1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: For the best experience, listen with headphones. This is a 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 2: bonus episode of season three of Strange Arrivals. Bonus episodes 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: feature interviews that I conducted during my research but that 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: I either didn't use or used sparingly in the main episodes. 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: There were great conversations that, for one reason or another, 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: didn't make the cut, but I think they add valuable 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: perspective to the ideas we explored this season. Doctor Diana 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: Pisolka is professor of philosophy and religion at University of 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: North Carolina, Wilmington and the author of the very interesting 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: book American Cosmic. I interviewed her in May of twenty 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: twenty two, just a few days before the first congressional 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: hearing in more than fifty years, to focus on military 15 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: reports of UFOs. As you'll see, we have quite different 16 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: takes on the UFO phenomenon, but I think she has 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 2: a unique approach and I really enjoyed our conversation. 18 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: So I am Diana Pasolka, and I'm a professor at 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: the University of North Carolina in Wilmington and I have 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: been a professor there for twenty years. I have a 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: PhD in religious studies, and my field has been in 22 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: Catholic history and Catholic traditions. That's what I was trained in. 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: Before that, I lived in California. I grew up in 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: the California environment of eclectic spirituality. My mother is kind 25 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: of like a reformed Jew, and my father was Catholic. 26 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: I went to Catholic schools. I was Catholic, really, I mean, 27 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, and I went to Catholic high school. And 28 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: then after that I decided to attend the Jesuit School Theology, 29 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: which is a tribute. It's affiliated with Berkeley's UC Berkeley's 30 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: they have a partnership. It's like a divinity school. It's 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: called the Graduate Theological Union. And I did my master's 32 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: degree with taking classes at UC Berkeley and taking classes 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: at the Jesuit School Theology and the Jewish School Theology there, 34 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: and then I went to Syracuse University to get a PhD. 35 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, And one other thing about the way 36 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: I've been trained is I did this in the late 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: nineties and nineties and well actually throughout the nineties. And 38 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: this was in California, where I grew up during the 39 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: dot com boom, so I was fascinated with technology and 40 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: how technology informs belief and especially like beliefs about God 41 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: and things like that. So I've spent a lot of time, 42 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: actually since I was eleven, reading everything I could about religion, religion, technology, technology, philosophy, 43 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, everything I could find about these these things. 44 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: So I didn't intend ever to study UFOs. I thought 45 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: that they were very odd. I didn't want anything to 46 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: do with them. But I ended up doing that in 47 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, and now I've been doing that ever since. 48 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 2: So twenty eleven, what was kind of your entree into 49 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: the UFO world. 50 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of strange, but this is it. There 51 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: were a few things. I was finishing a book on 52 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, in which it was it 53 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: was a huge project. I went to archives all over 54 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: and I looked at anecdotes from European Catholics, North American Catholics, 55 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: Canadian Catholics, from you know, for the Europeans back to 56 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: Frankly from the eleven hundreds up to the eighteen hundreds. 57 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: And what I was looking at is Catholics used to 58 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: do devotions to souls in purgatory, and that all kind 59 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: of stopped, and they don't do those anymore, and I 60 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: wanted to know why. And so what I found was 61 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: I found the reasons for that, and I wrote a 62 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: book about it. But I also found that Catholics had 63 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: a lot of experiences of aerial phenomena from basically a 64 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: thousand years ago till now. And because they're Catholics, and 65 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: you know, and their the Catholic Church takes pretty good notes, 66 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're known for their record keeping. And 67 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: I've been to the Vatican Library and Secret Archive and 68 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: looked at a lot of the documents there. I found 69 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: that there were all of these aerial phenomena incidences, and 70 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: the frameworks for understanding those were basically religious, you know, 71 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: like they've you know, they thought these were their souls 72 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: from purgatory. They'd see something like a disc in the 73 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: sky and they'd call it an angel, or they call 74 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: it a demon, or they call it a lost soul 75 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: from purgatory. But they were, you know, the patterns were 76 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: really the same. And at this point it never occurred 77 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: to me that these were like kind of like UFOs, 78 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: but they were. They were you know, unidentified objects that 79 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: then were identified through Catholic frameworks. So I finished this 80 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: book and I had a big log of these accounts, 81 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: and I didn't quite understand. I knew that i'd do 82 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: something with them, but I wasn't quite sure what. And 83 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: the Japanese tsunami happened, and that was just something that 84 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: was so incredibly devastating and tragic and like just apocalyptic, right, 85 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: like kind of like the end of the world for 86 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: this country kind of thing that I started to think 87 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: about the apocalyptic nature of things. There was also something 88 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: that happened in twenty eleven in Berkeley. This man predicted 89 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: the end of the world and all of these people 90 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: believed him and kind of like sold everything they had, 91 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: their retirement and everything for this man. And sadly, a 92 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: young person committed suicide because she believed that the end 93 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: of the world was going to happen. So I was 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: really not happy about this. My students were wanting to know, 95 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: is it going to be the end of the world, 96 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: And I was like, no, no, no, you know, this 97 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: has been happening for a long time, Like the end 98 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: of the world has been predicted so many times. It 99 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: hasn't happened, right, But I was still fascinated with apocalyptic narratives, 100 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: which are end of the world type narratives, that I 101 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: started to study those. And what happened was that I 102 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: found that a lot of people who had these apocalyptic 103 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: narratives were also what people call experiencers, people who experience 104 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: UFO events, And I thought that was confounding. So I 105 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: started to get into studying communities of people who were experiencers. 106 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I showed a friend of 107 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: mine my log of Catholic history anecdotes, you know, of 108 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: aero phenomena, and he said, this looks like UFOs, you know, 109 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: And I said, you're crazy, But you know, it all 110 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: came together for me one weekend when I attended a 111 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: conference on UFOs and I saw, I heard experiencers talk 112 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: about their experiences, and I realized, the patterns here are 113 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: so similar to the patterns from eight hundred years ago, 114 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: six hundred years ago, four hundred years ago, that this 115 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: is what I have to study now. And it started there. 116 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: That's interesting when you take a look at something like 117 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: that as a religious studies training religious studies, so are 118 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: you looking at it as there is you know, a 119 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: thing that's been happening through all these years, and it's 120 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: just people kind of interpret it differently based on sort 121 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: of their cultural you know, their cultural moment or their beliefs, 122 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: or is it that there's something in the human condition 123 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: that sort of manifests like this, And so you get 124 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: these different stories coming down through the year. Because I'm 125 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: sure you could go back further to Greek times or whatever, 126 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: where you know, they talk about God's being in the 127 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: skies and stuff like that. Like I understand that for 128 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: religious studies, you're kind of setting aside whether you know 129 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: the doctrine is real, you're but you're studying the doctrine itself. 130 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: Is that right? Am I? Right in that? 131 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? So the framework that I was trained in is 132 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: a framework that's actually changing and has changed. And I'm 133 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: one of the people that, well, I have to say 134 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: I have to change it because it doesn't that method 135 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: doesn't work here in this case. So the method is 136 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: this is that we're told to bracket our beliefs about 137 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: whatever we're studying. Say it's like apparitions of the Virgin 138 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: Mary or you know, things like that, and we're told 139 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: to study communities and social effects. But the truth of 140 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: the matter is kind of some we don't actually get into. 141 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: We don't say, well, these people are obviously constructed in 142 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: their own you know, they're embedded in their own religious frameworks, 143 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: so they're not going to see this for what it 144 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: actually is, which is like some kind of socio economic phenomena. 145 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: And that was how not necessarily. I feel like my 146 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: department at Syracuse University was better than that, Like they 147 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: understood that that there's something more than that, and I 148 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: think I stumbled upon the something more, and so I 149 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: had to kind of hammer out a methodology for studying 150 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: this stuff because frankly, when I studied Catholic history and 151 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: extraordinary types of things that happened in Catholic history, I 152 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: never had the kinds of things happened to me that 153 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: happened to me when I first studied UFOs. I had 154 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: people that were government affiliated come to me and want 155 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: to talk to me about what I was studying. Literally, 156 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: I had FBI agents wanting to talk with me, and 157 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: that never happened to me when I was doing this 158 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: other research. So obviously things are different in this field, right, 159 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: So you've got something that people are perceiving as transcendent 160 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: and they're having experiences of religion with it, right, spiritual experiences, 161 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: and you're also having government agencies fascinated with it. There 162 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: there will be a hearing next Tuesday about this. This 163 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: is May what May eleventh today? Yeah, so in a 164 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: couple of days, and it's a hearing on the reality 165 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: and security issues of aerial phenomena. Right, And that would 166 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: never happen in anybody else's except for you know, if 167 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: you study like other religions that are involved in there's 168 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: a lot of war that goes on with you know, 169 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: different religious interpretations. So it was a different