1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Mondays are the worst days for airing podcasts. I only 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: found this out after I chose Mondays and Thursdays as 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: the days my podcast would be on. But I've kept 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: it on Mondays because this is a show about life 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: and about making your life better. And I see every 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Monday as a mini New Year's Day where you can 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: start over, try harder, be better. I started this year 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: pledging to read more fiction because it keeps me from 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: doom scrolling as much, and it helps me sleep better 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: and all of it, really and I did it for 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: like six weeks, really into like the middle of February. 13 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: I read a lot of fiction, and then work got busy. 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: Life got busy, and I kept carrying my fiction book 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: around on flights to the beach to bed at night, 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: but not actually read. So here I am on Monday, 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,919 Speaker 1: in the middle of April, starting my New Year's resolution again. 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to pledge to read a fiction book a 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: month through the end of the year. That's not some 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: wild goal. I should be able to meet it. I mean, 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: I keep pledging to go to the gym, but that 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: hasn't happened yet, So baby steps. People. If you have 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: fiction book suggestions, send them my way. And if you're 24 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: interested in restarting the new year's resolution that you maybe 25 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: fell off from doing, I'd love to hear about it 26 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: at Carol Maarkowitz Show at gmail dot com or hit 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: me up on Twitter x, whatever you want to call it. 28 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: The best tip on how to improve your life is 29 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: to take the steps you already know will improve your 30 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: life and actually do them. So let's do this coming 31 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: up next and interview with Ilia Shapiro. Join us after 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: the break. 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: guest today is Ilia Shapiro, Senior Fellow and Director of 35 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: Constitutional Studies at the Manhattan Institute. He was previously executive 36 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: director and senior lecturer at the Georgetown Center for the Constitution. 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: His upcoming book, out September tenth, is called Lawless, The 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: Miseducation of America's Elites, and is available for pre order now. 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: Hi, Alia, so nice to have you on. 40 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 4: It'd be with you. But I thought you said in 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 4: the show notes that you sent me that that we 42 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 4: were going to be doing this in Russian. 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: Y Paruski yam. 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 4: And actually and actually, now that you're in Florida, babolon 45 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 4: and espanols. 46 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 3: No, no, no, let's not get crazy. 47 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: I took four years of high school Spanish, and it 48 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: turns out I don't know anything like I thought i'd. 49 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: Be ready for a Florida experience. 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like we're, you know, in a 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: full on Spanish speaking country and no I don't know anything. 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: It turns out. 53 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 4: Well, you know, you know, we can get into this. 54 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 4: You and I of course recently went to Israel, where 55 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 4: the rule is you need to know two of three 56 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 4: of Hebrew, English and Russian, and so we've got that 57 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 4: covered well. Similarly, I think I think in Florida are 58 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 4: certain parts I think you need two of three of English, 59 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: Spanish and Russian. 60 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: So that's right. Yeah. 61 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: I did actually amazing in Israel, like my I took. 62 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: So I went to Hebrew school from first grade through 63 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 2: eighth grade, and it turns out that I retained which 64 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: really says a lot about you know, the earlier you 65 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: learn a language, the better. Because I could totally hang 66 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: in Israel, and I kept giving credit to my Israeli husband. 67 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: I'd be like, oh, you know, yeah, I'm married to Israeli. 68 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: He didn't teach me anything, like it's not from him, 69 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: it's from my early schooling. 70 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 4: Well, you know, yeah, I grew up speaking Russia at 71 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 4: home but didn't have any Hebrews. Why I still don't 72 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 4: speak I only speak easy languages, like I'm not about 73 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 4: to pick up Arabic or Chinese. But I do all 74 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 4: the romance once because they're all variations on a theme. 75 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 4: Because I went to a high school that had first 76 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 4: couple years a lot and then you know, building up 77 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 4: the French and Spanish and spending time there. Right, But 78 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 4: I'm going to Hungary in a couple of weeks. But 79 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 4: you know that's not related to anything like a regular 80 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 4: all American as if I was, you know, only spoke 81 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 4: one language. It's a little when I. 82 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: Was in So on the way to Israel, I stopped 83 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: in Warsaw for the day, So Poland, and my mom 84 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: was like, do not speak Russian there? They do not 85 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: like Russians. I'm like, yes, I heard, I heard. 86 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: But although I heard a. 87 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: Lot of people speaking Russian and Ukrainian that was like 88 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 2: really common in the short. 89 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 4: What was amusing about that little stop off for you 90 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 4: was of course, you know, your last name is Polish 91 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 4: and your first name is a Polish man's name. So 92 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 4: do you have any any just just giggles from the 93 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 4: hotel check in or what else happened? 94 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: They were like, your Carol Mark Woods. I guess I 95 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: am Carol Mark Woods. Yeah it was, you know, my 96 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: parents accidentally gave me a Polish man's name, which was 97 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 2: the name, of course, of John Paul, Pope John Paul 98 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: his real name. He messed up all my Google results. 99 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: Used to be you could google just my first name 100 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: and get me. But then after he passed, you know, 101 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: he became number one Carol. 102 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 4: Wait, so you're saying that you were more famous. You 103 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 4: were more famous Carol for the Pope died. 104 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: I just think a lot of people didn't call him 105 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: Carol on the internet, you know, and then when he died, 106 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 2: everybody was like they used his you know, given name 107 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: in the obituaries whatever. 108 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 3: It like fully messed me up. And there's also now no. 109 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 4: No, what I'm getting from this is Carol thinks she's 110 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 4: more famous than the Pope. Okay, got it. I'm running 111 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 4: with it. 112 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: Briefly, Briefly I was more famous than the Pope. And 113 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: now there's a a Latin American singer also named Carol 114 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: with a K, and she totally messes up my results. 115 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: But you know, what are you going to do? 116 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: Ilia? 117 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 4: Right? Yeah? Yeah? 118 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: Isn't there another Ilia? There is? Ilia? 119 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 4: I mean there are many alias as you know, Ilia 120 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 4: for boys in our world. 121 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 3: Isn't there another Ilia in our world? 122 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 2: Ilia? 123 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 4: There's another law professor Ilia Sliman. Yes, right, yeah, he's 124 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 4: the smart one. I'm the funny one. That's the division 125 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 4: of labor. Also, we're nothing like the handsome one. 126 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: The hand. 127 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 4: Well, we can also do, you know, short and tall 128 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 4: and all this, but the the the you totally broke 129 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 4: my train of thought. It left the station and got derailed. 130 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 3: H lats civilias you know. 131 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 4: Players, but the anyway, all right, let's go back. 132 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: We'll come back to your hilarious jokes since. 133 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 4: You're funnier hilarious. Yes, yes, well, Actually, how I make 134 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 4: my living is that I occupy that thin sliver and 135 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 4: the then diagress. There's a lot of people who know 136 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 4: more about constitutional law than I do, a hell of 137 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 4: a lot of people who are funnier than I am. 138 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 4: But I occupy that thin sliver where those overlap. It's 139 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 4: a living Yeah. 140 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: I mean that's the way to go about it. 141 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: I think, you know, you represent that that tiny little 142 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 2: gaza strip. 143 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 4: Okay, you can say that. I couldn't possibly comment. 144 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 3: Anything goes on on the Carol Markowitz Show. 145 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 2: So you and I were in Israel. It was a 146 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: great time, a. 147 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 3: Sad time, a difficult time. It was a lot of 148 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 3: things intense, right, But I think that that's what Israel is, right. 149 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: It's it's like they have a lot going on, good 150 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: and bad all the time. 151 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 4: Like I hadn't been since two thousand and seven, so 152 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 4: it's you know, different country, even even without October seventh. 153 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that it's always intense. I mean these 154 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 4: are you know, real people, living real lives, having you know, 155 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 4: normal ups and downs, and apparently happier than almost anybody 156 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 4: in the world. Well that makes sense, yeah, and with 157 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 4: a higher birth rate than anybody else in the industrialized world. 158 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 4: So they're doing something right. And even though they're you know, 159 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: smaller than New Jersey and with enemies armed to the 160 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 4: teeth around everywhere. It's it's an internal divisions that sometimes 161 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: make the divisions with its external enemies seem like you know, 162 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 4: powderpuff football. So there's just a society of contrast such 163 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 4: richness in such a small place. I you know, I 164 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 4: enjoyed it tremendously and I'm still processing it still, haven't. 165 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 4: You know. I posted on my sub stack Shapiro's gavel 166 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 4: while I was there, kind of various kinds of impressions. 167 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 4: I still haven't written my piece, you know, what I 168 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 4: learned about, what I learned from in my trip to 169 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 4: Israel that I'm going to write for the City Journal. 170 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 4: Just just remarkable stuff, but whether geopolitically or sociologically or 171 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: or anything. And just the way that we were able 172 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 4: to be based in a nice hotel in Tel Aviv 173 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: and go to the farthest north, you know, ten feet 174 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 4: from the Lebanese border, and down south you know, less 175 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 4: than half a mile or so from Gaza and the 176 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 4: massacre sites and all that, and then still, you know, 177 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 4: return home for happy hour for the hotel. Just right, 178 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 4: just amazing. 179 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 180 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: I feel like that's kind of always been my feeling 181 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: on Israel. 182 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: It's so it's got just so much going on, and 183 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: it is a real place. 184 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: It's super a real place, which I think gets lost 185 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: in all the news of it because you see it 186 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: as this, you know, historic country, and when you walk 187 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: around Jerusalem, you do feel like you're like in a 188 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: story book or you're, you know, maybe possibly the most 189 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: famous story book of all time, the Bible. I think 190 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: that you feel that, you know, sense of history there. 191 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 2: But then you're in Tel Aviv and you're at like 192 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: the hottest restaurant and you're eating this unbelievable innovative food. 193 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: It was just it's a country of contradictions. I think 194 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: that that gets used a lot. And I really felt 195 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: that this time more than on previous visits because we 196 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: got to see so many different facets of it. But 197 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: you know, like I definitely I've been thinking about it 198 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: so much. 199 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: When I landed. 200 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: I don't know if the guy said this to you, 201 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: but like when I landed last time I was there 202 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: was twenty eleven, and the guy, the border you know, 203 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: agent in Israel is like, why has it been so long? 204 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: Like why haven't you been back? 205 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 2: And I, you know, I started telling him like, no, 206 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 2: I had a wedding. We were supposed to come in 207 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, we were supposed to come last year. 208 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 3: It didn't work at whatever. 209 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: He doesn't really care but the sense of like, why 210 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: have you been away so long? 211 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 4: Was I had an interesting exchange with the with the 212 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 4: customs agent as well. She said, you know what you 213 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 4: what are you here for? And I said, well, it's 214 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 4: like a media influencer's tour. And she kind of smiled 215 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 4: and nodded because a lot of people are going through 216 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 4: and that sort of thing. And she said, oh, so 217 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 4: where are you going And I said, well, everywhere, you know, 218 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 4: to the north, to the south Jerusalem, and she's like, oh, well, 219 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 4: we're up north and I'm like, I'm not sure. Do 220 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 4: you want to see my tenerary And she's like, no, no, no, 221 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 4: I just want you to be safe because there's fingers 222 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 4: out there. And remember that was the day that we 223 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 4: had to put on helmets and flat jackets and there 224 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 4: was eight missiles that morning and there was touch and 225 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 4: go whether we could make it there. So she was, 226 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: you know, just just caring about the media influencers safety. Nice. 227 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's so much of that. 228 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: I just feel like it's very homey and it's a 229 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: really great country. I think, you know, whether you're Jewish 230 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: or not, I think visiting Israel is really an amazing trip. 231 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: And I highly recommend people listening make that trip. You know, 232 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: it seems like it's so dangerous, but it's really not. 233 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: When you're there, you feel complete safety, complete security. 234 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 4: And it's anywhere you go, whatever kind of whatever kind 235 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 4: of tour group you you go with. Uh, you know, 236 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 4: the the army briefs them and they're not going to 237 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 4: take you to places, you know, like we had to 238 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 4: change our plans in Jerusalem because of the biggest red 239 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 4: alert in decades over the first Friday at Ramadan since 240 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 4: since uh, since October. So so I mean it's it's uh, 241 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 4: you're probably in more danger, you know, getting in a 242 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 4: car and driving around d C. Than the Israel. 243 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 3: So, you know, you've had an exciting couple of years. 244 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 4: You were very Chinese curse may you live in interesting times. 245 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 2: You have lived in interesting times. You were very famously canceled. 246 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 4: They tried to cancel me. You cancel me, I cancel you. 247 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they can't cancel ilia. Okay, they tried to cancel you. 248 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: But you know, one of the themes on this show 249 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: is like that some of your hardest times can obviously 250 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: lead to some of your best times. 251 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: And you do seem like you won. 252 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: You're thriving and you're doing amazing. But what was it 253 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: like in the moment, like did you feel did you 254 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: feel like you would recover? 255 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: Did you feel like you'd come back stronger than ever? 256 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 3: Or were there dark times? 257 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 4: Well? 258 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us about it a little bit, 259 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: like just you know, just in passing. 260 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be the. 261 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no. I sketched this out on my on 262 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: my substack Shapiro's gabble, come subscribe free or paid or whatever. 263 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 5: Uh, and the man pay the man do it right, 264 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 5: that's right, And in more detail in my book that 265 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 5: that you graciously plugged at the at the outset Lawless. 266 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 4: It's coming out in September. So I had this when 267 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 4: when Justice Bryer retired. I was doing media all day 268 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 4: because that's what I do, that's my area of expertise. 269 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 4: I had written a book about Supreme Court politics and traditional nominations. Uh, 270 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 4: and I was getting more and more upset about President 271 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 4: Biden keeping to his campaign pledge to appoint a black woman, 272 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 4: that is, to restrict his candidates by race and sex. 273 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 4: And so after you know, doing all this stuff all day, 274 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 4: and I was in Austin, Texas at a friend's Celebritory dinner. 275 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 4: Came back to my hotel and you know, not a 276 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 4: best practice. Doom scrolling late at night in your hotel room, 277 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 4: getting more and more upset on Twitter, and I fired 278 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 4: off a hot take saying that you know, if I 279 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 4: were a Democratic president, I would pick U. And I 280 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 4: chose the chief Judge of the d C Circuit, very 281 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 4: prestigious court, very smart man, Sreese Ri Navas and great, 282 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 4: great judge was a contender for previous vacancies. But this time, 283 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 4: because of the hierarchy of intersectionality, he's excluded, even though 284 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 4: he's an Indian American and an immigrant checks off lots 285 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 4: of boxes, but not these ones. 286 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 3: So I said, had promised that it would be a 287 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: black woman. 288 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, Yeah, that's right. And I said, so, 289 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 4: you know, he's just qualified, so we will we will 290 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: end up with a lesser black woman. It's really those 291 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 4: three works. You know, I met less qualified. You know, 292 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 4: by by basic operation of logic, I'm saying this person 293 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 4: is the best. Everyone else in the entire universe is 294 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 4: worse or less or less qualified. 295 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: Whatever. 296 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: Anyway, So I fired that off, went to sleep, woke 297 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 4: up the next morning, checked my Twitter feed and all 298 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 4: I had broken loose and people were trying to get 299 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 4: me fired. Mind you, because I was moving to Georgetown. 300 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 4: I had been at CATO for nearly fifteen years. The 301 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 4: CATO is leading libertarian thing tank. If I had still 302 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: just been at CATO, you know, you know, people to 303 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 4: know more right wing nonsense whatever, blah blah. But because 304 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 4: I was trying to intrude on a progressive bastion Georgetown 305 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: Law School, people trying to get me canceled and fired 306 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: and all the rest of it. And so began my 307 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 4: four days of hell. It was really the most unpleasant 308 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: period of my life, other than when my mom died 309 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 4: when I was in college. I said, it's the second 310 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 4: most unpleasant period of my life. You know. I couldn't sleep, 311 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 4: the gastro intestinal issues, My wife was upset. My kids 312 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 4: could tell that mommy and Daddy weren't weren't happy. You know. 313 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 4: It felt like everything I had worked towards in my 314 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 4: entire life, the sacrifices that my parents had made, and 315 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 4: coming over from the Soviet Union, everything was crumbling because 316 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 4: of a badly worded tweet. And luckily I have a 317 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 4: big enough network of pr professionals and crisis management and 318 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 4: media personalities that could platform me and my story that 319 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 4: I survived those first four days, at which point the Dean, 320 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 4: who is you know, no profile encouraged throughout this whole thing, 321 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 4: decided that I would indeed be on board it because 322 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 4: it was four days later that I was supposed to 323 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 4: start with the new jobs as a director of the 324 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 4: Center for the Constitution, which is an important center at 325 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 4: George Town, as we've learned, because the rest of the 326 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 4: law school is the Center against the Constitution. So I 327 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 4: was onboarded, but immediately suspended, placed on administrative leave with pay. 328 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 4: The reason why they kept paying me was so I 329 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 4: would have less of a lawsuit later on. And so 330 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 4: began after the four days of hell, what I referred 331 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: to us four months of purgatory. Initially I was taking 332 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 4: it seriously. I was prepping with my lawyer, you know, 333 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 4: the interview with the DEI on and HR and all 334 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 4: this stuff. But then it became clear that it was 335 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: just such a farce, and as time went on, I 336 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 4: went back to commenting on the court and commenting on 337 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 4: judicial politics and all the rest of it. And it 338 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 4: took them more than four months to figure out whether 339 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 4: my tweet violated policies on harassment and discrimination, and ultimately, 340 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 4: a junior associate at the high paid law firm Wilmer 341 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: Hale that they hired to advise them on this, how 342 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 4: many millions of dollars they expended on this is really funny, 343 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 4: discovered that I was not yet an employee when I tweeted, 344 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 4: and so it wasn't covered by these policies, And so 345 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 4: I celebrated that technical victory. But then I read the 346 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 4: longer report from the DEI office, which Georgetown is called 347 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 4: the Office of Institutional Diversity, Equity and Affirmative Action Idea, 348 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 4: and it became clear that it would be untenable for 349 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 4: me to stay, not just me, but anybody who they wrote, 350 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 4: anybody who says or write something that offends someone what 351 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 4: would effectively be creating a hostile educational environment. So I 352 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 4: could do the job that I was hired to do, 353 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 4: and as one does, I probably did my best lawyering 354 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 4: of my life and putting together this resignation letter and 355 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 4: then published it in the Wall Street Journal opinion page, 356 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 4: and then the next day announced as one does, and 357 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 4: asked my move to the Manhattan Institute on Nelson Show 358 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 4: on Fox. So that was, yes, an interesting period in 359 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 4: my life. 360 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and be right 361 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 2: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 362 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: Did you feel fully victorious like doing that? I must 363 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 3: have felt so good. 364 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: You know, they went through four months, they tried to 365 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: kill you, they didn't and and it must have felt 366 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: amazing to say, now I don't want to be with 367 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: you now. 368 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 4: I'm not exactly this is what I'm saying. I mean, 369 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 4: I feel a little sheepish in front of the rest 370 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 4: of Georgetown's faculty and staff because they started implementing extra 371 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 4: diversity trainings because of me, so they have to do it. 372 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 4: I'll deal with all this crap. But no, I felt 373 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 4: I felt free for the first time. Again. Nothing was 374 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 4: as bad as those first four days, but I just 375 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 4: felt free and liberated, and especially since I had the 376 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 4: job offer in hand. The Riihan Salaam, the president of 377 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 4: m I, and Alana Golan, who was the executive VP, 378 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 4: over the course of a weekend put together an offer 379 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 4: for me, which was very comforting because because even though 380 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 4: theoretically I knew I would have job opportunities and whatnot, 381 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 4: it was nice when I was resigning to actually have 382 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 4: the next thing in place, absolutely family safety and all 383 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 4: the rest of it. But yeah, for the first time 384 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 4: in over four months, I was in control of the 385 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 4: media cycle, and Georgetown could not respond because they're a 386 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 4: big institution. They can't move that nimbly, and they didn't 387 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 4: have a they didn't have a coordinated mess and so 388 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 4: I was doing all of these you know, radio and 389 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 4: TV and whatever for two weeks right at the end 390 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 4: of the Supreme Court term, when I was also commenting 391 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 4: on the big explosive cases in twenty twenty two, and 392 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: then I went on a vacation with my family. So 393 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 4: it was felt liberating. In fact, that first day, the 394 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 4: day I resigned, that evening, I went to a reception 395 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 4: at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation Museum in DC, 396 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 4: which everyone should check out when you come to these 397 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 4: great museum, and they had these name tags made up, 398 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 4: and of course, mindset Georgetown is when I'd registered, so 399 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 4: I crossed that out and I wrote in Freeman. 400 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: Amazing, it was great. 401 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: Do you feel like you've made it? 402 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 4: It depends how you define those terms. I mean, people 403 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 4: ask whether having gone through all of that and two 404 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 4: years later, you know, having a book deal, being elevated 405 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 4: in type speeches, I'm invited to give or this media influencers, 406 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 4: trip to Israel and opportunities that I wouldn't necessarily I 407 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 4: had before, even if I was respected in my field. 408 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 4: Was it all worth it? And I'll say this, I'm 409 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 4: definitely better off in terms of you know, career profession brand. 410 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 4: You know, does that end justify the means that those 411 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 4: those four days of hell? I'm not sure how to 412 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 4: answer that. That's kind of a question for a I'm 413 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 4: not a psychologist, you know, I can tell a man 414 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 4: from a woman without being a biologist. But to answer 415 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 4: that question, I think I need I don't know, but 416 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 4: I definitely am career wise, you know, better off. And 417 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 4: I'm sort of bulletproof with respect to cancel culture. It's like, 418 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 4: what you're gonna try to cancel me again? Like, I 419 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 4: don't care. I'm at age forty six. I've achieved the 420 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: d GAF part of my of my life. So that's amazing. 421 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 4: That's great. 422 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, So does the whole cancelation thing, or the attempted 423 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 2: cancelation does it make you I don't know, does it 424 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: make you worry about societal you know, pressures. 425 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: Not everybody can be Ilia Shapiro. 426 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: Not everyone could stand something like that. Would you say 427 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: that that's one of our largest challenges, you know, as 428 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: a culture. 429 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 4: You know, I've gotten awards for for that experience. And 430 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 4: it's funny. All I did was like nothing like not 431 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 4: for four months and then I quit, and that's it. 432 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 4: It's kind of a low bar. It's a low bar 433 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 4: for showing courage these days. I guess, uh, you know, 434 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 4: not like the stuff going on in Israel, as I'm 435 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 4: lifting up the dog tag for the for the hostages 436 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 4: that we got. 437 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: What would you say is our largest cultural issue our society? 438 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 4: It's related, It's related to that. It's kind of the 439 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 4: divisions that we have in our country despite the wealth 440 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 4: and technological advancement and the fact that we are living 441 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 4: more comfortably than you know, any society in history. I mean, 442 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 4: regardless of what percentile of socioeconomic advancement in this country 443 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 4: you are, it's better than any time in any society 444 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 4: in history. Nevertheless, we're tremendously divided. And I don't just 445 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 4: mean kind of what shows up at the polls, because 446 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 4: I don't think Americans are as polarized in that way. 447 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 4: As Congress is because of Jaran mandering, because the dynamics 448 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 4: of the parties and campaign finance and other things. But 449 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 4: we are physically separated. You know, there are many fewer 450 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 4: competitive jurisdictions in the country anymore. You know, Ronald Reagan 451 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 4: had a landslide in nineteen eighty nineteen, well, certainly eighty four, 452 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 4: convincing when in nineteen eighty and there were more landslide 453 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 4: counties in twenty twenty. In just that, it's it's people 454 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 4: are less likely to have neighbors that are that are 455 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 4: different from them in. 456 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: Various Is that I don't know. 457 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: I almost like I'll look as somebody, as somebody who's 458 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: living for the very first time in a place where 459 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: I'm the majority. 460 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 3: It's very I like it. 461 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 4: That's liberating as well, it's not. But that's that's only part. 462 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 4: It's not just you know how you vote. It's it's 463 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 4: different than you and in all sorts. You know, you're 464 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 4: reading what you read, what coffee you buy, whether you 465 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 4: buy coffee, you know beer, Why all these different kinds 466 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 4: of cultural economic signifiers are more sordid than they've been. 467 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 4: But then you get the kind of the online part, 468 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 4: because we all live our lives so much online these days. 469 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 4: I remember when I was in grad school at the 470 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 4: London School of Economics. It took a year between college 471 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 4: and law school to kind of broaden my horizons and 472 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 4: deepen my knowledge about various things. And we read a 473 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 4: book when we're studying nationalism, read a book by Benedict 474 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 4: Anderson called Imagined Communities, his definition of nationalism before this 475 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 4: kind of current populist nationalist moment, you know, twenty five 476 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 4: years ago. You find a nation by who you imagine 477 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 4: that you're sort of a part of. Well, in the 478 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 4: digital world, you could be part of, you know, with 479 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 4: lots of people and never encounter people outside of your 480 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: bubble of whatever kind that might be. It doesn't have 481 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 4: to be politics. And so there's this long tail of 482 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 4: people getting sorted in various ways, and it's good in 483 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 4: terms of individualism, but it's not good in terms of 484 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 4: a sense of community or nation or or cohesion. And 485 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 4: so we we face all of that again. I'm, you know, 486 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 4: in most of the time on most things, like Brett 487 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 4: Kavanaugh at his confirmation hearings, I live on the sunrise 488 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: side of the mountain beer. You know, I'm gonna I'm 489 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 4: gonna go a little personal on you, Carol. I am 490 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 4: a gout patient and we can talk about this medieval 491 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 4: disease because of Because of that, I can't drink beer anymore, 492 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 4: the contraindicated things. So I've got even you know, as 493 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 4: as you get up in age, anyway, you switch more 494 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 4: to wine or cocktails or whatever. But you know, I 495 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 4: hardly ever drink drink beer anymore. So I do. I 496 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 4: do like beer, but I don't drink it anymore. I 497 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 4: do have a koozy with with Justice Kavanaugh's face on 498 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 4: it and says I like beer. But yeah, I don't 499 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 4: recommend getting out. It's it's probably the most painful, non 500 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 4: life threatening thing that you can have, short of childbirth 501 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 4: or something like that. But anyway, uh so Sunrise side 502 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 4: of the Mountain. But for certain things, whether the state 503 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 4: of our political institutions, whether state of higher education, certainly 504 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 4: it's hard to be optimistic. Maybe I may be less 505 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 4: pessimistic than I was two years ago when when I 506 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 4: quit Georgetown, because things kind of after COVID that addled 507 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 4: so many brains were sort of normalizing in a certain way. 508 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 4: But there are some things that give me pause. 509 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: That's very interesting, but because because I have gone sort 510 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 2: of the other way, and I you know, I love 511 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: arguing with you. We argued on a stage recently. I 512 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: love being like I disagree, Ilia, But you know, have 513 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: you ever lived anywhere it's America. 514 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 4: You're free to be wrong in this that's right. 515 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 3: That's right. You are free to be wrong. Ilia. 516 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: Have you ever lived anywhere where you were the majority 517 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 2: ideologically or that you were at least like leaning towards 518 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 2: somewhere that most people agreed with you. It really is dazzling. 519 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 2: I can't say enough about it. And it's not crazy 520 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: to want to live around people that do agree with you. 521 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: I get the online part, the segregation. I used to 522 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 2: love commenting on like feminist blogs like back in the day, 523 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: of course, until I got banned, until I got banned 524 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 2: from their comments section. 525 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 4: So someone was wrong on the internet and you had 526 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 4: to fix that. 527 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: I used to love arguing. 528 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: I used to love arguing with with with strangers on 529 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,239 Speaker 2: the internet. And I never argue anymore. It is a 530 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: little depressing because I think, you know, debating, I love 531 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: all that, but you don't get that anymore. You get, 532 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 2: you know, drive by insults, and then I block and 533 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 2: then I never hear. 534 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: From them again. 535 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 4: That's yeah. Yeah. Part of these interesting times that that 536 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: I've lived is before my Georgetown experience, I ran for 537 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 4: school board in Falls Church City, Virginia in the fall 538 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 4: of twenty twenty one. False Church is a small town. 539 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 4: It's even called it a little city, fifteen thousand residents, 540 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 4: ten thousand voters, And during COVID people were really upset, 541 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 4: like they were with school boards across the country, about 542 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 4: COVID policy, about when the schools were closed. Here despite 543 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 4: a popular survey to the contrary, the school board voting 544 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 4: unanimously to rename Thomas Jefferson Elementary and George Mason High. 545 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of discontent and I thought, well, 546 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 4: you know who's going to step up and fix the 547 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 4: and not many people were, So I said, well, I 548 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 4: guess I have to run and broke fundraising records again, 549 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 4: launched my local school board campaign with a Wall Street 550 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 4: journal op ed as one does, and started being attacked 551 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 4: by the local weekly paper, who was run by a 552 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 4: Lindon Laruche acolyte. That's kind of an amusing local politics here. 553 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 4: Falls Church is the epitome of limousine liberal. It went 554 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 4: for Biden by more than Alexandria, Virginia by more than Charlottesville. 555 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 4: I mean just I think it was like eighty one 556 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 4: or eighty two percent. And yet this is the richest 557 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 4: town in America, not because we have billionaires, but we 558 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 4: don't have poor people here. It's all lawyers and lobbyists 559 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 4: and other professionals. So anyway, an interesting political dynamic. So 560 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 4: I had that experience, which that sucks. 561 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 3: That doesn't suck, it. 562 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 4: Does it does. Although, because it's so local and small, 563 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 4: the school board turned over, so there were four seats open. 564 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 4: None of the incumbents ran for reelection, which tells you something, 565 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 4: and seven of us ran for these four seats. The 566 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 4: reformers we did not win, but but the four that 567 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 4: went on were definitely better than the four that left. 568 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 4: And the school board is now in control. Even when 569 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 4: I disagree with their decisions. They're not just laying down 570 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 4: for the superintendent, which was the case before. He hates me, 571 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 4: by the way, and he knows that, you know, I 572 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 4: can summon you know, flying monkeys to attack him and 573 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 4: whenever he does something silly. But but Christain and I, 574 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 4: my wife and I we now exercise soft power behind 575 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 4: the scenes. I played tennis with the chairman of the 576 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 4: school board and checks with some of the other people. 577 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 4: Just they care about what the you know, they know 578 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 4: that there's a lot of people that just don't have 579 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 4: time to pay attention to it. But they know that, 580 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 4: you know, they want to be you know, rational and 581 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 4: not have been made into national news stories like our 582 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 4: neighbors in Arlington and Fairfax, right really do for all sorts. 583 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 4: We don't have that kind of craziness here. It's much 584 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 4: more small and nimble, like we can meet with our 585 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 4: kids principle whenever we want kind of thing. I mean, 586 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 4: it's it's very you know, we still it's still high quality. 587 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 4: It's still now you know, our kids are small so 588 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 4: far second grade in kindergarten. We'll see how it goes 589 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 4: as things go on. But and then and then we 590 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 4: have baby twins as well. So that's the other thing 591 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 4: that happened during this whole crazy period, we had our 592 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 4: cancelation babies. So anyway, it has been interesting times. Uh 593 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 4: and uh, and that's that's brought me here to this, 594 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 4: which reminds me of one of my favorite songs. I 595 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 4: don't know, if you're into country music, Carol. 596 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 3: But country music right now? Yeah? 597 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 4: Good? Well? Uh you know uh the artist who used 598 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 4: to be Hoody of Hoody and the Blowfish, Darius Rucker 599 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 4: is a big country star and he wrote this song 600 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 4: called this about you know. It's it's kind of it 601 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 4: sets the scene. It's raining outside. He's sitting on the 602 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 4: couch with his wife watching a movie or something, his 603 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 4: baby girl sleeping in the next room, and he he 604 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 4: thinks he gets kind of nostalgic or sentimental about all 605 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: the doors that closed in his life, the colleges that 606 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 4: rejected him, the girls that dumped him, all these wrong 607 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 4: decisions that he made, but that ultimately brought him here 608 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 4: to this, which was contentment. And so you know, I've 609 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 4: had this tumultuous period. But all of a sudden, you know, 610 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 4: this only child Soviet emigray uh is here. It's a 611 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 4: large family with this. You know, we joke that we're 612 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 4: landed gentry. We have this. It's not a McMansion. Our 613 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 4: neighbors have bigger house than we do. But it's like 614 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 4: this old house on a hill with the circular driveway 615 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 4: and we have a pool. And my in laws built 616 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 4: their house on our properties. Who have this multi generational compound. 617 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 3: Amazing. 618 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 4: It is fit. The only thing wrong with it is 619 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 4: that it's not in Florida. That you know, it's great 620 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 4: if we. 621 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: Could figure out a way to move it to Florida. 622 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 4: I think the transaction, really, the transactions costs are are 623 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 4: just too high. We have such a great setup. We 624 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 4: have an O pair now, we built a little we 625 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 4: knocked out in our garage and and and put up 626 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 4: a space for for someone to uh to live and 627 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 4: kind of a guest bedroom situation with a gym that 628 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 4: I got. So yeah, you should, you should. 629 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: We so end here with your best tip for my 630 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: listeners on how they can improve their lives and. 631 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: Be you know, more like Ilia Shapiro. 632 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 4: It's all what I've learned. First of all, it depends 633 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 4: who's asking. If it's someone you know just graduating college 634 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 4: or a you know, a student, it's different. And the advice, 635 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 4: the wrong advice is to say, oh, just follow your 636 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 4: passion or something. Kids these days, kids any days, don't 637 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 4: really know what their passion is. Right. It's sort of 638 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 4: you know, or whether you're someone talking to someone mid career. 639 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 4: And I wouldn't fathom to give someone advice who's older 640 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 4: than me. But look, it's it's what I've learned in reading, 641 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 4: especially psychologists like Jonathan Height is very popular these days. 642 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 4: Everyone should go read what he's writing. But what agency 643 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 4: is so important? That is feeling like you're in control 644 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 4: of your life, all different aspects of your life. People 645 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 4: are what makes people unhappy. You know, once you kind 646 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 4: of uh satisfy the basic needs, you know, you're not 647 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 4: in danger of being homeless or starving or things like this. 648 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 4: You have you know, if your kid gets sick, you 649 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 4: can take them to the doctor, these basic things. After that, 650 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 4: it's just it's not you know, you work too much 651 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 4: and therefore you're unhappy or the people are unhappy when 652 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 4: they feel like they aren't in control of what they're doing. 653 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 4: And so my only advice is figure out a way 654 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 4: to both personally and professionally feel like you're the master 655 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 4: of your fate. You run the show that you're right. 656 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 4: And that doesn't necessarily mean go start your own business. 657 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 4: I'm not entrepreneurial in that sense. I am entrepreneurially, I 658 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 4: feel in terms of like ideas and figuring out identifying opportunities, 659 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 4: and you know, I thought I would, you know, going 660 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 4: to Georgetown I would be teaching this and I would 661 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 4: be writing about originalism and doing this right and God 662 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 4: plans and man plans and God laughs. So you just 663 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 4: identify opportunities and try to try to do that. But 664 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 4: I you know, I'm not going to sit here and 665 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 4: pretend that you ask me, you know, whether I've made it. 666 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 4: And I don't feel like I've figured it out necessarily, 667 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 4: but I'm I'm doing my best. My hardest job is 668 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 4: as a dad. I just took my older boys on 669 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 4: spring break to Arizona and California. We had a fun 670 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 4: and interesting time. Of course, now I feel like I 671 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 4: need a real vacation. But you know, just just again, 672 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 4: get to a place where you know, whether you're working 673 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 4: in a giant corporation, a small business for yourself or 674 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 4: or whatever it is, you know, starting a business with 675 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 4: your husband or wife or whatever it is, that's what 676 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 4: will make you, give you a sense of accomplishment and 677 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 4: mission and and all that sort of Thank. 678 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: You so much for coming on. He is, Ilia Shapiro. 679 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: His book is Lawless, The Miseducation of America's Elites by 680 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: It now pre order it wherever books are sold. Thank 681 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: you so much, Ilia, Carrol watching Watchune Priatna. 682 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcoit Show. 683 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.