WEBVTT - The Karol Markowicz Show: Cancel Culture with Ilya Shapiro 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.760 Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:15.000 Mondays are the worst days for airing podcasts. I only 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.439 found this out after I chose Mondays and Thursdays as 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.600 the days my podcast would be on. But I've kept 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.800 it on Mondays because this is a show about life 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.600 and about making your life better. And I see every 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.400 Monday as a mini New Year's Day where you can 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.640 start over, try harder, be better. I started this year 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.120 pledging to read more fiction because it keeps me from 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.400 doom scrolling as much, and it helps me sleep better 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.159 and all of it, really and I did it for 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.240 like six weeks, really into like the middle of February. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.720 I read a lot of fiction, and then work got busy. 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.560 Life got busy, and I kept carrying my fiction book 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.840 around on flights to the beach to bed at night, 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.480 but not actually read. So here I am on Monday, 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.919 in the middle of April, starting my New Year's resolution again. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.440 I'm going to pledge to read a fiction book a 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.039 month through the end of the year. That's not some 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.039 wild goal. I should be able to meet it. I mean, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.119 I keep pledging to go to the gym, but that 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.600 hasn't happened yet, So baby steps. People. If you have 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.720 fiction book suggestions, send them my way. And if you're 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.759 interested in restarting the new year's resolution that you maybe 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.240 fell off from doing, I'd love to hear about it 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.479 at Carol Maarkowitz Show at gmail dot com or hit 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.200 me up on Twitter x, whatever you want to call it. 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.600 The best tip on how to improve your life is 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.360 to take the steps you already know will improve your 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.199 life and actually do them. So let's do this coming 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.400 up next and interview with Ilia Shapiro. Join us after 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:45.880 the break. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.720 Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.840 guest today is Ilia Shapiro, Senior Fellow and Director of 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:01.800 Constitutional Studies at the Manhattan Institute. He was previously executive 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.840 director and senior lecturer at the Georgetown Center for the Constitution. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.560 His upcoming book, out September tenth, is called Lawless, The 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.680 Miseducation of America's Elites, and is available for pre order now. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:16.480 Hi, Alia, so nice to have you on. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.920 It'd be with you. But I thought you said in 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.000 the show notes that you sent me that that we 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:23.919 were going to be doing this in Russian. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.280 Y Paruski yam. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.600 And actually and actually, now that you're in Florida, babolon 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:35.280 and espanols. 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:37.200 No, no, no, let's not get crazy. 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.680 I took four years of high school Spanish, and it 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.160 turns out I don't know anything like I thought i'd. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.320 Be ready for a Florida experience. 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.320 I mean, it's not like we're, you know, in a 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.519 full on Spanish speaking country and no I don't know anything. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:50.360 It turns out. 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.680 Well, you know, you know, we can get into this. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.000 You and I of course recently went to Israel, where 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.200 the rule is you need to know two of three 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.960 of Hebrew, English and Russian, and so we've got that 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.160 covered well. Similarly, I think I think in Florida are 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.919 certain parts I think you need two of three of English, 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:07.760 Spanish and Russian. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:09.120 So that's right. Yeah. 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:13.160 I did actually amazing in Israel, like my I took. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.880 So I went to Hebrew school from first grade through 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.959 eighth grade, and it turns out that I retained which 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.840 really says a lot about you know, the earlier you 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.200 learn a language, the better. Because I could totally hang 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.919 in Israel, and I kept giving credit to my Israeli husband. 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.520 I'd be like, oh, you know, yeah, I'm married to Israeli. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.639 He didn't teach me anything, like it's not from him, 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.440 it's from my early schooling. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.800 Well, you know, yeah, I grew up speaking Russia at 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.240 home but didn't have any Hebrews. Why I still don't 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.360 speak I only speak easy languages, like I'm not about 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:47.920 to pick up Arabic or Chinese. But I do all 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:49.840 the romance once because they're all variations on a theme. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:51.840 Because I went to a high school that had first 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:53.640 couple years a lot and then you know, building up 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.200 the French and Spanish and spending time there. Right, But 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.040 I'm going to Hungary in a couple of weeks. But 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.960 you know that's not related to anything like a regular 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.000 all American as if I was, you know, only spoke 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.200 one language. It's a little when I. 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.400 Was in So on the way to Israel, I stopped 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.600 in Warsaw for the day, So Poland, and my mom 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.480 was like, do not speak Russian there? They do not 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.720 like Russians. I'm like, yes, I heard, I heard. 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:16.760 But although I heard a. 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.080 Lot of people speaking Russian and Ukrainian that was like 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:21.359 really common in the short. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.760 What was amusing about that little stop off for you 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.159 was of course, you know, your last name is Polish 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.520 and your first name is a Polish man's name. So 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.320 do you have any any just just giggles from the 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.719 hotel check in or what else happened? 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.680 They were like, your Carol Mark Woods. I guess I 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.839 am Carol Mark Woods. Yeah it was, you know, my 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:43.200 parents accidentally gave me a Polish man's name, which was 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.040 the name, of course, of John Paul, Pope John Paul 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.080 his real name. He messed up all my Google results. 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.440 Used to be you could google just my first name 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.160 and get me. But then after he passed, you know, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:55.760 he became number one Carol. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.640 Wait, so you're saying that you were more famous. You 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.839 were more famous Carol for the Pope died. 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.400 I just think a lot of people didn't call him 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.560 Carol on the internet, you know, and then when he died, 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.479 everybody was like they used his you know, given name 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:11.320 in the obituaries whatever. 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.280 It like fully messed me up. And there's also now no. 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.039 No, what I'm getting from this is Carol thinks she's 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.560 more famous than the Pope. Okay, got it. I'm running 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:19.760 with it. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.920 Briefly, Briefly I was more famous than the Pope. And 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:27.320 now there's a a Latin American singer also named Carol 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.040 with a K, and she totally messes up my results. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:31.400 But you know, what are you going to do? 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:31.719 Ilia? 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.440 Right? Yeah? Yeah? 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.200 Isn't there another Ilia? There is? Ilia? 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:38.239 I mean there are many alias as you know, Ilia 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.680 for boys in our world. 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:43.600 Isn't there another Ilia in our world? 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:43.919 Ilia? 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:48.479 There's another law professor Ilia Sliman. Yes, right, yeah, he's 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.400 the smart one. I'm the funny one. That's the division 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.279 of labor. Also, we're nothing like the handsome one. 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:53.960 The hand. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.400 Well, we can also do, you know, short and tall 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:02.880 and all this, but the the the you totally broke 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.520 my train of thought. It left the station and got derailed. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.320 H lats civilias you know. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.280 Players, but the anyway, all right, let's go back. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.360 We'll come back to your hilarious jokes since. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.560 You're funnier hilarious. Yes, yes, well, Actually, how I make 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.920 my living is that I occupy that thin sliver and 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.279 the then diagress. There's a lot of people who know 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.920 more about constitutional law than I do, a hell of 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:30.720 a lot of people who are funnier than I am. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.360 But I occupy that thin sliver where those overlap. It's 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:35.200 a living Yeah. 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:36.599 I mean that's the way to go about it. 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:39.800 I think, you know, you represent that that tiny little 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:40.599 gaza strip. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.560 Okay, you can say that. I couldn't possibly comment. 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.840 Anything goes on on the Carol Markowitz Show. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.360 So you and I were in Israel. It was a 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.600 great time, a. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.039 Sad time, a difficult time. It was a lot of 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.080 things intense, right, But I think that that's what Israel is, right. 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.839 It's it's like they have a lot going on, good 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:05.120 and bad all the time. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.039 Like I hadn't been since two thousand and seven, so 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:13.120 it's you know, different country, even even without October seventh. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:15.920 I wouldn't say that it's always intense. I mean these 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.320 are you know, real people, living real lives, having you know, 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.720 normal ups and downs, and apparently happier than almost anybody 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.840 in the world. Well that makes sense, yeah, and with 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.520 a higher birth rate than anybody else in the industrialized world. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.320 So they're doing something right. And even though they're you know, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.160 smaller than New Jersey and with enemies armed to the 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:41.040 teeth around everywhere. It's it's an internal divisions that sometimes 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.520 make the divisions with its external enemies seem like you know, 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:49.080 powderpuff football. So there's just a society of contrast such 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.120 richness in such a small place. I you know, I 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.720 enjoyed it tremendously and I'm still processing it still, haven't. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.120 You know. I posted on my sub stack Shapiro's gavel 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.040 while I was there, kind of various kinds of impressions. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.240 I still haven't written my piece, you know, what I 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.080 learned about, what I learned from in my trip to 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:08.720 Israel that I'm going to write for the City Journal. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.920 Just just remarkable stuff, but whether geopolitically or sociologically or 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.760 or anything. And just the way that we were able 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.680 to be based in a nice hotel in Tel Aviv 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.320 and go to the farthest north, you know, ten feet 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.240 from the Lebanese border, and down south you know, less 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.520 than half a mile or so from Gaza and the 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.680 massacre sites and all that, and then still, you know, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.520 return home for happy hour for the hotel. Just right, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:34.319 just amazing. 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:35.320 Yeah. 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.520 I feel like that's kind of always been my feeling 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:39.080 on Israel. 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.760 It's so it's got just so much going on, and 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:43.800 it is a real place. 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.880 It's super a real place, which I think gets lost 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.120 in all the news of it because you see it 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.040 as this, you know, historic country, and when you walk 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.320 around Jerusalem, you do feel like you're like in a 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.640 story book or you're, you know, maybe possibly the most 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.240 famous story book of all time, the Bible. I think 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:06.120 that you feel that, you know, sense of history there. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:07.839 But then you're in Tel Aviv and you're at like 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:13.040 the hottest restaurant and you're eating this unbelievable innovative food. 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.200 It was just it's a country of contradictions. I think 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.680 that that gets used a lot. And I really felt 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.720 that this time more than on previous visits because we 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.720 got to see so many different facets of it. But 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.840 you know, like I definitely I've been thinking about it 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:31.240 so much. 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:32.280 When I landed. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.080 I don't know if the guy said this to you, 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.200 but like when I landed last time I was there 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.280 was twenty eleven, and the guy, the border you know, 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.560 agent in Israel is like, why has it been so long? 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:45.880 Like why haven't you been back? 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:47.680 And I, you know, I started telling him like, no, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:49.320 I had a wedding. We were supposed to come in 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.400 twenty twenty, we were supposed to come last year. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:52.640 It didn't work at whatever. 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.800 He doesn't really care but the sense of like, why 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:56.960 have you been away so long? 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.840 Was I had an interesting exchange with the with the 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.719 customs agent as well. She said, you know what you 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.520 what are you here for? And I said, well, it's 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.800 like a media influencer's tour. And she kind of smiled 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.360 and nodded because a lot of people are going through 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.120 and that sort of thing. And she said, oh, so 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.520 where are you going And I said, well, everywhere, you know, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.319 to the north, to the south Jerusalem, and she's like, oh, well, 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.120 we're up north and I'm like, I'm not sure. Do 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:21.720 you want to see my tenerary And she's like, no, no, no, 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.920 I just want you to be safe because there's fingers 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.280 out there. And remember that was the day that we 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.040 had to put on helmets and flat jackets and there 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.559 was eight missiles that morning and there was touch and 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.040 go whether we could make it there. So she was, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:36.040 you know, just just caring about the media influencers safety. Nice. 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.120 Yeah, yeah, there's so much of that. 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.960 I just feel like it's very homey and it's a 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.640 really great country. I think, you know, whether you're Jewish 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.720 or not, I think visiting Israel is really an amazing trip. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.319 And I highly recommend people listening make that trip. You know, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.480 it seems like it's so dangerous, but it's really not. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.480 When you're there, you feel complete safety, complete security. 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.559 And it's anywhere you go, whatever kind of whatever kind 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.760 of tour group you you go with. Uh, you know, 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.079 the the army briefs them and they're not going to 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:08.559 take you to places, you know, like we had to 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.400 change our plans in Jerusalem because of the biggest red 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.000 alert in decades over the first Friday at Ramadan since 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.840 since uh, since October. So so I mean it's it's uh, 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.120 you're probably in more danger, you know, getting in a 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.960 car and driving around d C. Than the Israel. 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.560 So, you know, you've had an exciting couple of years. 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.160 You were very Chinese curse may you live in interesting times. 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.719 You have lived in interesting times. You were very famously canceled. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.160 They tried to cancel me. You cancel me, I cancel you. 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.880 Yeah, they can't cancel ilia. Okay, they tried to cancel you. 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.040 But you know, one of the themes on this show 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.560 is like that some of your hardest times can obviously 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:50.960 lead to some of your best times. 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.920 And you do seem like you won. 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.480 You're thriving and you're doing amazing. But what was it 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.000 like in the moment, like did you feel did you 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.040 feel like you would recover? 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.120 Did you feel like you'd come back stronger than ever? 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:04.960 Or were there dark times? 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:05.480 Well? 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:07.439 Do you want to tell us about it a little bit, 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.040 like just you know, just in passing. 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:09.760 It doesn't have to be the. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.440 Yeah, yeah, no. I sketched this out on my on 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.600 my substack Shapiro's gabble, come subscribe free or paid or whatever. 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:20.200 Uh, and the man pay the man do it right, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.480 that's right, And in more detail in my book that 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.360 that you graciously plugged at the at the outset Lawless. 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:31.200 It's coming out in September. So I had this when 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:35.760 when Justice Bryer retired. I was doing media all day 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.880 because that's what I do, that's my area of expertise. 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.440 I had written a book about Supreme Court politics and traditional nominations. Uh, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.680 and I was getting more and more upset about President 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.440 Biden keeping to his campaign pledge to appoint a black woman, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.840 that is, to restrict his candidates by race and sex. 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.000 And so after you know, doing all this stuff all day, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.480 and I was in Austin, Texas at a friend's Celebritory dinner. 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.199 Came back to my hotel and you know, not a 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.200 best practice. Doom scrolling late at night in your hotel room, 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.079 getting more and more upset on Twitter, and I fired 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:11.880 off a hot take saying that you know, if I 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.280 were a Democratic president, I would pick U. And I 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.640 chose the chief Judge of the d C Circuit, very 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.200 prestigious court, very smart man, Sreese Ri Navas and great, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.480 great judge was a contender for previous vacancies. But this time, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.440 because of the hierarchy of intersectionality, he's excluded, even though 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.319 he's an Indian American and an immigrant checks off lots 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:33.640 of boxes, but not these ones. 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.040 So I said, had promised that it would be a 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:36.600 black woman. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:40.160 That's right, that's right, Yeah, that's right. And I said, so, 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.319 you know, he's just qualified, so we will we will 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.920 end up with a lesser black woman. It's really those 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.600 three works. You know, I met less qualified. You know, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.520 by by basic operation of logic, I'm saying this person 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.200 is the best. Everyone else in the entire universe is 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:54.720 worse or less or less qualified. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:54.960 Whatever. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.520 Anyway, So I fired that off, went to sleep, woke 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.160 up the next morning, checked my Twitter feed and all 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.920 I had broken loose and people were trying to get 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.439 me fired. Mind you, because I was moving to Georgetown. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.360 I had been at CATO for nearly fifteen years. The 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.160 CATO is leading libertarian thing tank. If I had still 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.000 just been at CATO, you know, you know, people to 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.439 know more right wing nonsense whatever, blah blah. But because 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.800 I was trying to intrude on a progressive bastion Georgetown 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.880 Law School, people trying to get me canceled and fired 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:26.840 and all the rest of it. And so began my 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:31.520 four days of hell. It was really the most unpleasant 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.240 period of my life, other than when my mom died 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.280 when I was in college. I said, it's the second 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.600 most unpleasant period of my life. You know. I couldn't sleep, 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.960 the gastro intestinal issues, My wife was upset. My kids 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.600 could tell that mommy and Daddy weren't weren't happy. You know. 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.280 It felt like everything I had worked towards in my 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.280 entire life, the sacrifices that my parents had made, and 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.080 coming over from the Soviet Union, everything was crumbling because 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:04.160 of a badly worded tweet. And luckily I have a 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:09.600 big enough network of pr professionals and crisis management and 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:14.960 media personalities that could platform me and my story that 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.920 I survived those first four days, at which point the Dean, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.520 who is you know, no profile encouraged throughout this whole thing, 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.880 decided that I would indeed be on board it because 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.280 it was four days later that I was supposed to 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.800 start with the new jobs as a director of the 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.000 Center for the Constitution, which is an important center at 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.600 George Town, as we've learned, because the rest of the 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.880 law school is the Center against the Constitution. So I 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.360 was onboarded, but immediately suspended, placed on administrative leave with pay. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.480 The reason why they kept paying me was so I 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:50.040 would have less of a lawsuit later on. And so 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.400 began after the four days of hell, what I referred 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.600 to us four months of purgatory. Initially I was taking 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:57.920 it seriously. I was prepping with my lawyer, you know, 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.240 the interview with the DEI on and HR and all 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.520 this stuff. But then it became clear that it was 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.560 just such a farce, and as time went on, I 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.720 went back to commenting on the court and commenting on 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.120 judicial politics and all the rest of it. And it 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.560 took them more than four months to figure out whether 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:21.640 my tweet violated policies on harassment and discrimination, and ultimately, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.240 a junior associate at the high paid law firm Wilmer 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.440 Hale that they hired to advise them on this, how 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.160 many millions of dollars they expended on this is really funny, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.560 discovered that I was not yet an employee when I tweeted, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.560 and so it wasn't covered by these policies, And so 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.120 I celebrated that technical victory. But then I read the 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.960 longer report from the DEI office, which Georgetown is called 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.040 the Office of Institutional Diversity, Equity and Affirmative Action Idea, 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.760 and it became clear that it would be untenable for 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.840 me to stay, not just me, but anybody who they wrote, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.720 anybody who says or write something that offends someone what 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.680 would effectively be creating a hostile educational environment. So I 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.960 could do the job that I was hired to do, 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.680 and as one does, I probably did my best lawyering 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.399 of my life and putting together this resignation letter and 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.840 then published it in the Wall Street Journal opinion page, 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.720 and then the next day announced as one does, and 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.160 asked my move to the Manhattan Institute on Nelson Show 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:31.159 on Fox. So that was, yes, an interesting period in 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:31.800 my life. 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.880 We're going to take a quick break and be right 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:35.440 back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.000 Did you feel fully victorious like doing that? I must 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:42.800 have felt so good. 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.399 You know, they went through four months, they tried to 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.760 kill you, they didn't and and it must have felt 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.080 amazing to say, now I don't want to be with 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:52.760 you now. 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.560 I'm not exactly this is what I'm saying. I mean, 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.320 I feel a little sheepish in front of the rest 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.399 of Georgetown's faculty and staff because they started implementing extra 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.040 diversity trainings because of me, so they have to do it. 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.520 I'll deal with all this crap. But no, I felt 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.440 I felt free for the first time. Again. Nothing was 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.240 as bad as those first four days, but I just 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.359 felt free and liberated, and especially since I had the 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.359 job offer in hand. The Riihan Salaam, the president of 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.760 m I, and Alana Golan, who was the executive VP, 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:32.200 over the course of a weekend put together an offer 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:36.200 for me, which was very comforting because because even though 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.920 theoretically I knew I would have job opportunities and whatnot, 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.640 it was nice when I was resigning to actually have 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.600 the next thing in place, absolutely family safety and all 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.920 the rest of it. But yeah, for the first time 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.560 in over four months, I was in control of the 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.000 media cycle, and Georgetown could not respond because they're a 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.480 big institution. They can't move that nimbly, and they didn't 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.879 have a they didn't have a coordinated mess and so 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.680 I was doing all of these you know, radio and 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.879 TV and whatever for two weeks right at the end 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.920 of the Supreme Court term, when I was also commenting 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.000 on the big explosive cases in twenty twenty two, and 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.840 then I went on a vacation with my family. So 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:18.240 it was felt liberating. In fact, that first day, the 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.760 day I resigned, that evening, I went to a reception 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.840 at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation Museum in DC, 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.160 which everyone should check out when you come to these 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.000 great museum, and they had these name tags made up, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.080 and of course, mindset Georgetown is when I'd registered, so 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.840 I crossed that out and I wrote in Freeman. 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:39.520 Amazing, it was great. 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:44.280