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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and this is stuff you should know. Just us today.

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Speaker 2: Jerry's on vacation and that's cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think Jerry's in the Disney World.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it went right after me. She's in the in

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Speaker 1: the d I said, hey, Jerry in the south bathroom

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Speaker 1: of Frontierland, above the toilet I've left. I've taped a gun.

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Speaker 1: Go shoot Mo Green. Go shoot Mo Green in the

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Speaker 1: restaurant booth.

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Speaker 2: Wow. No, Mo Green got it in the on the

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Speaker 2: massage table.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, police commissioner or the police chief. He was. He

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Speaker 2: was tangential to the hit with the bathroom. I don't

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Speaker 2: remember who was trying to hit.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I goofed that up. Hey. Shout out to uh.

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Speaker 2: Wait, no, we're not done sorting this out.

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Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead, name all the hits in the Godfather.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to our pal and friend of the show,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Pollack, because that made me think of the great,

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Speaker 1: great show that is one of my favorite shows called

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Speaker 1: Better Things from the wonderful talented Pamela Adlin. They are

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Speaker 1: entering their final season, and I watched the first episode

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Speaker 1: the other night and Pollock, who plays her brother on

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Speaker 1: the show, had a great line that I knew was

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Speaker 1: improved where he was getting in his car and I

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Speaker 1: can't remember what they were talking about, and he said

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Speaker 1: right in the eye like Moe Green. And I texted

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Speaker 1: him immediately and I was like, right in the eye

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Speaker 1: like Mo Green. I was like, that was yours and

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Speaker 1: he went, oh yeah, he said that was improv nice.

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Speaker 1: It was very fun. It's always fun to be able

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Speaker 1: to watch a TV show and text your pal that's

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Speaker 1: on that TV.

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Speaker 2: Show, right, Yeah, he's got the best parts. He just

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Speaker 2: pops up in all the best stuff, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's in masl he's I think. And I've talked

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Speaker 1: to Pollock about this and he's like, yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 1: I think he could star in a really great indie film.

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Speaker 1: I just think he's a really great actor and he's

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Speaker 1: great at comedy. But I think he's, on top of that,

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Speaker 1: just a really really great actor.

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Speaker 2: Didn't he star in that Project green Light film? I

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Speaker 2: don't know, did he which I'm pretty I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 2: I think the first season.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, I don't remember those movies. I know that

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Speaker 1: Shila boff that was where he got his start, Is

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Speaker 1: that right? Was he in one of those the Battle

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Speaker 1: of Shaker Heights or something?

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Speaker 2: I think that might have been the one that Pollock was.

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Speaker 1: Was he in that? I don't think of that movie,

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Speaker 1: but I mean a really good movie. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure the Project green Light It was a cool show though,

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Speaker 1: I dug it. Yeah, yeah, and brought that back in

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Speaker 1: the iPhone filmmaking age.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little surprising who would be who would

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Speaker 2: bring it back? Though?

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Speaker 1: Now Ben and Mack could bring him back. I mean

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Speaker 1: they that's who did it the first time, right.

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Speaker 2: Sure, But I mean are they still relevant? Aren't there too?

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Speaker 2: Like younger version of math better?

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Speaker 1: I don't know who the new Ben and Matt are.

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Speaker 2: How about Whiz Khalifah.

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Speaker 1: And Charlomagne the God?

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Speaker 2: Sure there you go?

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Speaker 1: All right? Great? Anyway, Keppa Bok's a great actor and

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Speaker 1: a good dude.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agreed, And probably somebody I would guess who's

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Speaker 2: seen the movie that we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 2: I would be really surprised if he hasn't seen it,

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Speaker 2: just because I feel like, if you are into movies,

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Speaker 2: if you're a movie maker. If you are if you

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Speaker 2: consider yourself a cinemaphile, if you want to get punched

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Speaker 2: in the stomach, you've probably seen Titty Cut Follies, right, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean this is one that I saw in film class

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Speaker 1: in college. It is one that you there's about a

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Speaker 1: fifty to fifty chance that you will see this if

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Speaker 1: you've seen it in film class in a college. People

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Speaker 1: like Casey, our colleague, Casey Pegram, no doubt, is a

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Speaker 1: Frederick Weisman fan. I'm surely if I texted him, he'd

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, sure Weisman. Yeah, although I found Tittercut

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Speaker 1: Follies was not one of his great at work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds like Casey.

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Speaker 1: God bless Casey, all time greatest movie crush guest. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: Fred Weisman made this film. He was a law professor

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Speaker 1: in his thirties in the sixties and made this documentary

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Speaker 1: film about a mental institution, specifically one for the criminally insane,

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Speaker 1: that's what they called it. Yeah, and it was a

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Speaker 1: very you know, it was a movie that gained a

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Speaker 1: lot of reputation as like the most disturbing film you've

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Speaker 1: ever seen, and it's been banned in this many places.

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Speaker 1: And that kind of thing. But when you kind of

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Speaker 1: peel it back, it's just a very straight up, sort

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Speaker 1: of cinema verite documentary about a institution that needed to

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Speaker 1: get their act together right.

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Speaker 2: And that was kind of Wiseman's told jam. Like, he's

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Speaker 2: made forty eight films. I think he just turned ninety

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Speaker 2: two a couple months ago, amazing, and starting in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty six he made about a film a year. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and he has his own style, like you said, cinema

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Speaker 2: verite you, which I feel like we should probably kind

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Speaker 2: of just go ahead and explain, don't you sure, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: go ahead, go ahead, film guy.

