1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to Ruthie's Table four in Partnership with Montclair. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Across the garden from where a Surgeon General Viveq Muthee 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: and I are sitting, people are having Sunday lunch in 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: the River cafe. Walking into the room, you hear the 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: rise and fall of conversation and laughter, friends and families 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: connecting over food. At age thirty seven, Viveague was appointed 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: as the youngest Surgeon General of the United States by 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: President Obama and is now serving a second term with 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: President Biden. During COVID in his gap between terms as 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: surgeon General, he might have researched illnesses, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: but instead he chose what he saw as another epidemic 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: of our time, loneliness. His book Together, The Healing Power 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lonely World, tackles loneliness 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: as a condition seriously detrimental to the health of millions 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: of people. He is a surgeon general who sees love 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: as a foundation of policy making. How rare to hear 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: the word love as a solution to a diagnosis. He 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: says food is an antidote to loneliness, believing loneliness is 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: like hunger, and like thirst, I am privileged today to 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: talk with and listen to the Surgeon General and to 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: hear how as a doctor, a father, a husband, a child, 22 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: and now my friend. Food is a connection and food 23 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:36,199 Speaker 1: is love. 24 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: I mean, it is. 25 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: Also why you're here, Snith, are you doing a conference? 26 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: So it is a global concern. 27 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: Now, and it's actually why I find that this work 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: around food to be so powerful, because I think that 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 3: people like you, Ruthie, who have been so deeply immersed 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: in not just the preparation of food, but food is 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: a cultural force. I think have long recognized that food 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 3: has a power to bring us together, to put us 33 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 3: in a place of ease where we can be more 34 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 3: open and talk to one another, which is I think 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: people like breaking bread with one another, and conversation happens 36 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 3: differently over food than it does in a conference room. 37 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 3: But I think that food is also, at its best, 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: you know, a force for love. And I feel that fundamentally, 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 3: the question that's before us in society, not just in 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 3: the US, but all over the world is do we 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 3: want to be a society that's driven by fear and 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 3: with all that comes with that anger, anxiety, insecurity, or 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 3: do we want to be a society that's fueled by 44 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 3: love and by all that comes with that, compassion and 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 3: kindness and generosity and looking out for one another. And 46 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 3: so that's ultimately what I hope that we can build 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 3: together as a world fueled empowered by love. And I 48 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 3: think that's a world where we can build extraordinary things, 49 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: where we can bring benefits to everyone, where we can 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: overcome adversity no matter or what comes, and where we 51 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: feel a sense of optimism and hope. It worries me 52 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: greatly that as I travel that so many people feel 53 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 3: pessimistic and anxious. But I also think that what gives 54 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 3: us hope during hard trip is our connection to one another. 55 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: And so that's what I want us to rebuild. You know, 56 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: in our lives. We have it within us. I think 57 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: this is actually our true nature. It's a question of 58 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 3: giving voice to it and coming together around that kind 59 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 3: of society, and I think we can build it. 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: We will, Yeah, we will, thank you. So what we 61 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: like to do is to read a recipe. And you 62 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: chose the recipe of pumpkin soup. Yes, so would you 63 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: like to read that recipe? 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: And you can read it any way you like. 65 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: Sure, So this is a recipe for pumpkin soup. And 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 3: I chose pumpkin soup in part because I having grown 67 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: up in Miami, Florida, where it's very warm, and then 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: having subsequently moved to very cold weather places, I was 69 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: always craving warmth, and soup was the easiest way for 70 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: me to find them. And I love pumpkins part because 71 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 3: I love Halloween. So pumpkin soup three tablespoons of extra 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 3: virgin olive oil, fifty grams of butter, two cloves sliced garlic, 73 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: twenty sage leaves, a two kilogram pumpkin, peeled, seated, cut 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: into large cubes, one potato, peeled and cubed, one red chili, 75 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 3: one liter of chicken stock, two tablespoons of grated parmesan, 76 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: and one tablespoon of crim fresh. Heat the olive oil 77 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: and butter, Add garlic and sage, and fry for five minutes. 78 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: Add the pumpkin and potato. Fry for one minute before 79 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: adding chili. Seasoning and season well with salt and pepper. 80 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 3: Poor enough stock to cover the pumpkin and bring to 81 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: a boil. Reduce the heat and simmer for twenty minutes 82 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 3: until the pumpkin is tender. Strain half of the stock 83 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: from the pumpkin into a bowl and set aside. Pouring 84 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: what is left into a food processor pulse until the 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 3: mixture is very thick. Return the mixture to the pan 86 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: and add strained stock and stir. Serve with parmesan and 87 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 3: a drizzle of olive oil and crumbfresh on top. 88 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: Is something you could imagine eating and cutting. 89 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 3: Yes, in fact, I found myself getting hungry even though 90 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: I had a whole meal after reading this recipe. 91 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 4: This is wonderful. 92 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, So if we begin at the beginning, this is 93 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: going to be a long, less conversation about life and 94 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: work and loneliness and happiness food. Tell me about your 95 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: family were Are they from India? Came to London to England. 96 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, my family's originally from India. My mother is from Bangalore, 97 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 3: a city in the south of India, and my father 98 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: is from a small farming village about two hours outside 99 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: of Bangalore, and they grew up in fairly modest households. 100 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: My mother's family was, you know, middle class. My father, though, 101 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: came from a poor farming community and his family did 102 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 3: not have much at all in the way of resources. 103 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 4: Growing up. After they got married. 