1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Guess what mango? What's that? Will? All right, I'm gonna 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: tell you about a little experiment. You know, I love 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: to tell you about experiments, Right, So this was one 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: that took place back in two thousand one, and there 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: were fifty four undergrads and this was at the University 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: of Bordeaux. So they were studying wine tasting and wine 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: making and they were training to be experts on and 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: kind of naturally interested in the subject of wine. And 9 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: so during this specific study, there was a researcher that 10 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: was asking students to describe one glass of white wine 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: and one glass of red wine. And these were both 12 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: just sitting right in front of them. But of course 13 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: there's a trick here, so they didn't know that the 14 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: glass of red was actually just a glass of white 15 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: wine with a little bit of food coloring. So I mean, 16 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: I feel like I can already guess how this ends. 17 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: Like none of them knew was white wine they were drinking, right, 18 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: and it uh. It kind of reminds you of that 19 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: commercial from Pizza Hut where they served this pasta in 20 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Italy and they tried to rebrand themselves as Pasta Hut, 21 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: and no one knew it was from pizza Hut. Oh man, 22 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: that was so tricky, And I'm sure those sudies were 23 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: equally scientific, but but you're right, like, not one of 24 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: the fifty four kids could tell the white wine was white. 25 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: And as they were writing down their notes, they were 26 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: looking for the features that you would typically find and reds, 27 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: and even convincing themselves that they were tasting those notes 28 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: and the drink. Now, honestly, normally, I don't like these 29 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: kinds of studies because I don't love people feeling like 30 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: they've been tricked, and especially with things like art or wine, 31 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: where they're already feeling intimidated by the whole thing. And 32 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: I feel like everybody should get to enjoy those things 33 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: without worry. But today's show is all about wine crimes, 34 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, the forgeries and frauds and the wine world, 35 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: and it is a fascinating world. And the thing that's 36 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: so interesting to me about these cons is that the 37 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: people really really want to believe they're drinking or buying 38 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: the good stuff, even when it's really smart people drinking 39 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: a very obvious white wine and drops of food coloring 40 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: or just placed in it. And that's what today's show 41 00:01:54,360 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: is all about. Let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners, 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as 43 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: always I'm joined by my good friend man guest Ticketer 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: and on the other side of the soundproof glass decanting 45 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: a bottle of what is that? It's Bartels and James 46 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: man the Wild Island Wine Spritzer, and I think he 47 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: ordered it on eBay. He was saying, that's our friend 48 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: and producer Tristan McNeil. I'm pretty sure that's just a 49 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: bottle of grape soda that he put a bartls On 50 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: James label on. And uh, we know your tricks, Tristan, 51 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: so you can't fool us, Triston. But today's episode is 52 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: obviously about wine and wine crimes. But did you know 53 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: that grape juice is actually a man made invention? So 54 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: I didn't gave actually pointed this out to me. But 55 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: just think about it, like if the juice from a 56 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: bunch of grace was to somehow pool in the wild, 57 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: it would start to ferment on its own. So in 58 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: order to make grape juice, we actually have to halt 59 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: their natural fermentation process to stop it from being alcoholic. 60 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: So there's no such thing as all natural grape juice, 61 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: no matter what the labels tell you. You know, I've 62 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: actually never thought about that, and that is a pretty 63 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: benign case of of mislabeling. But there's so many other 64 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: interesting stories of you know, many more nefarious examples, including 65 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: one of history's first wine crimes. And I know you 66 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: were doing some digging into this, So do you want 67 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: to give us the scoop? Yeah, definitely, I can do that. 68 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: So wine itself is something that's been around pretty much forever. 69 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you can go back as far as seven 70 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: thousand b C. And the Chinese were actually making wine 71 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: from fermented honey and rice and fruit. The Phoenicians were 72 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: getting in the act. They were producing and trading their 73 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: own versions throughout the Mediterranean. And for as long as 74 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: humans have been making wine, there have also been those 75 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: have been manipulating or counterfeiting it for their own game. 76 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: And you can actually see this in ancient Rome. So 77 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: the Romans complained about phony wine flowing through the country, 78 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: and in fact, Pliny the Elder once wrote about the problem, saying, quote, 79 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: not even our nobility ever enjoys wines that are genuine. 