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Speaker 1: Hey, they're extraordinaries Kelly here, So I absolutely cannot believe

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Speaker 1: this is happening. But my book A City on Mars

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Speaker 1: is Barnes and Nobles Nonfiction pick for August. I am

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Speaker 1: so excited. So if you swing by your local Barnes

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Speaker 1: and Noble, there's likely a display near the front of

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Speaker 1: the store with my book, and of course it's on

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Speaker 1: Barnes and Nobles's website as well. So to learn about

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Speaker 1: where we're likely to settle in space, whether we can

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Speaker 1: make babies in space, why astronauts love taco sauce, and

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Speaker 1: the legal status of space cannibalism, head over to Barnes

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Speaker 1: and Noble and check out A City on Mars? Can

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Speaker 1: we settle Space? Should we settle space? And have we

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Speaker 1: really thought this through?

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Speaker 2: Thanks?

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Speaker 3: Everyone.

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Speaker 2: We smash particles together at the Large Adron Collider not

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Speaker 2: just because it's cool or because we want to know

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Speaker 2: what the universe is made out of. It's all those reasons,

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Speaker 2: but also we want to understand how those basic bits

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Speaker 2: of matter come together to make up our world. Why

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Speaker 2: do they interact this way not that way? Can they

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Speaker 2: fit together in some new way? We've never seen the

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Speaker 2: story of particle physics discoveries is a story of cycles,

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Speaker 2: swinging between confusion the many kinds of particles to insight

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Speaker 2: about how they come together. Today we'll be tackling a

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Speaker 2: topic that has received a lot of attention recently in

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Speaker 2: the news. Topponium. What is it and what does it

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Speaker 2: tell us about the nature of matter and energy? It

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Speaker 2: turns out to be the latest chapter in a rich

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Speaker 2: history of discovery, betrayal, and urination. Yes, that's right, I

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Speaker 2: said urination. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Kelly Waidersmith.

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Speaker 1: I study parasites and space, and I do not know

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Speaker 1: what toponium is.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist. I do know

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Speaker 2: what toponium is, and I'm also looking forward to declaring

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Speaker 2: the discovery of white sonium.

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Speaker 3: Oh that would be great, So I await that day.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure it will come.

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Speaker 1: But my question for you today is what is your

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Speaker 1: favorite name for a physics thing? What do you think

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Speaker 1: is like the best name physicists have come up with

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Speaker 1: for something so far.

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Speaker 2: I think one of my favorite names is the rate

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Speaker 2: of change of acceleration, which is called jerk which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, also a fun word, but it's kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, you can jerked around. It kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I like that.

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Speaker 1: All right, good, good job physicists, you got one.

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Speaker 2: But before you applaud us too much for giving jerk

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Speaker 2: a cool name.

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Speaker 3: I all just named it, didn't.

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Speaker 2: They They went a little crazy after jerk and rate

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Speaker 2: of change jerk is called snap, and the rate of

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Speaker 2: changes snap is called crackle. And the rate of change

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Speaker 2: of crackle You want to guess pop?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet that was named by children of the eighties,

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Speaker 3: isn't that when raised Chrispy's a hit their zenith of popularity.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Physicists trying desperately for cultural relevance.

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Speaker 3: Sorry guys, but you know, we do our best to

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Speaker 3: be relevant because in the NB are trying to understand

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Speaker 3: the way the world works, what it's all made out of,

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Speaker 3: what you are made out of, what.

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Speaker 2: Your breakfast cereal is made out of, and more than

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Speaker 2: just what it's made out of, but what it can do,

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Speaker 2: because your life isn't dominated by fundamental particles, but by

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Speaker 2: those particles put together an interesting, weird, delicious, and hilarious ways.

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Speaker 3: Oh I like the delicious ways. I think that's my favorite.

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Speaker 1: So you sent me an outline I said, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about toponium, and I was like, well, this is yet

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Speaker 1: another one of those instances where Kelly gets to learn

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Speaker 1: on air and ask stupid questions.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea what this is.

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Speaker 2: Intelligent questions, intelligent questions. Intelligence, that's what you're here for.

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Speaker 3: That's right. I'm continuing to earn my pod in physics.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, we are also offering a POD in physics

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Speaker 1: to our listeners, and so let's go ahead and hear

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Speaker 1: what they think.

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Speaker 3: To Ponium is the particle with the most protons neutrons,

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Speaker 3: electrons crammed into it to make it the biggest, biggest

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Speaker 3: top of the table.

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Speaker 2: Element theoretical matter that has a top quack or something

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Speaker 2: like that. Probably some type of metal like strontium.

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Speaker 4: That sounds like an element.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but it sounds like a chemical element.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to assume that to ponium is related to

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Speaker 3: physics and not biology, so there's a good chance that

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Speaker 3: it's a mathematical equation. It's the opposite of bottominium.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, a mineral developed for the Marvel cinematic universe.

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Speaker 3: And then stolen by James Cameron for an upcoming film.

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Speaker 2: Matter perhaps purely fear ratical composed of top quarks only

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Speaker 2: Toponium is the top quark matter fraction of unobtainium after

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Speaker 2: quantum centrifugal separation of unobtainium, or.

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Speaker 4: The theoretical element with no protons and no electrons gets

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Speaker 4: its own special row at the top of the periodic table.

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Speaker 4: Thus topponium, toponium or not toponium, that is the question.

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Speaker 2: Rare element, I would say, perhaps a hypothesized element that

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Speaker 2: hasn't been discovered yet.

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Speaker 5: I've never heard of toponium, but it ends in iem,

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Speaker 5: so it makes me think of deuterium or tritium, some

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Speaker 5: sort of combination of things. But the only top anel

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Speaker 5: is a quark, so it's not some weird combination of

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Speaker 5: only top quarks, is it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, But if it doesn't sit on top

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Speaker 3: of middleium and botamium, I'm going to be very disappointed.

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Speaker 3: These are wonderful answers, I mean, as always, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: this one in particular had a lot of funny answers,

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Speaker 3: and I'm guess that's because a lot of people are

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Speaker 3: in my situation which is to say, no idea, Daniel,

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Speaker 3: absolutely no clue.

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Speaker 2: And they're trying to reverse engineered from the name, which

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Speaker 2: is smart but assumes the physicists give names to things

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Speaker 2: in logical ways that can be reverse engineered, which isn't

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Speaker 2: always true.

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Speaker 3: Big mistake, Big mistake. That's right.

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Speaker 1: It's either confusing or wrong or misleading something like that.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, let's not keep people in suspense anymore.

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Speaker 2: Toponium is a fascinating new thing recently explored by the

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Speaker 2: Large Hadron Collider, and it has to do with how

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Speaker 2: quarks can come together, which is a whole fascinating area

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Speaker 2: of physics that explains how I'm built and you're build

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Speaker 2: and how the whole world around us comes together. Plus

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Speaker 2: is filled with crazy stories of physicists being outrageous amazing.

