Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. The door was
Speaker 1: open for me to become an informant. Months before Keith
Speaker 1: Lamar is indicted for killing five men during the Lucasville Uprising,
Speaker 1: he says he's given an opportunity to work with investigators,
Speaker 1: an opportunity he has no interest in taking. I told him,
Speaker 1: get the fuck out of my face, the investigator saying
Speaker 1: to me, you could you know, like, are you insane?
Speaker 1: This is a sweetheart deal. I s a sweetheart deals
Speaker 1: from innocent. If you're gonna sept this deal, I'm here
Speaker 1: to tell you that we're going to put your black
Speaker 1: ass on death. Bro I want a trial, You want
Speaker 1: to trial, We're gonna give you a trial. I'm Leah Rothman.
Speaker 1: This is the Real Killer. Episode four, Duck your Head
Speaker 1: and Full Speed Ahead. In nineteen ninety four, Keith is
Speaker 1: charged with nine counts of aggravated murder for the deaths
Speaker 1: of Darryl Dipina, Albert Steano, William Savetti, Bruce Vitali, and
Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver. His attorneys will have around nine months to
Speaker 1: prepare for trial. You believed in Keith's innocence. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I still do. That's Hermann Carson, one of Keith's nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety five trial lawyers. I wonder what Bob Toy, Keith's
Speaker 1: other trial attorney, thinks, or if he ever asked Keith
Speaker 1: if he did it. You know, when I deal with
Speaker 1: a criminal case, I look at the evidence that the
Speaker 1: prosecutor has. Can they prove this case beyond a reason?
Speaker 1: Will down? I don't ask my clients are by guilty.
Speaker 1: I quite frankly don't give a shit. I get why Bob,
Speaker 1: as a defense attorney, didn't ask, but I'm not Bob.
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to ask you, did you kill
Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver? No? I did? Did you kill Darryl Dpina? No?
Speaker 1: I did did you kill Albert Steano? No? I did?
Speaker 1: Did you kill William Sabetti? No? Did you kill Bruce Vatali? No?
Speaker 1: I can imagine what you're thinking. I shouldn't have to
Speaker 1: answer that. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to
Speaker 1: be asked these questions. Of course, it's fair if we're
Speaker 1: trying to lab It's the only way to lap the
Speaker 1: US to ask these hard questions. I've dildn't have spend
Speaker 1: a months up from day one. Keith answers my questions.
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to answer one of his. When I
Speaker 1: visited Keith, he asked me to look into the possibility
Speaker 1: the men he's accused of killing were not actually snitches
Speaker 1: but child molesters and rapists, because if they were, then
Speaker 1: what maybe that would point to a different motive for
Speaker 1: why they were murdered, or maybe the snitches label was
Speaker 1: simply concocted so they would appear more sympathetic to jurors.
Speaker 1: And look, there's no way for me to really find
Speaker 1: out if they were snitches or not. But I was
Speaker 1: able to find their criminal records. So a couple of
Speaker 1: them had kidnapping and rape charges, but for the most
Speaker 1: part they were like murder, felonious assault, arson, robbery. There
Speaker 1: was one one guy who hold on my look, there
Speaker 1: was one guy who was at Lucasville for kidnapping and rape.
Speaker 1: That was in nineteen eighty three, and he had been
Speaker 1: charged with raping a twelve year old and a nineteen
Speaker 1: year old back in nineteen seventy seven. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if he was convicted. I just saw that he was charged.
Speaker 1: So what do you make of that, well, no less speculation.
Speaker 1: You know. The thing that always struck me about the
Speaker 1: narrative is that, you know, the state said today were stitches,
Speaker 1: and everybody just ran with that, you know, because if they,
Speaker 1: if their actual record was introduced, maybe it were prejudice
Speaker 1: to jury against you know, caring or having sympathy for
Speaker 1: them that they had lost their lives in this real
Speaker 1: hogrific way. I just don't want to accept without question
Speaker 1: anything the state has to say in terms of narrative
Speaker 1: and framing the situation. You know, there's someone else who
Speaker 1: might be able to shed some light on this. Former
Speaker 1: Lucasville Warden, Arthur Tate. Do you know if the guys,
Speaker 1: the inmates who were killed, were they snitches? I don't know. Savetti,
Speaker 1: I would say absolutely not now, And this is what
Speaker 1: I was told about Savetti. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: this is true. I don't know if you've heard a
Speaker 1: story similar or contrary or whatever, but Savetti, I mean
Speaker 1: I knew him personally. He's an older gentleman. He walked
Speaker 1: with a walker, and anytime that he saw me in
Speaker 1: the hallway, he would chase me down and he had
Speaker 1: something to bit to me about The information that I
Speaker 1: got was that when the offenders that got the keys,
Speaker 1: they were African American guys, and they started keying the
Speaker 1: console and his door popped open, and he came out
Speaker 1: and saw them at the console and made the comment
Speaker 1: what are you in guys using the in word what
Speaker 1: are you doing? And they went right down killed him.
Speaker 1: That's the word I got. That's how he got killed.
Speaker 1: I don't believe he was a snitch. But there were
Speaker 1: a couple inmates that were involved in the snitch game
Speaker 1: that were killed. I can't recall their names. So maybe
Speaker 1: William Savetti wasn't a snitch, but maybe some of the
Speaker 1: others were. I don't think we'll ever know. I'm not
Speaker 1: even sure it matters. It doesn't change anything for Keith.
Speaker 1: In the months leading up to Keith's trial, one of
Speaker 1: Bob and Hermann's first orders of business is to get
Speaker 1: it moved from Sciota County, where Lucasville is located, to
Speaker 1: somewhere less potentially prejudicial. Here's Bob. We asked for a
Speaker 1: change of venue and it was granted, although granting it
Speaker 1: by moving into the next county where most of the
Speaker 1: people work and Lucasville are associated with it didn't really
Speaker 1: help much. The trial will be held thirty eight miles
Speaker 1: from Lucasville in Ironton, Ohio. That's in Lawrence County, the
Speaker 1: most southern county in the state of Ohio. The demographics
Speaker 1: there are similar to Sciota County, well over ninety percent white.
Speaker 1: Presiding over the case will be Judge Fred Crowe, the
Speaker 1: third Judge. Crowe was fifty years old at the time
Speaker 1: of the trial. Today he's seventy seven and retired. I
Speaker 1: talked with him over zoom. Did you in your years
Speaker 1: of being a judge have a certain reputation? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: kind of did. I actually had a song about hanging
Speaker 1: Judge Crew. That was the song, and that was a
Speaker 1: reputation along most of the attorneys I knew. I was
Speaker 1: a strong advocate for law enforcement. Hanging Judge Crowe like
Speaker 1: hanging people or what would do? It was a colony
Speaker 1: dive song A friend of mine Root. Judge Fred Crowe
Speaker 1: comes from a long line of law and order. His
Speaker 1: grandfather was a judge, his dad an FBI agent. Keith's attorney,
Speaker 1: Bob Toy knows Judge Crowe well. He's argued many cases
Speaker 1: in front of him over the years he's something else.
Speaker 1: He was definitely pro prosecution. There's no question about it.
Speaker 1: It's very simple in Judge Crowe's court. When you get convicted,
Speaker 1: you're going to get the max from him, and you're
Speaker 1: going to get the death penalty. That's just like a given.
Speaker 1: So if the prosecutor gives you an offer and you
Speaker 1: have a bad case, you might want to take it.
Speaker 1: The prosecutors who will be presenting the states case are
Speaker 1: Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson. They were aggressive prosecutors. They
Speaker 1: come from Hamilton County. It's a tough county to commit
Speaker 1: a crime in. They were very aggressive. They were smart.
Speaker 1: So the teams are in place, the venue is set,
Speaker 1: but before they can get to jury selection, there are
Speaker 1: the pre trial motions, lots of them, mostly surrounding discovery,
Speaker 1: what evidence the prosecution has and what the defense wants
Speaker 1: them to hand over. This is going to be a
Speaker 1: real sticking point in Keith's case. Here's Hermann, Well, we
Speaker 1: were asking for what's called Brady material, anything that's favorable
Speaker 1: or exculpatory to the defendant they're required to turn over
Speaker 1: to the defense, and said anything basically contradicted the state's theory.
Speaker 1: Of the case, and of course they weren't going to
Speaker 1: give that to us. And just to be clear, did
Speaker 1: you have access to the Ohio State Highway Patrol's database
Speaker 1: of interviews? No? Did the prosecution. Oh yeah, they had
Speaker 1: everything integrated. So there presumably are thousands and thousands and
Speaker 1: thousands of pages of interviews transcripts that you were never given. Correct.
Speaker 1: In episode two, I talked with Kenneth Marshall from the
Speaker 1: Ohio State Highway Patrol. He estimated the number of interviews
Speaker 1: they conducted was around twelve hundred, which is a lot
Speaker 1: of interviews. I actually got my hands on the index,
Speaker 1: and while yes, they were around twelve thirteen hundred interviews conducted,
Speaker 1: what's more surprising to me is how many times people
Speaker 1: were interviewed. Some are interviewed once, some twice, some are
Speaker 1: interviewed five, six, eight times. There's one guy who's interviewed
Speaker 1: eleven times and another who's interviewed twelve times. How did
Speaker 1: that strike you that these men were interviewed so many times. Well,
Speaker 1: I've seen ones where they have had multiple interviews, nothing
Speaker 1: like this scope. But you know, this whole situation is
Speaker 1: about as non standard as it comes the scope of
Speaker 1: the area where things happen, the number of individuals that
Speaker 1: could be directly or indirectly or just peripherally involved. You know,
Speaker 1: there's just nothing comparable to this case in my experience.
Speaker 1: Here's Bob, this was not a normal case. This was
Speaker 1: the case where all the politicians were involved. This was
Speaker 1: the primary case in the statable while and it rose
Speaker 1: to that level because of the unfortunate death of mister Vallanahan,
Speaker 1: who was the guard there that had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with keys case. After the uprising, around fifty people are
Speaker 1: charged with crimes like murder, attempted murder, and assault. Five
Speaker 1: are capital murder cases, meaning they're facing the death penalty,
Speaker 1: Keith being one of them. He is charged with killing
Speaker 1: more people than anyone else during the uprising, and he's
Speaker 1: the only one facing the death penalty for killing only prisoners.