80 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: So wine forgeries have been this widespread problem from the start, 81 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: which you know must have been really disheartening for Pliny 82 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: the Elder. So so why do you say that? Well, 83 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: he was also the Roman scholar who coined the famous 84 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: phrase in vino veritas or in wine, there is truth, 85 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: so he probably didn't appreciate people meddling with the wine 86 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: or his aphorism. I like the fact that I think 87 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: we've quoted Pliny the Elder maybe three times on this 88 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: show before we got real Plenty here. We we love Pliny, 89 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: or at least quoting Plenty. But alright, so so fake 90 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: wine was definitely flowing through Rome. But but how exactly 91 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: did the scam work? So basically, counterfeiters would sometimes claim 92 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: a wine was made from a certain kind of grape 93 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: or even produced in a specific region, that it really wasn't. So. 94 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: For example, like the most popular wine and ancient Rome 95 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: was fail Aian wine, which was made from grapes grown 96 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: on the slopes of this and this wine was somewhat 97 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: rare and pretty expensive, but before long there were all 98 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: these local bars serving up a never ending supply of 99 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: it at super cheap prices, And while plenty of people 100 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: couldn't tell the difference, there were these people with more 101 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: discerning palettes like Pliny, who caught on pretty quickly. So 102 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm guessing though, that wouldn't exactly stop the counterfeiters. Though, 103 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: no it didn't. I mean, wine forgers only became more 104 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: common as time went on, which really prompted governments to 105 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: crack down on the crimes. So in London during the 106 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,679 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, you actually see tavern owners had to store 107 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: their French, Spanish and German wines and separate containers and 108 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: separate areas, so it would be harder for them to 109 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: mix the wines or even to lie about where a 110 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: certain wine came from. And if a bar keep was 111 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: caught serving fraud wine like, the punishment was that they 112 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: had to drink every single drop of it themselves. What 113 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: a harsh punish. I mean, I guess if it was 114 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: fake wine, it probably didn't taste great, but that that 115 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: really doesn't seem like that bad of a punishment. Yeah, 116 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess some of the wine could have 117 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: been off or whatever. But Germany actually had a much 118 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: harsher policy wine counterfeiters there. It could be branded or 119 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: even hanged, and it depended on how much fraudulent wine 120 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: they were selling and who they've been selling it to. Alright, 121 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: so let me get this straight. So in one country 122 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: you could be looking at a punishment of having to 123 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: drink some pretty bad wine, and then another country you 124 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: might actually be hanged for the crime. I mean there 125 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: was a lot of bad wine. Yes, must have been 126 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: really bad so all right. So so then if we're 127 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: talking about multiple places that this kind of fraud was 128 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: rampant all across Europe or what it definitely was. And 129 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries there is even this 130 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: group of so called wine doctors who started producing their 131 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: own makeshift wines from chemicals and all sorts of random 132 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: fruits like apples or even raisins, and then they try 133 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: to pass the stuff off as this really prestigious wine 134 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: from far away regions. And this actually became such a 135 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: huge problem that European government started cracking down on it. 136 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: So you know, the British Parliament took a stab at it. 137 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: They passed this Adulteration of Food and Drink Act in 138 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty. Alright, So did this just put a complete 139 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: style up to the whole wine fraud business or what 140 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: or not at all? I mean the added scrutiny and 141 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: growing awareness of why fraud mostly just got criminals to 142 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: think more creatively about the whole business. I did read 143 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: about this amazing American wine scam that grape growers started 144 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: during Prohibition, and it was actually pretty clever. So at 145 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: the time, the Volstead Act made it so that, you know, 146 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: that grapes could only be grown if they were to 147 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: be used for nonalcoholic consumption, like you know, eating on 148 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: their own or made into grape juice or I guess, 149 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, non alcoholic wine. And so this left American 150 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: grape growers with two pretty bad options. They could either 151 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: like rip out all their grapevines and plan a different crop, 152 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: or try to sell the grape some other way and 153 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: then just you know, kind of hope that there would 154 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: be a constitutional amendment that would come along later. And 155 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: so now some owners chose the first, of course, and 156 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: that was the much safer option, and they immediately started 157 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: replacing their grapevines with orchards. But you have these other 158 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: former winemakers who decided to try, you know, that the 159 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: second option, and ultimately that's what actually saved the entire 160 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: California wine industry. I mean, that's pretty fascinating, but it 161 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: was grape juice that popular, Like, how are they still 162 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: doing good business during this time? No, I mean, grape 163 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: juice was not that popular. And so basically, the grape 164 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: growers they would they they found a loophole. Actually, it 165 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: was perfectly legal to produce. It was so called non 166 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: alcoholic wine that could theoretically be turned into real wine 167 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: by the consumers. So the only catch was they had 168 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: to make it clear that fermenting the wine would be illegal. 