104 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: They moved to England and they lived here for seven years, 105 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: in London for some part of that time, and then 106 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 3: in other parts. They lived in Leeds, they lived in 107 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 3: up North, in Huddersfield, which is actually where I was 108 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: born and where my sister was born. They lived in Wales, Scotland, 109 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: and then ultimately moved to Canada and then eventually to 110 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 3: the US. 111 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: Did they bring the food of India with them? They did. 112 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 3: They've never They've never left the cuisine they grew up 113 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: with behind, and they not only cooked and sought out 114 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: that cuisine when they were in England, but even growing up. 115 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: The aromas that I remember as a child are of 116 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 3: the Indian food that my parents looked at home. 117 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: What was it like? Do you remember they? 118 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: You know, they had very different styles of cooking. So 119 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: my mother was a primary cook, but my father cooked 120 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: often and he brought great joy to cooking. So my 121 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: mother her The hallmark of her food were it was 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: simple but rich flavors. So she would only cook with 123 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: a few ingredients, but she would somehow make all of 124 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 3: them sing and people from the community would often come 125 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: and ask her, how did you make that? How did 126 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 3: I have the list of ingredients, but somehow I can't 127 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: get quite the same flavor out of it. And she 128 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: would always say to me that one of her secrets 129 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: was that was her intention when she cooked. She said 130 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: she would think of the love that she wanted the 131 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: food to represent, and the love she wanted to give 132 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: to the person who enjoyed the food, and she would 133 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 3: bring that into her mind and pour it into the food. 134 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: One of her ingredients. 135 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 4: Yes, love is one of her ingredients. 136 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: And my father was an incredibly creative cook. If my 137 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: mother's a hallmark was simplicity, his was complexity. He had 138 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: often many ingredients. And if you ask my father, how 139 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 3: did you make that dish because it was so good, 140 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: he'll have a hard time telling you because he doesn't 141 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: quite remember the proportions. And this he doesn't measure. He 142 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: just adds based on his instinct. But he so he's 143 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: a creative cook, but an equally an equally talented one. 144 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: But did he cook on special occasions or did he 145 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: just cook every day? Did he did he? 146 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: When we were growing up, he would cook on special 147 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 3: occasions because he was he was working office. He was 148 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 3: a doctor, and he initially worked in emergency rooms and 149 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: in hospitals, then eventually set up his own clinic, you know, 150 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: in Miami in nineteen eighty five, which he continues to 151 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: work in until this day now alongside my sister who's 152 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 3: also a primary. 153 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: Doctors in the family more than three three of us, 154 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: yet the are just three of us in the nuclear family. 155 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: So we say my mother has is essentially close to 156 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 3: a doctor herself because she she actually ran the medical 157 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: practice that my father worked and she managed the whole operation, 158 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: and because there was a small shop, it was just 159 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: the two of them seeing patients. So a lot of 160 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 3: times the patients would come and talk to her about 161 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 3: what they were going through, and over time she came 162 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: to sort of recognize various symptoms and be able to 163 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: make diagnoses on the side. So it was very interesting. 164 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 4: But yeah, and. 165 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: When you went to Miami, did you live within a 166 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: very Indian community or was it? 167 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 3: When we first got there, we didn't know many people 168 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: who were Indian. The Indian community was still small, and 169 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: over time is more as a Indian community grew, that 170 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 3: became an important part of our experience. But initially it 171 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: wasn't the case. And I think that's part of the 172 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: reason why. I You know, I felt quite different as 173 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: a young person growing up. I didn't know a lot 174 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 3: of people in those early years who ate the food 175 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 3: that we ate, or had the customs that we had, 176 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: or had names that sounded like ours, and I often 177 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 3: felt like an outsider. And it's interesting. It's funny to 178 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 3: know how these early experiences stick with you. And I 179 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: still remember that feeling of what it felt like to 180 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: be an outsider and do not feel like you belong. 181 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 3: And it's why I have found that in years since, 182 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 3: I'm really sensitive to when other people feel like they're 183 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: outsiders because I felt that and it doesn't feel good. 184 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: So did your sister experience that as well? 185 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 4: She did? Yeah, she did? 186 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: Your parents and your parents? Did your grandparents come with 187 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: you at all? 188 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: Did they? 189 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 4: I wish they had? They did not. 190 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 3: They stayed in India, and I missed them a lot 191 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 3: because when we were young, during holidays, during Christmas and Thanksgiving, 192 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 3: people would go away and spend time with extended family. 193 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 4: They would come back with these wonderful. 194 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 3: Stories about their grandparents and about how Grandma gave them this, 195 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: their Grandpa took them here, And I often wish that 196 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: our grandparents were closer, but they came to visit a 197 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 3: few times when we were younger, and I really treasured 198 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: those times. Did they cook, yes, well, my grandmother would cook, 199 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 3: my mother's mother and my father's mother had unfortunately passed 200 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 3: away when he was young, when he was ten, but 201 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 3: his father would actually cook his well because he had 202 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: been used to cooking for himself. And they all had 203 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: their own styles, but the one thing that was common 204 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: among all of them is there was a lot of 205 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 3: joy when they were in the kitchen. They were cooking 206 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: from a place of happiness. They knew they were going 207 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 3: to be bringing happiness to people with the food. It 208 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 3: wasn't functional, it wasn't ah. 209 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: Got to be on the table if you get the 210 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 2: food out. 211 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 4: That's right, it was. There's some real joy. 212 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: Do you think that is specific to Indian cooking, that 213 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: is more of a group activity or good question. 214 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 3: I think other cuisines, other cultures have that as well. 215 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 3: But I do worry that in modern living that we've 216 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 3: gotten away from a lot of that, and that food 217 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 3: preparation has become more functional than nurturing and therapeutic, and 218 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 3: that old community style of sitting together and both making 219 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: the food and consuming the food that I think there's 220 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: I think some of that got lost, perhaps just as 221 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 3: life structures change and in the interests of efficiency, or 222 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 3: we can just get food delivered, or we can pop 223 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 3: something in the microwave, and it does feel like it 224 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: saves time. But I think perhaps what may not have 225 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 3: been as as deeply appreciated was how much was lost 226 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 3: in terms of the community that's built. The relaxation also 227 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 3: that comes when you're working with your hands and creating 228 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 3: something beautiful in the form of food that others will enjoy. 229 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: People often say to me, how can you cook for 230 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty people and in the restaurant when 231 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: it's hard to give a dinner party at home for 232 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: twelve people, I go, I can't do a dinner party 233 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: for twelve people at home. It's so much easier doing 234 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: it in a restaurant because you're collaborating, you know, you 235 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: have you're cooking. It is that thing of cooking with 236 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: other people, sharing a conversation, tasting each other's food, talking 237 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: about what you're going to do, and that community. 238 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: Of working in a restaurant is so nice. 239 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: You know. I do, of course cook for twelve people 240 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: at home, but it can be very solitary just being 241 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: in the kitchen by yourself. 242 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: It can be yeah, And that's where I think doing 243 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 3: it together, whether it's as family as friends, really makes 244 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: a difference. Some of my best memories growing up or 245 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: actually of all of us, my sister and I along 246 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: with my both my parents actually cooking together. So when 247 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 3: we would have guests over, that was it was stressful 248 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 3: at times because we're going to get everything ready for 249 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 3: the guests in time, et cetera. And but the fun 250 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 3: part was that we made things together. So one of 251 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 3: my jobs was to make the list of items that 252 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: we were going to cook that. 253 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 2: Day for shops going to shop or shop. 254 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 3: But actually for cooking also like the dishes that we 255 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: were going to make. And then I would be, you know, 256 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 3: a sous cheft for my mom and then she would 257 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: help put things together. I would chop, I would you know, 258 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 3: mix things together. I would watch things on the stove 259 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 3: and roast vegetables or other ingredients and and when they 260 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: were done, it was my job to check it off 261 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: in the list. And I had to ultimately make sure 262 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 3: that everything was checked off before the guests came. 263 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: So preparation for sure life maybe even to. 264 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 3: This day when I go home if we're going to 265 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 3: have people over, and my mother still still turn to 266 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 3: me and say, make the list, make the list. 267 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 4: So I make the list. 268 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: It's interesting what you said also about your grandparents, because 269 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: people that we've talked to on the podcast, very often, 270 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: if especially they've come from another country, from Ghana to London, 271 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: or from China to London, from wherever they've traveled, they 272 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: very often talk about their grandparents almost more than their parents, 273 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: because sometimes the mother adapts, you know, the mother adapts 274 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: her cooking. The child only sometimes wants to eat the 275 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: food of the culture he's moved to, but the grandmother 276 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: clings to more to what you know, or the grandfather, 277 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: i should say, from their country. Did your mother adapt 278 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: or did she only cook Indian food? Did she ever 279 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: make you hamburgers or meatballs in spaghetti. 280 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: Or was all the food of your home the food 281 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: of India? 282 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, my mother still to this day primarily 283 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: cooks Indian food, like and almost exclusively, I would say, 284 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 3: so that is what we ate growing up. My father, 285 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: on the other hand, has he still makes a lot 286 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: of traditionally Indian food, but he does a lot of 287 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 3: creative fusion food. So he has an Indian version of 288 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: spaghetti that he. 289 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 4: Makes, and of other pastas well. 290 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 3: I don't know what he calls doesn't actually have a name, 291 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 3: but when you eat it, you taste all of these 292 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 3: flavorful Indian spices. And then he does other interesting things too, 293 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 3: like he'll take jackfruit, which is I'm not sure if 294 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 3: you've had it or not, but it's a fruit that 295 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: grows in the tropics. When it's ripe, it's yellow and 296 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: rubbery and very sweet. But in its raw form it 297 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 3: can actually be used for savory dishes and it's quite tender. 298 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 3: It can actually mimic a steak. So he'll chop up, 299 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: you know, raw jackfruit, and then he'll drop it into 300 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: the pasta, and so it almost tastes like you're eating 301 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: meat in the pasta, but it's all vegetables. So he'll 302 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: do all of these crazy creative things. 303 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, both of them sound like great cooks. 304 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 4: They are. 305 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: How did they work all day. 306 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: And then come home and did you sit with your 307 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: sister every night around the table and your parents after 308 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: a long day at school. 309 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 4: We did. 310 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 3: And the reason we did that was actually because my 311 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: parents were insistent and that we always have dinner together 312 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: every night. Sometimes my sister and I as kids growing up, 313 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: we'd get annoyed, you know, we'd say, well, you know, 314 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 3: our friends get to like sit in front of the 315 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 3: TV during dinnertime, why can we do that? Or you know, 316 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 3: why don't you guys have dinner. We're busy doing something, 317 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: you know, we're reading this book. Well, we'll have dinner later. 318 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: But they were always insistent that we have to eat together, 319 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 3: so much so that when I was in high school, 320 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 3: Ruthie and when we you know, sometimes we had a 321 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: lot of homework and I was in the middle of 322 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 3: like writing an essay and I didn't want to stop 323 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: exactly when dinner time was, and they would just they 324 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: would just wait for us. And I still feel guilty, 325 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: and so I'm embarrassed to say this, but like I 326 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: still remember many nights in high school where I was 327 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: like stressed about an exam and I was late studying 328 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: and I don't feel could quite break and they would 329 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 3: stay up and just wait until and we would eat 330 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: at nine or nine thirty or ten o'clock at night, 331 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 3: but they would just wait because they wanted to have 332 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: dinner together. Still can't believe I made them wait that long, 333 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 3: so I probably didn't mind. 334 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: I think I can imagine waiting for my children to finish. 335 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: I think, you know, they probably it was your sister 336 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: as well, would. 337 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 3: You, yeah, study, Yeah, And we were in the same 338 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 3: grade growing up, so we thankfully had a lot of 339 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: the same assignments and everything. 340 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 4: So, but yeah, did. 341 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: You go to friends homes for dinner? Did you go 342 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: to other people's houses for dinner? 343 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 3: We did, Yes, we went to other people's homes, and 344 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 3: and that was always a real source of joy because 345 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: it was it was always a family affair, and it 346 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 3: was always always very informal. So it wasn't that there 347 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: was a big long table and everyone would sit together 348 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: around that table. Usually there was food that was made. 349 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 3: People would often bring food, almost public style. All the 350 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 3: dishes would be laid out on a table and everyone 351 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: would just noisily, messily grabl plate, you know, put food 352 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 3: on it, and then go to various parts of the 353 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 3: house in small groups and this and that. And as 354 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 3: kids we were, you know, we would just all hang 355 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 3: out in a room together and eat and play and 356 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: it was fun. I really enjoyed it. It was community, 357 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 3: it was food, It was entertainment. 358 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: Very evocative, very beautiful description of this life at home. 359 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: Did that it was at a big break then when 360 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: you went off to university, when you went to Harvard, 361 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 1: was a shock to the system that suddenly you were 362 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: away from that. 363 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 4: It was a shock. 364 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 3: It was actually extremely hard for me, and I struggled 365 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 3: a lot, especially during my first semester away. I felt 366 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 3: really lonely. I felt just really disconnected, and being a shy, 367 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: introverted kid, I had a hard time just making friends 368 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: off the bat, you know. It took me a while 369 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: to get to know people, and so that was it 370 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 3: was very hard. I remember coming home at the for 371 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 3: the first time after enrolling in college during Christmas break, 372 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 3: and I had my suitcase. 373 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 4: In my hand. 374 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: The door opened, I stepped in, I put my bags down, 375 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: looked up at the ceiling of the house in which 376 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 3: I had grown up, took a deep breath, and I 377 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 3: said to my father, I feel like I've just been 378 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: released from prison. And I had almost forgotten that I 379 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 3: had said that until a few years ago. He reminded me, 380 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: and if I brought back this flood of emotions of 381 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: what it had felt like to be just separated from 382 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 3: this love that had nurtured me for so long. And 383 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: things got a bit better after that, as I was 384 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 3: able to make friends and build a community. But some 385 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 3: years after, when I was in my residency training in 386 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 3: my first year, when I was working you know, abobbly 387 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: eighty ninety hundred hours a week, but seeing and working 388 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 3: with patients who were going through some of the most 389 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: difficult moments of their life, including people who are my age, 390 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 3: you know at that time, young people in their twenties 391 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: who were dealing with metasatic cancer and only had a 392 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 3: few months to live. I started reflecting then and thought 393 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 3: to myself, I never want to lose my connection to 394 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 3: my family. I want to make sure that every moment 395 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 3: that I have that I'm spending it with family and friends, 396 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 3: you know, whether that's vacation time, weekend time. I was like, 397 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: I want to make that a priority. So after that, 398 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 3: I started going home much more often to see my 399 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: parents and to spend time with them, even if it 400 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: was just for a weekend. You know, it was worth 401 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 3: it because I always remember those patients I cared for, 402 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 3: are those young patients, and this reminds me that we 403 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 3: never we all don't know how much time we have, 404 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: and I want to make sure I'm spending that time 405 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 3: with the people the time I have with the people 406 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 3: that I love. 407 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: Did you know The River Cafe has a shop. It's 408 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: full of our favorite foods and designs. We have cookbooks, 409 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: Linden Napkins Kitchen, were toat bags with our signatures, glasses 410 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: from Venice, chocolates from Turin. You can find us right 411 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: next door to the River Cafe in London or online 412 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: at Shopthrivercafe. 413 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: Dot co dot uk. 414 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: When you were growing up, you describe always eating at 415 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: home and cooking at home in the community of home. 416 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: But what would you go to restaurants in Miami? 417 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 2: Would that be? 418 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 4: We would from time to time. 419 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 3: It's interesting, I do I remember that my parents because 420 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 3: they liked spicy food in particular, and some stories I 421 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 3: can tell you about spice and my father and the 422 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: crazy yes he makes. He makes a series of different 423 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 3: hot sauces from different types of peppers, including some are 424 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: from habanero peppers, some are from special Jamaican hot peppers, 425 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 3: some are from ghost peppers. He's like extremely spicy saw 426 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 3: so much so that when he makes them, we all 427 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 3: have to leave the house. 428 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 4: When he makes the. 429 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: Sauce in the kitchen, we have to step outside because 430 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 3: and he wears something that's equivalent to a gas mask 431 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 3: when he makes it, because the fumes there's so incredibly overpowering. 432 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 3: But once he's made it and put it in a bottle, 433 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: you add a little bit to your food, it tastes 434 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 3: incredible as long as you can tolerate the spice. So 435 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 3: but you know, and I generally like, I eat a 436 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 3: lot of spice, but that level of spice is even 437 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: hard for me to tolerate. 438 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 2: Would he find a restaurant that could serve him the. 439 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 3: Equivalent, so we would always be on the lookout for them, 440 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: And so I remember many times going to Chinese restaurants, 441 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 3: for example, and he would ask them like, can you 442 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 3: make it spicy? And there was always a cadence to 443 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 3: this conversation. First question, can you make it spicy? They 444 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 3: would say yes, Second question, how spicy can you make it? 445 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 3: They would say, well, we have a five star scale 446 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 3: and we can make it one to five. Then the 447 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 3: third question would say can you make seven stars? Can 448 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 3: you do get six? And then they would get scared 449 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: because they didn't want something to happen against you. But 450 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: then he would go through trying to convince him that 451 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 3: he really could take the spice. So generally, when we 452 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 3: went out to eat, it was often with in restaurants 453 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 3: where they hope people could make the food spicy, Chinese restaurants, 454 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 3: Thai restaurants, you know, food food cuisines of that sort. 455 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: And when you were in university, did you do what 456 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: was the food like? There was that a shock as well, 457 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: just sitting down to the kind of food they serve 458 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: at school. 459 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: Did you go out? 460 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 4: It was? 461 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 3: I actually lost a lot of weight in college. You know, 462 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 3: I think I'm a fairly normal weight now, but I actually, 463 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 3: if you can picture this, I weighed forty pounds less 464 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 3: when I was in college. 465 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: Did anybody notice? 466 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: I mean, did anybody notice that there was a student 467 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: in his freshman year homesick and losing weight and lonely. 468 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: Do you think was there any. 469 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 3: You know, no one ever asked me that question. Outside 470 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: of my family, I don't think anyone noticed, you know, 471 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: And but it was it was painful to my family. See, 472 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 3: they were there, they clearly knew something was wrong. I 473 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 3: wasn't feeling happy. 474 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 4: Et cetera. 475 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: But yeah, what I used to do is because I 476 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: missed the food of home. Also is I had a 477 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 3: little packet of spicy powder that I would take with 478 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: me to the dining hall and I would sprinkle it 479 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 3: on on everything, anything and everything you'd find. 480 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 4: I would just like spice it up. 481 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 3: And so even people who didn't know me knew that 482 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 3: I was I was a kid with the spicy powder. 483 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 4: You know who. 484 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 2: I have a friend who travels with chili's. 485 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, she always travels with some chili that she can 486 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: put on yeah food. I don't know whether she's afraid 487 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: of having inconsequential food or whether she just loves it 488 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: with spicy but. 489 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 3: Well, I learned that actually from my parents, because when 490 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 3: we would go out to restaurants I couldn't make food spicy, 491 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: sometimes they'd be really disappointed. So they would always have 492 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: their own like powder that they would add to it. 493 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 3: I remember a few times going out at that time 494 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: with his kids. We loved pizza and we wanted to 495 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 3: eat pizza, and we didn't make pizza at home, but 496 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: we always wanted to go to pizza Hut or something. 497 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 3: So sometimes they would be grudgingly go and they would 498 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 3: dutifully bring the spicy powder and sprinkle it all over 499 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 3: the pizza so that they looked like red pizza. 500 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: You know, you were in Harvard and Boston and Cambridge. 501 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: Did you have lobsters or did you try the local 502 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: food from the cake? 503 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 3: I had some of the local some of the Italian 504 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: food I had in the North End. 505 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: Was that a revelation or had you had it Miami? 506 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 4: It was? It was much better in the North End. 507 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: I think the limited past side I had in Miami 508 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 3: was it wasn't as authentic, you know, as what the 509 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 3: North Ends was. So that was that was quite quite extraordinary. 510 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 3: And then the pastries also, like the Italian pastries, were 511 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 3: just incredible. I had never had anything like that before. 512 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: I don't know. Indian desserts are they quite saying the right? 513 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: So some of them are dairy based, yeah, and a 514 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 3: lot of them are not. The Indian sweets tend to 515 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 3: be tend to be quite rich, you know, and and 516 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 3: also quite sweet as well, which is why some people 517 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: love them. 518 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 4: Some people really don't like them. 519 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: Do you like them? 520 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 4: I do? 521 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 3: I mean, look, I have like thirty two sweet teeth, 522 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 3: so I have. I just love the love desserts, which 523 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 3: is part of the reason I try to eat them 524 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 3: very sparingly, because otherwise I would just eat dessert all 525 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 3: day long. But I used to when I was growing up, 526 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: I would I learned to make one of the sweets 527 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 3: in particular that became. 528 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 4: So it was. 529 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 3: It goes by different names, but in our family we 530 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 3: called it k City bath, and it's also called Shida 531 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: and other parts of India. But it's a very it's 532 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 3: sort of my mom's type of dessert. It's very simple 533 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: in terms of the ingredients and involved. Basically, what you 534 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 3: do is you take a pen, you put let's say 535 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 3: two cups of cream of wheat or something equivalent to that. 536 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 3: You roast that with some clarified butter or ghee, and 537 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: you put some raisins in there to roast as well. 538 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 3: So you're roasting that for a while until you start 539 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: to smell like the wheat, you know, sort of aroma 540 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 3: cum come to your nose, and once it's slightly brown, 541 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 3: then what you do is that you actually add You 542 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 3: can add a couple of things. You can start by 543 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 3: adding a little bit of sugar, right about a quarter 544 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 3: a cup or a half cup of sugar, just to 545 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 3: do you start to see a glisten in the sugar melt, 546 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 3: and then what I used to do is I would 547 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: actually slice bananas and add them to that as well, 548 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 3: and then you crush cardamom, you know, with the mortar pestle, 549 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 3: and then you sprinkle the cardameom on top, and then 550 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 3: you mix it all together and then let the water 551 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: evaporate until you have something that's very silky smooth, and 552 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 3: you just the combination of the sugar, the fruit and 553 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: the cardamom really brings the dessert to life. So I 554 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 3: used to make that, you know, when I was growing up. Yeah, 555 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 3: I just made it a couple of weeks ago. 556 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: From my kids, it seemed very like recent, I was 557 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: the way you were describing it. Was it something that's 558 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: just always stayed in your mid It's. 559 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 3: Always seen in my head, Like I made it two 560 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: weeks ago for the first time in probably ten years, 561 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: and it brought back all these wonderful memories. 562 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 563 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 2: Do you cook at home now? 564 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 4: Now? 565 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 3: Very little, you know, which I regret. I used to 566 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 3: cook a fair amount up until I finished my medical 567 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 3: training and then and then it just sort of fell off. 568 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: I did you cook when you were doing your medical education? 569 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 4: Yeah? 570 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: Did you have a family then or you I did not, 571 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: so put everything into your studies. 572 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, I got married later in life when I was 573 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 3: thirty eight years old. In fact, I got married and 574 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 3: then now I have two wonderful kids. But in those days, 575 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 3: I was a bachelor doing my own thing in the kitchen. 576 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: What did you study in medicine? What was your specialty? 577 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: So I ended up studying internal medicine, which is the 578 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: care of adults. And I ended up specializing in hospital 579 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 3: based medicine. So when people are admitted to them there's 580 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 3: sick enough to be admitted to the hospital, then I 581 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 3: was the doctor who would take care of them there. 582 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 4: So that that's that's the And. 583 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, grueling. 584 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: Now would you would you be working again? 585 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how you did you did you manage 586 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: to cook? 587 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: You said you did cook when you were I. 588 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 3: Did cook, yeah, but it wasn't I mean I had 589 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 3: to like cook a bunch of food and then like 590 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 3: eat it over several days because there wasn't Sometimes you 591 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 3: would come home at three in the morning and then 592 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: you'd have to leave two hours later, five in the 593 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 3: morning to go and start the next days run. So 594 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 3: there wasn't a lot of time to cook. So I 595 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: would try to cook in advance, you know, and have 596 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 3: some food, but sometimes it wasn't easy, and so I 597 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: ended up having to eat out or eat in the 598 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: hospital cafeteria a lot, which was we could talk. 599 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: About hospital food. Yeah, that is such an issue now. 600 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: The way we feed our children and the way we 601 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: feed sick people in our society, I think tells us about. 602 00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: How we care for people. 603 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 4: You know. 604 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: I think it's very astutely said, and I think you're right. 605 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: I think one thing, if you look at the list 606 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 3: of medicines that we prescribe, there's one thing that's missing 607 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 3: from that list, and it's food, right, because food is 608 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: medicine and food helps us heal in many direct and 609 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: indirect ways. Yet somehow it does feel that the food 610 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 3: we give people in hospitals, and the food that we 611 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 3: even give kids in school. I think about the cafeteria, 612 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 3: you know, in my school growing up, and like what 613 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 3: we used to eat, and it's not the kind of 614 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 3: I think food we would want to give children and 615 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 3: give people who are ill if we fully understood just 616 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: how powerful food is in healing and how vital it 617 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 3: is for our well being in sustenance. And I do 618 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: worry that what has happened in part over the years, 619 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: is that we've allowed and I'm you know, my primary 620 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 3: experiences with the United States, but I do think sadly 621 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 3: this is happening in many other parts of the modernized world. 622 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: I do think we've allowed our food supply to become 623 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 3: poisoned in a sense by food that are overly processed 624 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 3: and that are filled with excessive amounts of salt and sugar, 625 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: and we've gotten away from, I think, some of the 626 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 3: healthier food that we all need. And it starts really early, 627 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 3: you know. I think if children had the opportunity to 628 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: experience healthy food, I meanly, I think it would make 629 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 3: a big difference. And I do believe, just from a 630 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 3: moral perspective, that no child should ever have to go hungry, 631 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: no child should ever have to eat food that is 632 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 3: bad for them just to survive. Yet that is a 633 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 3: reality that so many families are living right now, and 634 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 3: I do think it comes from just a failure from 635 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: a policy perspective to understand the vital importance of healthy 636 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: food in raising our children and making sure that society 637 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 3: is healthy and whole. 638 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think of how that happened and 639 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: when that happened, you know, the path to not being 640 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: concerned about feeding our children. 641 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 3: I think that the paradoxes that we've somehow made unhealthy 642 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 3: food cheap and made healthy food expensive, which has put 643 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: health out of the reach of so many people in society, 644 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 3: And that is what we have to flip because if 645 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 3: we don't do that, then I worry that this rise 646 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: in chronic illness that we're seeing heart disease, diabetes, cancer, 647 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 3: significant amount of which is driven by diet, that we'll 648 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: see those trends continue unless we manage to get back 649 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: to the root of what's driving it, which is in 650 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: large part our diet. 651 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: And so you're going from describing being the person that 652 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: people met in hospital and working with patients, and how 653 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: did that segue from that until how do you become 654 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: a surgeon general? You know, people who are listening who 655 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: might not know whether the two words surgeon general comes from, 656 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: can you. 657 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 3: Tell us absolutely well? In the United States, the position 658 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: of surgeon General is designated to be an individual who's 659 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 3: sometimes informally called the nation's doctor, but whose responsibility is 660 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: twofold and one is to make sure that the public 661 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: has the best possible information about health. So that they 662 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: can make good decisions for themselves and their families. And 663 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: the second is to oversee one of our eight uniformed 664 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 3: services in the US government, which is called a US 665 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 3: Public Health Service Commission CORPS. People are familiar with the Army, 666 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 3: the Navy, the Air Force. Well, one of our services 667 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 3: is the Public Health Service as well, and we focus 668 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 3: entirely on protecting the health of people, not just in 669 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 3: the United States, but also extending that mission outside the 670 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 3: US as well. So those are the responsibilities I have 671 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 3: as Surgeon General. 672 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: And how did you go from being a doctor in 673 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: a hospital to being the Surgeon General. 674 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I don't entirely know, to be honest 675 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: with you, and I'll tell you how it happened. But 676 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: after I finished my medical training, I was teaching at 677 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 3: a hospital. I was practicing medicine and caring for patients. 678 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 3: I was doing that for a good chunk of my time. 679 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 3: And then on the side, I was actually building a 680 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 3: technology company that I I hope would help to accelerate 681 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 3: medical research to help bring treatments and cures to people 682 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 3: more effectively. And I was I had gotten involved probably 683 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 3: in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight I 684 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 3: think around that timeframe also in health policy work. So 685 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 3: I was doing that hodgepodge of things like that, you know, 686 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 3: at the time, but never actually thought of working in government. 687 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 3: But then one day I happened to be, you know, 688 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 3: actually picking up my dry cleaning that day from the 689 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 3: dry cleaners, and my hands were full, and my phone 690 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 3: rank and it was a two to two area code, 691 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 3: which is the Washington d C. I lived in Boston 692 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 3: at the time, and I didn't recognize the number, so 693 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 3: I didn't pick it up. But then finally I decided, 694 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: let me just take the number, and that happened to 695 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 3: be a call from the White House at that time, 696 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: asking if I'd be interested in being considered for this position. 697 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 3: And what I came to understand later is that the 698 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 3: President Obama and his team, we're looking to modernize the 699 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 3: Office of the Surgeon General. They recognized this was a 700 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 3: new age that we were coming in to where people 701 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: receive their information differently, they learned about health issues differently, 702 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 3: and there's a whole new dimension of health threats that 703 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 3: we were facing, including the operate epidemic and the fentanyl crisis. 704 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 3: So anyway, they seem to think that I might be 705 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 3: a good fit for that role. So they reached out 706 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 3: at that time and that's how the whole journey began. 707 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for would you 708 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: please make sure to rape and review the podcast on 709 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, o, wherever you get 710 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: your podcasts. 711 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: Thank you. 712 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: When you had that break between being surgeon General with 713 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: President Obama and then now your position with President Biden, 714 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: tell me what did you do and how did that 715 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: lead to your interest in loneliness. 716 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 3: Well, to be honest with you, Ruthie, I was quite 717 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 3: lost in the beginning. 718 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 4: And I you know, I was. 719 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 3: Coming off of serving as Surgeon General for about two 720 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 3: and a half years or so, and my identity had 721 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 3: become wrapped up in that role, and I was abruptly 722 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 3: as civilian again and trying to figure out a bunch 723 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 3: of questions. And one of the things I was struggling 724 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 3: with in the process was that I had really lost 725 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 3: any sense of community during those few years that I 726 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 3: served in government. I had largely you know, I sort 727 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 3: of told myself, I think a familiar story that many 728 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 3: people tell themselves, perhaps when they have jobs for a 729 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 3: short period of time, which is I got to put 730 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 3: everything I have into this job, and I'll have time 731 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 3: to do the right catch up with life afterward. And 732 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 3: as a result, I had not caught up with friends, 733 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 3: I had not kept up with even family members at times, 734 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 3: and when I was with my parents or my wife 735 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 3: or you know, my sister, I was distracted often, you know, 736 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 3: I was going through my inbox, trying to clear out messages, 737 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 3: keeping up with the news that was relevant to my work, 738 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 3: and that just led to this real profound sense of 739 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 3: isolation and loneliness when I came out, and so I 740 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 3: struggled with that for quite a bit of time. And 741 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: in the process, one of the things that I was 742 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 3: digging into was recognizing that that experience of loneliness that 743 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 3: I was having, that it wasn't unique to me. I 744 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 3: was like reflecting more and more on conversations I had 745 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 3: had even when I was in office. The social connection 746 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 3: that I was missing and that I found was missing 747 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 3: for so many others was not just a good feeling. 748 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 3: It was actually something that was really vital to our 749 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 3: physical health and our mental health. And it's why, well, ultimately, 750 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: when I wrote about loneliness, it was about that profound 751 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 3: health impact around the recognition that when we struggle with 752 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 3: being disconnected from one another, that actually has an impact 753 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 3: on our mortality. And the mortality impact actually of loneliness 754 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 3: and isolation are similar to the mortality impact we see 755 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 3: with smoking, and even greater than that which we see 756 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 3: with obesity. So this is a real issue, but it's 757 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 3: also one that's deeply felt, and I certainly felt it 758 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 3: a lot during that time. So coming back the second 759 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,959 Speaker 3: time to serve felt very different than the first time, 760 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 3: in part because the country in the world was in 761 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 3: a very different place with COVID, but also because I 762 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 3: realized I really wanted to focus in on this deeper 763 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 3: mental health crisis that was running under the surface and 764 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 3: that was impacting so much of our lives, and that 765 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 3: was particularly impacting kids with rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide. 766 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 3: That we're all going in the wrong direction. And so 767 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 3: that has been really where I have focused much of 768 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 3: my time these last three years, is on addressing loneliness, 769 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 3: understanding the deeper roots of this mental health crisis, and 770 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 3: thinking about and honesty in a very personal context, not 771 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 3: just in terms of me, butters of my own kids. 772 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 3: You know, my kids are now six and seven, and 773 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 3: I want them to grow up in a world where 774 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 3: they feel happy they don't, where they feel connected to 775 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 3: other people, where they feel connected to other cultures. And 776 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 3: I want them to know that if they mess up 777 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 3: or do something wrong, that they are people who will 778 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 3: forgive them, men who will lift them up. 779 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 4: And I want to know. 780 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 3: That they will do that for other people as well. 781 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 3: But that means creating a world that's more kind and compassionate, 782 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 3: more forgiving and understanding, more connected and invested in one another. 783 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 3: But that's ultimately I think the work that I feel 784 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 3: is really essential for us to do. 785 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: Now, would you also add trust to that? 786 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: If you have trust, then you trust that there will 787 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: be that support system or that people are not there 788 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: to do you harm that you then might accept more. 789 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 4: Yes, that is the right word trust. 790 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 791 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 3: And the thing is trust trust can't be manufactured, and 792 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 3: it also doesn't come about overnight. It comes through relationship, right. 793 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 3: It's like when we get to know people and understand them, 794 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 3: then we come to trust them. And when we trust people, 795 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 3: we can also tolerate disagreement because we recognize that that 796 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 3: we're more than our opinion on a single issue, Right, 797 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 3: that there's something deeper that binds us together common hopes 798 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 3: and dreams, or shared humanity. But when that gets lost, 799 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 3: when we can't see each other as human beings, but 800 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 3: we only see each other as posts that we that 801 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 3: we write on social media, or as positions on a 802 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 3: particular controversial issue, then it becomes very hard to build trust. 803 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 3: It becomes hard then to move together in the face 804 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 3: of adversity. And that's why a key part of not 805 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 3: just preparing for better health, but also preparing for the 806 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 3: next pandemic has to involve rebuilding our ties with one 807 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 3: another and the trust that we have in society. 808 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: One of my favorite stories is of they were looking 809 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: into a happy community and happiness factors, and it was 810 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: this town in Denmark, and they interviewed people about why 811 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: they were happy, and it was to do with trust. 812 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: And they told the story about a Danish woman who 813 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: had which I remember, had taken her baby to New 814 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: York and she went inside to my Balthazar, one of 815 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: the cafes there, and left the baby outside in a 816 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 1: pram and she went in to eat because that's what 817 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: she would do in her town in Denmark. You know, 818 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: she thought that actually that's what they would do. They 819 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: would leave the baby outside, you know, but she. 820 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: Was able to watch it. And she was arrested for. 821 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, being whatever you call irresponsible towards an infant 822 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: because she'd left a baby outside, you know. But that 823 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: was to do with trust. And I think that what 824 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: you're doing is so you know, so inspiring and so important, 825 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: and you are actually in a position to make change. 826 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: People were saying in the River Cafe, thank you, So 827 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: as an American, I would add myself to those thanks 828 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: and to ask you as our last question, if food 829 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: is something that helps loneliness, if food is the way 830 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: you cook for your own children and the experience of 831 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: taking them places. Food is also comfort, So what would 832 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: be your comfort food search? 833 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 2: In general? 834 00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 4: I comfort food. 835 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 3: Well, there is a it's something my mother makes and 836 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 3: it's a particular. 837 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 4: A dish. 838 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 3: It's almost like a spicy broth water that's called russam 839 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 3: sam and traditionally you would mix it with rice to 840 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 3: eat it. And it's beautiful, spicy, flavorful as curry leaves 841 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 3: in it, as pepper, has all kinds of spices and 842 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 3: very ripe tomatoes. But you can also pour it in 843 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 3: a cup and drink it, and when I do that, 844 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 3: I feel like it's almost like an elixir that I'm having. 845 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 3: It sort of fills me with warmth literally, but also 846 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 3: with these beautiful memories I have of my mother. You know, 847 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 3: I had a professor once who said to me, he 848 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 3: said love. He said, food is not the calories you 849 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 3: put in your body. Food is the love your mother 850 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 3: gave you as a child. And I have thought about 851 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 3: that so often because that's what to me makes comfort 852 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 3: food comfort food. It's the food that reminds me of love. 853 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so. 854 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 4: Much, Rudy. 855 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 2: You'll see you again very soon. 856 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 4: I hope, so I as well have this love. 857 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table for in partnership 858 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: with Montclair. 859 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 3: Ruthie's Table four is produced by Atamei Studios for iHeartRadio. 860 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 4: It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers and it's produced by William Lensky. 861 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 4: This episode was edited by Julia Johnson and mixed by 862 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 4: Nigel Appleton. 863 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Faye Stewart and Zad Rogers. Our 864 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 3: production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator is 865 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 3: Bella Selini. Thank you to everyone at the River Cafe 866 00:42:47,719 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 3: for your help in making this episode.