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Speaker 1: Well, cinema verite. I mean, what's the direct translation, direct cinema. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: direct cinema. And it's the idea that you kind of

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Speaker 1: set a camera up and let it let life happen

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Speaker 1: in front of it for whatever your subject is. Don't

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Speaker 1: you don't do interviews, you don't do talking head shots,

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Speaker 1: you don't. It's really just one good example is that

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Speaker 1: documentary in the of course now I can't think of

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Speaker 1: it in the seventies about the American family that ran

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Speaker 1: on PBS that was so groundbreaking, where they just set

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Speaker 1: up a camera and followed this family. And if you're

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Speaker 1: thinking it sounds a lot like reality TV, I think,

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Speaker 1: and it's purest form reality TV can be this, but

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Speaker 1: it really turned into something else entirely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just so deeply manipulated by producers behind

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Speaker 2: the scenes who tell them to do this or that

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Speaker 2: or whatever. Yeah, cinema verites would would not would not

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Speaker 2: want to do that. They they just shoot and hope

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Speaker 2: hope also that people act like themselves. It's another thing

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Speaker 2: and one thing Frederick Wiseman, the guy who made Titty

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Speaker 2: Cut Follies, said like he believed that people basically acted

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Speaker 2: like themselves when the camera was around, because people are

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Speaker 2: in general lousy actors. Yeah, and they're behaving like you

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Speaker 2: would expect them to behave. So they're probably acting like

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Speaker 2: they would without the cameras, but especially in a cinema

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Speaker 2: verite kind of setup, because it's it's intrusive. There's a

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Speaker 2: camera there, but it's not nearly as intrusive as like

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Speaker 2: a camera on like some rig that's flying around, Like

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Speaker 2: there's lighting people and daffers and a craft services table

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Speaker 2: that's calling your name, but it's just much less intrusive

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Speaker 2: than that it's minimally intrusive as far as filmmaking goes,

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Speaker 2: and that's the point of it, because they want to

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Speaker 2: document reality without leading the viewer as much as possible.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, Yeah, that's exactly it. And I

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Speaker 1: love cinema verite documentaries especially, and I also like sort

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Speaker 1: of quasi cinema verite where there's a lot of like

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Speaker 1: I don't mind interviews being put in there, as long

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Speaker 1: as there's a lot of just sort of watching life happen.

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Speaker 1: It's really amazingly engrossing. There were these two filmmakers that

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Speaker 1: I think inspired Weissman, Richard Leecock and Robert Drew, who

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Speaker 1: in the early I think in the fifties and early

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties were kind of dabbling in cinema verite documentaries.

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Speaker 1: And they made one in particular called Mooney Versus Fowl,

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Speaker 1: which is about a high school football championship and Mooney

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Speaker 1: and Fowl are the two coaches. And I watched the

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Speaker 1: trailer for that today. I guess I'm guessing it's his

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Speaker 1: daughter that put this up on VIM along with some

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Speaker 1: other like interviews with her dad, Drew's daughter that it's

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Speaker 1: really engrossing, just to watch, and especially because all you

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Speaker 1: see if you're a modern person in twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: and you're like, what was life like in the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: you don't get that from I love Lucy and Dick

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Speaker 1: Van Dyke, Like, those are great shows, but to be

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Speaker 1: able to just sit in and take a peek at

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Speaker 1: these high school football coaches and these people the community

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Speaker 1: and the stands and these players, like, it's just so

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Speaker 1: engrossing to me. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I

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Speaker 1: really like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally, But yeah, I feel like, even if

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Speaker 2: it isn't your cup of tea, you would, like you said,

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Speaker 2: be engrossed by it. I don't think there's any way

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Speaker 2: to just be like no, I don't know. Some people

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Speaker 2: probably find it dull. I'm sure there are, but it's

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Speaker 2: just it is engrossing. I don't think there's any other

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Speaker 2: way to universally describe it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Drew, I sent you that one little interview

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Speaker 1: snip and I don't know if you saw it, but he

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Speaker 1: sort of was talking about being a new form of journalism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where he talked about you know, it's like a you know,

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Speaker 1: they're like, well, what is this though? And he's like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's like a play without a playwriter, a movie without actors,

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Speaker 1: or journalism without opinions. And I was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to say in the nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Fifties, yeah, all the way back then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's they saw it as leelock, and I

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Speaker 1: think Drew saw it more as a form of journalism.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like that's what documentaries used to be,

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Speaker 1: and that's changed a lot, sometimes for the better. It

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Speaker 1: can be all things, I guess, but it seems like

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Speaker 1: documentaries used to be way more journalism and less at

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Speaker 1: big time entertainment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think about How do you feel

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Speaker 2: about recreations and documentaries.

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Speaker 1: I think it can be cool if you have a good,

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Speaker 1: like a new spin on it, kind of like when

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Speaker 1: the Kid Stays in the picture came out the documentary

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Speaker 1: about the producer what's his face Robert Evans, Yeah, Robert Godfather,

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. They did those recreations through animation and this

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Speaker 1: really cool style of animation that like was really engaging

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Speaker 1: and awesome, and like, recrease can be really cool if

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Speaker 1: you do it right, I think, yeah, or really bad

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Speaker 1: if it's like some dumb cop show on TV.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like, but those are kind of fun too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you mean like the one Headline News shows it one

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Speaker 2: hundred episodes today. Forensic files.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, but if it's the recrease, I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking of where it's like, you know, they recreated murder

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Speaker 1: on like you got five hundred dollars to shoot this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah, you're thinking of forensic files.

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Speaker 2: But still, if you watch enough of it, it'll really

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Speaker 2: like your whole life will turn dark. Yeah, i'd be

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Speaker 2: careful with court files everybody.

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Speaker 1: So should we go back and talk about Bridgewater State Hospital?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because this is the place where Frederick Wiseman showed

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Speaker 2: up with his camera with permission, as we'll see. And

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Speaker 2: by the time he got there in nineteen I think

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Speaker 2: he shot in nineteen sixty five, maybe nineteen sixty six, yes, okay,

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Speaker 2: when he got there, it had been around for over

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Speaker 2: one hundred years. It didn't start out as a state hospital.

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Speaker 2: It started out as a poor house, an almshouse, I think,

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Speaker 2: all the way back in eighteen fifty four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting when you read these it's disturbing.

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Speaker 1: But when you read these old timey classifications in medicine,

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Speaker 1: or especially in mental health, where someone be you know,

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Speaker 1: the description of someone that might be put there might

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Speaker 1: just be bad. Like that's one of the descriptions, right.

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Speaker 2: Like that'd be on par with like labeling them alcoholic

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Speaker 2: or schizophrenia or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, if you were if you had

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Speaker 1: an alcohol problem, or you had legitimate you know, mental

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Speaker 1: health issues, or if you were pregnant maybe or blind,

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Speaker 1: or you had syphilis, you might have been put in

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Speaker 1: this poorhouse in eighteen fifty four.

