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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: There comes a time when what you feared simply happens.

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Speaker 2: I've dreaded this moment for seven years, or maybe longer.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I've dreaded it ever since Daniel was born, and

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Speaker 2: I realized that my child would one day grow up

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Speaker 2: and see me with a critical eye, would know who

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Speaker 2: I really am. But such a thing never happens in

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Speaker 2: just a day. Falling from grace can take a while.

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Speaker 2: It took many years for me to see my own

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Speaker 2: mother as a flawed, flesh and blood woman, a sexual

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Speaker 2: and spiritual being with needs of her own that sometimes

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Speaker 2: ran counter to those of her child, and in the

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Speaker 2: split second it takes to decide what to say next

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Speaker 2: to Daniel, whether to tell the truth or a lie.

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Speaker 2: I think of my mother. I wonder if she'd do

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Speaker 2: it all differently now, I wonder if I'd do it

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Speaker 2: differently too.

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Speaker 3: That's Molly Rodent Winter, a former school teacher, writer, wife,

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Speaker 3: and mom who lives with her family in Brooklyn. She's

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Speaker 3: the author of the recently published More, a memoir of

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Speaker 3: open marriage. Mollie's is a story about desire and the

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Speaker 3: profound risks and potential rewards we face when we confront

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Speaker 3: and give voice to our own secret longings. I'm Danny Shapiro,

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Speaker 3: and this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept

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Speaker 3: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the

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Speaker 3: secrets we keep from ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Up in Evanston, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago,

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Speaker 2: my father taught history at the local high school and

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Speaker 2: my mother taught English, and so growing up my parents

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Speaker 2: had teaching schedules, which meant they had summers free. I

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Speaker 2: have an older sister and my parents the year that

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Speaker 2: my sister was born, they bought a piece of property

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Speaker 2: up in Wisconsin with my dad's first royalty check for

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Speaker 2: a history textbook he co wrote. In the summers, we

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Speaker 2: would often go up to this place in Wisconsin, which

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Speaker 2: became an important kind of haven for me in some ways,

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Speaker 2: although it was also very It was very rustic. There

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Speaker 2: was no hot water, no heat, no indoor bathroom. We

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Speaker 2: occasionally went in the dead of winter, when it was

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Speaker 2: pretty crazy to be there, I thought. But my grandparents

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Speaker 2: would frequently be up there with us, and once in

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Speaker 2: a while, my parents, especially my dad, would go up

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Speaker 2: by himself. You know, My childhood was in many ways,

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Speaker 2: very similar I think to a lot of suburban childhoods

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Speaker 2: in the seventies and eighties, where we didn't have tons

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Speaker 2: of parental supervision. There were a bunch of kids and

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Speaker 2: particularly girls, who lived on my block in Evanston and

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Speaker 2: just kind of ran around and did our thing. And

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Speaker 2: I read a lot too, and I didn't have someone

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Speaker 2: to play with. I was obsessed with Laura Ingleswilder. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to be a teacher. My mother was a teacher,

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Speaker 2: my father was a teacher, and Laura Ingles Wilder was

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Speaker 2: a teacher. My sister was three and a half years older,

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Speaker 2: so she was often my babysitter, even when maybe I

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Speaker 2: was seven or eight and she was ten or eleven,

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Speaker 2: because there was always the neighbor across the street, or

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Speaker 2: we didn't have you know, we had some teenage babysitters

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Speaker 2: from the block as well. But my sister was my

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Speaker 2: main source of tension, and it was a pretty man

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Speaker 2: major source of tension in our family. My mother and

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Speaker 2: my sister clashed a lot, and I often felt like

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Speaker 2: it was my job to be extra extra good to

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Speaker 2: kind of make up for my sister being bad. She

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Speaker 2: was kind of pure shadow and I saw myself as

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Speaker 2: needing to be pure light in order to balance out

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Speaker 2: the scene.

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Speaker 3: So that was very formative, right.

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Speaker 2: Very formative. Yes, you know, my sister was the focal

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Speaker 2: point of a lot of my parents worry and concern,

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Speaker 2: so I aimed to be the opposite, and therefore studied

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Speaker 2: and you know, played piano and did all the things

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Speaker 2: I could think of to be good. I kind of

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Speaker 2: leap frogged through the suburban elementary school curriculm. So I

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Speaker 2: ended up skipping fourth grade, which put me closer in

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Speaker 2: school to my sister. So we were in the same

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Speaker 2: middle school when I was in sixth grade and she

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Speaker 2: was in eighth grade. And I think that was hard

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Speaker 2: for her in some ways because I kept shining, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to make her like me too. But

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it was just insufferable for her because she

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Speaker 2: was having so much kind of self loathing at the time,

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Speaker 2: and here I was this terribly competent, cheery little thing

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Speaker 2: that was just her opposite in every way. And that

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Speaker 2: was partly by design. I wanted to be her opposite.

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Speaker 2: She scared me, She drank and she smoked, and she

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Speaker 2: had boyfriends.

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Speaker 3: So did that continue to dog you that sense of

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Speaker 3: needing to be, you know, the perfect one or the

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Speaker 3: good one. After you left home, did that kind of

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Speaker 3: did you carry that with you?

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Speaker 2: I did. When I was a senior in high school,

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Speaker 2: my sister had gotten pregnant after her freshman year of

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Speaker 2: college and dropped out and decided to keep the baby,

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Speaker 2: and she came back to Evanstone with a child. So

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Speaker 2: when I was sixteen, I left home and she kind

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Speaker 2: of came back. She didn't live with my parents, but

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Speaker 2: my parents helped her quite a bit with her son.

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Speaker 2: And that formed me more than I realized at the

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Speaker 2: time in terms of I think I had a pretty

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Speaker 2: strong year of sex. I equated it with pregnancy and

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Speaker 2: having to you know, not go to college and everything

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Speaker 2: kind of stopping. So again, in an effort to be different,

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Speaker 2: I held onto my virginity as long as I could.