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Speaker 1: So when you say recently, do you mean like this

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Speaker 1: decade or yeah, what do you mean by recently?

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Speaker 2: The toponium paper came out last year? Oh wow, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is a fresh hot off the press, and a

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Speaker 2: bunch of people emailed me and said, hey, can when

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Speaker 2: you explain this? I don't understand it, because probably the

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Speaker 2: paper was too hard to digest, and even the Science

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Speaker 2: communication articles about toponym. I felt like they talk about it,

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Speaker 2: but they don't really convey the crucial ideas that I

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Speaker 2: want people to understand about why this is exciting area

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Speaker 2: of research.

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Speaker 1: And we are here for the one hour version of

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Speaker 1: all of those things. So let's start from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: What is a quark? And you gave me the ability

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Speaker 1: to explain this to my daughter the other day we

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Speaker 1: were talking about quarks, and I felt pretty cool that

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Speaker 1: I could go ahead and kind of explain it.

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Speaker 3: But let's hear it from you.

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Speaker 2: So quarks are something we discovered about fifty years ago.

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Speaker 2: They're what make up the protons and the neutrons. So

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Speaker 2: you know, you and I are made out of molecules.

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Speaker 2: Those molecules are made out of atoms. Every atom has

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Speaker 2: a nucleus in it with protons and neutrons surrounded by electrons.

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Speaker 2: But those protons and neutrons are not fundamental. They are

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Speaker 2: made up of other smaller particles called quarks. And in particular,

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Speaker 2: there's two quarks, the upcork and the down cork that

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Speaker 2: make up the proton and the neutron. I know this

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Speaker 2: for sure until about the late sixties and seventies, and

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Speaker 2: how we figured out that protons and neutrons are made

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Speaker 2: of quarks. Is a really fun story and a tricky

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Speaker 2: one because we can't see quarks by themselves. We have

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Speaker 2: to infer their existence. There's a lot of really cool

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Speaker 2: and mathematical puzzles that had to be solved to even

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Speaker 2: suggest that quarks might be there. So to set the stage,

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Speaker 2: we have to go back to like the late nineteen forties.

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Speaker 2: What was the state of particle physics in the late

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Speaker 2: nineteen forties. Well, we knew about electrons, We knew about

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Speaker 2: protons and neutrons. We also knew that there were photons

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Speaker 2: out there, right Like, we'd seen photons. Einstein and Planck

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Speaker 2: and those guys revolutionized quantum mechanics with a photoelectric effect

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Speaker 2: and the idea of photons light as a packet and

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Speaker 2: in cosmic rays. We'd seen a few other weird particles

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Speaker 2: like muons and pions, but things seemed kind of tidy,

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Speaker 2: Like we had a few particles, they all came together

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Speaker 2: to mostly explain everything we knew. People felt like, hey,

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Speaker 2: we're maybe on the verge of like nailing this, you know,

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Speaker 2: narrowing things down. We'd gone from like infinite complexity of

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Speaker 2: chemistry down to like a one hundred basic building blocks

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Speaker 2: and the periodic table. Now we were down to like

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Speaker 2: three objects protons and neutrons and electrons that made everything

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Speaker 2: lava and kittens and ice cream and podcasters and everything.

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Speaker 2: People felt like, oh yeah, we're on the track. And

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Speaker 2: then came the nineteen fifties where everything got weird.

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Speaker 3: When you start to feel confident, the universe kicks you

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Speaker 3: in the face.

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Speaker 2: And this came about because we had a revolution in

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Speaker 2: particle physics technologies. Beforehand, we mostly relied on the universe

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Speaker 2: to accelerate our particles. So many of the discoveries were

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Speaker 2: making of weird particles were cosmic rays, super high energy

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Speaker 2: particles that hit the upper atmosphere and then showered. So

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Speaker 2: people would like send balloons up into the upper atmosphere

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Speaker 2: or leave like big blocks of photographic material on the

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Speaker 2: tops of mountains and then slice it super thin and

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Speaker 2: expose it.

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Speaker 1: Fun fact, the first chicken sandwich to go to space

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Speaker 1: was sent up on a balloon by KFC.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, move on exactly.

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Speaker 2: You can accomplish a lot of things with balloons.

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Speaker 4: Yea.

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Speaker 2: These balloons are amazing also because they start out like

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Speaker 2: pretty big on the ground, and then when they get

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Speaker 2: to the upper atmosphere because the pressure is solo, they

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Speaker 2: become enormous, like mind boggling, like football stadium size balloons

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Speaker 2: when they're in the upper atmosphere. It's incredible. Anyway, we've

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Speaker 2: been doing particle physics that way. It's just like, hey,

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Speaker 2: let's let the universe accelerate stuff and watch it as

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Speaker 2: it smashes into the atmosphere. And that was useful, and

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Speaker 2: that's how we saw muons and chaons and other kinds

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Speaker 2: of particles. But then folks figure it out better ways

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Speaker 2: to accelerate particles here on Earth. So cyclotrons and signotrons,

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Speaker 2: all these cool technologies to bend particles and a loop,

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Speaker 2: give them a kick and get them going to pretty

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Speaker 2: high energies. Let us smash particles together and open up

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Speaker 2: a whole golden era of discovery for particle physics.

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Speaker 3: And these things are amazing.

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Speaker 1: I got to go in the synchrotron facility in the

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Speaker 1: UK on Harwell's campus, cool.

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Speaker 3: And it was so cool.

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Speaker 1: They speed up X rays with magnets and they were

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Speaker 1: showing me how all this stuff works, and it was

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget it.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, cool facilities.

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Speaker 2: They can't speed up X rays with magnets. That doesn't

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Speaker 2: work because X rays are neutral and so they don't

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Speaker 2: feel magnets. But they probably generate X rays from high

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Speaker 2: end G particles accelerated and bent by magnets.

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Speaker 3: That is right, Thank you. I appreciate the correction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very cool technology. EO. Lawrence won Nobel Prizes

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Speaker 2: for this kind of stuff. It's why we have Lawrence

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Speaker 2: National Lab two, Lawrence National Labs. Actually, he's a really

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Speaker 2: smart dude. Anyway. By smashing particles into other particles, we

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Speaker 2: started discovering a bunch of really strange particles, particles we

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Speaker 2: literally called strange, like chaons and other kinds of pions

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Speaker 2: and all sorts of stuff. It was like every time

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Speaker 2: you turned on the accelerator you discovered a new particle,

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Speaker 2: which is crazy. That just doesn't happen these days.

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Speaker 3: That is crazy.

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Speaker 1: What you said, particles we literally called strange. There is

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Speaker 1: a particle called the strange particle.

