WEBVTT - Part Three: How Peter Thiel Became the Gravedigger of Democracy 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:09.119 Also media, What's dying in darkness? My Democracy? I'm Robert 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.000 Evans hosted Behind the Bastards. We're coming on recording this 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.880 the day that The Washington Post is getting attacked online 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.360 for not endorsing anybody in the election, which I'm grateful 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:22.600 for because it means that no one hasn't noticed that 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.000 Cool Zone has also not put in our endorsement for 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.080 the twenty twenty four election, which is really good because 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.760 every year, you know, we advise people to vote for 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:38.000 the same man, Richard Milhouse Nixon. Now to talk about 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.320 our greatest president and I think our greatest future president. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.640 Noah Shackman, Noah, how are you feeling? Do you think 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:46.400 Nixon's got it this year? You think he's going to 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:47.479 pull out a win. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.919 I thought you were saying I was your greatest future president. 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:54.840 You could be, You could be, but you need to 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:59.040 be a little more Nixonian. You know, have you considered 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.720 trying to destroy the world while drunk and only Henry 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.480 Kissinger being the one that can stop you? 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.040 No? I haven't, so I guess I'm not qualified. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:15.600 Yeah, that is a bummer. No. You are a contributing 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.360 writer at Rolling Stone, contributing editor at Wired, and you're 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.640 here to talk about pe Tizzy, which Peter TiAl does 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:24.600 not go by. And well, probably if he was not 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.959 committed to destroying us after the first two episodes, that 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.640 nickname is probably going to get us attacked. 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.320 Yeah, you're definitely yeah. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.640 We're done. We're done here everybody. Yeah. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:37.320 Yeah. 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.240 How do you feel about the news today? Is it good? 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.400 You happy? Happy about the news? 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:44.399 The Washington postling. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:46.840 I don't know whatever news is happening today. I assume 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.480 something else went down, right, somebody died. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.480 I'm excited. The Yankees are playing in the world. Cheers. 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.360 That's good. That's good. Bill Clinton called Kerry Lake attractive. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.240 It's been an exciting week for everybody. 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:04.920 I mean, you know, tiger can't change the stripe. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.160 From yeah, yeah, if we want to call him a tiger, 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.160 yeah yeah, so uh yeah, let's uh, I guess let's 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.799 get back into the old Peter Teal game. I'm I'm 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:17.640 I'm ready to talk about him. You're ready to talk 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:29.200 about him? Yeah, I will bums away. If you're a journalist, 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.360 which you know two thirds of us are in this call. 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.359 December seventh, two thousand and seven ought to be a 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.560 date that lives an infamy. That was my my Pearl 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.560 Harbor joke, But it's also a joke referencing the Gawker lawsuit, 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.600 because that is the day that Gawker, via its tech 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.840 website Valley Wag published an article with the title Peter 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.760 Teal is totally gay people Now Valley Wag, which was 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.639 you know, the again, like the tech imprint of Gawker 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.120 had been writing about Peter Teel for a while, and 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.840 they had published articles kind of insinuating that Peter was 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.480 gay for quite a while. The company founder, Nick Denton, was, 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.320 to his credit, someone who recognized early on that Peter 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.240 was not just another rich investor guy, but somebody who 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.200 was amassing significant power and had a weird ideology and 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.080 should be covered. Unfortunately, the downside of it was that 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:27.160 Nick's instincts were, you know, this was a messy time 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.880 for digital media, shall we say, and Valleywag was not 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.280 at this point entirely conducting itself in the best traditions 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.680 of a journalistic enterprise. Right. And while I think an 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.800 argument can be made, a strong one that Peter being gay, 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.560 given his funding of the Republican Party, is to a 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.640 degree relevant to the public interest. The way in which 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.960 Valley Wag reported on this initially was not a public 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.920 interest story, right, Like that title, Peter Teal is to that, 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.120 that's not a we're we're getting out necessary information title, right, 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.280 that's kind of that's being extremely caddy right. 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.320 By the way, our guest today is no chef. 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:13.680 And why are you slipping me in on the caddy 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:14.280 outing here? 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.000 I introduced him this this much. 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.560 I haven't Catalie outed anybody in the Yeah. 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:28.320 Robert definitely did forget to introduce you last time, but 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.040 we redid it. We did it, and it was fine. 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:31.560 I got it. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.720 This time gets his credits because. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:39.239 They're thank you get your. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.760 Credits, Robert. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:42.920 I would credit you too if I could. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.119 Do you remember this, Noah, when when Gawker outed Peter, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.640 because I didn't catch it really at the time, but 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:51.039 I was a baby at this point. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:55.280 I didn't. I didn't either, but I did know, you know, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.760 the Nick Dent and Crewe and Nick a little bit 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:03.680 back then, and honestly, so many of the people involved 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.560 were so fucking whacked out on powders and pills you 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.040 probably forgot they even did it. 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.680 All of the money that was going around in digital 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.400 media back then. I think it would have been hard 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.200 not to be whacked out on powders and pills, but 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.039 you could. This is not like the Post wouldn't have 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.760 done this reporting in this way, right, or the New 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.480 York Times. You can think of that what you will, 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.880 but like this was this was a little messy. I 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.520 think probably. I mean, Peter never sues over this, but 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.960 this is the inciting incident of what he gets angry 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:31.440 at them. So I don't think this would have been 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.640 something that could have been adjudicated in court. But it 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.560 is something that if you're kind of going on, where 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:42.000 does Peter Teal have a right to privacy? Like if 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.919 you're arguing that because of his advocacy, you know this 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.160 is relevant, which I think is an argument that can 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.360 be made strongly. You probably want to be a little 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.320 bit clearer in making that argument than Peter Teal was 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:00.400 totally gay folks. Yeah yeah, yeah, Now again, I I 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.679 that's that. I don't think like the fundamental issue here 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:05.680 is that they out at him. I think it's just 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.440 more that like, yeah, it's kind of a kind of 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.840 a grotty way to do it. Do you say grody? 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.679 I did? I did I am a high school girl 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:20.960 in two thousand and four. Wow, late nineties, right, yeah. 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.000 I thought it was more of an eighties thing, but hey, 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:22.280 you know. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.720 Yeah, it's probably more of an eighties thing. Yeah. So 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.720 the you know, this had been Valleywag had been kind 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:30.960 of poking at Peter for a while, right. They had 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.960 been making before that article some kind of veiled claims 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.640 about him being gay, and Valley Wag is kind of 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.479 certainly writing more on like the what do you call it, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.560 tabloid end of things. Right at this period of time, 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.680 Goker is going to professionalize in the period you know, 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.800 before they get sued into oblivion by Peter, But in 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.120 two thousand and seven they are still very much like 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.479 new kids on the block. We don't really give a shit. Now. 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.360 The question that comes to if you've read about Peter 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.200 Teal is like, why did he get so offended at 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.279 the fact that he was outed? Because by all accounts, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:11.120 he was pretty open in his personal life, Like, it 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.600 doesn't seem like this shocked even his like Republican colleagues, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.080 people who had gone to Teal parties, who like knew 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.160 him personally, who had got to his nightclub, like he 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.240 didn't like, go to extreme lengths to hide this fact 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.960 about himself. Instead, what seems to have enraged him was 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.360 not the specifics of the fact that he was outed, 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.280 but this line from the Valley Wag article. The only 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.640 thing that's strange about teal sexuality. Why on earth was 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.040 he so paranoid about its discovery for so long? Now 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.960 I wouldn't really that didn't not line doesn't stick out 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.440 to me. But here's from an article in The Atlantic 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.520 which interviewed Ryan Holiday, who wrote a book about the 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.040 Gaker case. Here's here's what Ryan said about why that line, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:08:00.480 in particular like tweaked Teal. He thought Denton was implying 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:04.000 that Peter had psychological problems. When you read the comment, 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.160 it doesn't feel that way. But Teal thought, here's the 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.760 publisher of a media outlet, not just a blogger, going 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.480 after me. The blog post felt like the first article 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.960 after years of negative Golcker coverage against Teal. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.240 I mean, look, I do think it like it feels 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:18.880 weird when you're on the other side of it, And 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:20.880 I think, like you know, for those of us like 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.679 write and broadcast right it like you wanna you sometimes 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:27.760 want to take a spin on the other side of 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.320 the camera, so to speak, and see how that stuff feels. 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.839 On the other hand, like what's he doesn't seem to 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.600 have made it a secret, doesn't seem to have been 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.120 a big deal. On the other other hand, you know, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.280 I think outing people's fucked up and yeah and so 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.320 and I feel like, you know, people's sexuality is like 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.439 their own, uh is their own choice. On the other 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:51.959 other other hand, like you know, if you're going to 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:59.439 embrace some weirdo, like you know, retro seventeenth century ideology 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:04.040 about really and empower, then you know, then you might 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.719 have to grapple with its inconsistencies and hypocrisies. So, I 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:09.360 don't know, it's. 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.400 A tough one, Yeah, it is. It is kind of 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.440 a tough like this is I think a useful thing 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.119 for people who are interested in the ethics of journalism 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.160 to comment on. I don't think it's interesting like the 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.600 specifics of why Peter gets angry, this idea that he 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.360 was mostly pissed that Goker had maybe insinuated that he 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.680 was not emotionally balanced. Now, the other argument you'll hear 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.760 here is that the primary real reason Peter was pissed 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.800 about this is that it was fine for him to 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.480 be gay and kind of open about it in his 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.199 private life with the people who hung out around him, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.360 but not publicly open about it because who he really 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.840 wanted to keep this from or to re maintain plausible 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.439 deniability with is the Saudis Right, he has a lot 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.000 of business involvement in the Middle East and the Immirates 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.240 as well as in Saudi Arabia, and he didn't want 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.760 to be an out gay man traveling to in dealing 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.480 with these countries, right Like, he felt that that would 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.520 be damaging to his business interests. So that's the other 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:09.960 argument that you'll hear, and I'm sure it's probably a 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:14.000 number of things. In any case, it doesn't This is 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.120 like I think when I first was aware of this case, 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.760 most of the casual reporting was like, you know, Peter 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.760 Thiel got involved in wanting to sue Gawker and do 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.120 oblivion because they outed him, right like, that was the 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.040 DDT A to B. I think it's a little less 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.360 direct than that, And I think this is the picture 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.599 Chafkin page paints, the picture holiday paints and holidays. The 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.320 guys really seems to have gone into this. The most 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.120 is that this is what kind of gets Gawker on 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.440 Peter's radar and annoys him. But he's not committed to 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.200 taking them down yet, right, Like that's not going to 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.439 happen for years and years. So this is just kind 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.440 of like the beginning of the conflict that they have 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.040 in each other. So we're we're gonna move on here 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.360 and later we will come back to the story, but like, yeah, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.280 this is this is how he's kind of kind of 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.800 starting to get angry at Gawker. And I do think 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:08.600 it's useful to holiday suggests that there's another reason why 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:10.679 Peter's pissed as a result of this, and it has 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.679 more to do philosophically with the kind of reporting that 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.840 Gawker is doing and what they represent about the media 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.040 in the digital age that Peter is kind of personally 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.680 repelled by, maybe even frightened of. And I'm going to 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.400 quote from an interview that he did again here from 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.720 two thousand and seven up until twenty twelve, Denton was 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.120 on a devil may care right of breaking rules as 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.280 a media publisher, and that was so diametrically opposed to 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.160 Peter's vision of quiet individuality. This belief that weirdos needed 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:41.840 to be left alone if they were going to change 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.880 the world. Peter saw that Gawker would punish people for 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:45.640 that weirdness. 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:48.840 What yeah, I'm. 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.560 Yeah, I'm not sure how much. I mean, it's perfectly 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.720 fine for it's perfectly reasonable on Holiday's part to be like, yeah, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.880 Peter's doing this because that's just how he feels. I 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.920 do think that's a very silly like. 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.480 Give me a break. Yeah, what was teals uh Stanford 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:06.800 paper again? What were they doing? 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.240 Yeah? Yeah, the Stanford where they were like outing professors 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.720 and stuff based on their political ideology and like his 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.640 best friend who wrote those anti AIDS columns like screaming 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.440 about how he hopes that this fucking gay professor dies 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:21.760 of AIDS or whatever, like. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.720 Yeah, right, and so now, yeah, worried about what exactly? 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.880 Yeah, yeah, that that Dockers making it unsafe to be weird, 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.800 I you know, and Holidays more sympathetic to Peter in 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.040 this and that I then I certainly come out of 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.520 like if that is how Peter justified this to himself, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:46.800 it's stupid or maybe it's just uh Ryan kind of 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.040 needing to find a more reasonable reason. 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.320 I think there's yeah, put it in a different way, man, Like, Okay, 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.120 I've been as you can see from the gray hair, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.360 I've been involved in journalism for a long time, and 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.440 I've been involved in tech journalism for a long time. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:06.199 Back then was like the time of maximum subservience of 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:07.160 tech journalism. 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.439 It was a critical industry. Yeah, not at all. 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.480 I mean, like, if you think the political press of 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.920 twenty twenty five towards future press is bad, this is like, 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:20.920 you know, that would be a pale imitation of the 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.560 Silicon Valley press of that era. And so I think 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.439 Valley Bay Wagon its own you know, fucked up, weird 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.720 old way was like the only people that were like 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.880 bothering to penetrate or interrogate that or one of the 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:34.800 few people. 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.120 They weren't socatively yeah, just completely subservient. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.280 Yeah, now they were reflexively gross in some other ways. 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.960 And I said, yeah, yeah, a friend of mine worked 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.439 on that. But like, you know, I feel like some 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.520 of it was just like how dare you actually, you know, 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:57.160 not follow the rules of obeisance here? And how dare 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.520 you not kiss my ass? That feels like more part 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:00.760 of it. 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.480 Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably like, I think that's 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.480 probably a fair because this is actually what I came 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.439 up in tech journalism, And yeah, it was a completely 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.520 like Valleywag was one of the rare places where you 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.080 would get people who were trying to be confrontational to 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.440 these guys who were kind of worshiped at the time. 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.520 You would have to go far to find really critical 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:26.080 reporting on Zuckerberg, on fucking Steve Jobs, on a guy 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.560 like Teal. In this period of time, like two thousand 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.760 and seven is when that Forbes article on the PayPal 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.280 mafia that we quoted from comes out where they're like 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:36.320 taking a picture of Peter and all of his friends 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.800 and framing it like it's a like a film, like 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:43.600 a poster and stuff. So yeah, I do think and 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.280 I do think that's important context for like, we don't 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.320 want to I'm not like trying to deny how gross 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.680 a lot of the especially today, a lot of like 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.000 the way value Wig framed things was, but it is 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.440 important to note also the value of what they were 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.880 doing that like, well, at least they were confronting these guys, 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.000 you know, And it was it was two thousand and seven, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.760 it was a different era. Digital media was new. We 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.480 can talk about like what the ideal way to confront 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.640 them would have been but like at least they were, 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.800 so I don't know, it's it's it's a it's a 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:17.520 messy time. Nobody's nobody. Nobody handled it perfectly now in 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.120 terms of how Chafkin interprets this, because Chafkin is a 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:26.680 lot it gives a lot less slack to Peter, and 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.960 his argument is that his argument is that like, after 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.280 this Gawker article comes out, Peter is angry but at 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.480 the same sense of the but at the same time 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.760 he's he's kind of like liberated by the fact that 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.720 he's been outed now, and that this is a big 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.960 part of why he becomes such an open not just 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.680 in funding of the far right, but funding of a 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.600 lot of his weird libertarian pet causes is now that 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.920 he has been outed, like, well, you know, maybe it's 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.760 gonna fuck with some of my business in the Middle East, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.680 but at least I can be who I am openly now. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.960 And I think there's a good case to be made 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.720 for that because it's after this article comes out that 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.080 Peter starts, for example, sinking huge amounts of money into 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.600 c steading, which is an art idea championed by weird 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.360 libertarians who wanted to build their own cities, independence of 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.640 the government in the ocean. Peter backs the Sea Steading Institute. 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.040 He starts funding these guys who are doing like little 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.120 burning Man style events which actually do sound kind of cool, 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.360 where they're like living in the sea or rivers and 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.320 stuff for days at a time. And he's funding this 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.640 this libertarian uh you know, kind of fail sun dude 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:40.320 who's a major c set steading advocate, and he's giving 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.640 like speeches and stuff. He's actually more into this. This 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.960 is not just because when you've got Teel money you 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.840 could just be a dilettante about something that you're casually 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.360 interested in. Peter is like giving speeches and writing essays 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.040 about how sea steading he thinks might hold some of it. 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.280 It's a sea yeah. Yeah, yeah, like homesteading, but on 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.440 the sea. Sea steading. 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:06.840 Yeah. Look, tell me again, how did we get from 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.720 Peter toe is totally gay to Peter Teele is totally 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:11.320 sea stetting. 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.360 Well, Peter Teal Peter Teel, who has now been revealed 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.320 as gay, can be revealed can reveal himself also as 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.480 a weirdo libertarian and be like, look, you know, I've 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:22.639 been outed on this thing that I actually wanted to 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.440 keep quiet, So I might as well be open about 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.840 the fact that I think that we can replace governments 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:31.840 by living on the ocean and building floating cities. Why not? 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.520 Again, Like, I feel like at every step it's like, dude, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.320 this guy is like stuck in like second semester freshman year. Yeah, 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.719 it's like he like took some bong hit that like 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:48.720 he never quite recovered from. 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.440 We all took a bong hit we didn't quite recover from. No, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.040 let's not judge him for that is charged. 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.440 I'm just saying that, like his particular like techno libertarian 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.000 you being dude, Yeah, what if we homestead it on 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.760 the sea? Yeah, and then no government could touch us? 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:06.640 We could be pirates? 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:07.879 Are this is? 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:08.919 Are you kidding me? 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.359 This is the toughest part of the Peter Teel story 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.520 for me here because I have to report on this 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.320 and I don't like Peter obviously. I wrote like seventeen 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.760 eighteen thousand words on why he's a bad guy. I also, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:23.919 I think this kind of rules. I do think it 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.119 kind of rules. I don't like it as a political thing. 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.399 It's like we're going to replace all the governments. But 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.600 I love the idea of I liked. Look, I watched 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.440 too much SeaQuest as a kid to not be attracted 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.320 to the idea of taking to the ocean to build Europe. 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.480 It's cool. I'm sorry, it's a cool idea. I like 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:47.440 fucking forgive me, wow, I like it. I think it's 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.439 neat what I'm sorry? 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.400 What is se Quest? See? 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.200 What is c God? Alien? 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:56.120 Alien four? 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.520 Albelievable? No. So back in like the mid to late 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.480 nineties when after after Star Trek to the Next Generation 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.560 really blew up when it was kind of like season 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.200 three or so starting to hit its stride, a TV 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.000 show that was basically Star Trek the Next Generation but 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.119 set in a future where humans had taken to the 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.879 ocean to like expand their living territory. And it was 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.280 the lead actor, like their picard was Roy Scheider, the 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.399 sheriff from Jaws, and he like ran this giant like 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.960 submarine city that traveled around and like kept the peace 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.199 in the underwater frontier. It was a good show. It 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:33.120 was a good show. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:34.959 Yeah, Jaws on it too. 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.720 No, No, But there was a dolphin character. There was 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.159 a talking dolphin. There was a talking dolphin which there 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.760 was supposed to be in the original Star Trek the 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.880 next Generation. I think there was watched that was something. Yeah, 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.760 because Gene Roddenberry was as he was a believer that like, 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.120 once we have a nuclear war, dolphins and humans will 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.040 like ascend together. Oh yeah, yeah, you might have been 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.200 friends with that guy who raped that dolphin. I'm not 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.719 saying he was in favor of raping dolphins, but there 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.359 was a John C. Lily raped a dolphin. Yeah, what 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:07.120 well do you guys know about John C. Lily? 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:09.360 Peter Teele raped a dolphin. 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.720 Yes, that is the allegation we're making on behind the bastards. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.800 Thank you Noah for stating it, because now you you 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.440 and the iHeartRadio Corporation are both on are both on 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:26.239 the hook for making that statement for a dollar. To 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:28.600 be honest, I think the guys you think dolphins are 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.240 equal to human beings. I don't think Peter Teel cares 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.919 about dolphins very much, else he would have different politics. 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.280 Dolphins are cool, although I also. 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.560 Don't think he's molested a dolphins. So you know, some 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.200 of those pro dolphin guys did where do you stand 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:49.120 on molesting dolphins? Email Sophie, do you have any email technically, Okay, well, 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:50.200 I'm not going to read it. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:51.600 The contact page on our website. 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.960 So we've hit about the point of two thousand and 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.000 eight or so, Peter is getting into funding Sea Steading. 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.399 He's getting more open, he's starting to put out more 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.120 money to like libertarian causes. 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.280 Dolphins allowed on the sea stead you know, I. 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.640 Think that's going to vary from if I'm cea Steading. Yes, 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.560 dolphins are independent citizens with independent rights, but also they 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:14.480