WEBVTT - A Lightning Bolt of Desire 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.240 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:10.000 There comes a time when what you feared simply happens. 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:15.000 I've dreaded this moment for seven years, or maybe longer. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.480 Maybe I've dreaded it ever since Daniel was born, and 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.279 I realized that my child would one day grow up 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.480 and see me with a critical eye, would know who 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.240 I really am. But such a thing never happens in 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.480 just a day. Falling from grace can take a while. 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.400 It took many years for me to see my own 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:39.159 mother as a flawed, flesh and blood woman, a sexual 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.599 and spiritual being with needs of her own that sometimes 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.680 ran counter to those of her child, and in the 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.680 split second it takes to decide what to say next 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.280 to Daniel, whether to tell the truth or a lie. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.680 I think of my mother. I wonder if she'd do 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.920 it all differently now, I wonder if I'd do it 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.280 differently too. 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:08.759 That's Molly Rodent Winter, a former school teacher, writer, wife, 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.479 and mom who lives with her family in Brooklyn. She's 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:16.399 the author of the recently published More, a memoir of 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:21.840 open marriage. Mollie's is a story about desire and the 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.440 profound risks and potential rewards we face when we confront 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:44.040 and give voice to our own secret longings. I'm Danny Shapiro, 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.440 and this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.560 from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 0:01:50.560 --> 0:02:00.000 secrets we keep from ourselves. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.760 Up in Evanston, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.839 my father taught history at the local high school and 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:15.079 my mother taught English, and so growing up my parents 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:21.080 had teaching schedules, which meant they had summers free. I 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.160 have an older sister and my parents the year that 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.680 my sister was born, they bought a piece of property 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.680 up in Wisconsin with my dad's first royalty check for 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.640 a history textbook he co wrote. In the summers, we 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.520 would often go up to this place in Wisconsin, which 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.280 became an important kind of haven for me in some ways, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.480 although it was also very It was very rustic. There 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.840 was no hot water, no heat, no indoor bathroom. We 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.360 occasionally went in the dead of winter, when it was 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.720 pretty crazy to be there, I thought. But my grandparents 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.000 would frequently be up there with us, and once in 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.520 a while, my parents, especially my dad, would go up 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.280 by himself. You know, My childhood was in many ways, 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.560 very similar I think to a lot of suburban childhoods 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.160 in the seventies and eighties, where we didn't have tons 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.640 of parental supervision. There were a bunch of kids and 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:22.000 particularly girls, who lived on my block in Evanston and 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.000 just kind of ran around and did our thing. And 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.280 I read a lot too, and I didn't have someone 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:31.440 to play with. I was obsessed with Laura Ingleswilder. I 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.720 wanted to be a teacher. My mother was a teacher, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.480 my father was a teacher, and Laura Ingles Wilder was 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.960 a teacher. My sister was three and a half years older, 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:45.160 so she was often my babysitter, even when maybe I 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.040 was seven or eight and she was ten or eleven, 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.760 because there was always the neighbor across the street, or 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.600 we didn't have you know, we had some teenage babysitters 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.880 from the block as well. But my sister was my 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.880 main source of tension, and it was a pretty man 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.800 major source of tension in our family. My mother and 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:09.960 my sister clashed a lot, and I often felt like 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:15.720 it was my job to be extra extra good to 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:20.400 kind of make up for my sister being bad. She 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.400 was kind of pure shadow and I saw myself as 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.200 needing to be pure light in order to balance out 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:29.599 the scene. 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.640 So that was very formative, right. 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:38.479 Very formative. Yes, you know, my sister was the focal 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:43.280 point of a lot of my parents worry and concern, 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:48.400 so I aimed to be the opposite, and therefore studied 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.720 and you know, played piano and did all the things 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.560 I could think of to be good. I kind of 0:04:55.000 --> 0:05:01.280 leap frogged through the suburban elementary school curriculm. So I 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.560 ended up skipping fourth grade, which put me closer in 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.840 school to my sister. So we were in the same 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.200 middle school when I was in sixth grade and she 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.400 was in eighth grade. And I think that was hard 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.560 for her in some ways because I kept shining, you know, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.599 and I wanted to make her like me too. But 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.480 I'm sure it was just insufferable for her because she 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.679 was having so much kind of self loathing at the time, 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:33.320 and here I was this terribly competent, cheery little thing 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.200 that was just her opposite in every way. And that 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.760 was partly by design. I wanted to be her opposite. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.440 She scared me, She drank and she smoked, and she 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:43.200 had boyfriends. 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.040 So did that continue to dog you that sense of 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.159 needing to be, you know, the perfect one or the 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.000 good one. After you left home, did that kind of 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:55.120 did you carry that with you? 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.880 I did. When I was a senior in high school, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.680 my sister had gotten pregnant after her freshman year of 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.760 college and dropped out and decided to keep the baby, 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:13.120 and she came back to Evanstone with a child. So 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.840 when I was sixteen, I left home and she kind 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.560 of came back. She didn't live with my parents, but 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.960 my parents helped her quite a bit with her son. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.039 And that formed me more than I realized at the 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.080 time in terms of I think I had a pretty 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:35.760 strong year of sex. I equated it with pregnancy and 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:40.599 having to you know, not go to college and everything 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:44.279 kind of stopping. So again, in an effort to be different, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.680 I held onto my virginity as long as I could. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.719 I didn't lose my virginity till I was almost nineteen, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.080 which you know, at the time, I felt like every 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.720 single one of my friends had already had sex, and 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:01.960 so I was very I was not a sexually promiscuous teen, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:07.560 quite the opposite. In college, I did start to kind 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.920 of flex a little bit in terms of going to parties, 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.680 you know, drinking, and I probably went a little crazy 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.520 Compared to some of what people might experiment with in 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:20.600 high school. I was just so much younger that it 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.320 didn't occur to me. I didn't have the urges and 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.400 the drive. But I also had been so carefully kind 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:32.760 of curating myself in opposition to my sister that it 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.600 wasn't until I felt kind of like I had my 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.160 own space when I was away at school that I 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:42.320 could even start to experiment with those things. The guy 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.840 I lost my virginity to we had sex, which was 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.520 very brief, in my dorm room, and then he broke 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.880 up with me the next week. Though that was not 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.280 a real relationship, even though it was the closest thing 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.440 I had ever had. I had sex with one other 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.880 guy after that to try to convince myself that didn't matter. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:06.400 And then I started dating someone who had been a 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.560 friend of mine in college, and we dated for four 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.080 and a half years, and I spent my time trying 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.920 to figure out what I should do to make him impressed. 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.800 You know, he was going away to Zimbabwe after college, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.480 and so I went to Costa Rica to teach English. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.360 My father had been in the Peace Corps, so I 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.239 knew in Nigeria, and I knew this was a way 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:33.320 that I could get their approval and admiration. My college 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.240 boyfriend was quite a bit like my father, and it 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.120 didn't work out very well. I kind of had a 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.880 nervous breakdown month one. I was very, very lonely and 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.480 culture shocked, and I ended up leaving the program that 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.160 I had joined and feeling like a huge failure for 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.840 years and years afterwards because I hadn't been able to 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:55.800 cut it the way my father had or the way 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:59.839 my college boyfriend had. So the people pleasing ran deep 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:05.880 and included, and I think really manifested out of a 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.320 lack of clarity over who I was when I wasn't 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.480 in some kind of role as daughter, as girlfriend, as sister. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.079 I define myself almost always, as far back as I 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:23.160 can remember, in terms of other people. When we broke up, 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.600 you know, it was early twenty stuff and not exactly 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.360 high drama, but it felt like highdrama at the time, 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.320 I consess to him, and I didn't even realize it 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.800 until I was bawling my eyes out and we were 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.400 breaking up, and I told him that I didn't feel 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.040 like I was myself with him most of the time, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.280 and this concession came out of me before I even 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:50.800 had processed it, and I realized, it's this people pleasing 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.640 tendency which I have, since you know, very recently seen 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.679 reframed as self abandonment, which I think is a really 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:04.360 good reframe, a very true reframe that I had spent 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.480 so much of my life trying to figure out how 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:14.240 to please pretty much my parents, to make their lives 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:20.600 easier and also to get noticed in some way, that 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.120 it just carried over right away to this boyfriend. So 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.600 it was after I broke up with that college boyfriend 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.520 that I met my husband. When I was twenty three 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:35.520 years old. Stuart and I met at my best friend's 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:40.000 twenty fifth birthday party and I was still with my 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.040 college boyfriend. Stuart was with his girlfriend at the time, 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.480 and I found Stuart completely obnoxious. You know, I found 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.880 out leader that he liked me. He wasn't with somebody 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.719 that he was very serious about. And Stuart had been 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.880 a stand up comedian he started in high school and 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.360 did it all through college and let it go after college. 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:06.080 But was very funny, but he had this kind of 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.840 shtick that he would put on and I found out later, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.680 you know, it's like nerves for him. He was much 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.480 funnier to me once we were one on one. So 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.120 my friend told me that he was interested in me, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.360 but she didn't tell me that until after I had 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.760 broken up with my boyfriend about three or four months later, 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:31.840 and Stewart started asking my friend about you know, hey, 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:33.720 can I ask him Molly out? Can I ask Molly out? 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.400 And she was like fending him off on my behap, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.439 saying like her heart is broken, No, she's not available, 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.880 you know, you can't ask her out. But he was 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.760 very persistent. He was so eager to take me out. 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.800 And this was just this just felt so new. First 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.480 of all, that I was being pursued like this. I 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.200 had always felt like my college boyfriend was out of 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.800 my lee cues, very tall and kind of classic, handsome 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:05.000 and spoke French, and he was a great tennis player, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:11.360 just kind of did it all. And Stuart was different. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:16.439 He was balding and wore pleaded pants, and I hadn't 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.079 really seen him as attractive. And one of the very 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.880 interesting things that happened on our first date was that 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.760 I felt super attracted to him. And this is kind 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.719 of a big realization for me. Also that like I 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.960 thought I had a type, but I realized I didn't, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.680 And he had a way about him that was so engaging, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.280 and he listened to me, he found me funny. That 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.199 might have been the most exciting thing about being with him. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.480 I felt like I could be completely myself. He made 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:57.680 me feel so comfortable and we just really connected. From 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:02.040 word go and a second date that I had with him, 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.520 I was already thinking, like, I think I might be 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.080 in love with him. I think I could marry him, 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.160 you know what I mean. It was it threw me 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.120 for a loop because my plan was to kind of 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.160 sew my oats for a little while, because I hadn't 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.000 ever done that. I'd had this boyfriend for four years, 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:22.480 and then Stuart just really swept me off my feet. 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.680 My mother asked me a question when I was first 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.920 telling her about Stuart. She said, how do you feel 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.400 about yourself when you're with him? And I said, I 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:38.760 feel amazing and she was like, that's good, you know. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.360 So I was like, and that's what I kind of realized, 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.520 how terrible I'd been feeling about myself with my college boyfriend. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.120 How I kept trying to kind of twist myself into 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.000 Notts to be who he wanted me to be, and 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.480 I felt like I never quite figured it out. But 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.000 with Stuart, I felt like, Oh, I can just be 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.640 me and he's into me, you know, in a way 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:02.960 that felt so amazing. 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.920 Molly and Stuart have a powerful, positive connection. It feels safe, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.760 and that safety feels exciting. Just as Mollie feels like 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.080 she can be fully herself with Stuart, he feels like 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.920 he can be fully himself with her. So Stuart starts 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.520 to tell Mollie about some of his sexual fantasies and 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.120 this becomes the catalyst for their sexual exploration together. 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:39.560 Stuart told me that he liked the idea of me 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:44.640 with other men, and I, being the pleaser that I am, 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:50.960 wanted to oblige, you know. So we tried a few things. 