169 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: So with this in mind, the vineyards started selling these 170 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: quote wine bricks, and they were basically just these big 171 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: chunks of grape concentrate that came bundled with a packet 172 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: of yeast. I mean, that's ridiculous. It's like the blue 173 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: apron of wine or Hello Fresh who sponsored the show. 174 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: So we're gonna go with that, that's right. The bricks 175 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: also came with a warning label that warned consumers against, 176 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, combining the concentrate in yeast with water and 177 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: sugar in a sealed pot and then and then letting 178 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: that pot sit in a cooled cover for twenty one 179 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: day straight. And so it more than they should definitely 180 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: not do that, or else they you know, wind up 181 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: with an alcoholic beverage, even if it was a delicious 182 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: alcoholic beverage, they should definitely not do this. It feels 183 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: like very specific instructions on what not to do. Yeah, 184 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: it's so subtle, right, but I mean it actually worked 185 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: incredibly well for the grape growers and kept them afloat 186 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: during America's failed attempt at sobriety. And so wine concentrates 187 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: like this had actually been sold pre prohibition for a 188 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: little less than ten dollars a ton, but just four 189 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: years into prohibition, the price had increased by nearly four 190 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: thousand percent and they were selling for almost four hundred 191 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: dollars a ton. And so it was this rise and 192 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: profits that attracted new grape growers to Napa Valley, and 193 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: among them was Caesar Mundabi. You know, that name obviously 194 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: sounds familiar to many people, and he was this Minnesota 195 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: grocer who began his family's wine dynasty actually during the 196 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: heart of the prohibition era. That's amazing, and I actually 197 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: love how the story really makes you root for winemakers, 198 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: because that's not something that happens too often with wine crimes, right, 199 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: I mean, especially nowadays where most wine fraud tends to 200 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: be perpetrated among these high end wine collectors, and so 201 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: it is a little tough to drum up sympathy when 202 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: it's just like millionaires ripping off other millionaires. Yeah, I 203 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: know what you mean. So talking to wine frauds, did 204 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: you hear about those counterfeit wines that supposedly belonged to 205 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson that went up for auction at Christie's in 206 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, I don't think so. So one of 207 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: the bottles, which was a seventeen eighty seven Chateau Lafitte Bordeaux, 208 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: was sold to Chris and Malcolm Forbes for a hundred 209 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: and fifty six thousand dollars. And this is actually the 210 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: most that a single bottle of wine had ever been 211 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: sold for at the time. So we're talking about the 212 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: Forbes family, like Forbes Magazine and all of that empire, right, 213 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: and for years this phony bottle of wine was actually 214 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: the pride of the Forbes collection. Apparently, when Malcolm Forbes 215 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: learned that he'd won the bid, he said, and this 216 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: is a direct quote, it's more fun than the opera 217 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: glasses Lincoln was holding when he was shot. And I 218 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: have those two, Right, that's just such an insane statement. 219 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: And I guess when you're that rich, you're just looking 220 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: for ways to spend your money. But the craziest thing 221 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: is that the Forbes family didn't find out that they've 222 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: been scammed until two decades after the fact. You know, 223 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: to your earlier point, it is a little bit difficult 224 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: to drum up sympathy when people are saying stuff like that. 225 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: But I'm curious, so why did it take these two 226 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: decades to figure out they've been scamped? Partly it's because 227 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: the story is just so believable. So Thomas Jefferson was 228 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: famous for his love of fine food and wine, which 229 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: you'd grown accustomed to during his time in Europe. Then, 230 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: in fact, during his time in the White House, Jefferson 231 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: actually spent over sixteen thousand dollars which is about three 232 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars in today's money, on wine, amassing a 233 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: private collection of more than twenty thousand bottles. So, I mean, 234 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: all that kind of sets the stage right, Like, then 235 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 1: you've got Forbes who hears the story of a well 236 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: known German wine enthusiast who supposedly like found Jefferson's wine 237 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: hidden behind a brick wall in Paris, and there was 238 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: little reason to doubt him. I mean, the bottles even 239 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: had the right eights and the initials T h J 240 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: on them, and they were etched into the bottles, so 241 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: it all seemed real and that makes sense. But but 242 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: how did the Forbes family figure out they've been duped? Well, 243 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: the truth actually came out thanks to the efforts of 244 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: a different billionaire wine collector, so basically the German forger, 245 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: this guy named Hardy rodent Stock. He just wasn't content 246 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: with selling one bottle that he discovered behind the wall. 247 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: He also found four more bottles, which he sold for 248 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: half a million dollars to William Coke and you probably 249 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: recognize that name. He's the lesser known but still super 250 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: wealthy Coke brother who isn't as tangled up in politics. 251 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: And for a long time Coke also believed his bottles 252 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: were legitimate, but that changed in two thousand five when 253 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston was preparing to 254 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: exhibit his wine collection to the public, and basically the 255 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: museum contacted the Thomas Jefferson Foundation at Monticello, but none 256 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: of the historians could actually verify that the bottles belonged 257 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: to Jefferson. In fact, all of the evidence that they 258 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: had on hand pointed to the contrary. So what kind 259 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: of evidence are we talking about. Well, Jefferson actually kept 260 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: meticulous records on everything, you know, Jefferson being Jefferson, and 261 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: this included all the wines he'd ever bought while in France. 262 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: And according to one of Monticello's senior historians, and here 263 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: I'm just going to quote the note he wrote in 264 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: his vast records of over sixty thousand documents, there was 265 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: nothing that suggested Jefferson had ever ordered any of these wines. 266 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: In the so called Jefferson bottles, there were about a 267 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: dozen bottles, including seventeen eighty four and a seventeen eighty 268 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: seven Chateau to Kim, a seventeen seven Lafitte or Margo. 269 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: Most of them were seventeen eighty seven, a vintage Jefferson 270 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: never ordered in his life. Wow. So, I mean that 271 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: is pretty compelling evidence, but meticulous or not, I mean, 272 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: there's always the chance that Jefferson made a mistake in 273 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: his records, right, Yeah, that's true, which is why Bill 274 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: Coke actually leaned on a private investigator and a former 275 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: FBI agent, this guy named Jim Elroy to get to 276 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: the bottom of things. Alright, I definitely want to hear 277 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: all this panned out. But before you cluisen, let's take 278 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: a quick break. You're listening to Part Time Genius and 279 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about the most famous wine crimes in history. 280 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: All right, mango, So what happened with Elroy's investigation? I'm 281 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: assuming he found a way to prove that the Jefferson 282 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: wine was fake, right, So he did, but it was 283 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: not easy. So at first he started looking for ways 284 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: to prove that the wine itself didn't really date back 285 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: to the eighteenth century. And the tricky part is finding 286 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: a way to do it without opening the bottles. Right, Like, 287 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: you know, just in cases hunch was wrong. You don't 288 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: want to mess up these wonderful bottles of wine. So 289 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: this is kind of amazing. But Elroy found a solution 290 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: in the research of this French physicist named Philip Hubert. 291 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: And Hubert found a way to use low level gamma 292 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: ray detection to date wine without actually having to remove 293 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: it from the bottle. Wait, so how do how does 294 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: that work? Basically, you try to determine if the wine 295 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: contains any traces of caesium seven. And this is a 296 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: radio active isotope that doesn't occur in nature. So prior 297 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: to the Atomic Age, this isotope just straight up didn't 298 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: exist on Earth. But after the use of nuclear bombs, 299 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: it was literally everywhere, including like the atmosphere, the rain, soil, grapes, 300 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: and eventually in wine. Alright, So so this test can't 301 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: determine exactly when a wine was bottled, but it can 302 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: at least tell you if the bottle was before or 303 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: after what like the mid forties or so exactly, which 304 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: would have been enough for Elroy, like if the bottles 305 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: contained season one seven, then they couldn't have been bottled 306 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century. But Hubert's tests actually came back negative, 307 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: which proved the wine had been bottled prior to the 308 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: Atomic Age, though not necessarily as far back as Jefferson. 309 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: Oh wow, so that's a pretty good curb also, so 310 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: Elroy then had to come up with a plan B. 311 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: So so what did he do? Yeah, Elroy went back 312 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: to the drawing board and he started assembling this crack 313 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: team of wine fraudc experts, including a retired Scotland yard inspector, 314 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: a former m I five agent and even a master 315 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: glass engraver. And since efforts to uncover for on in 316 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: the wine itself had failed, the team turned their attention 317 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: to the other way to counterfeit one, which is just 318 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: by messing with the bottle. And this is where the 319 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: expert engraver comes in, because the team was actually able 320 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: to prove that the etched initials on the bottle had 321 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: been done with an electric dentist drill, which of course 322 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: was not a thing in the eighteenth century. Wow, I mean, 323 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: like it's so crazy that that was the deciding factor. 324 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of guessing they wish they'd looked 325 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: closer at the bottle before they started doing all those seasons. Mean, 326 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: as interesting as that is, because I'm guessing these physicists 327 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: don't come cheap for that kind of investigation. Yeah, I mean, 328 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: we didn't even get a detail there, because that part 329 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: wasn't easy either. Like Elroy had personally flown to the 330 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: French Italian border and he delivered the bottles in a 331 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: bulletproof case and and then he barely carried out the 332 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: experiment a mile underground. And this was to prevent interference 333 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: from atmospheric gamma rays like it was just way more 334 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: complicated than taking a closer look at the glass. But 335 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: in the end, Elroy was able to prove the bottles 336 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: were fraudulent, and in two thousand six Bill Coke followed 337 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: the lawsuit against Hardy Rodenstock in New York. You know, 338 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: the timing of all of this is also super interesting 339 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: because it was around this same time, you know, you'd 340 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: be looking at the opposite side of the country that 341 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: probably the most notorious wine counterfeiter to date was just 342 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: starting to come into his own. Yeah. I mean, I'm 343 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: guessing you're talking about Rudy, right, Yeah, So this is 344 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: Rudy carneiloh one. And for those who aren't familiar with 345 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: his story, Rudy was this mysterious young wine collector who 346 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: made a name for himself in the l A wine scene. 347 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: And this was in the early two thousand's. And I 348 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: say mysterious because he sort of came out of nowhere 349 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: and nobody really knew much about him at the time. Now, 350 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: this should have raised some suspicions in this upper crust 351 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: and the wine circles there that he managed to infiltrate, 352 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: but you know, most of his new friends chose to 353 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: ignore the mystery just on account of his deep pockets. 354 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: He would often pay the bill at these lavish dinners 355 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: and wine tastings, you know, for all the other enthusiasts 356 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: that were there, and he seemed to have this knack 357 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: for tracking down these hard to come by vintages and 358 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: and to get them at these uncommonly good price. Of course, again, 359 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: these folks should have and suspicious rudy, but they weren't. Yeah, 360 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, he's sort of like that guy who made 361 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: the room, Like nobody knew where he was from or 362 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: how he got his money. But hey, he's generous and 363 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: fun of me around, so why rock the boat with 364 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: any questions? Yeah, I mean, that seems to be what 365 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: was going on, and it was really all about the 366 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: wine for the people that he ran with. For instance, 367 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: one of the group's rudy frequented was called angry Men, 368 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: and they called themselves that because of how mad they 369 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: would get whenever they took a nice bottle of wine 370 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: to a party, only to find out that everyone else 371 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: had brought the cheap stuff, you know, So that these 372 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: angry Men dinners, all the guests would bring these really 373 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: fancy and expensive bottles of wine, and everyone would just 374 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: get schlaushed, and they would drink as much as like 375 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars worth of wine in a single evening. 376 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: Two dollars that's insane. Yeah, I haven't drunk that much 377 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: in one night ever. Yes, yeah, dropping those big bills. 378 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: But you know, it wasn't long before Rudy got into 379 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: the auction scene and and sort of became the go 380 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: to guy for rare Burgundy, and he was buying and 381 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: selling some of the finest wines of the twentieth century 382 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: and making bank in the process. And his biggest payday 383 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: came in two thousand and six when he sold almost 384 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: twenty five million dollars worth of wine in a single auction. Now, 385 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: the previous sales record had been something like fifteen million, 386 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: so we're talking a huge gain on that. But the 387 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: writing was already on the wall. So a year or 388 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: two later, a bunch of bottles of this rare burgundy 389 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: from the domain Ponsant wine House. They began to appear, 390 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: with vintages dating between nineteen forty five and nineteen seventy one, 391 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: and the head of this winery, Lauren Posas, found this 392 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: to be exceptionally odd because his family hadn't started making 393 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: this particular red wine until nineteen eighty two. So, knowing 394 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: something was up, he launched his own international investigation into 395 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: Rudy's shady dealings. Now, he did this mostly as a 396 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: way to defend the good name of Burgundy. As he 397 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: later told a reporter, the fakes are like a piece 398 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: of dirt on the name of Burgundy, and I wanted 399 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: to wash it off. I mean, that's funny growing from 400 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: a wine growing region, like the idea of dirt on 401 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem that bad. But I love his intensity 402 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: and and his love for Burgundy. I mean, his family 403 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: name was on the line too. But around the same 404 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: time Ponceaux was conducting his investigation, you look across the pond, 405 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: You've got Bill Coke, who was launching another one of 406 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: his own. So he'd been burned so badly on his 407 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: Jefferson bottles that Coke started scouring his collection for other 408 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: potential fakes, and he actually found dozens, I mean, many 409 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: of which had come directly or at least indirectly from Rudy. Meanwhile, 410 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: more and more suspicious bottles were popping up at auctions, 411 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: and this was drawing the attention of the FBI as well. 412 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: So I've actually read about the raid on Rudy's condo 413 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: back in two thousand twelve, and his whole place was 414 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: decked out like this makeshift factory. They found uh bottles 415 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: of wine just soaking in the kitchen sink so the 416 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: labels could be easily removed, and and there were all 417 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: these like quirking tools and thousands and thousands of fake 418 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: wine labels that he'd forged from this enormous laser printer. 419 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: And you know, of course us they were all for 420 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: really prestigious wines from Brigadi and Bordeaux. Yeah, that's right. 421 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: And maybe most damning of all, the FBI found all 422 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: these intricate tasting notes that Rudy had assembled, so apparently 423 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: he'd been taking cheaper wines, mixing them together, and then 424 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, putting them in these more expensive bottles, sometimes 425 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: also altering the bottles to make them seem more valuable 426 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: as well. I mean, the worst part for him was 427 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: that in a lot of cases, Rudy's formulas were written 428 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: out for the different wines that he planned to counterfeit, 429 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: so basically he was making these imitations of rare wines 430 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: that he had tasted once before. But he wasn't exactly 431 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: a hack like, he was really exacting about how to 432 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: best approximate the taste of each one, so they did 433 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: actually matched the label. Huh. I mean that's really interesting 434 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: because I've heard that with rare old wines like this, 435 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: most people are pretty clueless about the taste. And sometimes 436 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: you're dealing with wine from a hundred years ago, so 437 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: nobody knows what's supposed to taste like. And they probably 438 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: paid so much for it anyway, that they aren't in 439 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 1: any sort of hurry to open it. Yeah. I mean, 440 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: the care he showed was really unusual, and especially considering 441 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: how unlikely it was that collectors would ever even open 442 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: these bottles. But in the end, Rudy's extensive notes and 443 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: this condo full of equipment really shed some light on 444 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: his overall plan. So by bidding high for wines at auction, 445 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: Rudy had driven up the market values and and that 446 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: really paved the way for higher returns when he later 447 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: released all these counterfeit bottles back into circulation. All told, 448 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: Rudy had flooded the market with an estimated fifteen thousand 449 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: bottles of counterfeit wine over the course of about a 450 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: decade or so. So despite the fact that he was 451 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: artfully blending these drinks, the FBI had to take him 452 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: down and take him down hard. So two years after 453 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: the raid, Rudy was sentenced to ten years in prison, 454 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: which made him the first person in the US to 455 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: ever be convicted of wine fraud. I mean that itself 456 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: is crazy, right, I mean, the first person to ever 457 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: be convicted of the wine fraud. So I know there's 458 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: a little bit left to say about Rudy Kerney Allen's case, 459 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: and I thought it might be fun to talk about 460 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: some of the more tail signs of wine fraud. But 461 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: before we get into any of that, let's take another break. 462 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're talking wine frauds. Okay, So, 463 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: so well, I do want to make sure we don't 464 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: overlook an important detail that you mentioned about Rudy's case, 465 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: which is that he produced an absolutely insane amount of 466 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: bake wine, especially for a one man operation. And I 467 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: want to say, you said it was like fifteen thousand 468 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: bottles that he manufactured. Yeah, it's I mean, it's a 469 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: tremendous number. And that high volume is actually something that 470 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: his supporters have pointed to his evidence that he couldn't 471 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: have done what he did. And there's actually a fair 472 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: amount of evidence that suggests Rudy wasn't acting alone. You know. 473 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: For instance, according to investigators, Rudy had these two uncles 474 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: who were supposedly notorious Indonesian bankropt Really that's amazing. Yeah, 475 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: the story just gets better and better as you dig 476 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: deeper into it. They were pretty good at their work too, 477 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: so they're responsible for about eight hundred million dollars and 478 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: stolen funds, most of which has never been recovered. There's 479 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: also a paper trail that shows Rudy wire tens of 480 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: millions of dollars to his brothers in Hong Kong and 481 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: Indonesia during the height of his scheme. Well, I mean, 482 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: that would certainly explain where his money was coming from, 483 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: as well as who might have been helping with his operation. 484 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: But still, you've got to think if his uncles are 485 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: such well known criminals, you think that the FBI would 486 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: have taken an interest much sooner. I mean, why did 487 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: it take p I s to figure this stuff out? 488 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I'd wondered about that too, and it turns 489 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: out that a big reason why his family's criminal connections 490 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: went unnoticed for so long was that Rudy was using 491 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: a fake name the whole time. According to one of 492 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: Bill Coke's investigators, Rudy Kerney Owen is just a made 493 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: up name from two famous Indonesian badminton players. How great. Yeah, 494 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: I thought it sounded familiar. It's just everyone knows Batman players. 495 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so random, it's actually kind of awesome. 