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Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence

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Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. The door was

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Speaker 1: open for me to become an informant. Months before Keith

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Speaker 1: Lamar is indicted for killing five men during the Lucasville Uprising,

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Speaker 1: he says he's given an opportunity to work with investigators,

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Speaker 1: an opportunity he has no interest in taking. I told him,

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Speaker 1: get the fuck out of my face, the investigator saying

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Speaker 1: to me, you could you know, like, are you insane?

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Speaker 1: This is a sweetheart deal. I s a sweetheart deals

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Speaker 1: from innocent. If you're gonna sept this deal, I'm here

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Speaker 1: to tell you that we're going to put your black

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Speaker 1: ass on death. Bro I want a trial, You want

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Speaker 1: to trial, We're gonna give you a trial. I'm Leah Rothman.

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Speaker 1: This is the Real Killer. Episode four, Duck your Head

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Speaker 1: and Full Speed Ahead. In nineteen ninety four, Keith is

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Speaker 1: charged with nine counts of aggravated murder for the deaths

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Speaker 1: of Darryl Dipina, Albert Steano, William Savetti, Bruce Vitali, and

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Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver. His attorneys will have around nine months to

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Speaker 1: prepare for trial. You believed in Keith's innocence. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I still do. That's Hermann Carson, one of Keith's nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety five trial lawyers. I wonder what Bob Toy, Keith's

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Speaker 1: other trial attorney, thinks, or if he ever asked Keith

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Speaker 1: if he did it. You know, when I deal with

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Speaker 1: a criminal case, I look at the evidence that the

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Speaker 1: prosecutor has. Can they prove this case beyond a reason?

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Speaker 1: Will down? I don't ask my clients are by guilty.

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Speaker 1: I quite frankly don't give a shit. I get why Bob,

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Speaker 1: as a defense attorney, didn't ask, but I'm not Bob.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just going to ask you, did you kill

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Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver? No? I did? Did you kill Darryl Dpina? No?

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Speaker 1: I did did you kill Albert Steano? No? I did?

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Speaker 1: Did you kill William Sabetti? No? Did you kill Bruce Vatali? No?

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Speaker 1: I can imagine what you're thinking. I shouldn't have to

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Speaker 1: answer that. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to

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Speaker 1: be asked these questions. Of course, it's fair if we're

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Speaker 1: trying to lab It's the only way to lap the

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Speaker 1: US to ask these hard questions. I've dildn't have spend

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Speaker 1: a months up from day one. Keith answers my questions.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to answer one of his. When I

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Speaker 1: visited Keith, he asked me to look into the possibility

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Speaker 1: the men he's accused of killing were not actually snitches

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Speaker 1: but child molesters and rapists, because if they were, then

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Speaker 1: what maybe that would point to a different motive for

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Speaker 1: why they were murdered, or maybe the snitches label was

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Speaker 1: simply concocted so they would appear more sympathetic to jurors.

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Speaker 1: And look, there's no way for me to really find

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Speaker 1: out if they were snitches or not. But I was

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Speaker 1: able to find their criminal records. So a couple of

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Speaker 1: them had kidnapping and rape charges, but for the most

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Speaker 1: part they were like murder, felonious assault, arson, robbery. There

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Speaker 1: was one one guy who hold on my look, there

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Speaker 1: was one guy who was at Lucasville for kidnapping and rape.

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Speaker 1: That was in nineteen eighty three, and he had been

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Speaker 1: charged with raping a twelve year old and a nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old back in nineteen seventy seven. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if he was convicted. I just saw that he was charged.

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Speaker 1: So what do you make of that, well, no less speculation.

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Speaker 1: You know. The thing that always struck me about the

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Speaker 1: narrative is that, you know, the state said today were stitches,

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Speaker 1: and everybody just ran with that, you know, because if they,

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Speaker 1: if their actual record was introduced, maybe it were prejudice

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Speaker 1: to jury against you know, caring or having sympathy for

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Speaker 1: them that they had lost their lives in this real

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Speaker 1: hogrific way. I just don't want to accept without question

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Speaker 1: anything the state has to say in terms of narrative

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Speaker 1: and framing the situation. You know, there's someone else who

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Speaker 1: might be able to shed some light on this. Former

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Speaker 1: Lucasville Warden, Arthur Tate. Do you know if the guys,

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Speaker 1: the inmates who were killed, were they snitches? I don't know. Savetti,

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Speaker 1: I would say absolutely not now, And this is what

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Speaker 1: I was told about Savetti. And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this is true. I don't know if you've heard a

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Speaker 1: story similar or contrary or whatever, but Savetti, I mean

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Speaker 1: I knew him personally. He's an older gentleman. He walked

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Speaker 1: with a walker, and anytime that he saw me in

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Speaker 1: the hallway, he would chase me down and he had

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Speaker 1: something to bit to me about The information that I

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Speaker 1: got was that when the offenders that got the keys,

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Speaker 1: they were African American guys, and they started keying the

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Speaker 1: console and his door popped open, and he came out

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Speaker 1: and saw them at the console and made the comment

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Speaker 1: what are you in guys using the in word what

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Speaker 1: are you doing? And they went right down killed him.

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Speaker 1: That's the word I got. That's how he got killed.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe he was a snitch. But there were

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Speaker 1: a couple inmates that were involved in the snitch game

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Speaker 1: that were killed. I can't recall their names. So maybe

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Speaker 1: William Savetti wasn't a snitch, but maybe some of the

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Speaker 1: others were. I don't think we'll ever know. I'm not

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Speaker 1: even sure it matters. It doesn't change anything for Keith.

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Speaker 1: In the months leading up to Keith's trial, one of

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Speaker 1: Bob and Hermann's first orders of business is to get

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Speaker 1: it moved from Sciota County, where Lucasville is located, to

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Speaker 1: somewhere less potentially prejudicial. Here's Bob. We asked for a

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Speaker 1: change of venue and it was granted, although granting it

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Speaker 1: by moving into the next county where most of the

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Speaker 1: people work and Lucasville are associated with it didn't really

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Speaker 1: help much. The trial will be held thirty eight miles

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Speaker 1: from Lucasville in Ironton, Ohio. That's in Lawrence County, the

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Speaker 1: most southern county in the state of Ohio. The demographics

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Speaker 1: there are similar to Sciota County, well over ninety percent white.

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Speaker 1: Presiding over the case will be Judge Fred Crowe, the

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Speaker 1: third Judge. Crowe was fifty years old at the time

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Speaker 1: of the trial. Today he's seventy seven and retired. I

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Speaker 1: talked with him over zoom. Did you in your years

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Speaker 1: of being a judge have a certain reputation? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: kind of did. I actually had a song about hanging

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Speaker 1: Judge Crew. That was the song, and that was a

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Speaker 1: reputation along most of the attorneys I knew. I was

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Speaker 1: a strong advocate for law enforcement. Hanging Judge Crowe like

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Speaker 1: hanging people or what would do? It was a colony

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Speaker 1: dive song A friend of mine Root. Judge Fred Crowe

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Speaker 1: comes from a long line of law and order. His

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Speaker 1: grandfather was a judge, his dad an FBI agent. Keith's attorney,

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Speaker 1: Bob Toy knows Judge Crowe well. He's argued many cases

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Speaker 1: in front of him over the years he's something else.

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Speaker 1: He was definitely pro prosecution. There's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: It's very simple in Judge Crowe's court. When you get convicted,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get the max from him, and you're

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Speaker 1: going to get the death penalty. That's just like a given.

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Speaker 1: So if the prosecutor gives you an offer and you

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Speaker 1: have a bad case, you might want to take it.

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Speaker 1: The prosecutors who will be presenting the states case are

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Speaker 1: Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson. They were aggressive prosecutors. They

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Speaker 1: come from Hamilton County. It's a tough county to commit

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Speaker 1: a crime in. They were very aggressive. They were smart.

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Speaker 1: So the teams are in place, the venue is set,

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Speaker 1: but before they can get to jury selection, there are

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Speaker 1: the pre trial motions, lots of them, mostly surrounding discovery,

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Speaker 1: what evidence the prosecution has and what the defense wants

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Speaker 1: them to hand over. This is going to be a

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Speaker 1: real sticking point in Keith's case. Here's Hermann, Well, we

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Speaker 1: were asking for what's called Brady material, anything that's favorable

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Speaker 1: or exculpatory to the defendant they're required to turn over

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Speaker 1: to the defense, and said anything basically contradicted the state's theory.

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Speaker 1: Of the case, and of course they weren't going to

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Speaker 1: give that to us. And just to be clear, did

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Speaker 1: you have access to the Ohio State Highway Patrol's database

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Speaker 1: of interviews? No? Did the prosecution. Oh yeah, they had

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Speaker 1: everything integrated. So there presumably are thousands and thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands of pages of interviews transcripts that you were never given. Correct.

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Speaker 1: In episode two, I talked with Kenneth Marshall from the

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Speaker 1: Ohio State Highway Patrol. He estimated the number of interviews

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Speaker 1: they conducted was around twelve hundred, which is a lot

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Speaker 1: of interviews. I actually got my hands on the index,

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Speaker 1: and while yes, they were around twelve thirteen hundred interviews conducted,

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Speaker 1: what's more surprising to me is how many times people

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Speaker 1: were interviewed. Some are interviewed once, some twice, some are

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Speaker 1: interviewed five, six, eight times. There's one guy who's interviewed

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Speaker 1: eleven times and another who's interviewed twelve times. How did

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Speaker 1: that strike you that these men were interviewed so many times. Well,

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Speaker 1: I've seen ones where they have had multiple interviews, nothing

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Speaker 1: like this scope. But you know, this whole situation is

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Speaker 1: about as non standard as it comes the scope of

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Speaker 1: the area where things happen, the number of individuals that

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Speaker 1: could be directly or indirectly or just peripherally involved. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's just nothing comparable to this case in my experience.

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Speaker 1: Here's Bob, this was not a normal case. This was

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Speaker 1: the case where all the politicians were involved. This was

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Speaker 1: the primary case in the statable while and it rose

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Speaker 1: to that level because of the unfortunate death of mister Vallanahan,

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Speaker 1: who was the guard there that had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with keys case. After the uprising, around fifty people are

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Speaker 1: charged with crimes like murder, attempted murder, and assault. Five

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Speaker 1: are capital murder cases, meaning they're facing the death penalty,

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Speaker 1: Keith being one of them. He is charged with killing

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Speaker 1: more people than anyone else during the uprising, and he's

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Speaker 1: the only one facing the death penalty for killing only prisoners.

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Speaker 1: The other four death penalty cases surround the murders of

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Speaker 1: a few prisoners and officer Robert Valandingham. Back to Bob

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Speaker 1: and Hermann, they believe they're getting the constant run around

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Speaker 1: from the prosecutors and Judge Crow when it comes to

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Speaker 1: their repeated requests for exculpatory evidence. Then a few weeks

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Speaker 1: before the start of the trial, prosecutors over to the

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Speaker 1: defense a list of forty three prisoners names and eleven

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Speaker 1: pages of statements summaries containing potentially favorable evidence. But there's

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Speaker 1: a major hitch. Prosecutors won't match up the names with

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Speaker 1: the statements. It will be up to Bob and Hermann

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out who said what. So the

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Speaker 1: prosecution said, basically, we promised these guys anonymity, and that's

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Speaker 1: why we can't match up the statements with the names.

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Speaker 1: That's total horseshit, outrageous. I mean, that's ridiculous. It would

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Speaker 1: never be allowed today. It's now June twelfth, nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 1: the first day of jury selection. Before the potential jurors

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Speaker 1: are brought into the courtroom, prosecutors offer Keith a plea deal.

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Speaker 1: When Keith gave the final no to negotiated resolution, as

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Speaker 1: I walked out at conference room to tell the judge

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Speaker 1: and esecutor and we had the jury sitting out there

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Speaker 1: getting right to jury selection. It's probably the worst feeling

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Speaker 1: I've ever had in my stomach because I didn't know

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Speaker 1: if I could save Keith's life. That must have been well,

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Speaker 1: I say, I've never felt that it's the worst I've

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Speaker 1: ever felt. Did you give Keith any sort of pep talk?

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Speaker 1: Duck your head and full speed ahead. What was going

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Speaker 1: to be the biggest challenge in representing Keith to try

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Speaker 1: to find jurors who didn't automatically when they heard Lucasville

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Speaker 1: say guilty. That's herman Carson. He and his co consul

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Speaker 1: Bob Toy, along with prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson,

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Speaker 1: spend several days interviewing potential jurors. After two black jurors

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Speaker 1: are used, they settled on ten women and two men. Well,

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Speaker 1: the jury was all white, mostly high school graduates, you know,

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Speaker 1: working class. I say, just a typical rural county jury.

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Speaker 1: Here's Bob Toy. Keith is sitting next to me, and

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Speaker 1: he looked at me and Bob, I was supposed to

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Speaker 1: have a jury of my peers. And I looked around

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Speaker 1: the room. I saw the white judge, I saw his

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Speaker 1: white lawyers. I saw the white prosecutor, saw the white jurors,

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Speaker 1: and I said, oh, Keith, baby, this is it. It's terrible.

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Speaker 1: Here's Judge Fred Crowe. Back then, there was several big

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Speaker 1: issues about blacks being excluded for whatever. Basically, the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: had to have a reasonable excuse a black jury. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember how many black jurors or were, if any,

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Speaker 1: I can't do there weren't any. It was an all

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Speaker 1: white jurry. Okay, So now I know, or now I

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Speaker 1: remember Arts County to be like other counties down there,

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Speaker 1: the percentage of blacks stuff that. Man. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well a man, I want to tell you so sure,

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Speaker 1: and not on anybody's business. But I just got off

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Speaker 1: while I was on the phone when you called. I

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Speaker 1: was I had a half back on blackball team high

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Speaker 1: school ball team who was black. Was just called and

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Speaker 1: told me he's getting divorced and he's seventy eight years old.

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Speaker 1: So at least I had one black Frank. It's June twentieth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five. The jury is seated, the prosecution begins

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Speaker 1: their case. The first witness they call is Sergeant Howard Hudson,

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Speaker 1: one of the investigators with the Ohio State Highway Patrol.

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Speaker 1: According to the trial transcripts, Sergeant Hudson testified that as

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Speaker 1: part of their initial search and processing of the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: they were around seventy five hundred photographs taken and over

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand pieces of evidence collected. When asked if any

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Speaker 1: of the physical evidence collected pointed to Keith Lamar, Sergeant

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Speaker 1: Hudson says, quote, there was no evidence that came back

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Speaker 1: conclusive that pointed to anybody. The evidence was largely contaminated.

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Hudson also says that after a certain number of

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Speaker 1: people were interviewed, he along with others, decided to charge

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Speaker 1: Keith Lamar with these killings. I remember a sergeant Hudson

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Speaker 1: I called sergeant zero because he had zero evidence. A

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Speaker 1: nice guy, but they really had no evidence besides a

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Speaker 1: bunch of snitches against Keith. It's just that simple. So

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Speaker 1: with no physical evidence, Bob and Hermann say, the prosecution's

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Speaker 1: case hinges on the testimony of fellow prisoners. What did

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Speaker 1: all of those witnesses have in common? Well, they had

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Speaker 1: done or participated to some level in the riot and

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Speaker 1: weren't being prosecuted for it. Two of them maybe did

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Speaker 1: have some minor charges filed, but no ways near what

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Speaker 1: they did. According to the trial transcripts, some witnesses receive

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Speaker 1: lesser sentences. It seems one witness is charged with the

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Speaker 1: murder than those charges are dropped and another witness is

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Speaker 1: never charged at all, although he admits a taking part

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Speaker 1: in at least one of the killings, one of the

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Speaker 1: same Keith is on trial for. It was people who

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Speaker 1: were paid to testify, paid by getting lesser sentence and

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Speaker 1: acquiring their testimony. That's what happened. Nevertheless, there are five

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Speaker 1: men who testify that Keith was involved in the L

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Speaker 1: six murders, All described in varying degrees of detail, how

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Speaker 1: Keith ordered and in some cases took part in the

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Speaker 1: killings of the so called snitches with the help of

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Speaker 1: his death squad. One of those death squad members is

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Speaker 1: Lewis Jones, also one of the prosecution's star witnesses. On

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Speaker 1: the stand, Lewis Jones claims when he, Keith and another

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Speaker 1: guy went inside L Block to check on their belongings

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Speaker 1: and then got stuck there, Keith came up with the

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Speaker 1: idea of how they could get back out to the yard.

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Speaker 1: I ask Keith about this. It was Jones testified that

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Speaker 1: you turned to him and said, hey, there's no point

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Speaker 1: in us being caught up in this. Let's kill the

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Speaker 1: snitches and then we can leave. It doesn't follow logically,

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Speaker 1: you know, Let's we don't want to have anything to

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Speaker 1: do with the ride, So let's kill people and so

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Speaker 1: we can be implicated in the ride. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: another thing too. If if I was responsible for the five,

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Speaker 1: that's why let me leave, because somebody we're going to

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Speaker 1: will be, you know, left hole in the back. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna let you kill these five people, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to let you leave, you know, because when at

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Speaker 1: some point this had to come to the end. They

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Speaker 1: wasn't intended for the riot to last forever. So at

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Speaker 1: some point somebody got an answer for these deaths. So

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Speaker 1: why let the guy who's responsible these deaths just get

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Speaker 1: up to walk out and leave, to leave us having

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Speaker 1: to explain? Yeah, you know, but none of those questions

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Speaker 1: were asked, None of those none of the subscripancies were

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Speaker 1: put to the jewelry. According to that Ohio State Highway

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Speaker 1: Patrol Index of Interviews, Lewis Jones was interviewed eleven times

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Speaker 1: after his initial statement. He was moved to another prison

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Speaker 1: closer to his family in Cleveland, and although Lewis Jones

287
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 1: admitted to taking part in at least one of the killings,

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Speaker 1: Jones was never indicted for anything that happened during the

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Speaker 1: uprising and is now out of prison. I'd like to

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Speaker 1: hear Jones's version of events, and have tried to track

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Speaker 1: him down with no luck. Next on the stand are

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Speaker 1: three men who were in that K block cell where

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Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver was murdered. They all say, again in varying

294
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Speaker 1: degrees of detail, that Keith accused Weaver of being a snitch.

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Speaker 1: Then Keith ordered for Weaver to be killed. Michael Childers,

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Speaker 1: one of the men who helped choke Weaver to death,

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Speaker 1: testifies that Keith threatened his life if he didn't jump

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Speaker 1: in and helped finish the job. On the stand, Childers

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Speaker 1: calls Keith quote an animal. On cross examination, Childers is

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Speaker 1: asked about a letter he wrote to prison officials not

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Speaker 1: long after the uprising, in which he said the FBI

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Speaker 1: had implanted a mini microphone under his scalp back in

303
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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. Childers verse says he doesn't recall the letter,

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Speaker 1: then he denies it altogether. Here's Herman Well. I praise

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00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: as serious questions as a competency and the veracity of

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Speaker 1: what weight can you give to somebody who believes that

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Speaker 1: he's had a chip in playing in his brain and

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Speaker 1: people are talking to him through it or communicating with

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Speaker 1: him through that. As part of his plea deal, Michael

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Speaker 1: children Is pleads guilty to involuntary manslaughter and is sentenced

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Speaker 1: five to twenty five years to run concurrent with the

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Speaker 1: one he was already serving, meaning no time is added

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Speaker 1: to a sentence. It seems Childrens is no longer incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: I've reached out to who I believe is him, but

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Speaker 1: have yet to hear back. Were any of the state's

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Speaker 1: witnesses believable? Not in my opinion particularly, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they just weren't in my opinion. I mean the death squad.

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Speaker 1: Initially nobody's identifying him, and all of a sudden they're

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Speaker 1: identifying him. Felt that they were lying, and they had

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Speaker 1: plenty of incentive to lie. I wonder what Judge Crowe

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Speaker 1: thinks about that. It seemed like most, if not all,

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Speaker 1: of the prosecution's witnesses got some sort of deal for

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Speaker 1: cooperating with the state, So that's probably true. I mean

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Speaker 1: that most of them did get something at all. That

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Speaker 1: happens all the time. Doesn't that muddy the waters? It does,

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Speaker 1: But most prosecutors will tell the jury we don't find

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Speaker 1: our witnesses in church, we find them in prison. And

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Speaker 1: that's very much true. If you eliminate the scumbags testimony

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Speaker 1: against all the scumbags, you would have a hard time

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Speaker 1: convicted anybody because they prosecutors don't choose their witness After all,

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Speaker 1: the prisoner witnesses testify. Prosecutors call a Louisville captain and

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Speaker 1: correct officer, an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper, and two

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Speaker 1: pathologists who performed the autopsies on the victims. Once again,

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Speaker 1: we can't forget the victims in all this. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: there are family members and friends out there who are

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Speaker 1: still grieving their loss. Although strangely, according to Keith, Herman,

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Speaker 1: Bob and Judge Crowe, none of the victims family members

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00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: ever came to court during that trial. There wasn't one

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00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: representative of any of those deceased inmates that shared up

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Speaker 1: That struck me as pretty odd. Nobody cared about the

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Speaker 1: five guys who got kids. The prosecution rests their case

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Speaker 1: on June twenty seventh. That afternoon, the defense begins presenting theirs.

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Speaker 1: They call four inmates who testify, in the early hours

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Speaker 1: of the uprising, they saw Keith out on the wreck yard.

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Speaker 1: The times varied, but they said he was out there

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Speaker 1: and he looked normal. One witness is asked if there

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00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 1: was blood or dirt on Keith. He says no. Then

348
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: they call William Gino Washington. He was in that K

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Speaker 1: block cell and witnessed the murder of Dennis Weaver. He

350
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Speaker 1: testifies that Keith had nothing to do with Dennis Weaver's death.

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Speaker 1: Then a bombshell drops during cross examination, Prosecutor Bill Anderson

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Speaker 1: says they have an audiotaped interview with Gino Washington that

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Speaker 1: contradicts his entire testimony. Here's Keith's defense attorney Herman Carson.

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Speaker 1: Excuse my language, but Bill Anderson was so excited, I

355
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: thought he was going to piss himself. Judge Crowe asks

356
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Speaker 1: for the jury to leave the courtroom. Then the roughly

357
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: twenty minute tape is played. On that tape and it's

358
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Speaker 1: all in the trial transcripts. Gino Washington is heard saying,

359
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: Keith and another guy ordered Dennis Weaver's murder. What were

360
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: you feeling and experiencing when you realize that they had

361
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: an interview that was basically impeaching your witness, Well, that

362
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: was fundamentally unfair they should have disclosed that he had

363
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: been listed as a witness back then. I believe their

364
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: view is, oh, we didn't know it's going to be exculpatory,

365
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, and which my views, that's a bunch of bullshit.

366
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Speaker 1: When the jury is brought back in, the prosecutor asks

367
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Speaker 1: Gino Washington about this. Washington says, in that taped interview,

368
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Speaker 1: investigators at the time we're trying to make him point

369
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Speaker 1: the finger at Keith and the other guy. He says,

370
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Speaker 1: he lied and told them what they wanted to hear,

371
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Speaker 1: because at the time, Gino was scheduled to appear in

372
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Speaker 1: front of the parole board, and investigators told him that

373
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Speaker 1: they wouldn't let him go until he was quote off investigation.

374
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Speaker 1: And today in court he says he's now telling the truth.

375
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Speaker 1: And here's another thing I find curious. William Bowling, the

376
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: main guy who strangled Dennis Weaver, never took the stand

377
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: for the prosecution or the defense. Remember, the state says

378
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: that Keith made William Bowling kill Dennis Weaver. So it

379
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: seems like it would have been a no brainer on

380
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: the part of the prosecution to have him take the

381
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: stand and point the finger at Keith. Right, So why

382
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: didn't they call him? Maybe the prosecution thought they didn't

383
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: need his testimony, or maybe they learned something that made

384
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: calling him to risky and could jeopardize their case. Back

385
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: to Gina Washington. After he testifies, the defense calls their

386
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: last witness to the stand, Keith Lamar. I decided earlone,

387
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: I was going to take the stand, something that I

388
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: was advised not to do by everybody, you know, but

389
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: I was determined to participate in every aspect of this process.

390
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: Here's Keith's defense attorney, Bob Toy. I believe that by

391
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: calling him it was not going to hurt his case. Okay,

392
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: it usually does, but we had a client who was

393
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: very unusual in reference to being articulate, intelligent. We thought

394
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: he could handle cross examination, and he did as best

395
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: he could. We were hoping it would help, could be

396
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: a last measure of just presenting a human being to

397
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: a jury. On the stand, Keith maintains his innocence. He

398
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: says he had nothing to do with the killings in

399
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: L Block and in K Block. He admits to Lyne

400
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: to investigators that he was asleep when Dennis Weaver was killed,

401
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: but he did not order Weaver's murder, nor did he

402
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: take part in it, and he has no words to

403
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: justify why he didn't stop it. On cross examination, prosecutor

404
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: Seth Tiger asks Keith about the testimonies given by the

405
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: state's witnesses. Keith says they all lied. Near the end,

406
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: Seth Tiger asks Keith, quote, do you like snitches? Keith responds, quote,

407
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: I don't trust snitches. Then Tiger asks what does it

408
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: feel like to have the power to order someone's death.

409
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: Keith answers, I couldn't tell you. I don't know if

410
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: I've ever asked you this before, but did you ever

411
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: have an issue or beef with snitches at Lucasville? But

412
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I don't want to be around

413
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: somebody who I can't trust. So it wasn't that a

414
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: blanket thing that I don't like snitches. I mean, who

415
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: who do you know black snitches? Do? I? Yeah, um no, no.

416
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: But not liking them and wanting to hurt them are

417
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: two different things. Well, I'm designsing you. Of course, the

418
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: leader of the quote unquote death squad, which they said

419
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: you were. This person led this group of men sell

420
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: to sell to kill the snitches. That is an intense

421
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: hatred for snitches, right, it's I don't know that it

422
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: actually had to be an intense hate with but it

423
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: had to be something that as an organization, whatever game

424
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: that you belong to, it's an organized dog. No, it's

425
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: a blanket artists or you know called the bay because

426
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: on a personal level, it's about this person snitched on me.

427
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: I was, I had drugs in my sale or whatever

428
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: the case may be. It don't that doesn't automatically, you know,

429
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: rise to the level of you killing five people. You know,

430
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: it's a blanket thing. And the only way you have

431
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: a blanket thing like that if it's a part of

432
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: the coals of the game that you are in. I

433
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: wasn't in the game. You see. That's the thing that

434
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: you know, people don't you know, That's what I'm talking about.

435
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: The nuance. You're saying that I came in and you

436
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: know as some kind of you know, you know, you

437
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: know long you know, uh say length and you know

438
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: on this you know, crusade to read the prisoner snitches.

439
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: If you don't do that as an individual, why would

440
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: I take on that as as a twenty three year

441
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: old man. That didn't happen On June twenty ninth, after

442
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: seven days of testimony, the case goes to the jury.

443
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: For this phase of the trial, they will be sequestered.

444
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: How did you feel as the jury was about to

445
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: go into deliberations. I didn't feel hopeful. There's no defense

446
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: I can really put up. Obviously I wasn't on the

447
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 1: other side, So there's nothing I completly say about it,

448
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: but that the witnesses to testified on my behalf. I

449
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: mean they can say is that they saw me on

450
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: the yard. So it was a lame defense compared to

451
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: what the state put forth. They put forth for a

452
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: cohesive argument and suppress anything that refute it. What they

453
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't to testify it too. It was laughable, you know, um,

454
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: although I didn't laugh. The next day the jury comes

455
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: back with its verdict. Keith has found guilty on all charges.

456
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: Do I think they had enough to convict them? Oh?

457
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: I dog people, you know, you know people, it was

458
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: just shopping at the bit, you know, to return the

459
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: guilty but and it wasn't. It's about to ride. You

460
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: can remember also that you know, this is Radwin oj Simpson,

461
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, murdering two white people in California, magively. You know,

462
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: Rodney Key, all that happened. You know, all that stuff

463
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: was swallows around at that time, you know. So it's

464
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: a real racial climate where this happened, you know, and

465
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: so you know, all those things I think ultimately meditators

466
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 1: against me. You know, I was guilty at the moment.

467
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: I had to manage it well. Next jurors will hear

468
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: the mitigating evidence, or evidence that makes the case for

469
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: sparing Keith's life and not giving him the death penalty.

470
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: Called to testify are some of Keith's family members and

471
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: two experts who talk about the intense challenges Keith faced

472
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: during his childhood, especially the mental and physical abuse at

473
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: the hands of his stepfather, Larry, and the emotional unavailability

474
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: of his mother, and how all of that and more

475
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: led Keith, like so many others who grow up in

476
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: a similar situation, to be vulnerable to adopting a new

477
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: set of values, like the values of the streets. On

478
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: July seventh, the jury returns its sentencing recommendation. They unanimously

479
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: recommend the death penalty for four of the murders and

480
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: life with the possibility of parole after thirty years for

481
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: the fifth. But it's not over just yet. Judge Crowe

482
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: has the ultimate say on whether or not he'll take

483
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: the jury's recommendation. So on August twenty first, all reconvene

484
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: one last time. This day is like no other because

485
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: I came onto the court room and it's just full

486
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: then the Rome only all white people. Nobody attain to trial.

487
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: They had all evidence at all his witnesses. Nobody gave

488
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: a damn about that. You know, but somebody's about to

489
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: be sensive to death. You know, this was a lynching.

490
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: And I'm telling you I came out in his court

491
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: orone and it was just it was a small court

492
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: orone body, you know, you know what a city capacity

493
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: boy about thirty people, forty people, not know, but it

494
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: felt like it was like two hundred people cramped into

495
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: this play. They sold up, they showed up, Leah I'm

496
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: talking about. And was the most unnerving thing. It was

497
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: the most evil thing I've ever felt on seeing in

498
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: my life because I knew why they were there. Before

499
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: Judge Crowe renders his decision, Keith is allowed to address

500
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: the court. Here is part of his videotaped statement, the

501
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: only part of the trial that was recorded. The quality

502
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: isn't good, but I think it's important to hear Keith

503
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety five, just moments before he's about

504
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: to learn his face. By the way, you can go

505
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: to the Real Killer podcast Instagram page to watch this video.

506
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: Every man must be here common before it was actually

507
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: approved of day nineteen eighty eight, I was called students

508
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: to jurity my ur stuff because of my ashton I

509
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: played KiB was sensens to two years imprisonment. In nineteen

510
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: eighty nine. Cute man by name Kenya compons because my

511
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: ashes are played him. I'm sensor to return of eighteen.

512
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: It's a lot of prisoner. Nineteen ninety four, I was

513
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: charted nine content aggivated murder death pending special cases. But

514
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: because my aster that I killed and I placed my

515
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: life and handled prosecute me. Every man must be able

516
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: common silly man. We shot a unjust system. I don't

517
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: want to sound like I'm disrespecting any one or even

518
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: disrespect for myself. I'm number who sett my sin or

519
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: a little mysel. Oh bye, just something I don't believe,

520
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: and I don't believing what took place in Score prosecuted

521
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: he everything he coached, wits and whoever they would be able.

522
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: Common said. Apparently Keith's statement makes no impact on Judge

523
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: Crowe because moments later he upholds the jury's recommendation and

524
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: sentences Keith to death. Here's Judge Crowe. I was nervous

525
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: and didn't want to do it, and that's a pretty

526
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: to me. I thought I'd have no trouble, but actually

527
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: came down to it and bothered me. He was a gentleman,

528
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: and I kind of liked the action hotel, and that's

529
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: what made it hard to render the verdict. That's what

530
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: I did. I like Keith. I'm curious. You don't have

531
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: to accept the jury's recommendation for the death penalty, right,

532
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: you could shoot, So why did you? Because the aggravating

533
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: circumstances were certainly outweighed of mitigating situation. When you get

534
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: involved in killing five people, that's pretty aggravating to me.

535
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: And you believed in his guilt. You still believe in

536
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: his guilt. Yes. In twenty eleven, Judge Crowe retired, citing

537
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: issues with his health. According to The Athens News, there

538
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 1: were rumors that the Ohio Supreme Court's Office of Disciplinary

539
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: Council had been looking into Judge Crowe's performance on the bench.

540
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: When a representative for the Disciplinary Council was asked whether

541
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: or not Judge Crowe was a subject of any sort

542
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: of investigation, he said he would not comment. I read

543
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: that there were some rumors about the Ohio Supreme Courts Office.

544
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: The Disciplinary Council was looking at your at your record.

545
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: Can you tell me anything about that would have nothing

546
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: to do with my conduct of the any trial? But

547
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: yes they did. I had a couple of awful employees

548
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: that tried to get me in trouble, which nothing came

549
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: of us. But nothing to do with any case I

550
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: had before or after any case, nothing to do with

551
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: any of my judicial decisions that I could think of.

552
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: The Athens Knew said that they were looking at your

553
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: performance on the bench. Well, they were looking at my

554
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: conduct and uh, but it had nothing to do with

555
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: any rulings made in reference to a major trial. Was

556
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: put that way? What it was, if you want to know, Delegate,

557
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: part about it was that commissioner's wife when I had

558
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: a crush on me once upon a time, and a

559
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: commissioner storted that he's the one I told the papers

560
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: about the big investigation of the judge. It was bad publicity.

561
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: I mean, they didn't have any charges or anything they said.

562
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: Any big investigations on mount doesn't have anything to do

563
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: with the rulings, that being prejudice against anybody or anything

564
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: like that. When I tell Keith that I spoke with

565
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: Judge Crow, I'm so he said it's a fair trial

566
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: and everything. Huh oh, well yes, um oh that's what

567
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: he's saying. They have them evidence with overwhelming Yeah. He

568
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: also said that he liked you. You know, I'm not.

569
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not laughing like you know, like I'm

570
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: enjoying what you're saying. This is absurd, man, It's just

571
00:39:53,360 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: like these fucking people man, you know, my god, there's

572
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: too much man, you know. And this person you know,

573
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: to sit somewhere wherever the fuck he's sitting at right now,

574
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: Judge Crow, I'm trying to say that he really liked me. No,

575
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: that he you know, you know, you know I don't.

576
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: You don't imagine how many times I don't heard ship

577
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: like that for somebody who just put my toothbrush in

578
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: their ass, or you can do my meal and the talling,

579
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And the same person I

580
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about you know what I

581
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: mean about your family, how your mother doing. No these

582
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: fucking people based on there. Yeah, I'm just previously. You

583
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: know I've already battled. I'm in the court room. I'm

584
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety five. I'm sitting in this court room.

585
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: I'm just envisioning this ship. I came in this court room.

586
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: I was defended. We wasn't friends and sit down and

587
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: exchange words that they're listening to. Washington fucked me over.

588
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: That's and he liked me. He's like, you know what,

589
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: court woul you was here. We wasn't in no fucking picnic,

590
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: sitting in no motherfucking resting rock Charon and meal. You

591
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: was sucking me up. My life. You're taking my life,

592
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I get mad because you

593
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: know I did take to see it personal, because you know,

594
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: how can I not. Here's Keith's attorney, Bob Toy. We

595
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: did the best we could with what we had, is

596
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: what I've believed. I gave him my whole heart, and

597
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: I know Herman did too. I have a picture of Keith, myself, Herman,

598
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: and our intern Molly waiting for the death verdict. It's

599
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: across me in a little counter and I put it

600
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: up there front and center. Oh, I've used it many times.

601
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: I said, hey, you don't have to listen to what

602
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: I say, and if you want to go to trial,

603
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: we'll go to trial. And I say, this guy went

604
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: to trial. And sometimes we give people advice they don't

605
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: listen to, and sometimes not for a good reason. Keith

606
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: had a good reason. This reason is he said he

607
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 1: didn't do it. And you know, over the years, you'll

608
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: look back at it going, oh my god. I don't

609
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: think they had enough evidence and I don't think he

610
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: did do it. So that's where you're at. And should

611
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: they have convicted him based upon what they had in

612
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: the manner in which they did it. No. I reached

613
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: out to prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson to see

614
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: if they'd be willing to talk with me. Seth Tiger

615
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: called me back and left me this message. Heymis Rothman.

616
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: This is Seth Tiger from the Hamilton County prosecutor. I

617
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: was one of the prosecutors on the Keith Lamar Lucastil

618
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: prison riot case. I've talked to Bill Anderson, who's also

619
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: a Hamilton County prosecutor, and we were co prosecutors on

620
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: that case, on the Keith Lamar case, anyway, we are

621
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: not interested in getting involved in your investigation or podcast,

622
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: So anyway else is going to let you know that

623
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: thanks to the call, and anyway, that's it. Thanks. I'm

624
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: going to keep trying, but you should know that. Seth

625
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: Tiger did talk to The New York Times for a

626
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: February twenty twenty two article they did on Keith in

627
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: his case. In it, Tiger said this quote, we turned

628
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: over everything that we were required to under the rules

629
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: of discovery to Bill and I. He is extremely guilty.

630
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: He is where he belongs on death row. I did

631
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 1: speak on the phone with Sergeant Howard Hudson, who testified

632
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: at Keith's trial and was very hands on in the

633
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: investigation for the Ohio State Highway Patrol. At first he

634
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: agreed to participate, then he started following me on Instagram.

635
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks later, he texted me this quote,

636
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I've changed my mind and no longer wish

637
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: to participate. By the way, the real killers at Lucasville

638
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: are the ones we convicted. So with a trial over,

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00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: Keith is transported to a prison in Mansfield, Ohio on

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00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: my ride from Lucasville's Mansfield. I think I just doubled

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00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: down in terms of my attitude that I would resist

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00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: this whole process. And I didn't know obviously what shape

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00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: that would take, but I knew that I was going

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00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: to fight. When they brought me off the van that

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00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: day and was about to walk me to the death

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00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: row unit, I stopped walking. And I don't know what

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00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: made me do that. It just seemed like if I

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00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: was going to fight them, that I might as well

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00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: start right now. And I just stopped walking. And you know,

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00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: the guards, you know everybody, they seem confused, like why

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00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: aren't you walking? And you know I'm innocence. Next time

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00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm the real killer. But I tell you what, if

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00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: I one day found myself strapped to a journey, if

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00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: these people will not be able to call it justice,

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00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: will not be able to say that we did right

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00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: by this person, a chance at a new trial goes

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00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: up in Flames, I remember, and walking past me on

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00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: his way out of the courtroom, I mean he said,

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00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: good lucky. And for Keith, desperate times call for desperate measures.

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00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: It puts you through all this bull shit, and you

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00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: if you get angry. See, that's proof that he's an animal. No,

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00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: that's proof that I'm a human being, that this shit

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00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: hurt if the ship you're doing to me is painful.

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Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,

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00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and

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00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive

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00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George

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00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: fam Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and

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00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 1: mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio

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00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: engineering by Anna Moolshan. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas,

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Speaker 1: Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard