Speaker 1: Check it down, man, Now down, man, it's the Beating
Speaker 1: the Book podcast, He'll ask, and I hope you're doing well.
Speaker 1: I hope you're staying safe during this global pandemont more
Speaker 1: pods for you for your enjoyment during this strange time.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing a numbers game at Visa this week,
Speaker 1: but decided I want to put out a pod here
Speaker 1: and add an exclusive podcast segment at the very end.
Speaker 1: This is all about the Last Dance ESPN part docuseries
Speaker 1: on the final year of Michael Jordan's six championship run
Speaker 1: in the nineties. UM. Such a great docuseries in so
Speaker 1: many ways, but I've tried to sort of say things
Speaker 1: that others aren't necessarily uh during the course of events.
Speaker 1: Here after parts one and two, after parts three and four,
Speaker 1: and now after parts five and six, talking about reaction
Speaker 1: from both myself and Michael Wilbon you know him best
Speaker 1: from p t I over at ESPN. Adam Stanko from
Speaker 1: the Rejecting the Screen podcast who joins me a couple
Speaker 1: of times on this podcast and wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: some of the half truths in there, some of the
Speaker 1: misleading points in the docuseries, some of the omissions and
Speaker 1: then get into some of the betting lines of the
Speaker 1: biggest games of that stretch. About as comprehensive a look
Speaker 1: at the last dances you will get. Oh and the
Speaker 1: le Bradford Smith's story as well towards the end of
Speaker 1: Scottie Pippen story that you won't hear anywhere else except
Speaker 1: right here on the Beating the Book podcast. Enjoy Welcome
Speaker 1: Back to a Numbers Game with Jill. Alexander's back on
Speaker 1: a Numbers game just like Massett Kill Alexander Live from
Speaker 1: San Francisco series, except channel two oh four. Danny, did
Speaker 1: you get to uh? Do you get to watch the
Speaker 1: first two installments of the ten part document? He's the
Speaker 1: last dance on ESPN last night. You know, now, how
Speaker 1: old are you, Danny? Because you you were not around,
Speaker 1: at least in a conscious way for most of the
Speaker 1: Jordan ears right. Yeah, So I was born in one
Speaker 1: So grew up in Chicago though, so it was ingrained
Speaker 1: in me so ever since I was born. Listen, he's
Speaker 1: the greatest player who's ever lived. I will not be
Speaker 1: drawn into these ridiculous sports radio debates between him and
Speaker 1: Lebron because Lebron is great, but if you ever put
Speaker 1: those two together on the same court in a game
Speaker 1: or series of consequence, you will never get me to
Speaker 1: believe that Michael Jordan's wouldn't UH just mentally win that
Speaker 1: battle because there was no better competitor, and there's nobody
Speaker 1: who could get into uh an opponent's head better than
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan could. But I find it this thing is
Speaker 1: so fascinating. We'll go through the break on this, but
Speaker 1: I you know, the the first thing that that leaps
Speaker 1: to mind from that are the things that I either
Speaker 1: didn't remember or more likely in this case, may not
Speaker 1: have even known, because you know, I was I was
Speaker 1: a kid in junior high when Jordan's was in college. Um,
Speaker 1: and you know in high school, I think when he
Speaker 1: when he went to the pros, and it's there's certain
Speaker 1: things that you you remember, but you don't remember all
Speaker 1: the details of, one of which was, uh this notion
Speaker 1: that in the second year, in his second year, when
Speaker 1: he came back from injury, that he was held to
Speaker 1: a fourteen minute time limit in games down the stretch.
Speaker 1: It was sort of the bulls way of quote unquote
Speaker 1: protecting him but really maybe doing the old tankaroo back
Speaker 1: then as well, and Jordan was having none of it
Speaker 1: that prior to his explosion in the playoffs against the Celtics,
Speaker 1: where he scored forty nine and sixty three and consecutive games,
Speaker 1: even though the Celtics both of those as the Bulls
Speaker 1: entered the playoff and eight six is an eight seed
Speaker 1: after having one just thirty games. I don't remember that
Speaker 1: fourteen minute limit. That was surprising to me. And I
Speaker 1: also don't remember in their you know season, which is
Speaker 1: ostensibly what the Last Dance is about. I don't quite
Speaker 1: remember the Pippin drama as big as it was, Like
Speaker 1: I remember he was out with an injury, but this
Speaker 1: was way worse than I ever thought it was, for
Speaker 1: ever knew that it was. Those two things were shocking
Speaker 1: to me. I want to get back in after the
Speaker 1: break though. I want to get back to the thing
Speaker 1: that I think was the biggest omission from parts one
Speaker 1: and two, something that I remember that at least fifteen
Speaker 1: seconds should have been devoted to because it could have
Speaker 1: changed everything. Get to that. Coming back on a numbers
Speaker 1: game at Visa the Sports Betting Network. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: a Numbers game with you Know Alexander back on the
Speaker 1: numbers Game brought you by the bet MGM app Gil
Speaker 1: Alexander in San Francisco, Daddy Burke in Las Vegas. UH.
Speaker 1: Parts one and two of the Last Dance ESPN S
Speaker 1: docuseries began last night, pushed up from when it was
Speaker 1: supposed to air originally, but during the coronavirus pandemic, all
Speaker 1: the parties involved were like, yeah, let's let's push this up.
Speaker 1: We could probably uh do better. And by the way,
Speaker 1: they're not completely done with production on parts nine and ten,
Speaker 1: but they'll get there by the time we're there. Um,
Speaker 1: So let's flash up this tweet. This is, by the way,
Speaker 1: not the part that I was referring to when I
Speaker 1: think when I when I was saying that something I
Speaker 1: thought was a glaring omission last night. But this is
Speaker 1: David Purdham, which he put out on Believe it was
Speaker 1: Friday about just you know, how amazing for those who
Speaker 1: weren't around at the time and weren't you know, present
Speaker 1: for the amazement that was the two time three peeting
Speaker 1: Chicago Bulls of the nineties. Um, from a betting standpoint,
Speaker 1: the greatest thing about them, as David Perdam tweets here,
Speaker 1: is there amazing streek of being favored in professional basketball
Speaker 1: games UM and Perdam points out our buddy David Pernham
Speaker 1: longest reeks of consecutive games being favored. The Rams held
Speaker 1: that record. The greatest show on turf Rams of the
Speaker 1: turn of the century, fifty seven straight games which they
Speaker 1: were favored. Bama in college football, seventy two straight games
Speaker 1: between uh the Astros, the Cheat and Astros allegedly four
Speaker 1: straight games. I know it was seventeen, don't tweet me.
Speaker 1: But then there's the Bulls from five to ninety seven,
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty five straight games in which they
Speaker 1: were favored. Much of that, of course, the ninety six
Speaker 1: ninety seven version of the Bulls, which won seventy two
Speaker 1: games at the time seventy to ten, the greatest regular
Speaker 1: season of all time. They went on to win their
Speaker 1: fifth title that year. Keep in mind, of course, the
Speaker 1: Warriors broke that with the seventy three and nine season
Speaker 1: middle of the last decade, but that was the year
Speaker 1: the Warriors lost to the Cavaliers UM when they went scoreless.
Speaker 1: It should be pointed out the last four minutes and
Speaker 1: thirty nine seconds of Game seven. The seventy three win
Speaker 1: Warriors anyway, a d eighty five straight games being favored
Speaker 1: by those ninety seven Bulls, so so not having you know,
Speaker 1: been sort of you know, you were an infant when
Speaker 1: they were winning their fifth and six championships. Then Danny
Speaker 1: did those two parts drive home for you more than
Speaker 1: you ever kind of could figure just how huge they were.
Speaker 1: I mean, just growing up in Chicago myself, I knew
Speaker 1: that I had to, you know it, study as much
Speaker 1: on Jordan as I needed to. And it wasn't even
Speaker 1: because it was a necessity. Obviously I wanted to. I mean,
Speaker 1: I love watching the guy in old highlights and whatnot.
Speaker 1: But the thing that stood out to me that I
Speaker 1: didn't really know as much until watching this documentary Gil
Speaker 1: is just the upper management. How things were so transparent
Speaker 1: back then. I mean, Jerry Kross openly saying that it
Speaker 1: was gonna be Phills last season. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: that's pretty evident, but more so the whole Scottie Pippen
Speaker 1: debacle was very interesting to me, basically how that was
Speaker 1: just such a mess. And he's openly saying that he's
Speaker 1: gonna get traded here and he's just incredibly underpaid. Now
Speaker 1: I know, it's relative back then to what it is now,
Speaker 1: but still people put it up to a scale. It's
Speaker 1: just ridiculous to see that kill. I mean, how underappreciate
Speaker 1: and undervalued he was at the time. And I think
Speaker 1: Jordan's says the best when if you mentioned my name,
Speaker 1: you also have to mention Scottie Pippen. I think that's
Speaker 1: the most, you know, the most prominent thing that Jordan does,
Speaker 1: and to recognizes that he's not taking all the credit
Speaker 1: in at any point just himself. He's always giving credit
Speaker 1: to his team and especially to Scottie Pippen. So that's
Speaker 1: always fascinating to see and you have to appreciate as
Speaker 1: being a fan. Yeah no, and I thought Jordan came
Speaker 1: off well with that. Listen, uh, Danny, I had Scottie
Speaker 1: Pippen shoes. I didn't have Michael Joe, I didn't have
Speaker 1: Airic Jordan's. I still have my Pippen somewhere. I loved
Speaker 1: those shoes. I mean that Scotti Pippen was one of
Speaker 1: the top fifty players of all time in the National
Speaker 1: Basketball so Station. And it should be pointed out that
Speaker 1: between the two three peats, when Jordan went off and
Speaker 1: played best played baseball, which will get to I'm sure
Speaker 1: as the docuseries continues. Scottie Pippen was undoubtedly one of
Speaker 1: the best handful of players in the NBA, arguably could
Speaker 1: have been m VP season absolutely so um, there's that.
Speaker 1: But but getting back to because I want to creshdo
Speaker 1: up to to what I think was the big omission,
Speaker 1: the things that surprised me again or the things that
Speaker 1: I that I didn't know the fourteen minute limit for
Speaker 1: Jordan in his second season down the stretch after the injury,
Speaker 1: and how he rebelled against that whole Tanka Tanka palosa
Speaker 1: uh notion from the Bulls under the guise of protecting
Speaker 1: Jordan's I didn't know about the extent to the Pippin drama.
Speaker 1: The final year that contract, by the way, is horrific,
Speaker 1: and I know that, like Scotti Pippens, that he had
Speaker 1: to you know, you know, he wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: his family was cure and I get that. But Okay,
Speaker 1: there's like a happy medium in there somewhere like that
Speaker 1: was a seven year deal for eighteen million. Just by contrast,
Speaker 1: to give you an idea, Danny Joewan Howard of the
Speaker 1: Bullets signed a deal in n and I do mean Bullets,
Speaker 1: not Wizards for seventeen million a year at that point,
Speaker 1: So think about just how under paid a guy like
Speaker 1: Scottie Pippen was the other thing that that surprised me
Speaker 1: when Scotti Pippen was drafted. Even those of us who
Speaker 1: were basketball fans, and we're huge basketball fans, we had
Speaker 1: never heard of Scottie Pippen, which the docuseries points out
Speaker 1: most people hadn't. I didn't realize that he went to
Speaker 1: Central Arkansas as a manager, a team manager at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Like that little detail. I didn't know either. So I
Speaker 1: think that the docuseries did very well in in really
Speaker 1: as much as you thought you know about the Bulls,
Speaker 1: there were just these few details were like, wow, I
Speaker 1: didn't I didn't realize that. Um. I do think the
Speaker 1: college stories about Jordan, particularly the one about him writing
Speaker 1: home to his mom asking her to send stamps, was
Speaker 1: super relatable, and I thought that was a feel good
Speaker 1: moment of the first two parts, I think everybody can
Speaker 1: relate to that as as former college students. Uh so
Speaker 1: giving you know, shedding light on the fact that at
Speaker 1: one time Mike Jordan's was actually a mere mortal like
Speaker 1: all of us. Uh. But then the thing that I
Speaker 1: thought was the glaring omission. And you won't get this
Speaker 1: probably anywhere else, but as a guy that grew up
Speaker 1: as a Washington Bullets fan when Jordan's came into the league,
Speaker 1: it was it was after his great three years at
Speaker 1: North Carolina, after he won Olympic gold. His very first
Speaker 1: game in the National Basketball Association first regular season game,
Speaker 1: the Bulls are at home against the Washington Bullets. In
Speaker 1: the first half of the first game, Jordan goes up
Speaker 1: for his first slam dunk in his entire NBA career,
Speaker 1: and Ricky mhorn Brus Brothers of the Washington Bullets goes
Speaker 1: underneath him, and Jordan's crashes to the ground on his
Speaker 1: back and on the ground for thirty seconds. His entire
Speaker 1: NBA career could have been over in the first half,
Speaker 1: and I'm not exaggerating that. Somebody's got to find that.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's a YouTube clip, but that
Speaker 1: should have been given ten to fifteen seconds, because that
Speaker 1: really could have been a game changer. Instead, they skipped
Speaker 1: forward to game three. Anyway, one omission and what I
Speaker 1: thought was the great first two parts look forward to
Speaker 1: it moving forward. Um, but that was that was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Ricky Mharne and the Bullets, who were a middling team
Speaker 1: back in the eighties, always one about forty games stuck
Speaker 1: into the playoffs, could have been over all over before
Speaker 1: h Jordan had a chance to win one championship, let
Speaker 1: alone six. Welcome back to a Numbers game with Jil
Speaker 1: Alexander back on the Numbers Game, Kill Alexander live in
Speaker 1: San Francisco. Um, So, Danny, I hate being this guy.
Speaker 1: I know. I'm afraid you're gonna ruin it for us here. Gil.
Speaker 1: Let me just let me just prepose it by saying
Speaker 1: I loved the first two parts of The Last Dance,
Speaker 1: the the documentary, the docuseries that will have ten parts
Speaker 1: in total on ESPN. Great thirty for thirty. Um. Despite
Speaker 1: the fact that yesterday I pointed out, Oh, I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, there was a little omission they could have
Speaker 1: thrown in the fact that an MJ's first game with
Speaker 1: the Bulls, his career might have been ended right there.