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Speaker 2: Right, so in Massachusett by the way, Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if we said that or not. So that's how

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Speaker 2: it started out. And then over time they started adding

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Speaker 2: criminals and focused more on criminals and the mentally ill,

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Speaker 2: and then by the time eighteen ninety five rolled around,

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Speaker 2: it became the State Asylum for Insane Criminals at the

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Speaker 2: State Workhouse at Bridgewater, and then eventually it became known

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Speaker 2: as Bridgewater State Hospital, I think by nineteen oh nine.

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Speaker 2: And then very crucially here it was handed over from

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Speaker 2: the State Board of Charity, because remember it started out

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Speaker 2: as a poorhouse, over to the Massachusetts Bureau of Prison.

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Speaker 2: So for all intents and purposes, at least bureaucratically speaking,

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Speaker 2: is a place where the criminally insane, how they were

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Speaker 2: termed in the twentieth century is are held.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there were some bad criminals in there. I

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Speaker 1: mean there were murderers, There were people who were convicted

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Speaker 1: of can of rape of children or just generally of rape.

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Speaker 1: So there were some bad dudes in there for sure.

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Speaker 1: But then there were also and this was sort of

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Speaker 1: one of the saddest things about sort of that time

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Speaker 1: in this country. Those people were right alongside other people

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Speaker 1: who either committed a very minor crime or maybe didn't

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Speaker 1: commit a crime at all, and they were just quote

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Speaker 1: unquote being held there temporarily, but that could stretch on

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Speaker 1: into years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's still something today called civil commitment, and it's

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Speaker 2: basically that you were being held not because of a

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Speaker 2: crime or because of a minor crime, and you maybe

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Speaker 2: you've even served your sentence, but you're being held because

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Speaker 2: you had been deemed mentally unfit to return to society,

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Speaker 2: even though maybe you didn't even start out like in

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Speaker 2: a mental hospital, maybe you started out in jail and

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Speaker 2: then you were just a trouble maker. They considered you

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Speaker 2: a troublemaker in jail. And you got sent to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: At that point, your sentence was just it just went away.

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Speaker 2: It was you were there until a doctor decided you

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Speaker 2: should be let out. And the problem was getting the

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Speaker 2: attention of a doctor long enough to say, oh, actually

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Speaker 2: you're fine, to let you out was really difficult to do.

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Speaker 2: And so it was a really desperate place, especially for

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Speaker 2: people who didn't feel like they should be there, belong there,

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Speaker 2: because after a while it seemed to exert its influence

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Speaker 2: on your mind and your outlook, and it would bend

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Speaker 2: you to reflect it so that you kind of needed

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Speaker 2: to be there after a while, even if you didn't

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Speaker 2: start out that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, anyone who's ever seen one floor of

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Speaker 1: the Cuckoo's Nests is kind of exactly that happens in

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Speaker 1: the plot. Like people got worse at these places, right,

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned the medical actual medical attention. President of

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Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Bar Association at the time, Paul Tamborello, and

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Speaker 1: big thanks to Livia for digging us up and putting

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Speaker 1: us together for us. He told the Harvard Crimson back

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Speaker 1: then that of the six hundred and fifty men held

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Speaker 1: at the hospital at the time, actual medical staff were

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Speaker 1: able to see less than half of them one time

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Speaker 1: a year for about twenty minutes. So other than that,

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Speaker 1: you're like, well, then who was it. If it wasn't

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Speaker 1: medical staff, it was like prison guards basically, yes.

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Speaker 2: And even then when you did get that twenty minutes,

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Speaker 2: you were confronted by a person or group of people

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Speaker 2: who were going on the premise that everything you said

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Speaker 2: came out of your mouth was looney right and not

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Speaker 2: based in reality or fact. No matter how well you

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Speaker 2: put your case or stated your case or complained, like

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Speaker 2: any show of emotion would just prove to them that

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Speaker 2: you were meant to be in there for another year

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Speaker 2: until they could hopefully see you again and reevaluate you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was this one example Olivia found of jeez,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to believe. Matteo Kalicochi was arrested in nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty seven, at my daughter's age almost years old, for

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Speaker 1: stealing seven bucks from a grocery store, which is pretty

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Speaker 1: good take in nineteen twenty seven, by the way, and

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Speaker 1: he was found incompetent to stand trial and then sent

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Speaker 1: to kind of sent all around over the years to

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Speaker 1: different institutions. After he tried to escape in nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: five was eventually landed at Bridgewater, and this is another

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Speaker 1: one of those archaic terms. Was charged with bad habits

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Speaker 1: and resisting authority. And this seven year old eventually ended

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Speaker 1: up here later in life, but stayed there for twenty

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Speaker 1: eight years and released in nineteen sixty three. So that's

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Speaker 1: just one example of how like sort of a small

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Speaker 1: petty crime, but if you maybe have an attitude or

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Speaker 1: your troublemaker as a kid, and you bounce around from

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Speaker 1: place to place, you just might wind up here with

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Speaker 1: no one advocating for you. This all made me think

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Speaker 1: of like what families were doing. But I guess at

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Speaker 1: the time some families were kind of like maybe convinced

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Speaker 1: themselves there were or off there, or they didn't want

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Speaker 1: to deal with the trouble, or there were no family

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or their family was poor and had no influence

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Speaker 2: over anybody, so they couldn't do anything about it.

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Speaker 1: Very sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, we take a break and we'll come

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Speaker 2: back with Wiseman and his tenure while he was at Bridgewater.

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Speaker 2: So Frederick Wiseman had an interesting origin story as a filmmaker.

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Speaker 2: He was he went to law school at Yale supposedly

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Speaker 2: to get out of the Korean War draft, but then

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Speaker 2: when he graduated, he still ended up getting drafted anyway,

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Speaker 2: and he was in there for almost two.

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Speaker 1: Years kind of after the war.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, but I still I'll bet he was

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Speaker 2: not happy about being drafted either way. Sure, so he

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Speaker 2: he went he, I guess went to Korea for a

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Speaker 2: couple of years, and then after the army he and

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Speaker 2: his wife what is her.

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Speaker 1: Name, Zippora Batshaw A great name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was a law professor as well. They went

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Speaker 2: to Paris, lived for a couple of years and then

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Speaker 2: decided they need to move back, so they moved back

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Speaker 2: to like the Boston area. But while there, Frederick Wiseman

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Speaker 2: got into filmmaking. He started just shooting stuff with a

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Speaker 2: little eight millimeter camera about the time that cinema verite

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Speaker 2: was being developed in France.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So, like you said, he came back from France,

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Speaker 1: started teaching law at BU and sort of had that

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Speaker 1: filmmaking bug still. So he bought the rights to a book,

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Speaker 1: a novel called The Cool World about poverty and Harlem,

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Speaker 1: and he hired a woman named Shirley Clark Clark sorry

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Speaker 1: to direct it and It was a very small I

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Speaker 1: don't think it was much of a big film at all,

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Speaker 1: but it was a very small sort of indie film

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Speaker 1: at the time, which is to say it was probably

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Speaker 1: not seen much. But Wiseman was like, hey, like, if

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Speaker 1: Shirley Clark can do this thing, I can do this thing.

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Speaker 1: And I don't like law school. I don't like teaching law.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things he did because he didn't

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Speaker 1: love teaching law was take his class on a lot

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Speaker 1: of field trips, I guess, just to mix things up.

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Speaker 1: And they used to go to Bridgewater, and after a

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Speaker 1: few visits he was like, wait a minute, I think

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Speaker 1: everything kind of came together. His love of filmmaking, his

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Speaker 1: cinema verite kind of becoming popular, and his interest in that,

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Speaker 1: and then his interest disinterested in law and interest in Bridgewater.

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Speaker 1: So he had this idea to make this film there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as we'll see later, this is kind of crucial.

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Speaker 2: He got permission to show up. He's said many times

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Speaker 2: in later interviews, Bridgewater is no the kind of place

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Speaker 2: she just kind of parachute in at night, do all

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Speaker 2: your filming and then creep away at dawn with all

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Speaker 2: of your footage, Like he had to get extensive permission.

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Speaker 1: From sounds like he's done that before though, which is.

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Speaker 2: Kind of cool. Yeah, we've done that before too in

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Speaker 2: grocery stores. Remember, Oh, that's right. So he got permission

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Speaker 2: from the Lieutenant governor, he got permission from the Department

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Speaker 2: of Corrections head, he got permission of the superintendent of Bridgewater.

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Speaker 2: They all knew he was there, and they would have

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Speaker 2: figured out eventually anyway, because he spent twenty nine days

377
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Speaker 2: filming in Bridgewater, and he would just do his cinema

378
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Speaker 2: verita style where he would just walk around and just

379
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Speaker 2: film stuff, film whatever. He could, just film film film.

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Speaker 2: And I saw something where he said that for his

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Speaker 2: documentaries he films anything from like seventy five hours at

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Speaker 2: a minimum chuck now, to two hundred and fifty hours,

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Speaker 2: and then he goes through it all and edits all

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Speaker 2: the stuff he likes, and then after like month eight

385
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Speaker 2: of editing, he'll start piecing it together into like an

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Speaker 2: arc A story arc.

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Speaker 1: Wow, which boiled down in this case to eighty three

388
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Speaker 1: minutes of a movie. Yeah, And the name Tittcut Follies

389
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Speaker 1: comes from I think Titticut was a Native American name.

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Speaker 1: I would guess somewhere in the region.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really pin pink for the Bridgewater area, that's

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Speaker 2: what they called it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And the follies were that, you know. The film

394
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Speaker 1: opens up with a musical performance by the I guess

395
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Speaker 1: there were inmates with a song strike up the band

396
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Speaker 1: where all they're all dressed the same and you can

397
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Speaker 1: see you can see quite a few clips on YouTube.

398
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Speaker 1: But as Livia points out, like Wiseman has always been

399
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Speaker 1: really guarded with how his films are exhibited, and so

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Speaker 1: I don't think you can just like go YouTube this

401
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Speaker 1: thing up and watch the whole thing still, even.

402
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Speaker 2: I did last night.

403
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Speaker 1: Oh on YouTube?

404
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay? And not on YouTube, nos on vimeo.

405
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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, all right? I wonder if that's like some

406
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Speaker 1: sort of pirated upload.

407
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Speaker 2: It was. It's it was a VHS copied put online,

408
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Speaker 2: so I'm thinking, yeah, it was pirated.

409
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Speaker 1: Did you watch it all?

410
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

411
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Speaker 1: I did.

412
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Speaker 2: I watched I'd never seen it before. I was familiar

413
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Speaker 2: with it the title. I had not a lot of

414
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Speaker 2: idea of what it was about, but yeah, it was

415
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Speaker 2: what do you think certainly striking? It was really something

416
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Speaker 2: like I had ups and downs and highs and lows.

417
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Speaker 2: And I think I it was everything Wiseman wanted me

418
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Speaker 2: to feel about it. It was pretty great.

419
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is great. It's even the eighty

420
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Speaker 1: three minutes. It's tough to sit through the whole thing

421
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Speaker 1: because I think by its nature, cinema verite can be taxing. Yeah,

422
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Speaker 1: even while engrossing, it can be pretty taxing. That's the

423
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: best way to put it. But it's also obviously in

424
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Speaker 1: this case, it's not about high school football championship. It's

425
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Speaker 1: it's literally watching these people. I mean, I guess we

426
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Speaker 1: should just talk about some of the scenes maybe.

427
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And a lot of the people are going to

428
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Speaker 2: go back and be like, justa this was great. Bear

429
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Speaker 2: with us everybody.

430
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, hey, you're a cinophile, right, punch me

431
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Speaker 1: in the face.

432
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Speaker 2: No, the stomach, he says, way too hostile stomachs. A

433
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Speaker 2: little bit of friendliness left in it, you.

434
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, like Kudini style, Right, that'll do. Uh well.

435
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,479
Speaker 1: One of the scenes that Livia picked out that certainly

436
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: stands out in my mind too, and I think you

437
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: can actually find parts of this one on YouTube is

438
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: a guard. I guess was he dry shaving him? It

439
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: looked like dry shaving or was it a wet shave.