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:56.480 We went to a sex club called Le Trapeze in 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.440 New York City and we went twice. You know, my 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.400 memory of it, I had to really excavate my memories 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.960 of it in order to write about it, because I 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.120 went to consult my journals, which I kept a journal 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.680 all through my twenties, and so I had the first 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.000 time we went to the sex club, and I wrote 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.000 about it as if it had been the best experience 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.000 I had ever had. My memory of it, though when 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.400 I by the time I consulted my journal, was that 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.080 it had been awful. So there was this strange disconnect, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.040 and I think the truth was actually somewhere in between. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.920 There were parts of it that I did like, but 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.640 it was mostly like getting the attention and pleasing Stuart. 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.080 I think that I liked and I didn't like the 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.320 anonymity of it at all. I don't know how well 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.920 I verbalized that. At the time I got married when 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:53.760 I was twenty six, so this must have been when 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.320 I was maybe twenty four. We went to the sex club, 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.400 and then we also before before we got married, had 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.320 a couple threesomes. One of them was with one of 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.520 Stuart's sex's girlfriends who was bisexual. And all of these 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.600 experiences didn't quite do it for me. Like I I 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.120 wasn't sure what it was, and I think I did 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:20.480 a lot of convincing myself that I did like things 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.440 because Stuart liked them, and I, you know, I hadn't 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.720 parsed out what parts of myself were for me and 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.400 what parts of myself were doing things for other people. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.680 So it was somewhere in the midst of those experiences 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.520 because I was saying that I didn't really like the 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.440 Three Sums, but there was something about it that was titillating, 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.000 and so Stuart was willing to be like, Okay, we 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.200 don't have to do anymore right now, but he was like, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.400 I think ten years from now, you're gonna want to 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.360 sleep with someone else that you know, you really He 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.840 knew I had not had money sexual exploration, and he 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.560 was I think part of why he was interested in 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.600 sex clubs and threesomes. Part of it was his own 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.280 you know, arousal titilation, but part of it was also recognizing, 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.159 you know, that we did have great sex and he 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.720 saw me as a sexual being. And he also had 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:24.040 had a whole decade of experimentation before we met. He's 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:25.840 five years older than I am, and he did not 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.400 have lots of long term girlfriends. He had a few, 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.080 but not, you know, never more than like a year 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:36.040 or so. So I didn't never have that period of exploration, 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:40.040 and I think Stuart intuited that that would be something 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.719 I would want, and so he said to me, I 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:44.840 have a feeling you're you're gonna want to sleep with 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.760 somebody else at some point, and just so you know, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.200 it's okay with me, but I just want you to 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.719 tell me about it, And then telling him about it 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.439 was twofold. It was like he didn't want me to 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.320 lie and he wanted to let me know it wasn't 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.359 going to be a deal breaker, that the honesty part 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.879 is what would keep us solid, not me going away 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:10.520 from the marriage without his participation. I don't know, but 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.640 I didn't think I was ever going to want to. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.080 I said to him, Oh, no, I'm never going to 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.240 want to do that. I was probably, you know, twenty 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.040 five at the time when he said that. And then 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.359 it was right around when I was thirty five that 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:27.399 things changed a little for me. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:45.000 We'll be right back in those intervening years, that decade 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:49.399 between twenty five and thirty five, something else happens. Mollie 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:55.480 and Stewart have two children, sons. The twentieth century feminist 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.280 author Kate Chopin once wrote, I would give my life 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:04.159 for my children, but I wouldn't give myself. This quote 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.800 resonates with Molly in the blur of early motherhood. She's 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:12.760 begun to feel like something's missing, and that's something is herself. 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:18.080 Because of the fact that I hadn't ever done that 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:24.439 kind of deeper exploratory work before I had kids of 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.080 who the HECKU I was. And I think this is 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.000 true for a lot of women. I'm sure it was 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:33.320 true for my mother as well. I didn't know what 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.760 I was even losing. It almost felt like a failure 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.760 to launch, even more than a loss in some ways, 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:46.840 because I had it ever figured myself out. I had 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.720 just gone from pleasing one person to pleasing another person 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:58.639 to trying to be a good mother and a good 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.520 wife and a good daughter and a good friend. Like 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.240 this is actually something I haven't thought about for a 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.440 long time. But there were a number of years where 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:15.320 I would say a prayer every night and I basically 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:21.159 prayed to be guided to being a good and this 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.520 was always the order a good mother, a good wife, daughter, 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.600 a good friend. And I don't even know exactly when 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:34.920 I stopped doing that, but it was it was years 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.720 that I that that's how I kind of went to 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.359 sleep every night with that wish on my lip, and 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.920 of course, like, what does that mean? What does that 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.240 look like? And there really isn't a lot of room 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:53.120 for selthhood. If that's what you're all of your kind 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:57.880 of emotional energy as being driven towards you know, how 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.640 can I be good in these to these people I love? 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.760 Do you think your mother had a similar litany in 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.639 her mind about her own goodness? 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:14.199 I absolutely think that she did, you know, without knowing, 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:18.359 I know that she did. And I think I am 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.680 very like my mother. Some of it maybe is genetic, 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:26.639 and some of it may be because I tried so 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:31.840 hard to kind of model myself after her when I 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.080 was a kid. My mother struck me as kind of 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:41.200 uncomplicated goodness. When I was young, I saw my mother 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:48.720 working really hard always to be a good teacher, a 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:53.639 good mother, a good wife, and a good person. She 0:21:53.840 --> 0:22:00.240 was also very much on a spiritual quest. She was 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:06.360 very drawn to East Asian traditions, and she practiced tai 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:11.520 chi in our living room. She started to do aiketo. 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:16.160 I started going to the aikito dojo with her when 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:22.000 I was probably seven or eight years old. Because my 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:26.040 parents were very busy, it was a good way to 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.959 spend time with them was to attach yourself to one 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.960 of their interests. So I was doing aikito with my 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:41.320 mom and then eventually followed her into mahakari, which was 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:47.520 her spiritual practice that involved giving and receiving divine light. 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.960 I joined when I was ten years old because she 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:56.200 told me that it would make her the happiest mother 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.360 in the world if I would join. My sister would 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.280 never have join, and she did not want to do 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.560 anything my mom was doing. So I, as a good girl, 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.000 took it upon myself to be her partner in this 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.639 in the family, and so it involved my going to 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:16.840 a dojo, my taking four day ceremony kind of initiation. 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:21.199 It was kind of a major activity for me and 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.960 my mother. I quit when I was twelve, and it 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.600 was kind of the first act of rebellion against my 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:31.040 mother ever I had ever done, to say I didn't 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:33.240 want to go to mahakari anymore. 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.560 And do you know why you didn't want to go anymore? 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.399 It was weird, you know. As a middle schooler, it 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.760 was boring too. It was a lot of hours of 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:50.360 listening to people talk about things that I could understand 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:53.280 but it wasn't of interest to me, and a lot 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.320 of sitting with your eyes closed, and it was kind 0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:02.240 of a sedentary boring activity that none of my friends had. 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.280 You know it, people looked at me funny if I 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:08.480 talked about it. So one of my secrets. I didn't 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:12.920 want anybody to know that we did this weird thing at. 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:19.720 Home one night when the boys are young, Daniel six 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.400 and Nate is a toddler. Stuart gets home a bit 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:26.639 later than expected, and in a moment of fraught chaotic domesticity, 0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:31.040 Mollie feels trapped and busts out. She leaves the house 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:34.159 says she's going out to get some air Stuart can 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.600 take over. Out on the street in Brooklyn, she runs 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:40.680 into an old work colleague, Kayla, who's on her way 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:43.760 to a bar to meet some friends. Kayla invites Molly 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:47.120 to tag along. Mollie doesn't have her phone or her wallet, 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:50.280 but Kayla convinces her to come anyway. She'll buy her 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:52.600 a glass of wine. 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:55.800 It was all kind of surrealed, all of a sudden, 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:59.720 I have been, you know, kind of wrapped up in 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:03.200 the life of a single person. You know, this friend 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:06.320 of mine pulled me into this, into this other world. 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.760 It felt like because I had moved to Brooklyn ten 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:12.760 days before my first child was born, I had never 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:14.960 been single in Brooklyn. I had lived on the Upper 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:18.399 West Side for five years prior, and that's where Stuart 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:22.320 and I lived before we had kids. So there's this 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.800 bar that was kind of famous, the Gate, and I'd 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:27.479 walked by it a bunch of times, but I'd go 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:31.520 in with her and it just felt so good for 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:35.080 one to just be in this bar atmosphere that I 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:39.640 hadn't really allowed myself to do since having kids then 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:43.280 six years at that point. And there was a guy there, 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:47.359 one of her friends who I it was like I 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:52.440 got hit by like a lightning bolt of desire and 0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:56.439 it shocked me. You know. It's that kind of like 0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:00.520 butterflies in the stomach, but it's also sort in your 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:06.000 growing kind of feeling like oh my, you know. And 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:10.320 I couldn't have felt less sexy. When I walked out 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:13.720 of the house, right, I was literally in like jeans 0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:16.399 and a hoodie, which is kind of my mom uniform, 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:21.199 not wearing makeup, nothing. But this guy and I like 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:24.480 we hit it off, you know, we were we had 0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:29.440 banter and it was like fun, flirtatious and he ended 0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:35.600 up buying my beer and at the end of this night, 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:39.280 you know, we exchanged numbers like old school style. I mean, 0:26:39.320 --> 0:26:41.919 it was two thousand and eight, so I had a phone, 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:43.800 but I had it wasn't the kind of thing where 0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:46.320 you would always even remember to bring your phone, so 0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:50.399 I hadn't brought my phone with me, so it's like 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:53.040 it was literally like phone number on a on a 0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:56.960 napkin kind of style. And then I went home. You know, 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:00.360 I was still kind of buzzing from this experience. When 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:02.879 I walked into the living room and saw the mess 0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:06.000 of the kids and went in and checked on them. 0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:08.240 It was kind of like it was kind of like, Okay, 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:11.320 now you're back in your real life. You know, that 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:15.840 was fun, but this is real life. And my husband 0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:21.239 Stuart had seen my phone had a text, and you know, 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.640 we didn't There's nothing that I was ever hiding from him. 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:28.159 We could look at each other's phones without feeling like 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:32.000 we were snooping. So he told me, you know, this 0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:35.080 guy Matt does texted you. I was like, what right? 0:27:35.160 --> 0:27:38.480 And it became clear as we're talking about it that 0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:44.679 Stuart knew that Matt was into me and was encouraging 0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:48.399 me to act on this. And this was when I 0:27:48.680 --> 0:27:52.320 kind of remembered that conversation we had had before we 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:54.679 got engaged where started said, if you ever went asleep 0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:57.760 with somebody, just let me know. And here I was 0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:02.719 in this moment, and it what was fascinating in retrospect 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:08.679 the moment, like I felt terrified, and there's something so 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:13.680 fascinating about that because I here I was, I had 0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:19.480 had this fun flirtation. My husband was saying, go for it, 0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:25.320 and my initial response was just terror. And I'm you know, 0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:29.199 I can I can try to analyze myself from the 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:33.080 distance of sixteen years later why that was. But I 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:36.560 think it was just it was so unknown. It was 0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:40.680 like this piece of me was coming to life that 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.720 I didn't even know she was there. 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:45.480 You know. 0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:51.280 It was like having a like hosting another spirit or something. 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:56.240 It just felt so strange, and so I also didn't 0:28:56.280 --> 0:29:01.720 know how on earth this new being within me could 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:05.920 live side by side with the mother in me. You know, 0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:09.640 I didn't know how that was possible, and it felt 0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:13.719 like it felt very dangerous. It felt like this is 0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:17.880 not an itch you should scratch. But at the same time, 0:29:18.680 --> 0:29:23.320 it was a really strong itch. And that's kind of 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:24.480 where it all began. 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:31.680 Molly and Matt engage in a brief, sporadic flirtation, but 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.480 soon she shuts it down. That is, she shuts down 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:40.280 her communication with Matt. The feeling she's had of desire, curiosity, 0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:45.040 and connection that isn't shutting down. It lingers, it haunts her. 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:48.000 But she's not sure what to do with this, so 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:52.720 she does nothing. It's an unnameable secret she's keeping from herself. 0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:56.240 But then one day she gets an invitation to a 0:29:56.320 --> 0:30:00.920 karaoke party and Matt's name is on the guest list. 0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:06.560 At the karaoke party, I saw mad again and we 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.760 ended up at the end of the night alone in 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:15.160 a karaoke room and we sang a song together and 0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:18.920 he had he was standing behind me with his hands 0:30:18.960 --> 0:30:21.920 on my hips. He was much taller, and it's like 0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:27.440 chin on my head and it was just electric. It 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:31.680 wasn't you know, in terms of transgression. I mean he 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:36.400 he had a girlfriend, so it was definitely we're not 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:42.160 supposed to touch other people when we are in a relationship. 