Speaker 1: So I thought that was worth ten fifteen seconds. That
Speaker 1: was just a little thing, you know, Because I'm a
Speaker 1: Washington Bullets fan growing up, no one was into the
Speaker 1: NBA or college hoops more than I was as a
Speaker 1: kid who grew up in the DC area, where right
Speaker 1: in the middle of a C C country. I mean,
Speaker 1: we breathed college basketball and loved Jordan's so you know.
Speaker 1: But here's but here's the deal, Danny. And let me
Speaker 1: also just preface it by saying, and you get this.
Speaker 1: You do shows. Um, we all make errors all the time, right, Like,
Speaker 1: there's not a show that goes by Danny where I
Speaker 1: don't make some dumb error. Right, I'll say something that
Speaker 1: I my brain, you know, I'll be thinking one thing
Speaker 1: and then will come out of my mouth differently. But
Speaker 1: we're on live ten hours a week, or I am
Speaker 1: anyway on this show, so so errors happened. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about flipping areas. I'm just talking about You have
Speaker 1: this documentary that, by the way, six point one million
Speaker 1: people watched on Sunday night six point three I think
Speaker 1: for the first hour five point nine million the second hour,
Speaker 1: so by any by any measure, was a fabulous success
Speaker 1: for ESPN. But if you're doing a documentary, you actually
Speaker 1: have the time to vet what it is that you're doing.
Speaker 1: And I even talked about yesterday how there were some
Speaker 1: things that surprised me, and I talked about, Oh, I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that Scottie Pippen drama was quite that big
Speaker 1: heading into the and into season. I didn't realize that
Speaker 1: he was a manager when he when he first got
Speaker 1: onto the Central Arkansas campus and team. But the big
Speaker 1: thing that I didn't recall, if you remember what I
Speaker 1: said yesterday on the show, was I didn't remember this
Speaker 1: fact that much of I believe the second part you'll
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. Was it the second hour
Speaker 1: where they talked about UH Jordan's second year in the
Speaker 1: NBA eight six season, UM that he was on this
Speaker 1: fourteen minute limit UH down the stretch of the season,
Speaker 1: the bulls Jerry Krouse basically saying, yeah, we want to
Speaker 1: protect you from your injury. Jordan had broken his foot
Speaker 1: early in the second year of his NBA career and
Speaker 1: he missed I think sixty four games in total. UH.
Speaker 1: But when he came back late in the season. You know,
Speaker 1: the whole point of much of the documentary the other
Speaker 1: night was, Yeah, he was on this fourteen minute UH
Speaker 1: limit UM restriction and Jordan was super frustrated by it,
Speaker 1: and on and on and on and on. Well, just
Speaker 1: because the kind of guy I am, I decided to
Speaker 1: do a little research on that because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't remember that at all. So I went to Basketball Reference, Danny,
Speaker 1: and if you could flash up my tweet that I
Speaker 1: just tweeted out mere moments ago. These are MJ's minutes
Speaker 1: in all of the games. The minutes are on the
Speaker 1: far left. These are all of MJ's minutes logged in
Speaker 1: the final what is that? Uh, sixteen fifteen games of
Speaker 1: the season, The final fifteen games of the season. Thirteen fourteen, okay,
Speaker 1: those were the first two games back, but then fifteen sixteen, sixteen, nine,
Speaker 1: twenty three, thirty seven, twenty nine, So what are we
Speaker 1: talking about? And again, we all make mistakes, but like,
Speaker 1: that was a huge part of the first couple hours
Speaker 1: of the docuseries, and so in retrospect now when I
Speaker 1: look at that, I'm like, uh, that sucks. That's kind
Speaker 1: of disappointing. I don't know what your reaction is to that,
Speaker 1: but I don't believe in alternative facts, and I thought
Speaker 1: that that was something that if you have time to
Speaker 1: prepare or a docuseries, especially as one as hyped as this,
Speaker 1: one that you could have gotten right. And by the way,
Speaker 1: didn't MJ even say that he had this restriction? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. He definitely emphasized the guild. Now I'm
Speaker 1: curious as if this was just exaggerated, as something's tend
Speaker 1: to be when it comes to as big of a
Speaker 1: stage like this documentary. And maybe they narrowed it down
Speaker 1: to the first couple games because you see it right
Speaker 1: around that area, and then they just made it seem
Speaker 1: like it was expanded even more. That could have been
Speaker 1: something that's the possibility. But yeah, I mean when you
Speaker 1: get down farther in the stretch, it's just completely eliminated
Speaker 1: when they get into April. So it's interesting and I'm
Speaker 1: curious if anything gets brought up more so about it. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: just you know, and this gets into a whole another thing,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to get too deep into it,
Speaker 1: but there's behavioral economics how we tend to remember things
Speaker 1: differently years ago. The Mandela effect is the pop culture
Speaker 1: term for it. Um. Anyway, someone has to bring it up,
Speaker 1: So I thought I'd be that guy, and so I am.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to a numbers game with Jill Alexander I'm
Speaker 1: sort of like, um, um, almost apologetic about this because
Speaker 1: I want to stress how much I love the thirty
Speaker 1: for thirty franchise and how much I still enjoyed the
Speaker 1: Dock despite the fact the last dance dock, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that yesterday I came on and said, oh, I
Speaker 1: wish they had shown this uh Jeff ruland uh Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan's spill in game one of his career, and then
Speaker 1: today much broader than that, like one of the key
Speaker 1: themes of part two of that was this Jerry Krause
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's conflict about limiting him on minutes a minutes
Speaker 1: restriction and that's not even close to being the impression.
Speaker 1: To the facts show that it's not even close to
Speaker 1: being the uh, anywhere near the impression they were given.
Speaker 1: So it's it. Then it makes me wonder, like, how
Speaker 1: many other things in there might I need to question?
Speaker 1: And by the way, you know, maybe did Scottie Pippott
Speaker 1: really was he really a manager at first? In Central
Speaker 1: hard something? I'm just throwing out some stuff. There's other
Speaker 1: stuff in there, uh that I didn't find on my own.
Speaker 1: There's there's one other detail that we just found about
Speaker 1: out about that is clearly not right either. Um, maybe
Speaker 1: I'll bring it up on a subsequent show. So it's
Speaker 1: not like, but this is a big thing for me.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I sheepishly pointed out. I don't know how
Speaker 1: you feel about me pointing pointing it out, Danny, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I had to. It's kind of one
Speaker 1: of those things where it's like, no, don't tell me,
Speaker 1: don't tell me. But at the same time, you need
Speaker 1: to know because when you're watching these documentaries, whatever it
Speaker 1: may be, you assume that everything is factual considering they're
Speaker 1: studying just you know, this one subject. So uh, it
Speaker 1: makes sense that it would be something that you would
Speaker 1: really want to search and find out about and more
Speaker 1: stuff continuing on, considering we have eight more episodes. So uh,
Speaker 1: it's not enough to where me personally you pointing it out.
Speaker 1: It doesn't really ruin anything for me. It's just kind
Speaker 1: of something where it's like, oh, I'm surprised it went
Speaker 1: that direction. If anything, it's not more that it, you know,
Speaker 1: ruined his character or something. It didn't really alter anything
Speaker 1: I assume in anybody's minds. But like I said, it's
Speaker 1: interesting to note and it deserves to be factual. So well, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's let's put it this way. Am I still gonna
Speaker 1: watch parts three through ten? Of course i am. I
Speaker 1: enjoyed the hell out of it, and I'm an m J.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing and it needs to
Speaker 1: be stressed. No one was more of an m J
Speaker 1: freak than I was in junior high and high school
Speaker 1: and beyond, um, nothing was as big as college hoops.
Speaker 1: I mean, really, when you grow up in the DC area,
Speaker 1: it's the Redskins during the fall, and then it's basketball.
Speaker 1: It's college basketball, it's high school basketball. I went to
Speaker 1: basketball camp with all the DC greats who were like
Speaker 1: my coaches and went on to college basketball fame. So like,
Speaker 1: no one was more Jordan than a CC obsessed that
Speaker 1: we were so anyway, uh, and then into his NBA career,
Speaker 1: So I just felt the need to point out, but yeah,
Speaker 1: is it gonna take me away from watching it? Of
Speaker 1: course not. But you know, um, just to set the
Speaker 1: game with Jill Alexander Gill Alexander uh my next guest
Speaker 1: and I first met out of all places, randomly Peer
Speaker 1: thirty nine in San Francisco back in n I believe
Speaker 1: he was on the way to the Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan,
Speaker 1: And he told me a story that day that when
Speaker 1: he used to watch his beloved Chicago Bulls and his
Speaker 1: friend Michael Jordans, sometimes his then newlywed wife would steal
Speaker 1: the remote, turn off the TV, stand in front of
Speaker 1: the TV and say, tell me you love me more
Speaker 1: than Michael Jordan's. And after about three attempts at this, uh,
Speaker 1: he would finally relent and say, okay, okay, I love
Speaker 1: you more than I love Scottie Pippen. Now give me
Speaker 1: back the remote, Ladies and gentlemen, half the p t
Speaker 1: I crew along with Tony Cordeiser. It's the great Michael Wilbon.
Speaker 1: Good morning, Michael, Good morning. How do you remember this stuff?
Speaker 1: How do you remember? Promise? I never forgot that story.
Speaker 1: I I never forgot out that. I'm hoping to see
Speaker 1: if we can coax uh one of your favorite Jordan's
Speaker 1: stories out of you. Uh coming up here, But first, um,
Speaker 1: you know it occurs to me. You just wrote this
Speaker 1: piece at at The Undefeated Undefeated dot com. For those
Speaker 1: who don't know, it's called The Last Dance, revealing a
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan You've never seen before. Among the details in there.
Speaker 1: You talked about how you would have named your son
Speaker 1: Jordan had it not been for your brother beating it
Speaker 1: to meeting you to his son. But was there anything
Speaker 1: I guess what's interesting to me is was there anything
Speaker 1: in the first two episodes of this because you said
Speaker 1: you resisted the urge to watch more than the two.
Speaker 1: Was there anything in the first two episodes where someone
Speaker 1: who knows Michael as well as you do and follows
Speaker 1: that team as closely as you do that surprised you
Speaker 1: or that you learned. Sure, I mean, you were not
Speaker 1: around for the flights, team flights and locker room things
Speaker 1: and and and you know, sort of private meetings and
Speaker 1: discussions and and you know, even if you're sort of
Speaker 1: previewed some of it, you know you got a lot
Speaker 1: of moving proNTs with with twelve members on team, And
Speaker 1: so I had no idea that Jerry kraus Han told
Speaker 1: Phil Jackson if you go eighty two and oh you're
Speaker 1: still not coming back. I mean, that's the that's a
Speaker 1: that's a stunner when you talk about breaking up a
Speaker 1: team to the general manager. Has that much animosity directed
Speaker 1: toward a coach who winds up winning when it felt
Speaker 1: when eleven rings as a coach and too as a player. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, Jerry Krauss is not in Phil Jackson's class
Speaker 1: when it comes to just sort of basketball royalty. But
Speaker 1: yet he felt the need to tell Phil Jackson that,
Speaker 1: so that that was one of them. Um Michael revealing
Speaker 1: that he walked into a room with his Thean teammates
Speaker 1: and just found like a drug den, which is not
Speaker 1: necessarily shocking when you realize sort of what the NBA
Speaker 1: was and was thought to be. Um in the earlier
Speaker 1: mid eighties and before the league, you know, just had
Speaker 1: to ride herd on people before some of the star
Speaker 1: players that don't No, no, you're not doing that to
Speaker 1: my career. But you know, those are two of the
Speaker 1: things that jumped out at me as well. No, I
Speaker 1: I I this, and I don't have any uh pretense
Speaker 1: of knowing everything that's going to be in this documentary
Speaker 1: As a magic I'm looking forward to seeing all the
Speaker 1: things they don't know. Were you right now? I grew
Speaker 1: up a Washington Bullets fan. I grew up reading you
Speaker 1: in the Washington Post. One of the things I was
Speaker 1: mentioning the other day on the show I remember his
Speaker 1: very first Michael Jordan's very first game as a Chicago
Speaker 1: Bull was against the Bullets. We even ran the video
Speaker 1: of this the other day. First half, first dunk attempt,
Speaker 1: he gets caught up over Jeff Ruland and he lands
Speaker 1: on his back. He's on the ground for thirty seconds.
Speaker 1: Do you remember that as as vividly as I do?
Speaker 1: And yeah, not at all, because because they must the
Speaker 1: game was in Chicago. Yeah it must have been. But
Speaker 1: I know I couldn't have told you that. I couldn't
Speaker 1: have told you that. I remember I remember calling my brother,
Speaker 1: who's his season ticket holder Bull season to get older
Speaker 1: even now, and I remember calling him like I would
Speaker 1: every night, essentially every game of Jordan's rookie season. Because
Speaker 1: it was no league pass, you could see the local
Speaker 1: market games. I don't even know where I was in
Speaker 1: terms of what I might have been covering, but I
Speaker 1: might have been. But I know I didn't see his
Speaker 1: first game because I recalling my brothers saying what did
Speaker 1: Jordan do? And that was the sentence that hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of Chicago and spoke. You know, particularly those first
Speaker 1: those years in which there was no league past. You
Speaker 1: couldn't get the games on television unless they were the
Speaker 1: local the local games and or the local game that night.
Speaker 1: And I think he said he scored twenty three points.
Speaker 1: I think I remember that. We've checked that. But but no,
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was against the Bullets. Stop about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's pretty good, you know. I didn't realize it was
Speaker 1: again and ruling, So that would have been November of
Speaker 1: eighty four, so ruling. I guess Mahorn was one of
Speaker 1: the teams. Well, no more, I wouldn't have been on
Speaker 1: that team yet. Um, I think around heah or maybe
Speaker 1: he or maybe you're right, maybe he was. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I didn't see him on the court, so maybe you're right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. That's the only um the only
Speaker 1: other thing that was sort of surprising to me. I
Speaker 1: was mentioning yesterday the whole you know, I was like, what,
Speaker 1: what didn't I remember that whole fourteen minute limit thing.
Speaker 1: I looked at the box gas like that never happened. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I remember that. The people. Look. That was
Speaker 1: the first bit of friction between Michael and management. UM
Speaker 1: in this case, Jerry Krauss, I guess, yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: Cross was already there by them because Jordan's you know,
Speaker 1: had gone down in North Carolina, as he revealed, and
Speaker 1: people knew about that he was playing pickup games down there.
Speaker 1: But it was a whole different time in terms of monitoring,
Speaker 1: you know, and players being sort of on their own,
Speaker 1: and the constraints at the it on today and the
Speaker 1: sort of watchful nature of of of front offices and
Speaker 1: players relative to nineteen mid nineteen eighties, and so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't remember the specific game where John Packling hits
Speaker 1: the free throw. I mean, it's the jumper to give
Speaker 1: him a win. But it was so funny that Michael,
Speaker 1: of course remembers everything. He remembers everything. He remembers every
Speaker 1: possession of every game, it seems his entire life. And
Speaker 1: the footage to see that and to see how frustrated
Speaker 1: he was squirming on the bench, that was again it
Speaker 1: spoke to the first bit of friction between Michael and
Speaker 1: the Bulls front office, and it was there would be
Speaker 1: a lot of friction by the time we got aft
Speaker 1: to the last dance, you know, you know, fifteen years later. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was not exactly factually accurate, cause they
Speaker 1: make gave the impression that had happened throughout the rest
Speaker 1: of the year. It did happen for a few games,
Speaker 1: and who knows, maybe it did happen in key situations.
Speaker 1: What happened when he came back when he came back
Speaker 1: from the foot injury that he missed sixties seven games. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know it came back from from the foot injury.
Speaker 1: It did happen all of those games. It happened when
Speaker 1: they put him on a minute limit when he came
Speaker 1: back from that injury, and he didn't go after the
Speaker 1: minutes limit until he got to Boston Guard and had
Speaker 1: those great games in the playoffs. Oh, because you know what, Michael,
Speaker 1: I looked at the box scores from eight from the
Speaker 1: late eighty six season, because that was the end of
Speaker 1: his second season, right, yeah, six, So the end of
Speaker 1: the you know, the end of that season. Uh, and
Speaker 1: the box scores tell something very differently. That was sort
Speaker 1: of a discrepancy that a lot of people are talking about, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was that long. So anyway,
Speaker 1: just a point that, uh, we were researching and then
Speaker 1: and there seemed to be a discrepancy. I have to
Speaker 1: ask you this out of contractual obligation because most of
Speaker 1: my audience is a gambling audience. To those conspiracy theorists
Speaker 1: who would say his absence between the two three peats
Speaker 1: was because of something gambling related, you would say there
Speaker 1: was never any people could have hunches all they want, Um,
Speaker 1: there was never you know, if there's something, there was
Speaker 1: anything to that, Um, there would have been more smoke
Speaker 1: and ultimately some fire. And it was it just wasn't.
Speaker 1: Um they just wasn't. I mean people, people poked at
Speaker 1: and prodded at that topic wow for years and particularly
Speaker 1: while he was playing baseball, and it wasn't it just
Speaker 1: it would have come out? Um? I just I don't
Speaker 1: see where I mean. People. David Stern was interviewed a
Speaker 1: million times, Michael a million times, and I can't wait
Speaker 1: till again. I have not watched in advance. I didn't
Speaker 1: want to watch this watch this series that way. I'm
Speaker 1: interested to see how that's addressed. But there's just what's
Speaker 1: what's to it? Like, wouldn't we know more by now?
Speaker 1: Doesn't everything wind up coming out and something like that?
Speaker 1: If it's conspiracy, that means more than two people know
Speaker 1: about it and one't you even know about it just
Speaker 1: as a journal was. I find that people find out
Speaker 1: about it and I just to me, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's a sexy topic, Gil, but there just doesn't see
Speaker 1: them be any there there to me, never has been.
Speaker 1: There's no there there. I would agree with you talking
Speaker 1: to Michael Wilbon, of course, co host the p t
Speaker 1: I with Tony Corneiser at espn UM final two minutes
Speaker 1: here Michael. Then the final question for me to you
Speaker 1: would be, with all of your intimate knowledge of Michael,
Speaker 1: as close as you are to him, is there a
Speaker 1: brief story or something a detail that most of us
Speaker 1: would not know about him that you'd like to share? Well,
Speaker 1: goodness that about detail. I mean there's a million stories
Speaker 1: and how much time we have. One of my favorite
Speaker 1: stories because we're talking about Washington and you being from
Speaker 1: DC and we worked in there. You know it's still
Speaker 1: living there. I'll tell you the story about him coming
Speaker 1: back to Washington his first game back in d C
Speaker 1: after the unretired, and so it's just before the double
Speaker 1: Nickel game he can he's in Washington to play the
Speaker 1: Bullets and it's shooting around about eleven o'clock of the
Speaker 1: morning and a limousine pulls up in front of old
Speaker 1: capitals and which I'm share you remember well. And there's
Speaker 1: an attache or somebody in a long stretched limousine, the
Speaker 1: kind of car you don't even see anymore in the culture.
Speaker 1: And the limousine pulls up, an attach shape gets out
Speaker 1: and says to uh, someone in you know where? Can
Speaker 1: I speak to Tim Hallam? And Tim Hallam was the
Speaker 1: director of Bull's public relations where he ever and it's
Speaker 1: still and Term said, yeah, what's what's going on? And
Speaker 1: he says, I'm I'm with the Crown Princess of any
Speaker 1: names of the country and she would like to meet
Speaker 1: Mr Jordan's. And there's the window goes down as a
Speaker 1: woman in the back of the car of the limousine
Speaker 1: being driven with a tiara, and she looks every bit
Speaker 1: the part of some the crown princess of something or
Speaker 1: somewhere and howums is what? And the guys says repeats,
Speaker 1: I am so so and this is the crown Princess
Speaker 1: of whatever, and she'd like to meet Mr Jordan's. And
Speaker 1: Allen looks at this guy with this day, buddy, there's
Speaker 1: a crown princess in every city that's great, Michael, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. We we gotta run. That's phenomenal, but
Speaker 1: you too. Take care. Michael Wilbon. The name of the
Speaker 1: piece of the last dance reveals of Michael Jordan you've
Speaker 1: never seen before. The undefeated Dot come back to a
Speaker 1: numbers game with you know Alexander. My next guest enjoyed
Speaker 1: the motion picture Romancing the Stone so so much that
Speaker 1: he named his podcast Rejecting the Screen. Ladies and gentlemen,
Speaker 1: it's Adam Stanco. Good morning, Adam, Good morning Gil. Are
Speaker 1: we doing very well? Adam, I don't know. I just
Speaker 1: popped in my head. That's what it sounded like, rejecting
Speaker 1: the screen, which you do with Noah Kaslov. One great
Speaker 1: basketball guest after another. Vin Baker on tap for the
Speaker 1: next one. Is that true? Yeah, Thursday will be Vin Baker.
Speaker 1: We've had a pretty good string recently, Adam or and
Speaker 1: had some traction on his He had some great Kobe stories.
Speaker 1: We've that's a really good guest. But but I'm expecting
Speaker 1: some great things from Vin Baker. It should be good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who had a very interesting trajectory to his career. Let's
Speaker 1: put it that way. You can follow Adam at Nay
Speaker 1: Smith Lives Adam. Of course I have you on because
Speaker 1: parts three and four of the ESPN docuseries The Last
Speaker 1: Dance Fronticling uh the final of Michael Jordan's Scottie Pippen
Speaker 1: in Chicago Bulls six Championship years Um Parts three and
Speaker 1: four aired last night. And the first thing I just
Speaker 1: want to ask you about. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: have this experience because I'm just trying to get it
Speaker 1: some things that others might not have. Maybe others have.
Speaker 1: You're watching Are you watching it with your wife? Let
Speaker 1: me just ask you that, yes, I am. I am, okay,
Speaker 1: whether you're watching wife, you're all I'm gonna say, it's
Speaker 1: dad context my wife. It's not only just a big
Speaker 1: sports fan, but also was a feature producer, did did
Speaker 1: Um productions on Outside Lines and uh E's sixty, so
Speaker 1: she she has done some some long form features to them.
Speaker 1: So she has a greater understanding of storytelling and and
Speaker 1: and sports and sort of the history of sports better
Speaker 1: than I'm probably I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it there.
Speaker 1: She has a good understanding things. Let's just say some
Speaker 1: great contextual knowledge. Have some great contextual knowledge here may
Speaker 1: to use your head mid sentence, Adam, I see what
Speaker 1: you did there. Um, all right, So this might not
Speaker 1: be the best question for you since she has a background.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, it might be the best question
Speaker 1: for you, specifically because of the storytelling aspect. For those
Speaker 1: that you may be watching this with. I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: others have this experience. I'm watching it with my girl,
Speaker 1: who isn't like your wife and doesn't have a background
Speaker 1: in sports like that, but loves watching sports documentaries. She
Speaker 1: had She's having particular trouble following like the Rodman episode,
Speaker 1: specifically right episode three, the first of the two last night,
Speaker 1: how they bounced back and forth in time. For those
Speaker 1: of us who love sports or around during those years,
Speaker 1: we get what they're doing going back and forward in time.
Speaker 1: But I had to constantly sort of reset it for
Speaker 1: her over and over and let her know, Okay, now
Speaker 1: we're here, now we're back here. Did did you and
Speaker 1: or your wife uh have that same experience at all?
Speaker 1: You know, it's that's a great question, uh, most notably
Speaker 1: because we actually talked about that stuff anyway, Because we're
Speaker 1: both in television production, know a lot of people that
Speaker 1: that put together documentaries and so it's actually something we'll
Speaker 1: talk about it. It's interesting because we always discussed the
Speaker 1: idea of that, and if you don't keep things in
Speaker 1: straight chronological order, it's really difficult to tell a story
Speaker 1: that way because you can lose the audience really quick,
Speaker 1: especially when it's not just known and this is now
Speaker 1: some time has passed, so guilt for you and I.
Speaker 1: Whereas a lot of these memories like instantly it's oh,
Speaker 1: that's young Jordan's or that's that's the David Corsine, that's
Speaker 1: that's before Rodman, what have you. Those things, well, they're
Speaker 1: at in our mind are different. I think for for
Speaker 1: the viewer it is, you know, especially younger viewers or
Speaker 1: or people that weren't around or that didn't mean as
Speaker 1: much to them. I think it's a different experience and
Speaker 1: I always think the difficult thing to do period, but
Speaker 1: certainly with this one, it's it's tricky and they're and
Speaker 1: they're playing that game. And at the same time, as
Speaker 1: a filmmaker, I understand the mindset what they're doing because
Speaker 1: you know, their access footage is with you know, season
Speaker 1: and so for them it's that's that's really the gold
Speaker 1: for them. But they have to provide context all throughout,
Speaker 1: especially if you're gonna extend that into a ten part series, Uh,
Speaker 1: for ten hours of coverage, you need to make sure
Speaker 1: you're giving people context. So this is why this matter.
Speaker 1: This is the history with the Pistons. This is the
Speaker 1: importance of Rodman's background. But I think playing around with
Speaker 1: timelines is awful tough, and I do think that, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's tricky and and there are times though even still,
Speaker 1: I mean, my wife will will say what was you know,
Speaker 1: what was that or what was going on? And you know,
Speaker 1: there again has to be provided some context. Uh. And
Speaker 1: also I think the other thing is guilt for me,
Speaker 1: at least the interesting part, even just following along on Twitter,
Speaker 1: I'm shocked at how much people didn't know, and so
Speaker 1: all these things people on Twitter that has made the
Speaker 1: Lebron over Jordan armament especially, they're the one thing, Oh
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, Oh wow that game he was really
Speaker 1: kid Boston in the playoffs. You know it's here. I'm like, Mike,
Speaker 1: you'd have seen that clip a hundred times. You didn't
Speaker 1: watch come fly with me? You talk, you know, So dude,
Speaker 1: I don't know why that bothers me so much, but
Speaker 1: like when when they show like Trey Young's tweet on
Speaker 1: Sports Center afterwards talking about MJM. Just like I don't
Speaker 1: want to hear what your trade. Young won't even around stop,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't care less what he has to say
Speaker 1: about this. I don't want that bothers me so much.
Speaker 1: But just and you're so right about that, Just to
Speaker 1: sort of put it in another context, like I remember
Speaker 1: everywhere I was during every Super Bowl, Like I remember
Speaker 1: whose house I was at, I remember where the TV was,
Speaker 1: I remember if I wasn't watching, you know, like I
Speaker 1: just remember every single Super Bowl, who won, and where
Speaker 1: I was at the time, just because it's so indelible
Speaker 1: as a sports fan in in my mind. There's very
Speaker 1: few other things I remember that vividly as to where
Speaker 1: exactly I was. But when Michael Jordan did all of
Speaker 1: these individual things, I remember exactly where I was. The
Speaker 1: shot over Elo in college, was going out that night,
Speaker 1: uh to a certain place. I remember exactly how I
Speaker 1: ran out to go out right after that. Uh. The
Speaker 1: shot in the finals against the Lakers where he puts
Speaker 1: it up with one hand and lays it in with
Speaker 1: the left. I remember where I was. You know that's
Speaker 1: how amazing this guy was. Yeah. Yeah, And and Gil,
Speaker 1: what's really interesting about about me saying that is like, again,
Speaker 1: these these memories are so vivid. I mean, when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, it was I was in a huge
Speaker 1: Michael um I was a huge Issaiah Thomas fan, and
Speaker 1: I was a fan of those Pistons teams. My brother
Speaker 1: was a big Bulls fan. And so for us there
Speaker 1: it was a great understanding of how the Bulls just
Speaker 1: could not get over the pump with the Pistons, and
Speaker 1: knowing that the Pistons had just been through that same
Speaker 1: trial by fire experience in the playoffs against the Celtics,
Speaker 1: that the Pistons just could not beat the Celtics, and
Speaker 1: it's understanding that contextually is huge. And also so for us,
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff is stuff we've seen and
Speaker 1: it's like, oh wow, look at this, and it's I
Speaker 1: haven't seen this footage in a few years, but I
Speaker 1: had always seen it. But what's wild is it's it's
Speaker 1: the stuff that they've added and the layers they've added
Speaker 1: that no one has ever seen before. Michael Jordan's you know,
Speaker 1: on on a team plane with Scottie Barrell and talking
Speaker 1: of the joking about Scott Barrell being an alcoholic like
Speaker 1: humanizers Mike in a way that I don't think we've
Speaker 1: seen before. And those are the moments, so that in
Speaker 1: a way we're talking about, you know, referencing, having people
Speaker 1: actually come out and talk about the Rang Harper stuff
Speaker 1: and Saint Hey, he should have been the one guarding Jordan,
Speaker 1: although we we've sort of heard those things before, but
Speaker 1: it's it's how Ron Harper reacted. It was so great, Adam,
Speaker 1: let me put a bookmark in that will come right
Speaker 1: back talk more about this the Last Dance Parts three
Speaker 1: and four, so much talking about and since he brings
Speaker 1: up Isaiah, let's start there. Next on a numbers game
Speaker 1: at Visa with Adam Stanko right here Series Sex and
Speaker 1: Channel two oh four. Welcome back to a Numbers Game
Speaker 1: with Jill, Alexander Gill, Alexander, Adam Stanko from the Rejecting
Speaker 1: the Screen podcast TALKINGT thirties, the Last Dance, the Final
Speaker 1: Leader of the Uh Michael Jordan's Scotty Pip in Chicago
Speaker 1: Bulls Championship Round the sixth of the six seasons. You
Speaker 1: mentioned the Scotty barrel detail from last night Scotty Burrell's
Speaker 1: been dreading that footage for twenty years. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: the Ron Harper reaction to Lenny wilkins decision to put
Speaker 1: Craig Elo on Jordan in that final sequence of the
Speaker 1: Calves series in nine. Uh yeah, okay, f that bs
Speaker 1: was Ron Harper's quote, um, you know, and there's there's
Speaker 1: always there's always things. Also from the first part where
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, what didn't I remember? This is
Speaker 1: the other trick that that time does to you, and
Speaker 1: the first couple episodes, I was like, all right, I
Speaker 1: didn't know Scottie Pippen was a manager when he first
Speaker 1: started at Central Arkansas. And the other detail I didn't
Speaker 1: remember was the four team in a time limit, which
Speaker 1: turns out there was a reason I didn't remember that
Speaker 1: because it actually didn't happen the way they said it did. Uh.
Speaker 1: Last night. For me, it was two things also. One
Speaker 1: was I didn't remember that when this that when the
Speaker 1: Bulls finally beat the Pistons, it was by sweep. I
Speaker 1: did not recall that detail. Adam, Yeah, it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: And again I think part of that just because we
Speaker 1: think about again how art it was for the Bulls
Speaker 1: to get over them. We think about these grueling series
Speaker 1: and the Jordan rules, you know, Sam Smith's book and
Speaker 1: all that. But you think back to that time and
Speaker 1: we think about it as they were never going to
Speaker 1: beat the Pistons. So you think when they finally do
Speaker 1: to me some long grueling series and instead yes, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, It's funny how how memory plays tricks
Speaker 1: like that that that it was. It was, as you
Speaker 1: point out, a sweet what was the other one for you? Gil?
Speaker 1: The other one was and and this is the one
Speaker 1: I'm more embarrassed by. I You know, listen, I remember
Speaker 1: the Scottie Pippen thing in the in the year between
Speaker 1: Jordan's three peats where he refused to you know, Phil
Speaker 1: Jackson wasn't setting up the play for him, and so
Speaker 1: he didn't go in the game, and then Cucko chits
Speaker 1: the game winner against the Knicks. I remember details of
Speaker 1: Pippen's career pretty much left and right, but I had
Speaker 1: no recollection that that game seven, the year before the
Speaker 1: Bulls finally broke through against the Pistons, was the Scottie
Speaker 1: Pippen Migrain game. I have no memory of that whatsoever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that's funny, should they you should say that it's
Speaker 1: and in a weird way for me, some of these
Speaker 1: have uh you know, melded together and now the documentary
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, that's right, that's how that happened. You know.
Speaker 1: There there's start of these moments that are still brought
Speaker 1: up in time or more. And again I think it
Speaker 1: goes back to like us having a different understanding being
Speaker 1: not to say a bit older probably, but but this
Speaker 1: younger generation of not understanding any of this stuff and
Speaker 1: and not getting context. And of course the hard part
Speaker 1: with all this is is that you need, like you
Speaker 1: need the full picture to understand who MJ is and
Speaker 1: and what I'm really glad about with the documentary is
Speaker 1: not so much is not this argument about the greatest
Speaker 1: of all time, which is part of the reason Jordan
Speaker 1: released this. I mean this footage I had are about
Speaker 1: twenty years ago from people who were working in NBA
Speaker 1: Entertainment and they were telling me about footage they had
Speaker 1: logged and oh this crazy behind the scenes stuff and
Speaker 1: all this and one day they're gonna release And it
Speaker 1: was always sort of talked about, and you didn't think
Speaker 1: you'd ever'd ever see the light of day. It was
Speaker 1: sort of this project that I didn't kind of believe, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, like rumors about certain NBA players that we hear,
Speaker 1: we got I don't know if that's true. And it
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you get verified one day and
Speaker 1: and you know, in the remote Shelburne article he talked
Speaker 1: about that, it was. It was released after you know,
Speaker 1: um two thousand and sixteen. He was like, all right,
Speaker 1: it's time, you know, Jordan finally agreed to it. It was,
Speaker 1: it was he had the keys to this. But the
Speaker 1: interesting thing isn't so much for me about the goat argument,
Speaker 1: because I don't think I don't have an argument there.
Speaker 1: I think Jordan is the greatest of all time. I
Speaker 1: think what's great because I love looking back and getting
Speaker 1: a sense of what was going on in that era
Speaker 1: and at that time, and I think just an appreciation
Speaker 1: of sort of a guy's career and what they went
Speaker 1: through and and just again it's their stories now I
Speaker 1: remember them, and I think that's you know, partly how
Speaker 1: memory works. I remember them as these you know, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a Migraine game, or uh, Dennis Rodman kicks the cameraman,
Speaker 1: you know, you have these moments if you remember the
Speaker 1: push off for the shots. But again putting some things
Speaker 1: into perspective, I think it's interesting and even that Ron
Speaker 1: Harper thing, just just go back for a moment of
Speaker 1: that that game five I was I was watching last
Speaker 1: night after the documentary, I went pulled up that game.
Speaker 1: It was interesting. Ron Harper was on Jordan the entire
Speaker 1: time and there was no question he was. He was
Speaker 1: a better defender at that time. Ron Harper's superior athlete,
Speaker 1: great leaper was giving Jordan. I know, he wasn't giving
Speaker 1: him fits by any by any stretch, but it was
Speaker 1: like the you know, it's like the Bill Buckner game
Speaker 1: where all of a sudden people were like Bill Buckner
Speaker 1: shouldn't even been in the game. It was the same thing.
Speaker 1: There's no reason to think Craig Elo, as supposed to
Speaker 1: Ron Harper should have been guarding jordans on on that shot.
Speaker 1: And also Jordan had shot really poorly from the mid range,
Speaker 1: like throughout that game he was missing everything, so that
Speaker 1: also made the shot even even more spectacular. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's for me, a lot of this stuff has
Speaker 1: been really cool to go back and and then also
Speaker 1: having other contextual knowledge. Like I'm reading Phil Jackson's book
Speaker 1: Levin Rings, and in it he provide some other context
Speaker 1: to the Jerry Krauss relationship. Jerry Krauss wanted to draft
Speaker 1: Phil Jackson out of college when when Phil jacksons in
Speaker 1: North Dakota and Phil Jackson was drafted by the Knicks
Speaker 1: in the second round, Jerry Krauss thought he'd last till
Speaker 1: the third round. Jerry Krauss was the head scout for
Speaker 1: the bullet and he said for years Jerry Cross was
Speaker 1: kicking himself that Phil Jackson, that he didn't move up,
Speaker 1: that they didn't go up and get him in the
Speaker 1: second round. They thought for sure he'd last to the
Speaker 1: third round when they actually had you know, more than
Speaker 1: two rounds back then for the NBA draft. And it's
Speaker 1: just really interesting that that's where their relationship even started.
Speaker 1: And then Krauss always had his eye on Phil Jackson
Speaker 1: as a coach and of course brought him in his
Speaker 1: assistant and the rest is history. But uh, providing some
Speaker 1: of them other contexts, I think he's always really important
Speaker 1: for the full, full, full story, at least as far
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. Yeah, I think you're right, and Jerry
Speaker 1: Krauss gets murdered in this in this documentary, and honestly,
Speaker 1: he deserves a lot of credit for building that team
Speaker 1: around Jordan. By the way, one of the great moments
Speaker 1: of the Docks so far arey crowds dancing in that
Speaker 1: bus after they beat the Pistons, uh while the while
Speaker 1: they played, and I love the music they chose. They
Speaker 1: they chose cool Moo d Uh How you Like Me Now,
Speaker 1: which was really the the the hit that put coolmo
Speaker 1: dal on the map for real. Uh. And I was
Speaker 1: so charged up during that scene because of that music.
Speaker 1: We're talking to Adam Stanko from the Rejecting the Screen
Speaker 1: podcast um. By the way, also for basketball heads, because
Speaker 1: I know you're you're super into it as well. I
Speaker 1: talked about that Kauai shot against the six Or's a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago for the Raptors on their way
Speaker 1: to the NBA Championship. How you could have done We
Speaker 1: could have done two segments on that shot alone, how
Speaker 1: the ball looked like it changed in mid air before
Speaker 1: it bounced four times on the rim. That shot Jordan
Speaker 1: hit over Elo, like if you really break that shot down,
Speaker 1: he had to like take that ball moved in his hand.
Speaker 1: He had to almost re grip it. Just it just amazing.
Speaker 1: And we got a different angle from the documentary of
Speaker 1: it too, which I thought was interesting. Before we go
Speaker 1: here him Isaiah specifically, And and I was listening to
Speaker 1: something Reggie Miller was on with Dan Patrick last week,
Speaker 1: I believe, And Reggie Miller was on for about twenty
Speaker 1: minutes talking about that. You know, Dan Patrick hasn't if
Speaker 1: you like ran into Michael today, what would you do?
Speaker 1: And Reggie Miller was like, I might punch him in
Speaker 1: the face. But Reggie Miller is really thoughtful and really deliberate,
Speaker 1: chooses words very carefully. What he meant by that was
Speaker 1: just it hurts him so much. He loved the competition.
Speaker 1: He knows Michael's the greatest. I know, you're an Isaiah guy,
Speaker 1: but I'm with Mike on this, Like, come on, man,
Speaker 1: you're still defending your actions back then. I don't buy
Speaker 1: into that whole Oh, the Celtics did this, so we
Speaker 1: did at things. How about the fact that Jordan and
Speaker 1: them shook your hands both years? Oh, listen, I mean
Speaker 1: it's indefensible and and it's it's really sad because in
Speaker 1: a way, not only was it a bad mark on
Speaker 1: on Isaiah's career, and but also at a time it
Speaker 1: actually really hurt him. I mean, you have to keep
Speaker 1: in mind that that before it left a sour tastes
Speaker 1: in the mouth because of the rivalry with Jordan and Pippen,
Speaker 1: and Jordan and Pippen actively kept Isaiah Thomas off the
Speaker 1: Dream Team in two, which I think is just one
Speaker 1: of the great travesties of all time. I mean, we
Speaker 1: forget that Isaiah Thomas one back to back titles in
Speaker 1: an error when Bird, Magic and Jordan were all playing
Speaker 1: Jordan in the prime of his career. So you know,
Speaker 1: I think if you there's a player in history that's
Speaker 1: been under appreciated, I think east Isaiah and and in
Speaker 1: large part because of that one action. And again it's
Speaker 1: not just because he did that, but that that idea
Speaker 1: that he's been defending it for so long, and and
Speaker 1: it's weird because it has always been sort of a
Speaker 1: paradox in that on one hand, he sat down did
Speaker 1: the interview for this documentary, and I think that's remarkable
Speaker 1: that he's doing it. I mean, we haven't heard from
Speaker 1: Joe Dumars yet. I'm sure he said no, A lot
Speaker 1: of the guys on the Pistons may have said, no, Isaiah,
Speaker 1: who had no real reason to do this, has done so.
Speaker 1: He does the interview, so in a way you give
Speaker 1: him credit, like, wow, Isaiah that he talked about MJ
Speaker 1: and and and also throughout his throughout his life. I mean,
Speaker 1: Isaiah has always talked about how much MJ meant to
Speaker 1: the city of Chicago. Um and also you know that
Speaker 1: he was the best player in the n b A
Speaker 1: and and his greatness even though Isaiah got him, I mean,
Speaker 1: Isaiah had beaten him for years, and Isaiah and he
Speaker 1: grew up in Chicago. There was there's a lot of
Speaker 1: reason for their resentment and animosity. But it's weird because
Speaker 1: at my point being that Isaiah has has done so
Speaker 1: many of the right things, and then you come out
Speaker 1: and during that interview instead of saying we shouldn't have
Speaker 1: done it, other teams have done it to us and
Speaker 1: we at the time thought we could have done it.
Speaker 1: But like, you know what, I really regret that you
Speaker 1: say that it's over and instead it becomes again it's
Speaker 1: add more fuel to the fire. And then now people
Speaker 1: even now are like, why did Iaiah do that? Like
Speaker 1: that was a long time ago. But but if Isaiah
Speaker 1: is still defending it, then people ever right to stay that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's because it's like he's still playing to his
Speaker 1: old teammates, like he doesn't want to lose cred with them.
Speaker 1: It's like, dude, we're it's for God's sakes, like let
Speaker 1: that go. Um. I could do two hours with you
Speaker 1: on this and maybe we'll have you back in subsequent weeks.
Speaker 1: Not maybe we will have you back in subsequent weeks
Speaker 1: to do this as a recap last thing. And I
Speaker 1: only have ten seconds here for the answer. But am
Speaker 1: I right to beat the fourteen minute limit? Thing? Never happened?
Speaker 1: Horse like A, I don't want to be that one
Speaker 1: guy who's doing it. I'm right to say that if
Speaker 1: you're a documentarian, document correctly. Yeah. Absolutely, And we discussed
Speaker 1: this on our podcast, and I'll just say quickly that
Speaker 1: it won'tn't just fourteen minutes. It kept rising and it
Speaker 1: was completely handled partly in the documentary that that information
Speaker 1: was just glad I'm be incorrect. Thank you, Adam, Adam
Speaker 1: Staco rejecting the screen. Adam, take care of your kids,
Speaker 1: enjoy man, be safe right here on a number Back
Speaker 1: to Numbers game with Jill Alexander. Let's talk the Last
Speaker 1: Dance Man for thirty documentary. We're gonna get into some
Speaker 1: of the betting lines here momentarily with Blake Mahoney from
Speaker 1: Sports Arts History dot Com. I was up late at
Speaker 1: night researching these betting lines for the Jordan years. But
Speaker 1: I gotta highlight this once again. And I don't really
Speaker 1: mean the word highlight. I probably should say low light.
Speaker 1: As you know, Danny. Uh. Last week I was on
Speaker 1: the show and I was I had Michael Wilbon on
Speaker 1: Adam Steako to talk about this, and I pointed out
Speaker 1: before all of that, I'm like this whole deal in
Speaker 1: parts one and two where Jordan's the impression we were
Speaker 1: given is that Jordan's, you know, had this fourteen minute
Speaker 1: limit for the rest of the season when he returned
Speaker 1: from injury in his second season. The five excuse me
Speaker 1: the six NBA season was just nonsense and we could
Speaker 1: throw up the tweet that I that I put out.
Speaker 1: I went back and I logged all the games his minutes. Uh.
Speaker 1: Towards the end of the eighties six season, he had
Speaker 1: a fourteen minute cap. Never I mean, maybe the first
Speaker 1: couple of games, right when he came back in mid March,
Speaker 1: thirteen minutes and fourteen minutes. But then it was this
Speaker 1: is all on the left side of the screen fifteen
Speaker 1: sixteen sixty seven, and then twenty nine for the for
Speaker 1: the season ender in the regular season, and it was
Speaker 1: of course non exist in the playoffs. But the impression
Speaker 1: given in the documentary was that this was a limit
Speaker 1: that was killing Jordan for the rest of the regular season,
Speaker 1: and that it was a huge source of conflict between
Speaker 1: him and Jerry Krause. I get it, he still hated
Speaker 1: Jerry Krause. But you're doing a documentary, you're a documentarian.
Speaker 1: You need to give the correct impression. This was they
Speaker 1: devoted in a huge portion of of that of those
Speaker 1: two episodes that at night to this supposed four team
Speaker 1: minute limit. Didn't happen that way. Uh. The other thing
Speaker 1: I sent you there was also they flashed up some standings.
Speaker 1: They had to apologize for this where they flashed up
Speaker 1: standings from an early Jordan's season and if you look
Speaker 1: above the bulls you see wizards and not bullets listed
Speaker 1: and they actually had to come out and apologize there.
Speaker 1: It is right there. They were showing the Bulls record
Speaker 1: their final record in that eighty six Jordan's second season. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Wizards didn't exist. Number six seed, right, there was
Speaker 1: the Bullets. So they had to apologize for that. And
Speaker 1: then you know, I'm thinking I was joking Janey Danny.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, watch them make errors here in
Speaker 1: parts three and four. You know this whole thing about
Speaker 1: Jordan's going to Vegas to get Rodman out of bed
Speaker 1: for this vacation he needed. He never went to Vegas.
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated had to write a piece about it yesterday
Speaker 1: and the director, director Jason Hare, had to admit. He's like, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry we gave that impression. I'm paraphrasing, but he
Speaker 1: actually came out and said, yeah, um, didn't really happen
Speaker 1: that way. I'm sorry that it was a little misleading.
Speaker 1: I'll get you the exact quote a minute. But it's
Speaker 1: just I mean, it's a documentary, daddy, I mean, and
Speaker 1: I keep asking people and folks are starting to come
Speaker 1: to my side. It's like, you gotta get this right.
Speaker 1: Come on. This isn't a two hour live radio show
Speaker 1: where we make mistakes every day. This is something that
Speaker 1: lives in perpetuity. You're absolutely right. I mean when you're
Speaker 1: watching these documentaries, and this one specifically with so much
Speaker 1: you know, excitement around it and everybody waiting for yeah,
Speaker 1: the hype around it, and we're expecting everything to pretty
Speaker 1: much be factual. And that's what you expect out of
Speaker 1: any documentary you watch, specifically this one with so much,
Speaker 1: like you said, hype around it. So when they're kind
Speaker 1: of stretching and fabricating these stories, yeah, it tarnishes it
Speaker 1: a little bit. You get the gist of it overall,
Speaker 1: what they're aiming towards, but they're really just expanding it
Speaker 1: to try to fit this narrative that they're trying to
Speaker 1: push so much. And look, it happens all the time,
Speaker 1: but it shouldn't be a constant thing, especially with this documentary.
Speaker 1: When when I was watching it, at least to Gil,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you felt this way, but when
Speaker 1: they were talking about Rodman going to Vegas, it seemed
Speaker 1: like when they were like Jordan's going to get him
Speaker 1: out of AGAs, it was like, no way, like Jordan's
Speaker 1: just like randomly, also in the season flew to Vegas,
Speaker 1: it seemed a little bit too good to be true. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And by the way, just to clarify, it didn't come
Speaker 1: out of Jordan's mouth, here's the quote from Jason here.
Speaker 1: I wish that we were better at identifying to people
Speaker 1: that Michael didn't get on a plane and go to
Speaker 1: Vegas to get him, but he did grab grab him
Speaker 1: out of bed. Uh. Listen for those three or four
Speaker 1: people on on Twitter who were like I, I didn't
Speaker 1: think he went to Vegas. I rewatched it last night.
Speaker 1: It's between episodes three and four. They totally gave the
Speaker 1: wrong impression betting lines. Next on a numbers game at
Speaker 1: Visa from the Jordan Ears, Welcome back to a numbers
Speaker 1: game with Jill Alexander. It is a numbers game, Gil
Speaker 1: Alexander live from San Francisco. So yesterday, Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we've all been watching The Last Dance thirty for thirty
Speaker 1: doc and I want to stress that, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: while I'm pointing out some of the fake outs, the
Speaker 1: misleading stuf from the documentary, which kind of you know,
Speaker 1: diminishes it for me, it does. Uh, it's still fascinating
Speaker 1: to watch and we all still remember, those of us
Speaker 1: of a certain age still remember living through the Jordan ears,
Speaker 1: and I want to give credit to Chad Rants on
Speaker 1: Twitter who gave me the idea yesterday. He was like, Hey,
Speaker 1: you think you can UH tell us about these betting
Speaker 1: lines on some of these series and the games. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I can't, but that's a great idea.
Speaker 1: I'll have to research it. And he suggested having Chrissy
Speaker 1: your viney or Jimmy on. Chrissy chimed in because I
Speaker 1: did ask him about it, uh, and from a bett
Speaker 1: from the sports book perspective, he said, you're talking about
Speaker 1: Chris andrews Now, I remember the two Utah series, talking
Speaker 1: about the two UH finals, the last two championship finals,
Speaker 1: and the Portland series, which was the one before that,
Speaker 1: so basically the final three beat He said they were
Speaker 1: huge decisions in the book's favor where he was perched
Speaker 1: and UH. He was basically saying, pretty sure we needed
Speaker 1: the Bulls all the time. We needed them versus the
Speaker 1: Lakers in the first championship to overall, Jordan was fine
Speaker 1: with him. He said he sort of felt the rise
Speaker 1: of Jordan's before the curve and UH and adjusted accordingly.
Speaker 1: So that was Chris's reaction to it. And then I remembered.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, I've had this gentleman on many times
Speaker 1: on the show, several times, most prominently, I think most
Speaker 1: recently when we did our whole Best of the Decade
Speaker 1: twenty nine team, where we went through every sport, the
Speaker 1: best sports betting teams of each decade and every sport.
Speaker 1: His name is Blake Mahoney. He's from Sports Betting Odds
Speaker 1: dot com, and we welcome him in now to help
Speaker 1: us through this. Good morning to you, Blake, Good morning.
Speaker 1: How are you doing. I'm doing great man. You're at
Speaker 1: s O History by the way, on Twitter. People should
Speaker 1: know so I because I had from yesterday. You go ahead,
Speaker 1: go ahead. Oh sorry, that that's Sports Odds History dot com.
Speaker 1: By the way, Sports Odds History dot com. We should
Speaker 1: uh yeah on on Twitter though, what's your Twitter handle?
Speaker 1: You got? Uh? Oh history at s O History. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry if I misspoke there. All right, So I got
Speaker 1: most of these So I I looked all of this
Speaker 1: up myself last night. But I want to help. I
Speaker 1: want to if you wonder if you could help us
Speaker 1: fill in the blanks, because your site is fabulous. So
Speaker 1: let's start and we're just gonna highlight through the years here.
Speaker 1: Oh it's phenomenal, dude. I recommend it to anybody who
Speaker 1: wants to look at historical betting odds. Uh. It's about
Speaker 1: as great of a treasure of that as you can
Speaker 1: find anywhere. So let's start with year two. If we
Speaker 1: could blake the famous series that was highlighted in the
Speaker 1: thirty thirty The Last Dance doc. When Jordan's in his
Speaker 1: second year, he came back from injury, um he played
Speaker 1: the last stretch of games in the regular season. They
Speaker 1: ended up playing the Celtics. Bulls were in eight seed,
Speaker 1: Celtics were a one seed, and they highlighted that sixty
Speaker 1: three point game from Jordan's his biggest output ever in
Speaker 1: the playoffs Game two of that series. What was the
Speaker 1: line in that game? Just out of curiosity, right, So
Speaker 1: there are fourteen point underdogs for that game. They were
Speaker 1: coming off Game one where they lost by nineteen and
Speaker 1: they were thirteen a half point on the dogs, and
Speaker 1: in game one they bumped it up just a bit
Speaker 1: for Game two, I see, and ended up losing Game
Speaker 1: two and overtime. So the Bulls backers got the money,
Speaker 1: but Bulls couldn't win any of those games in that series.
Speaker 1: So let me go through and this is what I found,
Speaker 1: and we'll we'll fill in the blanks here. Let's fast
Speaker 1: forward to the years where the Bulls couldn't get past
Speaker 1: the Pistons. So eight eight they play the Pistons in
Speaker 1: the Eastern Conference semis UM. They end up losing that
Speaker 1: series to Detroit four games to one. What was the
Speaker 1: series price in that series, right, So Detroit was while
Speaker 1: Chicago was plus two. Okay, so the year, the first
Speaker 1: year they met, this is the first of three years
Speaker 1: where Detroit beat Chicago in the playoffs. This is the
Speaker 1: first year eight Eastern Conference semis Detroit minus two forty
Speaker 1: as a number two seed, Chicago plus two hundred as
Speaker 1: a three seed in the East, and Detroit beat him
Speaker 1: in five. Then, even more famously, we go to um
Speaker 1: that series, of course, that was highlighted in the documentary
Speaker 1: the famous opening round series against the Cleveland Cavaliers in
Speaker 1: which Jordan hit the game winner over Craig Ilo in
Speaker 1: the deciding Game five at Cleveland. What was the spread
Speaker 1: in that game? Do we have that the Bulls were? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Bulls were plus six going into that game. So
Speaker 1: for the series they were We're plus three fifty, and
Speaker 1: if you remember, Cleveland was hifty seven and twenty five
Speaker 1: that year, and they had actually the second best thread
Speaker 1: record in the Eastern Conference and the only reason they
Speaker 1: were the three seed was because of the NBA seeding
Speaker 1: rules where the other division winner automatically was the two seed.
Speaker 1: And even of the Nicks were thirty that year. Oh,
Speaker 1: very cool, good note. So so the Bulls again plus
Speaker 1: three fifty in that series against the Calves, which they
Speaker 1: end up winning on in five on that Jordan buzzer
Speaker 1: beater over Elo. They were actually plus three fifty in
Speaker 1: the next series, the Eastern Conference semis I believe it
Speaker 1: was against the Knicks. They won that as well. And
Speaker 1: then what were they in the Eastern Conference finals when
Speaker 1: Detroit beats them again plus four fifty plus four fifty,
Speaker 1: that's eight nine. So this is the Eastern Conference Finals.
Speaker 1: The Bulls were plus four fifty as the six Detroit
Speaker 1: number one seed in the East, and minus six fifty.
Speaker 1: Detroit beat him in six games. And then the third
Speaker 1: of the three seasons in which Detroit gets the best
Speaker 1: of the Bulls, this also in the Eastern Conference Finals.
Speaker 1: What was that series price Chicago was plus Detroit mins
Speaker 1: to eight and Detroit beat them in seven. Do you remember,
Speaker 1: because that game seven highlighted in the documentary known as
Speaker 1: the Scottie Pippen Migraine Game. Do you remember do you
Speaker 1: have a note of what the line was for game seven? Specifically? Right,
Speaker 1: the Bulls were seven and seven a half point underdogs,
Speaker 1: seven and a half point underdogs. Do we do we
Speaker 1: know if they covered? I didn't check this part. Do
Speaker 1: we know if they covered at all? They lost by nineteen?
Speaker 1: So yeah, they did not covered. That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: They got crushed in that game. Pip the Pip in
Speaker 1: migrand game. So really what's interesting is the run up
Speaker 1: to the championships. They were, you know, pretty sizeable dogs
Speaker 1: in most of these and and again they hadn't won
Speaker 1: a championship yet. This was still the rise of the Bulls.
Speaker 1: But to know that they were, you know, as big
Speaker 1: as plus four fifty dogs in the nine Eastern Conference
Speaker 1: Finals and then in Game seven of the even though
Speaker 1: they were only plus two twenty in that series, they
Speaker 1: were still huge dogs in Game seven. It's like they
Speaker 1: still weren't you know, people, people who lived through it
Speaker 1: remembered at that time, how you know, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: uh menacing the bad boys were how they were at
Speaker 1: this point, uh, defending champs and were defending champs and
Speaker 1: really the bulls, especially without Pippen. Um, although I don't
Speaker 1: know if we really knew that Pippen wasn't playing in
Speaker 1: that game till late, you know. So that's an interesting
Speaker 1: line because I'm not sure you know that's that's obviously
Speaker 1: the uh you know, I'm getting these lines from from
Speaker 1: uh newspaper archives, so that's kind of the morning line.
Speaker 1: So it could be that that line might have changedly
Speaker 1: not the game time, if there was news about Pippen's migraine,
Speaker 1: I would imagine it did. We'll come back. We'll give
Speaker 1: you all the lines of all the championship years and
Speaker 1: the years in between the two three beats. Those are
Speaker 1: interesting as well. We're Scottie. Pippen ruled the roots coming
Speaker 1: back on the numbers game at Visa these sports Betting Now,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to a numbers game with Gill Alexander. It's
Speaker 1: Gill Alexander. Blake Mahoney from Sports Odds History dot Com
Speaker 1: an invaluable resource, Blake I really appreciated. Uh, let's get
Speaker 1: through these now, these are the championship years the first
Speaker 1: three pet season, they get to the Eastern Conference Finals.
Speaker 1: The Pistons had beaten them the previous three years. The
Speaker 1: Bulls go out and sweep the Pistons. What was the
Speaker 1: series price that year when the Bulls were the number
Speaker 1: one seed? So the Bulls were minus two seventy Pistons
Speaker 1: plus two ten. Okay, still don't see the Bulls yet
Speaker 1: as prohibitive favorites at any of these uh. And then
Speaker 1: in the finals that year they take on the Lakers.
Speaker 1: We saw this in the documentary. The Lakers ended up
Speaker 1: winning game one, and then the Bulls beat them in
Speaker 1: five dominated afterwards, what was the pre flop series price
Speaker 1: in the NBA finals bullskers plus one seventy. And you
Speaker 1: have another great note on your site on November two
Speaker 1: of that season. So November two, you could have gotten
Speaker 1: the Bulls to win the championship at as high as
Speaker 1: seven to one. That's about as high as they got
Speaker 1: at any point in that season, seven to one. Obviously,
Speaker 1: they do end up winning the first of six titles
Speaker 1: with Jordan's Okay, Uh. The Bulls end up in the
Speaker 1: Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks, and the Knicks take
Speaker 1: him to seven. What was the pre flop on that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Bulls probably were huge favorites and they
Speaker 1: got taken a seven there, right, Yeah, so Chicago that
Speaker 1: year was sixty seven and Chicago's minus in that Eastern
Speaker 1: Conference Finals, Wow, and they had to and they had
Speaker 1: to go seven to eliminate the Knicks. Then in the
Speaker 1: NBA Finals, that was the Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks.
Speaker 1: NBA Finals they take on the Portland Trailblazers. That was
Speaker 1: the finals we haven't yet seen in the documentary, but
Speaker 1: that's the one where Michael just starts hitting threes and
Speaker 1: you know, puts his hands in the air like I
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening, looking over at Magic Johnson on
Speaker 1: the side of the court. They played the Blazers. What
Speaker 1: were they pre flop series price minus two fifty, minus
Speaker 1: two fifty, and you could get him. The best price
Speaker 1: you could get on them that year was back in No.
Speaker 1: Number of ninety one at plus two fifty. So again
Speaker 1: like not all that spectacular and minus two fifty, not
Speaker 1: that huge of a favorite in the NBA Finals against
Speaker 1: the Blazers. Then year three of the first three peat
Speaker 1: in the Eastern Conference Finals, they take on the Knicks.
Speaker 1: The Knicks were the number one seed in the Eastern
Speaker 1: Conference that year, and the Bulls were to correct correct
Speaker 1: what was the series price, So Chicago was minus one
Speaker 1: fifty for for that Eastern Conference finals and ended up
Speaker 1: beating them in six games, beat the Knicks in six
Speaker 1: and then finals the third of the first three pet
Speaker 1: the third title they take Charlie. They take on Charles
Speaker 1: Barkley and the Phoenix Suns, where Charles Barkley famously said, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, it's our destiny to win the NBA
Speaker 1: title and Michael Jordan's shot bag, it's your destiny to
Speaker 1: get beat by us. And that's exactly what the Bulls did.
Speaker 1: What were they pre flop series there? Chicago was minus
Speaker 1: to forty and was with Phoenix having the home court.
Speaker 1: With Phoenix having home court, that's right, by the way.
Speaker 1: Best price you get on the Bulls at any point
Speaker 1: that season was plus one twenty on November six. By
Speaker 1: the way, that was one of those strange years where
Speaker 1: you can get him at plus one twenty in November,
Speaker 1: but you'd actually get the best price was actually right
Speaker 1: before the playoffs at three to one, so you can
Speaker 1: get yeah, right, and the Suns were actually the favorites
Speaker 1: going into the playoffs, but that obviously flipped by the
Speaker 1: time they reached the finals. Yeah, all right. Then Jordan
Speaker 1: goes off and he plays baseball. Uh and he plays
Speaker 1: it for he leaves the game of basketball for seventeen
Speaker 1: months total. Uh four season. He's not around at all.
Speaker 1: This is Scottie Pippens year. He is uh at NBA
Speaker 1: All Star. He's a first team NBA All Star, Defensive
Speaker 1: Player of the Year. He is just by any stretch,
Speaker 1: one of the dominant players in the NBA that year.
Speaker 1: We haven't gotten to it in the documentary yet, but
Speaker 1: yet that's what the Bulls were. Their season win total
Speaker 1: was forty four that year. They exceeded it by eleven games,
Speaker 1: had fifty five wins on that season. But they go
Speaker 1: to the Eastern Conference finals. Here the Knicks opportunity to
Speaker 1: play them without Jordan's um And this is the famous
Speaker 1: Game seven, or this is the famous series, I should say,
Speaker 1: where Scottie Pippett actually sits refuses to go in the game.
Speaker 1: The Bulls were up this Game three of this series
Speaker 1: against the Knicks. The Bulls were actually up by twenty.
Speaker 1: They squandered to twenty point lead with one point eight
Speaker 1: seconds left in the game, Phil Jackson draws up a
Speaker 1: play for Tony Ku coach Pippin's like forget this, I'm
Speaker 1: sitting on the bench. Cou coach ends up hitting the
Speaker 1: game winner to put that series at Nick's two. Bulls won,
Speaker 1: So the Bulls stayed alive, but they end up losing
Speaker 1: in seven. What was the pre flop on that series?
Speaker 1: Chicago was plus one sixty and for Game seven they
Speaker 1: were four and a half point underdogs. Four and a
Speaker 1: half point dogs in game seven. Wow? Yeah, New York
Speaker 1: minus one eighties Chicago plus one sixty before the series
Speaker 1: epic seven game series. Uh, then this is the one
Speaker 1: where Michael comes back in mid March, right before the playoffs,
Speaker 1: get some tune up games. In fact, his fourth game back,
Speaker 1: he drops the double nickel at Madison Square Garden. He's
Speaker 1: wearing number forty five. But they get to the Eastern
Speaker 1: Conference Finals, do the Bulls And they take on Penny
Speaker 1: Hardaway Shack in the Orlando Magic and they get beaten six.
Speaker 1: Orlando was the number one seed. The Bulls were like
Speaker 1: the five seed, right because they hadn't had Jordans for
Speaker 1: most of that year. But were they the betting favorite
Speaker 1: in that series? Uh? Sorry, yeah, Chicago was mive and
Speaker 1: that was the for the Eastern Conference. sEH semifinals, So oh, semifinals.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I said finals, right, semifinals, That's right. Orlando
Speaker 1: then ended up going on to win the Eastern Conference
Speaker 1: and then get got swept by the Rockets uh in
Speaker 1: the NBA finals the year after the Rockets beat the Knicks,
Speaker 1: who had beaten the Bulls uh in the Pippin year
Speaker 1: if you will, the non Jordan year, the same series
Speaker 1: as the O. J. Chase UM the Rockets Knicks series
Speaker 1: that went seven games. So the Rockets went back to
Speaker 1: back in Jordan's absence absence literal first year, UM late
Speaker 1: return in that second year in between three pieces. So
Speaker 1: then Jordan's has an offseason to prepare he's back from baseball.
Speaker 1: It's not just this stretch of games in this is
Speaker 1: six season. They win seventy two basketball games, seventy and
Speaker 1: ten and now you see all these pieces were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they could have win, they could have won more. They
Speaker 1: wanted to. Chicago ends up playing the Seattle SuperSonics in
Speaker 1: the finals. What was the pre flop price on the
Speaker 1: seventy two win Bulls in that series they were minus
Speaker 1: nine fifty two Seattle plus six fifty. There you go,
Speaker 1: there's the numbers I'm looking for. Minus nine fifty Seattle
Speaker 1: was plus six fifty coming back, Bulls end up winning
Speaker 1: it in six. I want to say the Bulls went
Speaker 1: up three to nothing and then the Sonics one two,
Speaker 1: and then the Bulls wanted six, but don't hold me
Speaker 1: to that. That's just my recollection of it. Best price
Speaker 1: you could have gotten on the Bulls, by the way,
Speaker 1: to win the title during that seventy two win season
Speaker 1: plus three fifty back on November three, so they win
Speaker 1: their fourth title. They come back in ninety seven. Their
Speaker 1: season win total after the seventy two win season is
Speaker 1: sixty four and a half blake. They end up with
Speaker 1: sixty nine wins. That's all after the seventy two win season.
Speaker 1: UH In ninety ninety seven, this is the first of
Speaker 1: the finals against the Utah Jazz. What was the pre
Speaker 1: flop series price there? Plus four d wow. Geez all right,
Speaker 1: and by the way, the best price you could have
Speaker 1: gotten on the Bulls all that year. After the seventy
Speaker 1: two wins series seventy two win season where they won
Speaker 1: UH their fourth title, as you might imagine, wasn't very
Speaker 1: good plus one hundred on October nineteen ninety six. They
Speaker 1: end up beating the Jazz in the finals in six
Speaker 1: and then the last dance. The season that this ten
Speaker 1: part docuseries on ESPN is based all around, Even though
Speaker 1: they're jumping back and forth. UM, this was a season
Speaker 1: where their win total had dropped to fifty seven and
Speaker 1: a half. As we have seen on this documentary, Scottie
Speaker 1: Pippen was hurt. They didn't you know, he had delayed
Speaker 1: his surgery, so he wasn't gonna play UH for at
Speaker 1: the very least of the first part of the season.
Speaker 1: There was even some doubt as to whether or not
Speaker 1: he would ever play for the Bulls again. So their
Speaker 1: season win total was fifty seven and a half. It
Speaker 1: had been reduced still respect but knowing that Pippin wouldn't
Speaker 1: be there for at least a good spell of it.
Speaker 1: They end up winning sixty two games that year. Um.
Speaker 1: They get to the Eastern Conference finals, though Blake and
Speaker 1: it's the Indiana Pacers and Reggie learned the Pacers have
Speaker 1: been waiting for this for a long time, and this
Speaker 1: was maybe the closest the Bulls ever came to losing.
Speaker 1: They beat the during the run, they beat the Pacers
Speaker 1: in seven. What was their pre file price and what
Speaker 1: was the game seven line six for the series and
Speaker 1: then uh eight point favorites for the for game seven
Speaker 1: and they only end up winted by five, only ended
Speaker 1: up winning by five. And I want to say, and
Speaker 1: again this on memory, I think Tony Kukach went off
Speaker 1: in that game, so like Jordan was still their leading scorer,
Speaker 1: but I think Kach was their second leading scorer. He
Speaker 1: hit a bunch of shots in the second half that
Speaker 1: were key in that game. And so then after getting
Speaker 1: by the Pacers and by the way like in the
Speaker 1: first round of that year, and I hope they continue
Speaker 1: to highlight this in the documentary, like they were on
Speaker 1: their last legs, they were old, like they swept the
Speaker 1: Washington Bullets in the first round. But each of those
Speaker 1: three games was like a sweat for the Bulls. Um
Speaker 1: so they get pass past the Pacers. These are conference finals.
Speaker 1: They played the Jazz again. The Jazz are waiting for
Speaker 1: them yet again. This of course the famous year where
Speaker 1: in game six Jordan and the Bulls win their sixth
Speaker 1: title on the Jordan push off of Byron Russell. What
Speaker 1: was the pre flop price there? So uh Utah had
Speaker 1: home court there, but Chicago was still a slight minus
Speaker 1: one fifteen favorite. Uh and then right, yeah, minus one fifteen,
Speaker 1: minus one fifteen I haven't be minus somewhere in that pocket,
Speaker 1: and the Jazz were justice light dog at plus one
Speaker 1: oh five. The best price you could get on the
Speaker 1: Bulls during the regular season was actually the same price
Speaker 1: you could get them uh for just before the playoffs
Speaker 1: plus one forty on Halloween plus one forty just before
Speaker 1: that postseason. Blake Mahoney at s O History this the
Speaker 1: site is Sports Betting excuse me, Sports Odds History dot com.
Speaker 1: Pardon me, Sports Odds History dot com. Blake uh an
Speaker 1: invaluable resource man. I can't thank you enough. YEA, thank
Speaker 1: you Blake Mahoney, who I had a ball researching that
Speaker 1: stuff last night. Um, and thank you to him for
Speaker 1: filling in all the blanks. Just phenomenal information. That's how
Speaker 1: the Bulls were assessed in the betting markets throughout their
Speaker 1: six championships, in between and before all. Right, now we
Speaker 1: are post episode five and six of ESPST th docuseries
Speaker 1: The Last Dance Still to Come Episode seven to ten.
Speaker 1: But in the week that I was off from work,
Speaker 1: thought i'd uh get some reaction to five and six
Speaker 1: and throw this up as a podcast with our buddy
Speaker 1: from the Rejecting the Screen podcast, Adam Stanko. What's up, Adam?
Speaker 1: How are you to talk to you? Man? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: get to see you man with your city T shirt
Speaker 1: like it. Of course people listening to the podcast see that,
Speaker 1: so that's sort of irrelevant. So alright, five and six.
Speaker 1: I didn't love the episodes, but still nonetheless captivating in
Speaker 1: its own way because we lived it. We lived through
Speaker 1: the Jordan years. What did you think? Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you early on in episode five and for
Speaker 1: refresher for people, it was the all Star stuff and
Speaker 1: the Kobe Bryant stuff. I was still fascinated by by
Speaker 1: some of the behind the scenes video that you don't
Speaker 1: typically get a chance to see. So Jordan talking about
Speaker 1: how Kobe's basically taking it all on himself and all
Speaker 1: he cares about is trying to score and go one
Speaker 1: on one. That's the stuff that's fascinating, and I think
Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating for two reasons. One because Jordan hasn't
Speaker 1: allowed that in the NBA by default hasn't allowed that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff to come out. Right, we haven't seen
Speaker 1: that side of Jordan's as much. They they've sort of
Speaker 1: kept that under lock and key. And also the fact that, like,
Speaker 1: to me, that's that's the interesting part is like the
Speaker 1: stuff that we don't know about already. This a lot
Speaker 1: of these other storylines that the handshakes stuff with the
Speaker 1: pistons that's been blown up, Um yeah, sure, the Jordan's rules, um,
Speaker 1: the Sun Series against Park, like all those kinds of
Speaker 1: things like we yeah, we remember fondly, I mean you know,
Speaker 1: or that oh Jordan was need he needed some encouragement
Speaker 1: to distribute the ball, or that Phil Jackson has an
Speaker 1: affinity for Native American culture. Those are all things I
Speaker 1: knew before stuff. But it's those moments and it's funny
Speaker 1: actually about the Kobe stuff. Buddy of mine worked at
Speaker 1: NBA Entertainment during the stretch where they were logging a
Speaker 1: lot of this footage in the late nineties, and he
Speaker 1: had told me a story at the time that after
Speaker 1: the Bulls had played the Sixers, in a game. Uh.
Speaker 1: The interviewers were asking Jordan's some question about about Iverson,
Speaker 1: and he gave this great answer. You know, oh, the
Speaker 1: kids got a lot of talent. I really appreciate his game.
Speaker 1: He's the future all this stuff. They get to the
Speaker 1: locker room and Jordan's is like behind the scenes now
Speaker 1: and he's like that m F and weed smoker, that
Speaker 1: kid is a punk whatever, and he's like ripping into
Speaker 1: high person and like and you will they have a
Speaker 1: great relation, are they? You know, they have a great
Speaker 1: relationship now. But like that's what his real thoughts were,
Speaker 1: and that's what I always found fascinating, was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what does Jordan really think about the other guys in
Speaker 1: the league? Not what's he going to say to the media.
Speaker 1: So you know that story you just told, So now
Speaker 1: we're now we're sort of getting off the actual documentary itself.
Speaker 1: But the rumor that I heard, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is true or if you've heard this, uh,
Speaker 1: is that you know, the reason that Jordan ultimately decided
Speaker 1: to release the footage is because Jason Hair did the
Speaker 1: Iverson dock and Jordan had been such a fan of
Speaker 1: that dock. But I understand that the reason that Iverson
Speaker 1: is not in this dock is because Jason Hair kind
Speaker 1: of showed him that footage that you were just talking about,
Speaker 1: and Iverson was like that that ain't cool and he's
Speaker 1: not in it. So he idolized Jordan and he might
Speaker 1: have this great relationship, but he's not in the dock
Speaker 1: because of that, because I think Jason Are thought it
Speaker 1: was like sort of a joke to show may look
Speaker 1: look at this, and Iverson was like, yeah, if that so,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true, but that's one of
Speaker 1: the rumors I've heard about this. That's an incredible story.
Speaker 1: Well it's fun that then things come full circle because
Speaker 1: just like when I heard about that at the time
Speaker 1: from from my friend, it was that that's twenty years
Speaker 1: ago that I had heard about that, and it was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: there's this footage no one will ever see, you know,
Speaker 1: it's locked in a vault, like like news crews have
Speaker 1: their blooper stuff. But that's been the thing about the
Speaker 1: Last Dance, and I think that I've I've loved and
Speaker 1: I've appreciated what what and the challenge that Jason Hare
Speaker 1: has and trying to get people to understand context and
Speaker 1: what was going on and what made Jordan's so great
Speaker 1: and what built the bulls. But the timelines get tricky
Speaker 1: is he's going back and forth. And I one of
Speaker 1: the things that I've actually had sort of an issue
Speaker 1: with watching is that. And I know they're trying to
Speaker 1: make you feel as big as possible, but all the
Speaker 1: times that they're coming in and out of break in
Speaker 1: and out of commercial break, you know, for those of
Speaker 1: us that are necessarily in the media business but like
Speaker 1: to go in and out of break, they're using like
Speaker 1: celebrity endorsements, and they're telling little stories and oftentimes they're
Speaker 1: not even great stories. Those are falling so but yeah,
Speaker 1: but they but they but they get because there's so
Speaker 1: much going into the documentary that they sort of become
Speaker 1: part of it. That I I know that ESPN is
Speaker 1: trying to sort of separate it and say, hey, before
Speaker 1: we get to the rest of the last dance, check
Speaker 1: out what Carrello Anthony had to say when he watched
Speaker 1: this game against the Knicks or whatever. But it's like
Speaker 1: it sort of becomes part of the dock and and
Speaker 1: I think in a way like oversaturates it in a
Speaker 1: way with with bad stuff that I don't necessarily need. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, so there's a couple of days you were
Speaker 1: saying there. I'm trying to remember all but one of them.
Speaker 1: Last week when you and I talked, I mentioned if
Speaker 1: you watched this with your wife or your girlfriend, um,
Speaker 1: which might have come off as sexist son. I hope
Speaker 1: it didn't. But it's someone who was not as into
Speaker 1: Jordan's say as you were. Uh, and and you had
Speaker 1: to really explain the timeline to them, even I now,
Speaker 1: I'm starting to get annoyed by the timeline jumps sometimes,
Speaker 1: which I think you might have intimated right there, but
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, just and I had to keep explaining.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, well now they're back to two year
Speaker 1: six champion, you know, the last dance here and and
Speaker 1: again pressent all by saying, Jason Hare had a on
Speaker 1: your mental task. And this is the main thing, because
Speaker 1: most of my comments during this, just in the attempt
Speaker 1: to say something different than no one else is saying,
Speaker 1: have been of this nature of oh, here's what I
Speaker 1: thought was in a mission, Here's what I thought was
Speaker 1: like a half truth or misleading, And so I hope
Speaker 1: it doesn't come across I'm sure inevitably at will that
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, you know, terrible, that's not at all
Speaker 1: what I mean. What I mean is that we were
Speaker 1: all so immersed in Jordan's career, especially like you and
Speaker 1: I who grew up on the East Coast, who grew
Speaker 1: up in and I always say this in d C.
Speaker 1: We were right in the middle of big eastern a
Speaker 1: c C. Country and we were obsessed with Jordan, obsessed
Speaker 1: the Letty bias Michael Jordan's years. So you know, some
Speaker 1: of the things that that came across to me yesterday
Speaker 1: is most of this audience is a gambling focused audience
Speaker 1: and so the most of the folks who are listening
Speaker 1: to this pot are probably gonna be like, wow, I
Speaker 1: wish they really had fleshed out more of the gambling
Speaker 1: allegations part of it. And you know, that's where it
Speaker 1: gets into this whole thing of Jordans had final say
Speaker 1: on this stuff, right like he had final edittorial control.
Speaker 1: So you know, you're not gonna get I mean, you're
Speaker 1: you're going to get the sanitized version. You're not going
Speaker 1: to get. Oh, here's another viewpoint that might have been
Speaker 1: rumored laden or whatever, I happen to believe that, you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't leave the game because of gambling debts. That's
Speaker 1: just my belief. But like I have friends Adam who like,
Speaker 1: no matter what you tell them, no matter like I had,
Speaker 1: you know, just earlier in this podcast, Wilbon was on
Speaker 1: talking about how yeah, it's just there's nothing to it,
Speaker 1: no matter what you tell them, They're like, no, I
Speaker 1: don't believe it. I don't believe it. Like there's some
Speaker 1: people you just can't convince of anything. Well, and you
Speaker 1: know what's interesting too, is during the last dances they
Speaker 1: went went through some of that, it was almost as
Speaker 1: if the media owes Michael Jordan an apology for how
Speaker 1: they treated him with those allegations. And what's what's really
Speaker 1: been the fascinating dynamic to me is someone who knew
Speaker 1: a lot of what had happened at the time, UM
Speaker 1: have heard a bunch of stories, people have recounted those stories,
Speaker 1: people that I've interviewed, what have you. But what really
Speaker 1: interesting is that I can now look at it with
Speaker 1: a different perspective as if, okay, if this happens now
Speaker 1: to some of the guys now And and I've been
Speaker 1: sometimes critical of Lebron and some of the other superstars
Speaker 1: in the league. And I look at it like, man,
Speaker 1: can you imagine now, if Lebron James there was a
Speaker 1: check for fifty seven thousand dollars to some shady characters
Speaker 1: elin or something slim. I mean, yeah, it's just and
Speaker 1: it wasn't just him, it was it was other guys
Speaker 1: that did Jordan had these associations with now and and
Speaker 1: Jordan was able to just say, like, okay, I learned
Speaker 1: my lesson. You know, I should try to figure out
Speaker 1: the guys I'm playing golf with, which First of all,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that stopped Jordan in the future. He's
Speaker 1: gonna force him and he's like, wait, who's this guy?
Speaker 1: We're not playing with this guy like that. Of course
Speaker 1: that didn't happen. I think the big thing that that
Speaker 1: that does need to be examined was like, at what level?
Speaker 1: There's no question that that dominated a part of his life. Now,
Speaker 1: he was such a great athlete that, like addman who
Speaker 1: could use partying and go out and do that all
Speaker 1: night long and still it not affects his play. Jordan
Speaker 1: was able to overcome his you know, all night long
Speaker 1: gambling binges and stuff. But that doesn't mean that there
Speaker 1: wasn't there weren't issues there per se, or that it
Speaker 1: wasn't an addiction for him, or that you know, certainly
Speaker 1: the characters he was involved with were that there's there's
Speaker 1: a lot that went on. I don't. I am a
Speaker 1: firm believer, and I'd like to say on record, like
Speaker 1: I do not believe at all that he was gambling
Speaker 1: on games or or anything else. And I also do
Speaker 1: believe what he said that, Like he's so competitive and
Speaker 1: I love that that quarter the quarter game they were
Speaker 1: playing like that, it is just the stuff that's just amazing.
Speaker 1: You see he's about to take the security guards twenty box,
Speaker 1: Like that's the best part of all. Like it's so nuts.
Speaker 1: But but like it's his competitive nature. Is that no
Speaker 1: matter what it's, I'm gonna bet on myself to win.
Speaker 1: Like that's just that's who he is, like that one
Speaker 1: and anyone else I think in human history. But um,
Speaker 1: but I do think that they they they they missed
Speaker 1: opportunities to go deeper. And I I don't know if
Speaker 1: the last four will touch on it at all or not,
Speaker 1: or if that's just the end of it, that that's
Speaker 1: we did the gambling stuff. We can move on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it might be the end of it, you know, in
Speaker 1: along the lines of because you and I were talking
Speaker 1: about some stuff off air about how we're still fascinated
Speaker 1: by the the chasm between those that remember it, who
Speaker 1: are a certain agent, remember the Jordan years, and those
Speaker 1: who are young. And you know, I was mentioning earlier
Speaker 1: on this how on the show, how when I see
Speaker 1: quotes from Trey Young or all these young ballplayers, it's
Speaker 1: sort of like, I don't care what they say, Like
Speaker 1: they didn't live it, they live through those years. Um,
Speaker 1: But it really is this generational divide that we always
Speaker 1: here on sports talk radio, who's the best player of
Speaker 1: all time? And you were mentioning that story about Lebron,
Speaker 1: how like when Lebron came back from three one against
Speaker 1: the Warriors, he said, well, that's it, I'm the greatest
Speaker 1: of all time. And how Jordan's I think you you
Speaker 1: couched it. Well, how Jordan's may have had this footage
Speaker 1: as this sort of guard against if there was ever
Speaker 1: any question to my legacy at any point during my lifetime,
Speaker 1: I can always break this out. And maybe that you know,
Speaker 1: maybe that was part of the trigger of it. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Gail. I'll tell you from people that are
Speaker 1: that worked at MBA Entertainment and those that knew that
Speaker 1: that was always the story internally, that this footage was
Speaker 1: being held to when Jordan always knew if it really
Speaker 1: came down to a conversation about who's the greatest, then
Speaker 1: that's what's going to happen. He's going to release it.
Speaker 1: He always has this ten part documentary that's gonna just
Speaker 1: change change the game. I don't know if it was
Speaker 1: at the time they knew it was gonna be in
Speaker 1: ten parts or what, but that Jordan knew that he
Speaker 1: always had this library of footage that if there was
Speaker 1: ever a question. It's amazing too, because you know, we
Speaker 1: also grew up not just in Jordan's playing and and
Speaker 1: seeing him on NBC and all that, and everyone in
Speaker 1: the media treating him as this this this god like figure,
Speaker 1: but also there was all the all the other Jordan
Speaker 1: videos that would come out in books and shows and
Speaker 1: come fly with me, and we all had the DVDs
Speaker 1: and I mean, you know all that stuff. This was
Speaker 1: in the heyday of like you know, the VHS, tape
Speaker 1: and DVD where you could get your own personal Jordan collection,
Speaker 1: so you always put him on a pedestal anyway. But
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think it was ready to drop
Speaker 1: this whenever there was a question, And obviously over the
Speaker 1: last couple of years people have brought that up. And
Speaker 1: it's weird though. It's like father time doesn't just take
Speaker 1: a toll on athletes in terms of their performance, but
Speaker 1: it also changes your your legacy too, and and they're
Speaker 1: gonna be questions. And I thought, actually that was the
Speaker 1: fascinating part for me, was the game at Madison Square Garden,
Speaker 1: him wearing the old retro Jordan's and him talking about
Speaker 1: how his feet are bleeding. It also puts things into
Speaker 1: context because even throughout the course of his career, it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: the equipment got so much better that the stuff he
Speaker 1: was playing in when he was a rookie. It was
Speaker 1: like making his feet lead later years of his career.
Speaker 1: And it's remarkable how many guys have had how about
Speaker 1: the uh, how about the the insightful stuff that I
Speaker 1: found to be interesting, like when the Monty Carlo footage,
Speaker 1: which was there was some new Monty car Carlo footage
Speaker 1: that practice at the Olympics, and then when he's asked
Speaker 1: right in the lobby, Hey, who's gonna take the last shot,
Speaker 1: Jordan if it comes down to and he's like, that's
Speaker 1: a stupid question. Stupid question. You about the Monte Carlo footage.
Speaker 1: That was great because Jordan is screaming knows the nineties
Speaker 1: Now it's not the eighties anymore. To magic, you know,
Speaker 1: smack talking back and forth. There's some legendary footage of
Speaker 1: and this was not in the documentary, and I'm curious
Speaker 1: as to why it wasn't of the Dream Team playing
Speaker 1: college players at the time that included Chris Webber and
Speaker 1: Bobby Hurley and guys like that. Uh, you know, a decision,
Speaker 1: I guess not to put that in. Maybe I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe they didn't have access. Yeah, it's interesting, and I've
Speaker 1: interviewed p J Carlismo about that, who's an assistant on
Speaker 1: that team, and p J had talked about, you know that,
Speaker 1: the back and forth. I mean, there's always been the
Speaker 1: question as to whether coach k Uh through that game.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, not coach k Uh, whether Chuck
Speaker 1: Daily through that game, and that that was the question.
Speaker 1: Shoshovski was part of that staff, and people had wondered
Speaker 1: whether whether that was the case. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it was guys like Rodney Rogers played in that game,
Speaker 1: Penny Hardaway, um, but yeah, they couldn't stay in front
Speaker 1: of early and the Dream Team documentary on NBA TV
Speaker 1: went over a lot of that stuff about whether there
Speaker 1: were questions. But yeah, it's it's it's uh, it's it's
Speaker 1: amazing that they didn't include that. Also, if you're gonna
Speaker 1: put the full scope of what happened at the Olympics,
Speaker 1: that was the story. The only team ever to beat
Speaker 1: the Dream Team, it was in a scrimmage and it
Speaker 1: was an amazing group of college players at that time. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad there were no you know, there was
Speaker 1: no half truths or misleading stuff like the fourteen minute
Speaker 1: limit or the you know, Michael supposedly going to Vegas
Speaker 1: which never happened. Um, the one you know besides like
Speaker 1: random thoughts. They had random thoughts. One was like Jordan's
Speaker 1: eyes bothered me. Maybe should get his liver checked, Like
Speaker 1: that's one thing, but I think like, yeah, I hear you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's there's like a yellow Yeah, like you better get
Speaker 1: that checked out or just little details like it wasn't
Speaker 1: wasn't Facebook the Facebook company the first two episodes, and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, it's back to Facebook again,
Speaker 1: the sponsor of the show. But have you ever heard
Speaker 1: the le Bradford Smith story? Are you familiar with this story?
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've heard the story, but I I don't
Speaker 1: know if I remember that that was the player. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is Oh did they tease it? I think, well, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, teas that Scott Van Pelts that after in
Speaker 1: and then like a post show wrap up, he didn't
Speaker 1: say the story. He said just wait till they get
Speaker 1: to le Bradford space. It figures he would know because
Speaker 1: he's a d C guy. So it's you know, and
Speaker 1: this falls under the category of stuff I'd like to have,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd liked for them to have acknowledged for
Speaker 1: at least twenty seconds, like my, uh my thing from
Speaker 1: the first game of his career where Jeff ruland you know,
Speaker 1: he got up ended by Jeff Rulin. His career could
Speaker 1: have been over his very first game. So this is
Speaker 1: his So this is the Bulls third championship season, so
Speaker 1: this is late in the three season. This is March
Speaker 1: of ninety three, the Bulls are going for the three pete,
Speaker 1: which was covered I guess in this last episode that season,
Speaker 1: so we're probably not going to get the leb Bradford
Speaker 1: Smith's story. But um, this is March of ninety three.
Speaker 1: The Bulls are kind of cruising into the postseason and
Speaker 1: the Bullets just suck like they always did. And they
Speaker 1: had drafted le Bradford Smith a couple of years earlier
Speaker 1: in the first round out of Louisville, and le Bradford
Speaker 1: Smith was just a marginal player. But they had the
Speaker 1: Bulls and the Bullets home and home back to back
Speaker 1: in Chicago and d C in March. And this is
Speaker 1: I actually looked up the box scores just to verify
Speaker 1: all the all the details the story. So March nineteen
Speaker 1: the first game in Chicago, March the secondame, so you
Speaker 1: can look up the box scores and Basketball reference. So
Speaker 1: in March nineteen the Bulls, It's games in Chicago. The
Speaker 1: Bulls end up winning the game by five points. But
Speaker 1: le Bradford Smith of the Bullets goes off and he's
Speaker 1: he scores thirty seven points on fifteen of twenty shooting,
Speaker 1: and he was seven for seven from the line, and
Speaker 1: like the first thing I was like, did le Bradford Smith,
Speaker 1: Like this had to be Lebradford Smith's career high. So
Speaker 1: I went into his game log and sure enough, like
Speaker 1: the next most points le Bradford Smith ever scored in
Speaker 1: a basketball game in the NBA at the NBA level
Speaker 1: was twenty two. Like this was just some out yeah,
Speaker 1: complete outlier. I used to get basketball die just when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, and there was always a there
Speaker 1: was always a page the game I'll never forget. And
Speaker 1: I imagine that le Bradford Smith this would have been his.
Speaker 1: So he scores thirty seven, and this is the first
Speaker 1: night of a back to back against the Bulls, and Uh,
Speaker 1: on the way the way off the court, le Bradford
Speaker 1: Smith says, it's up to Jordan, goes ay, good game, Mike.
Speaker 1: This the worst possible thing he could have said. So Mike,
Speaker 1: and you could just imagine Mike that glare that he
Speaker 1: was probably like, oh yeah. So the next night, Uh,
Speaker 1: the next night, Jordan's scores thirty in the first half.
Speaker 1: I ends up with like forty seven. But anyway, I
Speaker 1: would have loved for them to have, you know, spent
Speaker 1: thirty seconds on stuff like that, where it's just like,
Speaker 1: these are the stories that need to be told, like
Speaker 1: he had such and that's the that's the beauty of
Speaker 1: this document series more than anything to me, is showing
Speaker 1: all the little things. Obviously is Hall of Fame speech.
Speaker 1: You know, spelled this out beautifully and maybe some would
Speaker 1: say even sort of without much class and that sort
Speaker 1: of venue. But um, the things that that he drew
Speaker 1: upon for motivation, you know, like he was just he
Speaker 1: had done everything already. It's like, how can I motivate myself? Oh,
Speaker 1: Barkley Gott m v P. I'm gonna crush him. Oh,
Speaker 1: Clyde Drexler was planning. Oh watch this, le Bradford said,
Speaker 1: good game to me. You know, all the stories are phenomenal.
Speaker 1: That's the stuff that that's the stuff that made Jordan's
Speaker 1: and his lore so incredible and and those of us
Speaker 1: watching that's why I think when we grew up watching
Speaker 1: Jordan and all he accomplished, I think that's to my
Speaker 1: question to the to the lebron over Jordan, Folks is
Speaker 1: always going to be, uh, what more could Jordan have done?
Speaker 1: There's there's nothing more in his era you you want
Speaker 1: to say that the competition wasn't the same, which I
Speaker 1: would disagree with a lot of that, but you know,
Speaker 1: the league was older back then. It's got a lot
Speaker 1: younger now and all those things. I just think that
Speaker 1: you look at what Jordan accomplished throughout his career, and
Speaker 1: every time he set out to accomplish something or defeat someone,
Speaker 1: he did it. And he had to literally set up
Speaker 1: challenges to himself. And now we we sort of go
Speaker 1: back and it's again him leaving the game. I almost
Speaker 1: think that was part of it that it Like for me,
Speaker 1: that's always been my theory on Jordan is that he
Speaker 1: was I don't want to say bored because that that's
Speaker 1: almost too strong. But he what more could he have done?
Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, in fact, yeah, in fact, let
Speaker 1: me ask you this interrupt, If he doesn't go away
Speaker 1: for those two seasons, maybe it doesn't play out this way.
Speaker 1: Like I almost think he needed that time off to
Speaker 1: mentally recharge. Yeah, because he he looked for those types
Speaker 1: of challenges. I mean Don McClain, who some people might
Speaker 1: remember being u c l A's all time leading scorer
Speaker 1: and he was the most improved player in the NBA.
Speaker 1: Don has told told me the Great Jordan's story about
Speaker 1: how he played in a pickup game with with Jordan
Speaker 1: and he like had a pretty good game. And so
Speaker 1: Jordan was like consistent that Don come back, like the
Speaker 1: following week, was like, you have to come back. And meanwhile,
Speaker 1: it's a pickup game over the summer, Like Lau comes
Speaker 1: back the next week, and like Jordan won't let Don
Speaker 1: touch the ball, like he just won't let him have it.
Speaker 1: And Don is as we've been going back and forth
Speaker 1: watching the last Dance, Don has been saying, like people
Speaker 1: can now start to realize. And Don's the pre eminent
Speaker 1: workout guy for all the NBA draft guys now. So
Speaker 1: he had Donovan, Mitchell, Carl Anthony Towns, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: you name it. He's had that the elite players in
Speaker 1: the draft the last few years. And so there's nobody
Speaker 1: more familiar than like what nineties basketball was like in
Speaker 1: a bubble like and then meanwhile, like what it's like now.
Speaker 1: And Adam he was on that Bullets team with le
Speaker 1: Bradford Smith by the way, there you go, yeah, yes exactly, yes,
Speaker 1: that Rex Chapman and and and he and that's the
Speaker 1: thing that Don and Don talks about it though, just
Speaker 1: about the level of toughness and they go, he says
Speaker 1: all the time. But you don't understand is if Jordan's
Speaker 1: wanted to have something like that was it? And b
Speaker 1: j Armstrong alluded to that he sort of referenced did
Speaker 1: when he gave his interview during Last Dance last night.
Speaker 1: Was the same thing that that Jordan was kind of
Speaker 1: playing a different game than everyone else. And and I've
Speaker 1: always found that to be fascinating. I thought that that
Speaker 1: was a great quote. What did bj was like, he
Speaker 1: just he knew how to win, he figured out how
Speaker 1: to win. And once he figured out, yeah, that was
Speaker 1: it was incredible. And I'll tell you an interesting thing
Speaker 1: and something that that uh is a nugget just for
Speaker 1: this podcast. But so when I worked at the ESPN
Speaker 1: with the with the NBA folks, I remember them coming
Speaker 1: out of meetings at one point and a bunch of
Speaker 1: the guys that worked on the NBA side started telling me,
Speaker 1: you will not believe what Scotty Pippen has been saying
Speaker 1: in meetings. Scotty's been saying that he was better than
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's and Pippen's never gonna say that on this documentary.
Speaker 1: And by the way, there has there been another guy
Speaker 1: in NBA history that's been forget it just during the
Speaker 1: time getting the chance to play alongside Jordan and what
Speaker 1: that did for his legacy and getting him on the
Speaker 1: fifty Greatest. But also now, how about post career, the
Speaker 1: fact that Scottie Pippen, his career has been treated. I mean,
Speaker 1: in the documentary, we just we're gonna let slide the
Speaker 1: j Donde at one point says, oh, yes, Scotty was
Speaker 1: the number two player, all the best number two guy
Speaker 1: of all time history, like Kobe played with shock, like
Speaker 1: Kareem and Oscar play to what are we talking about
Speaker 1: that Scotti Pippens the best number two of all time?
Speaker 1: Gets unbelievable, But um yeah, it's it's remarkable. Jordan's given
Speaker 1: a lot of people jobs, and he's given a lot
Speaker 1: of people legacies and stories like le Bradford Smith to
Speaker 1: tell their their grandad man. Well, we'll enjoy uh segments,
Speaker 1: so or episode seven through ten, I suppose, but I
Speaker 1: uh I a pre j you hanging out again because
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your thoughts. I know you uh
Speaker 1: you had some special insights and stories as well. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just it's fascinating. Here's the thing again, I'll just
Speaker 1: say it in conclusion. I don't want all the you know,
Speaker 1: the the little omissions that I've cited, or the or
Speaker 1: the criticism all along. It's not really criticisms. I've enjoyed it. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's probably I mean, look, this thing has gotten so
Speaker 1: much hype during a pandemic that it wouldn't have otherwise,
Speaker 1: probably if we were just in normal sports, uh, schedule wise.
Speaker 1: So there's a little of that at play too, but
Speaker 1: it's still super enjoyable. And what a task. What uh
Speaker 1: you know this is whenever when else in life will
Speaker 1: we ever have this situation of anything where there's some
Speaker 1: secret footage somewhere that finally gets released, you know, decades
Speaker 1: after the fact. It's fascinating. Man. The Michael Jordan's a
Speaker 1: Brewer film, it's amazing that that's right. And and and
Speaker 1: the Michael Jordan's a Brewer film is him with Scottie
Speaker 1: Barrell on a plane talking about else an alcoholic it's
Speaker 1: gotten Vrell doesn't want his parents to fund it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's Oh, that's the one thing you and I said about. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I will conclude with this the the womanizing right, like
Speaker 1: because Jordan has final editorial say like Jordan, I mean
Speaker 1: after his career, we all heard lots of stories about
Speaker 1: Jordan's and uh, Jordan will take your girl kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: We're not getting any of that in episode seven to ten.
Speaker 1: I doubt no, No, that's not coming. That's that's not coming. Adam,
Speaker 1: appreciate it, man. Rejecting the screen is the name of
Speaker 1: the podcast you do with Noa. Koslov. Your latest guest
Speaker 1: is we got Vin Baker coming up on Thursday. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he's he was actually interested. We talked some. Vin
Speaker 1: Baker was a star during the late nineties when when
Speaker 1: Jordan was there, his career obviously took a turn, but
Speaker 1: then had a bunch of interesting things to say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a very fascinating interview Thursday, Vin Baker. Alright, cool.
Speaker 1: Appreciate it man. We'll we'll check that out and uh
Speaker 1: we'll get you back on the numbers game probably next
Speaker 1: week talk seven and eight, nine and ten. After that
Speaker 1: sounds good bye, man, Adam Stako want to be in
Speaker 1: the book podcast The exclusive laps of this pot