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Speaker 2: There is a particle that called the strange part This

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Speaker 2: is a strange quirk. But initially there were particles that

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Speaker 2: we classified as strange. We described them as range. These

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Speaker 2: are chan particles, and these particles were strange because they

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Speaker 2: sort of lasted a long time and then decayed, which

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Speaker 2: people hadn't seen before. It turns out that's because they

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Speaker 2: were decaying via the weak force, which is pretty weak,

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Speaker 2: and so it takes a while for it to work.

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Speaker 2: But we didn't understand that at the time. But it

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Speaker 2: was an exciting moment because like every time we turned

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Speaker 2: on the accelerator, you made a new particle, you could

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Speaker 2: name it. It must have been a really fun time

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Speaker 2: to be a particle physicist. Yes, and they call this

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Speaker 2: time in particle physics the particle zoo.

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Speaker 1: I really love zoos, and I feel like I might

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Speaker 1: be disappointed if I saw a particle zoo instead of

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Speaker 1: a zoo zoo, but.

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Speaker 3: It sounds fun.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine physicists being like children enjoying the particle zoo.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you take it that way, because I think

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Speaker 2: it's actually intended as shade against biology. Yes, because this

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Speaker 2: is the era in particle physics where we were seeing

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Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff we didn't understand and we were

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Speaker 2: just naming it, and so I think they were like,

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Speaker 2: we're basically doing botany. You know, we don't understand anything.

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Speaker 2: We just give stuff names.

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Speaker 3: You guys suck.

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Speaker 2: But it's an exciting time to be an experimentalist because

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Speaker 2: you're discovering stuff that isn't predicted. It's not like here's

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Speaker 2: what the Higgs boson will look like, here's how you

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Speaker 2: find it, go do it. Check the box, or here's

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Speaker 2: the top quark. It's like, well, we're not understanding anything

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Speaker 2: you're doing. Stop discovering new particles, please, because we're confused.

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Speaker 2: But you know, for an explorer, that's an exciting time.

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Speaker 2: That's like, well we're just you know, collecting new stuff

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Speaker 2: and nobody understands. And it was a big puzzle. So

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Speaker 2: people have found all these particles and they were wondering

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Speaker 2: like are they all fundamental? Are we discovering a bunch

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Speaker 2: of new stuff that isn't made out of other stuff?

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Speaker 2: Is there a pattern somehow? So it was a big

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Speaker 2: theoretical puzzle, like what explains all of these new particles?

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Speaker 2: And people started thinking about it and trying to organize

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Speaker 2: it and like, hey, are there patterns here? Can we

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Speaker 2: look at the masses how many particles are there? And

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Speaker 2: a few clever people came up with some ideas to

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Speaker 2: explain all of these particles, and it was called the

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Speaker 2: eightfold way.

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Speaker 1: Oh all right, so I'm just about done stuffing the

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Speaker 1: anger that I'm feeling down that earlier comment. But you're

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Speaker 1: making me wonder the word particles. Is it part of

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Speaker 1: coles because it's part of other things? Was that why

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Speaker 1: you guys named it particles?

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Speaker 2: Hmmm? That's interesting. The etymology the word particle itself. I

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Speaker 2: think it comes from the concept of particle just being

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Speaker 2: a tiny bit of stuff, like the smallest particule, you know,

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Speaker 2: particularly small stuff.

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Speaker 3: Okay, got it, all right, so sorry, Moving on the

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Speaker 3: eightfold way.

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Speaker 2: The eightfold way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this sounds like something you would learn in a

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Speaker 1: martial arts class.

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Speaker 3: The eightfold way. So why was it called the eightfold way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the Tao of physics or something. Yes,

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Speaker 2: because people were looking for patterns, and they were starting

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Speaker 2: with the assumption that all these particles might be their

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Speaker 2: rearrangement of smaller bits, a smaller number of basic pieces.

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Speaker 2: So imagine you have like three different kinds of legos,

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Speaker 2: and then you ask like, well, what can I build

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Speaker 2: out of these legos? Okay, they click together this way

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Speaker 2: or that way or this other way. But if there's

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Speaker 2: a small number of them, there's a limited way they

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Speaker 2: can come together. And so people imagine, well, what if

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Speaker 2: we have like four different kinds of legos, what can

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Speaker 2: we explain? And they noticed that if you arrange the

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Speaker 2: newly discovered particles in a certain way, that can be

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Speaker 2: explained by having four different elementary pieces that all click together.

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Speaker 2: For example, these pieces all have different electric charge, and

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Speaker 2: so it predicts like a distribution of the electric charges

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Speaker 2: of all the particles you can make with these basic pieces.

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Speaker 1: And so does that mean they went looking then for

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Speaker 1: the four basic parts that would make up the rest

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Speaker 1: of the stuff.

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Speaker 2: Not initially. First thing they did is they said, well,

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Speaker 2: what's missing, Like, are there ways that you can put

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Speaker 2: these four basic pieces together to make a particle we

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Speaker 2: haven't seen yet? And Gellman famously stood up at a

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Speaker 2: conference and said, you know, I predict the existence of

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Speaker 2: this new particle. He called it the omega minus, which

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Speaker 2: would be a pure combination of the particle we'd later

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Speaker 2: call strange quarks, So three strange quarks put together, and

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Speaker 2: he even predicted with the mass of it would be.

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Speaker 2: And then they went out look for it and they

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Speaker 2: found it, and that was very compelling. That's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: make a prediction. You know, this isn't just mathematical. But

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Speaker 2: at the time, a lot of physicists were like, you know,

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Speaker 2: we haven't seen these particles. We're just seeing the combinations

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Speaker 2: of them. And while it's compelling to say, look, I

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Speaker 2: see their patterns in the particles that are consistent with

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Speaker 2: them being made out of a small number of more

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Speaker 2: basic elements, we haven't seen them directly, and so people

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Speaker 2: just thought of them as like, you know, a mathematical

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Speaker 2: calculational tool, the way people are down on string theory

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Speaker 2: these days, right, they're like, yeah, well string theory can

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Speaker 2: solve quantum gravity, but we never seen a string, so

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Speaker 2: how do we really know. It's just mathematics. So people

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Speaker 2: sort of dismissed it as like just a mathematical tool.

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Speaker 2: They called them partons. They weren't like real particles.

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Speaker 1: And in that case, were they called partons because they

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Speaker 1: were part of something? Yes, but that's okay, but that's

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Speaker 1: not true for particles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Partons are like part of something. But

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Speaker 2: it's a special word because they're like, it's not real,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just like math. It's not something that

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Speaker 2: you could actually see or interact with. It's not necessarily

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Speaker 2: part of the physical universe. That's how people felt about

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Speaker 2: it in the late nineteen sixties. They were like, this

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Speaker 2: is pretty compelling, but we don't know.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: We also had competing names for them. Murray Gelman, who

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Speaker 2: won the Nobel Prize for this stuff, called them quarks.

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Speaker 2: But there was another guy named Zwig who came up

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Speaker 2: with the same idea at about the same time, actually

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Speaker 2: a little earlier, but he wasn't as influential, and he

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Speaker 2: called them aces.

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Speaker 3: Oh which name do I like better?

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Speaker 2: I think aces is cool.

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Speaker 3: Actually, quarks is fun. Aces is cool.

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Speaker 2: Quarks comes from a James Joyce novel. Actually three quarks

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Speaker 2: for muster mark is a nonsensical phrase in that novel,

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Speaker 2: and that's what inspired Murray Gellman.

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Speaker 3: Oh cute, Okay, that's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: Was Gilman generally a very like literate dude or into literature.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was sort of like a renaissance

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Speaker 2: man widely read.

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Speaker 1: All right, so now we've got quarks instead of aces,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, you mentioned string theory and so

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Speaker 1: one I remember when we were talking to the string theorists,

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Speaker 1: a couple months ago, they were saying that they're not

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Speaker 1: sure that we'll ever be.

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Speaker 3: Able to test some of these ideas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but luckily, I believe we eventually got to the

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Speaker 1: point where we could test for some of these ideas

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Speaker 1: for these particles. So what was the jump that allowed

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Speaker 1: us to do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So so far we've only seen the combinations of

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Speaker 2: these still hypothetical quirks macroscopically in our detectors, and so

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Speaker 2: in order to probe them, people followed in the footsteps

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Speaker 2: of Rutherford. Rutherford around the turn of the century, he

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Speaker 2: tried to understand the structure of the atom before we

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Speaker 2: knew like, hey, there's a nucleus inside of it. He

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Speaker 2: tried to understand, like where is all the stuff in

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Speaker 2: the atom? And what he did was he shot stuff

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Speaker 2: at it, right, So he shot particles at a gold foil,

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Speaker 2: and he saw that sometimes it bounces back and sometimes

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Speaker 2: it goes through. And that led him to conclude that

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Speaker 2: matter is not evenly distributed in the gold foil. It's

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Speaker 2: concentrated in these tiny little spots, these nuclei. Right, So

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Speaker 2: we did something similar to understand the structure of the proton, right,

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Speaker 2: what's inside the proton.

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Speaker 1: And when we get back from the break, we'll find

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Speaker 1: out what we did. All right, So we just talked

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Speaker 1: about the experiments that Rutherford did to show that atoms

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Speaker 1: have of structure, like there's a nucleus. So now let's

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Speaker 1: talk about how we figured out the structure of the proton.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. We basically copied Rutherford's strategy, and we've been

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Speaker 2: doing that for decades, which is shoot stuff at it

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Speaker 2: and see what happens, and by the angles at which

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Speaker 2: stuff comes out, you can tell the structure of something.

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Speaker 2: So that works for gold. You can shoot particles of

402
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Speaker 2: gold and see the nucleus. How do you probe the proton? Well,

403
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Speaker 2: one thing you can do is smash protons together. That's

404
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Speaker 2: really messy because protons are big bags of goo. So

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Speaker 2: to make it a little bit cleaner, what people did

406
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Speaker 2: is they shot electrons at protons. Because electrons don't feel

407
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Speaker 2: the strong nuclear force, they only feel electromagnetism in the

408
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Speaker 2: weak force, and we think they're fundamental so they don't

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Speaker 2: break up into other stuff. They're cleaner. So it's really

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Speaker 2: like poking your finger out of proton the best way

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Speaker 2: that we can. And so these are experiments done at

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Speaker 2: Stanford in the late nineteen sixties. They're called deep inelastic

413
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Speaker 2: scattering if you want to learn more about them. Deep

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Speaker 2: because they're very high energy and they're probing the structure

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Speaker 2: of the proton. Inelastic because what happens is not that

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Speaker 2: the electron and the proton bounce off each other, but

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Speaker 2: that the electron shatters the proton and interacts with the

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Speaker 2: stuff inside of it. And physics we distinguish between elastic

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Speaker 2: collisions where things just bounce off, and inelastic where we've

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Speaker 2: changed the structure or broken something or things stick together.

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Speaker 2: Those are inelastic.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it should have been explosive and not explosive, But.

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Speaker 2: That's because you're thinking about diarrhea, right, that's a good

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Speaker 2: way to categorize diarrhea.

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Speaker 1: Not I am a biotics I think we have eight

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Speaker 1: different ways of characterizing feces or something like that.

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Speaker 2: The Bristol scale. I've read it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Oh yeah, you married a poop person.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I'm going to take that in the positive way.

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Speaker 2: It was intended.

431
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Speaker 3: Good. I adore Katrina. All right.

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Speaker 2: We had a biologist over for dinner the other night,

433
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Speaker 2: and she just moved down here from Stanford and she

434
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Speaker 2: had to bring all of her poop samples, so she

435
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Speaker 2: had to drive them down from Stanford to southern California.

436
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Speaker 2: One hundred and fifty pounds of poop in dry ice.

437
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Speaker 2: That's a lot about it. And I had to keep

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Speaker 2: the windows down because the dry ice of sublimates into

439
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 2: CO two, which will kill you if you keep the

440
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 2: car closed, into a literally crappy, flaming disaster.

441
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,479
Speaker 1: I once took a box of infected fish brains across

442
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 1: the Atlantic and had to declare it. And anyway, that

443
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: was an adventure. But I'll just go on so many adventures. Okay,

444
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: so inelastic it breaks it apart.

445
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 2: And so this is late nineteen sixties, and we probe

446
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 2: the structure of the proton with electrons, and we saw

447
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: three hard centers the way Rutherford saw like one heart

448
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 2: center for every item. We saw three heart centers. Like

449
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 2: we can tell by the angle at which the electron

450
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: comes back out whether it's really bounced off something hard

451
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: or mostly flown through, And we can tell by the

452
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 2: rate at which that happens that there are three hard centers.

453
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 2: So google deep and elastic scouting if you want to

454
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 2: learn more about that. But that was proof to us

455
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: that protons do have structure inside that there really are

456
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 2: physical things inside the proton. It's not fundamental.

457
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: And at this point where all of the physicists like,

458
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: all right, awesome, I'm totally convinced.

459
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 2: No, Unfortunately, people were still reluctant. They were like, yeah,

460
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess so, but like, are they real

461
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: physicists or conservative folks in the sense that they it's

462
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: hard for them to like accept a new idea. You

463
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: need a lot of data. And so at this point

464
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: we actually only had three ideas in mind for quarks,

465
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: the upcork and the down cork that make up the proton,

466
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: and then the strange cork, which make up these new

467
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: weird particles like the omegas and the chaons. So we

468
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: had three particles, and theorists were like, three is weird

469
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 2: because the upcork and the downcork make a very nice

470
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,199
Speaker 2: pair together. But then having the strange cork by itself,

471
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,199
Speaker 2: that's strange, and it makes all sorts of bizarre calculations

472
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: and the physics doesn't actually work. There's nothing there to

473
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: like balance the strange quirk. You predict all sorts of

474
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 2: weird behavior. So they said, well, you know, for things

475
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: to make more sense. There should be a fourth one,

476
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: there should be a partner. This is another great example

477
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: of like physicists following their mathematical intuition, They're like, the

478
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 2: universe should make sense, it should be orderly. This whole

479
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: puzzle would look more sensible, It would make more sense

480
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 2: to me, sort of mathematically and esthetically if it were complete.

481
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 2: So physicist said, we think that there's a fourth quark

482
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: out there, and they called it the charm quark. So

483
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: this is a purely theoretical prediction to solve some theoretical problems. Right,

484
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: we have three quarks up down strange, and they predicted

485
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: the existence of this charm quirk just to solve these

486
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: theoretical problems.

487
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: Is there an interesting story behind why they decided to

488
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: name it charm?

489
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: Still upset about that particle zoo thing.

490
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 2: The reason they named it charm is that they liked

491
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 2: it and it brought some new symmetry to the subnuclear world.

492
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: You know, there was this imbalance and it sort of

493
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: was there like balance, the strange quirk, and so you know,

494
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: some people call it the charm cork. Some people call

495
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: it the charmed cork. But yeah, sort of like a

496
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 2: lucky charm to make the universe make sense.

497
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 3: Like it would be charming. If the universe made sense.

498
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 2: It would be charming. Wasn't I find the universe pretty charming.

499
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: It's both strange and charming at the same time. All right,

500
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 2: we agree, So then the races on to look for

501
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: this new particle. Does the charm cork exist? And the

502
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: theorists predicted that if it does exist, you can't see

503
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: it individual, you can never see quirks by themselves, but

504
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: it would click together with itself in this way, so

505
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 2: that a charm cork and an anti charm cork would

506
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: come together to make a new particle, a particle we

507
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: could call charmonium.

508
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: Oh it sounds like right, charmmander. I feel like now

509
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: we're in the world of Pokemon. But all right, charmonium.

510
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you take a quark and you bind

511
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: it with its antiparticle, you call that onium. So charmonium

512
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: would be a charm cork and an anti charm quark.

513
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: And so this is one of the most dramatic and

514
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: colorful stories in the history of particle physics. There were

515
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: folks at MIT trying to discover this thing. At the

516
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: same time. People at Stanford trying to discover this looking

517
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: for charmonium, and they had very very different devices. So

518
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: Bert Richter at Stanford had a whole accelerator and he

519
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: could collide electrons and positrons together. When that happens, it annihilates,

520
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: it can turn into some new particle which can then decay.

521
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: And this is a very effective way to discover new

522
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: particles if you know already how much mass that new

523
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,479
Speaker 2: particle has, because then you can tune your beams, your

524
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: electron and positron beams to have just the right energy.

525
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: So you're making a bunch of these new particles and

526
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: then you can see them decay. So Bert Richter could

527
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: discover this thing in like a day if he knew

528
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: what the mass was. So they scanned the mass from

529
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: low values to high values and they didn't see anything,

530
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 2: so they were like, hmm, that's weird. At the same time,

531
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: across the country, Sam Ting was doing a very very

532
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 2: different experiment. He was shooting protons the target hoping that

533
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: charm quarks would come out and would make charmonium and

534
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: then would decay in a way that he could see it.

535
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: It was a much lower rate experiment, but it was

536
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 2: more broadly sensitive, like he didn't have to know in advance,

537
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: what is the mass of this thing. If it was there,

538
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: it would be made. But the data was sort of

539
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: peter out very gradually, and so he was desperate to

540
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 2: win this race. He knew he had a very effective technique,

541
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: but it was going to take a long time. And

542
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: while Bert Richter was very fast, but he needed to

543
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: know where to look. And so Sam King really wanted

544
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: to win this race and win the Nobel Prize, so

545
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: he needed as much beam time as possible. And so

546
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: there's a story about how he made sure he got

547
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: enough beam time. And it's not a story that I

548
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: know to be true, but it's a story that exists

549
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: in particle physics popular culture, and I think we should

550
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: find somebody to fact check this. But the version of

551
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: the story I heard from a particle physicist when I

552
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 2: was an undergrad was that the person Samking was sharing

553
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 2: beam time with kept having electronics difficulties, Like they would

554
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: come in they were supposed to be have and the

555
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: beam stuff wouldn't work. It's down, Oh Sam, you can

556
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: use the beam. How nice. And apparently they installed the

557
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: video camera and they discovered that someone was urineating on

558
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: the competing experiment at night what so that the electronics

559
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: wouldn't work, And then Ting and his experiment got more time.

560
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: Wait, okay, hold on, all right, so yeah, why why?

561
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: All right, you've explained why this is crazy?

562
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: But okay, so Nobel Prize that's why.

563
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: Okay, right, I guess if you needed any reason, Nobel

564
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: Prize is the reason.

565
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: But like, why pee on it?

566
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: Why not just like pour a little bit of your

567
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: water on it or something like, because p has a smell,

568
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: you're more likely to like get someone to realize something

569
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: wonky's going on, Like why not just pour a little

570
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: of your coffee or your wine on it?

571
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 3: This is weird.

572
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: It is weird. And that's the detail that makes me

573
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: suspect maybe this is an urban legend, you know, because

574
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: that's the detail that makes the story juicy. Yeah, it's

575
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: like a little bit gross and animalistic and whatever. And

576
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: I've spoken to other particle physicists about this, and some

577
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: of them suggest that this story might be made up

578
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: and it might reflect like anti Asian racism in particle physics,

579
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: because you know, particle physics for a long time was

580
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: Western Europeans and Americans and Chinese physicists have contributed great things,

581
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: made a lot of discoveries, but they haven't always been

582
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: as accepted, and so it could be that this is

583
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: just a product of that. And so, you know, I

584
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: tell you this story because it's out there, not because

585
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: I know that it's true. But that's not the end

586
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: of the drama. There's reported bad behavior on both sides

587
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: of the aisle.

588
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: All right, So what did the Richter lab do that

589
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 3: was poor?

590
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: So sam Ting starts to see evidence of this particle,

591
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: but it's still data is collecting very slowly. You know,

592
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: it's like you're waiting for the water to drain, and

593
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: you're seeing the land features that emerge, and the water's

594
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: just raining very very gradually. And the longer you wait,

595
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: the more precise your results are. But obviously you also

596
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: open the door to your competition. And so sam Ting

597
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: eventually decides, Okay, we have enough data, we're going to publish,

598
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: and he sets a press conference for like, you know,

599
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: a few days later, and then Bert Richter knows somehow

600
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: exactly where to look, tunes his collider to exactly the

601
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: mass of the particle. Sam Ting is about to announce,

602
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: runs data for one day, gets enough data to discover

603
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: this particle, writes the paper the same day, and has

604
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: a dueling press conference the same day as Sam Ting.

605
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: So you have Mit announcing we discovered this new particle.

606
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: We call it the J particle, and Stanford the same

607
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: day discovering the same particle, and they call it the

608
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: PSI particle.

609
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, so many questions.

610
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So is the idea here that the Richter lab

611
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: got some like whiff of the data coming out from

612
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: the Ting lab and that's how they figured out the mask.

613
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 3: How would that data have slipped out? I guess there's

614
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 3: lots of ways.

615
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, a phone call from somebody in the Ting lab,

616
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: you know, somebody disgruntled or like an ex partner of

617
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: somebody in that lab. I don't know, but you.

618
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: Know slips same particleships.

619
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: Share Nobel prizes exactly.

620
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: So that they did get to share the prize? Did

621
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: they both get it?

622
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: They share the prize and the particle shares those two names.

623
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: So even to this day we haven't decided like who

624
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: gets primacy. So we call it the J slash SI particle.

625
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: Oh, it should have been like Rick Ting or Ting

626
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: ser yes, why did Ting name it j and Richter

627
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: name it PSI?

628
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: Because the character in Chinese for Samting's name looks a

629
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: little bit like a j oh cool And if you

630
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: look in the detector when you create one of these

631
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: particles at Stanford, it looks a little bit like the

632
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: Greek letter SI.

633
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: All right, fine, good names descriptive. So that means we

634
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: have created charmonium.

635
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: We have created charmonium exactly. And this we're all announced

636
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: on November eleventh, nineteen seventy four. And this is what

637
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: particle physicists called the November Revolution because at that moment,

638
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: everybody who had any residual doubts about whether quarks are

639
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: real finally gave it up and they're like, Okay, this

640
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: is it. We're in a new era where quarks are real.

641
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,239
Speaker 2: Because we addicted the existence of this quark and what

642
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: it would do, and then people went out and found

643
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: this thing. It was all very very compelling. The quarks

644
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: are real. They are the underlying fabric of all this stuff.

645
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: Because we had predicted and discovered charmonium, a kind of quarkonium.

646
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: Do you all realize you were like fifty to sixty

647
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: years behind the first November Revolution when the Wymar Republic

648
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: came into existence.

649
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you very much. We have our own parallel stories. Okay,

650
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: all right, all right, not quite as dramatic, But like

651
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: Greg Lansburg, he's a physicist, I know at Brown, his

652
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: father was a particle physicist also, and Greg remembers being

653
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: a kid in the early seventies and his father getting

654
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: a phone call and his mom saying, like it's a

655
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: phone call about something called charmonium, and his father like

656
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 2: leaves naked and wet out of the shower to go

657
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: get this phone call because like this is a big day,

658
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: and that made an impression on Greg. Actually read this

659
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: story in Greg's thesis in the acknowledgment section, which is

660
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: super fun. I don't know if people realize, but like

661
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: every famous scientist out there wrote a peach and their

662
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: PhD has an acknowledgement section which is very personal and

663
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: written when they were young and like really fun to read.

664
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: So you should like go read like Paul Durak's acknowledgment section.

665
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's all out there, and it's always amazing

666
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: to hear that anyone ever reads any theses ever, because

667
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: in our field it's like, oh, yeah, just put it

668
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: in the thesis. It doesn't matter, No one reads those any.

669
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. So I tell you this whole story

670
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: to give you a flavor of like how we learned

671
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: what the universe it's made out of. But also in

672
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: the context of toponium, right, this is the beginning of corknia.

673
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: This is like, we can't see quarks directly because they're

674
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: never buy themselves, but we can see what quarks do together.

675
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: And corkonia is when you take a quark and you

676
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: combine it with the anti quark and you make a

677
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: special particle out of that. And so that's Harmonium is

678
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: really the beginning of this Corknia era.

679
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: So does does charmonium evolve into toponium, because I, like,

680
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: I want to lean into this Pokemon saying, is that

681
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: what it evolves into.

682
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: No, No, termonium is very unstable the case very quickly,

683
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: often into like an electron positron pair.

684
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: So it would be a mistake if you were like charmonium,

685
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: I choose you.

686
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, okay, exactly, But there are other quarks out there.

687
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: So at this point we have up down charm and

688
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: strange and people are like, oh, that's nice, that's cute.

689
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: I was about to say, oh, you physicists are cute,

690
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: but we just finished a story about you know, possibly

691
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: y'all peing on each other's experiments, so that's less cute.

692
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: But people were wondering, is there another set of these particles? Right?

693
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: Is there an additional pair? Because we had up down

694
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: charm strange and on the lepton side of the world,

695
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, with the electron, we had the muon those

696
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: kinds had a third column, we had the tau particles.

697
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: So people were like, well, if there's three kinds of leptons,

698
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: are there also three kinds of quarks? So they predicted

699
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: the existence of this pair, and one of them was

700
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: called the bottom particle. And so then the hunt was

701
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: on in the seventies for what we call bottomonium. Right,

702
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: a bottom anti bottom pair come together to make a

703
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: particle we now call the upsilon. And so this was

704
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: discovered at Formulab in nineteen seventy seven. And people are like, oh, wow,

705
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: so bottoms are real.

706
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: As a mom, I can tell you I always knew

707
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,959
Speaker 3: bottoms were real. But in the.

708
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: Outline another poop joke. Wow impressed.

709
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep. Yeah, well, I mean that's a Heine joke.

710
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: But anyway, but so the outline says botomium, and you

711
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: said button. You added some uh syllables.

712
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 3: What is it? Let's how is the longest we could

713
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: make it? Bottomoninium.

714
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 2: I think it should be bottomonium, right, because the particle

715
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: is a bottom particle. And then you add onium, so.

716
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 3: Bottomonium, bottomium, bottomium, got it? Bottomonium. That's pretty cute.

717
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: And then there's a whole spectrum of particles that include

718
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: the B quark. They're called B masons where you can

719
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: combine bees with ups, or bees with downs, or bees

720
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: with strange, all sorts of particles you can make if

721
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: you have the B particle. And now we've seen all

722
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: those particles and we study the wazoo out of them.

723
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: It's a whole experiment. It's certain called LHCb, which exists

724
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: just to study the bottom quark and all the weird

725
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: stuff it does with other particles.

726
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: All right, so let's take a break, and when we

727
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: get back, let's focus on top quarks and answer our question.

728
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 3: What the heck is topponium? All right, we're back, and

729
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 3: it's the moment you've all been waiting for.

730
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: Daniel is going to lead up to his explanation of

731
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: what is toponium, right.

732
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: And so far we've been sending in the context. Right,

733
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: we've been explaining what quarkonium is, what charmonium was, what

734
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 2: bottomonium is. So now we can say what toponium would

735
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: be if it exists. Toponium, if it exists, should be

736
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: a bound state of top quarks and anti top quarks.

737
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: Because charm an anti charm makeup particle, bottom and anti

738
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: bottom makeup particle, up an anti up makeup particle. Why

739
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: can't you make a particle with top and anti top

740
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: and that.

741
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: Would be toponium based on the naming scheme, Yeah, that.

742
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: Would be toponium. But the top cork is different from

743
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: all the other particles. It wasn't discovered until in the

744
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: mid nineties ninety five because it's super dup or massive, Like,

745
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: the quarks are all very very light, except for the

746
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: bottom cork, which has five times the mass of the proton,

747
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: which is like, that's very heavy for a cork. But

748
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: the top cork is much more massive than the bottom.

749
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: It has one hundred and seventy five proton masses, so

750
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: like an individual top cork has more mass than like

751
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 2: the nucleus of a gold atom. And this is why

752
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: it took us twenty years to find the top quark

753
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: after the bottom cork was discovered.

754
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: Wait, if the top quark is so much bigger, why

755
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: was it so hard to find?

756
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: Because it takes much more energy to make it. Like

757
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 2: the bottom cork, you can make it a pretty low

758
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: energy collider. You only need like protons accelerated a little bit.

759
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: But to make the top quark you got to really

760
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: zoom those protons together to have enough energy to make

761
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: two top quarks, because you can never just make one.

762
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 2: You got to make a top and an anti top.

763
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: So it's a huge amount of energy. There's a whole

764
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: set of colliders built under the assumption that the top

765
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 2: quark was going to be like maybe a little heavier

766
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: than the bottom, and then they didn't find anything. So

767
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: it wasn't until the firm lab Tevatron in the late

768
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: nineties that we made top quarks and saw them. And

769
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: that's actually what my PhD thesis was about, seeing the

770
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 2: top quark and measuring its properties back when we'd only

771
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 2: ever made a few of them.

772
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: Well, oh wait, were you the first one to describe

773
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 1: the top quark or like after it was seen.

774
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: I was not the first one. No, but I remember

775
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: the day I was an undergrad when my particle physics

776
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: professor came and said, Hey, today's a big day. We're

777
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 2: announcing the discovery of the top quark. Because it took

778
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: twenty years to find this thing, it was really exciting

779
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: when people find I mean, we knew it had to

780
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: be there to complete the symmetry, but it took a

781
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 2: long time, so it was really exciting. But the top

782
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: quarks mass doesn't just mean it takes a lot of

783
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: energy to make, also means that it's really really really unstable.

784
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: Like the top quark decays really really quickly, Like when

785
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: you created it only lasts from like ten to the

786
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: minus twenty three seconds, Like it basically almost instantly decays

787
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: into a bottom cork and a w and other stuff.

788
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: So it only briefly exists.

789
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 1: That is pretty incredible that something that exists for such

790
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: a short amount of time we're able to measure and

791
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: capture at all.

792
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we've never seen a top quirk directly.

793
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: We've only seen what it turns into an indirect evidence

794
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: for its existence. Right, It's like we've seen the hair

795
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: and the footprints of Bigfoot, we never actually captured one

796
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: and like hung out with it.

797
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 3: Bad example, Daniel, Bigfoot doesn't exist. Do top quarks exist?

798
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: You hope? So?

799
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: Well, we've see in its hair and footprints, so we

800
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: think that it exists. We're pretty confident. And so other

801
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: quarks last much longer, like a bottom cork will last

802
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: much longer, long enough to hang out, find an and

803
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: on a bottom cork and form a new particle bottomonium.

804
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: Top quarks don't do that. Top quarks decay almost instantly,

805
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: so there's really almost no time for it to form toponium. Right,

806
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: Even if you have a top quark and anti top

807
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: quark and they're near each other, it takes time for

808
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: things to like find each other settle down into a

809
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: bound state. It's like if you have a proton and

810
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: an electron there, it takes them a while to figure

811
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: out that they're a match and to settle into hydrogen.

812
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: Like in our universe, it took hundreds of thousands of

813
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: years for things to cool down and settle into neutral hydrogen.

814
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: So for a long time, the lore was toponium is

815
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: impossible because top quarks don't last long enough. They explode

816
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 2: into other particles before they formed toponium, so we were

817
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 2: stuck at bottomonium. That was the concept people had until

818
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: about last year.

819
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: WHOA, okay, wait, so you told us that you can't

820
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: see top quarks. Happened too fast, You can't see what

821
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: are they called negative.

822
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: Top quarks, anti top quarks.

823
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 3: Anti thank you anti top quarks.

824
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: Have we actually seen toponium or is this another hair

825
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: and footprints situation?

826
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: So have we actually seen topony and we've seen a

827
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 2: sort of maybe version of it. We haven't seen top

828
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: quarks and anti top quarks like settle down into a

829
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 2: new stable particle that compares to like the jape psi

830
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: or the oopsilon, these other bound states of quarks. But

831
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: people had this idea last year that you know, maybe

832
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 2: top quarks don't have time to settle into some new state,

833
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: but maybe they can talk to each other. Maybe they

834
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: like exchange some gluons and influence each other. Maybe there's

835
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 2: some like cross talk between the top and the anti

836
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 2: top after they're made and before they decay, So maybe

837
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: they don't have time to fully settle into like a

838
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: cozy homie existence together, but they at least, you know,

839
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: exchange a few dms. That was the idea, and so

840
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: we looked for evidence of this at the Large Hadron Collider.

841
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: Where we did is we said, well, what would top

842
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: quarks look like if they didn't exchange any information? And

843
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: then what would they look like if they did exchange

844
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: some information? And it turns out if they talk to

845
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: each other even a little bit, then it makes their

846
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 2: spins point in different directions. All these particles have fundamental spins,

847
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: and it's not something we understand deeply. It's just like

848
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: an arrow we put on these particles to represent some

849
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: kind of angular momentum they carry. But if they talk

850
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: to each other, then their spins can change a little bit.

851
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: And spin is something we can measure of a top quark.

852
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: We don't see the top directly, but we see what

853
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: it decays into and so from that we can deduce

854
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: what the spin was from, like the angles of the

855
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: stuff that flies out of the top quark. So you

856
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 2: measure the spin of one top quark and you measure

857
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: the spin of the anti top quark, and then you

858
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 2: ask are those spins more likely to come from top

859
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 2: quarks that did talk to each other, or top quarks

860
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: that didn't talk to each other.

861
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna note I didn't like stuff my anger

862
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: down far enough because I'm still keeping track of every

863
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: time you're like, well, we don't really understand what this

864
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: means and we haven't actually seen this other thing, but

865
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: go ahead, keep pooping on biologists. But anyway, I'm glad

866
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: you guys maybe saw this, who knows, but you don't

867
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: understand it.

868
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: So we looked at all the data. We studied a

869
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: huge number of top quarks, and it looks like they

870
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: do talk to each other. There's evidence there that the

871
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: top quarks do interact and it changes the direction of

872
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: their spin as they decay. And so people called this

873
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: toponium and sort of top onium with an asterisk, because

874
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: again it's not like a stable particle in the same

875
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 2: way that other quark onia are, but it is an interaction.

876
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: And so they gave it a name atas sub t

877
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: like a top quark kind of inspired particle. And it

878
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: made a big splash, and because you know, people were

879
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: excited about the work they did, they fluffed it up

880
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: in the popular literature, and so in a lot of

881
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: popular science articles. You see, it's like as if we

882
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: have discovered this new stable form of matter or this

883
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: new way for top quarks to come together to make

884
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: a particle. That didn't happen. What we did see is

885
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: top quarks for the first time interacting with each other

886
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: before they were decaying, which is still a big deal.

887
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 5: Yeah.

888
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: So if I'm trying to put this big deal in context,

889
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: so we have a better understanding of how our universe

890
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: works now. But if we needed such a fancy collider

891
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: to make it happen, how often is this happening. Let's

892
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: first talk about our planet and then maybe like elsewhere

893
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: in the Solar System, where would you expect to see

894
00:42:59,480 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: it happening?

895
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. You know, top quarks are probably created

896
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,959
Speaker 2: naturally all the time in cosmic rays. We talked about

897
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: how we build particle accelerators because we didn't want to

898
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: have to rely on cosmic rays. But it's not because

899
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: cosmic grays don't have enough energy. Cosmic rays are hugely,

900
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: massively energetic. They're much more energetic than our particle colliders.

901
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 2: They're just harder to control and the really high energy

902
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: particles are rarer, so colliders aren't good at controlled experiments,

903
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: But if you want to go really high energy, cosmic

904
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: rays are the way to go. So all the time,

905
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 2: top quarks are made in the atmosphere when protons smash

906
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: into other particles, way way way above the clouds. But

907
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: you know they last are ten of them minus twenty

908
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: three seconds, and probably they're creating impairs, and they talk

909
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: to each other a little bit before they decay. Does

910
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: this make any difference in the world If we lived

911
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: in a universe where top quarks didn't talk to each

912
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: other before they decayed, would ice cream taste worse? You know,

913
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: would biologists be less awesome? No, biologists would still be

914
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: awesome and ice cream would still be delicious. I think

915
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: it's a very very subtle effect.

916
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 3: Thank you, Daniel, I've forgiven you. The anger has gone.

917
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: Away, all right? That was my goal, yes, but you

918
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: know it satisfies our curiosity. We want to understand all

919
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: the details of how these fields come together, how do

920
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: they interact. Are there any surprises because we expected to

921
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 2: see this, and if we hadn't, we would have been surprised.

922
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 2: We wouldn't say, Hm, something's going on that we don't

923
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: understand and dug into it more maybe that would have

924
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: been evidence that there's some other field preventing tops from

925
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: talking to each other, or some other particle out there

926
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: that's doing something. Anytime you see something unexpected, it's a

927
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 2: sign that there's something new to learn about the universe,

928
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: a thread to unravel. So this is just another example

929
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: of scientists like being clever and trying to find ways

930
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: to ask the universe a question. We can't ask directly.

931
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: We can't see quirks directly, so we had to be

932
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: indirect and understand how they click together to make particles.

933
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: We can't see top quarks directly, so we had to

934
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: see how they decay and in fur their existence. And

935
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: so now we're trying to figure out, like how top

936
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 2: quarks talk to each other by looking at the patterns

937
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: of those decays. It's all very subtle stuff, but to me,

938
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: it's a testament of like the cleverness of experimentalists. You know,

939
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: you have a question, you want an answer to it.

940
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: You got to figure out a way to force the

941
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: universe to share that data with you, and you know

942
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 2: that's the joy of science. It's like outsmarting the universe,

943
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: forcing it to answer your questions.

944
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: There's such a beauty in cleverly designed experiments and are

945
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: you still working on toponium?

946
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: So I don't personally work on toponium, but there's still

947
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: people definitely studying this and digging deeper into it, and

948
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: so you expect to hear more about it in the

949
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: coming years. But I think I want to underscore the

950
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: point that you just made that there really is beauty

951
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: and creativity in experiments. I think people often feel like

952
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 2: theoretical physics is where the thinking is and experimental physics

953
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: is like where the engineering is, like yeah, build a thing,

954
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: get it to work. But also the creativity in experimental physics, right,

955
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 2: you need to be creative figure out like, hey, how

956
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: do we see this thing, how do we force the

957
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: universe to reveal this how do we trick it, how

958
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: we corner it so that we learn the answer to

959
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: our question. A lot of the great discovery and experimental

960
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: science come from somebody being really clever about finding a

961
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: new way to answer a question people have long had.

962
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: I love hearing stories about how science is done and

963
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 1: the culture of science and seeing how human nature layers

964
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: upon it.

965
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: You know, we.

966
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: Heard a story about one person maybe stealing someone else's

967
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: data or a piece of their data to make their discovery.

968
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: Someone else may be peeing on someone's experiment. And here

969
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: it sounds like there's even within the field of physics,

970
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 1: a hierarchy for who's the smartest, who's the most clever,

971
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: whose field is doing the best stuff.

972
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: And I think it would be very nice if we

973
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: could remove some of that.

974
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, it is. It's a human endeavor,

975
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: and we do do beautiful things.

976
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: It is, absolutely yeah. And there's jealousy and this backsebbing,

977
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: and there's people spreading terrible stories about the other folks,

978
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: you know, these anti Stanford stories and anti Mit stories

979
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 2: and all of that stuff. And you know, you can't

980
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: remove that from science because science is by the people

981
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: of the people. It's for the people, right if we

982
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: made it sterile and it was all done by ais

983
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: a lot less.

984
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: Fun yep, it is a human endeavor with all of

985
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: our foibles sort of layered in.

986
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thanks for taking this journey with us

987
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: on the human discovery of quarks and the latest research

988
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: on how top quarks talk to each other just before

989
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: they perish. And thanks Kelly for pushing down your anger

990
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 2: by shade at biologists.

991
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: My anger has left me because you said something nice

992
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: about biologists, and at the end of the day we're

993
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: both friends and it's okay.

994
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: All right. Thanks everybody. This podcast serves to educate, and

995
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: it's a cheap form of.

996
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 3: Therapy, the cheapest form there is. Thanks everyone.

997
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

998
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,680
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999
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,600
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1000
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: Extraordinary Universe.

1001
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,439
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1002
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:00,480
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1003
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,920
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1004
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,719
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1005
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,880
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1006
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,120
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1007
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1008
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1009
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,000
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1010
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,759
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