496 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: But I'm curious whatever hap into Rudy's fifteen thousand fakes, Like, 497 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: are are they still floating around on the market? Well, 498 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: a lot of them definitely are. I think only about 499 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: a third of Rudy's wines had been accounted for it 500 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: last count, and most of those have since been destroyed 501 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: at landfill sites. And all of this is done under 502 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: the supervision of US marshals. And it's actually kind of 503 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: a bummer when you think about how selective Rudy was 504 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: about his blending. Yeah, I mean, the bottles definitely weren't 505 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: worth what he was charging. But this wasn't stuff you'd 506 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: find on the average store shelf either. I know, as 507 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: you were describing the process, like it made me want 508 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: to taste some of these wines, and it is such 509 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: a shame. Still, a lot of good has come out 510 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: of these two big cases we've been talking about, because 511 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: obviously rodent stock was kind of the precursor, and then 512 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: you've got a Kerney owen, and both of those methods 513 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: taught fraud investigators so many tricks for how to tell 514 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: an authentic bottle from a fake. And obviously it's no 515 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: coincidence that Bill Coke was one of the pivotal figures 516 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: and bringing this down, because you know, he really understood 517 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: that the key to authentication was paying attention to the 518 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: wine packaging and not to the wine itself. Yeah, and 519 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. I was actually reading 520 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: up on some of the more tech based solutions out there, 521 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: and most of them have lower success rates than simply 522 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: looking for discrepancies and the labels or the bottles. You know. 523 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: For example, there's this device that came out a few 524 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: years ago called the Corvan system, and it's basically this 525 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: fancy corkscrew that lets you extract wine from a bottle 526 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: without having to remove the cork. So you just stick 527 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: this thin hollow needle through the cork and then the 528 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: wine is pushed into the holes on the side of 529 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: the needle, and then it carries it through the device, 530 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: and lastly it's pumped into your glass. Wow. Yeah, and 531 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: so so the whole idea was that the auction houses 532 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: could use this tool as a way to let bidders 533 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: sample the wine prior to the sale, you know, without 534 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: having to open and then devalue the whole bottle. I mean, 535 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: that's amazing, and it actually sounds amazing and theory. But 536 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, like we've already talked about, most people don't 537 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: know what old wine is supposed to taste like, right, Well, yeah, 538 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: and that's not even the only problem. So according to 539 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: Maureen Downey, who's one of the world's leading wine authenticators, 540 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: counterfeiters are already using the core of n device to 541 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: remove fine wine from the bottle and then just pump 542 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: the cheaper stuff in in its place. So what was 543 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: supposed to be like this revolutionary tool for verifying wines 544 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: is now providing one of the easiest ways to create 545 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: fake ones. I mean, that's terrible and it must have 546 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: been so frustrating through whoever came up with this ingenious solution, 547 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: But you know, it is funny that the tool I've 548 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: heard is most helpful for detecting counterfeit wine is actually 549 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: like a super low tech one, and that's the jeweler's loop, 550 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: which is the round magnifying device that jewelers used for 551 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: I guess, finding imperfections and diamonds and rubies and whatever. 552 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: But with one of those, you can actually spot all 553 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: kinds of inconsistencies, like you can find thumb prints on 554 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: wax seals that should have been applied by machines, or 555 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: other subtle differences like label colors, like the kind of 556 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: details that point to inject printing over actually I guess 557 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: like old fashioned ways of making labels. Yeah, that makes sense. 558 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: And I've even heard about some of the more glaring 559 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: errors that could be spotted just with the naked eye, 560 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: as long as you know what you're looking for, Like 561 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: sometimes counterfeiters get pretty lazy and they wind up misspelling 562 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: the name of a wine, or they may release a 563 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: particular vintage and a larger size bottle than it was 564 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: ever actually sold in. But probably my favorite dumb mistake though, 565 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: is this counterfeiter who tried to sell this supposedly very 566 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: old wine, but he ended up putting it into bottles 567 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: that had a recycling logo on the bottom. That's incredible. So, 568 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it really seems that the best way to 569 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: protect yourself against wine fraud is just to be super 570 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: knowledgeable about what you're trying to buy, right Yeah, And 571 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that doesn't seem like too much 572 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: to ask, given the price labels that we're dealing with, 573 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: and you know, the kinds of wines that that get counterfeited. 574 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: Not to mention how extensive the problem of wine fraud 575 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: seems to be now right, and and nowadays there's even 576 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: an option to outsource that attention to detail and how 577 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: do you do that? So big name cases like Rudy's 578 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: have actually shined a spotlight on just how pervasive the 579 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: problem with wine fraud is. And you know Maureen Downey, 580 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: who you talked about earlier, she actually estimates that the 581 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: total value of all fake wine on the market is 582 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: about three bill billion dollars. I mean, that's just unbelievable, 583 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: and over half a billion of that actually comes from 584 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: Rudy alone. But other wine industry estimates say that at 585 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: this point, around twenty of all wine and circulation is counterfeit. 