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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Favorites the podcast from the Action Network.

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Speaker 1: I am Chad Millman. Today. Poker has exploded during the

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Speaker 1: Corona shutdown, especially online poker. For a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: it takes us back to the full tilt days when

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Speaker 1: becoming a professional poker player was just something you did.

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Speaker 1: By Laudon on an opening and account. Today's guest Maria

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Speaker 1: Kanakva has written a brilliant book, not just about poker,

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Speaker 1: but about her deep dive and how poker can teach

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Speaker 1: all of us about observing better, negotiating better, making better

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Speaker 1: day to day decisions. No joke, Maria. Uh. The Biggest Bluff,

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Speaker 1: How I Learned to pay attention, Master myself and Win

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Speaker 1: by Maria Kondakova. It's a freaking joy. It's smart, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: It's taking complicated concepts turning them into something entirely accessible.

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Speaker 1: Nice on the book, Maria, Thank you so much, Chad.

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Speaker 1: That means a lot. Uh. How did you come to

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Speaker 1: the idea? I initially came to the idea from a

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Speaker 1: very different angle than I think most people come to poker.

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Speaker 1: All the poker players I've encountered over the last several

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Speaker 1: years of playing full time they were games players when

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Speaker 1: they were growing up. You know, they played chess or magic,

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Speaker 1: the gathering um or or cards, and they learned poker

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Speaker 1: from their parents. I grew up in household where games

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Speaker 1: weren't a thing. You know. We we read books, Um,

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Speaker 1: that was about it. Um. We didn't even have a

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Speaker 1: deck of cards. I don't think my grandparents had a

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Speaker 1: deck of cards. We didn't. And so to me, like

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Speaker 1: poker was just this totally foreign thing. Um. I had

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Speaker 1: no idea what it was. I never really gave it

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Speaker 1: much thought. But I became really interested in the idea

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Speaker 1: of luck and the role that luck plays in our lives,

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Speaker 1: and whether there was some way that I could learn

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Speaker 1: to tell the difference between the things I controlled and

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Speaker 1: the things that I didn't control, because it's so easy

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Speaker 1: to conflate the two, right a speuly, if you're getting lucky,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, you know, everything is great, I'm smart, I'm

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Speaker 1: doing well. You know, life is good, um, and you

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Speaker 1: just kind of forget you also got really really lucky.

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Speaker 1: And this was something that was on my mind, and

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Speaker 1: so I started reading a lot to try to figure out, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: what's a way into this question, What's what's the book here,

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Speaker 1: because this is just an idea, it's not a book.

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Speaker 1: And um. Eventually someone suggested that I read up on

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Speaker 1: game theory. They said, you know, if you're interested in chance,

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Speaker 1: game theory is a really good framework for for approaching nos.

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Speaker 1: And so I picked up John von Neumann's Theory of Game.

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Speaker 1: Von Neuman is the father of game theory, and this

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Speaker 1: book is kind of the seminal text um. And what

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Speaker 1: I learned very early on in the first pages of

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Speaker 1: the book is that von Neumann was a poker player,

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Speaker 1: and that poker is what inspired game theory. That he actually,

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Speaker 1: like me, didn't really care for games. Um, and he

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Speaker 1: thought that chess was actually a pretty bad way to

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Speaker 1: learn decision making if you wanted to study strategic decision

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Speaker 1: making in life, because it's a game of perfect information.

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Speaker 1: Everything's out there. You can see the chessboard, you can

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Speaker 1: see all the pieces, and if you give me enough

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Speaker 1: computing power, I'll be able to tell you what the

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Speaker 1: right move is. Theoretically there is a right move. And

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Speaker 1: what he loved about poker, the reason that poker was

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Speaker 1: the game that actually drew his attention was it was

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Speaker 1: a game of incomplete information. So there's not this chess board. Instead,

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Speaker 1: there are the cards that I have, but you don't

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Speaker 1: know what they are. There are the cards that you have,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know what they are. There are the

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Speaker 1: cards that we see in common, the community cards the board,

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Speaker 1: and we both know that. And then how do I

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Speaker 1: figure out what you have? How do I infer based

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Speaker 1: on your actions? And what do you infer from how

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Speaker 1: I'm acting? And how do I make the best decision

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Speaker 1: I can knowing I don't know everything, knowing that there's

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Speaker 1: all this uncertainty, and knowing that the cards that are

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Speaker 1: still to come are just a crapshoot. No one, no

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Speaker 1: one knows the what's coming in the deck. And when

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Speaker 1: I read about the game, I thought, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: really interesting. This could be a really good way into

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Speaker 1: the topic of luck, to try to figure out the

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Speaker 1: difference between controlling what you can you know, how you

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Speaker 1: play um and the elements that are outside of your control.

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Speaker 1: The deck, the run out of the cards, and poker

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Speaker 1: is a clean environment. You know, it's not life, it's

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Speaker 1: not noisy, so you can actually have a shot and

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Speaker 1: hell of being able to tell the difference, whereas in

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Speaker 1: life it's just impossible because there are so many things

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Speaker 1: going on, there's so much noise out there. So I thought,

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Speaker 1: I want to do this. Why don't I learn to

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Speaker 1: play poker? Um? Why don't I start from scratch, get

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Speaker 1: someone smart to teach me. Um. I got very lucky there,

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Speaker 1: and see where it takes me. Take a year play

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Speaker 1: the game, um, and see what I can learn about luck,

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Speaker 1: about myself, about decision making. And obviously the journey didn't

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Speaker 1: quite play out the way I thought it was going to.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't a year, it was much longer. Um.

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Speaker 1: I never could have predicted I'd become a professional poker player.

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Speaker 1: But here we are, right. So I and you touch

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Speaker 1: on so many buzzwords, and obviously this is a betting

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Speaker 1: audience that listens to this podcast, and and so many

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Speaker 1: buzzwords that are important to people who gamble for a living.

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Speaker 1: And your your grandmother sort of has a great response

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Speaker 1: to how you like when you're proposing that you're going

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Speaker 1: to be playing poker, and so much of this book

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Speaker 1: sort of speaks to so many of the things that

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Speaker 1: people in the gambling community sort of confront every day.

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Speaker 1: But you've got something very early on in the book

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Speaker 1: that I thought it was a great sentence and I

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Speaker 1: want to read it. It's through poker. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: team luck make a difference, even when the deck seemed

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Speaker 1: stacked against me. Like in other words, control, control, control,

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Speaker 1: Like the last part that's me editorializing, but that is

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Speaker 1: everything A better is looking for. How do I manage

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Speaker 1: luck and how do I control circumstances? Like what did

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Speaker 1: you learn about this during the process? I learned that, yes,

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Speaker 1: there are so many variables that we don't control. Um,

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Speaker 1: we have no control over the cards, how they're going

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Speaker 1: to be dealt in what order, Who's going to get

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Speaker 1: which hand? You know, some some rounds. If you've ever

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Speaker 1: played poker, you know that sometimes everyone gets crap cards,

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Speaker 1: sometimes everyone gets monsters, and it's there's nothing that you

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Speaker 1: can do about it. But what you can learn is

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out how do I maximize my

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Speaker 1: informational advantage because information is power. If I have more

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Speaker 1: information than you, I'm going to be able to calculate

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Speaker 1: the odds better, I'm going to be able to know

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Speaker 1: exactly how much to bet. I'm going to know how

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Speaker 1: to play this hand better than you. And even if

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Speaker 1: I can get a one percentage. Even if I can

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Speaker 1: get a two percentage, that's huge. I should use that.

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Speaker 1: I should look to get all the edge that I

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Speaker 1: can and figure out how do I do that, how

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Speaker 1: do I listen the most information possible? And yes, I

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Speaker 1: know that it's never gonna because those elements of uncertainty

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Speaker 1: are never going to go away. But if you're you know,

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Speaker 1: at fifty and I'm at um in terms of our certainty,

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Speaker 1: or if I can figure out how to make myself

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Speaker 1: a little bit more of a favorite, well that's great.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting in my money well, and yeah, I can't

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Speaker 1: control the run out, so I'm not always going to win.

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Speaker 1: But if I'm placing this bet, if I'm playing the sand,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do it over and over and over

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Speaker 1: if I know that I'm the odds favorite, because eventually

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Speaker 1: I'm going to win. And poker taught me how to

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Speaker 1: do that. Poker taught me how to look for the

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Speaker 1: use of those edges. By the way, poker taught me

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Speaker 1: that one percent is a hell of a lot. You know, before,

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Speaker 1: before I started playing poker, I was like, that doesn't matter,

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Speaker 1: you know, one percent, one percent is nothing, And I'm

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Speaker 1: like one percent is huge. Give me the one percent. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's how That's how betters are right. They're always scraping

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Speaker 1: for like just that little bit of bit of an edge.

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Speaker 1: It's why people are knee deep in like looking for

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Speaker 1: every single bit of information they can find. And and

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Speaker 1: in sports betting, it's about speed to write about understanding

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Speaker 1: that edformation before anybody else. When did When did sort

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Speaker 1: of you start to get a buzz for poker that's

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Speaker 1: sort of played to your strengths and and sort of

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Speaker 1: I guess a little bit explain to people I didn't

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Speaker 1: sort of explain that you have a background in human

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Speaker 1: behavior in psychology, and so that feeds into directly, um

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Speaker 1: to some of the advantages that you might have found.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely um So, I came to poker knowing nothing about poker,

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Speaker 1: but with a PhD in psychology, and I'd studied human

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Speaker 1: decision making and specifically decision making under risk and uncertainty

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Speaker 1: and in hot emotional conditions. I looked at stock markets

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Speaker 1: because I didn't know what poker was at the time. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: had I known, poker would have been perfect. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have even needed to design the studies. Just have people

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Speaker 1: play poker and and look to see what they do. Um,

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Speaker 1: So I had that background. I knew from a theoretical

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Speaker 1: standpoint how people go wrong when they make decisions. Unfortunately, say,

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Speaker 1: ecology is so good at finding the mistakes and not

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Speaker 1: quite as good at figuring out how do you fix them?

