WEBVTT - The Real Killer Season 2: Ep. 4, Duck Your Head and Full Speed Ahead 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:06.240 A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:10.280 that may be disturbing to some listeners. The door was 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:16.439 open for me to become an informant. Months before Keith 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.280 Lamar is indicted for killing five men during the Lucasville Uprising, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.920 he says he's given an opportunity to work with investigators, 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:30.160 an opportunity he has no interest in taking. I told him, 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.520 get the fuck out of my face, the investigator saying 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.040 to me, you could you know, like, are you insane? 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.480 This is a sweetheart deal. I s a sweetheart deals 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.559 from innocent. If you're gonna sept this deal, I'm here 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:45.120 to tell you that we're going to put your black 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.199 ass on death. Bro I want a trial, You want 0:00:49.200 --> 0:01:01.840 to trial, We're gonna give you a trial. I'm Leah Rothman. 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.759 This is the Real Killer. Episode four, Duck your Head 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:17.840 and Full Speed Ahead. In nineteen ninety four, Keith is 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.360 charged with nine counts of aggravated murder for the deaths 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:27.080 of Darryl Dipina, Albert Steano, William Savetti, Bruce Vitali, and 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.080 Dennis Weaver. His attorneys will have around nine months to 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:38.080 prepare for trial. You believed in Keith's innocence. Yes, yes, 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.760 I still do. That's Hermann Carson, one of Keith's nineteen 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.600 ninety five trial lawyers. I wonder what Bob Toy, Keith's 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.360 other trial attorney, thinks, or if he ever asked Keith 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.080 if he did it. You know, when I deal with 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.960 a criminal case, I look at the evidence that the 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.960 prosecutor has. Can they prove this case beyond a reason? 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.880 Will down? I don't ask my clients are by guilty. 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:07.040 I quite frankly don't give a shit. I get why Bob, 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.799 as a defense attorney, didn't ask, but I'm not Bob. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.160 So I'm just going to ask you, did you kill 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:19.000 Dennis Weaver? No? I did? Did you kill Darryl Dpina? No? 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.679 I did did you kill Albert Steano? No? I did? 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:29.520 Did you kill William Sabetti? No? Did you kill Bruce Vatali? No? 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.520 I can imagine what you're thinking. I shouldn't have to 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.520 answer that. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.120 be asked these questions. Of course, it's fair if we're 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.600 trying to lab It's the only way to lap the 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.040 US to ask these hard questions. I've dildn't have spend 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.280 a months up from day one. Keith answers my questions. 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.880 Now I'm going to answer one of his. When I 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.600 visited Keith, he asked me to look into the possibility 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.560 the men he's accused of killing were not actually snitches 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.799 but child molesters and rapists, because if they were, then 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.040 what maybe that would point to a different motive for 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.400 why they were murdered, or maybe the snitches label was 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.880 simply concocted so they would appear more sympathetic to jurors. 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.520 And look, there's no way for me to really find 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.680 out if they were snitches or not. But I was 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:23.400 able to find their criminal records. So a couple of 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:30.480 them had kidnapping and rape charges, but for the most 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:37.040 part they were like murder, felonious assault, arson, robbery. There 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:41.680 was one one guy who hold on my look, there 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:47.840 was one guy who was at Lucasville for kidnapping and rape. 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.760 That was in nineteen eighty three, and he had been 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.880 charged with raping a twelve year old and a nineteen 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.240 year old back in nineteen seventy seven. I'm not sure 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.200 if he was convicted. I just saw that he was charged. 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:06.680 So what do you make of that, well, no less speculation. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.000 You know. The thing that always struck me about the 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.960 narrative is that, you know, the state said today were stitches, 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:18.159 and everybody just ran with that, you know, because if they, 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:23.240 if their actual record was introduced, maybe it were prejudice 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.359 to jury against you know, caring or having sympathy for 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.320 them that they had lost their lives in this real 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:35.039 hogrific way. I just don't want to accept without question 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.520 anything the state has to say in terms of narrative 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:47.599 and framing the situation. You know, there's someone else who 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.440 might be able to shed some light on this. Former 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:55.840 Lucasville Warden, Arthur Tate. Do you know if the guys, 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:02.560 the inmates who were killed, were they snitches? I don't know. Savetti, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.560 I would say absolutely not now, And this is what 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.920 I was told about Savetti. And I don't know if 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.039 this is true. I don't know if you've heard a 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.320 story similar or contrary or whatever, but Savetti, I mean 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.320 I knew him personally. He's an older gentleman. He walked 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.520 with a walker, and anytime that he saw me in 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.440 the hallway, he would chase me down and he had 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.320 something to bit to me about The information that I 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:33.960 got was that when the offenders that got the keys, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:39.200 they were African American guys, and they started keying the 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.000 console and his door popped open, and he came out 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.239 and saw them at the console and made the comment 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.359 what are you in guys using the in word what 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.040 are you doing? And they went right down killed him. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.799 That's the word I got. That's how he got killed. 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.200 I don't believe he was a snitch. But there were 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:05.520 a couple inmates that were involved in the snitch game 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:10.160 that were killed. I can't recall their names. So maybe 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.440 William Savetti wasn't a snitch, but maybe some of the 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.960 others were. I don't think we'll ever know. I'm not 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.159 even sure it matters. It doesn't change anything for Keith. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.320 In the months leading up to Keith's trial, one of 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.080 Bob and Hermann's first orders of business is to get 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.480 it moved from Sciota County, where Lucasville is located, to 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:38.359 somewhere less potentially prejudicial. Here's Bob. We asked for a 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.320 change of venue and it was granted, although granting it 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.719 by moving into the next county where most of the 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:49.919 people work and Lucasville are associated with it didn't really 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:54.200 help much. The trial will be held thirty eight miles 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.000 from Lucasville in Ironton, Ohio. That's in Lawrence County, the 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.720 most southern county in the state of Ohio. The demographics 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:06.040 there are similar to Sciota County, well over ninety percent white. 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.560 Presiding over the case will be Judge Fred Crowe, the 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.640 third Judge. Crowe was fifty years old at the time 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:17.200 of the trial. Today he's seventy seven and retired. I 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.000 talked with him over zoom. Did you in your years 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.680 of being a judge have a certain reputation? Yeah, I 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:29.160 kind of did. I actually had a song about hanging 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.840 Judge Crew. That was the song, and that was a 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.120 reputation along most of the attorneys I knew. I was 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:41.280 a strong advocate for law enforcement. Hanging Judge Crowe like 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.720 hanging people or what would do? It was a colony 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:50.120 dive song A friend of mine Root. Judge Fred Crowe 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.040 comes from a long line of law and order. His 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:57.600 grandfather was a judge, his dad an FBI agent. Keith's attorney, 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:01.600 Bob Toy knows Judge Crowe well. He's argued many cases 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.520 in front of him over the years he's something else. 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:11.000 He was definitely pro prosecution. There's no question about it. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.520 It's very simple in Judge Crowe's court. When you get convicted, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.000 you're going to get the max from him, and you're 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.360 going to get the death penalty. That's just like a given. 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.160 So if the prosecutor gives you an offer and you 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.760 have a bad case, you might want to take it. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.600 The prosecutors who will be presenting the states case are 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:35.840 Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson. They were aggressive prosecutors. They 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.520 come from Hamilton County. It's a tough county to commit 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.360 a crime in. They were very aggressive. They were smart. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.600 So the teams are in place, the venue is set, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.840 but before they can get to jury selection, there are 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:56.239 the pre trial motions, lots of them, mostly surrounding discovery, 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.280 what evidence the prosecution has and what the defense wants 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.240 them to hand over. This is going to be a 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.800 real sticking point in Keith's case. Here's Hermann, Well, we 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.560 were asking for what's called Brady material, anything that's favorable 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.760 or exculpatory to the defendant they're required to turn over 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:21.040 to the defense, and said anything basically contradicted the state's theory. 