1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio Today. 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court unanimously preserved access to the abortion pill 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: that was used in nearly two thirds of all abortions 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: in the country last year. In the court's first abortion 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: decision since conservative justices overturned Roe v. Wade two years ago. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: The justices reversed a federal appeals Court ruling that would 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: have barred mail order prescriptions from mifipristone across the country. 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: The ruling was based on a procedural issue called standing finding. 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: The challengers in the case, anti abortion doctors and medical groups, 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: failed to show they were injured by the FDA's approval 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: of the medication. It was the issue we heard voiced 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: by justices across the ideological spectrum during oral arguments, from 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: liberal Katanji Brown Jackson to conservative Brett Kavanaugh, who wrote 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: Today's who wrote today's opinion. 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: I mean, it makes perfect sense for the individual doctors 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: to seek an exemption, but as I understand it, they 17 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: already have that, and so what they're asking for here 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 2: is that in order to prevent them from possibly ever 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: having to do these kinds of procedures, everyone else should 20 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: be prevented from getting access to this medication. 21 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 3: Just to confirm understanding issue. 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 4: Under federal law, no doctors can be. 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 5: Forced against their consciences to perform or assist in an abortion. 24 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 4: Correct. 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: But the court didn't even address the FDA's decision to 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: loosen the restrictions on MiFi pristone. So this decision doesn't 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: mean that the drug is safe from future legal attacks. 28 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: Joining me is an expert in reproductive healthcare rights. Mary Ziegler, 29 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: a professor at UC Davis Law School. Mary, did this decision, 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: this unanimous decision come as any surprise after the oral arguments. 31 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 5: I mean, it was a little bit of a surprise 32 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 5: that it was unanimous, But I think after oral argument 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 5: it was pretty clear that the plaineiffs were in trouble 34 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 5: here on standing grounds, and their standing arguments were really weak, 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 5: you know, from the outset. So in that sense, it 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 5: wasn't a surprise. 37 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: And tell us how the court came to its decision 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: on standing. 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 5: Well, the court had three different grounds for deciding the 40 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 5: planeiffs didn't have standing. The planeiffs argued that they had 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 5: standing because they could face conscience based injuries if patients 42 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 5: had complications for with the Pristone and ended up in 43 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 5: the emergency room where they were practicing. They argued that 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 5: they would suffer economic harms potentially if forced to treat patients. 45 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 5: And finally, they argued that their group, their association, suffered 46 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 5: harms because it was forced to divert resources that could 47 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 5: have been used for other pro life or anti worsion 48 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 5: work to oppose Mithi Pristone, and the Supreme Court rejected 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 5: all three of those claims. On the conscience point, this 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 5: is said, essentially, there are lots of federal laws to 51 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 5: protect conscience, so there's no real threat of injury here. 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 5: On the claims about economic harm, the course of this 53 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 5: is just way, way too broad, almost to the point 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 5: of ridiculousness. They said. If this was true as a 55 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 5: theory of standing, firefighters could sue to object to relax 56 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 5: building codes, and teachers and border states could sue to 57 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 5: challenge immigration policies, this would be a Pandora's box. And finally, 58 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 5: on associational standing right the idea that the association was 59 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 5: diverting resources, the Court emphasized that this would be essentially 60 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 5: allowing organizations to manufacture standing by spending money to gather 61 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 5: information and advocate against an action. So all three of 62 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 5: those standing claims failed. But again they were specific to 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 5: these parties. So it doesn't mean that these claims will 64 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 5: necessarily go away forever, just that these plaintiffs were unable 65 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 5: to bring them. 66 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, on the last page of the paion, 67 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: just as Kavanaugh wrote, quote, it is not clear that 68 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: no one else would have standing to challenge the FDA's 69 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: relaxed regulation of mifipristone, and the Texas judge below has 70 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:17,119 Speaker 1: allowed the states of Idaho, Kansas, and Missouri to join 71 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: the case at the district court level to help press 72 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: the same claims against the FDA. So that's still pending. 