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Speaker 1: Pushkin. So I was riding in my car. I'm driving

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Speaker 1: and this klansman was sitting in my passenger seat and

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Speaker 1: we got on the topic of a crime, and he

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Speaker 1: made the mention that black people are born with a

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Speaker 1: gene that makes them violent. And I said, look, I'm

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Speaker 1: as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never

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Speaker 1: done a drive by or a car jacking. How do

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Speaker 1: you explain that this man did not hesitate one second?

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Speaker 1: He answered me instantly, he said, your gene is latent.

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Speaker 1: It hasn't come out yet. That's Darryll Davis, a blues musician.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you heard him right. He's driving in his

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Speaker 1: car with a number of the Ku Klux Klan. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next

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Speaker 1: to me with all smug and secure. Huh. You see,

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Speaker 1: you know you have nothing to say. And I thought

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Speaker 1: about it for a moment rather than attack him, you

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Speaker 1: say it's not true. It's not true. I said to him,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, white people have a gene within

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Speaker 1: them that make them serial killers. And he said, why

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Speaker 1: would you say that. I said, well, face it, name

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Speaker 1: me three black serial killers. He thought about it. You

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Speaker 1: couldn't name anybody, you couldn't do it. I rattled off

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy,

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, David burklewot son of Sam Albert de Salvo,

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Speaker 1: the Boston Strangler. And I said, Son, you are a

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Speaker 1: serial killer. And he said, Darrell, I've never killed anybody.

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Speaker 1: I said, you're Gina's leg and hasn't come out yet.

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Speaker 1: He said, well, that's stupid, and I said, well, duh,

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Speaker 1: it is stupid. And he got very, very quiet, and

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Speaker 1: I could tell that the gears in his head were

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Speaker 1: spinning super fast, probably burning a hole in there. And

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Speaker 1: then he a moment later he changed the subject. But

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Speaker 1: within five months this guy quit the Ku Klux Klan.

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Speaker 1: Since that car ride thirty years ago, Darryl Davis has

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Speaker 1: gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the

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Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind

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Speaker 1: their view of reality is one of the most elusive,

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Speaker 1: coveted types of change, which is why Darryl's story feels

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Speaker 1: so improbable. So how does he do it? I'm maya

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Speaker 1: shunker as a cognitive scientist. I've always been fascinated by

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Speaker 1: how we change our minds and why we change our minds.

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Speaker 1: On this show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who

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Speaker 1: have navigated extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get

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Speaker 1: us to think differently about change in our own lives.

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Speaker 1: This is a slight change of plans. Darrel didn't set

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Speaker 1: out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused

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Speaker 1: on his music. But one night his life took an

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Speaker 1: unexpected turn when he was playing a show at a

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Speaker 1: bar called the Silver Dollar Lounge. The Silver Dollar Lounge

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Speaker 1: at the time was an all white lounge, and I

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Speaker 1: say that not meaning that black people could not go in,

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Speaker 1: but meaning that they did not go in by their

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Speaker 1: own choice because they were not welcome there. And when

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Speaker 1: you go somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is

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Speaker 1: being served, sometimes it has not made for a good combination,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're out numbered. So we took a break

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Speaker 1: after the first set, and I was walking across the

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Speaker 1: dance floor to go sit you with the bandmates when

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Speaker 1: somebody approached me from behind and put their arm around

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Speaker 1: my shoulder. No, I don't know anybody in this place,

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Speaker 1: so I'm turning around to see who's touching me? And

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Speaker 1: it was this gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me,

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Speaker 1: and he's all excited. He says, man, I sure like

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Speaker 1: your piano playing. This is the first time I ever

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Speaker 1: heard of black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis.

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Speaker 1: And I told him, I said, well, Jerry Lee got

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Speaker 1: it from the same place I did, from black blues

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Speaker 1: and boogie woogie piano players. Oh no, no, no no, no,

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Speaker 1: I never heard no black man play like that. So

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Speaker 1: for you, Jerry Lee invented that style. I said, look,

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Speaker 1: I know Jerry Lee Lewis. He's a good friend of mine.

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Speaker 1: He's told me himself where he had learned how to play.

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Speaker 1: The guy didn't buy that either, but he was so

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Speaker 1: fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back

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Speaker 1: to table. He's going to buy me a drink, so

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Speaker 1: I don't drink, but I agreed to have a cranberry juice.

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Speaker 1: He bought it, paid the waitress, and then he took

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Speaker 1: his glass and he clinked my glass and cheered me,

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Speaker 1: and then he announces, you know, this is the first

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Speaker 1: time I ever sat down with a black man and

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Speaker 1: had a drink so innocently I asked him why, and

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Speaker 1: he didn't answer me at first. I asked him again,

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Speaker 1: and his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him and

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Speaker 1: said tell him, tell him, And the guy looked at

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Speaker 1: me and said, I'm a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

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Speaker 1: Well I burst out laughing at him because now I

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Speaker 1: do not believe him. I thought he was putting the

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Speaker 1: joke on me. I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket,

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Speaker 1: pulls out his wallet, flips through it, and hands me

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Speaker 1: his clan membership card. I recognized the clan insignia, which

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Speaker 1: is a red circle with a white cross and a

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Speaker 1: red blood drop in the center of the cross, and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking myself, oh my goodness, you know this is

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Speaker 1: for real. So I stopped laughing. But he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: very friendly and very appreciative of my music and all excited.

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Speaker 1: He gave me his phone number to you know, to

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Speaker 1: call him whenever I was to return to this bar

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Speaker 1: with this band, and so I'd called him every six

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Speaker 1: weeks and say, hey, man, you know, I'm down there

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Speaker 1: at the Silver Dollar this weekend coming out. You say,

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Speaker 1: it's so nonchalantly like, so I called the guy. It

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Speaker 1: is remarkable that you called this person. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I'm alone in struggling to understand you know,

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Speaker 1: what was going through through your mind at this moment.

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Speaker 1: If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan,

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Speaker 1: I would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd

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Speaker 1: probably just flee the scene. And I think this is

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Speaker 1: for pretty good reasons. Well, you know, I was questioning

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Speaker 1: myself for a second, like what the heck am I

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Speaker 1: doing sitting here with a Klansmen. But the guy was friendly.

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Speaker 1: He disputed the things that I had in mind of

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Speaker 1: the image over typical klansmen, and he wanted to share

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Speaker 1: my music with some of his fellow klansmen clans women.

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Speaker 1: And they would you get on the danceloor and dancelore

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Speaker 1: on music. You know, they didn't come in robes and

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Speaker 1: Hood's right, you know, they came in you know, regular

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Speaker 1: street clothes. This goes on for a year, an entire year.

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Speaker 1: Darrell would play a gig at this bar, and he

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Speaker 1: would invite clan members to watch him play. This is

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Speaker 1: one of those things that makes Darrell so unusual. I mean,

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Speaker 1: for me, a huge part of what makes someone who

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Speaker 1: they are is their belief system. And so if we

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Speaker 1: share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great.

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Speaker 1: But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist,

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Speaker 1: that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So

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Speaker 1: how does Darrell look past that? He says, it's not

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Speaker 1: like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to

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Speaker 1: learn from it. See, Darrell had spent his early childhood

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Speaker 1: overseas in a school he describes as a United Nations

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Speaker 1: for little kids. Race was always in the background, but

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Speaker 1: when he moved back to the States when he was ten,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't escape races, and ever since then he's been

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Speaker 1: interested in why people hate. I had had an experience

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Speaker 1: at the age of ten where some racist people throw

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Speaker 1: rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which

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Speaker 1: I was the only black participant, and never having had

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Speaker 1: this happened to me before, I was perplexed as to

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Speaker 1: why people were doing this, and when later my parents

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Speaker 1: explained that it was racism, my ten year old brain

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Speaker 1: could not process the idea that someone who had never

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Speaker 1: seen me before, who had never spoken with me, and

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Speaker 1: knew nothing about me, would want to inflict pain upon

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Speaker 1: me for no other reason than the color of my skin.

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Speaker 1: You know that just did not compete with me. Well, later,

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Speaker 1: when I realized this was true, there are people like that,

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Speaker 1: I formed a question in my mind, which was, how

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Speaker 1: can you hate me when you don't even know me?

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Speaker 1: And some people would just say, well, Darryl, you know

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Speaker 1: that's just the way it is. Well, no, it's not

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Speaker 1: just the way it is. There has to be a

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Speaker 1: reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That

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Speaker 1: was not good enough for me. I wanted to get

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Speaker 1: to the nuclear of it. So Darryll dedicates himself to

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Speaker 1: answering this question. He devours books about race and racism.

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Speaker 1: He reads nearly every book that exists on the Klan,

156
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Speaker 1: but he's still unsatisfied, so he decides he wants to

157
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Speaker 1: write his own book about the clan. All the books

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Speaker 1: written on the clan except for mine, have been written

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Speaker 1: by white authors. You know, white authors obviously have an

160
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Speaker 1: easier time getting in contact with the clan and sitting

161
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Speaker 1: down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever, or they

162
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Speaker 1: might even join the clan undercover. A clansman would have

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Speaker 1: a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person

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Speaker 1: than he would a white person. And how do you

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Speaker 1: feel that perspective would have been different because he's sitting

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Speaker 1: there telling the person that he hates why he hates them.

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Speaker 1: So now he's having to face me and face those

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Speaker 1: same questions you know that somebody would ask, or even

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Speaker 1: different questions that a white interviewer journalist would not ask

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Speaker 1: because they don't think of him, because they don't feel

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Speaker 1: the things the same things that I feel. As Darrell

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Speaker 1: starts researching for his book, it suddenly dawns on him

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Speaker 1: he already knows someone in the clan, that guy from

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Speaker 1: the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on a mission

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Speaker 1: to track him down. It takes a while, but eventually

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Speaker 1: he finds the guy's address and I knocked on the door,

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Speaker 1: you know, unannounced, and he opens the door and sees me, goes, Darrell,

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Speaker 1: you know what are you doing here? And look, he

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Speaker 1: looked up and down the hallway to see if I

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Speaker 1: brought anybody with me. So it was more of him

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Speaker 1: that who was intimidated than me. And when he stepped

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Speaker 1: out of his apartment, I stepped in. So he turns around,

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Speaker 1: comes back in. So now we're standing inside his apartment

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Speaker 1: and he says, you know what's going on? Are you

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Speaker 1: still playing. What's going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah,

186
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Speaker 1: I'm still playing. But listen, I need to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about the clan. He says, the clan. I said, yeah.

188
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Speaker 1: He goes, well, I quit. I quit a while back.

189
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Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, where's all your clan stuff?

190
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Speaker 1: He says, well, they came and got it. And I said,

191
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Speaker 1: what do you mean they came and got your robe hood?