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:48.120 Like that is the beginning or maybe even several steps 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:52.160 along the line of what I think in our society 0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:56.240 we call cheating, right, Like even like going out for 0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:59.239 a drink could be considered cheating too, and we had 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:02.520 done that one early on and that's when I shut 0:31:02.560 --> 0:31:06.240 it down. But there was a touch now that was 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:11.400 so impossible for me to ignore, and a moment where 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:15.360 I could have kissed him and I didn't. So when 0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:20.600 I went back home that night Stuart, I had not 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:23.400 told Stuart. This is also, you know, like kind of 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:26.880 like the mini secret. I had not told Stuart that 0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:29.600 Matt was going to be at this party, but Stuart 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:32.240 had figured it out, so when I confessed to him, 0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:35.320 he was not at all surprised that it wasn't It 0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:38.000 wasn't even something I needed to confess. That was part 0:31:38.000 --> 0:31:40.760 of what was confusing to me is what did I 0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:43.160 need to tell him and what did I not need 0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:48.360 to tell him? In terms of the secret kept from myself, 0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:51.920 one of the things that it took me a long 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:54.800 time to admit to myself is that I was doing 0:31:54.840 --> 0:32:00.920 this for me, That my attraction to Matt and my 0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:07.200 desire for him was not about my turning Stuart on. 0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:09.880 Even though I knew that Stuart got turned on by 0:32:09.920 --> 0:32:13.160 the idea of me with other guys. It was really 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:16.200 becoming clear to me that I didn't want to tell 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:19.520 him detailed I didn't want to tell Stuart details about 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:22.040 what had happened with Matt because that felt like it 0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:25.400 was cheapening it. It felt like it wasn't mine anymore. 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:28.880 And this was one of the things that created a 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:31.560 lot of inner conflict for me, because here I was, 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:34.920 I had my husband's permission as long as I told 0:32:35.000 --> 0:32:38.640 him everything, but I didn't want to tell him everything. 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:41.600 So it did feel like a little part of me 0:32:41.760 --> 0:32:44.680 was still cheating even though I had his whole permission, 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:50.200 and that was something we had to navigate as we 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:50.960 moved forward. 0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:58.360 This is pretty confusing stuff. It's no wonder that Mollie 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:02.160 needs help navigating all her fears, including or perhaps especially, 0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:07.440 the feelings she doesn't understand. So she starts therapy, and 0:33:07.520 --> 0:33:10.120 soon her therapist helps her to identify some of the 0:33:10.160 --> 0:33:14.840 secrets she's keeping from herself. Together with her therapist, Mollie 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:18.480 begins to realize that her interior life, her sense of 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:21.800 herself and her own worth, has been like a bucket 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.520 with a hole in it. No matter how full that 0:33:24.600 --> 0:33:29.640 bucket becomes, it will continue to leak and leak. That 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.320 metaphorical bucket becomes part of Molly's inner construct. 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:37.880 I think the way we were kind of talking about 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:41.800 it is how I could fill myself up. Actually I 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:46.040 wasn't filling myself up. I could let others fill me up. 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:51.960 Stewart or my children could make me feel good and 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:56.800 fill me with their love, but somehow it would leak 0:33:56.880 --> 0:34:00.960 out the bottom and my bucket would end up again. 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:08.200 So it's at this point that you start feeling compelled 0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:16.000 to understand more about your parents' marriage and what really 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:21.840 went on in that idealized perfect you know, Ozzie and 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:25.480 Harriet existence. Yeah, and you go to your mother and 0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:29.160 I guess you knew, or on some level you knew 0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:31.200 that your mother had had an affair. 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:34.719 Yeah. So when I was twenty eight, so I had 0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:37.920 already been married for a couple of years, but not 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:44.800 yet a mother, my aunt, my mother's older sister, told 0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:48.440 me that she had had an affair, and I was shocked. 0:34:49.160 --> 0:34:52.040 I was pretty sure I knew who it was because 0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:54.720 my mother's best friend when I was a kid, Jim, 0:34:55.520 --> 0:35:01.439 seemed like a very strong candidate, and and my mother 0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:06.160 had both joined Mahakari at around the same time. They 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:11.080 kind of were on there a spiritual quest together, and 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:14.360 both landed at Mahakari around the same time. It's my 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:18.520 memory of how it had happened. But then it took 0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:23.120 me a year to actually even confront my mother about 0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:26.520 the affair, as my aunt had called it, and my 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:29.680 mother also called it an affair. It was right after 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:33.759 my older son, Daniel was born, and Stuart's father was 0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:37.240 in the hospital dying, and my mother came to help, 0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:40.200 and it was you know, I think it almost had 0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:45.280 to get to to a kind of critical stage where 0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:49.640 life and death were kind of immediate. I didn't know 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:52.759 how to ask my mother this question. So here I 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.040 am a brand new mother. I've been hanging on to 0:35:55.160 --> 0:35:57.680 this knowledge for a year that my mother had an affair. 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:00.640 And I just told her, I said, you know, I 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:04.400 know about your affair with Jim, like does dad know? 0:36:05.440 --> 0:36:10.279 And she said it was your father's idea. And this 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:14.680 was after Stuart and I had done some of our explorations, 0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:18.160 you know, the sex party and the three and things 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:22.240 like that. This was years before or six years before 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.879 I met Matt. So that conversation that I had with 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:28.200 my mother when she told me it was my dad's 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:32.360 idea to have an affair, we didn't go much further. 0:36:32.520 --> 0:36:36.080 Than that, she just kind of mumbled something about, you know, 0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:38.839 while I was a virgin when we got married, your 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:42.360 father thought it would give me confidence. And I was 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:46.120 in that new mom brain hays at my father in 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:49.040 law was dying, So it's all kind of cloudy what 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:52.279 that conversation was like, but I know it ended and 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:56.080 I did not bring it up again until I was 0:36:56.160 --> 0:36:58.360 kind of in the throes of what was going on 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:01.880 with me and Matt, and that's when in therapy, my 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:04.120 therapist was like, I think you need to talk to 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:07.520 your mother about this, because there was such a clear, 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:11.680 you know, through line between her story and my story, 0:37:12.080 --> 0:37:16.480 and it was something I was really nervous to talk 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:17.720 to her about. 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:31.120 We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:37.000 With Stuart's consent, his words are go for it, Molly 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:40.759 and Matt begin a relationship. Stuart would also like to 0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:45.200 embark on his own extracurricular exploration, so at this point 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:49.760 they decide to open their marriage. Mollie agrees to the arrangement, 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.239 but it sets off an intense emotional experience for her. 0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:57.960 During this time, she wishes even more than before that 0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:00.719 she could muster the courage to talk about all this 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:01.479 with her mother. 0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:07.960 Stuart slept with an ex girlfriend, was the first person 0:38:08.040 --> 0:38:11.279 he slept with outside of the marriage with my permission. 