kind of 170 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: way for me to study. And I'm still working that out. Actually, 171 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: I'm doing a lot of publication right now where I 172 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: am helping people in my field, people in anthropology, people 173 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: in the social sciences, try to understand what's going on. 174 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: And this is what I have so far. Okay, how 175 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: do we study something that appears to be transhistorical, Right, 176 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: So we're looking at something that most people would identify 177 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: with a certain time period, and most scholars identify the 178 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: rise of the UFO belief and practice and things like 179 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: that with the Cold War between Russia and the United 180 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: States starting in the nineteen thirties and forties, mostly started 181 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties, and they say, this is obviously 182 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: a Cold War kind of anxiety narrative. And at first, 183 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, Carl Jung, he's you know, he's kind of 184 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: the famous intellectual who you know, founded different types of 185 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: psychology like union and psychology. And he basically said the 186 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: same thing when he first started studying flying saucers and 187 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: the UFOs. Well, then what happened was similar to what 188 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: happened to me, was that a few people from the 189 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: government said to him military specifically, you need to come 190 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: look at some evidence, and so he did. He looked 191 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: at some evidence. After that he changed his perspective and 192 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: he said, I don't understand. He said, I think this 193 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: is an archetype, but it actually has physical components to it. 194 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: So he was also getting into this kind of you know, 195 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: what are we dealing with right now? So what I'm 196 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: working on now is this idea that it's this thing 197 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: called a myth theme. So it's a myth theme. So 198 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a meme myth. And what this 199 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: is is it is an idea that is way more 200 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: than a myth. Okay, So a myth is something that 201 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: a myth theme is thought to be kind of the 202 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: progenitor of the myth. So it's there's something that occurs, 203 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: like a story that keeps occurring, but the characters are 204 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: changing for different periods of time, but the story remains 205 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: the same. Right that there are these non human intelligences. 206 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: They interact with humans. Sometimes they give us things, like 207 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: Prometheus gave us technology, you know. So this looks like 208 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: that kind of a mythme. However, in this day and age, 209 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: we even have to change this idea of the mythme 210 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: because mythings except for the case of Prometheus, where we 211 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: actually do have fire, right, you know, and we did 212 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: have fire, but we didn't have any evidence that this 213 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:35,239 Speaker 1: Greek god or Titan gave us this fire. But here 214 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: in this day and age, we have some very strange 215 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: things that are happening. And so I start out with 216 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: that in the book American Cosmic, I read it a 217 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, and this so this is what 218 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: happened to me, And it's very much like a mythme. 219 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm just a kind of normal idiot human going about 220 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: my day, right, and then I start to study something 221 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: that I assume is just to myth and a lot 222 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: of people tell me it's not. Well, one person in particular, 223 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: who I call Tyler in my book, he works for 224 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: a space agency. He's a you know, Space Shuttle launch 225 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: mission controller, and so he tries to get in touch 226 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: with me through friends, and I'm thinking, you know, I'm 227 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: not sure I want to complicate my life like this, 228 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: but it's what I study, so it's kind of part 229 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: of my job. So finally, after about a year, I say, yo, okay, yeah, 230 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: let's talk. And he says this to me. He says, 231 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: you think that this is completely subjective, and he goes, 232 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: fair enough, but what if I told you that it's not? 233 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: And what if I give you evidence that it's not? 234 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: And I said, I'm open to that. And so he 235 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: suggested that we go to New Mexico to this place 236 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: where there's an alleged UFO crash. It's not Roswell, and 237 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: I said, I'll go, not thinking that, not understanding the 238 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: circumstances of going. So apparently it's this kind of secret 239 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: place under a no fly zone to wear a blindfold 240 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: going to it, and so I'm like, wait a minute, 241 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to take a friend. I'm not going by myself. 242 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: And so he said, hey, I had to get permission 243 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: for you to come, so it's either just you or 244 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: no one else. And you know, no one else can come. 245 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: And I said, no, I'm not going to go then, 246 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: And so I suggested who it now is known. It's 247 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: Gary Nolan. Gary Nolan is a professor at Stanford University 248 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: and he's a molecular biologist and he's really a well 249 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: known professor, just kind of like a superstar. And he's 250 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: also interested in UFOs, but from a different perspective than me. 251 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: And so we'd become, you know, pals. And I said, 252 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: I like to take Gary Nolan, and so Tyler. I 253 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: knew that Tyler would say yes because I think that 254 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: ultimately Tyler wanted to show us that there was actually 255 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: physical evidence of anomalist debris. And so Gary went and 256 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: I went, we did you know? We blindfolded, We got blindfolded. 