73 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 5: Yes, So there are these other plaintiffs in the district 74 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 5: court who had initially tried to intervene in the Supreme 75 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 5: Court proceedings and were turned away, but who are proceeding 76 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 5: through the lower courts arguing that they understanding that these 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 5: plaintiffs lacked. And it's worth emphasizing too, that isn't necessarily 78 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 5: the end of it either. There are some local counties 79 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 5: and cities and what's called the Sanctuary City for the 80 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 5: Unborn movement that have been mulling bringing suits on the 81 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 5: same basis and asserting they have standing. So I think 82 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 5: we're seeing already some plaintiffs in lower court trying to 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 5: say they can bring these claims, and they might be 84 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 5: the only ones, and. 85 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court can almost get pushed to hear these cases. 86 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: For example, in this case, you have the most conservative 87 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: circuit in the country, the Fifth Circuit, pushing the legal 88 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: envelope and finding that these plaintiffs have standing to sue, 89 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: and then the Supreme Court has to respond and. 90 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 5: Push back exactly right. And it doesn't necessarily mean that 91 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 5: those plaintiffs will succeed either, right, I mean, they might 92 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 5: not have standing either. But I think all we know 93 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 5: after today is that the Supreme Court is kicking the 94 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 5: can down the road. They haven't resolved many of these 95 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 5: claims permanently, and. 96 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: The Court stop short way short of affirming the FDA's 97 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: decisions to expand access to mifipristone. I mean, they didn't 98 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: consider the merits at all in the opinion, right. 99 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 5: I mean, if anything, the Court seems sympathetic to the 100 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 5: idea that people have conscience based objections to abortion. The 101 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 5: Court seem to be sympathetic to those and the Court 102 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 5: didn't at all affirm the logic of the FDA's decision 103 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 5: making didn't say anything one way or another about the 104 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 5: plaintiff's theory that the Comstock Act operated as if the facto. 105 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: Ban on abortion. 106 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 5: So we got really no insight, especially no insights that 107 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 5: would be reassuring to the Biden administration about what the 108 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 5: Court thinks about those things. 109 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: Just as Kavanaugh wrote, the plaintiffs have sincere legal, moral, ideological, 110 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: and policy objections to elective abortion and to the FDA's 111 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: relaxed regulation of mifipristone. That language is a little troubling, 112 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: isn't it. 113 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 5: I agree, I mean, and I think it signals that 114 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,119 Speaker 5: we haven't seen the end of this by a long shot. 115 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: And there's some irony in the fact that Kavanaugh wrote 116 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: a concurring opinion in the Dobbs case which overturned the 117 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: constitutional right to abortion, and he said, basically, the abortion 118 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: issue is now up to the states. We're done with it. 119 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody paying attention really 120 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 5: believed that. But it's ironic, of course, that the Court 121 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 5: has two abortion decisions in one term. I mean, this 122 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 5: isn't even the last we've heard from this particular term 123 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 5: on abortion, which is extraordinary. So this is not, you know, 124 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 5: not even the end of what we're hearing from the 125 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 5: justices right now, much less, you know, for the longer term. 126 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: Mary, Does this mean that women in every state can 127 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: get mifa pristone or is it still illegal in states 128 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: that have bands on abortion? 129 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 5: It's still illegal. This ruling doesn't change the status quo. 130 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 5: So if a state has prohibited mithrapristone, it's still prohibited 131 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 5: in the state. If a state has access to mifhra 132 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 5: pristone or provides that access, the drug is still available. 133 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 5: So it isn't underlining any state law one way or another. 134 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: You mentioned the second abortion case that's yet to be 135 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: decided over Idaho's strict abortion ban. 136 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 5: Tell us about that that case involves emergency access to abortion. 137 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 5: The Biden administration has argued that a federal law called 138 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 5: the Emergency Medical Treatment in Labor Act Trump's state bans 139 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 5: when those bands wouldn't allow access to abortion for certain 140 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 5: medical emergencies that the federal law would require. Idaho, the 141 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 5: state of Oide administration took to court. Has responded that 142 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 5: the amtala does nothing of the sort, and that the 143 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 5: question is either left to the states, or even that 144 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 5: Imtala offers some protection for the unborn child as Idaho, 145 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 5: what's it pointing to language in the statue, So that 146 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 5: ruling remains to be seen and could have pretty important effects. 