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Speaker 2: I didn't lose my virginity till I was almost nineteen,

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Speaker 2: which you know, at the time, I felt like every

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Speaker 2: single one of my friends had already had sex, and

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Speaker 2: so I was very I was not a sexually promiscuous teen,

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Speaker 2: quite the opposite. In college, I did start to kind

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Speaker 2: of flex a little bit in terms of going to parties,

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Speaker 2: you know, drinking, and I probably went a little crazy

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Speaker 2: Compared to some of what people might experiment with in

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Speaker 2: high school. I was just so much younger that it

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Speaker 2: didn't occur to me. I didn't have the urges and

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Speaker 2: the drive. But I also had been so carefully kind

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Speaker 2: of curating myself in opposition to my sister that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't until I felt kind of like I had my

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Speaker 2: own space when I was away at school that I

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Speaker 2: could even start to experiment with those things. The guy

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Speaker 2: I lost my virginity to we had sex, which was

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Speaker 2: very brief, in my dorm room, and then he broke

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Speaker 2: up with me the next week. Though that was not

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Speaker 2: a real relationship, even though it was the closest thing

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Speaker 2: I had ever had. I had sex with one other

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Speaker 2: guy after that to try to convince myself that didn't matter.

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Speaker 2: And then I started dating someone who had been a

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Speaker 2: friend of mine in college, and we dated for four

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Speaker 2: and a half years, and I spent my time trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out what I should do to make him impressed.

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Speaker 2: You know, he was going away to Zimbabwe after college,

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Speaker 2: and so I went to Costa Rica to teach English.

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Speaker 2: My father had been in the Peace Corps, so I

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Speaker 2: knew in Nigeria, and I knew this was a way

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Speaker 2: that I could get their approval and admiration. My college

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Speaker 2: boyfriend was quite a bit like my father, and it

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Speaker 2: didn't work out very well. I kind of had a

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Speaker 2: nervous breakdown month one. I was very, very lonely and

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Speaker 2: culture shocked, and I ended up leaving the program that

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Speaker 2: I had joined and feeling like a huge failure for

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Speaker 2: years and years afterwards because I hadn't been able to

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Speaker 2: cut it the way my father had or the way

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Speaker 2: my college boyfriend had. So the people pleasing ran deep

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Speaker 2: and included, and I think really manifested out of a

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Speaker 2: lack of clarity over who I was when I wasn't

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Speaker 2: in some kind of role as daughter, as girlfriend, as sister.

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Speaker 2: I define myself almost always, as far back as I

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Speaker 2: can remember, in terms of other people. When we broke up,

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Speaker 2: you know, it was early twenty stuff and not exactly

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Speaker 2: high drama, but it felt like highdrama at the time,

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Speaker 2: I consess to him, and I didn't even realize it

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Speaker 2: until I was bawling my eyes out and we were

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Speaker 2: breaking up, and I told him that I didn't feel

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Speaker 2: like I was myself with him most of the time,

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Speaker 2: and this concession came out of me before I even

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Speaker 2: had processed it, and I realized, it's this people pleasing

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Speaker 2: tendency which I have, since you know, very recently seen

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Speaker 2: reframed as self abandonment, which I think is a really

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Speaker 2: good reframe, a very true reframe that I had spent

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Speaker 2: so much of my life trying to figure out how

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Speaker 2: to please pretty much my parents, to make their lives

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Speaker 2: easier and also to get noticed in some way, that

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Speaker 2: it just carried over right away to this boyfriend. So

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Speaker 2: it was after I broke up with that college boyfriend

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Speaker 2: that I met my husband. When I was twenty three

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Speaker 2: years old. Stuart and I met at my best friend's

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth birthday party and I was still with my

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Speaker 2: college boyfriend. Stuart was with his girlfriend at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I found Stuart completely obnoxious. You know, I found

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Speaker 2: out leader that he liked me. He wasn't with somebody

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Speaker 2: that he was very serious about. And Stuart had been

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Speaker 2: a stand up comedian he started in high school and

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Speaker 2: did it all through college and let it go after college.

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Speaker 2: But was very funny, but he had this kind of

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Speaker 2: shtick that he would put on and I found out later,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like nerves for him. He was much

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Speaker 2: funnier to me once we were one on one. So

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Speaker 2: my friend told me that he was interested in me,

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Speaker 2: but she didn't tell me that until after I had

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Speaker 2: broken up with my boyfriend about three or four months later,

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Speaker 2: and Stewart started asking my friend about you know, hey,

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Speaker 2: can I ask him Molly out? Can I ask Molly out?

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Speaker 2: And she was like fending him off on my behap,

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Speaker 2: saying like her heart is broken, No, she's not available,

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Speaker 2: you know, you can't ask her out. But he was

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Speaker 2: very persistent. He was so eager to take me out.

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Speaker 2: And this was just this just felt so new. First

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Speaker 2: of all, that I was being pursued like this. I

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Speaker 2: had always felt like my college boyfriend was out of

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Speaker 2: my lee cues, very tall and kind of classic, handsome

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Speaker 2: and spoke French, and he was a great tennis player,

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Speaker 2: just kind of did it all. And Stuart was different.

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Speaker 2: He was balding and wore pleaded pants, and I hadn't

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Speaker 2: really seen him as attractive. And one of the very

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Speaker 2: interesting things that happened on our first date was that

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Speaker 2: I felt super attracted to him. And this is kind

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Speaker 2: of a big realization for me. Also that like I

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Speaker 2: thought I had a type, but I realized I didn't,

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Speaker 2: And he had a way about him that was so engaging,

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Speaker 2: and he listened to me, he found me funny. That

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Speaker 2: might have been the most exciting thing about being with him.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I could be completely myself. He made

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Speaker 2: me feel so comfortable and we just really connected. From

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Speaker 2: word go and a second date that I had with him,

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Speaker 2: I was already thinking, like, I think I might be

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Speaker 2: in love with him. I think I could marry him,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It was it threw me

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Speaker 2: for a loop because my plan was to kind of

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Speaker 2: sew my oats for a little while, because I hadn't

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Speaker 2: ever done that. I'd had this boyfriend for four years,

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Speaker 2: and then Stuart just really swept me off my feet.

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Speaker 2: My mother asked me a question when I was first

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Speaker 2: telling her about Stuart. She said, how do you feel

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Speaker 2: about yourself when you're with him? And I said, I

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Speaker 2: feel amazing and she was like, that's good, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, and that's what I kind of realized,

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Speaker 2: how terrible I'd been feeling about myself with my college boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: How I kept trying to kind of twist myself into

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Speaker 2: Notts to be who he wanted me to be, and

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Speaker 2: I felt like I never quite figured it out. But

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Speaker 2: with Stuart, I felt like, Oh, I can just be

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Speaker 2: me and he's into me, you know, in a way

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Speaker 2: that felt so amazing.

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Speaker 3: Molly and Stuart have a powerful, positive connection. It feels safe,

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Speaker 3: and that safety feels exciting. Just as Mollie feels like

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Speaker 3: she can be fully herself with Stuart, he feels like

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Speaker 3: he can be fully himself with her. So Stuart starts

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Speaker 3: to tell Mollie about some of his sexual fantasies and

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Speaker 3: this becomes the catalyst for their sexual exploration together.