0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:16.319 I wasn't nearly as enthusiastic about him doing it as 0:38:16.360 --> 0:38:20.520 he was about me doing it. But I was visiting 0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:24.760 my parents with the kids the weekend that it happened 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:27.640 with Stuart, and I knew it was probably going to 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:31.640 happen that weekend, and I was in agony the whole weekend, 0:38:31.880 --> 0:38:34.640 and I wanted to talk to my mother, but I 0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:38.920 couldn't bring myself to do it. And that's one of 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:43.600 the really interesting things I think that here I am. 0:38:43.680 --> 0:38:46.600 I know that my mother has had this situation and 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:51.160 it's similar to my situation, But why can't I talk 0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:53.719 to her about it? And I really do think there 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:57.719 was shame for both of us. I didn't feel like 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:03.239 she ever really gave herself full permission to do to 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:07.719 be a sexual person. I feel like she kept it 0:39:09.320 --> 0:39:14.680 under wraps because she didn't want anybody to know. My 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.480 father knew, and you know, she had told her older 0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:22.239 sister and clearly, you know, definitely regretted it once your 0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:25.640 sister had flapped it to me, And I think she 0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:31.080 felt like it would also be misunderstood and seen as 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:37.000 maybe more salacious than it really was, or she didn't 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:41.080 want to be seen as this, you know, kind of 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:45.160 a sexual deviant. And I think I carried a lot 0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:47.799 of that same shame that there was even though it 0:39:47.840 --> 0:39:50.360 was something my mother had done, that there was something 0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:55.439 just unsavory about it, and I was afraid to talk 0:39:55.480 --> 0:39:57.440 about it. I didn't know how to talk about it. 0:39:57.840 --> 0:40:00.839 You know, my relationship with Matt, we could even call 0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:06.440 it a relationship as really really spased out over several years. 0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:11.560 It wasn't like this was a constant weekly event. It 0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:14.120 was kind of every six months or so we would 0:40:14.400 --> 0:40:18.520 kind of hook up. But it was very fraught with drama. 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:21.760 And there was a secret was in that as well, 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:25.800 which is that you were keeping the secret from Matt, 0:40:26.440 --> 0:40:32.000 which was that Stuart was in full more than knowledge. 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:35.840 Stuart was almost a participant in that relationship, and that 0:40:35.920 --> 0:40:38.200 you would share a lot of what went on with 0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:40.480 Matt with Stuart and Stuart wanted you to, and it 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:45.520 turned Stuart on, and so it was part of your marriage. 0:40:45.760 --> 0:40:50.040 And Matt also had a girlfriend who he was quote 0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:52.880 unquote cheating on, who knew nothing about this, and he 0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:57.360 assumed that the same was true for you with your husband. 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:03.440 Yeah, and so I, you know, the fact that Stuart 0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:09.040 knew about what I was doing, I felt would I 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:11.360 was afraid to tell Matt that too, because I thought 0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:15.960 there would be I thought he would find it really weird, 0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:21.480 you know. And it's so interesting now, Danny, that you know, 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:26.840 polyamory and ethical non monogamy are kind of coming away 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:30.640 from the fringes, because now it would be unthinkable to 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:34.279 me that I wouldn't be straightforward with somebody about being 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:37.200 in an open marriage. But at the time I didn't 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:40.360 even want to. I didn't know even to use that language. 0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:46.640 It still felt deviant and strange and therefore something to 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:48.799 be a little ashamed of. 0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:59.040 Time and time again we see how secrecy and shame 0:41:59.480 --> 0:42:03.600 can lead to some kind of crisis or conflagration. And 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:08.239 this is true of Molly and Matt's relationship, which spectacularly 0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:13.040 flames out this by way of an impulsive and inflammatory 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:15.040 text message. Of all things. 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:20.279 Stuart had left so that I could invite Matt over to, 0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:23.680 you know, have a little tryst in our guest room, 0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:27.520 and I ended up running to the kitchen to get 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:31.160 some water and to quickly text Stuart that Matt was there, 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:34.239 and I wanted to reassure Stuart, so I wrote him. 0:42:34.360 --> 0:42:36.279 Still it still kind of gives me a little wave 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:39.720 of nausea to think about it, I texted, but don't worry, 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:43.400 he has nothing on you as a lover. And I 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:48.680 accidentally sent that text to Matt, not to Stuart. So yeah, 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:52.319 that's how Matt found out that Stuart knew and he 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:59.759 knew everything, and it did kind of that was the 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:04.080 And for me and Matt, there's so many secrets embedded 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:06.680 in that that I was keeping the secret of my 0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:11.239 open marriage from the man I was being intimate with, 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:15.440 And that tells you right there how limited my intimacy 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:20.680 was outside of my marriage at that point. And the 0:43:20.719 --> 0:43:23.080 story of More is kind of the story of me 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:27.480 opening myself up more and more and more in part 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:31.480 of it the exposure of the secrets or the kind 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:35.560 of crushing of the secretive part of what this was. 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:38.839 And it kind of culminates, of course, in the fact 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:42.200 that I've written a book about it. Now now there's 0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:44.759 no more secrets for anybody, whether they wanted to keep 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:45.239 them or not. 0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:50.279 Yeah, I mean, it strikes me so much that your 0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:55.000 story is more about the sort of eradicating of the 0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:59.560 interior secrets. It's the interior secrets of the things that 0:43:59.760 --> 0:44:05.399 you know we keep secret from ourselves become faceable by us. 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:10.920 Then it almost is inevitable that the outward facing secrets 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:13.680 are going to take care of themselves, because the only 0:44:13.719 --> 0:44:17.240 reason why they're even there is because we don't really 0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:19.920 know what's driving us. I mean, one of my favorite 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:23.239 quotes is from Carl Jung, and he wrote, until you 0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:27.040 make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life, and 0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:32.840 you will call it fate. At the end of Molly's 0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:36.440 relationship with Matt, she decides on a new path. She 0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:40.280 joins a dating app for married people called Ashley Madison. 0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:44.719 Even the logo for the app itself advertises its commitment 0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:48.680 to secrecy the lower half of a woman's face one 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:54.359 finger pressed to her lips. This leads Molly into several relationships, 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:59.600 increasingly pressing against an edge, it all becomes seedier, rougher, 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:04.400 pushing further and further away from her otherwise bourgeois life 0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:05.759 as a wife and mom. 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:13.120 This was me trying to do a couple of things. 0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:17.640 I think, for one, I was really in escape mode, 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:22.520 I think escaping from my role as a mother and 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:28.719 trying to have an adventure that was just for me. 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:33.600 I think it was also me not realizing and this 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:37.040 is you know again about the unconscious or the conscious 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:43.360 staying unconscious. I think I was trying to get my 0:45:43.640 --> 0:45:49.160 bucket filled. I think it was partly about me aging. 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:54.840 I was in my early forties at this time, and 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:59.440 as women were often told that once we're forty, were 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:04.080 kind of done, you know, like nobody's going to value 0:46:04.160 --> 0:46:07.080 us or find us attractive anymore, and we're going to 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:10.000 dry up and it, you know, just the beginning of 0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:12.640 the end. And so part of me felt like, oh, 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:17.160 if I'm ever going to have like a crazy sexual escapade, 0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:20.520 i'd better do it now. I feel like I was 0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:24.759 trying to live fully. You know. There's a line at 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:27.040 one point where I've had a kind of a very 0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:32.560 what I consider now a very sad sexual experience at 0:46:32.719 --> 0:46:38.399 the Sleep No More show, and I'm like, ah, I'm 0:46:38.440 --> 0:46:42.000 really living. You know. It's like like I was thinking 0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:45.520 that it had to be a seen from some sort 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:49.799 of showtime soft porn movie in order for it to 0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:53.440 be exciting and liberating, right, I had. I just had 0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:59.840 this really messed up idea of what sexual liberation looked like. 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:05.040 I thought I was being sexually liberated, but I was 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:09.920 just working myself deeper into the layer somehow of trying 0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:15.160 to please and trying to seek myself through pleasing others. 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:17.920 It's just not how it works. And thank god I 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:19.960 was in therapy, or I never would have figured it out. 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:24.080 And through the gaze of others, right like through new 0:47:24.280 --> 0:47:27.640 eyes looking at you and saying you're beautiful, you know, 0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:33.680 you're sexy, You're perfect. That is a kind of briefly 0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:37.560 bucket filling feeling, but there is that hole underneath. 0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:41.360 Yes, exactly. It was a bit of a dopamine hit. 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:44.480 It wasn't even the sex. It was the validation. I 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:49.040 was getting male validation. That it felt like a little 0:47:49.080 --> 0:47:52.160 dopamine hit every time. But then the low would get 0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:55.040 a little lower, you know, the highs weren't quite as 0:47:55.120 --> 0:48:00.920 high and the lows were much lower. And ultimately it 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:05.040 took quite a few bad relationships, although I don't actually 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:07.040 have regrets about any of them, because I feel like 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:10.680 they all helped me to figure myself out in some way, 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:14.600 shape or form. But yeah, I eventually came to some 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:19.279 understandings through therapy, largely of what it was that I 0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:22.240 was doing and what it was I needed to change. 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:27.480 And I'm realizing I wanted Stewart to fill me up, 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:30.200 or I wanted my kids to fill me up, and 0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:33.800 when they didn't, I went out looking for someone else 0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:37.239 to fill me up. But what I was discovering is 0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:39.600 that I has to fill myself up. 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:44.719 It's during this Ashley Madison period that Mollie's on a 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:48.080 business trip and when her plane lands, a cascade of 0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:52.839 text messages appear. It's her son, Daniel, who's thirteen at 0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:57.239 the time. Daniel is in a panic. His laptop had died, 0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:01.440 so he went to grab his dad's and on Stewart's laptop, 0:49:01.880 --> 0:49:06.719 he saw a shocking window open his dad's Okay Cupid profile. 0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:10.880 His immediate thought is that his dad must be cheating 0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:11.479 on his mom. 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:18.759 What's interesting is that I wasn't actually sure in that 0:49:18.880 --> 0:49:23.680 moment what would be worse. What would be worse. Would 0:49:23.719 --> 0:49:25.880 it be worse for Daniel to think his father was 0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:30.080 cheating on me, or for Daniel to know that we 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:33.200 had an open marriage and I was also having sex 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:37.120 with other men. You know, there was no precedent in 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:40.560 my own family for this. My mother had never told me, 0:49:41.480 --> 0:49:44.360 and I still at that stage, had never spoken to 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:48.319 my father about it. But yeah, it was kind of 0:49:48.360 --> 0:49:53.839 a moment of my mom's self and my you know 0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:59.440 what I had partitioned off as my sexual self meeting 0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:05.080 in that moment in the airport, and it felt calamitous. 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:14.600 It felt like the worst possible thing. But what's interesting 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.920 is that when what you think is the worst possible 0:50:18.000 --> 0:50:21.839 thing happens, it actually frees you up quite a bit. 0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:27.799 So in that moment I was able to you know, 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:31.080 I don't think I did it very gracefully. I did 0:50:31.200 --> 0:50:34.239 feel like, oh, I can tell him what this is, 0:50:34.280 --> 0:50:39.120 and I can tell him honestly why he doesn't have 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:43.840 to worry. And there was something very freeing and comforting 0:50:43.880 --> 0:50:47.080 to myself about that, even though I continued to worry 0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:51.760 for years about how much I had kind of screwed 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:54.880 Daniel up as a result. But I did feel like 0:50:55.920 --> 0:50:59.879 I can tell him honestly, like, don't worry, honey. Dad 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:02.879 and I really love each other and we do tell 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:06.719 each other everything. And this doesn't mean that anything in 0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:09.480 your world is going to change. And I could say 0:51:09.520 --> 0:51:13.560 that and mean it and know it. That our marriage 0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:19.160 has actually, you know, just gotten stronger and stronger as 0:51:19.239 --> 0:51:22.960 we've kind of brought more of our inner truths to 0:51:23.040 --> 0:51:26.880 the light instead of keeping them in the shadows. So 0:51:27.800 --> 0:51:29.919 we are in a strong place. And I was able 0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:33.040 to tell Daniel at that time, which is now, I 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:36.680 can't believe it, but nine years ago, that everything is 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:40.160 really okay and you don't need to worry. There's nothing 0:51:40.320 --> 0:51:43.400 you have to worry about here, and to mean it. 0:51:43.640 --> 0:51:46.080 So it was hard, and it was hard for me 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:52.880 to feel like I had become something other in his eyes. 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:57.240 But I realized too how important it is. It's occurred 0:51:57.280 --> 0:52:00.520 to me more as I was right the book, and 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:03.719 as the book has kind of entered the world, how 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:07.640 important it is to be your authentic self, not and 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.840 I don't mean a self without boundaries or privacy, because 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:14.680 boundaries and privacy are still important, very important, I think 0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:18.239 between parents and children. But I also think the fact 0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:21.600 that my mother never let me see any part of 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:25.759 herself that wasn't kind of part of this Ozzie and 0:52:25.760 --> 0:52:29.879 Harriet image, this perfect mom image, because I never saw that. 0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:33.760 I didn't know what was possible for myself and although 0:52:33.760 --> 0:52:36.080 I have sons, I still think it's so important for 0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:41.920 boys to see their mothers being their full, authentic self, 0:52:42.600 --> 0:52:47.560 so they know when they're looking for partners and try 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:51.360 to be a good partner, that they are meeting the 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:55.319 women that come into their lives as whole people who 0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:57.600 are not gonna, you know, who you're not going to 0:52:57.719 --> 0:53:02.480 ask to shelve a part of them selves just because 0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:04.880 they're also gonna, you know, maybe start a family. I 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:08.520 feel like that happens so often that we think that 0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:15.719 we're done being ourselves as mothers, and we're not, and 0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:18.560 we shouldn't be. You know, there's too much of life 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:23.640 left and too much that mature women have to give 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:26.879 to the world for us to just shut ourselves down. 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:29.360 Well, it's so interesting. I mean, one of the thoughts 0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:32.680 that I've had many times in recent years is that 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:35.400 once you're a parent, you're a parent forever. But the 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:39.880 years of active parenting of kids under your roof are actually, 0:53:40.239 --> 0:53:43.200 if things go according to plan, one of the shorter 0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:47.839 chapters in a long adult life. You know, yes, there 0:53:47.840 --> 0:53:50.600 are the years before children, and there are the many 0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:55.000 years once children have moved into their young adult lives, 0:53:55.080 --> 0:53:58.440 and we lose sight of that, or the years of 0:53:58.480 --> 0:54:05.600 being parents are ones that we're supposed to feel nostalgic for. 0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:08.279 We're supposed to yearn for before we have them, and 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:10.399 then we're supposed to feel nostalgic for, like the best 0:54:10.440 --> 0:54:13.360 years are behind us. And it's just something that's really 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:16.640 true in our culture that I think, you know, your 0:54:16.680 --> 0:54:19.160 story speaks to in a really really interesting way. 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:29.080 Yeah, I agree that this is true. 0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:32.600 Molly's done pushing against the edges of the bucket. She 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:36.640 deletes her Ashley Madison account, now only interested in the 0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:40.640 honest version of open marriage, the kind where true communication 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:45.479 being seen, being heard, being understood in a deep way 0:54:46.120 --> 0:54:50.240 is the foundation for the erotic. It's during this time 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:55.160 that she meets Scott. She goes out on a date 0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:57.920 with Scott and is struck by the realization that the 0:54:57.960 --> 0:55:02.200 safety she feels with him to be herself, to be valued, 0:55:02.200 --> 0:55:05.160 for her true self, not to be performing putting on 0:55:05.200 --> 0:55:09.560 an act. It reminds her of something. It reminds her 0:55:10.120 --> 0:55:14.600 of how she felt when she first met Stuart. One 0:55:14.680 --> 0:55:17.960 night after she's been with Scott, Molly comes home, but 0:55:18.000 --> 0:55:21.200 before she heads inside, she sees Stuart through a lit 0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:24.880 window of their house. He's in his first floor recording 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:29.200 studio doing his work, and it's almost like she's seeing 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:33.560 her husband and her marriage with fresh eyes. She's reminded 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.719 of why she is in love with Stuart, why this 0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:42.759 man is her husband. As time goes on, Scott wants more, 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:47.160 his own marriage implodes, and what he really wants, ironically, 0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:51.719 is monogamy. He asks Molly if she's ever going to 0:55:51.800 --> 0:55:57.400 leave Stuart, and the answer is an emphatic no. Molly 0:55:57.520 --> 0:56:03.000 is certain that the answer will forever be an emphatic no, 0:56:03.000 --> 0:56:05.799 no matter what either of them does, they are in 0:56:05.840 --> 0:56:06.440 this together. 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:15.160 That was a really significant moment for me because it 0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:19.080 felt for the first time, if I'm forced to choose 0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:22.600 between Stewart and anybody, the answer is going to be Stuart. 0:56:22.719 --> 0:56:27.440 I want Stuart. Stuart is my husband forever, not because 0:56:27.440 --> 0:56:31.439 we're stuck, but because we're choosing each other. And that's 0:56:31.520 --> 0:56:36.040 part of what has made our relationship so strong, is 0:56:36.080 --> 0:56:39.200 that we both choose each other over and over and 0:56:39.280 --> 0:56:41.759 over again, and we have reason to choose each other. 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:46.600 And it's like, I just don't see that ever ever changing. 0:56:47.320 --> 0:56:50.000 But the other thing I was choosing in that moment 0:56:50.120 --> 0:56:53.920 was I was realizing I was really choosing polyamory. That 0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:59.799 experience of loving Scott and having it make me love 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:05.120 Stuart more not less. I didn't know that was possible. 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:08.640 One of our rules early on was no falling in love, 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:10.680 like you can go have sex with other people, but 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:13.680 make sure you don't fall in love with anyone else, 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:18.240 because that seemed really dangerous to me. And my relationship 0:57:18.280 --> 0:57:21.760 with Scott taught me not only is it possible, but 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:25.800 it's magical to love more than one person. This is 0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:29.840 about ten years into my open marriage journey that I 0:57:29.920 --> 0:57:34.160 really had that experience. But now I don't settle for 0:57:34.280 --> 0:57:41.400 anything less than that. I don't want to have casual sex. 0:57:41.480 --> 0:57:46.560 I can only have now connected sex and relationships that 0:57:46.600 --> 0:57:49.680 are loving. So that was a real moment for me, 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:53.240 and I think that's the real arc for me in 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:57.680 all of this. It was me coming home to myself 0:57:57.760 --> 0:58:01.680 and coming home to all the parts of myself that 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:06.320 I had kept secret. And I think it's the one 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:10.280 aspect of womanhood that we are taught to be ashamed 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:13.280 of our sexuality. I just found out that the word 0:58:13.280 --> 0:58:17.720 pudendum comes from the Latin to be ashamed of, which 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:22.080 was shocking to me. You know, I quote Audre Lord, 0:58:22.680 --> 0:58:26.080 the erotic is the nurturer of all our deepest knowledge. 0:58:26.640 --> 0:58:31.240 And when we don't allow or encourage women to explore 0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:35.840 their own erotic selves, I feel like we cut off 0:58:35.880 --> 0:58:39.480 a piece of ourselves. And especially when we're taught that 0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:43.680 it's something that belongs to our husband or that we 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:50.640 have to just reject because it conflicts with motherhood. You 0:58:50.720 --> 0:58:54.000 can't be a sexual person and a mother. I feel 0:58:54.000 --> 0:58:56.760 like it's really to our detriment. And I feel like 0:58:56.920 --> 0:58:59.720 one of my biggest secrets was, oh, I am a 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:05.680 sexual being that is evolving throughout life. That my sexuality, 0:59:06.360 --> 0:59:08.720 if it stayed the same as it was when I 0:59:08.760 --> 0:59:13.040 was twenty three when I first met my husband, that 0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:17.160 would be a tragedy. It's through I think, for me anyway, 0:59:17.280 --> 0:59:21.080 and the erotic self that I have come to know, 0:59:22.080 --> 0:59:27.880 my fullest, multifaceted self. I think jealousy is a fear 0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:31.520 that there won't be enough for me, or that I'm 0:59:31.560 --> 0:59:34.400 not enough, that if he loves someone else, there will 0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:38.760 be less love for me. And I have found first 0:59:38.840 --> 0:59:45.000 and foremost that that just isn't true. I have found 0:59:45.640 --> 0:59:50.480 that our love has deepened as we've allowed ourselves to 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:54.480 love other people that we have less fear and less 0:59:55.040 --> 0:59:59.640 need to guard what the other one might be getting 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:04.200 somewhere else. And I think there's a secretive aspect to 1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:08.320 this too that we've had to let go of. There 1:00:08.400 --> 1:00:10.680 was the don't fall in love rule at another point 1:00:10.720 --> 1:00:13.680 I also briefly tried, and I think a lot of 1:00:13.720 --> 1:00:16.120 people who open their marriages try this for a time 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:19.680 at least, a don't ask, don't tell kind of policy 1:00:20.240 --> 1:00:23.360 where we say, you know, I would rather you keep 1:00:23.720 --> 1:00:26.480 a secret from me. Is basically what we're saying, I 1:00:26.480 --> 1:00:30.960 would rather not know the truth because the truth is 1:00:31.000 --> 1:00:34.760 too painful. That's kind of what the message is behind 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:38.440 don't tell me what you're doing. And I found myself 1:00:38.480 --> 1:00:41.880 actually getting angry with Stuart when he wasn't lying to 1:00:41.920 --> 1:00:45.560 me well enough, when he didn't keep his secrets well enough. 1:00:46.280 --> 1:00:49.640 And so where we've evolved at this stage is that 1:00:50.000 --> 1:00:53.400 you can tell me anything, but we don't have to 1:00:53.480 --> 1:00:57.880 tell each other everything. We both allow for the other 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:03.200 to have things that are our own, because I think 1:01:03.280 --> 1:01:06.880 we just have such a strong trust that we do 1:01:06.960 --> 1:01:09.400 love each other and we are committed to each other. 1:01:09.560 --> 1:01:11.480 And if you have something that you want to keep 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:15.640 to yourself. It's okay, but we also feel I also 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:18.720 really strongly feel that if Stuart tells me something and 1:01:18.760 --> 1:01:21.640 it sparks a feeling in me, that doesn't mean he 1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:26.360 shouldn't have told me. It means I'm having a feeling 1:01:26.440 --> 1:01:30.640 and I might need help holding it. So that if 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:35.040 he tells me that he went out with someone new 1:01:35.120 --> 1:01:38.280 and they were just hilarious and we're cracking him up, 1:01:38.320 --> 1:01:41.560 that often, you know, sparks some jealousy in me, that like, 1:01:41.640 --> 1:01:45.240 oh no, that means that he thinks she's funnier than 1:01:45.280 --> 1:01:48.680 I am, or I'm not you know, his favorite, or 1:01:48.720 --> 1:01:52.840 you know, all these kinds of insecurities and fears and all. 1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:55.680 What I'm really asking for is, can you reassure me? 1:01:56.000 --> 1:01:58.360 Can you tell me that you love me again? Can 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:03.640 you spend time with me, give me some attention. You know, 1:02:03.680 --> 1:02:07.240 it used to be like maybe a four hour conversation 1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:10.000 that involves a lot of my crying and things like that. 1:02:10.080 --> 1:02:12.560 I feel like we're getting to a point now where 1:02:12.560 --> 1:02:14.880 it's much more like I can ask for what I 1:02:14.960 --> 1:02:18.760 need more quickly and he can readily give it, and 1:02:18.840 --> 1:02:21.320 so then I just feel taken care of then I 1:02:21.360 --> 1:02:25.400 feel okay, and it's so much It's so much healthier 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:29.320 and healing to be able to do that as opposed 1:02:29.400 --> 1:02:33.560 to saying no, don't tell me you know anything that 1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:37.800 might make me feel something I don't want to feel. 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:43.520 If instead we let ourselves share freely and then help 1:02:43.560 --> 1:02:46.680 each other hold the feelings that arise, that's how you 1:02:46.800 --> 1:02:50.040 work through tough feelings and kind of get to the 1:02:50.080 --> 1:03:18.600 magical place on the other side. 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:23.440 Family Secret is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is 1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:26.600 the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 1:03:27.880 --> 1:03:29.880 If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 1:03:30.240 --> 1:03:32.680 please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 1:03:32.720 --> 1:03:36.080 on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:40.280 eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 1:03:40.440 --> 1:03:45.280 find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 1:03:45.320 --> 1:03:47.760 like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 1:03:48.160 --> 1:03:50.040 check out my memoir Inheritance. 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:16.400 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:04:16.480 --> 1:04:18.520 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.