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Speaker 1: You know, don't you own it? And he explained to me,

193
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Speaker 1: when you join the clan, if you have the money

194
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Speaker 1: to pay for it, you can purchase your robin hood

195
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Speaker 1: and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford

196
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Speaker 1: it at the time, you can still take it home

197
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Speaker 1: with you, but you put a little extra money in

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Speaker 1: every time you pay your dues until you pay it off,

199
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Speaker 1: sort like layaway kind of thing. A bizarre financial lead

200
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Speaker 1: system within the clan. Love it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity

201
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Speaker 1: for everyone who's racist, that's right, okay, absolutely so. Anyway,

202
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Speaker 1: he said that they came and got it, but when

203
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Speaker 1: they came to get it, he could not find the mask,

204
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Speaker 1: and he has since found it and he needed to

205
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Speaker 1: return it. I said, what can I see it? So

206
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Speaker 1: he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me

207
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Speaker 1: the mask, and I said to him, I said, do

208
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Speaker 1: you know Roger Kelly. He goes, yeah, Roger was my

209
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Speaker 1: Grand Dragon. I know him. And I said, well, listen,

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Speaker 1: I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly.

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Speaker 1: I want you to interview him. I'm going to write

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Speaker 1: a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how

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Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand these terms.

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Speaker 1: We would call a state leader a governor. They call

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Speaker 1: that the Grand Dragon a mayor. That person is known

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Speaker 1: as the exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very the self importance that these names true, that's yeah.

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Speaker 1: But see that's also what attracts people because you know,

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Speaker 1: they get titles, they feel important. Yes, it's a sense

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Speaker 1: of self importance, you know, because they're not getting that

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Speaker 1: from the society in which they live. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: this brotherhood, this gang, if you will, gives him those things.

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Speaker 1: So at the time, Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon

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Speaker 1: state leader from Maryland. So I said, I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what you need to return this mask, right, he said yeah.

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Speaker 1: I said, give me Roger Kelly's phone number and his

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Speaker 1: address and I'll go and return it for you. And

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Speaker 1: he snatched that thing right out of my hand and said,

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Speaker 1: in no way. And so I begged and plead it

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Speaker 1: with him. Well, he finally gave it to me on

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Speaker 1: the condition that I not revealed him mister Kelly where

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Speaker 1: I got it. And he warned me that Darrell, do

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Speaker 1: not go to Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will kill you.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, that's that's the whole reason why

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Speaker 1: I need to talk to mister Kelly. I know, why

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Speaker 1: would he kill me? What is going on in his

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Speaker 1: mind when he sees me. I have to understand this.

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Speaker 1: You did realize that you might not get the answer

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Speaker 1: to the question if, in fact the dangerous part happened first, right, true,

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Speaker 1: this is true. But but I but I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know that I would I would prevail. I'm the

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Speaker 1: eternal optimist. If you will, Well, I am not the

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Speaker 1: eternal optimist. And Darrell's decision feels incredibly risky. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: he has a secretary, Mary, call and schedule the interview,

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Speaker 1: and he gives her one important instruction, do not tell

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Speaker 1: him that I'm black, and see if you would consent

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Speaker 1: to sitting down and giving her boss an interview. I figured,

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Speaker 1: you know, he might pick up in my voice that

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Speaker 1: I'm black, and uh. I didn't want him to hang

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Speaker 1: up the phone say am I talking to you, and

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Speaker 1: my whole project would have ended before they ever got started.

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Speaker 1: Roger Kelly agrees to meet for an interview one evening

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Speaker 1: at a nearby motel. Darrel gets to the motel early

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Speaker 1: with Mary. He's not sure if Roger will even agree

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Speaker 1: to step foot in the room, but if he does,

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Speaker 1: Darrel wants to be hospitable. He asked Mary to fill

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Speaker 1: up the ice bucket and buy some sodas, and then

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Speaker 1: they start arranging the room. There's not much to arrange.

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Speaker 1: There's the ice bucket, a table, two chairs, and Daryl's

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Speaker 1: canvas bag which has his tape recorder and a Bible.

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Speaker 1: The clan claims to be a Christian organization, and they

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Speaker 1: claim that the Bible preaches are racial separation. Now, in

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Speaker 1: my reading of the Bible, I have never seen anything

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Speaker 1: like that in there. So I want to be able

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Speaker 1: to pull up my Bible and hand it to him

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Speaker 1: and say, here, mister Kelly, please show me chapter and

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Speaker 1: verse where it says blastomed whites must be separate. So

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Speaker 1: I'm all prepared right right on time, right to the minute.

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Speaker 1: Five fifteen knock, knock, knock on the door. In it's

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Speaker 1: what is known as the Grand Nighthawk. Night Hawk means

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Speaker 1: bodyguard security. He's dressed in military camouflage and he has

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Speaker 1: that clan patch on his chest on one side, on

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Speaker 1: the other side of his chest or the initials cakak

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Speaker 1: and embroidered on his cap and said Knights of the

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Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan, and on his hip. He had a

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Speaker 1: semi automatic handgun in a holster. He comes in, Mister

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Speaker 1: Kelly is walking directly behind him, carrying a briefcase in

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Speaker 1: a dark blue suit and tie. And the night Hawk

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Speaker 1: turned the corner and saw me and just froze in

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Speaker 1: his trap. So mister Kelly slammed into his back and

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Speaker 1: knocked this guy forward. And now that they both are

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Speaker 1: stumbling around trying to regain their balance, and they're like

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Speaker 1: looking all around the room like somebody's not right here.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just sitting at the table looking at their faces,

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Speaker 1: and I could read their faces like a billboard. Their

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Speaker 1: faces were saying to me, did the desk give us

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Speaker 1: the wrong room number? Do do we misunderstand something or

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Speaker 1: is this an ambush? So you know, I saw the apprehension,

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Speaker 1: and so I stood up and I displayed both of

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Speaker 1: my palms to show I had nothing in my hands,

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Speaker 1: and I walked forward. I extended my right hand and

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Speaker 1: I said, Hi, mister Kelly, I'm Darryl Davis. We'll be

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Speaker 1: right back with a slight change of plans. You're listening

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Speaker 1: to a slight change of plans. I'm Maya Shunker. So

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Speaker 1: there they are, Roger Kelly, the grand Dragon of the Clan,

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Speaker 1: face to face with Darrell Davis. Daryl reaches out to

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Speaker 1: shake Roger's hand and Roger shakes his hand back. It

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Speaker 1: seems like the interview is going to happen, but before

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Speaker 1: he can dive in with his first question, Roger asked

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Speaker 1: to see Darryl's ID. So Darrel hands in his driver's

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Speaker 1: license and then he looks at it and he says, oh,

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00:17:10,516 --> 00:17:12,916
Speaker 1: you live on such and such a street. And so

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Speaker 1: now I'm wondering, why is this man reading my address?

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Speaker 1: You know, is he gonna come burn across at my

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Speaker 1: house or you know what? So that had me a

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Speaker 1: little concerned, but I didn't want to let him know

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Speaker 1: that he had rattled me a little bit, and so

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Speaker 1: I said to him, I said, yes, mister Kelly, that

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Speaker 1: is where I live and you live at and I

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Speaker 1: named his house number and his street. It's a pretty

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Speaker 1: good mic drop line. Yeah, because you know, if you

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Speaker 1: come visit me, I'm going to come and visit you.

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Speaker 1: So you know, maybe it's better that we just confine

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Speaker 1: all of this visiting to this motel room. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: we started with this interview that this is the actual

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Speaker 1: cassette tape from the meeting. Okay, first, what got you

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Speaker 1: interested in in the q clux Klan. I was always

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Speaker 1: interested as a kid, you know, when I was going

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Speaker 1: to school, I was interested. I was fascinated by the

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Speaker 1: Rachel was a rogues across burning and things like hey

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Speaker 1: and did yeah family and the clan. I was like

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Speaker 1: a friend introducer to the clan ran mothers in the

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Speaker 1: plan year ago. You know, we be and talking and

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Speaker 1: every time my cassette would run out of tape, I'd

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Speaker 1: reach down into my bag to get a fresh cassette,

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Speaker 1: or if mister Kelly tried to make some biblical point,

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Speaker 1: I'd reach down in my bag and put out the Bible.

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Speaker 1: The night hawk was standing to mister Kelly's right at

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Speaker 1: full attention, and every time I reached down, the nighthawk

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Speaker 1: reached up to his gun. Well after about an hour

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Speaker 1: or so, the bodyguard relaxed, he realized there was no

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Speaker 1: threat in the bag, and I went in and out

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Speaker 1: of the bag. He didn't move a little over an

334
00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:43,996
Speaker 1: hour into this, mister Kelly and I were just have,

335
00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:47,996
Speaker 1: you know, casual conversation, and there was a quick, short

336
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Speaker 1: noise that occurred out of nowhere. It sounded like this,

337
00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,796
Speaker 1: And because it came out of nowhere suddenly, and it

338
00:18:57,836 --> 00:19:00,556
Speaker 1: was so fast and so short, my ear could not

339
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Speaker 1: discern it. So I perceived it to be a threatening noise.

340
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Speaker 1: I knew that mister Kelly had made this noise. How

341
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Speaker 1: did I know that? Because I didn't make it, and

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Speaker 1: I feared for my life. I'm not armed, My secretary

343
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Speaker 1: is not armed. The only person who I know for

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00:19:18,516 --> 00:19:21,356
Speaker 1: sure is armed is the nighthawk. I can see his

345
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Speaker 1: gun on his hip. I don't know if mister Kelly

346
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Speaker 1: carries one up under his suit jacket or not. All

347
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Speaker 1: I know is, you know, I don't want to die.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking right into mister Kelly's eyes I mean, I'm

349
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Speaker 1: just like inchested away from him, and his eyes were

350
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Speaker 1: fixated on mine. Mine were fixated on his. Neither one

351
00:19:37,916 --> 00:19:40,556
Speaker 1: of us said a word. My eyes were saying to him,

352
00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:44,036
Speaker 1: what did you just do? And I realized his eyes

353
00:19:44,036 --> 00:19:46,356
Speaker 1: were saying to me, what did you just do? And

354
00:19:46,396 --> 00:19:48,676
Speaker 1: the nighthawk was looking back and forth between both of us,

355
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Speaker 1: like would either one of y'all just do well. Mary

356
00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:55,516
Speaker 1: was sitting to my left on top of the dresser

357
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Speaker 1: because there were no more chairs in the room, and

358
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Speaker 1: she realized what had happened, and she began explaining it

359
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Speaker 1: to us. When it happened again, the ice in the

360
00:20:07,516 --> 00:20:11,436
Speaker 1: ice bucket had begun and the cans of soda pop

361
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Speaker 1: were shifting down the ice. Wow. And then, of course

362
00:20:15,316 --> 00:20:17,796
Speaker 1: when she explained it and it happened again, you know,

363
00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:20,396
Speaker 1: we all began laughing. We all began laughing at the

364
00:20:20,436 --> 00:20:25,596
Speaker 1: same thing. Everybody in that room became human in that moment.

365
00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:30,436
Speaker 1: We all feared, We all feared each other. Somebody could

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Speaker 1: have gotten shot over an ice cube, all right, Just

367
00:20:34,036 --> 00:20:38,796
Speaker 1: think about that for a second. After this interview, Daryl

368
00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:42,396
Speaker 1: and Roger keep in touch. Daryl is still curious about

369
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Speaker 1: Roger's perspective and how it might answer the question Daryl's

370
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Speaker 1: been asking for decades, how can you hate me if

371
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Speaker 1: you don't even know me? And now the two weren't

372
00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,396
Speaker 1: actually getting to know each other. Was there a point

373
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Speaker 1: where you thought, hey, wait a second, I might actually

374
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Speaker 1: be able to get this Roger Kelly guy to change

375
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Speaker 1: his mind about this. Here's a thing, Maya. I never

376
00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:09,556
Speaker 1: set out to change anybody, not the first time, any means,

377
00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:12,716
Speaker 1: because you know, I never expected anybody to change. All

378
00:21:12,756 --> 00:21:15,236
Speaker 1: I wanted to know was how can you hate me

379
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Speaker 1: when you don't even know me? As all I want

380
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Speaker 1: to know? And I never expected to see these people again.

381
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Speaker 1: But when you're sitting there, one on one with somebody,

382
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Speaker 1: it's hard to hate them as a human being. It's

383
00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:29,636
Speaker 1: hard to hate them, and it's hard for them to

384
00:21:29,676 --> 00:21:32,236
Speaker 1: hate you, even though they may try. But was there

385
00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:35,076
Speaker 1: something specific that he did or that he said where

386
00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:38,956
Speaker 1: you saw that there was an end? Yeah. I began

387
00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:45,916
Speaker 1: noticing changes in in his behavior, in his language. He'd

388
00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:48,996
Speaker 1: been to my house. His bodyguard would come with him initially,

389
00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:51,196
Speaker 1: and we would have lunch or dinner at my table.

390
00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:53,956
Speaker 1: I never got invited to his house. But then when

391
00:21:53,956 --> 00:21:57,876
Speaker 1: he became Imperial Wizard. He began inviting me to his house,

392
00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:00,916
Speaker 1: and already he was coming down to my house without

393
00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:04,116
Speaker 1: without his bodyguard. He trusted me that much. This goes

394
00:22:04,156 --> 00:22:08,676
Speaker 1: on for over five years. Eventually Roger quits the clan,

395
00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:11,996
Speaker 1: but he doesn't simply step down and hand it over

396
00:22:12,076 --> 00:22:16,196
Speaker 1: to someone else. He shuts down his entire chapter, and

397
00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:19,116
Speaker 1: he cites his friendship with Darryl as being the reason

398
00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:23,356
Speaker 1: Daryl since inspired over two hundred people to leave white

399
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Speaker 1: supremacist groups. And Darryl's story of changing people's minds doesn't

400
00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:30,316
Speaker 1: end there. He's still doing this kind of work today

401
00:22:30,476 --> 00:22:32,716
Speaker 1: all over the world. And I wanted to dig in

402
00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:36,036
Speaker 1: deeper on his approach. I know you don't like saying

403
00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:38,676
Speaker 1: that you change people's minds, right, You inspire them to

404
00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:40,876
Speaker 1: change their own minds. So when it comes to inspiring

405
00:22:40,916 --> 00:22:43,436
Speaker 1: them to change their own minds, did you have to

406
00:22:43,476 --> 00:22:45,996
Speaker 1: adapt your approach at all when when dealing with different

407
00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:50,636
Speaker 1: types of folks? Absolutely, because you know, just like if

408
00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:54,236
Speaker 1: somebody you know, you're a musician and you play violin,

409
00:22:54,476 --> 00:22:56,356
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you're right handed or left handed,

410
00:22:56,476 --> 00:23:01,516
Speaker 1: left handed, hey shout out at Some people are wired

411
00:23:01,556 --> 00:23:04,276
Speaker 1: left handed. Some people are wired right handed. It doesn't

412
00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,076
Speaker 1: make one person better than the other, It just happens

413
00:23:07,076 --> 00:23:11,396
Speaker 1: to be how they're wired. Likewise, how we make decisions

414
00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:15,236
Speaker 1: depends upon how we're wired. Some people are wired to

415
00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:20,596
Speaker 1: make decisions based upon their emotions. Others make decisions based

416
00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:25,316
Speaker 1: upon their logic. So first you determine how does somebody

417
00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:31,436
Speaker 1: decide something. If they if they make decisions based upon emotion,

418
00:23:31,996 --> 00:23:34,796
Speaker 1: then there's no way in heck you're going to get

419
00:23:34,836 --> 00:23:37,156
Speaker 1: to get them to see your point if you bring

420
00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:40,996
Speaker 1: a logical perspectives. The same thing if you if you're

421
00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:43,916
Speaker 1: dealing with a scientist or somebody who deals in data

422
00:23:43,956 --> 00:23:47,676
Speaker 1: and logic and evidence, don't come with an emotional argument.

423
00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:49,516
Speaker 1: You know, then I' even going to listen to you.

424
00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,636
Speaker 1: Show them the data, show them the stats, the test results.

425
00:23:52,836 --> 00:23:55,116
Speaker 1: So you know, you have to go to where they are.

426
00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:58,796
Speaker 1: And oftentimes we miss that, we don't understand that because

427
00:23:58,796 --> 00:24:01,796
Speaker 1: we haven't taken the time. I've seen it happen time

428
00:24:01,836 --> 00:24:06,676
Speaker 1: and time again. So a clansman comes comes into my

429
00:24:06,796 --> 00:24:10,516
Speaker 1: room to be interviewed or whatever we meet. As soon

430
00:24:10,556 --> 00:24:13,476
Speaker 1: as he or she sees me, the wall goes right up.

431
00:24:14,636 --> 00:24:19,196
Speaker 1: You cannot impart any intelligent information to them when their

432
00:24:19,236 --> 00:24:21,476
Speaker 1: wall is up, because when their wall is up, their

433
00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:24,236
Speaker 1: ears are plugged and they're shutting you out. Your mission

434
00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:28,396
Speaker 1: is to bring the wall down. So I'm sitting there

435
00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:31,196
Speaker 1: two feet from the guy, and he's telling me that

436
00:24:31,316 --> 00:24:35,196
Speaker 1: I'm a criminal and that I'm lazy, and that I'm unintelligent,

437
00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:39,356
Speaker 1: basing all of this based on my black skin. So

438
00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:44,356
Speaker 1: when he's done radiating all this vitriol, his wall has

439
00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:47,636
Speaker 1: come down because I haven't pushed back, and he's curious

440
00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:49,916
Speaker 1: as to why I haven't pushed back, because he's so

441
00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:53,676
Speaker 1: accustomed to being pushed back on and so now I've

442
00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:57,156
Speaker 1: thrown him off his game and he wants to know, well,

443
00:24:57,436 --> 00:25:00,036
Speaker 1: how do I feel about all this? I could go

444
00:25:01,076 --> 00:25:04,556
Speaker 1: on the offense and attack him verbally and say, no,

445
00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,876
Speaker 1: you are the criminal. You are the ones hanging black

446
00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:11,276
Speaker 1: men from trees and bombing black churches and dragging black

447
00:25:11,316 --> 00:25:13,476
Speaker 1: men behind pickup trucks, and I would be a one

448
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:16,836
Speaker 1: hundred percent correct. But rather than go on the offense,

449
00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,276
Speaker 1: because if I did that, that wall will go right

450
00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:21,356
Speaker 1: back up and he wouldn't hear a word I'm saying.

451
00:25:21,716 --> 00:25:24,156
Speaker 1: Instead of going on the offense, I go on the

452
00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:29,116
Speaker 1: defense and Maya hear's what happens. He goes home and

453
00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:30,796
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like we all do,

454
00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:34,196
Speaker 1: we reflect on what transpired during the day before we

455
00:25:34,236 --> 00:25:37,076
Speaker 1: go to bed. He thinks, Man, you know, I had

456
00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:40,436
Speaker 1: a three hour conversation today with a black guy, you know,

457
00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:42,196
Speaker 1: and we didn't come to blows. You know, we might

458
00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:44,116
Speaker 1: have gotten a little loud, but we didn't come to blows.

459
00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:48,476
Speaker 1: And in most cases with me, most people have changed

460
00:25:48,516 --> 00:25:52,276
Speaker 1: their perspectives. So I don't think many people in their

461
00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:54,716
Speaker 1: everyday lives are going to be interacting with members of

462
00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:58,716
Speaker 1: the clan, obviously, but many of us, many listeners of

463
00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:03,076
Speaker 1: this podcast, do encounter racism and prejudice on a daily basis.

464
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:05,876
Speaker 1: And you know, when I first heard about your story,

465
00:26:05,996 --> 00:26:09,796
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, if this man can convince clan members

466
00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:13,356
Speaker 1: to leave, than anything is possible. But it feels like

467
00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:15,996
Speaker 1: maybe things are a little bit more complicated than that, right,

468
00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:19,396
Speaker 1: Because in order to get someone to be less racist,

469
00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:23,436
Speaker 1: a necessary step is for them to identify that they

470
00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:27,356
Speaker 1: are in fact being racist. And clan members are already

471
00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:31,436
Speaker 1: brazen and celebratory in their racism. But if you were

472
00:26:31,476 --> 00:26:34,116
Speaker 1: to challenge a mom or a dad who says in private,

473
00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:36,876
Speaker 1: you know that they prefer if their daughter not marry

474
00:26:36,876 --> 00:26:40,036
Speaker 1: a black man. They might not be willing to acknowledge

475
00:26:40,276 --> 00:26:43,516
Speaker 1: this prejudice within themselves. And so I'm curious to know

476
00:26:43,556 --> 00:26:46,196
Speaker 1: what advice you'd give to people who are trying to

477
00:26:46,196 --> 00:26:52,876
Speaker 1: help those around them simply acknowledge their own prejudices by

478
00:26:52,996 --> 00:26:55,796
Speaker 1: sending down saying, hey, let's let's not have a debate,

479
00:26:56,156 --> 00:26:59,556
Speaker 1: let's have a conversation. Like for example, just the other day,

480
00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:03,836
Speaker 1: a very good friend of mine his fellow musician, and

481
00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:06,636
Speaker 1: we both like music of the fifties, you know, Elvis Presley,

482
00:27:06,716 --> 00:27:10,996
Speaker 1: Jeff Berry, all that stuff. And he posted on Facebook,

483
00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:15,756
Speaker 1: I wish we could return to the mindset of the fifties,

484
00:27:16,196 --> 00:27:18,796
Speaker 1: and all these people, you know, gave him a thumbs

485
00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:21,196
Speaker 1: up and likes and all that kind of stuff. So

486
00:27:21,356 --> 00:27:25,116
Speaker 1: I saw it and I wrote on there, hmm, dot

487
00:27:25,156 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 1: dot dot. I said, maybe we should return bring back

488
00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:32,636
Speaker 1: the music, maybe bring back some of the cool cars,

489
00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:35,996
Speaker 1: and definitely some of the low prices, but perhaps not

490
00:27:36,036 --> 00:27:39,396
Speaker 1: the mindset. And see, and that's a whole different perspective.

491
00:27:39,676 --> 00:27:41,996
Speaker 1: You will never hear black people talk about the good

492
00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:45,876
Speaker 1: old days because we didn't have good old days, you know.

493
00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,156
Speaker 1: And you know I loved the music of the fifties.

494
00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:50,716
Speaker 1: But what I want to go back to that era? No,

495
00:27:51,316 --> 00:27:53,476
Speaker 1: because in that era I would have to be drinking

496
00:27:53,516 --> 00:27:55,716
Speaker 1: from a separate order fountain, riding in the back of

497
00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:58,636
Speaker 1: the bus, not being served in certain restaurants. I don't

498
00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:00,076
Speaker 1: want to go back to that. But see if that

499
00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:02,396
Speaker 1: didn't even occur to him, Why I did it not

500
00:28:02,436 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: occur to him because he has white privilege, and you know,

501
00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:09,156
Speaker 1: it was just a plain ignorance. So I had to

502
00:28:09,596 --> 00:28:12,116
Speaker 1: just point it out to him. He wasn't trying to

503
00:28:12,156 --> 00:28:14,516
Speaker 1: be offensive or anything like that, He just didn't know.

504
00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:19,036
Speaker 1: How do you think about the difference between labeling behaviors

505
00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:22,596
Speaker 1: as racists versus people as racist, and how that difference

506
00:28:22,596 --> 00:28:28,236
Speaker 1: in focus might affect people's ability to change. You put

507
00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:32,236
Speaker 1: a label on somebody, they tend to carry it. It

508
00:28:32,916 --> 00:28:35,996
Speaker 1: damages them. And if they have paid their price that

509
00:28:36,036 --> 00:28:38,076
Speaker 1: you know, they've given that up. They should not have

510
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:40,956
Speaker 1: to wear that label anymore. We need to break them

511
00:28:40,956 --> 00:28:45,476
Speaker 1: from that. Otherwise, what do they have left? How do

512
00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:50,316
Speaker 1: they feel whole? You know, we can't do that to people.

513
00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:54,356
Speaker 1: During my time at the Obama White House when we

514
00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:58,436
Speaker 1: were designing reentry guides for people who are leading prison

515
00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 1: we made sure not to use labels like ex convicts

516
00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:05,436
Speaker 1: or ex prisoners and instead use forward looking language like

517
00:29:05,716 --> 00:29:08,956
Speaker 1: community members. And this was basic on the idea that

518
00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:12,956
Speaker 1: people often act in ways that's strongly align with their

519
00:29:12,996 --> 00:29:15,796
Speaker 1: social identities, and you know, they can often feel fixed

520
00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:19,836
Speaker 1: in those identities. Yes, like, if they've paid the price,

521
00:29:20,076 --> 00:29:25,356
Speaker 1: they have accepted responsibility and accountability, then why should we

522
00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 1: label them that way? Label them ask to what they

523
00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:33,516
Speaker 1: are at the time. Daryl's now working with the State Department.

524
00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:36,556
Speaker 1: They send him on trips to Israel, India and other

525
00:29:36,596 --> 00:29:39,876
Speaker 1: countries to talk about prejudice and bigotry and how to

526
00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:44,036
Speaker 1: tackle the deep inequities of race, class, and cast He

527
00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:48,236
Speaker 1: also gives dozens of lectures a year at universities and I'll,

528
00:29:48,316 --> 00:29:50,156
Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the lecture, I'll do

529
00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:52,836
Speaker 1: a Q and A. There'll be some students standing off

530
00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:55,836
Speaker 1: in the distance, not doing anything. It's kind of milling around.

531
00:29:56,276 --> 00:29:58,716
Speaker 1: When the crowd dissipates and goes away from the podium,

532
00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:01,556
Speaker 1: he or she will then approach me and they'll like,

533
00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:04,116
Speaker 1: look around, make sure nobody's with an ear shot and

534
00:30:04,156 --> 00:30:07,676
Speaker 1: they'll say, oh, you know, I enjoyed your lecture, mister Davis.

535
00:30:07,956 --> 00:30:10,196
Speaker 1: You know I was raised that way. My mother is

536
00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:13,316
Speaker 1: in the clan, or my father's a neo Nazi. You know,

537
00:30:13,356 --> 00:30:15,396
Speaker 1: this is how how I grew up. But now I'm

538
00:30:15,476 --> 00:30:19,876
Speaker 1: here at University of whatever and m my my my

539
00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:24,756
Speaker 1: boyfriend h is Jewish or my girlfriend is black, and

540
00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:27,276
Speaker 1: I can't bring I can't bring that person home. My

541
00:30:27,276 --> 00:30:29,756
Speaker 1: parents will kill me or you know, or they'll disown me.

542
00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:32,596
Speaker 1: And how do they go home and tell their parents

543
00:30:32,756 --> 00:30:36,436
Speaker 1: that their parents were wrong? You know, their parents wanted

544
00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:38,796
Speaker 1: them to go and get an education, but they didn't

545
00:30:38,796 --> 00:30:42,356
Speaker 1: want them to get that education. So they've got this

546
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:45,956
Speaker 1: secret burning on their chest. You know that just has

547
00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:48,716
Speaker 1: to come out. And I'm one of the perfect persons that,

548
00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:51,036
Speaker 1: you know that they can talk to about it. And

549
00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:53,236
Speaker 1: I'll sit down and talk with them and you know,

550
00:30:53,316 --> 00:30:55,156
Speaker 1: give them some advice and things like that and try

551
00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:57,276
Speaker 1: to smooth things out for them. You know, he help

552
00:30:57,316 --> 00:30:59,996
Speaker 1: them out. Um. You know, I get a lot of

553
00:30:59,996 --> 00:31:02,756
Speaker 1: those kinds of emails. Guys, you want me to talk

554
00:31:02,756 --> 00:31:04,876
Speaker 1: to their brother, or some kid wants me to talk

555
00:31:04,876 --> 00:31:06,996
Speaker 1: to their parents, or some wife wants me to talk

556
00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:10,156
Speaker 1: to her husband. We need something like a race anonymous

557
00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:14,236
Speaker 1: kind of thing, And I'm planning on having a museum

558
00:31:14,276 --> 00:31:16,916
Speaker 1: one day. In my museum, I'm going to have a

559
00:31:16,956 --> 00:31:20,596
Speaker 1: component for people to come and talk about, you know,

560
00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:24,476
Speaker 1: racist spouses or racist parents, or racist siblings or something

561
00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:27,476
Speaker 1: like that, so there will be an outlet for them

562
00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:31,316
Speaker 1: and hopefully, hopefully that can be replicated around the country.

563
00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:34,676
Speaker 1: We spent so much of this interview talking about how

564
00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:38,716
Speaker 1: you inspire changing others, and I'm wondering how this whole

565
00:31:38,756 --> 00:31:42,796
Speaker 1: experience changed you. I I just thought I'd meet these people,

566
00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:45,596
Speaker 1: get my information, write my book, and be done, never

567
00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:49,356
Speaker 1: see them again. What what you and I and everybody

568
00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:52,956
Speaker 1: else has heard as children is this. A tiger does

569
00:31:52,956 --> 00:31:55,876
Speaker 1: not change his stripes, a leopard does not change his spots,

570
00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:58,836
Speaker 1: So why would we think that a clansman would change

571
00:31:58,836 --> 00:32:03,036
Speaker 1: his ideology? You know, people are who they are. But

572
00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:05,436
Speaker 1: when somebody started changing, and then it happened again and

573
00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,636
Speaker 1: again and again, I realized I was onto something. So

574
00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:11,836
Speaker 1: what can what can be learned can also be unlearned.

575
00:32:12,916 --> 00:32:15,396
Speaker 1: I cannot stop doing this work, so I'm making just

576
00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:18,756
Speaker 1: as much time between my music and doing this kind

577
00:32:18,756 --> 00:32:21,756
Speaker 1: of work because I love my country and I want

578
00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:24,996
Speaker 1: to see it improve. We spend too much time in

579
00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:29,276
Speaker 1: this country talking about the other person, talking at the

580
00:32:29,316 --> 00:32:33,236
Speaker 1: other person, and talking past the other person. I prefer

581
00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:36,236
Speaker 1: to talk with the other person and that has been

582
00:32:36,276 --> 00:33:00,916
Speaker 1: the key to my success. Hey, thanks for listening. See

583
00:33:00,956 --> 00:33:03,876
Speaker 1: you next week for my conversation with comedian and actress

584
00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:07,196
Speaker 1: Tiffany Hattish Girl. If I hadn't gone through all the

585
00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:09,436
Speaker 1: stuff that I've been through, I would not be funny

586
00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:12,956
Speaker 1: at awe Like if you think about it, like everything

587
00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:14,996
Speaker 1: that I am capable of, that how am I able

588
00:33:15,036 --> 00:33:29,196
Speaker 1: to access it? Comes from all of the tragedy. A

589
00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:32,396
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created an executive produced by

590
00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:36,276
Speaker 1: me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,

591
00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:40,876
Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and

592
00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:45,836
Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior

593
00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:49,756
Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben

594
00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:54,116
Speaker 1: Taliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also to Louise Gara who

595
00:33:54,116 --> 00:33:56,676
Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange

596
00:33:56,716 --> 00:34:01,316
Speaker 1: the vocals. Incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course

597
00:34:01,476 --> 00:34:04,996
Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow

598
00:34:04,996 --> 00:34:18,876
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. So, Daryl,

599
00:34:18,916 --> 00:34:21,276
Speaker 1: one of the things that really captivated me on a

600
00:34:21,316 --> 00:34:24,316
Speaker 1: personal level about your story is that you are a musician.

601
00:34:25,676 --> 00:34:27,916
Speaker 1: I was also a musician in the younger part of

602
00:34:27,956 --> 00:34:31,636
Speaker 1: my life, and I studied classical violin. Okay, if I

603
00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:33,876
Speaker 1: have to correct you on something. You said that you

604
00:34:33,916 --> 00:34:36,556
Speaker 1: were a musician, let me tell you Something's a musician,

605
00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:39,316
Speaker 1: always a musician. So you're still a musician. Oh I

606
00:34:39,356 --> 00:34:44,116
Speaker 1: love that. Thank you. I think my technique would would

607
00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:46,836
Speaker 1: violate that assumption, but I think in my heart I

608
00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:48,076
Speaker 1: am a musician. I'll give you that