147 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: After the oral arguments, and then if a priss Stone case, 148 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: it seemed pretty clear what the decision would be. Can 149 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: you glean anything from the oral arguments in the Idaho case? 150 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 5: I mean, it seemed as if the court was likely 151 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 5: to side with Idaho, although the oral argument was a 152 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 5: little bit all over the place, So it's not entirely 153 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 5: clear that that's going to be true. And if it 154 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 5: is true, it's not entirely clear on what basis they're 155 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 5: going to side with Idaho. So I think we're expecting 156 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 5: a win for Idaho, but on what basis or you know, 157 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 5: how sweeping a win I think remains to be seen. 158 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: And tell us a little about the lawyers for the 159 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: anti abortion doctors and medical groups here. They're from the 160 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: conservative Christian legal advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom that's been 161 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: behind a lot of Supreme Court decisions, and so the alliance. 162 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 5: The plaintiffs here are probably less important than the attorneys 163 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 5: representing them. Who are the Alliance Defending Freedom. That's the 164 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 5: group that has really been dominating in some ways the 165 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 5: landscape of Supreme Court abortion litigation since the Supreme Court 166 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 5: overturned re Vwad. So this is part of a much 167 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 5: longer game for them. They have lots of other cases 168 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 5: and strategies in the pipeline, including challenges involving aborshi pills. 169 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 5: So we're going to see, I think, much more where 170 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 5: this came from from them. 171 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: We've talked before about the fetal personhood movement, which is 172 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: an effort to give fetuses the same rights as a person, 173 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: including the right to life. But you mentioned the Sanctuary 174 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: City for the Unborn movement. What's that about. 175 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 5: This movement has created ordinances in a variety of cities. 176 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 5: These were the model for Texas's SB eight, which, as 177 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 5: you may know, is the bounty bill that passed in Texas. 178 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 5: It's now spreading ordinances based on the Comstock Act. It's 179 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 5: spreading ordinances designed to limit interstate travel for abortion. The 180 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 5: man behind it, Jonathan Mitchell, and his colleague Mark Lee Dixon, 181 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 5: have had a lot of influence on anti abortion strategy 182 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 5: as well. So I think they're also looking at a 183 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 5: potential way into helping with this kind of challenge. 184 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: Anti abortion activists are using different kinds of strategies to 185 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: try to prevent abortions, and we see laws passed in 186 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: states that target abortion in different ways. What's the most concerning. 187 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 5: That's absolutely right, right, So there's very much a kind 188 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 5: of like throw it at the wall and see what sticks. 189 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 5: That's going on here. Many of the strategies you mentioned 190 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 5: jun involve abortion pills, so some of them involve making 191 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 5: it easier to survey and track who's using abortion pills, 192 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 5: in part because states where abortion is legal have been 193 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 5: passing shield laws, some of which allow physicians to mail 194 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 5: pills into banned states. So some states are looking for 195 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 5: tools to track and ultimately prosecute that usage. We're seeing 196 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 5: efforts again to limit travel often called abortion trafficking ordinances 197 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 5: that criminalize assisting people traveling for abortion. We've seen efforts 198 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 5: to even do strange things like label mithipristone a threat 199 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,359 Speaker 5: to the environment and to the groundwater that are targeting 200 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 5: the Environmental Protection Agency. And that's just the tip of 201 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 5: the iceberg. Probably the most salient rely on the strategy 202 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 5: that Donald Trump will you know, win the twenty twenty 203 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 5: four election, and that his Justice Department will be able 204 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 5: to inform the Comstocks Act as a ban on abortion, 205 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 5: and that that would of course override not just state laws, 206 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 5: but even ballid initiatives that voters are deciding for themselves 207 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 5: when it comes to protecting abortion right. So there are 208 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 5: a lot of strategies in play here, and this case 209 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 5: is just a small piece of a much bigger puzzle. 210 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: Finally, Mary, some are breathing a sigh of relief because 211 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has allowed access to MiFi pristone. But 212 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: this doesn't mean that mif A pristone is safe from 213 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: legal attack at the Supreme Court and elsewhere. 214 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 5: No, not at all. I mean, the Supreme Court is 215 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 5: just saying that these particular plaintiffs don't have standing. I 216 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 5: mean this case, I mean, these claims aren't even going away. 217 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 5: That's the most basic point. But I mean it's certainly 218 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 5: not true that abortion is safe and that other attacks 219 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 5: on abortion pills or abortion aren't ongoing. 220 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Mary, I always appreciate your in 221 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: depth analysis in this area. That's Professor Mary Ziegler of 222 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: UC Davis Law School coming up next to the Justices 223 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: reveal the extra money they earned last year in addition 224 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: to their two hundred and seventy four thousand dollars salary. 225 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: Guess who's on the top of the list getting a 226 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: nearly nine hundred thousand dollars book advance and what about 227 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: those four thousand dollars tickets to a Beyonce concert? And 228 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: the justice who, like a bad student in school, asks 229 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: for an extension. The justices will be issuing decisions again tomorrow. 230 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: Some of the most controversial cases of the term are 231 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: still in front of them, those involving Donald Trump and 232 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: presidential immunity, guns, social media, homelessness, the wealth tax, and 233 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: the power of agencies to fight things like climate change. 234 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: Of the sixty one cases the Court heard this term, 235 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: twenty six decisions are still outstanding, but the justices do 236 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: have behind them the revelations about their finances. While all 237 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: the justices except Samuel Leto who got the extension he 238 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: requests every year for a reason only he knows, and surprise, 239 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: it was the newest Justice, Katanji Brown Jackson, who topped 240 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: the list with an eight hundred and ninety three thousand 241 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: dollars advance for her yet to be published memoir, followed 242 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: by Justice Brett Kavanaugh Bloomberg New Supreme Court reporter Greg 243 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: Store has looked at all the numbers. Clarence Thomas suddenly 244 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: remembered about some luxury trips back in twenty nineteen. 245 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 3: These are the trips that he took with Harlan Crowe 246 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: that were the subject of the first big story about 247 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 3: this subject about a year ago from Republica, including this 248 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 3: cruise that he took on Harlan Crow's yacht in Indonesia. 249 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: Now Justice Thomas's disclosure this is a trip in twenty nineteen, 250 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: and his new disclosure. He mentioned at the end that 251 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: in his original twenty nineteen report he had inadvertently admitted 252 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: a couple items, and he disclosed not the cruise itself, 253 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: but he disclosed the food and lodging he got for 254 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: one night in a hotel in Bali. He also disclosed 255 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 3: food and lodging in California and a separate trip at 256 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: this retreat known as the Bohemian Grove, So he didn't 257 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 3: disclose everything about it, but it was at least an 258 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: acknowledgement that these trips seem to have happened. 259 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: But he may now have more trips to account for. 260 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: According to documents released by Senate Democrats just today, Thomas 261 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: failed to disclose at least three more private jet trips 262 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: across the US paid for by GOP, megadnor Harlan Crowe. 263 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: In any event, these trips represent an enormous amount of money. 264 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, an enormous amount. There's a watchdog group known as 265 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 3: Six to the Court that did some very rough calculations 266 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: and came to the conclusion that Justice Thomas received more 267 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: than four million dollars overalling gifts since nineteen ninety one, 268 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 3: including these trips. 269 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: The most interesting gift to me was the nearly four 270 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in Beyonce tickets that Justice Jackson got and 271 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: she topped the list. 272 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, she did top the list. That was a bit 273 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 3: of an eye three seven hundred and twelve dollars for 274 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 3: four concert times. 275 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: I know, I spend that every time I go to 276 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: a concert. 277 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. The author reported two gifts of artwork for 278 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: her chambers at twelve five hundred dollars. Yeah, that was 279 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 3: certainly the one that captured a lot of attention. You know, 280 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 3: no suggestion she did anything wrong there, but she made 281 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 3: a decision that this is the kind of gift she's 282 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 3: comfortable accepting and then disclosing, and you know, it's not 283 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: something that other justices necessarily do. 284 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: Thomas also disclosed receiving photo albums worth two thousand dollars. 285 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: It just seems to me like it's a bad look 286 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: for justices to be accepting these kinds of gifts. Is 287 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: there any rule or ethical consideration that they have to 288 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: make or are they just allowed to take anything they want? 289 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: Well, you know, they do have to disclose them. That's 290 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: sort of the one rule about that. And if you know, 291 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 3: Beyonce were involved in a Supreme Court case, you would 292 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: expect Jackson would probably recuse. But no, that's that is 293 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 3: very much the issue that people are talking about, and 294 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 3: you know, is it a bad look to be doing 295 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: any of this stuff? And the other element I would 296 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: toss into the mix is that, you know, the Justice 297 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 3: is collectively collected about a million and a half in 298 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 3: book income last year, including a big chunk of that 299 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: was Justice Jackson for a book that has yet to 300 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 3: be published. And we just learned the last few days 301 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: that Justice Kavanaugh's coming out with a book and he 302 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 3: reported six digits in income from that book. So you know, 303 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 3: they are picking up extra income in ways that you 304 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: know certainly are eye opening and do sort of raise 305 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: questions about, you know, whether that is the kind of, 306 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 3: as you put it, look we want from a Supreme 307 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: Court justice. 308 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of judges give up lucrative private 309 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: practices to become a judge to do public service. And 310 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: here you have the majority of justice is on the 311 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: highest court in the land, make book deals, etc. And 312 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: making the kind of money that separates them from the 313 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: vast majority of Americans. It may not be unethical, but 314 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: it just strikes me as what's wrong with this picture? 315 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: But I noticed that Justice Kagan never seems to be 316 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: involved with any of these extra income things, books or 317 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: anything else. Was there anything on her financial revelations that 318 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: was noteworthy? 319 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 3: Now she's really one of the ones who has not 320 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 3: written a book, is not accepting unusual gifts, and as 321 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 3: largely steered clear of any of these ethical issues. She is, 322 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 3: I think fair to say, a good deal more more 323 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: cautious and careful. Along with the Chief Justice. He's the 324 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: other one I would sort of put in that next 325 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 3: as people who are very careful about what they accept 326 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 3: in the appearance they give off when they make appearances 327 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 3: and the like, they make different decisions, And of course 328 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 3: one of the issues here is that all these decisions 329 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 3: are up to individual justices. Justice Kagan believes that justice 330 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 3: should operate a certain way, and she's allowed to do that, 331 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 3: and Justice Thomas believes something very different, and there aren't 332 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: really any any constraints on him. 333 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: There was an issue about the Chief Justice's wife, right, 334 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: she's a legal recruiter. 335 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, she left her law practice to become a legal recruiter, 336 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: and there have been there have been some stories about 337 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: her work there. But I think when you talk to 338 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 3: judicial ethics experts, that's one where in general they tend 339 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 3: to say, you know, first of all, a spouse does 340 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 3: have a right to his or her career, and that 341 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: is so separate from the work that the Chief Justice does. 342 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: The idea that you know, somehow it might influence his 343 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: decision making that she is involved in in, you know, 344 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: cooking up a lawyer and a law firm, that that's 345 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: not high on the list of ethical issues we should 346 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: be worried about. 347 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: And so Justice Alito received a ninety day extension to 348 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: file his report and he's done that before. I mean, 349 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: it seems odd since he's filed his taxes. 350 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, he does it every year. We never get a 351 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 3: real explanation for it. No other justice, no other active 352 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: justice does it. As a matter of course. Last year 353 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 3: Justice Thomas got an extension, but that had more of 354 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 3: an explanation to it because he was dealing with a 355 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 3: lot of these new revelations and some changing guidance about 356 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: how to file reports, So that made a little more 357 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 3: sense than Justice Thomas did file his report on time 358 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: this year. Yeah, I don't have an explanation for why 359 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 3: he does that. We will certainly look at his filing 360 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: when it comes in, but it. 361 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: Puts more emphasis on it if you're the only one, 362 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: you know at a certain time coming out. 363 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 3: With it, unless you do it at a time when 364 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 3: all the people who be covering about it are on vacation. 365 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 3: It's the middle of the summer. 366 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: You make a great point, Greg, You know your Supreme 367 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: Court justices very well. Thanks so much. That's Bloomberg New 368 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: Supreme Court reporter Greg store And yesterday, Senate Republicans successfully 369 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: blocked a bill that would have required the Supreme Court 370 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: to adopt a code of conduct and would have created 371 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 1: a mechanism to enforce it. Senate Judiciary Chair Dick Durbin 372 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: criticized Chief Justice John Roberts on the Senate floor for 373 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: not doing enough to enforce ethical standards on the Supreme Court. 374 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, So where 375 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: can you go in Manhattan if you want to see 376 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: some famous politicians, billionaire businessmen, top lawyers, and lots of journalists. 377 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: We'll tell you. Coming up next, I'm June Grosso and 378 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: you're listening to Bloomberg. So where can you go in 379 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: Manhattan if you want to see some famous politicians, billionaire 380 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: bill businessmen, and top lawyers. Go downtown to Lower Manhattan 381 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: where courthouses abound. And we're in the last few weeks 382 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: like a planetary alignment of the justice system. Politicians and 383 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: Wall Street figures have been crossing paths at simultaneous trials 384 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: of former President Donald Trump, Senator Bob Menendez, Christian billionaire 385 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: Bill Wong, and fugitive Chinese tycoon Guo Wangue. Joining me 386 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: is someone who has experienced this firsthand. Bloomberg Legal reporter 387 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: Ava Benny Morrison. How big is the area downtown where 388 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: the Federal Courthouse and the Manhattan State courthouses sit it's. 389 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 4: Quite a dense little area down there. You have the 390 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 4: Federal Courthouse, which is on Tel Street, and then across 391 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 4: the road from that you have the New York State 392 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 4: Supreme Courthouse. And then there are a couple of other 393 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 4: federal courthouses state courthouses in the streets around that, so 394 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 4: it's all very walkabules and they're all very close to 395 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 4: each other. 396 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: Tell us about the four trials that until last week 397 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: we're going on, and what you called a planetary alignment 398 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: of the justice system. 399 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 4: Yes, it certainly has been very busy down there. In 400 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 4: the state courthouse New York State Supreme we had former 401 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 4: President Donald Trump on trial in the hush money case, 402 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 4: that was until he was convicted last week. And then 403 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 4: in the federal courthouse we have free trials going on 404 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 4: at the same time. Just a few flaws apart. Firstly, 405 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 4: we've got Bil Kwong, who was the founder of the 406 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 4: immensely successful family office Arkaeos Capital Wants Management. Our KGOS 407 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 4: collapsed in twenty twenty one, and that reverberated around Wall Street, 408 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 4: led to massive losses for a number of big banks 409 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 4: and almost wiped out Bill Wong's thirty six billion dollar 410 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 4: personal fortune. He's accused of broad market mutilation and racket heearing. 411 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 4: We've also got the trial of Senator Bob Menendez. He 412 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 4: is accused of accepting bribes while he was in office, 413 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 4: and that trial has been going on for a couple 414 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 4: of weeks now, and we've had some interesting witnesses, cooperating 415 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 4: witnesses who testifying against Menendez. And then lastly we have 416 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 4: Chinese tycoon Miles Glows. Milesgow has been living in New 417 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 4: York for a few years. He's in a close associated 418 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 4: Steve Bannon. He's also close with hedge fund manager Kyle 419 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 4: bat He's accused of fraud and swindling up to a 420 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 4: billion dollars out of investors. So it's all happening there 421 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 4: at once. 422 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: Can I assume that while the hush money trial was 423 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: going on, that all the attention and the crowds were 424 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: around that courthouse. 