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Speaker 2: Stuart told me that he liked the idea of me

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Speaker 2: with other men, and I, being the pleaser that I am,

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Speaker 2: wanted to oblige, you know. So we tried a few things.

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Speaker 2: We went to a sex club called Le Trapeze in

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Speaker 2: New York City and we went twice. You know, my

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Speaker 2: memory of it, I had to really excavate my memories

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Speaker 2: of it in order to write about it, because I

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Speaker 2: went to consult my journals, which I kept a journal

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Speaker 2: all through my twenties, and so I had the first

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Speaker 2: time we went to the sex club, and I wrote

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Speaker 2: about it as if it had been the best experience

239
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Speaker 2: I had ever had. My memory of it, though when

240
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Speaker 2: I by the time I consulted my journal, was that

241
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Speaker 2: it had been awful. So there was this strange disconnect,

242
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Speaker 2: and I think the truth was actually somewhere in between.

243
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Speaker 2: There were parts of it that I did like, but

244
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Speaker 2: it was mostly like getting the attention and pleasing Stuart.

245
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Speaker 2: I think that I liked and I didn't like the

246
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Speaker 2: anonymity of it at all. I don't know how well

247
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Speaker 2: I verbalized that. At the time I got married when

248
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Speaker 2: I was twenty six, so this must have been when

249
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Speaker 2: I was maybe twenty four. We went to the sex club,

250
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Speaker 2: and then we also before before we got married, had

251
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Speaker 2: a couple threesomes. One of them was with one of

252
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Speaker 2: Stuart's sex's girlfriends who was bisexual. And all of these

253
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Speaker 2: experiences didn't quite do it for me. Like I I

254
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 2: wasn't sure what it was, and I think I did

255
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 2: a lot of convincing myself that I did like things

256
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 2: because Stuart liked them, and I, you know, I hadn't

257
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Speaker 2: parsed out what parts of myself were for me and

258
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 2: what parts of myself were doing things for other people.

259
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Speaker 2: So it was somewhere in the midst of those experiences

260
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 2: because I was saying that I didn't really like the

261
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 2: Three Sums, but there was something about it that was titillating,

262
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 2: and so Stuart was willing to be like, Okay, we

263
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,200
Speaker 2: don't have to do anymore right now, but he was like,

264
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Speaker 2: I think ten years from now, you're gonna want to

265
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 2: sleep with someone else that you know, you really He

266
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 2: knew I had not had money sexual exploration, and he

267
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 2: was I think part of why he was interested in

268
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 2: sex clubs and threesomes. Part of it was his own

269
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 2: you know, arousal titilation, but part of it was also recognizing,

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00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,159
Speaker 2: you know, that we did have great sex and he

271
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,720
Speaker 2: saw me as a sexual being. And he also had

272
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Speaker 2: had a whole decade of experimentation before we met. He's

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Speaker 2: five years older than I am, and he did not

274
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,400
Speaker 2: have lots of long term girlfriends. He had a few,

275
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Speaker 2: but not, you know, never more than like a year

276
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Speaker 2: or so. So I didn't never have that period of exploration,

277
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Speaker 2: and I think Stuart intuited that that would be something

278
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,719
Speaker 2: I would want, and so he said to me, I

279
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,840
Speaker 2: have a feeling you're you're gonna want to sleep with

280
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Speaker 2: somebody else at some point, and just so you know,

281
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Speaker 2: it's okay with me, but I just want you to

282
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Speaker 2: tell me about it, And then telling him about it

283
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,439
Speaker 2: was twofold. It was like he didn't want me to

284
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 2: lie and he wanted to let me know it wasn't

285
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 2: going to be a deal breaker, that the honesty part

286
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 2: is what would keep us solid, not me going away

287
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 2: from the marriage without his participation. I don't know, but

288
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,640
Speaker 2: I didn't think I was ever going to want to.

289
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 2: I said to him, Oh, no, I'm never going to

290
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 2: want to do that. I was probably, you know, twenty

291
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 2: five at the time when he said that. And then

292
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 2: it was right around when I was thirty five that

293
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 2: things changed a little for me.

294
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Speaker 3: We'll be right back in those intervening years, that decade

295
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,399
Speaker 3: between twenty five and thirty five, something else happens. Mollie

296
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 3: and Stewart have two children, sons. The twentieth century feminist

297
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 3: author Kate Chopin once wrote, I would give my life

298
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 3: for my children, but I wouldn't give myself. This quote

299
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 3: resonates with Molly in the blur of early motherhood. She's

300
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 3: begun to feel like something's missing, and that's something is herself.

301
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 2: Because of the fact that I hadn't ever done that

302
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 2: kind of deeper exploratory work before I had kids of

303
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 2: who the HECKU I was. And I think this is

304
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 2: true for a lot of women. I'm sure it was

305
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 2: true for my mother as well. I didn't know what

306
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 2: I was even losing. It almost felt like a failure

307
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 2: to launch, even more than a loss in some ways,

308
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 2: because I had it ever figured myself out. I had

309
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 2: just gone from pleasing one person to pleasing another person

310
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Speaker 2: to trying to be a good mother and a good

311
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 2: wife and a good daughter and a good friend. Like

312
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 2: this is actually something I haven't thought about for a

313
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 2: long time. But there were a number of years where

314
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 2: I would say a prayer every night and I basically

315
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 2: prayed to be guided to being a good and this

316
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 2: was always the order a good mother, a good wife, daughter,

317
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 2: a good friend. And I don't even know exactly when

318
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 2: I stopped doing that, but it was it was years

319
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 2: that I that that's how I kind of went to

320
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 2: sleep every night with that wish on my lip, and

321
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 2: of course, like, what does that mean? What does that

322
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: look like? And there really isn't a lot of room

323
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 2: for selthhood. If that's what you're all of your kind

324
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 2: of emotional energy as being driven towards you know, how

325
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,640
Speaker 2: can I be good in these to these people I love?

326
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 3: Do you think your mother had a similar litany in

327
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 3: her mind about her own goodness?

328
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Speaker 2: I absolutely think that she did, you know, without knowing,

329
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 2: I know that she did. And I think I am

330
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 2: very like my mother. Some of it maybe is genetic,

331
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 2: and some of it may be because I tried so

332
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: hard to kind of model myself after her when I

333
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: was a kid. My mother struck me as kind of

334
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 2: uncomplicated goodness. When I was young, I saw my mother

335
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 2: working really hard always to be a good teacher, a

336
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: good mother, a good wife, and a good person. She

337
00:21:53,840 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: was also very much on a spiritual quest. She was

338
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 2: very drawn to East Asian traditions, and she practiced tai

339
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: chi in our living room. She started to do aiketo.

340
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 2: I started going to the aikito dojo with her when

341
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: I was probably seven or eight years old. Because my

342
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: parents were very busy, it was a good way to

343
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,959
Speaker 2: spend time with them was to attach yourself to one

344
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: of their interests. So I was doing aikito with my

345
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 2: mom and then eventually followed her into mahakari, which was

346
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 2: her spiritual practice that involved giving and receiving divine light.

347
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: I joined when I was ten years old because she

348
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: told me that it would make her the happiest mother

349
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 2: in the world if I would join. My sister would

350
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: never have join, and she did not want to do

351
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: anything my mom was doing. So I, as a good girl,

352
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 2: took it upon myself to be her partner in this

353
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 2: in the family, and so it involved my going to

354
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: a dojo, my taking four day ceremony kind of initiation.

355
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: It was kind of a major activity for me and

356
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: my mother. I quit when I was twelve, and it

357
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: was kind of the first act of rebellion against my

358
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: mother ever I had ever done, to say I didn't

359
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: want to go to mahakari anymore.

360
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 3: And do you know why you didn't want to go anymore?

361
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 2: It was weird, you know. As a middle schooler, it

362
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: was boring too. It was a lot of hours of

363
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: listening to people talk about things that I could understand

364
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: but it wasn't of interest to me, and a lot

365
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: of sitting with your eyes closed, and it was kind

366
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: of a sedentary boring activity that none of my friends had.

367
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: You know it, people looked at me funny if I

368
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 2: talked about it. So one of my secrets. I didn't

369
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 2: want anybody to know that we did this weird thing at.

370
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 3: Home one night when the boys are young, Daniel six

371
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 3: and Nate is a toddler. Stuart gets home a bit

372
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 3: later than expected, and in a moment of fraught chaotic domesticity,

373
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 3: Mollie feels trapped and busts out. She leaves the house

374
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 3: says she's going out to get some air Stuart can

375
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: take over. Out on the street in Brooklyn, she runs

376
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 3: into an old work colleague, Kayla, who's on her way

377
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: to a bar to meet some friends. Kayla invites Molly

378
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 3: to tag along. Mollie doesn't have her phone or her wallet,

379
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: but Kayla convinces her to come anyway. She'll buy her

380
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 3: a glass of wine.

381
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: It was all kind of surrealed, all of a sudden,

382
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: I have been, you know, kind of wrapped up in

383
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: the life of a single person. You know, this friend

384
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: of mine pulled me into this, into this other world.

385
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: It felt like because I had moved to Brooklyn ten

386
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: days before my first child was born, I had never

387
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: been single in Brooklyn. I had lived on the Upper

388
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: West Side for five years prior, and that's where Stuart

389
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: and I lived before we had kids. So there's this

390
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: bar that was kind of famous, the Gate, and I'd

391
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 2: walked by it a bunch of times, but I'd go

392
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: in with her and it just felt so good for

393
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: one to just be in this bar atmosphere that I

394
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 2: hadn't really allowed myself to do since having kids then

395
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: six years at that point. And there was a guy there,

396
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: one of her friends who I it was like I

397
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 2: got hit by like a lightning bolt of desire and

398
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: it shocked me. You know. It's that kind of like

399
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: butterflies in the stomach, but it's also sort in your

400
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: growing kind of feeling like oh my, you know. And

401
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: I couldn't have felt less sexy. When I walked out

402
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: of the house, right, I was literally in like jeans

403
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: and a hoodie, which is kind of my mom uniform,

404
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: not wearing makeup, nothing. But this guy and I like

405
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: we hit it off, you know, we were we had

406
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 2: banter and it was like fun, flirtatious and he ended

407
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: up buying my beer and at the end of this night,

408
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: you know, we exchanged numbers like old school style. I mean,

409
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 2: it was two thousand and eight, so I had a phone,

410
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: but I had it wasn't the kind of thing where

411
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: you would always even remember to bring your phone, so

412
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: I hadn't brought my phone with me, so it's like

413
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: it was literally like phone number on a on a

414
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: napkin kind of style. And then I went home. You know,

415
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 2: I was still kind of buzzing from this experience. When

416
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: I walked into the living room and saw the mess

417
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: of the kids and went in and checked on them.

418
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: It was kind of like it was kind of like, Okay,

419
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: now you're back in your real life. You know, that

420
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: was fun, but this is real life. And my husband

421
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 2: Stuart had seen my phone had a text, and you know,

422
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: we didn't There's nothing that I was ever hiding from him.

423
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: We could look at each other's phones without feeling like

424
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: we were snooping. So he told me, you know, this

425
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: guy Matt does texted you. I was like, what right?

426
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: And it became clear as we're talking about it that

427
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: Stuart knew that Matt was into me and was encouraging

428
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 2: me to act on this. And this was when I

429
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: kind of remembered that conversation we had had before we

430
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: got engaged where started said, if you ever went asleep

431
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: with somebody, just let me know. And here I was

432
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 2: in this moment, and it what was fascinating in retrospect

433
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 2: the moment, like I felt terrified, and there's something so

434
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: fascinating about that because I here I was, I had

435
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: had this fun flirtation. My husband was saying, go for it,

436
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: and my initial response was just terror. And I'm you know,

437
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: I can I can try to analyze myself from the

438
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: distance of sixteen years later why that was. But I

439
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: think it was just it was so unknown. It was

440
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: like this piece of me was coming to life that

441
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: I didn't even know she was there.

442
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: You know.

443
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: It was like having a like hosting another spirit or something.

444
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: It just felt so strange, and so I also didn't

445
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: know how on earth this new being within me could

446
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: live side by side with the mother in me. You know,

447
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: I didn't know how that was possible, and it felt

448
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 2: like it felt very dangerous. It felt like this is

449
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: not an itch you should scratch. But at the same time,

450
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: it was a really strong itch. And that's kind of

451
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: where it all began.

452
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: Molly and Matt engage in a brief, sporadic flirtation, but

453
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 3: soon she shuts it down. That is, she shuts down

454
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: her communication with Matt. The feeling she's had of desire, curiosity,

455
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: and connection that isn't shutting down. It lingers, it haunts her.

456
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: But she's not sure what to do with this, so

457
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 3: she does nothing. It's an unnameable secret she's keeping from herself.

458
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: But then one day she gets an invitation to a

459
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 3: karaoke party and Matt's name is on the guest list.

460
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: At the karaoke party, I saw mad again and we

461
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: ended up at the end of the night alone in

462
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: a karaoke room and we sang a song together and

463
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: he had he was standing behind me with his hands

464
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: on my hips. He was much taller, and it's like

465
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: chin on my head and it was just electric. It

466
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: wasn't you know, in terms of transgression. I mean he

467
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: he had a girlfriend, so it was definitely we're not

468
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: supposed to touch other people when we are in a relationship.

469
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: Like that is the beginning or maybe even several steps

470
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: along the line of what I think in our society

471
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: we call cheating, right, Like even like going out for

472
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,239
Speaker 2: a drink could be considered cheating too, and we had

473
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: done that one early on and that's when I shut

474
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: it down. But there was a touch now that was

475
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: so impossible for me to ignore, and a moment where

476
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: I could have kissed him and I didn't. So when

477
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: I went back home that night Stuart, I had not

478
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: told Stuart. This is also, you know, like kind of

479
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: like the mini secret. I had not told Stuart that

480
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: Matt was going to be at this party, but Stuart

481
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: had figured it out, so when I confessed to him,

482
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: he was not at all surprised that it wasn't It

483
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: wasn't even something I needed to confess. That was part

484
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: of what was confusing to me is what did I

485
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: need to tell him and what did I not need

486
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: to tell him? In terms of the secret kept from myself,

487
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: one of the things that it took me a long

488
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: time to admit to myself is that I was doing

489
00:31:54,840 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: this for me, That my attraction to Matt and my

490
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: desire for him was not about my turning Stuart on.

491
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: Even though I knew that Stuart got turned on by

492
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: the idea of me with other guys. It was really

493
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: becoming clear to me that I didn't want to tell

494
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: him detailed I didn't want to tell Stuart details about

495
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: what had happened with Matt because that felt like it

496
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: was cheapening it. It felt like it wasn't mine anymore.

497
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: And this was one of the things that created a

498
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: lot of inner conflict for me, because here I was,

499
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: I had my husband's permission as long as I told

500
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: him everything, but I didn't want to tell him everything.

501
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: So it did feel like a little part of me

502
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: was still cheating even though I had his whole permission,

503
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: and that was something we had to navigate as we

504
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: moved forward.

505
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: This is pretty confusing stuff. It's no wonder that Mollie

506
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: needs help navigating all her fears, including or perhaps especially,

507
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: the feelings she doesn't understand. So she starts therapy, and

508
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: soon her therapist helps her to identify some of the

509
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 3: secrets she's keeping from herself. Together with her therapist, Mollie

510
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 3: begins to realize that her interior life, her sense of

511
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: herself and her own worth, has been like a bucket

512
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 3: with a hole in it. No matter how full that

513
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: bucket becomes, it will continue to leak and leak. That

514
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: metaphorical bucket becomes part of Molly's inner construct.

515
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: I think the way we were kind of talking about

516
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: it is how I could fill myself up. Actually I

517
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: wasn't filling myself up. I could let others fill me up.

518
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: Stewart or my children could make me feel good and

519
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: fill me with their love, but somehow it would leak

520
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: out the bottom and my bucket would end up again.

521
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: So it's at this point that you start feeling compelled

522
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: to understand more about your parents' marriage and what really

523
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: went on in that idealized perfect you know, Ozzie and

524
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: Harriet existence. Yeah, and you go to your mother and

525
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: I guess you knew, or on some level you knew

526
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 3: that your mother had had an affair.

527
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I was twenty eight, so I had

528
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: already been married for a couple of years, but not

529
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: yet a mother, my aunt, my mother's older sister, told

530
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: me that she had had an affair, and I was shocked.

531
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: I was pretty sure I knew who it was because

532
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 2: my mother's best friend when I was a kid, Jim,

533
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 2: seemed like a very strong candidate, and and my mother

534
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: had both joined Mahakari at around the same time. They

535
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: kind of were on there a spiritual quest together, and

536
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 2: both landed at Mahakari around the same time. It's my

537
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: memory of how it had happened. But then it took

538
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: me a year to actually even confront my mother about

539
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: the affair, as my aunt had called it, and my

540
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: mother also called it an affair. It was right after

541
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: my older son, Daniel was born, and Stuart's father was

542
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 2: in the hospital dying, and my mother came to help,

543
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: and it was you know, I think it almost had

544
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 2: to get to to a kind of critical stage where

545
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: life and death were kind of immediate. I didn't know

546
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: how to ask my mother this question. So here I

547
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 2: am a brand new mother. I've been hanging on to

548
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: this knowledge for a year that my mother had an affair.

549
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: And I just told her, I said, you know, I

550
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: know about your affair with Jim, like does dad know?

551
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: And she said it was your father's idea. And this

552
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: was after Stuart and I had done some of our explorations,

553
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: you know, the sex party and the three and things

554
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 2: like that. This was years before or six years before

555
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 2: I met Matt. So that conversation that I had with

556
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: my mother when she told me it was my dad's

557
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: idea to have an affair, we didn't go much further.

558
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: Than that, she just kind of mumbled something about, you know,

559
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: while I was a virgin when we got married, your

560
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 2: father thought it would give me confidence. And I was

561
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: in that new mom brain hays at my father in

562
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: law was dying, So it's all kind of cloudy what

563
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: that conversation was like, but I know it ended and

564
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: I did not bring it up again until I was

565
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: kind of in the throes of what was going on

566
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: with me and Matt, and that's when in therapy, my

567
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: therapist was like, I think you need to talk to

568
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: your mother about this, because there was such a clear,

569
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: you know, through line between her story and my story,

570
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: and it was something I was really nervous to talk

571
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 2: to her about.

572
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

573
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: With Stuart's consent, his words are go for it, Molly

574
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 3: and Matt begin a relationship. Stuart would also like to

575
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: embark on his own extracurricular exploration, so at this point

576
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 3: they decide to open their marriage. Mollie agrees to the arrangement,

577
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 3: but it sets off an intense emotional experience for her.

578
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: During this time, she wishes even more than before that

579
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: she could muster the courage to talk about all this

580
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 3: with her mother.

581
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: Stuart slept with an ex girlfriend, was the first person

582
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: he slept with outside of the marriage with my permission.

583
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: I wasn't nearly as enthusiastic about him doing it as

584
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: he was about me doing it. But I was visiting

585
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 2: my parents with the kids the weekend that it happened

586
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: with Stuart, and I knew it was probably going to

587
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: happen that weekend, and I was in agony the whole weekend,

588
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: and I wanted to talk to my mother, but I

589
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: couldn't bring myself to do it. And that's one of

590
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: the really interesting things I think that here I am.

591
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: I know that my mother has had this situation and

592
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: it's similar to my situation, But why can't I talk

593
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 2: to her about it? And I really do think there

594
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: was shame for both of us. I didn't feel like

595
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: she ever really gave herself full permission to do to

596
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: be a sexual person. I feel like she kept it

597
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: under wraps because she didn't want anybody to know. My

598
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: father knew, and you know, she had told her older

599
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: sister and clearly, you know, definitely regretted it once your

600
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: sister had flapped it to me, And I think she

601
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: felt like it would also be misunderstood and seen as

602
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: maybe more salacious than it really was, or she didn't

603
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: want to be seen as this, you know, kind of

604
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: a sexual deviant. And I think I carried a lot

605
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: of that same shame that there was even though it

606
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: was something my mother had done, that there was something

607
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 2: just unsavory about it, and I was afraid to talk

608
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: about it. I didn't know how to talk about it.

609
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: You know, my relationship with Matt, we could even call

610
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: it a relationship as really really spased out over several years.

611
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't like this was a constant weekly event. It

612
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: was kind of every six months or so we would

613
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: kind of hook up. But it was very fraught with drama.

614
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 3: And there was a secret was in that as well,

615
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 3: which is that you were keeping the secret from Matt,

616
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 3: which was that Stuart was in full more than knowledge.

617
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 3: Stuart was almost a participant in that relationship, and that

618
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: you would share a lot of what went on with

619
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 3: Matt with Stuart and Stuart wanted you to, and it

620
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: turned Stuart on, and so it was part of your marriage.

621
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: And Matt also had a girlfriend who he was quote

622
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 3: unquote cheating on, who knew nothing about this, and he

623
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 3: assumed that the same was true for you with your husband.

624
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I, you know, the fact that Stuart

625
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: knew about what I was doing, I felt would I

626
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: was afraid to tell Matt that too, because I thought

627
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: there would be I thought he would find it really weird,

628
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: you know. And it's so interesting now, Danny, that you know,

629
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: polyamory and ethical non monogamy are kind of coming away

630
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: from the fringes, because now it would be unthinkable to

631
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: me that I wouldn't be straightforward with somebody about being

632
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: in an open marriage. But at the time I didn't

633
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: even want to. I didn't know even to use that language.

634
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: It still felt deviant and strange and therefore something to

635
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: be a little ashamed of.

636
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: Time and time again we see how secrecy and shame

637
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: can lead to some kind of crisis or conflagration. And

638
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 3: this is true of Molly and Matt's relationship, which spectacularly

639
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: flames out this by way of an impulsive and inflammatory

640
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 3: text message. Of all things.

641
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: Stuart had left so that I could invite Matt over to,

642
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: you know, have a little tryst in our guest room,

643
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: and I ended up running to the kitchen to get

644
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: some water and to quickly text Stuart that Matt was there,

645
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: and I wanted to reassure Stuart, so I wrote him.

646
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: Still it still kind of gives me a little wave

647
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 2: of nausea to think about it, I texted, but don't worry,

648
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: he has nothing on you as a lover. And I

649
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: accidentally sent that text to Matt, not to Stuart. So yeah,

650
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 2: that's how Matt found out that Stuart knew and he

651
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: knew everything, and it did kind of that was the

652
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: And for me and Matt, there's so many secrets embedded

653
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: in that that I was keeping the secret of my

654
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: open marriage from the man I was being intimate with,

655
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: And that tells you right there how limited my intimacy

656
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: was outside of my marriage at that point. And the

657
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: story of More is kind of the story of me

658
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 2: opening myself up more and more and more in part

659
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: of it the exposure of the secrets or the kind

660
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: of crushing of the secretive part of what this was.

661
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 2: And it kind of culminates, of course, in the fact

662
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: that I've written a book about it. Now now there's

663
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: no more secrets for anybody, whether they wanted to keep

664
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: them or not.

665
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it strikes me so much that your

666
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 3: story is more about the sort of eradicating of the

667
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 3: interior secrets. It's the interior secrets of the things that

668
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 3: you know we keep secret from ourselves become faceable by us.

669
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: Then it almost is inevitable that the outward facing secrets

670
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: are going to take care of themselves, because the only

671
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 3: reason why they're even there is because we don't really

672
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 3: know what's driving us. I mean, one of my favorite

673
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 3: quotes is from Carl Jung, and he wrote, until you

674
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life, and

675
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 3: you will call it fate. At the end of Molly's

676
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: relationship with Matt, she decides on a new path. She

677
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 3: joins a dating app for married people called Ashley Madison.

678
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 3: Even the logo for the app itself advertises its commitment

679
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 3: to secrecy the lower half of a woman's face one

680
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 3: finger pressed to her lips. This leads Molly into several relationships,

681
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 3: increasingly pressing against an edge, it all becomes seedier, rougher,

682
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 3: pushing further and further away from her otherwise bourgeois life

683
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: as a wife and mom.

684
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: This was me trying to do a couple of things.

685
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: I think, for one, I was really in escape mode,

686
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: I think escaping from my role as a mother and

687
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: trying to have an adventure that was just for me.

688
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: I think it was also me not realizing and this

689
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: is you know again about the unconscious or the conscious

690
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: staying unconscious. I think I was trying to get my

691
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: bucket filled. I think it was partly about me aging.

692
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: I was in my early forties at this time, and

693
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: as women were often told that once we're forty, were

694
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: kind of done, you know, like nobody's going to value

695
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: us or find us attractive anymore, and we're going to

696
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: dry up and it, you know, just the beginning of

697
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: the end. And so part of me felt like, oh,

698
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: if I'm ever going to have like a crazy sexual escapade,

699
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: i'd better do it now. I feel like I was

700
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 2: trying to live fully. You know. There's a line at

701
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: one point where I've had a kind of a very

702
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: what I consider now a very sad sexual experience at

703
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 2: the Sleep No More show, and I'm like, ah, I'm

704
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: really living. You know. It's like like I was thinking

705
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: that it had to be a seen from some sort

706
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: of showtime soft porn movie in order for it to

707
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: be exciting and liberating, right, I had. I just had

708
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 2: this really messed up idea of what sexual liberation looked like.

709
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: I thought I was being sexually liberated, but I was

710
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 2: just working myself deeper into the layer somehow of trying

711
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: to please and trying to seek myself through pleasing others.

712
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: It's just not how it works. And thank god I

713
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: was in therapy, or I never would have figured it out.

714
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 3: And through the gaze of others, right like through new

715
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 3: eyes looking at you and saying you're beautiful, you know,

716
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 3: you're sexy, You're perfect. That is a kind of briefly

717
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 3: bucket filling feeling, but there is that hole underneath.

718
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. It was a bit of a dopamine hit.

719
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: It wasn't even the sex. It was the validation. I

720
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: was getting male validation. That it felt like a little

721
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: dopamine hit every time. But then the low would get

722
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: a little lower, you know, the highs weren't quite as

723
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: high and the lows were much lower. And ultimately it

724
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: took quite a few bad relationships, although I don't actually

725
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: have regrets about any of them, because I feel like

726
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: they all helped me to figure myself out in some way,

727
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: shape or form. But yeah, I eventually came to some

728
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: understandings through therapy, largely of what it was that I

729
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 2: was doing and what it was I needed to change.

730
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: And I'm realizing I wanted Stewart to fill me up,

731
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: or I wanted my kids to fill me up, and

732
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 2: when they didn't, I went out looking for someone else

733
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: to fill me up. But what I was discovering is

734
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: that I has to fill myself up.

735
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: It's during this Ashley Madison period that Mollie's on a

736
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: business trip and when her plane lands, a cascade of

737
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 3: text messages appear. It's her son, Daniel, who's thirteen at

738
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 3: the time. Daniel is in a panic. His laptop had died,

739
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: so he went to grab his dad's and on Stewart's laptop,

740
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 3: he saw a shocking window open his dad's Okay Cupid profile.

741
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 3: His immediate thought is that his dad must be cheating

742
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:11,479
Speaker 3: on his mom.

743
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 2: What's interesting is that I wasn't actually sure in that

744
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: moment what would be worse. What would be worse. Would

745
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 2: it be worse for Daniel to think his father was

746
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: cheating on me, or for Daniel to know that we

747
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: had an open marriage and I was also having sex

748
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: with other men. You know, there was no precedent in

749
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: my own family for this. My mother had never told me,

750
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: and I still at that stage, had never spoken to

751
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: my father about it. But yeah, it was kind of

752
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 2: a moment of my mom's self and my you know

753
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 2: what I had partitioned off as my sexual self meeting

754
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: in that moment in the airport, and it felt calamitous.

755
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: It felt like the worst possible thing. But what's interesting

756
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 2: is that when what you think is the worst possible

757
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: thing happens, it actually frees you up quite a bit.

758
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: So in that moment I was able to you know,

759
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: I don't think I did it very gracefully. I did

760
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, I can tell him what this is,

761
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: and I can tell him honestly why he doesn't have

762
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: to worry. And there was something very freeing and comforting

763
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 2: to myself about that, even though I continued to worry

764
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 2: for years about how much I had kind of screwed

765
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: Daniel up as a result. But I did feel like

766
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: I can tell him honestly, like, don't worry, honey. Dad

767
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: and I really love each other and we do tell

768
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: each other everything. And this doesn't mean that anything in

769
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: your world is going to change. And I could say

770
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 2: that and mean it and know it. That our marriage

771
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: has actually, you know, just gotten stronger and stronger as

772
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: we've kind of brought more of our inner truths to

773
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 2: the light instead of keeping them in the shadows. So

774
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 2: we are in a strong place. And I was able

775
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: to tell Daniel at that time, which is now, I

776
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 2: can't believe it, but nine years ago, that everything is

777
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 2: really okay and you don't need to worry. There's nothing

778
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 2: you have to worry about here, and to mean it.

779
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: So it was hard, and it was hard for me

780
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: to feel like I had become something other in his eyes.

781
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 2: But I realized too how important it is. It's occurred

782
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: to me more as I was right the book, and

783
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 2: as the book has kind of entered the world, how

784
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: important it is to be your authentic self, not and

785
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 2: I don't mean a self without boundaries or privacy, because

786
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: boundaries and privacy are still important, very important, I think

787
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 2: between parents and children. But I also think the fact

788
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: that my mother never let me see any part of

789
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 2: herself that wasn't kind of part of this Ozzie and

790
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 2: Harriet image, this perfect mom image, because I never saw that.

791
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was possible for myself and although

792
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: I have sons, I still think it's so important for

793
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: boys to see their mothers being their full, authentic self,

794
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: so they know when they're looking for partners and try

795
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: to be a good partner, that they are meeting the

796
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 2: women that come into their lives as whole people who

797
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: are not gonna, you know, who you're not going to

798
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: ask to shelve a part of them selves just because

799
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 2: they're also gonna, you know, maybe start a family. I

800
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 2: feel like that happens so often that we think that

801
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: we're done being ourselves as mothers, and we're not, and

802
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be. You know, there's too much of life

803
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: left and too much that mature women have to give

804
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 2: to the world for us to just shut ourselves down.

805
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 3: Well, it's so interesting. I mean, one of the thoughts

806
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 3: that I've had many times in recent years is that

807
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 3: once you're a parent, you're a parent forever. But the

808
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 3: years of active parenting of kids under your roof are actually,

809
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: if things go according to plan, one of the shorter

810
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: chapters in a long adult life. You know, yes, there

811
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: are the years before children, and there are the many

812
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 3: years once children have moved into their young adult lives,

813
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 3: and we lose sight of that, or the years of

814
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: being parents are ones that we're supposed to feel nostalgic for.

815
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 3: We're supposed to yearn for before we have them, and

816
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,399
Speaker 3: then we're supposed to feel nostalgic for, like the best

817
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 3: years are behind us. And it's just something that's really

818
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 3: true in our culture that I think, you know, your

819
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 3: story speaks to in a really really interesting way.

820
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree that this is true.