586 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: So I guess like the need for wine authentication is 587 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: definitely there, and consultants like Downey have actually been stepping 588 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: up to meet the challenge in lots of different ways, 589 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: And one of those is through a website that Downey 590 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: here self started called wine fraud dot Com. I haven't 591 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: actually been to the site. So it's just like an 592 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: online guide for spotting forgeries, yeah, I mean, it has 593 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: tutorials of like how to recognize fraud and and there's 594 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: also like a gallery of legitimate samples of popular wine 595 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: so you can actually compare the real things to any 596 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: potential fakes in their collections. And on the paid version 597 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: of the site, because there's always a paid version, users 598 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: can actually team up with experts to get their bottles verified. Well, 599 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: that does sound pretty handy, and I guess if you're 600 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: dropping a thousand bucks or so on the bottom of wine, 601 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: you might as well pay a little extra to make 602 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: sure that this thing is legitimate. Yeah, I mean, or 603 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: you could just switch to beer. But good advice. But 604 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: speaking of things to watch out where I I do 605 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: think it's time to pop the cork on today's backed off, 606 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: So let's dive in. M So I'm gonna kick this off. 607 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: Did you know that the French sometimes eat rats, and 608 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: it's a dish occasionally served in Bordeaux, but you only 609 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: use alcoholic rats who've been hanging out in wine cellars. Basically, 610 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: you brushed them with lots of olive oil and shallots, 611 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: and apparently they're grilled over wine barrels to get even 612 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: more of that winey flavor. It's supposed to be delicious. 613 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think i'd probably need a few 614 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: glasses of actual wine before trying that. But have you 615 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: heard about this wine called nineteen Crimes? So it's almost 616 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: like Pokemon Go meets wine. So the nineteen Crimes refers 617 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: to the British prisoners who were sent to Australia and 618 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: each of them had been accused of one of the 619 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: nineteen crimes of the time. I just read about this recently, 620 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: but the crimes were things like impersonating an Egyptian and 621 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: stealing letters and anyway. You could hold up a wine 622 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: bottle to your phone and it tells you the crime stories. 623 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: So you get some delicious notes of history with each glass. 624 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: And apparently the gimmick works because sales have been great. 625 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. So there's this two hundred mile pilgrimage 626 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: from Rome to Ortona in Italy called the Camino Descent Tomasso. UM. 627 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen this trend recently, but 628 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: like walking these Comino pilgrimages, has has just seen this 629 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: huge resurgence. But at the end of the road in Ortona, 630 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: there's something wonderful waiting for you. A wine fountain. It 631 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: runs twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, 632 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: and it's there specifically for thirsty pilgrims and also I 633 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: guess tourists. But they do ask you to keep it 634 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: to one glass, and according to Towny's quote, it isn't 635 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: for drunkards or louts. All right, well, this is super 636 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: short one, but did you realize there's a specially minimally 637 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: fermented wine that gets used at mass occasionally, so it's 638 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: made for priests who are recovering alcoholics. I like that. 639 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: So I don't think you and I were hip to 640 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: the four loco trend, but lucky for us, we can 641 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: still get in on this buck fast tonic wine. It's 642 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,239 Speaker 1: Scottish for logo, it's it's proved by monks and it's 643 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: a fairly fient alcohol. By volume, so you know it's 644 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: gonna get you drunk and drop for drop. It also 645 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: contains approximately as much caffeine as six cups of coffee. 646 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: It's basically a recipe for disaster and and people have 647 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: been quick to link it to crimes. Supposedly it led 648 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: to over five thousand penny crimes and fights in a 649 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: small region of Scotland over two or three years. But 650 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: the funniest thing I've read about it was this review 651 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: and Thrillist that said it's the scourge of the drinking 652 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: class in the UK and the most polarizing thing to 653 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: come for monks since the bowl cut. That's pretty great. 654 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: I do have to admit that any fact off that 655 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: includes the words Scottish for loco is something that deserves 656 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: a trophy. So so Mango, I'm gonna give you this one. 657 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: Thank you, and that's it for today's show. If we've 658 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: forgotten any great facts about wine or wine fraud, we'd 659 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: love to hear those from. You can always email us 660 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: part time Genius and how Stuff Works dot com. You 661 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: can also call our seven fact hotline that's one eight 662 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: four four pt Genius, or hit us up on Facebook 663 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: or Twitter. Thanks so much, for listening. Thanks again for listening. 664 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of how stuff works, 665 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do 666 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: the important things we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan 667 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme 668 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland 669 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: does the exact producer thing. Gaveluesier is our lead researcher, 670 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: with support from the Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan 671 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: Brown and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets the 672 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like 673 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if you 674 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 1: really really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave 675 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: a good review for us. Do we do? We forget Jason? 676 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: Jason who did the depict depict the dep