440
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: No, they put like shaving cream on him and everything.

441
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: Oh okay, And everybody seems to characterize it as like

442
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: really rough, like forceful, kind of almost like he's being

443
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: tortured with the shave.

444
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: It was fast, It was fast, Yeah.

445
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: I didn't. It didn't look like it hurt the patient,

446
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 2: so it didn't. And it didn't seem like the guy

447
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: was trying to torture him. It just seemed like he

448
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 2: was being very quick and efficient. And he does like

449
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: cut him at the edge of one of his mouth,

450
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: one of the edges of a corner of his mouth. Sorry. Right,

451
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: so he's eat a little bit, but he doesn't seem

452
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: like he doesn't seem in distress at all while he's

453
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: shaving him. At the very least, he's not in distress

454
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: because of the shaving, right. But then what happened, Well,

455
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: there are these at least two guards, right, and this inmate,

456
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: by the way, his name Jim. He's probably the most

457
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 2: famous character in the in the movie. Yeah, or patient,

458
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: I should say, he's not a character he has he's

459
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: very it's easy to get a rise out of Jim,

460
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 2: as hard as Jim tries to not let you get

461
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: a rise out of him. If you press his buttons,

462
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: he's gonna like, yeah, he's gonna get mad. He's going

463
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: to try to contain himself. And there were a couple

464
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: of guards that were guarding Jim while he was being

465
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: like like washed and shaved and all that stuff, who

466
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: just spent the entire scene trying to get a rise

467
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: out of him by saying like, why is your room

468
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: so dirty, Jim? Or is your room going to be

469
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: clean tomorrow? Jim, You've got to keep your room clean Jim,

470
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: just ceaselessly and incessantly, and we see eventually when they

471
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: take him back to his room, it's totally empty. There's

472
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: a window, there's nothing in the room. Yeah, and in fact,

473
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: Jim is kept naked in his room, so there's no

474
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,239
Speaker 2: way for Jim for Jim's room to be dirty, and

475
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: also for no way for Jim to keep his room clean.

476
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: These guards, you realize, we're just trying to get a

477
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: rise out of Jim, and they do over and over again,

478
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: and it's really hard and sad to watch Jim like

479
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 2: like just get up, saying he's trying so hard to

480
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: just not let these guys get to him. Because he

481
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: knows what they're doing. He's fully aware of what they're doing,

482
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: and he just can't help himself. Probably like five different

483
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: times he reacts and then tries to regain his composure again.

484
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost as if they're trying to drive him mad.

485
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're also doing I saw somebody describe it

486
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: as they're they're goading him with the kind of like

487
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 2: bored desensitization or desensitivity of somebody who does this like

488
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 2: every day and know exactly what he's gonna do, and

489
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: there's no fun in it anymore. But they just kind

490
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 2: of do it to amuse themselves as much as they

491
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: can from it, which is even worse, you know, because

492
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: they're torturing this poor guy mentally.

493
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we should point out too that you know,

494
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: Wiseman showed scenes like this, but it wasn't it wasn't

495
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: like a indictment on the people who work there, because

496
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: he did also show some parts where there was some caretaken.

497
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: I mean, what was your like, I haven't seen the

498
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: whole thing since college, so what was your net net

499
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: on that?

500
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: So? I think the thing that I got from it

501
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: was that Wiseman treats everybody as human and equal in

502
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: that he's not expressing like empathy necessarily, he's not trying

503
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: to even get you do to empathize or sympathize. He's

504
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 2: not trying to get you to form an opinion. He's

505
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: just showing you what he found right. And if he

506
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: is trying to get you to form an opinion, it's

507
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: so obtuse that it's tough to put your finger on.

508
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: In retrospect, maybe maybe you respond exactly the way he

509
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 2: wanted you to, but he's not very rarely does he

510
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 2: like hammer you with it. So yeah, I feel like

511
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: he just treats everybody the same. Like there's a guy,

512
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: there's a patient who talks about all of the children

513
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: he's raped, and he knows that it's bad. He knows

514
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: that it's like that, like what he's doing is wrong

515
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: and he can't help himself. But there's like Wiseman makes

516
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: no effort to make this man seem despicable or evil

517
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: or anything like that. He might as well be talking

518
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: about like a car he's thinking about buying. Yeah, for

519
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,479
Speaker 2: how Wiseman portrays it, And so like, if he's treating

520
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: that guy equal, he's definitely treating like the guards and

521
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 2: the clinical staff and everybody equally. But I think more

522
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: than that, he just turns the camera on and lets

523
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: them behave as they're going to behave. He lets them

524
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 2: present themselves to you, rather than him trying to manipulate

525
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: it so that you see what Wiseman I want you

526
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: to see.

527
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's the purest form of cinema verite,

528
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: which you know, it's interesting how conditioned we are to

529
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: even hearing an ominous musical score during a scene where

530
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: a guy might talk about crimes like that, and when

531
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: all that's stripped away, like it can be like more

532
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: unsettling I think than hearing that creepy score totally. It

533
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: reminds me then this is certainly not the same thing.

534
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: But we went to a Cleveland Indians baseball game one

535
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: time when Emily's family still lived in Ohio, and it

536
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: was this throwback game where they didn't do any modern

537
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: things at all, and you don't really think about that.

538
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: You're like, when was a baseball game? What do they do? Like?

539
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: All they had was the organ player and the announcer going,

540
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 1: you know, all off the bat number five, so and

541
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: so so and so awesome, man done that you didn't

542
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: play a song when they came up that the batter

543
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: picked out. They didn't have the home depot hammer and

544
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: nail and shovel chase each other around the field between

545
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: innings and a race. They didn't. You know, there's you

546
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: don't realize when you go to a pro sports game

547
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: of all the extra boy, especially in an NBA game, sure,

548
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: all the extra stuff that's there until it's gone. And

549
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: it was really really weird. I liked it. Our family

550
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: was like, I'm bored, and I was like, I think

551
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: this is kind of cool.

552
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: Did they have jacks at least?

553
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I mean they sold this stuff and it

554
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: wasn't throwback prices, of course, but it was. It's weird

555
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: when you're so conditioned though, kind of like with film,

556
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: just to background noise and just sort of the things

557
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: that we hear in movies, lighting or a camera move

558
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: or you know, cinema verite is all about sort of

559
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: just locking that camera down or handholding it. Sometimes when

560
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 1: all that artifice is gone, it can have a reverse

561
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: effect that all the artifice has like you're using it for.

562
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think in addition to what is added

563
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: to kind of manipulate you emotionally or unconsciously. There's also

564
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: a lot that's removed, a lot of reality that's removed,

565
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: like the background noise. If they put background noise in,

566
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: it's folly artists, it's not the actual background noise that

567
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: was there when they were filming. Yeah, that's not what

568
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: Wiseman does. This film is replete with disturbing background noise,

569
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: like televisions that are on that you can't see, other

570
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: people's conversations that you can't make out what they're saying.

571
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: The lighting he uses is only the lighting at Bridgewater.

572
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: He doesn't use any of his own light. It's all

573
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: whatever it's called available light. And Yeah, when you just

574
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: kind of watch it, you're like, this is just like

575
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: looking in on real life, which makes what you're seeing

576
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: all the more disturbing because, in addition to almost being there,

577
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: you almost feel guilty, especially if you have half a

578
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: conscience of witnessing the stuff that you're seeing, because you're

579
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: seeing some of these people like Jim when he's taken

580
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: back to his cell after those guards got a rise

581
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: out of him while he was being shaved, he's naked,

582
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 2: fully naked, stomping around, Yeah, basically throwing a tantrum trying.

583
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: You can tell he's trying to calm himself down. This

584
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: is how he's like getting out his anger, and Wiseman

585
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: just sits there and films the whole thing. Yeah, and

586
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: you're forced to watch as the viewer. You're I saw

587
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: somebody put it. It's basically like you're the one standing

588
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: in the doorway. Even after the guards have left, you're

589
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: still standing there watching this man in one of the

590
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: probably one of the several worst points of his recent life,

591
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: just gawking at him, basically, and it's it's that's the

592
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: hard part of it for sure.

593
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Or you know, at the other end of the spectrum,

594
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: there's a scene with a guy named Vladimir, and this

595
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: guy is very lucid, and he's speaking very clearly about

596
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think my my, I've deteriorated since i've

597
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: been here. I think all this noise that you're hearing,

598
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: all these TVs that are always turned on full blast,

599
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: it's sort of driving me crazy. And I would like

600
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: to go back to prison where I actually could work

601
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: out in a gym and I could take classes. And

602
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: this medication that they're giving me is making me worse,

603
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: Like I feel that it's harming me. And when he's

604
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: you know, when the guards take him out of the room,

605
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: then there's a scene of the clinicians like discussing things,

606
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: and it's sort of like sounds like we need to

607
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: up his medication and his tranquilizers because he's paranoid. So

608
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: when you see something like that, it's sort of the

609
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum from Jim equally disturbing. But

610
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: part of the beauty of this and the rawness of

611
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: this film is like, these people are all into here together. Yeah,

612
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: he's never lost on you.

613
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: His is a particularly sad case. Yeah, because you can tell,

614
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: like you no, he's with it. This guys. He knows

615
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: what he's saying. He's not trying to manipulate. He's pleading

616
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: his case in a logical way. He's trying so hard

617
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: not to get worked up. How would you not get

618
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: worked up when you're when you're pleading your case to

619
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: be released from a mental institution from somebody who's just

620
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 2: taking you as as you know, nuts, So why should

621
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: you be listened to? There's even one of the one

622
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: of the medical staff at that meeting after he leaves

623
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: the room and they're discussing him, she says, what did

624
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: she say? She's like, if you take his basic premise

625
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: as true, then everything he says from that is totally logical.

626
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: But of course his basic premise is total hogwash or whatever.

627
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: She says something like that. I'm paraphrasing. So it's like

628
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: that guy never had a chance. He just wasted his breath.

629
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: He just like they they were never going to listen

630
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: to him, And it's like red, yeah, yeah, what was

631
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: he not supposed to be there? He was supposed to

632
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: be there, wasn't he?

633
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but every time he came up for parole,

634
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: he would plead his case and they would deny it,

635
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: and then and finally in the end he was like,

636
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter what I say in here,

637
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: you're not gonna let me out anyway. That's my Morgan Freeman.

638
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: But that's sound a little more like boss Hog un tranquilizers.

639
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: What yeah, that was boss Hog sedated. Oh man, let's

640
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: hear it again.

641
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: No, no, I can't.

642
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: Maybe Jerry can edit that.

643
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: I can't have a new mom. Morgan Freeman again one

644
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: of the great voices. But uh yeah, he basically says,

645
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: you know, institutionalized you're not You're not gonna let me

646
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: out no matter what I say. And of course that's

647
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: when they let him out, because it's a dramatic film

648
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: and with a great, wonderful, happy ending, not like titty

649
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: cut follies.

650
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: No one other thing that I think we should point

651
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 2: out too, for people who haven't seen the movie, Like

652
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: we know Vladimir's name in Jim's name, just because it

653
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: comes up like in discussion, like they're calling him Jim,

654
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: or somebody addresses Vladimir's Vladimir. There's no chiron at the

655
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: bottom of the screen says Vladimir or Jim. There's no

656
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: no one explaining how Jim got here or what Vladimir did.

657
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: There's no nothing, Nothing is explained. It's just here's a scene.

658
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 2: Here's another scene. Here's another scene, here's another scene. Nothing

659
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: necessarily leads into anything else. There's one part that scene

660
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: that Wiseman says he regrets because it was so he

661
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 2: calls it ham fisted. Where there's it's really hard to watch.

662
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: It is the main doctor, the main clinician, who's a

663
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: recurring character whose name we have no idea who it is,

664
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: at least if you just watch the movie he force

665
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: feeds a patient who stopped eating and through with a

666
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: naso gastric tube stuff down knows all the way into

667
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: his stomach. And this guy is just stoically taking this,

668
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 2: like he's decided he is not going to eat. They

669
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: even give him a choice, They like, you can drink

670
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: the super you're gonna we're gonna force feed you. And

671
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: he's like, you're gonna have to force feedback. I don't

672
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: even think he says anything. So there's a there's a

673
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: force feeding scene. You watch an emaciated man who's starving

674
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 2: himself force fed, and he intercut that part with scenes

675
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: from the man's preparation for burial right to kind of

676
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: show like, you know, he didn't make it, he was

677
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: successful in ending his own life through starvation. And then

678
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: also I think what Wiseman was trying to get across

679
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: was that he was, you know, he's really being cared for.

680
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: He's given like a decent burial and like I think

681
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 2: eight that he has eight pallbearers from the institution and

682
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: he's like treated very well compared especially to this this

683
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: force feeding through a tube down his nose. And Wiseman

684
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: thought that was a little ham fisted. That is, that

685
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: is the most cinematic part of the entire movie. Nothing

686
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 2: else is anywhere remotely like that. It's all just seen, seen,

687
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 2: scenes seen, and like no explanation of who these people are,

688
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: what they are trying to say.

689
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: All right, should we take a break? Yeah, all right,

690
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: we'll take our second break and be back right after this,

691
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: so before we talk about the sort of court cases

692
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: in the whether or not this film could be banned

693
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: or exhibited. It's interesting you talk about like it's just seen, seen, seen,

694
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: But on the flip side of that, it is like

695
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: a such a carefully curated edit from all those hundreds

696
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: of hours of footage down to eighty three minutes. And

697
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that Weissman sort of talked

698
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: about was he didn't apparently he didn't. I don't know

699
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: if he came around, but he didn't even like the

700
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: term cinema verite because he felt it sounded too much

701
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: like you were just shooting stuff and putting it in

702
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: front of people. And he said, I am manipulating people.

703
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: But it's through the edit. So while you may not

704
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: think that, I mean, I guess he was a master

705
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: at it, because you probably shouldn't feel manipulated. But he's

706
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: still putting together that careful edit. You know, it's interesting.

707
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: He is a master edit and it's pretty remarkable. This

708
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: was his first film and he was that masterful at it.

709
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

710
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: So I said earlier that it was crucial that he

711
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: had gotten permission to film, not only from you know,

712
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: the Lieutenant governor in the Superintendent of Bridgewater, but also

713
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 2: from everyone he shot. He got either written permission from

714
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: them or verbal permission audio visual I guess, on camera

715
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: them giving him permission to use them in his film.

716
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 2: So he was covered up in permission. And don't forget

717
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: he was a law professor too. And when the movie

718
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: first came out, when he finished, he showed it to

719
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: the Superintendent of Bridgewater and to the Lieutenant governor. They

720
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: both apparently liked it, according to Wiseman, But it wasn't

721
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: until the movie came out into wider release at the

722
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 2: very beginning I think New York Film Festival or something

723
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, and people started responding by saying, like,

724
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: this is barbaric, this treatment at Bridgewater, what's wrong with

725
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: the state of Massachusetts that they suddenly turned on the

726
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 2: film and Wiseman had on his hands what would come

727
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: to become a banned film.

728
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the central players here is Elliott Richardson,

729
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: who was that lieutenant governor you referenced at the time,

730
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: had a loftier political aspiration, so when it came time

731
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: to run for an office higher than that, tried to

732
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: suppress this film, thinking it would you count against him,

733
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: and it became sort of like O Livy calls it

734
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: a political tool, that's exactly what it became. Richardson would

735
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: end up accusing Wiseman of double crossing this, and it

736
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: all sort of hinged on the idea, not like, oh,

737
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: you showed these awful things, but it hinged on the

738
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: idea of permissions in privacy was sort of the legal

739
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: framework of it, because the argument was, sure, you might

740
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: have gotten the permission from these men, but they are

741
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: in no state to give real permission. And so there

742
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: were a series of court cases over the years that

743
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: sort of debated this, like for many many years. In

744
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: sixty eight, it was a judge, spirit court judge named

745
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: Harry Callous who found that it breached privacy. And this

746
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: was interesting though, because like, I get that as a

747
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: legal basis for argument, but this judge said he kind

748
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: of attacked the filmmaking process and said it's just a

749
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 1: hodgepodge of sequences with no narrative, and said each viewer

750
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: is left to his own devices as to what's being

751
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: portrayed and in what context. And in the meantime, Weisman's

752
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: over there going to a duh, Like that's what cinema

753
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: verite is. But I thought that was like this judge

754
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: just said you should destroy that should like ordered it

755
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: to be destroyed.

756
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. He also called it a nightmare of ghoulish obscenities

757
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: and said the negative has to be burnt and judge judge, yeah,

758
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: And of course Wiseman was like, well, I'm not burning

759
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: my negative. I'm going to fight this and appealate.

760
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: Oh sure.

761
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: That case, by the way, was the first one in

762
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: Massachusetts history where a court affirmed that a right to

763
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: privacy exists. Yeah, it had never been affirmed in a

764
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: court case, and it was established in that case. So

765
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: it was it was. It was not cut and dried, though,

766
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: because Wiseman has First Amendment right to freedom of expression.

767
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: So it became freedom of expression versus freedom of privacy

768
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: or right to privacy, I should say, And it the

769
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 2: I think the ACLU got involved and they formed it.

770
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: They submitted an amicus brief that basically said, we think

771
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: that this film has value, but to a very limited

772
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: number of people, specifically lawyers, judges, law students, medical students, psychiatrists,

773
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: people in those fields should be able to see this

774
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: and that is about it. And so that kind of

775
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: became the ruling shortly after that initial you need to

776
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: burn the negatives an appeal, that's what they came up with.

777
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so for a number of years after that,

778
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: for those reasons, it was shown in like film class,

779
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: it was shown in medical schools, it was shown in

780
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: the library. Yeah, it was shown in libraries that was

781
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: a great place to see something like this, or in

782
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: different institutions would show this and say this is what

783
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: not to do, like you can't do stuff like this.

784
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: There was a believe and this was sort of through

785
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: the seventies and then in the eighties some attorneys got

786
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: involved that said there were some suicides at Bridgewater in

787
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: the mid to late eighties, there were some class action

788
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: lawsuits that followed by patients where the attorneys that they

789
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: could draw a direct line basically between a patient dying

790
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: by suicide and the fact that this film wasn't shown,

791
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: like it should be allowed to be shown for these reasons.

792
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, like had it been shown, there would have been

793
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 2: a public outcry for more reforms, and that wouldn't have

794
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: led you know, those reforms might have prevented those suicides

795
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: at Bridgewater. And so Wiseman said that he never gave

796
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: up on the film being released to a wider audience,

797
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: and he saw that that was a good time to

798
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: bring this up again, and it actually worked out. He

799
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: got a judge to basically say, like, okay, this is

800
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: a Yes, you should be able to show this, but

801
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 2: we need to blur the faces of the men out,

802
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: and Wiseman said, it's impossible. This is film, it's not video.

803
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: And then also work with me here man, right, he said, Also,

804
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: it'll artistically ruin my film. Yeah, but you remember when

805
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: we did that one gorilla filming in the supermarket, we

806
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 2: ended up having to go back. I can blur every

807
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: single thing in the supermarket aut exo for us. I

808
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 2: kind of screwed it up a little bit. I could

809
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: see where he's coming from, right, And so he appealed

810
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: again and finally they said, you know what, not a

811
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: single inmate at Bridgewater, and none of their families has

812
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: ever filed a formal objection to this film being shown,

813
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 2: So how about this just show it. It's unbanned officially

814
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: by the early nineties.

815
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: Right, that was a ninety one with Judge Andrew Gilmeyer

816
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, and then after that

817
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: it was still because Weisman is, like I said earlier,

818
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: very picky about house films are exhibited, and so it

819
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: wasn't like it was just everywhere. I think PBS aired

820
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: it in ninety three in full. You could always buy

821
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: the DVD from him from his website or if there

822
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,959
Speaker 1: was a film festival or a film class, like I said,

823
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: when I saw it was in college film class from

824
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: a VHS tape that the professor owned, probably bought it

825
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: from Weisman, and that's sort of how it lived its life.

826
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting that like this still is a

827
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: relevant topic and irrelevant film, and you know, is being

828
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: talked about today, like in twenty twenty two. I think

829
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen he even tried to or I think

830
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: he successfully finally got it on a streaming service called

831
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: Canopy with a K, which is also kind of through

832
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: the library system, which is awesome.

833
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can watch it for free if you sign

834
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 2: up for a Canopy account with your library card number. Yeah,

835
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: you can go watch I think all of Wiseman's films

836
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: all forty eight, which is pretty great. But there seems

837
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 2: to have been some direct effects of the film on Bridgewater,

838
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 2: but still from what it sounds like, there's still a

839
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 2: long way to go with Bridgewater too.

840
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they made a lot of strides, and

841
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: then they found even as recently as this year that

842
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: they were using what they call chemical restraints, basically just

843
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: oping people up more than they said they were doing.

844
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: So this is ongoing there. And then we Wispan, like

845
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 1: you said, made forty eight films and they had names

846
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: like hospital or high school, and it's just sort of

847
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: that very bare bone cinema verite look at a single

848
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: topic that's sort of been his bread and butter. I

849
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: think it's a really cool thing.

850
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really cool. He's just fascinated with institutions,

851
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: although he even says he has no idea how they work,

852
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: and I think he's even said he's not quite sure

853
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: he understands his film himself. Yeah, which is pretty awesome.

854
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: To say.

855
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Zuppora Films is named after his wife, who

856
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: passed away a couple of years ago at the age

857
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: of ninety. And he's, like you said, still going strong.

858
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. What's his latest one City Hall?

859
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: Yeah about Boston City Hall.

860
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it came out in twenty twenty.

861
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: Pretty cool.

862
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to know more about Tidny Cut Follies,

863
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: you should probably go watch it, but be warned it

864
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: is really rough, even though it is great. In the

865
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: term of a cinema file, I would use it. How

866
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 2: about that a centopis I always add an extra syllable,

867
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: so that, of course means it's time for listener mail.

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00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to call this follow up on the effective altruism.

869
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: One of our favorite things is when we talk about

870
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: a topic and someone from that topic gets in touch

871
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: and as a listener, yeah for real, And that's what

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00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: happened in this case with Grace Adams. Hey, guys, we

873
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: are so excited that you covered effective altruism and you

874
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: did so wonderfully and graces with giving what we can.

875
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: Giving what we can. Would love to give your listeners

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00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: a free book on effective altruism if you include this

877
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: link in the show notes, which we don't have, but

878
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: we'll just say here people can opt to have a

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00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: free book sent to them, including the precipice by Toby

880
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: Ord anywhere in the world. We love sending out books

881
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: and things is a great way for people to engage

882
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: more at the ideas. Wishing you all the best from

883
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: a big personal fan, Grace Adams And oh I should

884
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: have made this into a bit lead Should I do

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00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 1: that real quick?

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00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

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00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: All right, so you just talk to people while I

888
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: do that.

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00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 2: Okay, well, hey, everybody.

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00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: Actually could edit this together.

891
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 2: But Toby Ord wrote in and said the same thing too.

892
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: But he also sent us well wishes and said we

893
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: did a good job on the effective Altruism episode, which

894
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 2: I thought was pretty good because I like to think

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00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: we're fairly fair handed with it. We weren't too over

896
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: the top a subjective, don't you think?

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00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: I think so, although we did get one email from

898
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: someone that's like kind of acted like we didn't point

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00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: out any of the downsides, which I disagree with.

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00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 2: I disagree with that. But anyway, how's that Bitley coming, Chuck?

901
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: Okay, my friend, I am done. I have the bit lee.

902
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: If you go to bit b T dot L y

903
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 1: slash s y sk give you can get your free book.

904
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 2: Yes, pretty great free books on effective altruism and free

905
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: books by Toby Ord on existential risks, which I mean,

906
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: come on. If you want to get in touch with us,

907
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 2: like Grace from GiveWell did, we would love to hear

908
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: from you. You can send us an email whether you

909
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 2: want to give away free books or not. It's okay.

910
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 2: You don't have to send it off to Stuff Podcasts

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00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.

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00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

914
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows