkable that personality and consciousness can be attributes of that 117 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: which does not occupy space. And if they occupy space, 118 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: he reasoned, they must have weight. He says, quote the 119 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: equal the question arose in my mind, why not weigh 120 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 1: a man at the very moment of death? This he thought, 121 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: would give you the exact weight of the soul, and 122 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: not just the weight of the soul of like, hey, 123 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: I wonder how much this wul ways, but more like 124 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: the soul exists. Yeah, he's going into it with the 125 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: preconceived notion there's a soul. Uh. The open question is 126 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: how much does it weigh? Now. This led to McDougall 127 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: hanging around a consumptive's home around nineteen o one, chatting 128 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: up the gravely ill tuberculoisis patients and, according to McDougal's 129 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: writings in the Journal of the American Society for Physical Research, 130 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: obtaining consent from a few of them to weigh their 131 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: bodies at the moment of their death and side note, uh, 132 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: he chose this particular illness advanced stages stage of tuberculosis 133 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: because quote, a consumpt of dying after a long illness, 134 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: wasting his energies, dies with scarcely a movement to disturb 135 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: the beam means that the beam that is on the 136 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: scale their bodies are all a very light and we 137 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: can be for a warned for hours that a consumptive 138 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: is dying, because you need that window in which to act, 139 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: and he's not a complete crazy person. So he's not 140 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: gonna go around killing people. No, no, I actually thought 141 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: this was a very a logical way to hone in 142 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: on the person who's dying, that you would the ideal 143 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: dying person, right, is going to be quiet about it 144 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: and easily transported. Indeed, so he transports him in. He 145 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: puts him on the bed on the scale, and uh. 146 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: In on April tenth, nine oh one, Uh, he you 147 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: could say, treats his first patient. Assisted by two physicians, 148 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: they watch a man die upon a cot placed upon 149 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: a customized industrial scale scale for weighing silk. Yes, and 150 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: for three and a half hours, they watch his every 151 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: single movement, his chest going up and down, to try 152 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: to determine the exact moment that he dies so that 153 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: they can hopefully record a lowering of his weight, which 154 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: would uh give them some sort of clue that the 155 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: soul had escaped the body. And low and behold he 156 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: dies in the scale lowers to three quarters of an 157 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: ounce or about indeed. Uh. And so that's where you've 158 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: ever heard the twenty one Grahams. It was the name 159 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: of a film several years ago. And and and in 160 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: naming the film that they probably helped substantiate this, uh, 161 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: this idea that the solways twenty one ground. Yeah. And 162 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: in fact, right before he published his results in American Medicine, 163 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: he had a paper that he was um publishing. The 164 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: New York Times got wind of this, and they pretty 165 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: much just reported it as fact, like, hey, by the way, 166 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: the soul when it departs twenty one grams, and that 167 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: kind of cemented this idea in popular culture that this 168 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: was indeed a thing. Yeah. I mean despite the fact, 169 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: as we'll get into that, it's not like everyone was like, oh, 170 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: that sounds great, I buy that. No, there was plenty 171 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: of scientific minds out there criticized this after it came out, 172 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: but um, McDougal repeated this experiment five times. Um. His 173 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: his findings appeared in American Medicine nineteen seven, and uh, 174 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: that's when the well deserved criticisms began to roll in 175 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: regarding these experiments. In their findings, findings that were there 176 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: were crude, varying, and unreplicated in subsequent experiments. And naturally, 177 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: that's a major red flag about any experiment out there. 178 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: If if, if no one else can follow your steps 179 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: and come to the same result. Now, Mary Roach in 180 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: her books Books says there are two ways of looking 181 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: at mcdougald's findings. One is that he was pretty much 182 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: like a nutter. That's that's actually the word she uses 183 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: for him, um. And the other is that his experiment 184 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: protocols were weak sauce, essentially lacking rigor and uniformity. And 185 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that. So the not a question 186 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: is interesting, why why might he have been a nutter? Well, 187 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: he wrote his thesis on the law of similars, this 188 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: idea that like cures like and this is a homeopathic 189 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: approach to medicine. Now, back in his day, homeopathy was 190 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: not something that was fringe. UM. McDougald was just kind 191 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: of following the lead at the time. So it may 192 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: not be that he was so much a nutter, but 193 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: maybe just trying to rack up some accolades and some 194 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: status where he could. Now I was pointed out by 195 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: mcdougald's contemporary critics, um and and this may have come 196 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: to the mind of people listening as well. Um. There 197 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: are other things that leave the body over the course 198 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: of death, um, such as a theces and urine and uh. 199 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: And so this was one instant critic criticism where people say, well, 200 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: the body died urine, THECES came out, maybe that had 201 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: something to do with the loss. McDougal was quick to 202 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: insist that the bed on the scales would have caught 203 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: all of this, so it wouldn't be an issue. But still, 204 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: there's something called insensible loss. This is body weight that 205 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: is continually lost through evaporating perspiration, through water vapor in 206 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: your breath, and just throughout a normal day, and daily 207 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: loss really can't be measured, but we're probably talking like 208 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: between forty and six hundred UM mill of leaders in 209 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: an adult under normal circumstances, and certainly death is not 210 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: a normal circumstance, right, So you have that criticism going 211 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: on about what the loss actually consists of, and then 212 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: you have the criticism again of the scientific rigors or 213 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: the lack of them. So let's consider that first, six 214 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: dying patients is not a large enough sample size. Just 215 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: the outset like this is not, you know, something that 216 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: draw a bunch of conclusions upon. Second, the time of 217 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: death is a really tricky thing. Even now, it's a 218 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: tricky thing. So when you look at McDougal's work, you 219 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: have to wonder what he did he mean by the 220 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: time of death, are we talking about cellular death, brain death, 221 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: physical death, heart death, legal death? And the fact that 222 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: at that time they didn't really have all of the 223 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: technology available to even try to determine any of those. Third, 224 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: his data in his sample size was all over the place. 225 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: Two of the results had to be excluded because of 226 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: technical difficulties. For instance, when it came to patient number four, 227 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: McDougald wrote, quote, our scales were not finally adjusted, and 228 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: there was a good deal of interference by people opposed 229 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: to our work. And he doesn't say, like, what what 230 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: do you mean? What people? What kind of interference? I mean, 231 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: I can't help the picture people with pitchforks, like out 232 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: of franky, Yeah yeah right. Um. And then one patients 233 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: death did show a drop in weight of about three 234 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: eighths of an ounce, but this later reversed itself. Two 235 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: of the other patients registered and immediate loss of weight 236 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: at the moment of death, but then their weight dropped 237 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: again in a few minutes later, so that that led 238 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: uh some people that say, well did that person tied twice? Um, 239 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: And only one of the six patients showed a sudden 240 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: and non reversible loss of weight of three four s 241 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: of an ounce of course our twenty one Graham, So 242 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: that's one and as you had said in follow up studies, 243 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: this could not be replicated. Now fil this under the 244 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: the realization that McDougal again is probably not a complete 245 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: crazy person like he He knew that he lacked concrete findings. 246 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: He didn't say case closed, just the soul. He wanted 247 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: to do more, including placing an electric chair on the 248 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: scale so as to measure the sole loss of an 249 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: executed prisoner, but there was already objection from from local officials. 250 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: So definitely there was opposition to the prospect of executing 251 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: people in his lab. So he didn't get to experiment 252 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: on people anymore after these initial experiments. Now he did 253 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: turn to dogs. He experimented on fifteen which he killed himself. Uh, 254 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: and he saw no weight change, but he had an 255 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: explanation for that, maybe dogs just don't have souls, which 256 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: kind of underlines again the problem of taking the seen 257 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: world of science and using it to investigate the unseen, 258 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: that where so much of it is just based on 259 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: on these these different metaphysical ideas of and these different 260 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: constructs of how it's supposed to work. Um, does a 261 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: dog have a soul? You know? Yeah, I mean you 262 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: have to say it's his? Is his? Uh? This is 263 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: not for a lack of trying. I mean he once 264 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: he cannot have access to humans, he's going to dogs. 265 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: He's also inviting other people to try to replicate his results, 266 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: to try to do these experiments. But of course, and 267 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: the medical community isn't exactly embracing this. Luckily, ten years later, 268 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: Los Angeles Polytechnic High School physics teacher h. Laft Whining 269 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: self published a book called The Physical Theory of the Soul, 270 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: in which he decided to jump into this and you know, 271 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: following the footsteps, the scientific footsteps of McDougal. Um, he 272 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: didn't work on any people, but he did kill thirty mice, 273 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: which he was convinced must surely have souls, which is 274 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: again it's an interesting, colorful a deviation from from McDougall 275 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: himself said the dogs probably don't have souls, is why 276 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: he didn't register. But he's going into this saying, yes, 277 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: mice have souls and therefore their perfect thing to experiment 278 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: on in his soul weighing experiments using a varying UH 279 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: and at times creative methods of execution resulted mostly with 280 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: no loss. No possible weight loss that you could attribute 281 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: to a soul, the only one save in the case 282 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: of cyanide poison mice UH which he conducted may have 283 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: lost weight via frantic death throw perspiration. So he drowned 284 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: some mice after that in a sealed container and recorded 285 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: no weight change. So this is probably our best exam 286 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: ample of someone following up his work abbit with mice 287 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: and in recording his results. Yeah, that is actually pretty 288 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: rigorous testing and experimenting in comparison to the next person 289 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: who takes on McDougal's legacy, and his name is Gilbert Carpenter, 290 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: and in he publishes the online book Physically Wing the Soul. Now, 291 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: he does not conduct any experiments himself, but he does 292 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: a lot of tinkering with numbers, and he thinks about 293 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: this deeply. And his idea was that the souls of 294 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: the dogs and mice were so light that they just 295 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't register on the scale. That's why this this is failing. 296 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: And according to Mary Roach and Spook quote using McDougal's findings, 297 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: that the soul weighs about twenty Graham's Carpenter calculated the 298 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: ratio of soul weight to body weight at birth one 299 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: to forty. He then applied this to typical puppy birth 300 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: weight and from there deduced the average dog soul weighs 301 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: one gram, which it turns out is less than the 302 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: sensitivity of the scale McDougal used to weigh the dead dogs. 303 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: And I that's the rub right, because mcdougull's scale was, 304 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: according to McDougald, accurate to one sixteenth of an ounce 305 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: or one point eight grams. Therefore, dog soul to light. 306 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: Now that seems like a convenient loophole. I wanted to 307 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: mention that other features of a Carpenter's book is that 308 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: he calculates the volume of the human soul, and this 309 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: volume he uses them as a metric, dubbing it the 310 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: MAC after McDougal. He puts forth the idea that one 311 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: way to weigh the soul would be to weigh a 312 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: pregnant woman at the moment that the MAC entered the 313 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: fetus around forty three days, when the brain waves are 314 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: first detected. He says, um, and if you have a pint. 315 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: He even goes into this, This is a great Mary 316 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: Rage goes into this in in her books book Um 317 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: that he suggests that the best way to get rid 318 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: of a ghost is to invite a pregnant woman over 319 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: around that three day period and then use her as 320 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,239 Speaker 1: a portal to store the ghost away. Well that that 321 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: makes the next perfect sense. It gets worse from there. 322 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: There's there's talk about lepri cons too, Yeah, something about 323 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: the like the human soul would take up the space 324 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: of a lepricn because you want to start throwing lepricn 325 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: into your study just to make yourself, no, make it 326 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: seem like you know what you're talking about. Yeah, and 327 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: then there's some calculations about Jesus soul, which is I 328 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: don't know, five hundred two hons. Uh. What I like 329 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: about it is that he did do some reverse engineering 330 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: with mathematics to try to get at the heart of this. 331 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, this is where McDougal's legacy leaves off. Yes, 332 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: indeed it does. UM. But you know, we're gonna take 333 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna 334 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: look at some some more modern uh cosmic uh and 335 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: physics based ideas about what what this where this soul 336 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: might be in and indeed how you might try and 337 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: measure it in some way. All Right, we're back, and 338 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: I bet you, just bet you that quantics is going 339 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: to get wrapped up in all this whole wing. Oh yeah. 340 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, quantum physics is kind of a it's a 341 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: handy place at times to sort of store these unknowns, right, 342 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: because it's kind of it's kind of a wild frontier 343 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: in many respects um. In Mary Roach's book Spook, she 344 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: does talk to an individual by the name of Gary 345 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: naum Um. He's a Duke University Medical School professor, uh, 346 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: and he has done a fair amount of thinking in 347 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: this now he's he's he's done a bit of writing 348 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: on oh on on predicting the future via science, uh, 349 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: into to what extent we can do it. And he's 350 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: also done a lot of of of thinking and writing 351 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: on consciousness. So he proposed, is that one interesting way 352 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: to potentially measure or at least hunt for the weight 353 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: of the soul, if you will, is to use hermetically 354 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: sealed box a top hyper sensitive scales. Alright, so far 355 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: that that pretty much lines up with some earlier notions 356 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: we're discussing, But then he ads this you also surround uh, 357 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: the box and the scales with various radiant energy detectors. 358 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: Why well, because information, right, Because in Schermer's words that 359 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, we're talking about this unique pattern of 360 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: information that represents the essence of a person, and that 361 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: information is energy. There's always a weight loss with energy loss, 362 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: and if the energy changes, then the mass must change 363 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: in some minute, barely discernible way. So uh Nam's idea 364 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: here is that if more mass dissipates they can be 365 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: accounted for due to energy change, then perhaps perhaps that 366 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: extra energy would be consciousness leaving the body. And since 367 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: energy can neither be created or destroyed, it has to 368 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: go somewhere, right, Um, now, that's somewhere. Uh is kind 369 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: of trippy because uh In according to some of the 370 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: names uh uh theories and in idea and ideas here 371 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: he postulates that, based on the increase of black hole 372 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: entropy in the region of event horizons, that similarly the 373 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: negative entropy or post death ordered transformed consciousness may go 374 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: through a type of extra dimensional parallel universe hyperspace in 375 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: the regions of the plank length, where the energy of 376 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: the departed consciousness goes into small types of singularities embedded 377 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: within our own four dimensional spacetime world. In two thousand five, 378 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: attempted to raise some money for experimentation, but nothing came 379 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: to fruition. But again he's he's written about this, and 380 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: it's at the very least it's some some very interesting 381 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: thought experimentation in terms of again taking on that difficult 382 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: task of trying to make create a working model how 383 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 1: a soul and survival of the soul might work in 384 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: our scientific world. But how do you suss out the 385 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: electrochemical um changes in the brain that are part of 386 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: death and part of consciousness and then just part of 387 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: the rest of your body, Uh, you know, falling apart. Atomically, 388 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: We're not falling apart, but you know, I'm saying like 389 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: this is where it gets. At this point, you just 390 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: you just want to call the ghostbusters proton PACs, you know. 391 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: So this makes me think about Richard Kiman, who gave 392 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: this talk about scientific rigor and about really trying to 393 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: make sure that your processes were correct. And he talks 394 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: about this experiment with rats in nine seven and it 395 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: says it's a little known experiment, but as guy Paul 396 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: Thomas Young had this long corridor with um doors on 397 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: one side that the rats amen, and doors on the 398 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: other side of those doors there was food, and he 399 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: wanted to see if he could train the rats to 400 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: go in at the third down, third door down from 401 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: wherever they had started from. And this corridor, all of 402 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: this was uniformly constructed, right, But the thing is is 403 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: that the rats would keep going to the door where 404 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: the food was previously, and this was driving him nuts, 405 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: and he tried to figure out different things he could do. 406 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: He painted the doors really carefully, arranging the textures on 407 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: the faces of the doors exactly the same. But still 408 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: the rats would go to the previous door where the 409 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: food had been. And then he thought maybe the rats 410 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: were smelling the food, so he changed the smell of 411 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: the food with chemicals, and then the rats could still tell. 412 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: And eventually he figured out that the rats could discern 413 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: the previous door by the way the floor sounded when 414 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: they ran over it. And so I bring this up 415 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: because the story about this is that you have to 416 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: discover all the things about something before you can discover 417 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: what it is you're specifically going in to try to 418 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: discover about the rats, right, like you have to discover 419 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: everything you can about this process before you can actually 420 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: get the results you want. And this is a kind 421 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: of scientific rigor that you know, hopefully everybody is bringing 422 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: to the table when they're conducting experiments, and it makes 423 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: it this is something concrete, rats amazed, and now you're 424 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: talking about something extremely abstract with souls and then trying 425 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: to apply science to that. And then again this is 426 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: where it all falls apart. And Adam Frank, who is 427 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: a theoretical computational master physicists, he says, quote for myself, 428 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: I remain fully, infirmly agnostic on the question of a 429 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: natural life in the soul. If ever there was a 430 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: place where firm convictions seemed misplaced, this is it. They're 431 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: simply is no controlled, experimental, verifiable information to support either 432 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: you wrought versus you go on positions. You know, I 433 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: think I've made this analogy before, but when I when 434 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: it comes to you know, science and religion or faith 435 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: or metaphysics bumping heads. I've been think of it in 436 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: terms of someone who has a pet um python and 437 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: a pet rat, like they are both fine pets to have. 438 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: It's it's you know, and you can you can gain 439 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: a lot from that relationship with that that that rat 440 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: a lot from that relationship with that that snake. But 441 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: it would be foolhardy to keep them in the same case, 442 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: Like it's they cannot live in the same enclosure without 443 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: the inevitable occurring. And and I often feel like that 444 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: with with these matters, like I can't have my pet 445 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: rat and I have my pet snake, but I know 446 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: that there are compatibility issues between the two. You know, 447 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: we remember this keynotes speech we gave and it was 448 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, and we were doing it at a confidence 449 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: and we were talking about how science is not apart 450 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: from us. And one of the points we were making 451 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: is that science is storytelling, and uh, you you break 452 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: it down to just like here, it is trying to 453 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: be as pragmatic and objective and empirical as possible about 454 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: your reality. And yet on the other side of all 455 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: of those particulars is a story that comes out of it. 456 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: And so I think that we are completely compelled. We 457 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: can't help ourselves to try to put a story, even 458 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: in scientific terms, to the two things that maybe we 459 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: don't really have the understanding or the correct language to depict. 460 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: And that's where trying to well the way a soul 461 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: comes in and becomes like this problematic, really messy problem 462 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: that we get into. Alright, today, you have it of 463 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: the soul. What happens when science and religion come together 464 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: and we try to prove the unseen world of using 465 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: the tools of the scene. If you would like to 466 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: hear more from us, check out all the podcast episodes 467 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: that's stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, along with 468 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: blog post videos, links out to our social media accounts, 469 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: you name it. And if you want to weigh in 470 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: on the soul matters, well you can do so by 471 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: sending us an email to blow the mind at how 472 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com.