Speaker 1: The other four death penalty cases surround the murders of
Speaker 1: a few prisoners and officer Robert Valandingham. Back to Bob
Speaker 1: and Hermann, they believe they're getting the constant run around
Speaker 1: from the prosecutors and Judge Crow when it comes to
Speaker 1: their repeated requests for exculpatory evidence. Then a few weeks
Speaker 1: before the start of the trial, prosecutors over to the
Speaker 1: defense a list of forty three prisoners names and eleven
Speaker 1: pages of statements summaries containing potentially favorable evidence. But there's
Speaker 1: a major hitch. Prosecutors won't match up the names with
Speaker 1: the statements. It will be up to Bob and Hermann
Speaker 1: to try to figure out who said what. So the
Speaker 1: prosecution said, basically, we promised these guys anonymity, and that's
Speaker 1: why we can't match up the statements with the names.
Speaker 1: That's total horseshit, outrageous. I mean, that's ridiculous. It would
Speaker 1: never be allowed today. It's now June twelfth, nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 1: the first day of jury selection. Before the potential jurors
Speaker 1: are brought into the courtroom, prosecutors offer Keith a plea deal.
Speaker 1: When Keith gave the final no to negotiated resolution, as
Speaker 1: I walked out at conference room to tell the judge
Speaker 1: and esecutor and we had the jury sitting out there
Speaker 1: getting right to jury selection. It's probably the worst feeling
Speaker 1: I've ever had in my stomach because I didn't know
Speaker 1: if I could save Keith's life. That must have been well,
Speaker 1: I say, I've never felt that it's the worst I've
Speaker 1: ever felt. Did you give Keith any sort of pep talk?
Speaker 1: Duck your head and full speed ahead. What was going
Speaker 1: to be the biggest challenge in representing Keith to try
Speaker 1: to find jurors who didn't automatically when they heard Lucasville
Speaker 1: say guilty. That's herman Carson. He and his co consul
Speaker 1: Bob Toy, along with prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson,
Speaker 1: spend several days interviewing potential jurors. After two black jurors
Speaker 1: are used, they settled on ten women and two men. Well,
Speaker 1: the jury was all white, mostly high school graduates, you know,
Speaker 1: working class. I say, just a typical rural county jury.
Speaker 1: Here's Bob Toy. Keith is sitting next to me, and
Speaker 1: he looked at me and Bob, I was supposed to
Speaker 1: have a jury of my peers. And I looked around
Speaker 1: the room. I saw the white judge, I saw his
Speaker 1: white lawyers. I saw the white prosecutor, saw the white jurors,
Speaker 1: and I said, oh, Keith, baby, this is it. It's terrible.
Speaker 1: Here's Judge Fred Crowe. Back then, there was several big
Speaker 1: issues about blacks being excluded for whatever. Basically, the prosecutors
Speaker 1: had to have a reasonable excuse a black jury. I
Speaker 1: don't remember how many black jurors or were, if any,
Speaker 1: I can't do there weren't any. It was an all
Speaker 1: white jurry. Okay, So now I know, or now I
Speaker 1: remember Arts County to be like other counties down there,
Speaker 1: the percentage of blacks stuff that. Man. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: well a man, I want to tell you so sure,
Speaker 1: and not on anybody's business. But I just got off
Speaker 1: while I was on the phone when you called. I
Speaker 1: was I had a half back on blackball team high
Speaker 1: school ball team who was black. Was just called and
Speaker 1: told me he's getting divorced and he's seventy eight years old.
Speaker 1: So at least I had one black Frank. It's June twentieth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five. The jury is seated, the prosecution begins
Speaker 1: their case. The first witness they call is Sergeant Howard Hudson,
Speaker 1: one of the investigators with the Ohio State Highway Patrol.
Speaker 1: According to the trial transcripts, Sergeant Hudson testified that as
Speaker 1: part of their initial search and processing of the crime scene,
Speaker 1: they were around seventy five hundred photographs taken and over
Speaker 1: twenty thousand pieces of evidence collected. When asked if any
Speaker 1: of the physical evidence collected pointed to Keith Lamar, Sergeant
Speaker 1: Hudson says, quote, there was no evidence that came back
Speaker 1: conclusive that pointed to anybody. The evidence was largely contaminated.
Speaker 1: Sergeant Hudson also says that after a certain number of
Speaker 1: people were interviewed, he along with others, decided to charge
Speaker 1: Keith Lamar with these killings. I remember a sergeant Hudson
Speaker 1: I called sergeant zero because he had zero evidence. A
Speaker 1: nice guy, but they really had no evidence besides a
Speaker 1: bunch of snitches against Keith. It's just that simple. So
Speaker 1: with no physical evidence, Bob and Hermann say, the prosecution's
Speaker 1: case hinges on the testimony of fellow prisoners. What did
Speaker 1: all of those witnesses have in common? Well, they had
Speaker 1: done or participated to some level in the riot and
Speaker 1: weren't being prosecuted for it. Two of them maybe did
Speaker 1: have some minor charges filed, but no ways near what
Speaker 1: they did. According to the trial transcripts, some witnesses receive
Speaker 1: lesser sentences. It seems one witness is charged with the
Speaker 1: murder than those charges are dropped and another witness is
Speaker 1: never charged at all, although he admits a taking part
Speaker 1: in at least one of the killings, one of the
Speaker 1: same Keith is on trial for. It was people who
Speaker 1: were paid to testify, paid by getting lesser sentence and
Speaker 1: acquiring their testimony. That's what happened. Nevertheless, there are five
Speaker 1: men who testify that Keith was involved in the L
Speaker 1: six murders, All described in varying degrees of detail, how
Speaker 1: Keith ordered and in some cases took part in the
Speaker 1: killings of the so called snitches with the help of
Speaker 1: his death squad. One of those death squad members is
Speaker 1: Lewis Jones, also one of the prosecution's star witnesses. On
Speaker 1: the stand, Lewis Jones claims when he, Keith and another
Speaker 1: guy went inside L Block to check on their belongings
Speaker 1: and then got stuck there, Keith came up with the
Speaker 1: idea of how they could get back out to the yard.
Speaker 1: I ask Keith about this. It was Jones testified that
Speaker 1: you turned to him and said, hey, there's no point
Speaker 1: in us being caught up in this. Let's kill the
Speaker 1: snitches and then we can leave. It doesn't follow logically,
Speaker 1: you know, Let's we don't want to have anything to
Speaker 1: do with the ride, So let's kill people and so
Speaker 1: we can be implicated in the ride. You know, that's
Speaker 1: another thing too. If if I was responsible for the five,
Speaker 1: that's why let me leave, because somebody we're going to
Speaker 1: will be, you know, left hole in the back. You know,
Speaker 1: we're gonna let you kill these five people, and we're
Speaker 1: going to let you leave, you know, because when at
Speaker 1: some point this had to come to the end. They
Speaker 1: wasn't intended for the riot to last forever. So at
Speaker 1: some point somebody got an answer for these deaths. So
Speaker 1: why let the guy who's responsible these deaths just get
Speaker 1: up to walk out and leave, to leave us having
Speaker 1: to explain? Yeah, you know, but none of those questions
Speaker 1: were asked, None of those none of the subscripancies were
Speaker 1: put to the jewelry. According to that Ohio State Highway
Speaker 1: Patrol Index of Interviews, Lewis Jones was interviewed eleven times
Speaker 1: after his initial statement. He was moved to another prison
Speaker 1: closer to his family in Cleveland, and although Lewis Jones
Speaker 1: admitted to taking part in at least one of the killings,
Speaker 1: Jones was never indicted for anything that happened during the
Speaker 1: uprising and is now out of prison. I'd like to
Speaker 1: hear Jones's version of events, and have tried to track
Speaker 1: him down with no luck. Next on the stand are
Speaker 1: three men who were in that K block cell where
Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver was murdered. They all say, again in varying
Speaker 1: degrees of detail, that Keith accused Weaver of being a snitch.
Speaker 1: Then Keith ordered for Weaver to be killed. Michael Childers,
Speaker 1: one of the men who helped choke Weaver to death,
Speaker 1: testifies that Keith threatened his life if he didn't jump
Speaker 1: in and helped finish the job. On the stand, Childers
Speaker 1: calls Keith quote an animal. On cross examination, Childers is
Speaker 1: asked about a letter he wrote to prison officials not
Speaker 1: long after the uprising, in which he said the FBI
Speaker 1: had implanted a mini microphone under his scalp back in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. Childers verse says he doesn't recall the letter,
Speaker 1: then he denies it altogether. Here's Herman Well. I praise
Speaker 1: as serious questions as a competency and the veracity of
Speaker 1: what weight can you give to somebody who believes that
Speaker 1: he's had a chip in playing in his brain and
Speaker 1: people are talking to him through it or communicating with
Speaker 1: him through that. As part of his plea deal, Michael
Speaker 1: children Is pleads guilty to involuntary manslaughter and is sentenced
Speaker 1: five to twenty five years to run concurrent with the
Speaker 1: one he was already serving, meaning no time is added
Speaker 1: to a sentence. It seems Childrens is no longer incarcerated.
Speaker 1: I've reached out to who I believe is him, but
Speaker 1: have yet to hear back. Were any of the state's
Speaker 1: witnesses believable? Not in my opinion particularly, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: they just weren't in my opinion. I mean the death squad.
Speaker 1: Initially nobody's identifying him, and all of a sudden they're
Speaker 1: identifying him. Felt that they were lying, and they had
Speaker 1: plenty of incentive to lie. I wonder what Judge Crowe
Speaker 1: thinks about that. It seemed like most, if not all,
Speaker 1: of the prosecution's witnesses got some sort of deal for
Speaker 1: cooperating with the state, So that's probably true. I mean
Speaker 1: that most of them did get something at all. That
Speaker 1: happens all the time. Doesn't that muddy the waters? It does,
Speaker 1: But most prosecutors will tell the jury we don't find
Speaker 1: our witnesses in church, we find them in prison. And
Speaker 1: that's very much true. If you eliminate the scumbags testimony
Speaker 1: against all the scumbags, you would have a hard time
Speaker 1: convicted anybody because they prosecutors don't choose their witness After all,
Speaker 1: the prisoner witnesses testify. Prosecutors call a Louisville captain and
Speaker 1: correct officer, an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper, and two
Speaker 1: pathologists who performed the autopsies on the victims. Once again,
Speaker 1: we can't forget the victims in all this. I'm sure
Speaker 1: there are family members and friends out there who are
Speaker 1: still grieving their loss. Although strangely, according to Keith, Herman,
Speaker 1: Bob and Judge Crowe, none of the victims family members
Speaker 1: ever came to court during that trial. There wasn't one
Speaker 1: representative of any of those deceased inmates that shared up
Speaker 1: That struck me as pretty odd. Nobody cared about the
Speaker 1: five guys who got kids. The prosecution rests their case
Speaker 1: on June twenty seventh. That afternoon, the defense begins presenting theirs.
Speaker 1: They call four inmates who testify, in the early hours
Speaker 1: of the uprising, they saw Keith out on the wreck yard.
Speaker 1: The times varied, but they said he was out there
Speaker 1: and he looked normal. One witness is asked if there
Speaker 1: was blood or dirt on Keith. He says no. Then
Speaker 1: they call William Gino Washington. He was in that K
Speaker 1: block cell and witnessed the murder of Dennis Weaver. He
Speaker 1: testifies that Keith had nothing to do with Dennis Weaver's death.
Speaker 1: Then a bombshell drops during cross examination, Prosecutor Bill Anderson
Speaker 1: says they have an audiotaped interview with Gino Washington that
Speaker 1: contradicts his entire testimony. Here's Keith's defense attorney Herman Carson.
Speaker 1: Excuse my language, but Bill Anderson was so excited, I
Speaker 1: thought he was going to piss himself. Judge Crowe asks
Speaker 1: for the jury to leave the courtroom. Then the roughly
Speaker 1: twenty minute tape is played. On that tape and it's
Speaker 1: all in the trial transcripts. Gino Washington is heard saying,
Speaker 1: Keith and another guy ordered Dennis Weaver's murder. What were
Speaker 1: you feeling and experiencing when you realize that they had
Speaker 1: an interview that was basically impeaching your witness, Well, that
Speaker 1: was fundamentally unfair they should have disclosed that he had
Speaker 1: been listed as a witness back then. I believe their
Speaker 1: view is, oh, we didn't know it's going to be exculpatory,
Speaker 1: you know, and which my views, that's a bunch of bullshit.
Speaker 1: When the jury is brought back in, the prosecutor asks
Speaker 1: Gino Washington about this. Washington says, in that taped interview,
Speaker 1: investigators at the time we're trying to make him point
Speaker 1: the finger at Keith and the other guy. He says,
Speaker 1: he lied and told them what they wanted to hear,
Speaker 1: because at the time, Gino was scheduled to appear in
Speaker 1: front of the parole board, and investigators told him that
Speaker 1: they wouldn't let him go until he was quote off investigation.
Speaker 1: And today in court he says he's now telling the truth.
Speaker 1: And here's another thing I find curious. William Bowling, the
Speaker 1: main guy who strangled Dennis Weaver, never took the stand
Speaker 1: for the prosecution or the defense. Remember, the state says
Speaker 1: that Keith made William Bowling kill Dennis Weaver. So it
Speaker 1: seems like it would have been a no brainer on
Speaker 1: the part of the prosecution to have him take the
Speaker 1: stand and point the finger at Keith. Right, So why
Speaker 1: didn't they call him? Maybe the prosecution thought they didn't
Speaker 1: need his testimony, or maybe they learned something that made
Speaker 1: calling him to risky and could jeopardize their case. Back
Speaker 1: to Gina Washington. After he testifies, the defense calls their
Speaker 1: last witness to the stand, Keith Lamar. I decided earlone,
Speaker 1: I was going to take the stand, something that I
Speaker 1: was advised not to do by everybody, you know, but
Speaker 1: I was determined to participate in every aspect of this process.
Speaker 1: Here's Keith's defense attorney, Bob Toy. I believe that by
Speaker 1: calling him it was not going to hurt his case. Okay,
Speaker 1: it usually does, but we had a client who was
Speaker 1: very unusual in reference to being articulate, intelligent. We thought
Speaker 1: he could handle cross examination, and he did as best
Speaker 1: he could. We were hoping it would help, could be
Speaker 1: a last measure of just presenting a human being to
Speaker 1: a jury. On the stand, Keith maintains his innocence. He
Speaker 1: says he had nothing to do with the killings in
Speaker 1: L Block and in K Block. He admits to Lyne
Speaker 1: to investigators that he was asleep when Dennis Weaver was killed,
Speaker 1: but he did not order Weaver's murder, nor did he
Speaker 1: take part in it, and he has no words to
Speaker 1: justify why he didn't stop it. On cross examination, prosecutor
Speaker 1: Seth Tiger asks Keith about the testimonies given by the
Speaker 1: state's witnesses. Keith says they all lied. Near the end,
Speaker 1: Seth Tiger asks Keith, quote, do you like snitches? Keith responds, quote,
Speaker 1: I don't trust snitches. Then Tiger asks what does it
Speaker 1: feel like to have the power to order someone's death.
Speaker 1: Keith answers, I couldn't tell you. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I've ever asked you this before, but did you ever
Speaker 1: have an issue or beef with snitches at Lucasville? But
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I don't want to be around
Speaker 1: somebody who I can't trust. So it wasn't that a
Speaker 1: blanket thing that I don't like snitches. I mean, who
Speaker 1: who do you know black snitches? Do? I? Yeah, um no, no.
Speaker 1: But not liking them and wanting to hurt them are
Speaker 1: two different things. Well, I'm designsing you. Of course, the
Speaker 1: leader of the quote unquote death squad, which they said
Speaker 1: you were. This person led this group of men sell
Speaker 1: to sell to kill the snitches. That is an intense
Speaker 1: hatred for snitches, right, it's I don't know that it
Speaker 1: actually had to be an intense hate with but it
Speaker 1: had to be something that as an organization, whatever game
Speaker 1: that you belong to, it's an organized dog. No, it's
Speaker 1: a blanket artists or you know called the bay because
Speaker 1: on a personal level, it's about this person snitched on me.
Speaker 1: I was, I had drugs in my sale or whatever
Speaker 1: the case may be. It don't that doesn't automatically, you know,
Speaker 1: rise to the level of you killing five people. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a blanket thing. And the only way you have
Speaker 1: a blanket thing like that if it's a part of
Speaker 1: the coals of the game that you are in. I
Speaker 1: wasn't in the game. You see. That's the thing that
Speaker 1: you know, people don't you know, That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: The nuance. You're saying that I came in and you
Speaker 1: know as some kind of you know, you know, you
Speaker 1: know long you know, uh say length and you know
Speaker 1: on this you know, crusade to read the prisoner snitches.
Speaker 1: If you don't do that as an individual, why would
Speaker 1: I take on that as as a twenty three year
Speaker 1: old man. That didn't happen On June twenty ninth, after
Speaker 1: seven days of testimony, the case goes to the jury.
Speaker 1: For this phase of the trial, they will be sequestered.
Speaker 1: How did you feel as the jury was about to
Speaker 1: go into deliberations. I didn't feel hopeful. There's no defense
Speaker 1: I can really put up. Obviously I wasn't on the
Speaker 1: other side, So there's nothing I completly say about it,
Speaker 1: but that the witnesses to testified on my behalf. I
Speaker 1: mean they can say is that they saw me on
Speaker 1: the yard. So it was a lame defense compared to
Speaker 1: what the state put forth. They put forth for a
Speaker 1: cohesive argument and suppress anything that refute it. What they
Speaker 1: wouldn't to testify it too. It was laughable, you know, um,
Speaker 1: although I didn't laugh. The next day the jury comes
Speaker 1: back with its verdict. Keith has found guilty on all charges.
Speaker 1: Do I think they had enough to convict them? Oh?
Speaker 1: I dog people, you know, you know people, it was
Speaker 1: just shopping at the bit, you know, to return the
Speaker 1: guilty but and it wasn't. It's about to ride. You
Speaker 1: can remember also that you know, this is Radwin oj Simpson,
Speaker 1: you know, murdering two white people in California, magively. You know,
Speaker 1: Rodney Key, all that happened. You know, all that stuff
Speaker 1: was swallows around at that time, you know. So it's
Speaker 1: a real racial climate where this happened, you know, and
Speaker 1: so you know, all those things I think ultimately meditators
Speaker 1: against me. You know, I was guilty at the moment.
Speaker 1: I had to manage it well. Next jurors will hear
Speaker 1: the mitigating evidence, or evidence that makes the case for
Speaker 1: sparing Keith's life and not giving him the death penalty.
Speaker 1: Called to testify are some of Keith's family members and
Speaker 1: two experts who talk about the intense challenges Keith faced
Speaker 1: during his childhood, especially the mental and physical abuse at
Speaker 1: the hands of his stepfather, Larry, and the emotional unavailability
Speaker 1: of his mother, and how all of that and more
Speaker 1: led Keith, like so many others who grow up in
Speaker 1: a similar situation, to be vulnerable to adopting a new
Speaker 1: set of values, like the values of the streets. On
Speaker 1: July seventh, the jury returns its sentencing recommendation. They unanimously
Speaker 1: recommend the death penalty for four of the murders and
Speaker 1: life with the possibility of parole after thirty years for
Speaker 1: the fifth. But it's not over just yet. Judge Crowe
Speaker 1: has the ultimate say on whether or not he'll take
Speaker 1: the jury's recommendation. So on August twenty first, all reconvene
Speaker 1: one last time. This day is like no other because
Speaker 1: I came onto the court room and it's just full
Speaker 1: then the Rome only all white people. Nobody attain to trial.
Speaker 1: They had all evidence at all his witnesses. Nobody gave
Speaker 1: a damn about that. You know, but somebody's about to
Speaker 1: be sensive to death. You know, this was a lynching.
Speaker 1: And I'm telling you I came out in his court
Speaker 1: orone and it was just it was a small court
Speaker 1: orone body, you know, you know what a city capacity
Speaker 1: boy about thirty people, forty people, not know, but it
Speaker 1: felt like it was like two hundred people cramped into
Speaker 1: this play. They sold up, they showed up, Leah I'm
Speaker 1: talking about. And was the most unnerving thing. It was
Speaker 1: the most evil thing I've ever felt on seeing in
Speaker 1: my life because I knew why they were there. Before
Speaker 1: Judge Crowe renders his decision, Keith is allowed to address
Speaker 1: the court. Here is part of his videotaped statement, the
Speaker 1: only part of the trial that was recorded. The quality
Speaker 1: isn't good, but I think it's important to hear Keith
Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety five, just moments before he's about
Speaker 1: to learn his face. By the way, you can go
Speaker 1: to the Real Killer podcast Instagram page to watch this video.
Speaker 1: Every man must be here common before it was actually
Speaker 1: approved of day nineteen eighty eight, I was called students
Speaker 1: to jurity my ur stuff because of my ashton I
Speaker 1: played KiB was sensens to two years imprisonment. In nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty nine. Cute man by name Kenya compons because my
Speaker 1: ashes are played him. I'm sensor to return of eighteen.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of prisoner. Nineteen ninety four, I was
Speaker 1: charted nine content aggivated murder death pending special cases. But
Speaker 1: because my aster that I killed and I placed my
Speaker 1: life and handled prosecute me. Every man must be able
Speaker 1: common silly man. We shot a unjust system. I don't
Speaker 1: want to sound like I'm disrespecting any one or even
Speaker 1: disrespect for myself. I'm number who sett my sin or
Speaker 1: a little mysel. Oh bye, just something I don't believe,
Speaker 1: and I don't believing what took place in Score prosecuted
Speaker 1: he everything he coached, wits and whoever they would be able.
Speaker 1: Common said. Apparently Keith's statement makes no impact on Judge
Speaker 1: Crowe because moments later he upholds the jury's recommendation and
Speaker 1: sentences Keith to death. Here's Judge Crowe. I was nervous
Speaker 1: and didn't want to do it, and that's a pretty
Speaker 1: to me. I thought I'd have no trouble, but actually
Speaker 1: came down to it and bothered me. He was a gentleman,
Speaker 1: and I kind of liked the action hotel, and that's
Speaker 1: what made it hard to render the verdict. That's what
Speaker 1: I did. I like Keith. I'm curious. You don't have
Speaker 1: to accept the jury's recommendation for the death penalty, right,
Speaker 1: you could shoot, So why did you? Because the aggravating
Speaker 1: circumstances were certainly outweighed of mitigating situation. When you get
Speaker 1: involved in killing five people, that's pretty aggravating to me.
Speaker 1: And you believed in his guilt. You still believe in
Speaker 1: his guilt. Yes. In twenty eleven, Judge Crowe retired, citing
Speaker 1: issues with his health. According to The Athens News, there
Speaker 1: were rumors that the Ohio Supreme Court's Office of Disciplinary
Speaker 1: Council had been looking into Judge Crowe's performance on the bench.
Speaker 1: When a representative for the Disciplinary Council was asked whether
Speaker 1: or not Judge Crowe was a subject of any sort
Speaker 1: of investigation, he said he would not comment. I read
Speaker 1: that there were some rumors about the Ohio Supreme Courts Office.
Speaker 1: The Disciplinary Council was looking at your at your record.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me anything about that would have nothing
Speaker 1: to do with my conduct of the any trial? But
Speaker 1: yes they did. I had a couple of awful employees
Speaker 1: that tried to get me in trouble, which nothing came
Speaker 1: of us. But nothing to do with any case I
Speaker 1: had before or after any case, nothing to do with
Speaker 1: any of my judicial decisions that I could think of.
Speaker 1: The Athens Knew said that they were looking at your
Speaker 1: performance on the bench. Well, they were looking at my
Speaker 1: conduct and uh, but it had nothing to do with
Speaker 1: any rulings made in reference to a major trial. Was
Speaker 1: put that way? What it was, if you want to know, Delegate,
Speaker 1: part about it was that commissioner's wife when I had
Speaker 1: a crush on me once upon a time, and a
Speaker 1: commissioner storted that he's the one I told the papers
Speaker 1: about the big investigation of the judge. It was bad publicity.
Speaker 1: I mean, they didn't have any charges or anything they said.
Speaker 1: Any big investigations on mount doesn't have anything to do
Speaker 1: with the rulings, that being prejudice against anybody or anything
Speaker 1: like that. When I tell Keith that I spoke with
Speaker 1: Judge Crow, I'm so he said it's a fair trial
Speaker 1: and everything. Huh oh, well yes, um oh that's what
Speaker 1: he's saying. They have them evidence with overwhelming Yeah. He
Speaker 1: also said that he liked you. You know, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not laughing like you know, like I'm
Speaker 1: enjoying what you're saying. This is absurd, man, It's just
Speaker 1: like these fucking people man, you know, my god, there's
Speaker 1: too much man, you know. And this person you know,
Speaker 1: to sit somewhere wherever the fuck he's sitting at right now,
Speaker 1: Judge Crow, I'm trying to say that he really liked me. No,
Speaker 1: that he you know, you know, you know I don't.
