1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last hours of 2 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: bombshell in the Brian Coburger case. We are now learning 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: all the details about search warrants executed in the case 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: of four slain students. I mean, see Grace, this is 5 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: Fox Station and Serious XM one eleven. These items have 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: been under sealed for sixty days, but now we are 8 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: getting a look at what police have been sitting on 9 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: this entire time, so much they couldn't tell us, but 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: now we know. Take a listen to our friends at WNEP. 11 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Those search warrants were placed under a sixty days seal 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: by a judge in Monroe County. Those sixty days are 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: now up, and two new search warrants were released today 14 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: detailing exactly what investigators took from Coburger's parents' home in 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: Chestnut Hill Township and from his Hyundai Elantra. According to 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: court paperwork, more than sixty items were seized from the 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: home in the Poconos. Among the items were a knife, gun, 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: a cell phone, black gloves, and a mask. Officers also 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: took clothing, shoes, and personal notes. Guys, we are understanding 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: that Pennsylvania police have released a full list regarding an 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: unsealed warrant, including items taken from a pre dawn raid. 22 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: Do you guys remember that? Because I sure do. Take 23 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: a listen to our cut three. Our friends at WPVI 24 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Courts unsealed the warrants today, showing the first glimpses 25 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: of what investigators took from Brian Coburger's Pocono area home 26 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: during the search on December twenty ninth. According to the 27 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: search warrant receipt, the items seized were medical style gloves, clothing, 28 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: a pair of black and white size thirteen Nike shoes, 29 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: and also a swab of Coburger's DNA. The search warrant itself, 30 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: all thirty one pages, is extensive and approved this long 31 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: list of items to be seized, including everything from blood 32 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: and bodily fluids to data on smart devices, to his 33 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: car and shoes since a footprint was found at the scene, knives, 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: a gun, ammunition, books, a laptop, a cell phone, a 35 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: quote note from Brian to Dad, and so much more. 36 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Taken from the home mean that pre dawn raid with 37 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of what 38 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: we know right now. But first to Cheryl McCollum, founder 39 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and crime 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: scene expert. She's a star of a new hit podcast, 41 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Zone seven. Cheryl, what have you learned from the disclosure 42 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: of the search warrant return on coburger? Well, they got 43 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: a flashlight, They've got some chemical resistant gloves. They took 44 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: things that like a book where he underlines some things 45 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: on page one eighteen. But of course I'm dying to 46 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: know what that book is and what he underlines. They 47 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: also got things from his vehicle, specifically the gas pedal 48 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: and the break, the floormats, the head rest, the seatbelt decision. 49 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: I think again, they are placing victim centered items at 50 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: his parents home, in his vehicle, and at his apartment. 51 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: So if you look at the things that they took, 52 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: it appears to me that those search warrants were very 53 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: targeted and very directed. Police also seems a shovel from 54 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: the accused killers white Hyundai Elantra, ziplock bags, hiking boots, 55 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: and a wrench. We know they also this is Pennsylvania. 56 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: Police removed car seats, a door panel, and the brake 57 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: and gas pedals from the vehicle for testing too, and 58 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: obviously to ye. Chris mcdonnah joining me from the interview 59 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: room on YouTube. Former homicide detective has handled well over 60 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: three hundred homicides. Clearly, they believe that the night of 61 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: the murders, when Coburger allegedly left the murder scene, which 62 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: is extremely bloody, he had blood on his tennis shoes, 63 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: and when he touched the brake or the gas pedal, 64 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: he left behind the victim's blood DNA. That's gotta be 65 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: what they're doing. Chris mcdonna, absolutely natcy, and so they're 66 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: trying to connect that vehicle obviously to Brian and then 67 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: back to the crimechene. And the other interesting thing they 68 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: took out of the car is the sheetbelt, and you 69 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: know they're obviously they're looking for any type of blood 70 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: forensics evidence withinside of that car. They also grabbed a vacuum, 71 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: a Craftsman HVAC in the garage at the residence, which 72 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: I'm assuming he's going to correlate back to the surveillance 73 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: they had him under while he was cleaning the vehicle. 74 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: You know what's interesting with me is Dale Carson, high 75 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, but also a former fed 76 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: with the FBI. Dale Carson, it's great to have the 77 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: three of you on. You know where I am right now. 78 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm sitting right outside the Colleton County Courthouse where we've 79 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: been listening to closing arguments in the Alex Murdi case. 80 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: And I heard the sled. South Carolina Law Enforcement Division 81 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: reamed a new rear end because listen to this, Dale. 82 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: They seized a shirt Murdog was wearing. They looked at 83 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: it and they thought we'd better test it for blood. 84 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: They thought there were possibly microscopic spots of blood spatter. Well, 85 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: it turned out it was a blood spatter. And today 86 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: inclosing arguments, the defense had a field day arguing that 87 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: the state had somehow hidden evidence by not producing the shirt. 88 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: But it didn't have any blood on it, it had 89 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: no evidentiary value. The point I'm getting at Del Carson 90 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: is we here in this case, the Coburger case, cops 91 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: took the Craftsman HVAC. They took a note from Brian 92 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: to Dad, they took a wrench, They took all sorts 93 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: of items. But if they didn't take them, they would 94 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: be damned. And if they do take them and they 95 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: are not of evidentiary or probitive value. They will also 96 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: be damned. I mean, there's really no way out for 97 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: law enforcement. Well, the list I looked at Nancy wish 98 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: By an old LEFTBI agent and it's handwritten. There's no 99 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: technology involved in that. That means somebody sat down, as 100 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: should happen in a good crime scene investigation, logged everything, 101 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: and is responsible for everything. Quite frankly, if you get 102 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,119 Speaker 1: the opportunity to conduct a search for a post murders home, 103 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: you want to get everything you can possibly pick up, 104 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: which is obviously one of the critical alleged failings of SLED. 105 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: But here we've got the vacuum cleaner, we've got stuff 106 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: from the car, We've got a hand done that may 107 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: be connected to an unsolved homicide. We've got stubble that 108 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: have been used to bury people in his home area 109 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: instead of way out in Idaho. So there's a whole 110 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: lot more that the investigators are going to be able 111 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: to identify and determine based on what they seized during 112 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: these searches. Well, I agree with all that, but del Carson, 113 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: you did a really have you had professional dance classes? 114 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: Because you just take a right out of my question. 115 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. The cops are damned if they do, and 116 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: they're damned if they don't. If they get evidence that 117 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: turns out not to be probitive, they get reamed out 118 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: a trial. If they don't get the evidence, they are skewared. 119 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: So better air on the side of caution and take 120 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: everything that could remotely be involved in the case and 121 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: then sort it out later. Always, Nathy, you and I 122 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: have both been standing at a crime scene where we 123 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: decided we're going to take something, not because we know 124 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: how it relates to this crime, but we might know 125 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: how it relates later. If something is odd, if something 126 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: doesn't belong or doesn't fit in a scene, I'm taking it. 127 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: If there's something that looks like this could be a 128 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: note This book with some underlying words could mean something later. 129 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: You know, the seatbelt may have DNA on it. I'm 130 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: taking everything. Hey, you know you just reminded me of 131 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: he just Cheryl reminded me of Brian Laundry and his idealistic, 132 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: self absorbed musings and his notebook after he murdered Gabby Petita, 133 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: and that actually revealed a lot. And at the time 134 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: you could hear Nay say or say oh, you took 135 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: his private notebook that was personal. It was a confession 136 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. So people are going to argue about 137 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: the note from Brian to dad, Brian Coburger to his father, 138 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: But we don't know what that note says, and we 139 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: don't know what could be read into that note. So 140 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: I agree with you, Cheryl went in doubt. You have 141 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: to seize everything sorted out later and then just take 142 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: the hits in the courtroom. Guys, for those people that 143 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: are just kind writing samples that it creates, there are 144 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: all sorts of reasons to have even a modest like 145 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: that to make a determination later that it's a really 146 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: good thought. Dale Carson, Now, I don't know of any 147 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: note that is connected to this case, but we have 148 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: very little understanding of all the evidence, the treasure trope 149 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: of evidence that the state has managed to marshal to 150 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: this point. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace for those of 151 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: you who just joining us in the last hours. A 152 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: search want and more importantly it's return. A search want 153 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: is an affidavit that is normally sworn to under oath 154 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: in front of a judge or magistrate by a cop, 155 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: a detective, an undercover. It could be a number of 156 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: people within law enforcement that tells a judge why that 157 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: cop believes a certain car, warehouse, home trunk container should 158 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: be searched. The judge either agrees or disagrees. The cop 159 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: has to put forth PC probable cause that the search 160 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: is reasonable, a reasonable let's just say, invasion, and to 161 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: the target's Fourth Amendment right to privacy. After you do 162 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: the search, After the search is conducted, someone on the 163 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: investigative team will fill like a search return. In other words, 164 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: what if anything was seized and it must be meticulously listed. 165 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: In the last hours, we get a return on a 166 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: pre dawn raid on the Brian Coburger family home in 167 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: the Poconos. The return three knives, a shovel, a handgun, 168 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: a black ski mask among the evidence taken from Coburger's 169 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: parents home and from his white Hyundai his Elantra. Cheryl McCollum, 170 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: what more do we know, Nancy? We also have evidence 171 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: of a leafy green substance. They of course, they would 172 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: make you think marijuana. They took hiking boots, they took 173 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: tire irons, they took goggles, they took all kinds of 174 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: things that looks like he would be wearing something, you know, 175 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: as he's disposing of evidence. They even took band aids. 176 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: So again, if he was harmed in any way and 177 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: was bleeding less, say one of the victims scrapped him 178 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: as they were fighting back, because we knew they had 179 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: defensive wounds and he maybe took care of, you know, 180 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: his injuries in some way. They even took the room 181 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: key from the comfort end. They've got his car registration, 182 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: of course, they've got the note and all that sort 183 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: of thing. They took a phone charger, so they to me, 184 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: the list of items suggest again that they are painting 185 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: a picture. They know exactly what he did in the 186 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: order that he did it, and they're going to be 187 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: able to lay this evidence out at trial for the 188 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: jury to see. These are maps. You and I talked 189 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: about maps from day one, and I try to tell 190 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: everybody this is a professional stalker. He will not just 191 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: have information on his phone. He will have information in 192 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 1: notebooks and up on the and maps. Is one of 193 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: the things that I keyed in on because this guy 194 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: like just like somebody planning a wedding. You have all 195 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: the stuff in a diary, You've got things on the calendar, 196 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: you've got magazines you're saving. He did the same type 197 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: of thing. He could tell you all about these young people. 198 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: He not only stalked them twelve times before the murder, 199 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: but he went back to the scene of the crime afterwards. Cheryl, 200 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: we also want his search history on the Internet and 201 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: on his phone. Amen. Absolutely, On Cheryl, you mentioned a 202 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: key to a hotel room. Explained, well, that's gonna again 203 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: be something that they're going to be able to show 204 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: the jury where he was, why he was there, and 205 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: why it's critical that he kept that key. They're gonna 206 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: show all of that and something else, Nancy, that everybody 207 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: needs to understand. If you charge your phone inside your car, 208 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: your car has a black box, and when you plug 209 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: that charger straight into your car, everything on your cell 210 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: phone go to that car's black box. So even if 211 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: he were to throw that phone in the Atlantic Ocean, 212 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: we would be able to get the information straight off 213 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: the phone. Hey, guys, take a listen to our cut one. 214 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: This is Jillian Melee at wp v I. A lot 215 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: of new information came down this morning when it comes 216 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: to the murder of those four University of Idaho students. 217 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: All of this as though search warrants were unsealed for 218 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: both Brian Koperger's white honde a Landra and his parents 219 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: home in all Brightsville. A knife, a glock twenty two 220 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: forty caliber handgun with three empty magazines, a pocket knife, 221 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: black face, masks and gloves, numerous articles of dark clothing 222 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: and criminology books are among a laundry list of items 223 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: detective seas from the Pocono area home on Lambstone Drive. 224 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: That's not all I want to hear the rest, Jack, 225 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: if you could play our cut too. Also from w 226 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: p VII, the affidavit released in late December described what 227 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: police discovered when they entered the Idaho home after the murders. 228 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: A tan leather knife sheath was found laying on the 229 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: bed next to two of the victims. The surviving roommate 230 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: described seeing a figure dressed in all black clothing and 231 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: a mask, adding that they were athletically built with bushy eyebrows. Now, 232 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: what we also learned today from those newly unsealed documents 233 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: is that in that white junde Elan Trump detectives found 234 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: a number of things, some of which include gloves, boots, 235 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: and a shovel. They also seized numerous parts of the 236 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: vehicle itself, including the brake, pedal, gas pedal, and more. Okay, 237 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum, Dale Carson, and Chris mcdonnah with me analyzing 238 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: this return that we have just gotten our mits on. 239 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: I'm looking directly at the police return and if you 240 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: would look at number twenty one of the items they 241 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: retrieved new balanced shoes, what do you make of that, 242 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh, Well, of course they're looking for any kind 243 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: of connection to the crown scene. If there's a blood 244 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: track that is individually identifiable, meaning there's a cut in 245 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: one of the freads, it's identical to that too, then 246 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: they've got a direct connection to the crime scene. Was 247 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: that Dale or Chris? That was Dale? But the great 248 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: answer they're looking they're looking for that diamond pattern Nancy 249 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: out in front of the surviving victim's store. And if 250 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: we go down all sort of item forty four that 251 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: they collected a motherboard. They hit up a motherboard, which is, 252 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, for obvious reason to remember his under undergraduate 253 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: studies is you know, technology. But I find number forty 254 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: five very interesting Washington State University paperwork just out of curiosity. 255 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: What's everybody think. I think they're trying to establish a 256 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: timeline by looking at that paperwork as when he could 257 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: have had his earliest contact, potentially our contact point with 258 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: these victims. You know that's because the actual printers today 259 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: store that data, so you could find out specific typically 260 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: when it erupted out of the computer. Okay, that's really smart. 261 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: I didn't realize. I guess I knew, but I hadn't 262 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: taken into account that a printer maintains the information that 263 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: it printed. Is that what you're saying. Yeah, so the 264 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: Russians used to take our printers and take them home 265 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: and download all the data off of our printers. We 266 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: had to be very careful with that, that' said. Let's 267 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: talk about world politics later. I want to get back 268 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: to this return when you mentioned earlier, I think it 269 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: was Chris, or it may have been del Carson. Item 270 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: forty four, the motherboard. Why do you find that specifically 271 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: to be of interest? I found that interesting, Nancy, because 272 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: of a couple of things. One, if there is still 273 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: stored data on that and he would have been aware 274 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: of that post homicide, then of course he would have 275 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: removed that motherboard out of you know, maybe a hard 276 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: drive and or type of you know, some type of 277 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: frame inside of his apartment, maybe right in the in 278 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 1: the computers that they removed. So he may have taken 279 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: that because and left it in his car. So it 280 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: may have come from the apartment in Washington or in 281 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: the university and ended up in his car in Pennsylvania. 282 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: The fact that it's in there tells us they are 283 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: looking for a digital footprint that he may have been 284 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: trying to conceal. Christ For people that don't know what 285 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: that is, if they're not a computer geek, they may 286 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: not know what is a motherboard? Yeah, well, a motherboard 287 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: is it holds you know, all the pieces the running 288 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: parts of the computer. Ie, it's the brains of the computer, 289 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: the non bott memory. Out of this yip exactly, Cheryl mccollin, 290 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: did you did you say number fifty seven Taylor cutlery 291 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: knife with sheaths. I'm clothes in laundry baskets. They're looking 292 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: for DNA, They're looking for blood that may still be 293 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: on the clothing even though it may have been washed. 294 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean practically every line is something significant, Every single 295 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: item is significant because again, you're showing the jury potential 296 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: jury later on that he's got a propensity for these 297 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: types of knives that are in leather sheets. That's unusual. 298 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: You're also showing the item of clothing that the victim describes. 299 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: You've got it. And again going back to the shoes. Yes, 300 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: they're looking for the pattern on the bottom obviously, but 301 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: they're also looking for when he changed clothes and change shoes. 302 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: The news shoes could also have blood on them from 303 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: the floorboard and the brake pedal and the gas pedal 304 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: they're painting a picture of. It's quite obvious what they're 305 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: looking for. Cheryl, that is some good thinking. Even if 306 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: he changed shoes, then nieze shoes could have picked up 307 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: those blood particles left transferred from the old shoes onto 308 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: the gas pedal and the brake pedal. Guys, there's more. 309 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: Take a list to our cut number six our friends 310 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: at NBC. In a previous search of Coleburger's apartment in 311 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: Washington State, investigators also gathered possible hair strands, chemical resistant gloves, 312 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: items that had red and brown stains, and a computer tower. 313 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: In December, Colburger had driven home with his father to 314 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania from Washington State University, where he was pursuing his 315 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: PhD in criminal justice. On that trip, the pair were 316 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: pulled over twice in Indiana weeks before the arrest. Today, 317 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: they were driving a white hounday a Lantra, the same 318 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: type of car police say was captured on surveillance video 319 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: near the scene of the murders, Coburger's school, less than 320 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: ten miles from the University of Idaho. I also find 321 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: interesting that police seize a black mask, which is not 322 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: dissimilar to the black ski mask described by the surviving 323 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: roommate who saw the killer leaving wearing a mask. Now, 324 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious a black mask, if it's a ski mask, 325 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: would it have covered up? I'm just trying to figure out. 326 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: Did she say he had bushey eyebrows, But the eyebrows 327 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: would have shone through a ski mask? Right, everybody here 328 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: in the studio, that's basically you, Sydney is shaking. No, no, no, 329 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: But a ski mask has eye openings. Does anybody else agree? 330 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: I know you're listening. Don't ski mask have yes? Everybody 331 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: but you, Sydney. So she you know, Cheryl, I had 332 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: in my mind when she said a mask, I thought 333 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: she meant a COVID mask. That was my first thought. 334 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: But I'm seeing here they seized a black ski mask, well, 335 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: not dissimilar to the black ski masks described by the roommate. 336 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: How did you take it, Cheryl? What did you What 337 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: type of mask did you think the killer was wearing. 338 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: I thought it was a mask like you would wear 339 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: to rob a bank, so a ski mask. And what 340 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: I'm getting now from the list that y'all are talking 341 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,479 Speaker 1: about the goggles. Would that have been something that he 342 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: would have warned to stop the blood spatter from getting 343 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: in his eyes? You know, you scare me sometimes, Cheryl McCollum, 344 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're on the right side of the law. 345 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: Go ahead, dal there's no report that he used goggles, 346 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: and certainly the girl who did seem at the sight 347 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: of the killings didn't mention that. But of course again 348 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: they took them. They're on the list, and I'm just 349 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: saying that is unusual enough that now my injurance is 350 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: piqued about those goggles. Yeah, okay, let me think about that. 351 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: Chris McDonough. From what we know, what we've been told 352 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: so far, all the intel we've gotten, do you believe 353 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: the killer was wearing goggles? Protective goggles? I never picked 354 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: that up. But they're seizing goggles here's so obviously think 355 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: they think there's a chance. There's always a possibility, but 356 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: it's probably improbable, Nancy. I mean, I think Cheryl Dale 357 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: and I would all agree with you that this guy 358 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: was so sophisticated. Remember we keep going back to how 359 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: mechanical he was. And if you look at item number 360 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: fifty seven for an example, I can't read what they 361 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: I think it's says Taylor, and it says knife with 362 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: leather sheath. So they are this search warrant tells us 363 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of things about, you know, what they're 364 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: specifically going after. They have a sheath at a scene. 365 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: So now they're trying to correlate is this a habit 366 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: pattern of this guy? You know, to continue by knives 367 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: with sheets. And then if we look at some of 368 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: the knives that they collected, the Smith and Wesson knife 369 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: for an example. I went and did a little research 370 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: before the program today and they have fixed blade knives 371 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: as well. And so I think what this is telling me, 372 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: and I'd be curious to hear what Charondale think about it. 373 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: Are they trying to correlate this guy's behavior in relationship 374 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: to these knives as a whole. And if so, you know, 375 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: does it differ from the type of sheath that was 376 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: left at the crime scene, because that's going to be 377 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: exactly what I was wondering. What if Chris mcdonnaugh the 378 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: sheath that they are taking out of his Poconos, his 379 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: parents Pocono home, or his car. We have a tailor. 380 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: It looks like tay l o. R. Cutlery knife with 381 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: leather sheath. What if it's the same type of sheath 382 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: that was found in the murder Saint. I mean, that 383 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: would be pretty damning in my mind. I mean, what's 384 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: the likelihood that this guy has the same exact sheath 385 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: a knife or the same knife. I mean, we never 386 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: located the knife. We don't know that specifically what it is, 387 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: so it could be the very same type of NiFe. 388 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: This goes back and what I was saying before. You 389 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: don't always know why it fits yet, but you take 390 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: it anyway. This could very well be something that's got 391 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: biological evidence from another victim. And that way, when they're 392 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: asked in court, did you ever look for additional victim, 393 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: they can say yes, we did. We tested other knives 394 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: that could have been used in other homicide. You know, 395 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: when you said you were interested about the flashlight, I 396 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: am too. Was the flashlight that is this the flashlight 397 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: that was used the Knight of the murders? And if so, 398 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: is there any biological material still on it? I mean, Cheryl, 399 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: you have to look at an item like a flashlight 400 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: under a microscope to see if anything is in a 401 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: groove or you know, the on off button. They could 402 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: be there without him realizing it's still there. That's right. 403 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: And even if he's wearing those gloves, Nancy, he would 404 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: have had to put that flashlight somewhere else while he 405 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: committed the murders. Once he was inside, and when he 406 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: touched it again and moved it again. You're talking about 407 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: the lock card principle times five. I mean, it's overwhelming, 408 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: all the transferring that's going to be going on with 409 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: all of this evidence, the blood, you know, sweat and 410 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: different things that are going to be on not just 411 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: the sheets, not just the sheets, not just the victims, 412 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: not the perpetrator, not just his car, but everywhere you're 413 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: gonna see evidence of those victims. Inside his apartment, you're 414 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: gonna see evidence of those four victims inside his parents home. 415 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a standard that we all look for. 416 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: Another thing on that list, it talks about fiber. A 417 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: small fiber is on that list. That's the real key 418 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: to me. They did that deep of a search when 419 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: they served, Hey, Jackie, let's hear our friends at NBCA 420 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: and cut six one more time. I want to focus 421 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: on these hair strands. In a previous search of Coleburger's 422 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: apartment in Washington State, investigators also gathered possible hair strands, 423 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: chemical resistant gloves, items that had red and brown stains, 424 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: and a computer tower. In December, Colburger had driven home 425 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: with his father to Pennsylvania from Washington State University, where 426 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: he was pursuing his PhD in criminal justice. On that trip, 427 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: the pair were pulled over twice in Indiana weeks before 428 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: the arrest. Today, they were driving a white Hunday Alantra, 429 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: the same type of car police say was captured on 430 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: surveillance video near the scene of the murders. Coburger's school 431 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: less than ten miles from the University of Idaho. Prime 432 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. In a previous search of Coburger's 433 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: apartment in Washington State, investigators also gathered possible hair strands, 434 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: chemical resistant gloves, items that had red and brown stains, 435 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: and a computer tower. In December, Coleburger had driven home 436 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: with his father to Pennsylvania from Washington State University, where 437 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: he was pursuing his PhD in criminal justice. On that trip, 438 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: the pair were pulled over twice in Indiana weeks before 439 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: the arrest. Hi'll do today. They were driving a white 440 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: Hunday a Lantra, the same type of car police say 441 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: was captured on surveillance video near the scene of the murders. 442 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: Coburger's school less than ten miles from the University of 443 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: Idaho Del Carson. If even one of the hairs found 444 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: in Kyburger's apartment match one of these four victims or 445 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: the victim's dog, it's over as far as I'm concerned. 446 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 1: That's direct connection. And let me go back to the 447 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: mask issue, because I had access in Ted Bundy's pillings 448 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: to a lot of his own personally hand drawn sketches 449 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: of himself. He'd sit in front of a mirror and 450 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: drawing himself with his disguises on. If Cooburger was into 451 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: these sort of selial killers, white white, white, white I 452 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: gotta let that so, Ken, what did you just say 453 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy dressing up in outfits and drawing pictures 454 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: of himself. That's exactly right. He would sit in front 455 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: of a mirror and hand sketch himself with a mask 456 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: on his arm and a sling so he could get 457 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: a feel for how he looked. And certainly Coburger would 458 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: have had access to things like that. I don't know 459 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: whether he had particular sketches, but we know he emulates 460 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: people connected with these kinds of crimes, and we know that, 461 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: so it's quite possible that he would take that mask 462 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: and the other the knife and those sorts of things 463 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: and play with them in front of a mirror so 464 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: he could look at himself to behave that way. And 465 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: that's where photographs become so important, the phone usage in 466 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: the ram memory of that computer motherboard that we're talking about, 467 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: to see whether he actually displayed himself. I mean, we 468 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: know from the sex crimes point of view, and I 469 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: realized that he's not been charged with that, but from 470 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: that perspective, these individuals achieved satisfaction from looking at themselves 471 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: and how impressive they think they look. With that narcissistic angle. Okay, 472 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: you know what, I kind of blacked out when you 473 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: said Ted Bundy would dress up in different outfits and 474 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: then draw pictures of himself. Cheryl McCollum, what would you 475 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: think if you walked in on your husband and he 476 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: had some outfit on and he was drawing pictures of himself. 477 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: Why does it add me my husband? Why can't it 478 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: be David? Because I'm thinking on you right now drawing 479 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: pictures of himself. Listen, here's the bottom line. I think 480 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: what the point Dell is making for me is it 481 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: does so level of ego that is obviously concerning, but 482 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: it also points to what you can glean from these 483 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: searches there. They should be looking for sketch books, They 484 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: should be looking for things on his phone. They should 485 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: be looking for items that he bought two yeah, how 486 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: many times? And I'll bring the guys in on this too, 487 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: Del Carson, Chris McDonagh. But first to you, Cheryl McCollum, 488 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: how many times do you believe Brian Coberger put on 489 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,479 Speaker 1: his outfit that he was gonna wear the night of 490 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: the murders and checked it and looked in the mirror. Oh, 491 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: what I think Keiths thought about it. I think hes 492 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: fantasized about it. I think he put it on and 493 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: all repeatedly. I think he might have even timed himself 494 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: how fast he could get it on and get it 495 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: off because he knew he was going to have to 496 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: change clothes. No doubt in my mind. That's magic Carol 497 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: for you. You get it girls, Okay, del Carson, I 498 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: know you somehow have to work sex into every single 499 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: possible topic. You even worked it into a scenario of 500 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: walking into the grocery store and on one side of 501 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: the wedding magazines on the other side of the penthouse. 502 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: But go ahead, I'm ready. How many times do you 503 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: think Coburger, if in fact he's guilty, tried on his outfit. 504 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: It's like a girl in the dressing room with those 505 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: mirrors that are all around, looking at herself from every angle. Well, 506 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: our wives do this all the time. They sit in 507 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: front of a mirror and they put on a disguise. Right, 508 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: I didn't say that, by the way, I'm telling So 509 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: this is about his image of himself. Chris McDonough, he 510 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: was playing a part. After all of his interviews with 511 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: all of these convicted felons, about what did you feel 512 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: at the time of the crime, how did you pick 513 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: out your victim? How did you exit the scene? All 514 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: of his questions. He's living vicariously through this, through these 515 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: other criminals, and then his image of himself committing these crimes. 516 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: He fulfilled his fantasy. You are a thousand percent right, Nancie. 517 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: And and you know that's his right, that's his super 518 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: egal right. That's it speaking there. And if we look 519 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: on the search warrant when Dale mentioned the drawing, look 520 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: at item number thirty four. I can't make out what 521 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: the third word word is, but it shows something, Okay, 522 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: no problem. A man's oh my goodness, a man something 523 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: drawing exactly word drawing. I can't A man's hand drawling 524 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: its hand. Yeah, I could see that. I could see 525 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: hand drawing of what. Oh okay, this is scary. That's 526 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: fitting in exactly what you said about Bundy. You know, 527 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: everything I look at is a connection back to the murders. Guys. 528 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: There's medical documents, there's a craftsman's I guess that's the HVAC. 529 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: There's the note from him to his father. Everything can 530 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: be related back. So what are they doing right now? 531 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: Cheryl with all of the evidence. We now know that 532 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: they have seized Nancy. They are putting it in their 533 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: war room on separate tables, and they are painting a 534 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 1: picture with every item what would pre impose what was doing. 535 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: And they're gonna again, They're gonna tell the story with 536 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: every object. It's not enough to say, oh, we've got 537 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,959 Speaker 1: this type of knife in a sheath. They're gonna tell 538 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: the story. Why this night, Why a leather sheet, Why 539 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: would he drop it and leave it behind? Why the 540 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: blood in the floor mats, Why these tennis shoes have 541 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of biological evidence in the groove, but 542 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: it's not the same pattern that we fall in the snow. 543 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: They're going to be able to do that. We do 544 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: it all the time. You're one of the best I've 545 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: ever seen at it. But you know what you and 546 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: I would do if this was our case, we would 547 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 1: be in that war room. We would touch every single 548 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: item and put it in story forms, starting with once 549 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: upon a time I'm just looking at They even took 550 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: not only did they take the brake pedal, the gas pedal, 551 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: They took the floor mats, used water bottles, a reflective vest. 552 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: They took the seatbelt, boot. Explain that Dell Carson the 553 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: seat belt boot, but interpret to mean the area from 554 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: which the seat belt. Seatbelt pulls out where it retracts 555 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: is what you want, because anywhere near the shoulder where 556 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: you're gonna have blood spatter if the knife we went 557 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: down like we suspect that it did, and any of 558 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: that area he could not have remembered to clean. Now. Remember, 559 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: you know they've taken the vacuum cleaner. He probably used 560 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: that to shop back to clean out his car. So 561 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: they'll take that filter. They'll look for any my hair's 562 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: fiber DNA connected with the crime seat. They'll do the 563 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: same thing with a seat belt. It just makes it 564 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: easier to get to something other than going to a 565 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: vacuum cleaner. Hey, I just had a thought. You know 566 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 1: what you said about the seat belt. When it says 567 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: seatbelt boot, I thought that meant they storage area in 568 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: your car you pull the seatbelt out off. But now 569 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's you know, Cheryl, when you reach up 570 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,959 Speaker 1: and you grab that part of the seat belt where 571 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: there's usually a lot of some sort and you pull 572 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: it down. That reminds me of a light switch. So 573 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: often criminals forget to clean the light switch, and that's 574 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: like on a seatbelt. You grab it and you pull 575 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: it over. That'd be a perfect place to get a 576 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 1: blood transfer. It's a brilliant place. Let me take something 577 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: else that leads off the page to me that they 578 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: took out of the hun day. They took seven quarters 579 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: thirty six times thirty two nickels and eight pennies. He 580 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: didn't clean that money, and I bet you there's biological 581 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: evidence on them. I wonder if you had to go 582 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: through any tolls along the way. Aren't there a lot 583 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: of tolls going from there from his apartment at Washington 584 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: State University all the way across the country to the Poconos. 585 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: They had to go through tolls to use that change, 586 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: get it and touch it. Yeah, I agree with you. 587 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: By then he would have already been showered and cleaned, 588 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: and it wouldn't matter. He did not have to use 589 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 1: at all the night of the murders to get back 590 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: to his apartment. I'm driven at myself. It's no time 591 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: at all. If you're the supervisor, you look at your 592 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: agent and you say, take everything you possibly can out 593 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: of that car, don't leave anything. And so that's the 594 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: way that system works because once you have access to 595 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 1: it and you got to change a custody, you can't 596 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: go back later. And as to Cheryl's point, you know, 597 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: that's why you collect everything that you can, everything that 598 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: you see, everything that you can possibly imagine. And it 599 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: involves technical stuff, taking out ceiling tiles, looking in bathroom toilets, 600 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: you know, all those kinds of things necessary in the 601 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: function of good crime searches, and we're not seeing that today. 602 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: People have referred to technology. They think everything's just technical 603 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: and the old traditional investigative techniques have been lost with 604 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: my generation. You know, I'm glad to see that they 605 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: took the power cable Chris McDonough because we know he 606 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: had his phone turned on at a certain point when 607 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: he leaves the crime scene, according to police, and he 608 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: is just anal compulsive enough. You know what, Cheryl, My 609 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: husband David can have power at ninety nine percent on 610 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: his phone, but the first thing he does when he 611 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: gets in the car is plugs of the power cable. 612 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same and 613 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: they got the power cable. Yeah, we are creatures of habit, 614 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: There's no doubt. And again this tells about his personality. 615 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: He is not going to let that phone drain out. 616 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: And that's why it's interesting when the phone goes to 617 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: airplane mode and is shut off just a couple of 618 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: periods of time, and you and I hammer all the time, 619 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,479 Speaker 1: pattern patterns, patterns. He doesn't do that any other time. 620 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 1: Going backwards for months and months and month, he never 621 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: does that. Guys, we know of three knives, a shovel, handgun, 622 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: black ski mask among the many many items seized. The 623 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: search warrant in the last hours relating to the Coburger 624 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: quadruple murder case has been unsealed. We wait as justice unfolds. 625 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: Thank you to my three incredible guests, Cheryl McCollum, Dale Carson, 626 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, and thank you to you for being with us. 627 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:25,479 Speaker 1: Goodbye friend,