821
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 3: Molly's done pushing against the edges of the bucket. She

822
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 3: deletes her Ashley Madison account, now only interested in the

823
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 3: honest version of open marriage, the kind where true communication

824
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:45,479
Speaker 3: being seen, being heard, being understood in a deep way

825
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 3: is the foundation for the erotic. It's during this time

826
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 3: that she meets Scott. She goes out on a date

827
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 3: with Scott and is struck by the realization that the

828
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 3: safety she feels with him to be herself, to be valued,

829
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 3: for her true self, not to be performing putting on

830
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 3: an act. It reminds her of something. It reminds her

831
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: of how she felt when she first met Stuart. One

832
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 3: night after she's been with Scott, Molly comes home, but

833
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 3: before she heads inside, she sees Stuart through a lit

834
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 3: window of their house. He's in his first floor recording

835
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: studio doing his work, and it's almost like she's seeing

836
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 3: her husband and her marriage with fresh eyes. She's reminded

837
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 3: of why she is in love with Stuart, why this

838
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 3: man is her husband. As time goes on, Scott wants more,

839
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 3: his own marriage implodes, and what he really wants, ironically,

840
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 3: is monogamy. He asks Molly if she's ever going to

841
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 3: leave Stuart, and the answer is an emphatic no. Molly

842
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 3: is certain that the answer will forever be an emphatic no,

843
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 3: no matter what either of them does, they are in

844
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: this together.

845
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: That was a really significant moment for me because it

846
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 2: felt for the first time, if I'm forced to choose

847
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: between Stewart and anybody, the answer is going to be Stuart.

848
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: I want Stuart. Stuart is my husband forever, not because

849
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,439
Speaker 2: we're stuck, but because we're choosing each other. And that's

850
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: part of what has made our relationship so strong, is

851
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 2: that we both choose each other over and over and

852
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 2: over again, and we have reason to choose each other.

853
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: And it's like, I just don't see that ever ever changing.

854
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 2: But the other thing I was choosing in that moment

855
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 2: was I was realizing I was really choosing polyamory. That

856
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 2: experience of loving Scott and having it make me love

857
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: Stuart more not less. I didn't know that was possible.

858
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 2: One of our rules early on was no falling in love,

859
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 2: like you can go have sex with other people, but

860
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 2: make sure you don't fall in love with anyone else,

861
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 2: because that seemed really dangerous to me. And my relationship

862
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 2: with Scott taught me not only is it possible, but

863
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: it's magical to love more than one person. This is

864
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 2: about ten years into my open marriage journey that I

865
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: really had that experience. But now I don't settle for

866
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: anything less than that. I don't want to have casual sex.

867
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: I can only have now connected sex and relationships that

868
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: are loving. So that was a real moment for me,

869
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 2: and I think that's the real arc for me in

870
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 2: all of this. It was me coming home to myself

871
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: and coming home to all the parts of myself that

872
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: I had kept secret. And I think it's the one

873
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: aspect of womanhood that we are taught to be ashamed

874
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 2: of our sexuality. I just found out that the word

875
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 2: pudendum comes from the Latin to be ashamed of, which

876
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 2: was shocking to me. You know, I quote Audre Lord,

877
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: the erotic is the nurturer of all our deepest knowledge.

878
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 2: And when we don't allow or encourage women to explore

879
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: their own erotic selves, I feel like we cut off

880
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 2: a piece of ourselves. And especially when we're taught that

881
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: it's something that belongs to our husband or that we

882
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: have to just reject because it conflicts with motherhood. You

883
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 2: can't be a sexual person and a mother. I feel

884
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 2: like it's really to our detriment. And I feel like

885
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 2: one of my biggest secrets was, oh, I am a

886
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 2: sexual being that is evolving throughout life. That my sexuality,

887
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 2: if it stayed the same as it was when I

888
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 2: was twenty three when I first met my husband, that

889
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: would be a tragedy. It's through I think, for me anyway,

890
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: and the erotic self that I have come to know,

891
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 2: my fullest, multifaceted self. I think jealousy is a fear

892
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: that there won't be enough for me, or that I'm

893
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 2: not enough, that if he loves someone else, there will

894
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: be less love for me. And I have found first

895
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 2: and foremost that that just isn't true. I have found

896
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: that our love has deepened as we've allowed ourselves to

897
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: love other people that we have less fear and less

898
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 2: need to guard what the other one might be getting

899
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 2: somewhere else. And I think there's a secretive aspect to

900
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: this too that we've had to let go of. There

901
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: was the don't fall in love rule at another point

902
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: I also briefly tried, and I think a lot of

903
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 2: people who open their marriages try this for a time

904
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 2: at least, a don't ask, don't tell kind of policy

905
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: where we say, you know, I would rather you keep

906
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: a secret from me. Is basically what we're saying, I

907
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 2: would rather not know the truth because the truth is

908
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: too painful. That's kind of what the message is behind

909
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 2: don't tell me what you're doing. And I found myself

910
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 2: actually getting angry with Stuart when he wasn't lying to

911
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 2: me well enough, when he didn't keep his secrets well enough.

912
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 2: And so where we've evolved at this stage is that

913
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: you can tell me anything, but we don't have to

914
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 2: tell each other everything. We both allow for the other

915
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: to have things that are our own, because I think

916
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: we just have such a strong trust that we do

917
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 2: love each other and we are committed to each other.

918
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: And if you have something that you want to keep

919
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 2: to yourself. It's okay, but we also feel I also

920
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 2: really strongly feel that if Stuart tells me something and

921
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 2: it sparks a feeling in me, that doesn't mean he

922
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 2: shouldn't have told me. It means I'm having a feeling

923
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 2: and I might need help holding it. So that if

924
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 2: he tells me that he went out with someone new

925
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: and they were just hilarious and we're cracking him up,

926
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: that often, you know, sparks some jealousy in me, that like,

927
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 2: oh no, that means that he thinks she's funnier than

928
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 2: I am, or I'm not you know, his favorite, or

929
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 2: you know, all these kinds of insecurities and fears and all.

930
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 2: What I'm really asking for is, can you reassure me?

931
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 2: Can you tell me that you love me again? Can

932
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 2: you spend time with me, give me some attention. You know,

933
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 2: it used to be like maybe a four hour conversation

934
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 2: that involves a lot of my crying and things like that.

935
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: I feel like we're getting to a point now where

936
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 2: it's much more like I can ask for what I

937
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 2: need more quickly and he can readily give it, and

938
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 2: so then I just feel taken care of then I

939
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 2: feel okay, and it's so much It's so much healthier

940
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: and healing to be able to do that as opposed

941
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 2: to saying no, don't tell me you know anything that

942
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 2: might make me feel something I don't want to feel.

943
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: If instead we let ourselves share freely and then help

944
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 2: each other hold the feelings that arise, that's how you

945
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 2: work through tough feelings and kind of get to the

946
01:02:50,080 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 2: magical place on the other side.

947
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 3: Family Secret is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is

948
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 3: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.

949
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 3: If you have a family secret you'd like to share,

950
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 3: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear

951
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 3: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight

952
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 3: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also

953
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd

954
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 3: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast,

955
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 3: check out my memoir Inheritance.

956
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

957
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.