Speaker 1: You don't imagine how many times I don't heard ship
Speaker 1: like that for somebody who just put my toothbrush in
Speaker 1: their ass, or you can do my meal and the talling,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And the same person I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about you know what I
Speaker 1: mean about your family, how your mother doing. No these
Speaker 1: fucking people based on there. Yeah, I'm just previously. You
Speaker 1: know I've already battled. I'm in the court room. I'm
Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety five. I'm sitting in this court room.
Speaker 1: I'm just envisioning this ship. I came in this court room.
Speaker 1: I was defended. We wasn't friends and sit down and
Speaker 1: exchange words that they're listening to. Washington fucked me over.
Speaker 1: That's and he liked me. He's like, you know what,
Speaker 1: court woul you was here. We wasn't in no fucking picnic,
Speaker 1: sitting in no motherfucking resting rock Charon and meal. You
Speaker 1: was sucking me up. My life. You're taking my life,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I get mad because you
Speaker 1: know I did take to see it personal, because you know,
Speaker 1: how can I not. Here's Keith's attorney, Bob Toy. We
Speaker 1: did the best we could with what we had, is
Speaker 1: what I've believed. I gave him my whole heart, and
Speaker 1: I know Herman did too. I have a picture of Keith, myself, Herman,
Speaker 1: and our intern Molly waiting for the death verdict. It's
Speaker 1: across me in a little counter and I put it
Speaker 1: up there front and center. Oh, I've used it many times.
Speaker 1: I said, hey, you don't have to listen to what
Speaker 1: I say, and if you want to go to trial,
Speaker 1: we'll go to trial. And I say, this guy went
Speaker 1: to trial. And sometimes we give people advice they don't
Speaker 1: listen to, and sometimes not for a good reason. Keith
Speaker 1: had a good reason. This reason is he said he
Speaker 1: didn't do it. And you know, over the years, you'll
Speaker 1: look back at it going, oh my god. I don't
Speaker 1: think they had enough evidence and I don't think he
Speaker 1: did do it. So that's where you're at. And should
Speaker 1: they have convicted him based upon what they had in
Speaker 1: the manner in which they did it. No. I reached
Speaker 1: out to prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson to see
Speaker 1: if they'd be willing to talk with me. Seth Tiger
Speaker 1: called me back and left me this message. Heymis Rothman.
Speaker 1: This is Seth Tiger from the Hamilton County prosecutor. I
Speaker 1: was one of the prosecutors on the Keith Lamar Lucastil
Speaker 1: prison riot case. I've talked to Bill Anderson, who's also
Speaker 1: a Hamilton County prosecutor, and we were co prosecutors on
Speaker 1: that case, on the Keith Lamar case, anyway, we are
Speaker 1: not interested in getting involved in your investigation or podcast,
Speaker 1: So anyway else is going to let you know that
Speaker 1: thanks to the call, and anyway, that's it. Thanks. I'm
Speaker 1: going to keep trying, but you should know that. Seth
Speaker 1: Tiger did talk to The New York Times for a
Speaker 1: February twenty twenty two article they did on Keith in
Speaker 1: his case. In it, Tiger said this quote, we turned
Speaker 1: over everything that we were required to under the rules
Speaker 1: of discovery to Bill and I. He is extremely guilty.
Speaker 1: He is where he belongs on death row. I did
Speaker 1: speak on the phone with Sergeant Howard Hudson, who testified
Speaker 1: at Keith's trial and was very hands on in the
Speaker 1: investigation for the Ohio State Highway Patrol. At first he
Speaker 1: agreed to participate, then he started following me on Instagram.
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks later, he texted me this quote,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I've changed my mind and no longer wish
Speaker 1: to participate. By the way, the real killers at Lucasville
Speaker 1: are the ones we convicted. So with a trial over,
Speaker 1: Keith is transported to a prison in Mansfield, Ohio on
Speaker 1: my ride from Lucasville's Mansfield. I think I just doubled
Speaker 1: down in terms of my attitude that I would resist
Speaker 1: this whole process. And I didn't know obviously what shape
Speaker 1: that would take, but I knew that I was going
Speaker 1: to fight. When they brought me off the van that
Speaker 1: day and was about to walk me to the death
Speaker 1: row unit, I stopped walking. And I don't know what
Speaker 1: made me do that. It just seemed like if I
Speaker 1: was going to fight them, that I might as well
Speaker 1: start right now. And I just stopped walking. And you know,
Speaker 1: the guards, you know everybody, they seem confused, like why
Speaker 1: aren't you walking? And you know I'm innocence. Next time
Speaker 1: I'm the real killer. But I tell you what, if
Speaker 1: I one day found myself strapped to a journey, if
Speaker 1: these people will not be able to call it justice,
Speaker 1: will not be able to say that we did right
Speaker 1: by this person, a chance at a new trial goes
Speaker 1: up in Flames, I remember, and walking past me on
Speaker 1: his way out of the courtroom, I mean he said,
Speaker 1: good lucky. And for Keith, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Speaker 1: It puts you through all this bull shit, and you
Speaker 1: if you get angry. See, that's proof that he's an animal. No,
Speaker 1: that's proof that I'm a human being, that this shit
Speaker 1: hurt if the ship you're doing to me is painful.
Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive
Speaker 1: producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George
Speaker 1: fam Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and
Speaker 1: mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio
Speaker 1: engineering by Anna Moolshan. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas,
Speaker 1: Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard