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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: today is a special episode and because of that, I'm

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Speaker 1: not you're off the hook, Samantha. I'm not gonna ask

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Speaker 1: a big question of the day, but I have so many.

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Speaker 1: You have the best questions, um and usually somewhat related

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Speaker 1: as opposed to my questions, which is, I'm just hungry,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about food. So okay, I can't. I

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Speaker 1: love your questions, but all right, keeping on going. We

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Speaker 1: do have a very special episode because it's time for

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Speaker 1: another Sminty book Club, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 1: Nicole Chung's book All You Can Ever Know, a memoir

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Speaker 1: which was suggestion by Samantha. Yes. It tells the story

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Speaker 1: of Chung's experience with transracial option as a Korean who

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Speaker 1: was adopted into a white Catholic family and raised in

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Speaker 1: a very white town. The title refers to something her

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Speaker 1: adoptive mother told her about her adoption and her birth family,

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Speaker 1: that it may be all you Can Ever Know, And

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Speaker 1: it deals with themes of family, identity, adoption and all

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Speaker 1: of the complexities within those things. Yeah, and today is

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Speaker 1: a special one because we got to have an interview

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Speaker 1: with the author, and it was such a great interview, Um,

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Speaker 1: and I loved every moment of it, So thank you, Nicole.

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Speaker 1: But stick around for that because it is a big

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Speaker 1: portion of the show. We talked about this book in

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Speaker 1: depth and just kind of the the behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: and just kind of some of the thought processes with it. Yes, yes, Um,

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Speaker 1: but briefly we did want to give an overview. The

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Speaker 1: plot essentially follows Chung throughout her life growing up in Yes,

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Speaker 1: a religious family that believed her to be a gift

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Speaker 1: from God through adulthood, and her decision to seek out

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Speaker 1: her birth parents as she starts a family of her own.

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Speaker 1: Her first pregnancy is inter mind with her making contact

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Speaker 1: with her birth family right so as a child, when

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Speaker 1: Chung asked about her adoption, her parents always told her

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Speaker 1: the same story, a series of events that were the

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Speaker 1: will of God that led them to finding her and

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Speaker 1: adopting her. UM. And she was born premature. So that

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Speaker 1: is a big portion of the plot in her life.

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Speaker 1: Is that is how I would say, that's strange to

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Speaker 1: think of someone's life as a plot, but I said,

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Speaker 1: I mean, every everyone's life is a stage. So the

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Speaker 1: adoption happened very quickly, and it was a close adoption,

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Speaker 1: which meant that legally the birth parents were not supposed

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Speaker 1: to make contact with the birth child or the family rights.

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Speaker 1: Chung's time in school was marked by loneliness and isolation.

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Speaker 1: Um the only she was the only non white child

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Speaker 1: in her class. Her adoptive parents were color blind, which

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Speaker 1: is the term you probably recognize if you've been listening

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Speaker 1: to our previous But clubs would also just you know,

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Speaker 1: paying attention to what's all the conversations happening around um,

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Speaker 1: And in that way, they did not give her the

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Speaker 1: tool was to talk about racism or even really understand

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Speaker 1: it and her experiences with it. She writes about how

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Speaker 1: in many ways her adoptive parents were unprepared to raise

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Speaker 1: a Korean child. They also didn't have many answers for

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Speaker 1: Chunge when she asked for any information about her birth family.

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Speaker 1: So this led her to wonder why her birth family

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Speaker 1: gave her up if she mattered to them at all,

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Speaker 1: what were they like if they thought about her at all?

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Speaker 1: She went searching for any information she could find in

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Speaker 1: her house, and she discovered a letter indicating her birth

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Speaker 1: mother had reached out to her, and her adoptive parents

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Speaker 1: had not told her, so some of the chapters I

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Speaker 1: actually told from the point of view of Cindy, who

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Speaker 1: we find out as the book goes on, is Nicole's

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Speaker 1: birth sister. Their birth parents had told Cindy and Um

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Speaker 1: their other half sister Jessica, that Nicole had died at birth.

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Speaker 1: As Nicole gets older, she becomes sort of an adoption ambassador,

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Speaker 1: although it's kind of a theme throughout her life, collecting

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Speaker 1: stories and answering questions for people who are looking at

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Speaker 1: transracial adoption, and in doing so starts arriving at questions

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Speaker 1: of her own. She meets her husband and becomes pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and the questions get louder when she realizes she can't

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Speaker 1: really fill out the medical history. She starts the process

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Speaker 1: of reaching out to them, filing paperwork and scraps of

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Speaker 1: information as her pregnancy progresses, until just as her child

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Speaker 1: is born, she hears from her birth father and learned

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Speaker 1: she has a birth sister, Cindy, who was abused by

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Speaker 1: her birth mother. Cindy and her birth mother are estranged

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Speaker 1: and her birth parents are divorced. Um Nicole also learns

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Speaker 1: that yes, she has this step sister. Her birth father

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Speaker 1: especially regret at putting her up for adoption, explaining that

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Speaker 1: her birth mother had wanted a boy, that they didn't

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Speaker 1: have the money for sick child as Nicole was expected

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Speaker 1: to be, and later that she was abusive and he

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Speaker 1: believed adoption to be the best thing for Nicole. So

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Speaker 1: this clash with the story China told herself about her

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Speaker 1: birth family, UM and now it was complicated with abuse

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Speaker 1: and concerns that she was unprepared be a mother herself.

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Speaker 1: But it's a beautiful story because she starts in a

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Speaker 1: relationship with Cindy, her sister, one that goes on to

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Speaker 1: be close and loving. UM. It starts from emails and

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Speaker 1: to shared photos, to phone calls and eventually meeting in person.

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Speaker 1: They sharing their lives with each other, and she does

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Speaker 1: go on to form a tentative relationship with her birth

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Speaker 1: father and his new wife, a relationship she does not

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Speaker 1: keep from her adoptive parents. And it's really beautifully written

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Speaker 1: and moving and UM, as I was reading it, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: I've heard echoes of so many things you've told me

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Speaker 1: that you've shared with me, and um, I, it's also

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Speaker 1: so relatable to anyone, UM because I related to it too,

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Speaker 1: and during this interview that we're about to share, it

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Speaker 1: was really beautiful for me to kind of just sit

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Speaker 1: back and listen to you bond and and have this

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Speaker 1: more in depth conversation as you do have shared experiences

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Speaker 1: and and Nicole is very clear that you can't like

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Speaker 1: everybody's experience is different to their own life, but they're

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Speaker 1: just certain circumstances um that even though I can relate to.

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Speaker 1: It was really lovely for me to to kind of

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Speaker 1: sit back and let you have that space, let you

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Speaker 1: both have that lovely conversation, right, I will say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: our stories definitely the beginning, and she talks a little

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Speaker 1: bit about origin stories and the beginnings. Um though it

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Speaker 1: was different for her and I. She had the unusual

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Speaker 1: circumstances of being born in the US and her biological

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Speaker 1: parents being immigrants in the US and then being adopted

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Speaker 1: after the fact, as opposed to where I was adopted

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Speaker 1: from Korea while I was at an orphanage and was

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Speaker 1: at a young age six seven years old before I

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Speaker 1: came to the U S. So that was different. But

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Speaker 1: the whole internal monologue that she had growing up and

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Speaker 1: seeing her differences with the rest of our community was

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Speaker 1: so familiar and so too real and vivid for me

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Speaker 1: that it was really nice to have a moment just

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Speaker 1: kind of dissecting which what each other had experienced. Almostn't

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Speaker 1: around the same time because she and I are similar

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Speaker 1: in age, but she was in closer to Portland's Ish

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Speaker 1: and I was in Georgia. But having that similarity with

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Speaker 1: very different atmospheres, it was comforting at the same time,

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Speaker 1: it was very shockingly honest. Yeah. Yeah, and we're so

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Speaker 1: so glad um that she reached out and we were

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Speaker 1: able to do this interview. So without further build up,

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Speaker 1: let's get into the interview. But first let's get into

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Speaker 1: a quick break for word from our sponsor. And we're back.

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Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So let's take it away. So we

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Speaker 1: have someone very special here today our little book club

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say little, should I for our gigantic book club,

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Speaker 1: with our people's, with our cementy people's. Um, we have

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Speaker 1: Nicole Chung, author of all you can ever know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about this, so welcome Nicole. Yes, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. I'm really glad to be here. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie when we started talking about our

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Speaker 1: next book, I was very excited to pick this one

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Speaker 1: up because obviously this is very personal for me as

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Speaker 1: an adoptee from Korea, so all my Korean people, yeah, um.

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Speaker 1: So having you even respond when I put up our

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Speaker 1: posts about our book club made me so excited. And

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Speaker 1: so we want to thank you for taking the time

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Speaker 1: to sit down because we are we're sitting down on

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Speaker 1: the interwebs, right is that this is what it's called

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Speaker 1: the vir down and talking with us about your book.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't mind, can you introduce yourself and

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your book? Sure, somebody's

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Speaker 1: Nicole Chung. I'm the author of The More All You

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Speaker 1: Can Ever Know. It's my first book. I'm also the

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of Catapult Magazine. And I grew up

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Speaker 1: in Oregon, small town, very white in southern Oregon. I

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Speaker 1: tell people it's like five hours from Portland and six

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Speaker 1: hours from San Francisco, just to give you a sense.

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Speaker 1: It is truly in the middle of nowhere. And the

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Speaker 1: book is about growing up adopted in a white family

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Speaker 1: in a very like white community, and what happened when

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Speaker 1: I grew up and decided to search for my Korean

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Speaker 1: birth family as an adult um and this is a

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Speaker 1: search that coincided with the birth of my first child,

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Speaker 1: So I mean, it was it was very strange to

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Speaker 1: have those two things happening at the same time, Like

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Speaker 1: the family was just changing in in so many ways

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Speaker 1: and really like being redefined for me. So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to write about it, and that's where this book came from.

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Speaker 1: Even though your story and my story are fairly different,

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Speaker 1: it was so comforting to see us having the similar

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Speaker 1: conversations and similar thought process, especially when we were ch

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Speaker 1: chidren Um. You you talk a lot about in your

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Speaker 1: book about realizing that you are different and having we

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Speaker 1: always know because obviously white Korean doesn't obvious um, but

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Speaker 1: having people say it to our faces, and instead of

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Speaker 1: being in our comfort zone with our family where we're

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Speaker 1: isolated and being told you know, you're part of the

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Speaker 1: family or part of the family, which is nice to hear,

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Speaker 1: but then coming outside of that, having mean little children

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Speaker 1: the same things that you don't want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: You're like, what the hell did you just say to me?

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Speaker 1: And yeah, not not even just getting it from kids,

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Speaker 1: but from adults. I mean, like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make assumptions about your experience. But like I write about

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Speaker 1: in the book, I mean, we had exchanges in the

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Speaker 1: grocery store with total strangers, and it would come up

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Speaker 1: with like substitute teachers calling role. So it was definitely

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Speaker 1: like this thing that was a just a constant source

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Speaker 1: of questioning and conversation and sometimes in ways that felt

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Speaker 1: really intrusive, you know, from people of all ages, like

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Speaker 1: throughout my childhood. And as you point out, like it's

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Speaker 1: so different the difference between like knowing, of course you

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Speaker 1: look different from your family, and then going out of

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Speaker 1: that safe space if your home is a safe space,

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Speaker 1: like going out into the world and and suddenly realizing

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Speaker 1: like I'm also different from all these people, and like

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Speaker 1: having them call attention to it in different ways. Right, um.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't want to ask you because obviously for

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Speaker 1: me it was very personal and very vulnerable to see

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Speaker 1: it in writing in someone else's experience. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think it is important that you shared your story and

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Speaker 1: your experiences? Oh gosh, I mean, I just think we

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Speaker 1: need more adoption stories by adoptees in general. I mean

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Speaker 1: certainly not just mine, and it's not alone. There are

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Speaker 1: definitely others out there that I think it's in dialogue with,

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Speaker 1: but like by and large, the sort of mainstream conversation

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Speaker 1: like discourse. I know, we have probably like a love

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Speaker 1: hate relationship with that word. But the narrative, like the

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Speaker 1: overall mainstream adoption narrative, I think, is so dominated by

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Speaker 1: like adoptive parents who tend to be white, when like

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Speaker 1: most people in this country who are adopted is a

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Speaker 1: lot of us are people of color. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like industry voices, like adoption professionals, there's lawyers, you

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Speaker 1: know that, social workers. You've got everybody in the mix,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it feels like the voices that are missing

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Speaker 1: are really the voices of the adoptees, for whom it

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Speaker 1: is like a deeply personal, lived experience. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to tell this story, you know, not because I think

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Speaker 1: it's like representative at all of like all adoption stories,

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Speaker 1: all transracial adoptees, not even all Korean adoptees. And fact,

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Speaker 1: for various reasons, my situation is really atypical because I

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Speaker 1: wasn't actually born in Korea. My birth parents were immigrants.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I just really feel strongly that like

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Speaker 1: we need more stories by adoptees out there, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I read so many books as a kid, like

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Speaker 1: in some cases looking for myself, or families like mine,

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Speaker 1: or just like multicultural, multiracial families in general. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's getting better, but there certainly weren't, like you know,

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Speaker 1: there's certainly wasn't the volume of those types of stories

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Speaker 1: that I would have wanted growing up and coming of

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Speaker 1: age and even moving into adulthood. So I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just hoped that it would be one more addition to

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Speaker 1: different genres that I think need expanding. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: was in college before I read my first memoir by

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Speaker 1: an Asian American woman, and so I think, I think

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Speaker 1: there's just like a lot of space for like a

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Speaker 1: lot of different types of stories, and it's it's just

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Speaker 1: one more that I helped means something to people. But

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Speaker 1: that's the thing is that it's not one more. Is

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Speaker 1: one added because there's not enough representation in general. So

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Speaker 1: we have representation, but it's already so small for women

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Speaker 1: of color and specific the Asian women. But then even

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Speaker 1: talking about the economy of being an adoptee is even

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Speaker 1: smaller and almost of fetishized in a weird, weird save

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Speaker 1: your way, that you needed a breakdown, and I think

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Speaker 1: I really appreciated how open and vulnerable you were and

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Speaker 1: willing to talk about those situations. Um, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to come back because you are a writer. You're

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Speaker 1: not just you know this Korean girl is chalking about

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Speaker 1: you're a writer. You're in and you've been a writer.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like since you're a child, Like you're talking

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Speaker 1: about how you had to make up your own worlds

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Speaker 1: and create your own characters so you felt represented. So

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Speaker 1: you created it. Um for this book and for writing

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Speaker 1: in general, what is your process in writing? Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I barely remember having a writing process, if I'm really honest.

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Speaker 1: There are also huge swaths of this book I don't

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Speaker 1: remember writing like I swear I did, but like it's

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Speaker 1: just kind of a big blur, you know. I started

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Speaker 1: it in like the months right before and then right

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Speaker 1: after the election, like there were it was in a

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Speaker 1: great time. I mean, this is not a great time,

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Speaker 1: but that was also not a great time. I remember

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Speaker 1: putting it down for three months and like barely opening

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Speaker 1: it and feeling like every time I opened it, oh,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't matter, and like kind of closing it so,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's always kind of a fraud process, and

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Speaker 1: that two kids, I've got a full term job, and

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Speaker 1: so a lot of this was just kind of crammed

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Speaker 1: in the margins. I mean I would write like every

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Speaker 1: evening for months on end. I would spend at least

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Speaker 1: half the weekend like writing. Lots of days my husband

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Speaker 1: would take the kids out of the house, like on

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Speaker 1: a Saturday, They'd be gone all day. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what they did. They would come back at night. I'd

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Speaker 1: be in the same position. He'd be like did you eat?

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Speaker 1: Did you drink? Like how we moved and I so,

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Speaker 1: you know, I so appreciated that I got that space

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Speaker 1: at all, But it was it was definitely not like

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Speaker 1: this like beautiful, tranquil writing process with a lot of

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Speaker 1: space and a lot of time. There were no like

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Speaker 1: playlists or candles burning. It was very much just like

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Speaker 1: you know, oh my god, I have thirty minutes. I've

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Speaker 1: better really used this thirty minute. But like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is more involved in that like there there was

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Speaker 1: definitely like some I mean I outlined it before a

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Speaker 1: little bit because I had to just sell it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if I'm honest, I don't know if I would have

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Speaker 1: outlined it otherwise it wound up looking really different than

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Speaker 1: my outline. But I think if you can, if you

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Speaker 1: can outline a project, you know, you can kind of

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Speaker 1: write that project. Turns out your high school teacher was

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Speaker 1: sort of right about that, So, I mean that helped

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Speaker 1: me getting at a certain point. Getting reads from friends

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Speaker 1: or family really helped, you know, people always have, especially

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Speaker 1: when you read a memoir, lots of questions about like

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Speaker 1: how your family read, if they read, how they waited

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Speaker 1: in all of that, which we could talk about if

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Speaker 1: if you find it interesting. But I mean that was

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Speaker 1: also part of my process. It was figuring out who

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Speaker 1: to invite in and when and then like how to

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Speaker 1: incorporate those things in. But yeah, it was just a

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Speaker 1: lot of like mining memories. It was a fair amount

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Speaker 1: of interviewing also family members, just to make sure I

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Speaker 1: got my facts right. And like, looking back, I was

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Speaker 1: fortunate to have certain sources, like not just family lure

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Speaker 1: or interviews, but like I've journaled my whole life, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I had like these really detailed entries from around

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Speaker 1: the time I was searching, you know, I kept a

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Speaker 1: journal specifically about my search for my birth family, So

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Speaker 1: I had like, in some cases, whole conversations like written

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Speaker 1: down verbatim, which is great because I wrote this book

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Speaker 1: quite a few years after it happened, so I was

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Speaker 1: really fortunate to have that. But yeah, that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit about process, but truly, so much

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Speaker 1: of it is always just like sitting down and forcing

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Speaker 1: yourself to use the time that you have and and

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Speaker 1: giving yourself breaks to know when you need to take

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Speaker 1: a step back and actually think about a problem. Like

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Speaker 1: there are definitely issues that come up writing where it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter how long you sit and stare like at

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Speaker 1: the at the words of the screen, you might just

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Speaker 1: need to step back and get some space and think

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Speaker 1: about it without that pressure. Yeah, any are you taking notes?

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Speaker 1: And she loves to write fan fiction and she's I

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Speaker 1: think she's she won't let me read it yet, but

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Speaker 1: um my fan fiction would destroy you, and I'd say

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Speaker 1: that it's devastating. She likes tragedy. But yeah, so, and

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Speaker 1: I love how you said that you have to give

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Speaker 1: a step back. And I'm just wondering for writing a

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Speaker 1: memoir because as a writer, I'm sure you're you're writing

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Speaker 1: into a world of fiction as well as as memoirs

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Speaker 1: and such. Is the process different? Is it? How do

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Speaker 1: you do it in a healthy manner? Because I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine trying to process some of the life experiences and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure sure traumas that's within that. How do you

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Speaker 1: process and do that? It's funny when I started this book,

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Speaker 1: I really thought I had done all the processing that

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Speaker 1: there was to do, or at least like nine of it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, and I was very consciously like not

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Speaker 1: writing for say Catharsis or like, I wasn't writing to process.

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Speaker 1: Certainly writing helps with that, But by the time I

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Speaker 1: decided to publish about it and have it be hopefully

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Speaker 1: like read by others, I was thinking about, like what

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Speaker 1: what does the reader need to know? Like what do

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Speaker 1: they need to know to understand the stakes? Like what

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Speaker 1: will they pull from this? What will they take away?

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Speaker 1: Because when you write a memoir, like it's not really

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Speaker 1: about you anymore, it is like so much about the reader,

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Speaker 1: Like what relationship will they have to it? You're hoping

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Speaker 1: it's a good story, like first and foremost that it

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Speaker 1: actually draws people in and they want to keep reading.

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Speaker 1: But then beyond that, you know, with memoir I think

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Speaker 1: memoir is a form that justifies itself by like through

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Speaker 1: the question like what is in this for someone else?

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Speaker 1: Like what can someone else who's not you, who's not

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Speaker 1: deeply already like internet with your experience? Like what do

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Speaker 1: they get out of it? So I was I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about that a lot, Like what is the writer

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Speaker 1: need to understand, like in order to care about this,

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Speaker 1: in order to maybe reconsider some ideas they might have

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Speaker 1: about adoption or about like you know, transitional adoption specifically,

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Speaker 1: or about like multicultural multiracial families like mine and families

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Speaker 1: that are built like not just through like marriage, birth,

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Speaker 1: but also adoption, Like what do they need to know

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Speaker 1: to really like get the story? Um, and to maybe

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Speaker 1: re examine some of their ideas about it? So that

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Speaker 1: was like very much what I was thinking. And and

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Speaker 1: I think I also again like because it is so personal,

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Speaker 1: and also because there were so many people in the

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Speaker 1: story whose like stories over left with mine. I was thinking, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, hopefully not in like a censoring way, but

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Speaker 1: just like a realistic way, how I'm going to portray

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Speaker 1: people as like fully human and complex and in a

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Speaker 1: respectful way, even if they make choices that are clearly

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Speaker 1: like questionable or choices that like are fine, but what

380
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 1: aren't what I would have done, you know, like making

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Speaker 1: room for for the humanity of every other person in

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Speaker 1: the story. I think that was also something that I

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Speaker 1: thought about. I'm like worried about to be honest a lot,

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Speaker 1: and that actually brings me to one of the quotes

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Speaker 1: you've read in your one of your interviews is right,

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Speaker 1: it took so long for me to realize that love

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Speaker 1: for my family didn't have to mean staying silent, and

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Speaker 1: that I had to write to my anger. And for

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Speaker 1: me as an adoptee, I always have a fear that's

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Speaker 1: saying I wasn't the perfect happy orphan adoptee UM would

391
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Speaker 1: cause hurt and have a lot of backlash. UM and

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Speaker 1: being completely honest for and for you to write about

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00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: it's such an inspiration. Again, like I say in this article,

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Speaker 1: when you say that, UM, you talk about how important

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Speaker 1: it is to listen to the quote uncomfortable stories of

396
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Speaker 1: adoptions as well as the good, happy ending ones. What

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Speaker 1: advice do you have for people who are scared to

398
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Speaker 1: tell that uncomfortable story Because you even talk about getting

399
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Speaker 1: an email being accused of being ungrateful, which I've heard

400
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, I've heard that too, and I'm like,

401
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,919
Speaker 1: oh my god, please know I love my family, but

402
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 1: happened and and things were handled wrong, and I'm growing

403
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: from it, and I'm still talking like again, and I'm

404
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: still damaged by it, and I'm trying to unravel some things.

405
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: But what is your advice for people who are scared

406
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: to talk about it? Yeah, that's a really good question.

407
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the first thing, I'm an editor myself,

408
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 1: Like that's my day job, and I love it. I

409
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: love working with writers. It's a great privilege to get

410
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: to do that. I think, like I never want a writer,

411
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: regardless of their background or experience, to feel like they

412
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 1: owe the world, like their trauma or their you know,

413
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: the hardest, darkest moments. It takes like certain things have

414
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 1: to happen to you, like as a person and then

415
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,919
Speaker 1: as a writer to get to a point where you

416
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 1: want to tell those stories. And I guess the first

417
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: thing I would say is you don't have to, like

418
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Speaker 1: if you're not ready, especially if you're not ready to

419
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: do it publicly, because like as well you all know,

420
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 1: there's such a difference between like working and stuff yourself

421
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: for working on it with your family and that's hard enough,

422
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: and then like to take that and like bring it

423
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Speaker 1: into at least some part of it into a public sphere.

424
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Speaker 1: It's not for everybody, it shouldn't have to be for everybody.

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00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 1: I am like super grateful when writers are willing to

426
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 1: do that because I've learned so much as a reader

427
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: by like reading outside my experience. Right, So, but like

428
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: you have to balance like what is good for you

429
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 1: personally and your family and those relationships, and then like

430
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: what could help others. So I mean that's the first

431
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: thing is that you don't owe it to anybody, but

432
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,640
Speaker 1: if you want to, and like plenty plenty of people do.

433
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: And I've been asked by some plenty of adoptees like

434
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: who are trying to figure out ways to tell these stories?

435
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I think just recognizing again that like

436
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: it's hard if if writing is going to be your

437
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: catharsis or like your only catharsis. So I would say,

438
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 1: like making sure you've already done the work, and like

439
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: you know, you have a good support system. I don't

440
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 1: like tell people you should go to therapy, but like

441
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: God does we could all benefit from therapy, like thank

442
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: God for therapy. So I mean I and I did.

443
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 1: I mean I went to I went to therapy, as

444
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: I wrote about in the book, like as a transitional adoptee,

445
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 1: like at the age of seven, eight nine, um, and

446
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: I haven't been in continuously my whole life, but like

447
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: I was really glad I was lucky to have at

448
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: that young age like an adoption competent therapist. Definitely have

449
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: run into some who aren't as knowledgeable about it. So

450
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean to the extent that like people want to

451
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: write about it, I would just like see like how

452
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: like are you really okay? Are you ready to do this?

453
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 1: And I try not to have that sound condescending, because

454
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: you can be in the midst of real trauma and

455
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: still be ready to write about it. You know, that's

456
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: not a call I can make. But for me, like

457
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: there's a reason that like my search happened when it did,

458
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: and this book was published like almost ten years later,

459
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: Like I couldn't actually I told you, I journaled about it,

460
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: and that was for me that was kind of processing catharsis.

461
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: But like I could not have written this book while

462
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: it was happening. It would have been like too soon.

463
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: So I think just being really honest about where you

464
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: are and and knowing like if you're emotionally psychologically ready

465
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: for that are like other things. And then my like

466
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: my other big thing was just making sure in terms

467
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: of my family and those relationships. I did not want

468
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: the first time they ever learned that I had a

469
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: particular issue or problem or like you know, baggage. I

470
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: didn't want them to learn about it in an interview

471
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: in my book, in an essay, like I wanted us

472
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: to have had that discussion first. So I mean, this

473
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: is a privilege I had because I wasn't estranged from them,

474
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: because my parents like did love me. I think it

475
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: wasn't easy, but we were able to eventually have enough

476
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: conversations where I felt like, Okay, maybe parts of the

477
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: book would still be hard for them, or maybe they

478
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: wouldn't agree with other parts, but like it wouldn't be

479
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: a shock like we would have we would have done

480
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: that work already as a family. And I kind of

481
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: felt that with my sister too, and like other people

482
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: in the story, just like yeah, if if people were

483
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: in the book, you know, if if I'm in touch

484
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: with them, have a relationship with them, like I wanted

485
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: them to not be surprised by by what was shared.

486
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: That was just like a very important sort of ground

487
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: rule for me. I love that. I feel like that

488
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: advice is pretty much covers for anyone who's trying to

489
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: write a memoir in general, especially if it's traumatic, um

490
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: in any way, So thank you for that. And I

491
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: did want to go into the book and you talked

492
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: a little bit already about the reactions of your family,

493
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: and it looked like, for the most part, your parents,

494
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: your adoptive parents, were supportive of your book, and and

495
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: and um understanding, I know your father passed away before

496
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: you were able to publish it, is that correct, um, Now,

497
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to know how those conversations went

498
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: down when you discussed the book, as you were talking

499
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,239
Speaker 1: about and even with your sister, your biological sister, how

500
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: did all those conversations go. Yeah. So the first time,

501
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean I started telling everybody that I was thinking

502
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: about writing a book, when it was like I'm like

503
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: getting a proposal together, it's going to go out on submission,

504
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: it was very hard for me to believe it was

505
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: gonna sell. So like I was like, you know, I

506
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: don't know, it may happen, it may not. Um, so

507
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: like take it with a grain of salt that like

508
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this and everyone that you know, I mean,

509
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: I say it gave me their blessing, but that's a

510
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: little too reductive. They were basically okay, like it's your life.

511
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: My mom was an adoptive mom. She was like, you know,

512
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: as long as you don't write anything bad about us,

513
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's definitely it's not going to be like

514
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: a hit piece, like that's not the goal. That would

515
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: it be satisfying And it was funny. She also said

516
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: got My mom was hilarious. She was like, like, you're

517
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: not famous, so like who's going to read it? You know,

518
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: which is like another it's just a very palm thing. Um.

519
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: I think she was picturing like, you know, the celebrity memoir, right,

520
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: and I'm like, that's true. I'm not famous. People do

521
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: not care about me individually. But yeah, so what we

522
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: talked about it so I I basically again this goes

523
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: back to my no surprises rule. But I you know,

524
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: even before I sold it, I wanted them to notice

525
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: a possibility. I told them when I sold it. I

526
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: told him when I was working on it, and then

527
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: it was like a lot of silence for a while

528
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: because like it's not very interesting to talk about how

529
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: you're struggling with your manuscript. And so, um, I think

530
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: I brought it up again with everybody, you know, like

531
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: I ask every now and then, but I mostly just

532
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: like when I'm actually working on something, I don't like

533
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: to let people in, Like I'm like you'll know about

534
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: it when it's published, or like if I want to

535
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: show you a draft beforehand. And that's what I did,

536
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: like when I had a full, like a full complete

537
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: draft that my editor was also like this is good.

538
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: Like that's when I showed it to my family and

539
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: was just like open comment, reading period, share all your

540
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings with me. So I mean that's that's

541
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: kind of how that went. My um my, So my

542
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: biological sister, like her story comes into this so much.

543
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: There's a lot I share that's like really specific and

544
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 1: personal like about her, And I told I told her,

545
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: I was like, you you're the one who gets veto power,

546
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: like this is so personal. Um, if there is anything

547
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: you want taken out, no questions asked, we'll take it out.

548
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: And so I mean she didn't ask me to take

549
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: anything out, but I absolutely would have. That was just

550
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: really important to me. Um, it was like a little

551
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: bit different like with my birth father my adoptive parents,

552
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: like I would have had a conversation with them about

553
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: stuff they really objected to. But I mean, first of all,

554
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: I didn't have to because no one strongly objected, which

555
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: was great. But also like I mean this goes back

556
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: to like I don't know, there's this like great Lucille

557
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: Clifton line. It's like it's from a poem and and

558
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: she says, like people want me to remember their memories,

559
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: but I keep remembering my own. I might have mangled

560
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: that somewhat, but I mean, a memory is it is.

561
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: It's a book, it's a work built on memories, and

562
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: it is so personal. Like my mother and I might remember,

563
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: say like a certain thing differently. Um, and when we do,

564
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: or when she's not sure or when I'm not sure,

565
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: I try to acknowledge that in the text, Like I'm

566
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: a big fan of those signals and saying I think this,

567
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: my mother says this, or you know, neither one of

568
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: us can totally remember, but like this is what we

569
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: think happened. Like I actually like that, but but yeah,

570
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: like it doesn't necessarily mean I would like take it out.

571
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: So it was a different kind of negotiation. But um,

572
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: but no one actually asked me to remove anything. You know.

573
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: I think my parents were like, you got this year wrong,

574
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: and like so I changed the year and my sister

575
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: thought of a couple of things too that like she

576
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 1: had told me that like it turned out, you know,

577
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: maybe I forget what exactly it was like sort of

578
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: minor corrections, but but nobody, nobody like quibbled with anything,

579
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: like you know, in terms of content. M I mean,

580
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: I hope that the other people in the story, especially

581
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: like my sister and my parents, like they do feel, um,

582
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: that it's true and that it honors them, because that

583
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: was something that I really wanted to do. Like I

584
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's like I just kind of wanted

585
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: them to feel like real and to feel fully human

586
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: and I am for people to have empathy with them

587
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: and not just me, And I figured if I could

588
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: do that, then then the book would be maybe doing

589
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: them justice as well. Um, but like this is going

590
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: to look different for everybody, of course, being writing personal stories.

591
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: It was just kind of like how I approached it

592
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: because because I, you know, I am in touch with

593
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: my family, because these relationships are really important to me,

594
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: and because I also wanted to tell the truth and

595
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: tell my truth. Um, you know how to do that

596
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: and how to negotiate that. When your story overlapped with

597
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: other people's lives, right, and you did a great job

598
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: of intertwining those stories. It was very beautiful and it

599
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: flowed so well, um that it didn't take it out

600
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: like for so many stories when it does, I it

601
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: kind of takes you out. You're like, what just happened?

602
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: Where am I? But for you, your story it was perfect.

603
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: It kind of just was a beautifully fleshed out, threaded

604
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: story together. So it was amazing. But I do want

605
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: to ask also, because your biological father was as a

606
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: writer as well as well in the academic did you

607
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: actually talk to him about your book? Did he read

608
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: it as well? Yeah? It's such a it's just such

609
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: a kick that my birth father turns out to be

610
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,479
Speaker 1: a writer, and like not just a writer, but like

611
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: primarily an essayist, like writing not fiction. And he's told me,

612
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: he's like, you get this from me, you know, And

613
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: I think he's probably right because like nobody in my

614
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: adoptive family, you know, is a writer anyway, It's it's

615
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: just interesting. But but yeah, so he did. I told him.

616
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: At the same time I told my sister and my

617
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: adoptive parents, um, and then I sent all of them

618
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: the manuscript. I might have sent it to my sister

619
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: like a week ahead of the others, but like around

620
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: the same time, so everyone had a chance. My first father,

621
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, he's Korean and he's fluent in English, but

622
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: it's not his first language, and so he read it. Okay. God,

623
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: First of all, I think my adoptive parents took forever

624
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: to read it, and I was getting getting increasingly anxious

625
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: the longer they held out to it. I was finally

626
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: I was like, it's been like four or six weeks.

627
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: I hadn't really heard. I was like, you know, what

628
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 1: do you think? Like, I know, it's like probably a

629
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: lot to read, but it's not like war in peace.

630
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's just not that long. Can

631
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: we talk about it, please? But so he actually took

632
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: much longer, uh than they did, even and so that

633
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: I did hear from him. He again didn't ask me

634
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: to change anything. He said he was proud Um. I

635
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: know it was like a difficult thing for him to

636
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: read it at points. UM, but I think I mean,

637
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: out of everyone, he's probably I don't know. I think

638
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: both he and my biological sister, I think they understood

639
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: really like almost more than anybody. Why like why I

640
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: wanted to write it down, just like why that felt

641
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: very important? Um. You know, again, this is something that

642
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: he does himself, and so I don't know, Like, I

643
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: just think that part of it made sense to him,

644
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: like where I was, like in my adoptive family. I

645
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: think there there was and still is in some corners

646
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: this whole question of like why in the world would

647
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: you And like, I don't think that's a question to

648
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: the Korean side. I think, like because both my father

649
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: and my sister UM love to write, and like that's

650
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: how they remember and how they honor certain memories. I

651
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: just think I think they kind of instinctively understood that, right.

652
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: I love that. UM. So I also wanted to ask

653
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: because I know, as a person who is very open

654
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: about adoption for myself as well, I get a lot

655
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: of questions. I get a lot of people coming to me.

656
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: I'm also a social worker, so I have that kind

657
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: of actually an experts. Yeah, well not in adoption but

658
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: in child uh stuff. But that sounded really professional, didn't it?

659
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: Child stuff? That's how professional. I this is why I'm

660
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: no longer in such play. But like you have now

661
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: kind of touted as the expert um, do you feel

662
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: like this is something that is fairly heavy responsibility since

663
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: this is not just something that you research or something

664
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: that you studied. This is your actually your life that

665
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: you're basing your conversations on, your expertise on I guess

666
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: um that you continually have to keep sharing. Do you

667
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: feel like it's kind of just a wait, that's a

668
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: really good question, and no one's ever actually asked me

669
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: that before, Like I forget it. I forget what it was.

670
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: But like at some point, I think, like a year

671
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: or two ago, like right around the tim the book

672
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: was actually coming out, Like, there was a fellow adoptee

673
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: and I think she said something to me like how

674
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: does it feel to be like basically the spokesperson? And

675
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: I was like, I mean I felt really uncomfortable. And

676
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: then I was like, oh God, is that what adopted

677
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: you think I'm trying to do? Like I'm really not.

678
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 1: I don't think I have the authority or the right,

679
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: you know, as I've tried to stay over and over

680
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: in a way that I hope doesn't sound like dodging responsibility,

681
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: but like I can't and don't want to like speak

682
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: for like I mean really any adoptees but myself. And

683
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: then you balance that against like the fact that like

684
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: we are underrepresented, like to some degree, anyone who reads

685
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: my book will think that, like my experience is I

686
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: mean at least somewhat representative of a lot of us.

687
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: So like, what what's my responsibility there? Um? I knew

688
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: when I wrote it, i'd be kind of feeling some

689
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: of this pressure, like the rep sweats at the same time,

690
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: like I had written other things about adoption before, and

691
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: I got feedback and I've gotten questions, and I felt like, again,

692
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: just much more prepared for that than I would have, say,

693
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: ten years earlier. Um. And like in terms of some

694
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: of the emails I get from people like the one

695
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: that you referenced earlier, you know, people saying I'm ungrateful

696
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: or saying that like they feel sorry for my adoptive parents. Um,

697
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: you know, and it gets I mean I've gotten worse

698
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: that would have destroyed me ten years ago. I don't

699
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: enjoy them now, but I am able to kind of

700
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't say struggled them off. But the vast

701
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: majority of much more positive feedback is like, first of all,

702
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, like it sort of outweighs all that hearing

703
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: from adoptees means like everything to me, and I probably

704
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: hear from like a couple adopt these a week still,

705
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: so like that's really meaningful. I don't regret putting the

706
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: story out there, and I guess I don't feel too

707
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: much pressure because to me, I've always felt like I'm

708
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: just telling my story. It's only representative of me and

709
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: my family. Like every adoptee is an expert on their

710
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: own experience, you know, they're their expert. There the authority,

711
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: and that's why we need so many more stories, right,

712
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: But that's also why the pressure is kind of off

713
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: of me, because like maybe that's still cough out, but

714
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: like I just I've never felt maybe some people view

715
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: me differently, but I have never assumed like or accepted

716
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: like that responsibility. I really this is like this is

717
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: like the beauty and the power of memoir is that

718
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: it is so personal, like you're gesturing at something more universal, hopefully,

719
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I can really

720
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: only tell my own experience, and so no, I don't

721
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 1: feel it's a burden. I feel really privileged. I feel really,

722
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, lucky to have gotten to to tell the

723
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: story at all. And I feel so so grateful whenever

724
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: I hear, especially from like fellow adoptees, that the book

725
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: meant something to them, you know, But I I appreciate that,

726
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: But I truly I don't really think of myself as

727
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: like a spokes person any more than like every single

728
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 1: one of us, who ever talks about it in any

729
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: public way, is turned into a kind of ambassador for

730
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: for the experience. Like you know, as you mentioned yourself,

731
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: if people know they're going to ask, and like, like

732
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: I read about in the book, I was only like

733
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: twenty two and these perspective adoptive parents are asking me, like,

734
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: so do we adopt? Is it going to be okay?

735
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: You know it didn't. I hadn't written a book yet,

736
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: I hadn't written anything about adoption, but like I was

737
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: still in that position. So I mean, we all kind

738
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: of share that just by having this experience. Yeah, I

739
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: will say yeah, my well, not my first, but one

740
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: of the experiences that I remember clearly was in college

741
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: when I was asked to talk to a family who

742
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: considering it. So I was like, okay, what um, And

743
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: of course that's before I realized all the things that

744
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: I need to figure out my own self. And then

745
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 1: living in a world where I was a social worker

746
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: and I saw the impact of foster care well as um,

747
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: some of the faulty systems that happened within foster care

748
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: and adoption. But yeah, that's kind of an interesting thing

749
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: where you become like, well, this is your life, so

750
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: that means you know everything, correct? Yeah, I mean when

751
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: they started with us from such a young age, though,

752
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: they do as soon as people start to notice you

753
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: look different from your parents. Like, if anything, I got

754
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: fewer questions in college because my parents were not around.

755
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: But I mean I in a way like we're sort

756
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: of turned into these little spokespeople like at a very

757
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: young age, or transfertional adoptees because it's right there, like

758
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: people really will just kind of like ask whatever. It's

759
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: kind of that whole like ownership. You've let that, you

760
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: put it out there, so therefore now we can ask

761
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: you whatever we want type of level. Yeah, yeah, it

762
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: has occurred to me too, like if people are really curious,

763
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: maybe if they read my book, they will not send

764
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: the next eight year old adopting thing Like yeah, a

765
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: few of the questions I've heard in interviews, I'm like,

766
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: did you not read her book? Because she already inserting

767
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: people are busy, they can't read everything. We just touch

768
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: you on this time, but not actually read the book,

769
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 1: so here you go, which I'm sure it has happened

770
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: many times. But yeah, Also I did want to ask um,

771
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: kind of in reference to the book, you talk about

772
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: a scene where you first meet your sister Cindy, and

773
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: we talked about shopping and cooking food and making recipes.

774
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: One of the things for me as an actual person

775
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: who lived in Korea until I was six um six seven,

776
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,919
Speaker 1: and like, I have a lot of memories about food.

777
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: And I know that's not necessarily your story, but kind

778
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: of it seemed like you had a moment of bonding

779
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: with your sister talking about food. Do you now have

780
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: a favorite Korean dish or do something that YouTube talk

781
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: about or make together or need that. That's a weird question.

782
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: I love food. No, it's Okay, I have to think

783
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 1: about it. It's hard to pick a favorite. I've liked

784
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: every Korean dish I've ever tried, and especially my sisters

785
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: because it's like home cooking and she made it for me.

786
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: That sounds amazing. She makes like very good everything. I

787
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm trying to think. I don't know if

788
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: I have like a clear favorite, but like every time

789
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: I eat Korean food, even if it's just at a restaurant,

790
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: it reminds me of her, and it's very comforting and

791
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: like it's not the same as like growing up in

792
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: a Korean family where I ate it all the time,

793
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: learned how to prepare it myself, like it always there's

794
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: a strong childhood association, but it is like a very

795
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: strong association with her, and we still go to like

796
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: the closest Asian grocery whenever we're together, which like sadly

797
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: hasn't been for a while, um, but like we'll always

798
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: do at least one day where there's a big shop

799
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: and then like a big dinner. She made cream food

800
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: for me. Like the day that my book published, I

801
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: was I was staying with her in Portland, and like

802
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: this is like amazing, Like I don't know, so I

803
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: don't think it's like the same as it is like

804
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: for a lot of other people, but I do. I

805
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: do really associate it with like her and with family,

806
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: just like not quite with like childhood or home. Yeah,

807
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: it's like so different, but you're making new memories, which

808
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: is amazing. We do have more of this conversation for you,

809
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for word

810
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: fromer sponsor and we're back thanking sponsor. Let's get back

811
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: into it. Then you said you have two children, Now

812
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: if you kind of put that in their world as well,

813
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: like bringing that kind of culture to them, I know

814
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: you had referenced your daughter wanting to learn Korean um

815
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: and trying to become more part of that culture. Has

816
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: that been a big part of their growing up? I

817
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: guess yeah, it hasn't been as big as I would

818
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: have liked it to be. Honestly, I think it's just hard,

819
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 1: like being adopted up. I feel like I was always

820
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: starting from like so far behind that it's like just

821
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: it's not like I have like a goal of like

822
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: pete Korean that like when I get there, I'll just

823
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: feels right, Like I think I'll always feel just a

824
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: little bit shaky and the identity and it doesn't like

825
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: it is harder to pass on just because of that,

826
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: like total cultural separation. I mean that said, like I

827
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: do enjoy times when my daughter and I will like

828
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, practice Korean or like make we'll try to

829
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: make food together. Like I'm not very good at it,

830
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: but you know, like there are and she really likes

831
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: and she also likes cooking with my sister, So like

832
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: when my sister is here, like it's it's great to

833
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: have someone who knows what they're doing. Um, I mean,

834
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 1: it is a part of their heritage and there I

835
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: think they're very proud of it, you know. And when

836
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: I think about like what it means for them to

837
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: have connections to other parts of their culture, I mean,

838
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: in a way, they're more connected to Korean and I

839
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: guess maybe like the Lebanese part of their culture because

840
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: of things like food, which is so I mean not

841
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: that you can reduce a culture to its food, but

842
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: it's just so I mean, it's so wonderful to share,

843
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: to pass on impact. You can hold onto that after

844
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: you've lost so many other things. I think like they

845
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: do identify with that, and I know my My older

846
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: daughter especially, like is much more aware of things, strongly

847
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: identifies as you know, as Asian and American, as Korean,

848
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: as not white. But I don't know. I think they're

849
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: their understandings are definitely still evolving, and I try not

850
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: to speak too much about their personal like how they identify.

851
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's their story to tell. But I do think,

852
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's like part of their life,

853
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: and probably more so than it would have been, like

854
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: if I hadn't searched, and so in that sense, it's

855
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,919
Speaker 1: not like mission accomplished. It's just like, you know, that's

856
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: like one more thing I think about. And they have

857
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: these people in their lives to like my sister, like

858
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: their cousin, um, you know, who they wouldn't have had otherwise,

859
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: and that's you know, those relationships are important for so

860
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 1: many reasons. I love that. But yeah, you did say

861
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: something about identity, and actually I just posted recently on

862
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: my own Twitter, I'm so cool. I'm not about the

863
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: fact that when I was as I'm reading your book,

864
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: I'm having to unravel a lot, not just with the book,

865
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: but just my whole life in trying to figure out

866
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: my identity again, since honestly, even though beforehand, yes, racism

867
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: is always there. I've always known I'm a different race.

868
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: I'm always known that I have been the only white kid,

869
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: um not, that's what I've trid again, only Asian kids

870
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 1: in a very white community, only person of color in

871
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: a very white community. As well, growing up um and

872
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: understanding that I had a lot of things to deal

873
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: with and fighting so hard as a child to fit

874
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: in and assimilate that I had to almost and it

875
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: wasn't because of anybody else other than my own insecurity

876
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: is like hating myself for being a person of color,

877
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: for being a girl that was not wanted, you know,

878
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: in this time frame or in this culture, and then

879
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: trying to grow up and trying to figure out which

880
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: place do I sit, which way do I go? You know.

881
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I had this conversation

882
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: and someone said to me, You're like, wow, it's like

883
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: a double imposter syndrome. And she's I'm like what she's like,

884
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: Not only are you trying to prove that you're Asian

885
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: and you don't know if your Asian community will accept you,

886
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: you're also trying to prove you're not Asian to Asian

887
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: for the white community at one point in time, so

888
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: they'll you know that model minority can be a part

889
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: of your identity, such my identity, um so on that.

890
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: Have you ever had that experience as well, like trying

891
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: to figure out and how have you gone through it

892
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: or have you been able to go and pass that. Yeah,

893
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any getting passed it, which

894
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: I hope there's not real discouraging to people. But like

895
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: by then, I just mean like it'll always be part

896
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: of your experience, even if like you get to a

897
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: point where I don't know you've done the work or

898
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: you're at peace with it, or like you've moved beyond

899
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: trying to like appease any other like individual or a

900
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: group of people. I just think like you carry that

901
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: with you, like that memory, and I think it's so

902
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: hard to see when you're in the midst of it.

903
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: Like I probably if I were still living in my

904
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: very white hometown, I don't know how much harder it

905
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: would have been to do this unpacking to figure it out.

906
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if I ever would have been able

907
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: to because like the white by default framework was just

908
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: I mean, that was just like my day to day,

909
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: like I had to be removed from it and experienced

910
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: something else to like look back and even begin to

911
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: unpack the impact and to think about like ways like

912
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: the scars I carried, the ways it was like you know, harmful, um,

913
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, the things that were often nobody's fault, but

914
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: just like a way of how I experienced the world

915
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: because I was the only one for so many years.

916
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: I definitely, I've said before, I think that to some

917
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: people transitional adoptees, and let's be honest, Asian American adoptees,

918
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: because of the model minority myth, I think in some

919
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: ways we are like to some white people like the

920
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: ultimate and like accessibility in terms of like people of

921
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: color like. But then I mean, like we're just so

922
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: easily if they can relate to anybody, they can relate

923
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: to us, because you know, because model minority, because we

924
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: grow up in white families, Like we're socialized in these

925
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: ways because like because there is a lot of assimilation

926
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: at work, um, and you've got that proximity to whiteness,

927
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: which is not the same as having white privilege ourselves.

928
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: But like there is definitely like some and I've never

929
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: really succeeded in gearing it out for myself. But there

930
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: is like some associated privilege, like in just in terms

931
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: of the proximity to whiteness and like having that comfort.

932
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: I mean, the flip side is it can also like

933
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: make you really unsure of yourself as like a Korean

934
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: or Asian American, right, And I've there were definitely like

935
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: years really not so much now, but like you know,

936
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 1: I could think of years where like an all white

937
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: room would have felt like way more comfortable to me,

938
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: say it than like an Asian American room. And you know,

939
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: God not that those are the only two races, but

940
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like for the purposes of

941
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: my upbringing and identity, like those are the two things

942
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,479
Speaker 1: I was caught between. And there are many years where

943
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: like I would have not wanted to be white even

944
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: but like that room would have felt more comfortable, Like

945
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: I would have felt like I knew how to handle myself.

946
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: So this is a very long winded way of saying,

947
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: like I think it's just ongoing, like um, the work

948
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: of like processing and dealing with that and thinking about

949
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: what it means and you know, like figuring out to

950
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: like because we're not the only people in the room,

951
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: Like what does solidarity look like? Like? What is required

952
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: of us? Like given our positioning and our proximity to whiteness,

953
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: and like whatever comfort we have or don't have with it.

954
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: Like I mean, that's like it's like taking it a

955
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: step further. But before you couldn't even think about, like

956
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 1: what what solidarity looks like? As like an adopted Asian

957
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: person in this country. You know, you have to think

958
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: you have to have already done the work of like

959
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: examining how how that's affected you and your your worldview

960
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: and your biases and all of that. Yeah, it's fascinating

961
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: and it's all really hard. It is. It is so

962
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: many things. Obviously I've made this on my show right now.

963
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: That's I'm asking all of the questions and I'm like,

964
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: let me ask you this, um, But I did have

965
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: one more and then Annie, I promise I'm done, because

966
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: I do want to come back to the bond between

967
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: you and your sister and just how important it is

968
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: that we are able to see that type of bond,

969
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: not only the fact that you guys reconnected and what's

970
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: not an impossible moment to connect and finding a kinship

971
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: in such a closeness. Um, just can you talk about

972
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: your relationship and how it has obviously there's a lot

973
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: of healing in that, and what that looked like for you. Yeah,

974
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: I mean I think, like a lot of adoptees, when

975
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: I used to imagine, like maybe I'll search for my

976
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 1: birth family someday, maybe we'll connect, I was always picturing

977
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: like my birth parents. I mean I was. I've also

978
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: always wanted siblings, so like it's kind of weird in

979
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: a way. I didn't think about birth siblings as much

980
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: as like a real possibility, but I didn't, Like I

981
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: was just so focused on like you know, I mean,

982
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: they're literally the people who made you, so I was.

983
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 1: I guess I was sort of focused on that. But

984
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: the reunion with my sister was just so unexpected in

985
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: so many ways, Like it was not I thought of

986
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: it as like an unlooked for gift, like it really

987
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: it was such a surprise to me that like that

988
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: this would be I don't know, the greatest, the greatest

989
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: thing that really came out of that whole experience for

990
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: both of us, you know, And in terms of healing,

991
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: like I also had always thought of it as kind

992
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: of like maybe if there was any healing at all,

993
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: it would be like in me finding answers to questions

994
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: I'd always had, and in my birth parents like knowing

995
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: that I was okay and like maybe not having to

996
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: like regret their choice if they had ever regretted it.

997
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: I mean this is also, I now know, like a

998
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: really simplestic way of looking at it, but like that's

999
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: what I was thinking, Like if we're able to offer

1000
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: each other any like closure or healing at all, Like

1001
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: surely that's what it will be. I had not thought again,

1002
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: like what like what siblings could like need, um if

1003
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 1: they were in the picture. Um, Like I wouldn't presume

1004
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: to say, like I've healed my sister, and it's it's

1005
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: even like maybe a little too reductive to say she's

1006
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: healed me. But like we both really needed each other,

1007
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: Like we both really needed for various reasons, like that

1008
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: kind of family connection that kind of like like support

1009
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: uh and mutual aid um, just like knowing that someone

1010
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: was going to be in your corner no matter what,

1011
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: Like I get lost inliche is sometimes when I talk

1012
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: about it. But like I mean, I think we both

1013
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: needed that that type of relationship, and it wouldn't have

1014
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: occur to me that I could provide that for somebody

1015
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: like I. I don't know. I just figured, like if

1016
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: I had siblings, they would have been fine without me,

1017
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: like they've been without me their whole lives like that.

1018
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: In Cindy's case, she had no idea I was alive, um,

1019
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: And so like, I don't know. At so many points

1020
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: I was like are you sure? Like why, like why

1021
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: are you wasting time with me? Like in a way,

1022
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: because like what, I didn't know what I had to

1023
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: really offer, um. And it was really only after like

1024
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: meeting her in person and talking about like what our

1025
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: families and our upbringings were like, and like thinking about

1026
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: her life then you know, just like I started to

1027
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: wonder like if there was something that she needed that

1028
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: I could provide too. So I don't know. I mean

1029
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: that's how it started. We're several years on now, let's see,

1030
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: like at least twelve years, and we're still really close.

1031
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: I missed her a lot. I don't know what I'm

1032
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: going to get to see her because she lives across

1033
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: the country. Um. But you know, up until like this year,

1034
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: we tended to see each other at least once sometimes

1035
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,439
Speaker 1: we were lucky, and like it was twice a year.

1036
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: I don't know how do even express it in words sometimes,

1037
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: like I guess I'm not that good at a rider,

1038
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: but like she really is in so many ways, just

1039
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: like this steadfast um presence and like she's so strong

1040
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: and she's so compassionate. She really is like like my

1041
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: hero in a lot of ways. Um So I just

1042
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: feel really fortunate that like this thing that I never

1043
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: would have expected to come out of my search is

1044
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: what what came out of it. And not just for me,

1045
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: but again like for my kids, you know, she's just there.

1046
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: You know, she's just there, charent Cindy, like they have

1047
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: always known her. They don't remember not knowing her. And

1048
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: like actually, like I don't know, for both my niece

1049
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: and my kids, like I think they like to like

1050
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: ask questions and hear about the story again because like

1051
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean, for them, it's just the way it is.

1052
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: It's always been this way. They've always had each other

1053
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: like us in their lives. But like I think it's

1054
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 1: interesting to them how like it wasn't necessarily going to

1055
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: be that way, Like if we hadn't both taken steps

1056
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: to kind of put our family our family back together

1057
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: in this way, like you know, they wouldn't know each other.

1058
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know, Like I I'm

1059
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: definitely rambling now. No, I love it. Heart feels so big. Yeah,

1060
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: I just feel really again, just really really. Um. I'm

1061
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: just really thankful that like that's what happened, because it

1062
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: was not something I ever would have you know, I

1063
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 1: would have expected. And I love that you have a

1064
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: support system and through all of this became such a

1065
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 1: beautiful story of bonding. Um, it was beautiful. Like I said,

1066
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: it was written so well that I was just like,

1067
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: that's fantastic. It always just like this a fiction. Thank you,

1068
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, and thank you for reading it. I also

1069
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: am conscious of how, like you know, I sometimes feel

1070
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: like adoption stories hit really close to the bone for me. Um,

1071
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I kind of struggle more with it sometimes

1072
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: in fiction, like where it's like a plot device. I

1073
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: sometimes do better if it's nonfiction. But anyway, like I

1074
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: appreciate you spending time with it because I just feel

1075
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: like there's an extra emotional investment. Maybe maybe there's an

1076
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: extra reward too with if you identify with any part

1077
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: of it. Did I felt seen and I loved that

1078
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: even though the story was different, there were still like

1079
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: parts of this was like yes and and you. For

1080
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: the lack of better words, like not necessarily a happy ending,

1081
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: but things that made sense and coming together for you

1082
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: does feel somewhat fulfilling for me as a person who

1083
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 1: doesn't have that open apportioned to my or that insight

1084
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: to that half of my life. So it's really nice

1085
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: to see as well as being able to again feel represented.

1086
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: Like I told Annie a while ago, one of the

1087
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: only books that I've ever been able to read that

1088
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: had anything to do with anything about me outside of

1089
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: like having at least a Chinese person in the Babysitters

1090
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: Club was just as long as We're Together by Judy

1091
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: Blue Adopted Yes a young girl, um, and it made

1092
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 1: me feel like, oh wow, well look there's someone else

1093
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: who they're treating as a normal child having, you know,

1094
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: and she's as an adolescent. This is beautiful. So to

1095
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: see more and more, it's so important and it's so

1096
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: wonderful to see. And yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I was.

1097
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: I was hesitant because I was afraid of the things

1098
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: that it may bring out of me. And I've had

1099
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 1: to work out so much as a social worker in

1100
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: this field trying to advocate for kids who are in

1101
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: foster care and such. But seeing this story UM, not

1102
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: only because yes, transracial adoption is is different from the

1103
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: adoption within the U S and we know this UM

1104
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: not just within the US, but within the cultures and

1105
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: what it looks like and again what it has this

1106
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: whole fetish size fairy tale behind it, and that's what

1107
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: you see is representations. I'm like, oh God, what's wrong

1108
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: with me if I'm not that perfect story that came

1109
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: out like that. But to see something that's like, yeah,

1110
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: this is the reality. It's not all bad, it's not

1111
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: all great, and this is how it became. It was

1112
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 1: a beautiful life to see that wasn't mine. That made sense.

1113
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: So thank you for writing and thank you for coming on.

1114
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie again. I've been so excited and

1115
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: kind of nervous emailing. No, I really appreciate the invitation. Yeah,

1116
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: and thank you, m Annie. Sorry, no drining moment. I'm

1117
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: so sorry. No, this is so great. This is so great,

1118
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: and you you touched on like all of the things. Yeah,

1119
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: we were kind of outlined on how we were going

1120
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: to talk about the book. This is gonna be perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1121
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: I guess I would just like to say that as

1122
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: someone who does right, I've never considered writing a memoir,

1123
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: but as a podcaster, we sometimes experienced that sort of

1124
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: vulnerability if people know a lot about us but we

1125
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: don't know them, And so I almost feel a little

1126
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: strange asking me your personal questions about your life, even

1127
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: though you who wrote the book. But I did appreciate, um,

1128
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 1: how you painted the complexity of family and you talked

1129
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: about um like the origin stories we often tell ourselves

1130
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: and then questioning that and what that meant for you, um,

1131
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: because I do think that even um, my dad wasn't adopted,

1132
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: but he wasn't raised by his parents, He wasn't officially adopted.

1133
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: And I didn't even know who my real grandparents were

1134
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: until h well, I thought I thought my other grandparents

1135
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: the day they weren't related to me and I didn't

1136
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: know it. But like they were, these stories we tell

1137
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: and having to come to terms of just how complicated

1138
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: your feelings can be with family and why you tell them. Um.

1139
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: So I was it was lovely to see that nuance

1140
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: and complexity expressed. Uh. And I don't know if there's

1141
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: any piece of that that you feel like you can

1142
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: speak to or you want to expound on in terms

1143
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: of like writing like a personal story for like public consumption.

1144
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, and just like the kind of origin

1145
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: stories we tell ourselves, I'm obsessed with those, like I, Um,

1146
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. We we can all think about those

1147
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: stories and our families that have been told so many times.

1148
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: It's like you might have you probably have like no

1149
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: memory of it yourself, like probably many of them took

1150
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: place before you were born, but you're just like, yeah,

1151
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: that was like established fact, and like like there's just

1152
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: no questioning that stuff is like bedrock. Um. And I

1153
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: when I was writing the book, I was thinking about

1154
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: how like questioning that can feel like questioning someone's religion,

1155
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, or like they're very just it's such a

1156
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: deeply held personal belief. And yet that I think if

1157
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: you're going to think about adoption or like any family

1158
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: topic with real complexity, you have to build in a

1159
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: little bit of space for questioning those like like the

1160
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: family lore, and for like thinking about the people who

1161
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: aren't there or whose voices maybe just aren't the loudest.

1162
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: But that's the other thing I've noticed and families like

1163
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: without naming names, like, I'm sure we can all think

1164
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: of people in the family who, like it's sort of

1165
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: like their take on things ends up being the dominant

1166
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: take or like the people whose opinions are like kind

1167
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: of the loudest in the strongnest. But that doesn't mean

1168
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: other people aren't having like wildly different experiences or might

1169
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: not have different opinions. And so I mean that's just

1170
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: like a factor in every family, whether or not adoptions involved,

1171
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: whether or not there's something like dramatic or whether there's estrangement.

1172
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: You know, there's always there's always other perspectives. So now

1173
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,479
Speaker 1: I like to think about all that. Personally, I find

1174
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: origin stories fascinating because they are literally what make us,

1175
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: and like they form our world views in a lot

1176
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: of ways. And yet like so much of the like

1177
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: the biggest questions and like the hardest work and the

1178
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 1: most interesting writing also comes from like when you start

1179
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: to reconsider like those long held truths. I mean, I

1180
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: just I love that stuff, and so yeah, I mean

1181
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: I like to read it like beyond even beyond them more.

1182
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: That's sort of like themes I look for in general.

1183
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: I look for it in stories that I edit and publish.

1184
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 1: I just like I always love to see a writer

1185
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: asking those big questions are like challenging, like a dominant narrative. Yeah,

1186
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where a lot of the best,

1187
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: like the best stories wind up coming from. Annie Spine.

1188
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: More notes for her fan fiction. I write other things

1189
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: and fan fiction, but I don't know. I don't believe you.

1190
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: What do you do? You don't want me to. You

1191
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: don't have to say no, no, no no. I write

1192
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:40,919
Speaker 1: um primarily Star Wars Original Trilogy and Harry Potter. Yeah,

1193
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: and right now, the one I'm writing on right now

1194
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: is two d and fifty pages, okay, and so tragic.

1195
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: It is what I've discovered. She will always come up with,

1196
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: oh my god, the things I've done to my characters.

1197
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: I'm so sad about it. Sometimes I feel legitimate guilt. Sorry,

1198
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: keep going. I just wanted to push that in Always

1199
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: I'm telling people your your hobbies, thank you. I'm sure

1200
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: it's not without embarrassing me, not at all. I'm proud

1201
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: of what you do because I could not do it.

1202
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: I've written many of things, and they're all short stories

1203
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: because I'm like and I'm done. Sort stories are so

1204
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: hard though, Like just the I'm like, how do you

1205
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: do it? How do you like create? I can't do

1206
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: beyond that because I'm like, I'm done now. It's such

1207
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: a I'm just like, how do you have the arc

1208
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: and the characterization and the setting, I mean, the basic

1209
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: building plots of the story in a very very small space,

1210
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: knowing you don't get anymore. Like that's it. I think

1211
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: that's actually magic. I feel like I know writer's best

1212
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: when I can get their short stories like that. I

1213
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: think that's why I love like Southern Gothic, because a

1214
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: lot of those writers start off with small essays. And

1215
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: I love that death because I like that mystery that

1216
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: it involts. Anyway, this has gone to it completely difficult.

1217
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, eight no questions that I just cut you

1218
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: off of. No, this relates a great segue. Um. Do

1219
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: you have any projects that you're working on that you're

1220
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: excited about? Oh gosh, I mean I'm always like working

1221
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: on like essays here and there. I've like started unfinished

1222
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: novels and I have sold my second book, so I'm

1223
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,919
Speaker 1: working on another work. It's I mean, I keep calling

1224
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: it like a memoir and essays. I think it'll feel.

1225
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: I think it'll feel quite different in form than all.

1226
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: You can never know, but um, but yeah, it's it's

1227
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: it's going to be like essays revolving around like grief

1228
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: and class and my I mean, I actually sold it

1229
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: before my mother, my adoptive mom passed away earlier this year,

1230
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: just three months ago, and it's strange to be writing

1231
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: about grief in the midst of this. This. Also, I

1232
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 1: wasn't actually anticipating when the books sold, but I mean,

1233
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: I think I have a lot of work to do before.

1234
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: I think it'll just take time. Um, but that is

1235
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: the next thing. It's been sold, so I do have

1236
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 1: to deliver it. Um. So yeah, it'll it'll be a

1237
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: why oncoming. But that's very exciting, um to read the book,

1238
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: not the process. Sorry, um. And yeah it's you. I've

1239
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 1: read a few essays you as you were talking about

1240
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: um writing uh doing grief and what would because I

1241
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 1: think people as you talk about it, it is cathartic

1242
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: for people as well as there's many writers who are

1243
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: going through some really tough times, whether it's grief of

1244
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 1: a love more like you said, what is your advice

1245
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 1: on that and how do you care for yourself At

1246
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: the same time, yeah, I feel much less qualified to

1247
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: give advice in this because I feel like I'm not.

1248
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: It's honestly just been really hard because I don't have

1249
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: Like with the first book, I had several years of

1250
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: removal from it, and this is all just really fresh

1251
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: and it's really raw, and in some ways like that

1252
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 1: means the emotions very easy to access, and in other

1253
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: ways it could just feel like a flood sometimes I can.

1254
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 1: I find it seems very overwhelming. So like, in terms

1255
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 1: of taking care of yourself, like I mean, I do,

1256
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: I give myself permission to take breaks, sometimes quite long ones.

1257
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: I recognized how much of this book will probably like

1258
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: take form when I'm not writing, so like when I

1259
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: when I do step back and go for a long walk,

1260
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: or like really think or look through photos or just

1261
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: like remember my parents. Um, like, I think a lot

1262
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: of a lot of the work of this book will

1263
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 1: It'll have to be done like well, I'm not writing,

1264
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: which is which is not to say writing isn't still

1265
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: the job, because it's the job, but I'm learning as

1266
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,439
Speaker 1: I get older, how much of writing is everything else

1267
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,439
Speaker 1: that you do too? I mean and specifically the time

1268
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: that you take just think and just be um and

1269
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: ask yourself questions and like you know, try to answer them.

1270
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: So much of that work is interior, you know, or

1271
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: you could actually do it with friends and family, but

1272
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 1: it's so like it takes place away from the computer

1273
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: screen and then hopefully you go back and you've got

1274
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: a clearer vision and you've got more focus and you're

1275
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: feeling the plenish and you can tackle like the next,

1276
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: the next thing. But it is it's a really different

1277
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: experience from writing the first book, and which was fast.

1278
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: I mean I wrote it in like ten eleven months.

1279
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: I think this will take longer and I think it

1280
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: will be harder. I joked about it on Twitter recently.

1281
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: I was like, I found it really hard to revisit

1282
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 1: things I've written before, and like, eventually I developed kind

1283
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: of a deep loathing for everything I wrote, like, let's

1284
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 1: say more than three years ago. So I'm not saying

1285
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: the book sex because buy the book and read it.

1286
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: But what I mean is like, as a writer, I

1287
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: do feel like I always have my best works ahead,

1288
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: Like I have to actually believe that in order to

1289
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: keep writing, because it's hard. So um yeah, I mean

1290
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: I keep telling myself like, this is difficult, but like

1291
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: if you can do it, like I think it will

1292
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 1: mean something and I think, you know, I hope it

1293
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: can be. I hope it just builds on like what

1294
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: I've done. And again, you always just hope it means

1295
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,919
Speaker 1: something to someone. Where can people find you? I'm at

1296
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: Nicole s J Chum on both Twitter and Instagram. Yes,

1297
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: and that's how we found you. It's online, um And

1298
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: yes you should also if you haven't already read her

1299
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: book all you can ever know. It's not just for adoptees, obviously.

1300
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: It is a beautiful story about relationships, love, finding yourself, childhood, children,

1301
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: all the things, all the good things in there. So

1302
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm really thankful to you both for like reading the

1303
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: book and taking the time. It was my pleasure to

1304
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: be here. Thank you so much. And now you are

1305
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 1: also one of the people that I will call a

1306
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: close friend because this is what I do. I use

1307
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: the show to make friends with people. Sorry, checks out.

1308
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: I think that's fine. I'm gonna tell everyone this is

1309
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:36,959
Speaker 1: my close friend Nicole. Yeah, you're gonna read her book.

1310
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: We've talked for a while. I think I think it's

1311
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: a solid and that brings us to the end of

1312
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: this very special edition of book Club. So thank you

1313
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: so much Nicole for joining us. I cannot say how

1314
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: much this meant to me on a personal level, and

1315
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 1: and we do want to eventually come back and revisit

1316
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: the conversation of females and women, baby girls being adopted

1317
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: more so than boys and sons, in this whole conversation

1318
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 1: of why our son's preferred over daughters. And I know

1319
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: this has been in a conversation before in our podcast previously.

1320
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 1: I know the controversy of trans racial adoption has already

1321
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: been talked about, but kind of digging deeper up this

1322
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: value of you know, male or female and then the

1323
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 1: complexity of adoption how it gets intertwined. So we do

1324
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: want to talk about that too. For those who are like, wait,

1325
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 1: this is not specific to feminism, get it, um, but

1326
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it was such a personal thing for

1327
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: me and um. Having her as a writer who is

1328
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: a strong mother, sister, daughter, in playing this whole scenario

1329
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: her life out for the public has been a privilege

1330
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: to discuss with our So again, thank you Nicole for

1331
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: being a part of this. For those who stuck around

1332
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: and listen to the whole thing. I hope you did,

1333
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: because it was really fun for us to do. For

1334
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: for me specifically, thank you for listening and kind of

1335
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: digging into what it is to see in this type

1336
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 1: of life and childhood. Yes, yes, absolutely, and uh I

1337
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 1: cannot recommend it enough. It did occur to me that, like,

1338
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's made the final cut, but

1339
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 1: you kept bringing up my fan fiction and she Nicole asked,

1340
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 1: what fandoms are you writer? Do you write? I was

1341
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: like Harry Potter and Star Wars, which are both like

1342
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,479
Speaker 1: use adoption um as kind of a plot point, and

1343
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: you were what you helped me understand that better for

1344
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: my fan fiction, Semantha. It came to Leah and Luke.

1345
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, so just in thinking about that, how

1346
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 1: often we do see that intermedia? Um? But yes, yes,

1347
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: uh so thanks again to Nicole. If you have any

1348
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 1: recommendations for our next book club, we're all ears, thanks

1349
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: to anyone, to everyone who's already sent them. Um, we

1350
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 1: are keeping a list, we do. You keep track, but

1351
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 1: keep them coming. You can email us at Stuff Media,

1352
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com, or you can

1353
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at Mom's Stuff podcast or on

1354
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 1: Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks It's always

1355
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 1: to our super producer Andrew Howard, thank you, and thanks

1356
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You the

1357
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,719
Speaker 1: protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio,

1358
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1359
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.