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:22.800 Of the case, and of course they weren't going to 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.800 give that to us. And just to be clear, did 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:30.600 you have access to the Ohio State Highway Patrol's database 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.480 of interviews? No? Did the prosecution. Oh yeah, they had 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:40.520 everything integrated. So there presumably are thousands and thousands and 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:47.360 thousands of pages of interviews transcripts that you were never given. Correct. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.120 In episode two, I talked with Kenneth Marshall from the 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.280 Ohio State Highway Patrol. He estimated the number of interviews 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.880 they conducted was around twelve hundred, which is a lot 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.240 of interviews. I actually got my hands on the index, 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:07.000 and while yes, they were around twelve thirteen hundred interviews conducted, 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.920 what's more surprising to me is how many times people 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.720 were interviewed. Some are interviewed once, some twice, some are 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.320 interviewed five, six, eight times. There's one guy who's interviewed 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:22.520 eleven times and another who's interviewed twelve times. How did 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.080 that strike you that these men were interviewed so many times. Well, 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.000 I've seen ones where they have had multiple interviews, nothing 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:34.040 like this scope. But you know, this whole situation is 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.839 about as non standard as it comes the scope of 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.800 the area where things happen, the number of individuals that 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.760 could be directly or indirectly or just peripherally involved. You know, 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.520 there's just nothing comparable to this case in my experience. 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.600 Here's Bob, this was not a normal case. This was 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:01.960 the case where all the politicians were involved. This was 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.120 the primary case in the statable while and it rose 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.920 to that level because of the unfortunate death of mister Vallanahan, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.520 who was the guard there that had nothing to do 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:18.000 with keys case. After the uprising, around fifty people are 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.240 charged with crimes like murder, attempted murder, and assault. Five 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.800 are capital murder cases, meaning they're facing the death penalty, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.680 Keith being one of them. He is charged with killing 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.400 more people than anyone else during the uprising, and he's 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.319 the only one facing the death penalty for killing only prisoners. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.080 The other four death penalty cases surround the murders of 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:46.520 a few prisoners and officer Robert Valandingham. Back to Bob 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.800 and Hermann, they believe they're getting the constant run around 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.440 from the prosecutors and Judge Crow when it comes to 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.400 their repeated requests for exculpatory evidence. Then a few weeks 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.560 before the start of the trial, prosecutors over to the 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.520 defense a list of forty three prisoners names and eleven 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:10.880 pages of statements summaries containing potentially favorable evidence. But there's 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:15.440 a major hitch. Prosecutors won't match up the names with 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.240 the statements. It will be up to Bob and Hermann 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.840 to try to figure out who said what. So the 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:28.199 prosecution said, basically, we promised these guys anonymity, and that's 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.640 why we can't match up the statements with the names. 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.439 That's total horseshit, outrageous. I mean, that's ridiculous. It would 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:42.880 never be allowed today. It's now June twelfth, nineteen ninety five, 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.960 the first day of jury selection. Before the potential jurors 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.640 are brought into the courtroom, prosecutors offer Keith a plea deal. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:57.000 When Keith gave the final no to negotiated resolution, as 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.560 I walked out at conference room to tell the judge 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.960 and esecutor and we had the jury sitting out there 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.520 getting right to jury selection. It's probably the worst feeling 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.440 I've ever had in my stomach because I didn't know 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.600 if I could save Keith's life. That must have been well, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.360 I say, I've never felt that it's the worst I've 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.640 ever felt. Did you give Keith any sort of pep talk? 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:35.520 Duck your head and full speed ahead. What was going 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:39.959 to be the biggest challenge in representing Keith to try 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.840 to find jurors who didn't automatically when they heard Lucasville 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:49.880 say guilty. That's herman Carson. He and his co consul 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:54.000 Bob Toy, along with prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson, 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:59.400 spend several days interviewing potential jurors. After two black jurors 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:04.720 are used, they settled on ten women and two men. Well, 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.720 the jury was all white, mostly high school graduates, you know, 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.880 working class. I say, just a typical rural county jury. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.679 Here's Bob Toy. Keith is sitting next to me, and 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.280 he looked at me and Bob, I was supposed to 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.720 have a jury of my peers. And I looked around 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.120 the room. I saw the white judge, I saw his 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.720 white lawyers. I saw the white prosecutor, saw the white jurors, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.040 and I said, oh, Keith, baby, this is it. It's terrible. 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.360 Here's Judge Fred Crowe. Back then, there was several big 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:45.120 issues about blacks being excluded for whatever. Basically, the prosecutors 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.920 had to have a reasonable excuse a black jury. I 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.440 don't remember how many black jurors or were, if any, 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.640 I can't do there weren't any. It was an all 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.120 white jurry. Okay, So now I know, or now I 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.400 remember Arts County to be like other counties down there, 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.040 the percentage of blacks stuff that. Man. I mean, yeah, 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.440 well a man, I want to tell you so sure, 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.160 and not on anybody's business. But I just got off 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.920 while I was on the phone when you called. I 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:22.720 was I had a half back on blackball team high 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.480 school ball team who was black. Was just called and 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:29.400 told me he's getting divorced and he's seventy eight years old. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:43.040 So at least I had one black Frank. It's June twentieth, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.640 nineteen ninety five. The jury is seated, the prosecution begins 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.160 their case. The first witness they call is Sergeant Howard Hudson, 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.560 one of the investigators with the Ohio State Highway Patrol. 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.560 According to the trial transcripts, Sergeant Hudson testified that as 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.520 part of their initial search and processing of the crime scene, 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.160 they were around seventy five hundred photographs taken and over 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.720 twenty thousand pieces of evidence collected. When asked if any 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.840 of the physical evidence collected pointed to Keith Lamar, Sergeant 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.320 Hudson says, quote, there was no evidence that came back 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:24.400 conclusive that pointed to anybody. The evidence was largely contaminated. 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.800 Sergeant Hudson also says that after a certain number of 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.960 people were interviewed, he along with others, decided to charge 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:37.120 Keith Lamar with these killings. I remember a sergeant Hudson 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.080 I called sergeant zero because he had zero evidence. A 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.920 nice guy, but they really had no evidence besides a 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:48.520 bunch of snitches against Keith. It's just that simple. So 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:53.080 with no physical evidence, Bob and Hermann say, the prosecution's 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.960 case hinges on the testimony of fellow prisoners. What did 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.160 all of those witnesses have in common? Well, they had 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.560 done or participated to some level in the riot and 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.080 weren't being prosecuted for it. Two of them maybe did 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.159 have some minor charges filed, but no ways near what 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:18.000 they did. According to the trial transcripts, some witnesses receive 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.800 lesser sentences. It seems one witness is charged with the 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:26.520 murder than those charges are dropped and another witness is 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.040 never charged at all, although he admits a taking part 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.600 in at least one of the killings, one of the 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.720 same Keith is on trial for. It was people who 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:41.160 were paid to testify, paid by getting lesser sentence and 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.960 acquiring their testimony. That's what happened. Nevertheless, there are five 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.840 men who testify that Keith was involved in the L 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:54.120 six murders, All described in varying degrees of detail, how 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.000 Keith ordered and in some cases took part in the 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.159 killings of the so called snitches with the help of 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.159 his death squad. One of those death squad members is 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.960 Lewis Jones, also one of the prosecution's star witnesses. On 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.639 the stand, Lewis Jones claims when he, Keith and another 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.159 guy went inside L Block to check on their belongings 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.080 and then got stuck there, Keith came up with the 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.800 idea of how they could get back out to the yard. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:25.359 I ask Keith about this. It was Jones testified that 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.320 you turned to him and said, hey, there's no point 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.560 in us being caught up in this. Let's kill the 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.000 snitches and then we can leave. It doesn't follow logically, 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.919 you know, Let's we don't want to have anything to 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.080 do with the ride, So let's kill people and so 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.520 we can be implicated in the ride. You know, that's 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.560 another thing too. If if I was responsible for the five, 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:53.080 that's why let me leave, because somebody we're going to 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.840 will be, you know, left hole in the back. You know, 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.120 we're gonna let you kill these five people, and we're 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.920 going to let you leave, you know, because when at 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.880 some point this had to come to the end. They 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.959 wasn't intended for the riot to last forever. So at 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:11.000 some point somebody got an answer for these deaths. So 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.040 why let the guy who's responsible these deaths just get 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.200 up to walk out and leave, to leave us having 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:22.320 to explain? Yeah, you know, but none of those questions 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:28.240 were asked, None of those none of the subscripancies were 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:33.240 put to the jewelry. According to that Ohio State Highway 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:38.200 Patrol Index of Interviews, Lewis Jones was interviewed eleven times 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.159 after his initial statement. He was moved to another prison 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.320 closer to his family in Cleveland, and although Lewis Jones 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.439 admitted to taking part in at least one of the killings, 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.800 Jones was never indicted for anything that happened during the 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.919 uprising and is now out of prison. I'd like to 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.920 hear Jones's version of events, and have tried to track 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:05.840 him down with no luck. Next on the stand are 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.639 three men who were in that K block cell where 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:13.760 Dennis Weaver was murdered. They all say, again in varying 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.000 degrees of detail, that Keith accused Weaver of being a snitch. 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:23.600 Then Keith ordered for Weaver to be killed. Michael Childers, 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.399 one of the men who helped choke Weaver to death, 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.240 testifies that Keith threatened his life if he didn't jump 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.600 in and helped finish the job. On the stand, Childers 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:41.399 calls Keith quote an animal. On cross examination, Childers is 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.399 asked about a letter he wrote to prison officials not 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.920 long after the uprising, in which he said the FBI 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.560 had implanted a mini microphone under his scalp back in 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:55.880 nineteen eighty six. Childers verse says he doesn't recall the letter, 0:20:56.320 --> 0:21:02.560 then he denies it altogether. Here's Herman Well. I praise 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.960 as serious questions as a competency and the veracity of 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.960 what weight can you give to somebody who believes that 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.119 he's had a chip in playing in his brain and 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.760 people are talking to him through it or communicating with 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:20.639 him through that. As part of his plea deal, Michael 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.520 children Is pleads guilty to involuntary manslaughter and is sentenced 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.439 five to twenty five years to run concurrent with the 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.879 one he was already serving, meaning no time is added 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:35.240 to a sentence. It seems Childrens is no longer incarcerated. 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.280 I've reached out to who I believe is him, but 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.000 have yet to hear back. Were any of the state's 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:50.440 witnesses believable? Not in my opinion particularly, I mean, yeah, 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.240 they just weren't in my opinion. I mean the death squad. 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.520 Initially nobody's identifying him, and all of a sudden they're 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:02.200 identifying him. Felt that they were lying, and they had 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:09.200 plenty of incentive to lie. I wonder what Judge Crowe 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.639 thinks about that. It seemed like most, if not all, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:18.840 of the prosecution's witnesses got some sort of deal for 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.160 cooperating with the state, So that's probably true. I mean 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.560 that most of them did get something at all. That 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:30.320 happens all the time. Doesn't that muddy the waters? It does, 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.760 But most prosecutors will tell the jury we don't find 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:38.720 our witnesses in church, we find them in prison. And 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:43.720 that's very much true. If you eliminate the scumbags testimony 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.359 against all the scumbags, you would have a hard time 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:55.080 convicted anybody because they prosecutors don't choose their witness After all, 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:59.560 the prisoner witnesses testify. Prosecutors call a Louisville captain and 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:04.040 correct officer, an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper, and two 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:08.840 pathologists who performed the autopsies on the victims. Once again, 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:12.119 we can't forget the victims in all this. I'm sure 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.720 there are family members and friends out there who are 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:21.360 still grieving their loss. Although strangely, according to Keith, Herman, 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:26.600 Bob and Judge Crowe, none of the victims family members 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:31.080 ever came to court during that trial. There wasn't one 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.399 representative of any of those deceased inmates that shared up 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:38.879 That struck me as pretty odd. Nobody cared about the 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:58.160 five guys who got kids. The prosecution rests their case 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:03.040 on June twenty seventh. That afternoon, the defense begins presenting theirs. 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:07.119 They call four inmates who testify, in the early hours 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.200 of the uprising, they saw Keith out on the wreck yard. 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.280 The times varied, but they said he was out there 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.600 and he looked normal. One witness is asked if there 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:20.400 was blood or dirt on Keith. He says no. Then 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:24.240 they call William Gino Washington. He was in that K 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.840 block cell and witnessed the murder of Dennis Weaver. He 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:31.560 testifies that Keith had nothing to do with Dennis Weaver's death. 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:39.119 Then a bombshell drops during cross examination, Prosecutor Bill Anderson 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.800 says they have an audiotaped interview with Gino Washington that 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:48.520 contradicts his entire testimony. Here's Keith's defense attorney Herman Carson. 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:53.840 Excuse my language, but Bill Anderson was so excited, I 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:57.840 thought he was going to piss himself. Judge Crowe asks 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:00.679 for the jury to leave the courtroom. Then the roughly 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:04.280 twenty minute tape is played. On that tape and it's 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:08.160 all in the trial transcripts. Gino Washington is heard saying, 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:13.200 Keith and another guy ordered Dennis Weaver's murder. What were 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.280 you feeling and experiencing when you realize that they had 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:20.159 an interview that was basically impeaching your witness, Well, that 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:24.960 was fundamentally unfair they should have disclosed that he had 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:28.200 been listed as a witness back then. I believe their 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:31.240 view is, oh, we didn't know it's going to be exculpatory, 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:35.480 you know, and which my views, that's a bunch of bullshit. 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.920 When the jury is brought back in, the prosecutor asks 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:44.640 Gino Washington about this. Washington says, in that taped interview, 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:47.560 investigators at the time we're trying to make him point 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:50.440 the finger at Keith and the other guy. He says, 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:52.920 he lied and told them what they wanted to hear, 0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:56.040 because at the time, Gino was scheduled to appear in 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:58.960 front of the parole board, and investigators told him that 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:03.040 they wouldn't let him go until he was quote off investigation. 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:08.439 And today in court he says he's now telling the truth. 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:17.080 And here's another thing I find curious. William Bowling, the 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:20.720 main guy who strangled Dennis Weaver, never took the stand 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:25.080 for the prosecution or the defense. Remember, the state says 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:30.040 that Keith made William Bowling kill Dennis Weaver. So it 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:32.119 seems like it would have been a no brainer on 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:34.600 the part of the prosecution to have him take the 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.800 stand and point the finger at Keith. Right, So why 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:43.160 didn't they call him? Maybe the prosecution thought they didn't 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:47.399 need his testimony, or maybe they learned something that made 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:54.520 calling him to risky and could jeopardize their case. Back 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:59.280 to Gina Washington. After he testifies, the defense calls their 0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:05.080 last witness to the stand, Keith Lamar. I decided earlone, 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:07.399 I was going to take the stand, something that I 0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:10.840 was advised not to do by everybody, you know, but 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.640 I was determined to participate in every aspect of this process. 0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:20.640 Here's Keith's defense attorney, Bob Toy. I believe that by 0:27:20.720 --> 0:27:25.560 calling him it was not going to hurt his case. Okay, 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:30.280 it usually does, but we had a client who was 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:35.920 very unusual in reference to being articulate, intelligent. We thought 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:39.200 he could handle cross examination, and he did as best 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:42.040 he could. We were hoping it would help, could be 0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:46.320 a last measure of just presenting a human being to 0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:54.240 a jury. On the stand, Keith maintains his innocence. He 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:56.399 says he had nothing to do with the killings in 0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:59.720 L Block and in K Block. He admits to Lyne 0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:03.040 to investigators that he was asleep when Dennis Weaver was killed, 0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:06.159