257 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: We went to this place and we had these metal 258 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: detectors and you know, so this was how American Cosmic 259 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: opens up, and this was what I did, you know, 260 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: and then everything happens after that, these debris get analyzed. 261 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: You know a lot of things happen. I write American 262 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Cosmic I traveled to Rome to look at, you know, 263 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: things that are in the Vatican Secret Archive, even having 264 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: to do with New Mexico, strangely enough, things from like 265 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds. You can say that it was a 266 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: constant having my mind completely you know, regenerated, like every 267 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: month or so kind of like so Tyler was right, 268 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: Like I definitely shifted my perspective to realize that there 269 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: had to be a new way because something really interesting 270 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: is happening right now. 271 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: My conversation with Diana Pisolka will continue after the break. 272 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 2: I asked Diana Pisolka about the upcoming congressional hearing on 273 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: UFOs that was going to be held in May twenty 274 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: twenty two, shortly after this interview took place. 275 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: I think that what they're going to be talking about 276 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: is well, first off, do I think they're going to 277 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: be talking about the right things? That's a good question. 278 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: I think that there's something that's going on. If I 279 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: didn't have a historical perspective on this and actually see 280 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: these things in documents from two hundred years ago, three 281 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: hundred years ago, like I said, I would think that 282 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: this is some kind of weapon that's developed, like a 283 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: stealth weapon. Okay, but I do have that historical perspective, 284 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: so that complicates it for me, Like it'd be awesome 285 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: just to say put it in a and say, ah, 286 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: this is just another stealth weapon campaign kind of thing. 287 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: You know, we shouldn't know about it because we're civilians 288 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: and you know, they're just doing what they do the military. 289 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: But it's not that. Now, let's take this into context 290 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: since the nineteen forties, and it's you know, it's a 291 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: phenomena that's been around prior to the nineteen forties, but 292 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: it gets exacerbated in the nineteen forties. Why probably because 293 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: we're going all over into airspaces right where like we 294 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: developed the Air Force. I mean, the Air Force comes along, 295 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: and I believe it's nineteen forty seven too. I think 296 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: it's also as the CIA that comes along in nineteen 297 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: forty seven. So a lot of things happened at this 298 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: time is at a coincidence. So maybe before we weren't 299 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: flying around like two hundred years ago, we just saw 300 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: these things from the ground and had to develop an 301 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: interpretive framework for that. Well, now we're seeing them from 302 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: in the sky and sometimes in space. So the question 303 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: then becomes, well, this narrative has to change, right, because 304 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: we have more information, we have better tools to understand 305 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: this information. So we're in the very midst of reassessing 306 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: what this information is. And we don't have religions to 307 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: fall back on. Well, we actually do, but a lot 308 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: of people are not going to fall back on those 309 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: religions because we've been secular. You know, we have a 310 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: very secular society that more people well I would say 311 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: more people, but a lot of people who are not 312 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: religious are actually believers in UFOs. Okay, so you know, 313 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of this stuff going on. 314 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: I then asked Diana if she thought, from her perspective, 315 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 2: the right questions would be asked during the hearing. 316 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. And I was putting this in context of, 317 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, we've had a perception management campaign from the 318 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: nineteen well, let's see, when did it start. It started 319 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: right after the nineteen forties, right, and it went off. 320 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: It was Project Blue. 321 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: Book, right, right, so like forty seven, yeah, through sixty 322 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: a long time whatever. 323 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, and the people that were 324 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: involved in it, we have to forgive them now, but 325 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: we shouldn't forgive them if they still do this. So 326 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: the people that were involved in it, like Heineck. Alan Heineck, 327 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: he was he was a debunker, so his job was 328 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: to go debunk claims of UFOs and no one really 329 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: bought that, right, like the American public said, Ah, no way, 330 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: especially after the big Michigan UFO flat in the nineteen sixties. Okay, 331 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: So Heineck comes out and he even jokes, and he says, Okay, 332 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: I actually do believe that there's something here. I don't 333 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: know what it is, but we definitely need to study it. 334 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: Is what he basically comes out to say. All right, 335 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: So that's why we can forgive him is because he's 336 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: he's you know, gone back on what he did, which 337 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: is intentionally creating disinformation and discrediting witnesses uncle stuff. Now, 338 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: but maybe in context back then we can understand it. Okay, 339 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: So I give them a pass, but I don't give 340 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: people like Dodia pass. You know, at this point, we're 341 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: mature enough to deal with it, right, and so I 342 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: say that. You know, so these congressional hearings, let's put 343 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: these in the context of that. The attempted dupe campaign 344 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 1: has been going on for so many years. You know, 345 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: we have lots of witness reports from civilians, respectable credible 346 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: civilians and even air force personnel and people like that. 347 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: We have people like me who are you know, have 348 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: studied religion and know those languages of back in the 349 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: day and can translate those documents. So we do have 350 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: that as well, which we didn't actually think to have 351 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: back in the forties. Right, even though the Ellis were 352 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: doing out at the time, they were saying, wow, you know, 353 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: look at this kind of historical consistency. So I guess 354 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: my point is that let's not be afraid to open 355 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: it up to better study and also to you know, 356 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: these campaigns that have been going on, this misinformation campaign. 357 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: So I just questioned whether it's still happening, because it 358 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: happened back then, it's been happening for years and years. 359 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: And in fact, my book American Cosmic kind of like 360 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: broke it open too, even though I didn't need to. 361 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: I was I was hanging out with people who were 362 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: part of these programs, which at the time weren't acknowledged 363 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: to be programs. And then in twenty seventeen and eighteen, 364 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: and by the way, my book was already written at 365 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: this point, they came out and said these things are real, right, 366 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: and these programs are real. And I was like, wow, 367 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: I did that, but I was I didn't have any 368 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: help doing it, like you know, I kind of was 369 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: doing it on my own. So I had a comment 370 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: so can cous me. It's a parallel tradition of whatever 371 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: kind of disclosure they're doing right now. It was like 372 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: kind of a frankly, like a disclosure that was not 373 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: meant to be that's American cosmic. 374 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels to me when I was reading it, 375 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 2: like it's almost like, I guess you used the word 376 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: parallel that it seems like it's a little bit and 377 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: this is not this is only in a good way 378 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: removed from like a lot of the stuff that you 379 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: see is sort of more prominent. I think, yes, And 380 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why I thought it was 381 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 2: really interesting is because it it doesn't engage in any 382 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 2: of that stuff at all. It seems to be really 383 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: focused on on you know, a few individuals who are 384 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 2: you know, thinking about this in sort of interesting ways, 385 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: and then you're own thoughts And I guess you talk 386 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 2: a lot about jock La too. And I was just 387 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: trying to you know, when I was asking that question. 388 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: I was trying to think of some congressman from Nebraska 389 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: or something asking a question about material reality versus spiritual reality, 390 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: and like, how does that apply to the phenomenon that 391 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: to me seems seems like a really interesting question and 392 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: probably is getting more to it, more towards some kind 393 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: of understanding than what I assume they're going to talk about, 394 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 2: which is, you know, sort of more concrete things that 395 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 2: they think they have around, like the Nimts or whatever. 396 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: The tic TAC video. Congressional hearings aren't really set up 397 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: to deal with like the kind of really interesting stuff 398 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 2: that you have in your book, because you know, I 399 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: think a lot of their constituents would be just like, 400 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: what are you talking about? 401 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: Definitely, I think that if they do talk about religion, 402 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: it's going to be this way, because I've had some 403 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: ask me already, you know, will disclosure that extraterrestrials exist ruined, Like, 404 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: will they will completely you know, destabilize the religious traditions 405 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: of the world. That's their question, that's what they want 406 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: to know. And I always answer them no, because, you know, 407 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: contrary to what they think, people in religious traditions have 408 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: talked about extraterrestrials for a thousand years or more, like 409 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: they've been talking about, are their tribes on Venus? You know, 410 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: do people live on the moon? Like what kinds of 411 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: creatures are out there? They believe that their god, whoever 412 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: it is, you know, in the different religious traditions, is 413 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: big enough to have created all of these things. And 414 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: so the people who are actually religious have a category 415 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: within which they can put extraterrestrials. And I think it's 416 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: more secular people and especiallytually hardcore atheists that will like 417 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: be destabilized. So if they're worried about some groups of people, 418 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: those are the ones they should be worried about. 419 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 2: That's interesting. Why do you think it would destabilize atheists 420 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: in particular? 421 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: Because people in religion, practitioners of religion already believe in 422 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: things that are non human intelligences. They already had this category. 423 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: They've lived with it their whole lives. Right, they go 424 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: to synagogue, they go to temple, you know, they go 425 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: to wherever you know, church, and there they talk about 426 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: unseen realities, spiritual realities, things like that. Okay, atheists want 427 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: hardcore evidence. They want like a flying saucer to land 428 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: on the White House lawn, which it almost did, by 429 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: the way, in the nineteen fifty which I think is 430 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: really funny, you know, it's ironic. But that kind of thing, 431 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: I'm not sure they're going to get that. They're going 432 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: to get some stuff, some you know, realities like you know, 433 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: signatures and things like that, you know, radar signatures and 434 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: things like that, and they're going to get that. They're 435 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: also going to get a lot of reliable, credible witnesses 436 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: you've seen things as well, and apparently now they're going 437 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: to get peer reviewed research on weird anomalist debris. 438 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 2: So it's funny because I like, I'm an atheist, and 439 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: I would love to see the kind of evidence that 440 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: I could like take to a courtroom and like make 441 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: a case on, you know. And I never really thought 442 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: about the idea that, like having a more sort of 443 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: religious background in which you're willing to, I guess seriously 444 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: consider things that don't have that kind of evidence would 445 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: better prepare you for something like this. I've always kind 446 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: of thought of it as being, you know, so much, 447 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 2: at least in my understanding, I certainly would not you 448 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: know a lot more about this than I do, but 449 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 2: sort of the centrality of man to religion and that 450 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: we're man as man and God's image to the fact 451 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: that there are you know, aliens with huge heads and 452 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 2: little bodies and stuff. It's like, does that in some 453 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: way sort of undermine this idea that humans are specifically 454 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 2: God's chosen creatures or whatever? 455 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: Sure, Oh, if I can't actually address what you just 456 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: said about. 457 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: Religion, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. 458 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: Okay, So yeah, so what you just described is a 459 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: very I don't want it's a very typical way of 460 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: looking at religion. Right. So, you know, so atheists and 461 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: people who are agnostic and you know kind of like 462 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: just non religious people think of religious people as being 463 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: fairly superficial in what they believe to be their dogmas. Like, 464 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, man is created in the image of God 465 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: and by the ways, and if you go back to Genesis, 466 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: like we're talking about the Christian and Jewish tradition and 467 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: even you know, the Muslim tradition, it's there are two 468 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: creation stories in Genesis, and one of them is about 469 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: a female and a male, but the other one is 470 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: just about human creatures. So it's like non gendered human 471 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: creatures are non gender and God refers to God's self 472 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,239 Speaker 1: in the plural right, So once we start to and 473 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people who are religious, 474 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: so they're not in actuality as we paint them, right 475 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: as these people who just believe that these things are 476 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: the case, they have more nuanced ideas. And also I 477 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: think that we have to be careful about using the 478 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: Jewish Christian history and saying that religions have to look 479 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: like them, because look at Buddhism, you know, I mean 480 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: many denominations of Buddhism. They might have things called bodysphas 481 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: that look like saints or gods or something, but there 482 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: is no God. There's no idea of God in Buddhism. 483 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: It's a it's kind of a I wouldn't call it 484 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: an atheistic religion, but many people do is atheistic. So 485 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: there are different forms of religion. Even in Hinduism, you 486 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: have all kinds of different things there other than what 487 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: we I even hesitate to call those gods and goddesses. 488 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: I call them what Hindus call them devis and devas 489 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: you know, and things like that. They're just not what 490 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: Westerners ascribe to typical ideas of religion. 491 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: That's interesting. What haven't we talked about do you think 492 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: is really important for myself or people who listen to 493 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: kind of understand. 494 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: That's a good question. So I think one of the 495 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: things that I was most astonished by in my work, 496 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: and I lay it all out there, which is kind 497 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: of funny because I don't think it gets read. This 498 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: is it. It's that what we see in the media 499 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: about the phenomena is not what this phenomena is like 500 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: in reality. Okay, So if you're a field researcher and 501 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: you go and you you go to people who've had 502 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: these experiences or see these experiences, you go hang out 503 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: and watch like the you know, and talk to people 504 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: where there have been multiple witnesses and things like that, 505 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: it gets I mean there. I have specific examples of 506 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: how this gets changed, and I'll share with you one example. 507 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: This is called you know, mofon the Mutual UFO Network. 508 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: And okay, so this is an organization that's not federal, 509 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: it's privately funded, and it's like a database of where 510 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: you can go and if you see a UFO or 511 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: something like that, or you know, have a UFO event 512 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: or experience, you can tell them what you know. There's 513 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 1: a place where you can input your information, and if 514 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: they find it interesting, they're going to come out there 515 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: with field researchers and they're going to talk to you 516 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: about it and get in for in data, take pictures. 517 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: If there are any like sample weird things, they're going 518 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: to take those two and they're going to do an 519 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: analysis of that. 520 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: Right. 521 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: Well, a lot of people that I know and I 522 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: put two. I put one in my book. Maybe I 523 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: put two in my book, but at least I put 524 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: one in my book. Where is Ray Hernandez's account where 525 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: he basically input his experience into a Moufon database. And 526 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: I'm not saying all Moffon people know this or know 527 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: that they're party to this, but they are. What happens 528 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: is that that experience goes into the database and Moufon 529 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: had a contract with Hangar one, which is the media 530 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: production company, and they take those experiences and they completely 531 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: change them. And we're talking about what was a good 532 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: experience becomes a really scary experience that people then consume 533 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: in the media. Okay, So I want to put some 534 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: information out there that people can what do you call it, 535 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: connect the dots? Okay. After Project Blue Book, Alan Heinek 536 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: leaves Project blue Book and he found kufos right. The 537 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: Center for the Study of UFO is very much like 538 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: Moufon kind of the same template and what Moufon is 539 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: in my interpretation and excuse me Moufon, And I know 540 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: not all Moufon people are like, are doing this like that? 541 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: I know lots of good field researchers, but these you know, 542 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: this is a database that's taking all of this information 543 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: and then we have to you know, why is it 544 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: being changed and then repackaged for the public consumption? I 545 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: want to know, and I want to know it looks 546 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: like misinformation. Are they doing it just for money? I 547 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: don't think so, because I think that a really happy 548 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: UFO experience event would also bring you know, people would 549 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: still be interested in watching that. So the questions, I 550 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: think these are the kinds of questions that they should 551 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: be asking at the congressional here they won't be asking 552 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: these questions. That's why we have researchers who are now, 553 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: by the way, because of the recent acknowledgment by the 554 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: government in June that UFOs were you know, small percentage 555 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: were unknown. Do you know how many researchers now are like. 556 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: What I'm talking about is people like me, only like younger, 557 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: you know, twenty years younger, and are now emboldened to 558 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: do this research. And they're all coming out with their 559 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: own research and their own you know, ways of looking 560 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: into this and things are going to change. 561 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 2: Is there funding now available for that? 562 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: There is funding available for that. Yeah, So you know 563 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: there's first off, you have to understand that people who 564 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: are like assistant professors, they want to get published and 565 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: they have to get published in order to stay professors basically, 566 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: So they're going through and there's what's called a pure 567 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: review process where other academics who they don't know are 568 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: looking at their work and assessing whether or not it's 569 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 1: well done enough to be published. And that's what's happening 570 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: right now to a lot of people like me and 571 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: Gary Nolan and people that kind of did this without 572 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: any kind of support. You know, we did it because 573 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: that's where our data took us. And you know, I 574 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: was scoffed a lot, frankly in you know, before anything 575 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: came out, before twenty seventeen. But I was already a 576 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: full professor and chair of my department, so I wasn't 577 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: worried about being scoffed at. But I didn't enjoy it, 578 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: you know. But so those young people weren't inclined to 579 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: do this kind of research because they wouldn't get tenure, 580 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: they would not keep their jobs and things like that. 581 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: And things have changed now, So I think the whole 582 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: landscape of research is going to change. So maybe in 583 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: ten years at the congressional hearings, we'll be hearing from 584 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: academics about it. 585 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 2: Strangeer Rivals is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 586 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 2: Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was hosted by Toby 587 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 2: Ball and produced by Rima El Kayali, Jesse Funk, and 588 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: Noemi Griffin, with executive producers Alexander Williams, Matt Frederick, and 589 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: Aaron Manke, and supervising producer Josh Thain. Learn more about 590 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: the show at Grimminmile dot com. Slash Strange Arrivals and 591 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: find more podcasts from iHeartRadio by visiting the iHeartRadio app, 592 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.