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Speaker 1: How do you actually teach the human mind to think probabilistically?

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Speaker 1: How do you teach the human mind the difference between

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Speaker 1: what five percent feels like what ten percent feels like,

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Speaker 1: the fact that one percent is a lot doesn't come

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Speaker 1: naturally to us. It's not something that psychologically we're equipped

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Speaker 1: to handle because we learn from experience, we learn from doing,

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Speaker 1: we learn from sampling, and probabilities aren't evenly distributed, and

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Speaker 1: our experiences aren't evenly distributed, and so the way we

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Speaker 1: learn in real life is skewed um and we overweight

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Speaker 1: our personal experience. And so you know, we might be

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Speaker 1: very risk seeking in certain situations just because we got

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Speaker 1: lucky one time, or we know someone who got lucky,

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Speaker 1: and we might be very risk averse because the opposite

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Speaker 1: thing happened. And it's not based on any sort of

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Speaker 1: real rational calculus. It's just based on these one off

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Speaker 1: experiential events. Poker though, is a way to bridge that gap,

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Speaker 1: because in poker, you're learning from experience, you're actually playing

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Speaker 1: hand after hand after hand, thousands of hands, and you're

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Speaker 1: learning correctly, so you start feeling, you start being able

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Speaker 1: to internalize what those probabilities feel like. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: that at the time, but I did have the psychological background,

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Speaker 1: the mental framework. UM. I had the language to see

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Speaker 1: what I needed to focus on, what the possible pitfalls

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Speaker 1: in my thinking were and in other people's thinking. And

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Speaker 1: I knew because I had been in a learning environment

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Speaker 1: for a long time, I knew how important it was

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Speaker 1: to have a good coach, to have a good mentor,

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Speaker 1: and so right away I decided to seek out someone

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Speaker 1: who could help me UM. And that someone was Eric Sidell,

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Speaker 1: who was considered by many to be the greatest poker

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Speaker 1: player of all time. And you know, I knew him

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Speaker 1: as the guy with the visor and rounders, so so

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Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily know his poker greatness, um. But but

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Speaker 1: he agreed to help me, and so I was able

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Speaker 1: to leverage I think a lot of my background because

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Speaker 1: he knew how to help me apply it. He knew

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Speaker 1: how to teach me the right thought habits so that

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't pick up the wrong habits. It's not like

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Speaker 1: I was a poker player and I wanted to get better.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing to unt teach me. He It's not

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Speaker 1: like he had to fix all of these problems that

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Speaker 1: I already had. He had just a blank slate. He

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Speaker 1: could tell me no, no, no, no no no, don't do

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Speaker 1: that or do this. But I think that it really

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Speaker 1: did help me, UM that I had this understanding of

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Speaker 1: human decision making going into the process, and so I

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Speaker 1: think I came in with a meta cognitive awareness UM

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't have when they start

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Speaker 1: the game. So he also early in the book that's

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Speaker 1: really what gets him excited. And he's a fascinating character

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Speaker 1: in the book, And like I knew about him, like

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Speaker 1: as a poker player, but just didn't know about his personality.

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Speaker 1: And he just seems like a lovely guy who you

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Speaker 1: want to spend time with, who's just intellectually curious. And

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Speaker 1: early in the book he also mentions phil Ivy and

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Speaker 1: like phil Ivy to everyone in the poker community, I'm

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Speaker 1: literally to my right is a framed cover of a

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Speaker 1: story I did for ESPN, the magazine about phil Ivy

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Speaker 1: and um, you know he is a scary competitor, and explain,

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Speaker 1: like I thought it was an interest in comparison. The

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Speaker 1: way he thought about teaching you was an approach that

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Speaker 1: is similar to what phil Ivey has. Yeah, so phil

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Speaker 1: Ivy was actually the only name that I knew in

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Speaker 1: the poker world. Somehow his name managed to transcend poker.

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Speaker 1: I knew nothing about poker, but I knew who phil

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Speaker 1: Ivy was. And um, Eric said something really interesting. Um.

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Speaker 1: He said that not only does phil Ivy play all

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Speaker 1: of these poker variants, and there was a point in

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Speaker 1: time when he was considered the best at all of them.

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Speaker 1: And each variant is almost like a different language because

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Speaker 1: you're playing the same game, but the nuances are different,

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Speaker 1: the stresses are different, you know, the things you have

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Speaker 1: to pay attention to are slightly different. But his sister

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Speaker 1: is someone who speaks multiple languages. Um, and something like

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Speaker 1: I don't remember how many, but like twelve languages or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Um. And so he thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: how interesting that these siblings, who are both so successful

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Speaker 1: in very different ways, share this thing which seems to

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Speaker 1: be a linguistic ability, an ability to pick up the

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Speaker 1: way that different people communicate. And Eric really liked that

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Speaker 1: I actually speak multiple languages, that I come from a

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Speaker 1: multi lingual background. I was born in Russia. Russian was

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Speaker 1: my first language. Um. Then I learned English when I

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Speaker 1: came to the US. I picked up French when I

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Speaker 1: was a little kid, in Spanish, then Italian. You know,

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Speaker 1: I ended up learning a lot of languages as I

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Speaker 1: grew up. And he said, that's really interesting. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's going to be very useful because if that

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Speaker 1: sort of brain mentality, brain ability, whatever it is. Um,

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Speaker 1: if if we take the I vs. As kind of

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Speaker 1: one one case or two, if you if you think

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Speaker 1: about both siblings, then perhaps there's something to that. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you'll actually be able to pick up this new language

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Speaker 1: of poker. So why do you think Eric decided to

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Speaker 1: do it. I think he decided to do it for

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Speaker 1: for a few reasons. One, he loves poker. The key

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Speaker 1: is passionate about the game for him, you know, it

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Speaker 1: is it's true love, you know he and he wants

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Speaker 1: to spread that love with the world. And so I

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Speaker 1: think because I came from the outside, because I was

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Speaker 1: a writer with a journalistic background whose fan base wasn't

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Speaker 1: poker players. I don't think any poker player knew who

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Speaker 1: I was, who actually you know, came from a very

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Speaker 1: different world. Um. He saw me as a way to

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Speaker 1: potentially grow the game, as someone who could if I could,

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Speaker 1: if you could get me to love poker too, then

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Speaker 1: I could share that with a much wider audience. And

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Speaker 1: to him, I think that was a valuable opportunity. And

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Speaker 1: I think the other thing was that he really liked

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Speaker 1: the challenge. He thought, Wow, can I teach this person

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Speaker 1: with just a psychology background to think well enough to

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Speaker 1: play well? Um? And I think to him that was

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Speaker 1: a really interesting test of philosophy because so many players

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Speaker 1: these days are very mathematical, you know, it's all about

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Speaker 1: solvers and models and statistics. And he thought, well, can

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Speaker 1: you still do well with a slightly different approach, um,

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Speaker 1: And if he could train me to to be a

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Speaker 1: good player, um, that would say something. So the book

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Speaker 1: is incredibly funny and charming, and like I said, it's

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Speaker 1: sort of it takes very complicated concepts that you're clearly

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Speaker 1: adept at and it translates them so for for more

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Speaker 1: of a mainstream audience. At what point, and like, there's

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Speaker 1: moments in there where it feels almost like slapstick, and

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Speaker 1: like when you're viewing Eric in the park and like

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Speaker 1: trying to walk and carry your microphone, carry your recorder

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Speaker 1: and take notes and do all these things, that was slapsticks.

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Speaker 1: Someone should have someone should have filmed us. That would

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Speaker 1: have been a great comedy duo. It was, but it

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Speaker 1: was funny for people who don't know. Eric is Um

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Speaker 1: six and a half feet tall. I'm not Um, so

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Speaker 1: right away, you know, when you have when you have

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Speaker 1: two people walking next to each other who have such

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Speaker 1: a high disparity, it's very amusing. But Eric is also

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Speaker 1: a very fast walker, and I'm someone who likes to

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Speaker 1: take notes both on a tape recorder and by hand

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Speaker 1: when I'm doing interviews. So it made for some very

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Speaker 1: interesting moments. It was. It was like it reads funny.

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Speaker 1: It reads very funny, but like at some point you

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Speaker 1: start to understand the art of war Elements is you

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Speaker 1: sort of talk about in the book Um, and you

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Speaker 1: transition from sort of being someone who is self deprecating

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Speaker 1: and like learning about the game to becoming much more

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Speaker 1: confident about your ability. So talk about explain I hate

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Speaker 1: I hate people say talk about like, like, can you

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Speaker 1: explain what that transition was like and sort of the

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Speaker 1: different steps that were needed from a decision making point

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Speaker 1: of view to become more confident. I think it's something

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Speaker 1: I'm still working on, you know. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: that's something that that ever ends, UM, because it's something

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Speaker 1: that that I really needed help UM in doing UM.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's something I'm still working on in writing,

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Speaker 1: and writing is something I've I've done from most of

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Speaker 1: my professional career. So I think it's always a work

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Speaker 1: in process. UM. That said, I will answer your question

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Speaker 1: trying to I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: deflect it UM. So UM. As I went along the process,

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Speaker 1: I took notes the entire time. I wrote every day

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Speaker 1: because I wanted it to be authentic. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to forget what I was actually feeling and experiencing at

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Speaker 1: every step along the way, because it's so easy to

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Speaker 1: think you'll remember and to not take notes, and then

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Speaker 1: you put your present self, you kind of try to

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Speaker 1: project yourself backwards UM, and you end up forgetting what

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Speaker 1: it really felt like or what you were really thinking.

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Speaker 1: So the book is pretty true to that in the

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Speaker 1: sense that I took notes that I was actually taking

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Speaker 1: at the time, UM, and my confidence progression really mirrors

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Speaker 1: what was happening UM. And I tried to I tried

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Speaker 1: to be very deliberate about that, UM, because you don't

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Speaker 1: want to read a book about someone claiming to be

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Speaker 1: a novice, but from the beginning it reads like, you

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Speaker 1: know you're not a novice. I have no idea what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. UM. And it was something that was

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Speaker 1: very gradual and that I at first wasn't even aware of.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know I lacked confidence, to be perfectly honest.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I knew that I didn't know what I

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Speaker 1: was doing, but that's a little bit different. You know,

348
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Speaker 1: you can be you can be a totally amateur, but

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Speaker 1: still think, Okay, I can do this, it'll be it'll

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Speaker 1: be fine. UM. Pretty early on I realized that this

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Speaker 1: was really hard, that it was much more to guilt

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Speaker 1: that I ever imagined. And I also started noticing, UM

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Speaker 1: because I think we should caveat here, because it's important

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Speaker 1: in answering your question, UM, that I'm female and that

355
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 1: of poker players are male. UM. It's a very very

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Speaker 1: male dominated world, and so this is important because I

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Speaker 1: realized that a lot of my lack of confidence kind

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Speaker 1: of came from gender dynamics that I didn't realize I

359
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Speaker 1: had internalized over time, but that I would kind of

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Speaker 1: defer to people and say, oh, I guess you know better.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to fold my cards, right, I guess

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00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: you're really strong, I'll fold. I don't want to get

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Speaker 1: in the way that I would do things like when

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Speaker 1: I had really good cards, I was wasn't raising nearly

365
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Speaker 1: aggressively enough. I wasn't winning enough money because I didn't

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Speaker 1: want people to think of me as you know, that

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Speaker 1: aggressive bitch who who always triple barrels and and does

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Speaker 1: all of this. I wanted them to like me. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to to be nice. That's not that's not a

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Speaker 1: great motivation when you're trying to win at a game. Um,

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Speaker 1: you can be nice and still play aggressively. Right, that

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Speaker 1: those are two different things. When I started realizing those,

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Speaker 1: um that those were things I needed to work on,

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Speaker 1: that was the first step toward trying to kind of

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Speaker 1: overcome them and build a little bit more confidence in

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Speaker 1: what I was doing. But that confidence didn't come until

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00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 1: I had something to back it up. So it came

378
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: with knowledge. It came with practice, It came with time

379
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: and just experience and sitting at table after table after

380
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Speaker 1: table and playing in tournament after tournament, playing hand after

381
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Speaker 1: hand after hand and playing it out and then talking

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Speaker 1: through what I was doing so that I could figure out, Okay,

383
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Speaker 1: you know, how are my decisions? Am I starting to

384
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Speaker 1: think better? My starting to make better decisions? Um? And

385
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 1: it really helped that at some point I started winning. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's essential. I mean, it's so hard

387
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Speaker 1: to have confidence. Um, if your results are ship you know,

388
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,959
Speaker 1: I don't know, Listen hasn't stopped anybody I work with.

389
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Speaker 1: So but but I don't and I don't want to

390
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,880
Speaker 1: give it away. But like, it's known that you ended

391
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 1: up becoming an incredibly successful professional poker player. Explain how

392
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 1: well you've done. Give people the context, Like you sort

393
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: of have to talk about the money, because money is

394
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 1: how you judge success in poker, So give people some

395
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: background on that. Sure. So, UM, I the first time

396
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,959
Speaker 1: I sat down at a real table in a real casino. Um. Like,

397
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: my first real poker tournament was January, and I ended

398
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Speaker 1: up spending multiple months in Vegas playing all the time

399
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: until I started actually winning those daily tournaments. UM. And

400
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: then Eric wanted to make sure and I think this

401
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: is actually a really important point for all gamblers, UM,

402
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: that I played within my bankroll so that I never

403
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,479
Speaker 1: played higher than I could afford to lose. And then

404
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: I built up my bankroll organically. So I started at

405
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: very small stakes the tournaments that I played it at

406
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: the beginning, where you know, thirty five dollar tournaments. Then

407
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: I moved up to you know, hundred twenty dollars tournaments

408
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 1: after I was doing well at those. Then after I

409
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: was consistently doing well at those, I moved up to

410
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: thousand dollar tournaments. And that's kind of how I built

411
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 1: my way up. And I you know, I won my

412
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: first I won my first tournament at Planet Hollywood. It

413
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: was a Planet Hollywood daily tournament. Very proud of myself, UM,

414
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: I want almost a thousand dollars. It was. It was huge.

415
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: It was life changing with life affirming um. And then

416
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Speaker 1: you know, I I pushed on. I I did the grind.

417
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: I grinded the poker circuit and I started playing more.

418
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: I started studying much harder, just studying or playing every

419
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Speaker 1: single day, seven days a week, UM, eight nine hours

420
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: a day, just really taking it seriously. At this point,

421
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: I was doing this full time because for the book,

422
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: I hadn't gone full time poker pro or anything like that.

423
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: But I really wanted to commit myself to this, and

424
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: I started as I analyzed things, I would figure out

425
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: what leaks I had, what things I needed to work on.

426
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: I eventually got a mental game coach as well, someone

427
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: who could help me on kind of the mental elements,

428
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: just where Eric was helping me with the strategy. UM.

429
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: I started getting better, getting some second place finishes UM,

430
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: placing in some international events. UM. And then the pivotal

431
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: moment came a year after I sat down at my

432
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: first tournament, almost to the day, UM, when I played

433
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: in the Poker Stars Caribbean Adventure, the pc A National

434
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: and somehow miraculously this was a four day tournament. UM.

435
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: A lot of people played UM, and I won, and

436
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: I ended up you know, the final table was stacked

437
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: with really famous players, and it was surreal. I couldn't sleep,

438
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, I couldn't eat, I couldn't do anything. UM.

439
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: But that just I think that changed the entire trajectory

440
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: of my poker care because there's a big difference between

441
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: first place and second place. Um, not just financially, although financially,

442
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: but the media doesn't care about second place. You know,

443
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: no one cares about second place. People care about the winner.

444
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: It's not it's not a story if it's second place, right,

445
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's poker or sports or or

446
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Um. And so the fact that

447
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: I won actually changed a lot of things. First, of course,

448
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: the confidence I just took down a major international title. Secondly,

449
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: I got a formal sponsorship from Poker Stars, so I

450
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: joined Team Pro, which was huge. It me it meant

451
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: that I could I signed a contract to play full

452
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: time for a year. UM. So I signed on to

453
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: kind of do this, and I knew I'd be able

454
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: to travel all over the world. You know, I ended

455
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: up going everywhere, Macaw, Monte Carlo, um, just all over

456
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: the map. I hate my cow by the way. Um.

457
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: And And I also it was really important to me

458
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: to prove to myself that I could do this again,

459
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: that it wasn't like a one hit wonder, um, that

460
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: it wasn't like okay, guys, I did it. Now I'm

461
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: out of here. Um. And so I ended up you know,

462
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: really working even harder in a way after I won

463
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: UM and I think it paid off. Um I. When

464
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: I went to Macau, I ended up a final tabling

465
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: two big events in one week, coming in second in

466
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: one of them. I don't remember what I came in

467
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: in the other, fifth or something. See if it's not

468
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: first or second. Remember I don't remember, UM and UM.

469
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: In the course of two years, UM I made over

470
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars from playing poker. That is astonishing,

471
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: and that's not an insignificant sum of money. No. No, that,

472
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: by the way, we should we should note for people

473
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: who are listening to this being like I should become

474
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: a poker player. That's not actually my profit. That was like,

475
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: that was net not a that was gross, not net

476
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: there that was gross walking around now exactly exactly their expenses,

477
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: their taxes. There are lots of things that happened with that.

478
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: There are lots of turn ments that I played that

479
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: I didn't cash that aren't on there. Um. But but still,

480
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: that's pretty that's pretty cool for never having played before. No,

481
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: I would say that there's a lot of people who

482
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: would love to say, Hey, I've won three grand playing

483
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: poker two years after I started playing poker. Yeah, what,

484
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: how would you describe yourself as a player. I would

485
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: like to think that I've picked up some things from

486
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: from my mentor that i'm and I actually think I have.

487
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm very lucky that not only was I coached by

488
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: Rick Sidell, but he introduced me to his friends, and

489
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: his friends are some of the best players and people

490
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: in the world. They're amazing. So someone else I ended

491
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: up working with a lot was Phil Galfond, who's a

492
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: brilliant player um and brilliant human being. And something that

493
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: both Eric and Phil share is their emotional equilibrium. They

494
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: are two of the calmest players I know. I have

495
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: never and obviously everyone tilts um and for people who

496
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: don't know the term, that means just getting emotional in

497
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: your decision making. It's a great word, though. You should

498
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: learn it and you should use it in your every

499
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: day vocabulary. But I've never seen Phil tilt. I've never

500
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: seen Eric tilt. Like I said, I know they do

501
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: because everyone does, but they're just so even keeled. I mean,

502
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: Phil was just doing something called the Galphon Challenge where

503
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: he challenged anyone in the world two heads up plo um,

504
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: and he started off his first challenge, he was down

505
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: almost one million euros, so that's over a million dollars

506
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: um and most people would have quit. And Phil took

507
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: a week off the challenge and said, you know what,

508
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: I still think I'm a favorite. I think I have

509
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: an edge. I want to keep going. And he ended

510
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: up winning, so he didn't only recoup that million euros,

511
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: but he ended up with a profit. And how many

512
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: people can do that, how many people in the face

513
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: of that loss can actually stay calm, take time to

514
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: rationally reflect and say, I'll keep playing and play well

515
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: and then play well enough to come back from that.

516
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: And it's one of the best sports comeback stories ever.

517
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: And the reason I'm saying this is I think that

518
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: that approach I would like to think that the approach

519
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: that Phil and Erica spouse in terms of kind of

520
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: that emotional center um that it rubbed off on me,

521
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: that it's something that I bring to the game. So

522
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: I think and I think it's easier for me because

523
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: I'm female. To be perfectly honest, I don't have the

524
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: testosterone swings. I don't have, you know, I don't have

525
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: the as much you go in the game as a

526
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: lot of male poker players do um, and so I

527
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: think that that actually is a characteristic of how I

528
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: play UM. And it's also something it's a mentality that

529
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: Eric taught me very early on. I tried to tell

530
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: him a bad beat story and he just yelled at

531
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: me and he said, no, I don't want to hear this.

532
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: This is terrible. Do not tell me this. And I

533
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: never want you to tell me about be story. Ever,

534
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to. In fact, I don't ever want

535
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: to hear how a hand ended. I don't care. I

536
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: just care about the decision process. Do you have a

537
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: question about how you play the hand? Is there anything

538
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: interesting in what you did and what you could control

539
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: in the elements of the decision process, Because that's the

540
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: crucial thing, not the outcome. You have to divorce yourself

541
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: from the outcome. And that's such a powerful mental frame.

542
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: That's such a powerful mental shift. I think that's what

543
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: allows you to not tilt um and to kind of

544
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: deal with these swings with emotional equilibrium. And so I

545
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: think that that at the end of the day, it's

546
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: kind of the the central tenant to how I try

547
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: to play poker. And yes, this doesn't kind of answer

548
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: the question of strategy. You know, I'm a more aggressive

549
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: player and I you know, my a tighter player. Um.

550
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: And the answer to that is it depends. Um. The

551
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: other thing that Eric taught me is to constantly adjust.

552
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: Don't be one kind of player. Don't be someone who's

553
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: known as a maniac, don't be someone who's known in it.

554
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: Be someone who is capable of doing both and everything

555
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: in between. Because you are so observant and so in

556
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: tune with the table that you're able to just completely

557
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: switch gears depending on your opponents. Um, I'm not there,

558
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: but that's what I aspired to do. So you're touching

559
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: a couple of things that are that I think are

560
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: really fascinating about the process right and and in sports

561
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: betting as a comp like people will always talk about

562
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: how I got the right number, I was on the

563
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: right side, it was you know, it was a bad

564
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: beat or whatever. It was not in a way that

565
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: sort of makes them feel badly. They're just like, that's

566
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: the way the games go, and if I got to

567
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: the right decision making process, I'm comfortable with how the

568
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: outcome is. What the outcome is good or bad. Um.

569
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: You talked a lot about sort of disaster versus triumph

570
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: in sort of as a concept. Explain what that means,

571
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: because I think almost anybody who's embedding could understand it

572
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: wants to hear about it. Um. This is originally a

573
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: concept that I heard from another grade of poker, Dan

574
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: Harrington Um, who wrote a series of books that a

575
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: lot of people have read when they start playing poker.

576
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: Harrington's unhold him and he taught me something that I

577
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: think everyone needs to know, and that's you will never

578
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: learn how to play good poker. If you get lucky,

579
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: you have to get unlucky. And at first I was like,

580
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: what do you mean. I don't want to get lucky.

581
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: I want to win. And what he meant was when

582
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: you fail, when you when you're met with disaster, you're

583
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: forced to go back and to examine what you did,

584
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: to examine your thought process to figure out how did

585
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: I get here? You know, what were the variables I

586
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: was looking at? Was my decision correct? Was my process correct?

587
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: Or was it flawed? And if it was flawed, well,

588
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: then I need to learn how to improve it. And

589
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: if it was right, if my process is actually right, okay,

590
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: then how do I dismiss this bad result? And keep going.

591
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: And if you're lucky, you never do that. It's so

592
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: easy when you're lucky to say, yep, I played really well,

593
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: Yeah I made no mistakes. I'm listen. A very fascinating

594
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: thing is to look at exit interviews of people who

595
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: have won tournaments and listen to how many great players

596
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: will say at the end and some not great players, oh,

597
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: I played I was just really on. I played really well. Um,

598
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: I didn't make any mistakes. I played a very solid game.

599
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: And try to find the number of times that people say,

600
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, I made a lot of mistakes, and I

601
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: actually lucked out here here and here, these are the

602
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 1: moments I should have busted the tournament, and these are

603
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: the things I'd like to re examine. But I got

604
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: really lucky. So here I am no one's No one

605
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: really does that. You don't have an incentive to examine

606
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: your process to find your mistakes if you lucked out,

607
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: If you keep lucking out, you just think it's you

608
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: you think are good, and so you don't learn. It

609
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: doesn't teach you anything. And so yeah, maybe you actually

610
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: made pretty good decisions, which is great, but maybe you didn't,

611
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: and you're not going to know and you're not going

612
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: to learn to tell the difference, and you're not going

613
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: to learn the discipline to go back and examine your

614
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: thought process. That's what you learn from disaster, not from triumph.

615
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: So the the book ends, you write your last word,

616
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: you turn it in. How often do you still play poker?

617
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: How often do you think about poker? Did you end

618
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: up liking poker? I absolutely fell in love with the game,

619
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: and I think that, Um, in large part that's I

620
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: have Eric to think. He taught me to see the

621
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: beauty in it. He taught me how much you can

622
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: teach me. And when I handed in the book, I

623
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: had no plans to stop playing. It's one of these

624
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: things where I love writing. I'm a writer. I'm always

625
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: going to be a writer. UM. But I also started

626
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: loving poker, and it was still teaching me so much.

627
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: I was learning a lot about myself. I was becoming better,

628
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: I was becoming a better decision maker. It was still

629
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: giving to me, and I was still enjoying it. And

630
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: so I thought, well, why can't I do both? Um?

631
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: And I think that you absolutely can. You know you

632
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: can write from anywhere in the world. UM. And so

633
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 1: I had plans to keep playing UM, and my book

634
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: is out June three, which was supposed to be the

635
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: middle of the World Series of Poker, So it was

636
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: slotted to come out in the middle of this big

637
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: event that I was going to be playing UM, and

638
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: then I was going to play the main event UM.

639
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: And we were going to do all of these things

640
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas around the book launch. But unfortunately, you

641
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: never know what cars are coming, and you can make

642
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: the best decision you you can, but it's in complete

643
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: information and you have no idea what's coming next. UM.

644
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: No one could have predicted that, you know, we'd have

645
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: COVID and that it would unravel the way that it

646
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: did UM, and that Life Poker would be done UM.

647
00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: So UM. I was actually on my way UM to

648
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: play in l a PC, which is one of the

649
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: biggest World Poker Tour events of the year UM. In

650
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: late February, UM, I was in New Orleans UM the

651
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: week of Marty Gras. Not for Marty Gras. I was

652
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: already actually a little bit scared of COVID UM, and

653
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: so I stayed mostly in my hotel room. UM. I

654
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: was there for to get an award for my writing

655
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,959
Speaker 1: and I was supposed to fly from New Orleans straight

656
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: to l A. And the first cases started popping up

657
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: in l A. UM, And my sister is a doctor,

658
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: and she called me and she said, do not go

659
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: to a casino right now. And I changed my tickets

660
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: and I turned around and UM came back to New York.

661
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: And I think that was a very smart decision. And

662
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: so I ended up not playing my last what would

663
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: have been my last live tournament. UM. So everything changed

664
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: and the world changed, and my plans changed for a

665
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: poker because I'm a live player. UM. You know that

666
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: that's what I do. And so now we'll see, you know,

667
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: we'll see one live poker comes back. I'll certainly not

668
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: feel comfortable playing in UM. I think you have to

669
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: be insane to go into a casino right now. UM,

670
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: but maybe one. And in the meantime, UM, you know,

671
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: I will keep writing and playing online. I actually made

672
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: plans to go to New Jersey, UM in July to

673
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: play the World Series online. So UM, I'll be doing

674
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: that and that should be fun. So we'll I'm doing

675
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: my best to adjust, right I don't. I'm not an

676
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: online player, but I'm trying to do my best to

677
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: learn the best strategies for playing online so that I

678
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: can continue to do it. Well. Listen, I hope you

679
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: get to play live again. I hope you get to

680
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 1: play live again for all of us, because that will

681
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: be good news for everybody that got into a place

682
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: where we can be comfortable being next to somebody, but

683
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: mortally more and more importantly, I just hope people read

684
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: the book because it's fantastic and uh, really amazing job

685
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: just sort of capturing so much cool information into into

686
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: really thoughtful pros. So um, nice work. Thanks for coming

687
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: on the favorites. Thank you so much for having me.

688
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure. Thank you to Maria Kondakova. The

689
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: Biggest Bluff is out now go get it. Download the

690
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: podcast from Apple, from Spotify, wherever you get your podcast,

691
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: rate review, subscribe until next time. I love you, Yeah, yeah,