425 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 4: Yes, they certainly were, But because of how close the 426 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 4: courthouses were, some of those crowds were spread out. For example, 427 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 4: every afternoon before about four pm, there was a small 428 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 4: group of Trump supporters that would gather outside the Federal Courthouse, 429 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 4: which is across the road from where Trump was obviously 430 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 4: on trial, and they would turn out with Trump flags, 431 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 4: make America great again, hats, horns, whistles, and they'd wait 432 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 4: for him to drive past his convoy when he would 433 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 4: leave court each day, and he would slowly roll past. 434 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 4: He wouldn't wind down the window, but he would put 435 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 4: them away through the very dark windows. And they get 436 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 4: very excited about that, but they pack up and return 437 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 4: the next day. 438 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: Wall Street is really watching the Wang trial, and a 439 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: lot of attention is on Menandez too, But Wang seemed 440 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: to have benefited from the concentration on Trump. 441 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, especially in finance world and on Wall Street. 442 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 4: Everyone knows who Bill Huang is and there is a 443 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 4: lot of interests, as he said in his trial. Yet, 444 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 4: because of all the other high profile trials going on 445 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 4: with Menendez Trump, every time Bill Huang walked out of 446 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 4: the courthouse, he goes largely unnoticed by the people that 447 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 4: are standing outside and the Trump supporters. In contrast, Menendez, 448 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 4: when he walks out of the courthouse by himself, he's 449 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 4: often heckled by some of those supporters who yell things 450 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 4: at him, and the US marshals have to clear a 451 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 4: path for him so he can get into a waiting car. 452 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 4: So it's been interesting that someone like Bill Wong, who 453 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 4: has such a massive impact on the finance world only 454 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, can sort of go in 455 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 4: and out of the courthouse largely unnotice So I think 456 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 4: he's definitely benefited from having his trial underway in the 457 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 4: same building as someone a bit more high profile like 458 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 4: Bob Menendez. 459 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: Do these famous defendants ever run into each other. 460 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 4: So even though these men have been on trial in 461 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 4: separate trials, separate courtrooms, there's often some moments where they 462 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 4: cross paths, especially in the morning. Everyone who doesn't have 463 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 4: a path to get into the federal courthouse has to 464 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: line up in security, and that can be a wildly 465 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 4: different mix of people. You've got witnesses who were testifying, 466 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 4: You've got people lining up for naturalization ceremonies, You've got 467 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 4: defendants out of town lawyers. One morning, we saw Bill 468 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 4: Huang waiting in the marble lobby for you and looking 469 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 4: at some of the court sketch artists pieces that were 470 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 4: hanging on the walls that had captured moments in other 471 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 4: high profile trials that had happened inside that courthouse. Behind him, 472 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 4: through the glass, you could see Senator Menendez waiting in 473 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 4: the security line, and just a few people ahead of 474 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 4: him was Scott Becker. Scot Becker used to work for 475 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 4: bil Khong at archae Goths, and he was preparing to 476 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 4: testify against Huang later that day. So it is the 477 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 4: courthouse has certainly been a melting pot of very interesting 478 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 4: characters in cases. 479 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: Now, does Wang or Menendez have an entourage? 480 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 4: Kwang certainly has an entourage. He has had at least 481 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 4: a dozen people turn up at his court case every 482 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 4: single day. They take up two or three of the 483 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 4: benches in the public gallery, and they will often join 484 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 4: him for lunch inside the courtroom cafeteria. So he's definitely 485 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 4: got his fair share of loyal supporters around him every day. 486 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 4: Menendez has been more of a loan figure. I've only 487 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 4: ever seen him with his lawyers waiting for the elevator 488 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 4: or outside the courtroom. When he has walked out of 489 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 4: the courthouse, he's often been by himself. Sometimes he stops 490 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 4: and gives interviews to some of the Spanish speaking media 491 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 4: who have been gathered outside, but largely he's coming and 492 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 4: going from the courthouse on his own. 493 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: The courthouse is there are near Chinatown and Little Italy. 494 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: Do they head off there for lunch, Not that I've seen. 495 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 4: In the past. There have been defenders who have been 496 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 4: on trial who have chosen to leave the courthouse during 497 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 4: the lunch break and go and find some dumplings in 498 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 4: Chinatown around the corner. But in this case, I've almost 499 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 4: seen Huang in the court cafeteria every day, sitting down 500 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 4: with his wife and some of his employees from his nonprofit, 501 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 4: the Great and Mercy Foundation. He's co defended Patrick Halligan. 502 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 4: I've think him a couple of times eating lunch outside 503 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 4: in the patio, which I've got to say has quite 504 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 4: beautiful views of the Brooklyn Bridge, so it's a nice 505 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 4: place to sit, especially as the weather gets more of 506 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 4: mar Menendez though, hasn't been seen around the cafeteria, so 507 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 4: I don't know where he's bunkering down to lunch each day. 508 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Cork cafeterias often have you know, prosecutors, defense attorneys, judges, 509 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: defendants all in this one place with their treys. It's 510 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: really unusual, you know, the feel of it, because they're 511 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: normally on opposite sides. It can seem sort of surreal sometimes. 512 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 4: Absolutely and jurors aren't allowed to go to that cafeteria 513 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 4: because there are defendants, witnesses, prosecutors, defense lawyers coming and 514 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: going constantly. But it certainly has been a buzzer of activity. 515 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 4: There are people lining up for sandwiches, and one day 516 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 4: you can be standing next to a federal court judge. 517 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 4: The next day you're standing next to the prosecutor who's 518 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 4: presenting the government's case in the massive racketeering trial upstairs. 519 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 4: And then you see a defendant sitting down with his 520 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 4: white next to the court security officer who's in charge 521 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 4: of during everyone's behaving himself in his court room. So 522 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 4: you know, they're human beings. They need to eat at 523 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 4: some point, So it's interesting just to see the mix 524 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 4: of people that end up sitting next to each other 525 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 4: snacking on chicken salad or slice a pizza. Avalanche. 526 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: And these trials, the Menendez trial, the Quang trial, and 527 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: the Guo trial, are they expected to take much longer 528 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: because they have been going on for quite a while. 529 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 4: They have been going on for a while, and they 530 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 4: still have a bit to go. I check in on 531 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 4: the Bow trial morning, and I think that the prosecution 532 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 4: is only about halfway through its case. In the Huang trial, 533 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 4: the judge estimated that it may well fill into July 534 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 4: at this point, and the Menendez case, the prosecution is 535 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 4: still presenting it's evident, so we've still got a few 536 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 4: weeks to go. In each of these trials, it's been 537 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 4: a real juggle, I think for the reporters covering it, 538 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 4: trying to run between each courtrooms. 539 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: And former President Trump complained about the courthouse, the Manhattan 540 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: Criminal Court, I mean, the federal courthouse is much nicer 541 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: than the state courthouses. 542 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 4: Yes, it is. The Federal Courthouse is quite grand. Got 543 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 4: a big, open marble lobby. The courtrooms have great acoustics, 544 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 4: which is very important when you're trying to hear whatever 545 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: I'm saying. Beautiful views over the city and over the 546 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 4: Hudson River. There's a great, big test room there that 547 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 4: we all work out of, so it is a lot 548 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 4: easier to work out of there than it is, I 549 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 4: think in State court, which is a lot older, A 550 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 4: lot of bit of reporters who were covering the Trump 551 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 4: trial had to line up for hours each day to 552 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 4: get a spot in an overflow room. So there have 553 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 4: been totally different experiences covering trials, and each of those courthouses. 554 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: Well, it's a really interesting time to be covering trials 555 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: in downtown Manhattan. 556 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 4: It's really bozzy as prosecutors everywhere, lawyers everywhere. You just 557 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 4: run into people what the most random of places. Everyone's 558 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 4: sort of saying, what are you going to or what 559 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 4: are you covering all these persons up in this trial? 560 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 4: Or quick, let's get down to this. So it's a 561 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 4: really fun time to date there. 562 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Ava, you'll have to report back to us as 563 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: the trials wind down. Thanks so much. That's Bloomberg Legal 564 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: Reporter Ava, Benny Morrison, and that's it for this edition 565 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg Law Podcast. Remember you can always get 566 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: the latest legal news by subscribing and listening to the 567 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg dot com, 568 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: slash podcast, slash Law. I'm June Grosso and this is 569 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg