1
00:00:15,376 --> 00:00:15,816
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:18,956 --> 00:00:22,026
Speaker 2: Hey there, it's Michael Lewis here talking about my new book, Blockers.

3
00:00:22,906 --> 00:00:26,066
Speaker 2: Very briefly, it's about the collision between the Trump administration

4
00:00:26,106 --> 00:00:28,626
Speaker 2: and the civil service. And it's about the people who

5
00:00:28,646 --> 00:00:32,526
Speaker 2: got in the way on matters of principle with what

6
00:00:32,546 --> 00:00:36,616
Speaker 2: the Trump administration was trying to do. It's about mission-driven people,

7
00:00:37,136 --> 00:00:39,976
Speaker 2: people who are finding a life or found a life

8
00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:44,066
Speaker 2: for themselves that's much more than just about themselves. and

9
00:00:44,086 --> 00:00:46,386
Speaker 2: who I think in many ways are the best among us.

10
00:00:47,746 --> 00:00:50,166
Speaker 2: And it sort of asks the question, if these people

11
00:00:50,226 --> 00:00:52,586
Speaker 2: no longer belong in our government, what does it.

12
00:00:52,586 --> 00:00:53,246
Speaker 3: Say about us?

13
00:00:54,066 --> 00:00:56,266
Speaker 2: So stay tuned until the end of this episode for

14
00:00:56,286 --> 00:01:06,606
Speaker 2: a preview. Welcome to Season 2 of Against the Rules.

15
00:01:07,316 --> 00:01:11,106
Speaker 2: I'm Michael Lewis. Before we get to where we're going,

16
00:01:11,456 --> 00:01:13,076
Speaker 2: I want to go back for a moment to where

17
00:01:13,116 --> 00:01:18,956
Speaker 2: we've been. A little backstory from Season 1. The story

18
00:01:18,996 --> 00:01:22,476
Speaker 2: involves a woman named Katie Hyland. She's in her late 30s,

19
00:01:22,956 --> 00:01:26,076
Speaker 2: a public school teacher, wife, mother of two small children.

20
00:01:26,696 --> 00:01:29,776
Speaker 2: Her entire adult life, she'd been made miserable by student

21
00:01:29,836 --> 00:01:32,196
Speaker 2: loans she'd taken out when she was 18 years old.

22
00:01:32,616 --> 00:01:35,076
Speaker 4: I don't see any pay off, and it just keeps

23
00:01:35,096 --> 00:01:38,296
Speaker 4: getting harder and harder, and that's soul-crushing.

24
00:01:38,816 --> 00:01:42,956
Speaker 2: Her state of mind. Well, even her children could see

25
00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:43,556
Speaker 2: it wasn't good.

26
00:01:44,566 --> 00:01:48,706
Speaker 5: It might be actually kind of painful for her because

27
00:01:48,966 --> 00:01:54,096
Speaker 5: all of this counts with a bill and getting something

28
00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:59,536
Speaker 5: changed to another thing that's the same but changing to it.

29
00:01:59,856 --> 00:02:00,296
Speaker 1: I love you.

30
00:02:00,316 --> 00:02:06,336
Speaker 5: Well, it does feel painful. Kind of painful, right, Mommy?

31
00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:10,556
Speaker 4: A lot of the papers, yeah, it's a lot of paperwork.

32
00:02:10,656 --> 00:02:14,596
Speaker 6: And a lot of pain for doing it.

33
00:02:15,776 --> 00:02:18,796
Speaker 2: This killed me to hear, but especially this next part.

34
00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:25,796
Speaker 6: Well, it is very good to be thoughtful for everybody,

35
00:02:26,336 --> 00:02:32,376
Speaker 6: but the person who's the most best person on earth is.

36
00:02:36,706 --> 00:02:41,126
Speaker 2: This lady, Jackson's mom, Katie Hyland, shouldn't have owed anybody

37
00:02:41,306 --> 00:02:44,626
Speaker 2: a dime. That was the point of the story. Katie

38
00:02:44,646 --> 00:02:48,266
Speaker 2: had qualified years ago for a program that Congress created

39
00:02:48,726 --> 00:02:51,786
Speaker 2: to forgive the student loans of public servants. But her

40
00:02:51,826 --> 00:02:54,366
Speaker 2: student loan servicer made money off her only as long

41
00:02:54,386 --> 00:02:56,666
Speaker 2: as she still owed the money. And they had more

42
00:02:56,686 --> 00:02:58,646
Speaker 2: or less tricked her to keep her in debt.

43
00:02:58,986 --> 00:03:00,846
Speaker 4: I like to try to always find the good in

44
00:03:00,886 --> 00:03:04,866
Speaker 4: people and When you have experiences like my experience, you

45
00:03:04,906 --> 00:03:07,856
Speaker 4: get discouraged and you start to think that people aren't

46
00:03:07,916 --> 00:03:09,636
Speaker 4: as good as you once thought they were.

47
00:03:15,896 --> 00:03:18,456
Speaker 2: Sometimes you stumble onto a story and you can't get

48
00:03:18,496 --> 00:03:21,206
Speaker 2: it out of your head. Katie Hyland had played by

49
00:03:21,266 --> 00:03:24,986
Speaker 2: the rules, made all her loan payments, thrown herself into

50
00:03:25,026 --> 00:03:27,326
Speaker 2: being a good mother and a great teacher, and she'd

51
00:03:27,346 --> 00:03:29,586
Speaker 2: been abused by the company that was meant to help

52
00:03:29,626 --> 00:03:36,146
Speaker 2: her navigate her finances. And the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau,

53
00:03:36,646 --> 00:03:38,846
Speaker 2: the one financial referee that might have stepped in to

54
00:03:38,886 --> 00:03:42,526
Speaker 2: help her, was doing nothing to help. So we decided

55
00:03:42,566 --> 00:03:46,326
Speaker 2: to help. On the website GoFundMe. To try to pay

56
00:03:46,406 --> 00:03:47,906
Speaker 2: off Katie's student loans.

57
00:03:51,706 --> 00:03:53,326
Speaker 4: When I looked at the page and I think I

58
00:03:53,386 --> 00:03:55,326
Speaker 4: saw at that time that it was like $ 11, 000, I

59
00:03:55,386 --> 00:03:59,446
Speaker 4: was shocked. Completely blown away. I was at my son's

60
00:03:59,486 --> 00:04:02,526
Speaker 4: baseball game. I remember I showed my mom. We were

61
00:04:02,566 --> 00:04:07,556
Speaker 4: like freaking out about it. And just reading people's responses

62
00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:13,036
Speaker 4: and the encouraging words and like where people were from.

63
00:04:13,056 --> 00:04:16,156
Speaker 4: There were people from Ireland. There were people from England.

64
00:04:16,616 --> 00:04:20,026
Speaker 2: We started this campaign two months after the show originally aired.

65
00:04:20,726 --> 00:04:23,296
Speaker 2: So after most people had listened to it. Even then,

66
00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:26,186
Speaker 2: it took you, our listeners, less than three months to

67
00:04:26,226 --> 00:04:32,406
Speaker 2: pay off $ 50, 000.

68
00:04:28,566 --> 00:04:32,046
Speaker 4: And I think the last person that donated, donated like

69
00:04:32,226 --> 00:04:34,046
Speaker 4: enough to just to like hit it. And it was

70
00:04:34,066 --> 00:04:36,066
Speaker 4: just so I was like, oh, my God, mom, we

71
00:04:36,126 --> 00:04:37,466
Speaker 4: like it happened.

72
00:04:37,866 --> 00:04:38,396
Speaker 3: We did it.

73
00:04:38,866 --> 00:04:40,406
Speaker 4: And I can't even tell you because you said to

74
00:04:40,446 --> 00:04:42,446
Speaker 4: me in one email, like, just pay it forward or

75
00:04:42,526 --> 00:04:45,116
Speaker 4: just do it for someone else. And every GoFundMe campaign

76
00:04:45,126 --> 00:04:47,196
Speaker 4: that I see, I make it a point to do

77
00:04:47,236 --> 00:04:50,616
Speaker 4: the same, even if it's 10, 20, whatever I can do.

78
00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:57,616
Speaker 2: Now, don't you dare go get into debt again. I

79
00:04:57,636 --> 00:04:59,686
Speaker 2: thought that would be the end of the story. But

80
00:04:59,706 --> 00:05:02,686
Speaker 2: there was a lot more to it. Of course there

81
00:05:02,726 --> 00:05:04,986
Speaker 2: was more to it. I mean, Katie had told us

82
00:05:05,006 --> 00:05:07,286
Speaker 2: that financial stress had caused her to grind her teeth

83
00:05:07,346 --> 00:05:10,076
Speaker 2: at night, and she'd started losing her teeth. She used

84
00:05:10,116 --> 00:05:13,896
Speaker 2: to smile all the time. Now she avoided smiling. And

85
00:05:13,936 --> 00:05:16,376
Speaker 2: along the way, she'd picked up another debt problem.

86
00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:19,576
Speaker 4: Already I'm on a payment plan with a dentist. It's

87
00:05:19,616 --> 00:05:20,966
Speaker 4: like $ 500 a week. I've spent like $ 30, 000. I've lost

88
00:05:20,986 --> 00:05:26,466
Speaker 4: a bunch of teeth. through the grinding and all of that.

89
00:05:26,766 --> 00:05:29,426
Speaker 4: That part has been really difficult. So I still have

90
00:05:29,466 --> 00:05:31,806
Speaker 4: a lot, you know, remaining with that. It's still a

91
00:05:31,846 --> 00:05:33,566
Speaker 4: lot to pay off, still a lot of dental work

92
00:05:33,586 --> 00:05:34,236
Speaker 4: to get done.

93
00:05:34,676 --> 00:05:36,236
Speaker 2: So you do have credit card debt?

94
00:05:36,536 --> 00:05:38,696
Speaker 4: I have, yeah, I have credit card debt. Any big

95
00:05:38,736 --> 00:05:41,936
Speaker 4: purchases that I've had to make, I've put on credit cards.

96
00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:45,016
Speaker 2: Unless you're a very lucky kind of American, you may

97
00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:48,746
Speaker 2: recognize yourself here. You try to do prudent things to

98
00:05:48,786 --> 00:05:52,386
Speaker 2: save money, like drop the vision coverage on your health insurance.

99
00:05:53,426 --> 00:05:57,356
Speaker 2: Then suddenly, Your daughter needs glasses. That was the kind

100
00:05:57,396 --> 00:05:59,396
Speaker 2: of thing that Katie and her husband did that wound

101
00:05:59,456 --> 00:06:03,036
Speaker 2: up biting them. They now have five credit cards between them,

102
00:06:03,416 --> 00:06:06,436
Speaker 2: all charging high interest rates, even though their credit score

103
00:06:06,486 --> 00:06:06,866
Speaker 2: is great.

104
00:06:08,126 --> 00:06:10,286
Speaker 4: Personally, I just want to not be scared to look

105
00:06:10,326 --> 00:06:12,266
Speaker 4: at my bank account. I don't think I've looked at

106
00:06:12,286 --> 00:06:16,266
Speaker 4: my bank account in years, to be honest. I just, yeah,

107
00:06:16,486 --> 00:06:20,116
Speaker 4: that's not a good, I know that's not healthy, but

108
00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:22,916
Speaker 4: I don't know why. It just terrifies me. I'm not

109
00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:23,316
Speaker 4: sure why.

110
00:06:25,026 --> 00:06:27,566
Speaker 2: The credit card industry already had her by the throat.

111
00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:30,956
Speaker 2: She was ashamed of it. And she had no sense

112
00:06:31,016 --> 00:06:37,616
Speaker 2: that anyone would help this time. Well, so here's my goal.

113
00:06:37,656 --> 00:06:39,476
Speaker 2: My goal, season one, the goal was to get rid

114
00:06:39,496 --> 00:06:41,676
Speaker 2: of your student debt. And season two is to restore

115
00:06:41,716 --> 00:06:45,056
Speaker 2: your smile. So that's what we're going to try to do.

116
00:06:45,376 --> 00:06:45,756
Speaker 3: All right?

117
00:06:46,056 --> 00:06:46,356
Speaker 4: Okay.

118
00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:54,266
Speaker 2: Thanks, Michael. I'm Michael Lewis, and this is Against the Rules.

119
00:06:56,096 --> 00:06:59,916
Speaker 2: Last season was about referees. The attack on our society's

120
00:06:59,976 --> 00:07:04,576
Speaker 2: refs is obviously a big problem. This season is about coaches.

121
00:07:05,176 --> 00:07:06,466
Speaker 7: Yeah, what are you doing?

122
00:07:07,086 --> 00:07:10,086
Speaker 2: And their rise in American life. You need to stop

123
00:07:10,106 --> 00:07:12,166
Speaker 2: being a lazy piece of shit and work for your

124
00:07:12,186 --> 00:07:13,626
Speaker 2: pitcher or I'm going to kick your ass.

125
00:07:14,106 --> 00:07:14,436
Speaker 7: Got it?

126
00:07:14,986 --> 00:07:18,146
Speaker 2: It wasn't that long ago that coaches were confined to sports.

127
00:07:18,946 --> 00:07:19,706
Speaker 2: Now they're everywhere.

128
00:07:19,726 --> 00:07:21,666
Speaker 1: We're going to refocus like we're training a puppy.

129
00:07:22,586 --> 00:07:24,846
Speaker 8: We're going to train your mind like we train a puppy.

130
00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:27,436
Speaker 2: There are people who call themselves life coaches and other

131
00:07:27,456 --> 00:07:29,156
Speaker 2: people who call themselves death coaches.

132
00:07:29,496 --> 00:07:32,376
Speaker 1: I am here to guide you in making sure you

133
00:07:32,536 --> 00:07:33,556
Speaker 1: grow as a person.

134
00:07:34,176 --> 00:07:37,656
Speaker 2: Every big-time corporate boss has an executive coach, but now

135
00:07:37,736 --> 00:07:40,186
Speaker 2: so do new MBAs starting out at Wall Street banks

136
00:07:40,246 --> 00:07:43,986
Speaker 2: and consulting firms. These are super smart people who maybe

137
00:07:44,086 --> 00:07:47,266
Speaker 2: just haven't heard the right strategies. You can hire a

138
00:07:47,306 --> 00:07:51,426
Speaker 2: coach to improve your online dating performance or your charisma.

139
00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:54,036
Speaker 8: There's a saying which is, therapy is a path of

140
00:07:54,096 --> 00:07:56,536
Speaker 8: tears and coaching is a path of laughter.

141
00:07:57,076 --> 00:07:59,996
Speaker 2: And that's all great, but coaching is also becoming an

142
00:08:00,176 --> 00:08:03,696
Speaker 2: odd source of unfairness. Just look around and ask yourself,

143
00:08:04,256 --> 00:08:05,756
Speaker 2: who gets good coaching and who doesn't?

144
00:08:06,016 --> 00:08:08,136
Speaker 9: That guy would never have gotten to Yale, but this

145
00:08:08,276 --> 00:08:10,656
Speaker 9: guy who got all this coaching did get into Yale.

146
00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:12,976
Speaker 4: It just seems like anyone who can answer these questions

147
00:08:13,016 --> 00:08:13,966
Speaker 4: has got to be coached.

148
00:08:15,106 --> 00:08:17,446
Speaker 7: Oh my God, we're losing this fucking team.

149
00:08:30,826 --> 00:08:33,136
Speaker 2: Money is a great place to ask this question about

150
00:08:33,236 --> 00:08:36,496
Speaker 2: coaching and fairness. But first you have to stop thinking

151
00:08:36,536 --> 00:08:39,496
Speaker 2: of finance as a business and start thinking of it

152
00:08:39,716 --> 00:08:43,536
Speaker 2: as a competitive sport. When 18-year-old Katie Hyland took out

153
00:08:43,556 --> 00:08:48,096
Speaker 2: her student loans and 20-something-year-old Katie started using credit cards,

154
00:08:48,436 --> 00:08:51,176
Speaker 2: she was basically walking into an arena alone with a

155
00:08:51,216 --> 00:08:54,596
Speaker 2: target on her back. The giant company she'd be facing

156
00:08:54,676 --> 00:08:56,776
Speaker 2: off against knew more about her game than she did.

157
00:08:57,416 --> 00:08:59,916
Speaker 2: That's how they made their money, from her weaknesses.

158
00:09:00,356 --> 00:09:08,056
Speaker 10: You can always make more money exploiting people's irrationalities than

159
00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:10,536
Speaker 10: you can by fixing them.

160
00:09:11,226 --> 00:09:14,486
Speaker 2: Richard Thaler, winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. He

161
00:09:14,526 --> 00:09:17,166
Speaker 2: spent his career trying to understand the ways that people

162
00:09:17,206 --> 00:09:20,496
Speaker 2: don't act in their own self-interest. And one big thing

163
00:09:20,536 --> 00:09:24,756
Speaker 2: his work suggests is that ordinary people need coaching far

164
00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:25,616
Speaker 2: more than they know.

165
00:09:25,896 --> 00:09:30,876
Speaker 10: Let's think about the people who get the most coaching. Well,

166
00:09:31,276 --> 00:09:36,136
Speaker 10: professional athletes would be one. Take Roger Federer. He's probably

167
00:09:36,176 --> 00:09:44,136
Speaker 10: got 10 guys, coaches and physical trainers. So here's Roger Federer,

168
00:09:44,296 --> 00:09:47,086
Speaker 10: one of the greatest athletes in the world, and he

169
00:09:47,126 --> 00:09:47,986
Speaker 10: has 10 coaches.

170
00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:49,736
Speaker 3: Who else?

171
00:09:50,336 --> 00:09:50,736
Speaker 11: Actors.

172
00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:56,806
Speaker 10: Meryl Streep has a director helping her act.

173
00:09:57,366 --> 00:09:58,306
Speaker 3: Now, God knows.

174
00:09:58,366 --> 00:09:59,026
Speaker 2: And a voice coach.

175
00:09:59,286 --> 00:09:59,566
Speaker 1: Yeah.

176
00:09:59,666 --> 00:10:01,146
Speaker 3: She doesn't need it, right?

177
00:10:01,226 --> 00:10:05,366
Speaker 10: Brad Pitt, you know, does he really need help? But

178
00:10:05,466 --> 00:10:10,106
Speaker 10: the richest, best performing people in the world. have the

179
00:10:10,146 --> 00:10:17,046
Speaker 10: most coaching. And who's coaching the Uber driver on what

180
00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:22,196
Speaker 10: hours to drive and when you should go to the airport?

181
00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:25,376
Speaker 10: And if you get a ride to the airport, should

182
00:10:25,396 --> 00:10:28,836
Speaker 10: you wait in line or immediately leave?

183
00:10:29,706 --> 00:10:32,306
Speaker 2: So- Coaching just ends up making the rich richer.

184
00:10:32,526 --> 00:10:32,746
Speaker 12: Yeah.

185
00:10:32,906 --> 00:10:37,286
Speaker 10: It's one of the many factors that contribute to this

186
00:10:37,486 --> 00:10:44,806
Speaker 10: curve we've all seen about the 1% or the 0.01%

187
00:10:44,806 --> 00:10:47,046
Speaker 10: share of the economy.

188
00:10:48,006 --> 00:10:51,026
Speaker 2: No one's coaching the tens of millions of Americans on

189
00:10:51,066 --> 00:10:54,746
Speaker 2: the wrong end of consumer finance. No one even seems interested.

190
00:10:55,106 --> 00:11:00,116
Speaker 10: I've tried unsuccessfully- To get somebody to create what I

191
00:11:00,156 --> 00:11:01,156
Speaker 10: call the good bank.

192
00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:05,916
Speaker 2: What would this good bank look like?

193
00:11:06,016 --> 00:11:11,306
Speaker 10: Well, so it would warn you when you're about to

194
00:11:12,446 --> 00:11:17,786
Speaker 10: overdraw your credit card rather than wait until the end

195
00:11:17,826 --> 00:11:20,906
Speaker 10: of the day when you've swiped five times and they

196
00:11:20,946 --> 00:11:22,976
Speaker 10: charge you $ 25 penalty for each swipe.

197
00:11:22,976 --> 00:11:23,196
Speaker 11: $ 25 a swipe.

198
00:11:26,636 --> 00:11:29,756
Speaker 2: It's supposed to scare you from overdrawing your account, but

199
00:11:29,796 --> 00:11:33,456
Speaker 2: you only get the warning after it's too late. I mean,

200
00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:35,576
Speaker 2: there's a reason for this. It's a subtle form of

201
00:11:35,656 --> 00:11:38,416
Speaker 2: coaching that makes the banks a lot of money. No,

202
00:11:38,456 --> 00:11:41,216
Speaker 2: the problem is people pay bad coaches and not good coaches.

203
00:11:41,576 --> 00:11:41,736
Speaker 7: Right.

204
00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:42,596
Speaker 11: Right.

205
00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:43,296
Speaker 7: It's an odd thing.

206
00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:44,916
Speaker 3: And they pay.

207
00:11:45,376 --> 00:11:46,476
Speaker 2: Because they don't see the charge.

208
00:11:46,616 --> 00:11:46,876
Speaker 5: Right.

209
00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:49,516
Speaker 2: The trick to bad coaching is never show the bill.

210
00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:50,736
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

211
00:11:50,776 --> 00:11:52,276
Speaker 2: And the problem with good coaching is you have to

212
00:11:52,296 --> 00:11:52,676
Speaker 2: show the bill.

213
00:11:53,016 --> 00:11:55,516
Speaker 8: It basically goes something like this, right? So at the

214
00:11:55,536 --> 00:11:57,576
Speaker 8: start of the month, you're paid your paycheck.

215
00:11:57,876 --> 00:12:02,016
Speaker 2: This is Angela Strange, venture capitalist and connoisseur of how

216
00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:04,136
Speaker 2: the financial sector exploits human nature.

217
00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:06,816
Speaker 8: And so you send your rent check out. And you

218
00:12:06,856 --> 00:12:09,256
Speaker 8: don't see in your bank account that that check is cleared,

219
00:12:09,356 --> 00:12:11,376
Speaker 8: probably for a few days. You pay a bunch of

220
00:12:11,416 --> 00:12:14,316
Speaker 8: other bills. You know that those are going to hit

221
00:12:14,656 --> 00:12:16,996
Speaker 8: as costs in your bank account, but that also hasn't cleared.

222
00:12:17,496 --> 00:12:20,076
Speaker 8: Now you're like, well, can I pay this bill? I

223
00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:24,526
Speaker 8: think so, but you're doing some mental math around the

224
00:12:24,546 --> 00:12:27,026
Speaker 8: checks that you have in the air. You just don't

225
00:12:27,146 --> 00:12:30,846
Speaker 8: have a sense of what is your real-time cash position.

226
00:12:31,686 --> 00:12:33,606
Speaker 8: And then, oh, by the way, if you screw it up,

227
00:12:34,166 --> 00:12:36,306
Speaker 8: it's a $ 35 overdraft fee each time.

228
00:12:36,606 --> 00:12:36,866
Speaker 12: Right.

229
00:12:36,906 --> 00:12:40,986
Speaker 8: There were $ 34 billion in overdraft fees paid last year. Again,

230
00:12:41,006 --> 00:12:42,526
Speaker 8: profiting from people screwing up.

231
00:12:42,606 --> 00:12:43,366
Speaker 1: It's huge.

232
00:12:43,586 --> 00:12:44,046
Speaker 5: It's huge.

233
00:12:44,066 --> 00:12:44,426
Speaker 7: It's huge.

234
00:12:44,566 --> 00:12:47,546
Speaker 2: Wait, wait. $ 34 billion in overdraft fees?

235
00:12:47,936 --> 00:12:48,156
Speaker 4: Yep.

236
00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:51,916
Speaker 2: Is the typical penalty $ 35? Yeah, it's gone up.

237
00:12:51,996 --> 00:12:54,456
Speaker 8: It used to be $ 25 about 10 years ago.

238
00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:57,576
Speaker 2: So that means that there are a billion instances of.

239
00:12:57,576 --> 00:12:58,076
Speaker 7: This a year.

240
00:12:58,546 --> 00:13:01,336
Speaker 8: Yes, and they tend to be concentrated where the people

241
00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,736
Speaker 8: that get hit with overdraft get hit a lot.

242
00:13:04,736 --> 00:13:08,276
Speaker 2: $ 34 billion in overdraft fees is really just the start.

243
00:13:08,776 --> 00:13:11,516
Speaker 2: There's more than $ 100 billion in credit card late payment

244
00:13:11,556 --> 00:13:14,536
Speaker 2: fees and interest charged each year. And then there's the

245
00:13:14,606 --> 00:13:18,186
Speaker 2: entire credit card industry, which thrives on the mistakes people

246
00:13:18,226 --> 00:13:19,706
Speaker 2: make playing the money game.

247
00:13:20,206 --> 00:13:24,206
Speaker 8: There is now over $ 1 trillion of credit card debt

248
00:13:24,366 --> 00:13:29,416
Speaker 8: in the U.S., People who have this debt, it's about $ 15, 000.

249
00:13:28,416 --> 00:13:30,796
Speaker 8: They tend to have it across three to four different cards.

250
00:13:31,176 --> 00:13:32,946
Speaker 8: So let's say you're like, okay, I don't want to

251
00:13:32,966 --> 00:13:34,326
Speaker 8: be in credit card debt. I need to get out

252
00:13:34,396 --> 00:13:37,766
Speaker 8: of credit card debt. Just going through what is that process?

253
00:13:37,986 --> 00:13:41,406
Speaker 8: You have debt across three to four different cards. They

254
00:13:41,526 --> 00:13:44,966
Speaker 8: likely charge different rates. They have different due dates. So

255
00:13:45,026 --> 00:13:47,866
Speaker 8: do you pay off the highest rate card first? Oh,

256
00:13:47,886 --> 00:13:49,586
Speaker 8: by the way, like what is the highest rate card?

257
00:13:50,126 --> 00:13:52,976
Speaker 8: It's just a very complicated mess to get your way

258
00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:53,426
Speaker 8: out of.

259
00:13:54,316 --> 00:13:56,976
Speaker 2: Angela wondered why no one had tried to help people

260
00:13:57,016 --> 00:14:00,156
Speaker 2: who had gotten into this mess. Why no one had, say,

261
00:14:00,416 --> 00:14:03,416
Speaker 2: tried to create a money coaching business. The same way

262
00:14:03,446 --> 00:14:05,766
Speaker 2: that Richard Thaler wondered why no one had even tried

263
00:14:05,806 --> 00:14:09,426
Speaker 2: to create a good bank. Then she realized, the sort

264
00:14:09,446 --> 00:14:12,146
Speaker 2: of people with the ability to coach other people about money,

265
00:14:12,846 --> 00:14:15,526
Speaker 2: or to finance a company to coach other people about money,

266
00:14:16,306 --> 00:14:20,226
Speaker 2: those people already had money. People who didn't have money

267
00:14:20,566 --> 00:14:21,706
Speaker 2: were like Martians to them.

268
00:14:24,306 --> 00:14:25,496
Speaker 8: The person who grew up on food stamps.

269
00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:26,696
Speaker 11: Right.

270
00:14:26,896 --> 00:14:28,876
Speaker 2: And he's not the person who's got five different credit

271
00:14:28,896 --> 00:14:31,496
Speaker 2: cards maxed out and is paying 30% interest rate to

272
00:14:31,596 --> 00:14:36,746
Speaker 2: some bank. Another problem Angela saw, trust. Americans had been

273
00:14:36,826 --> 00:14:39,126
Speaker 2: screwed by consumer finance for so long that they were

274
00:14:39,166 --> 00:14:42,286
Speaker 2: likely to be wary when some companies sprung up, claiming

275
00:14:42,326 --> 00:14:43,996
Speaker 2: it was actually going to be on their side.

276
00:14:44,496 --> 00:14:47,296
Speaker 8: Like it takes time as an athlete or as anything

277
00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:50,096
Speaker 8: to build trust with your coach. And so they'll start

278
00:14:50,156 --> 00:14:52,996
Speaker 8: by making these suggestions and you might follow them, you

279
00:14:53,036 --> 00:14:54,486
Speaker 8: might not follow them. And, you know, if they're a

280
00:14:54,486 --> 00:14:57,126
Speaker 8: good coach and they know you really well, then you'll

281
00:14:57,166 --> 00:14:59,926
Speaker 8: notice that over time as you take more of their suggestions,

282
00:14:59,966 --> 00:15:01,426
Speaker 8: you tend to perform better.

283
00:15:07,696 --> 00:15:11,176
Speaker 2: The explosion of coaching. It's related to the war on referees.

284
00:15:11,846 --> 00:15:14,436
Speaker 2: It's what happens when more and more of life feels

285
00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:18,516
Speaker 2: like a brutal competitive sport. The scarier it is to lose,

286
00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:22,016
Speaker 2: the more people scramble to find an edge. That's what

287
00:15:22,036 --> 00:15:22,716
Speaker 2: a coach offers.

288
00:15:23,356 --> 00:15:23,776
Speaker 7: An edge.

289
00:15:25,256 --> 00:15:28,686
Speaker 2: Angela Strange had noticed an absence, just as Richard Thaler

290
00:15:28,726 --> 00:15:31,686
Speaker 2: had noticed an absence, of a coach who really should

291
00:15:31,746 --> 00:15:36,386
Speaker 2: exist in the middle of American financial life. Both were waiting.

292
00:15:37,336 --> 00:15:53,936
Speaker 2: For whom or what? They did not know. In the

293
00:15:53,956 --> 00:15:57,616
Speaker 2: year of our Lord 1979, in the mountains of Colorado,

294
00:15:58,016 --> 00:16:02,516
Speaker 2: a woman gives birth, out of wedlock, to a boy. Jason,

295
00:16:02,576 --> 00:16:05,956
Speaker 2: she names him. The mom's name is Christina Brown. She's

296
00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:09,136
Speaker 2: a fundamentalist Christian and takes the Bible as the literal truth.

297
00:16:10,056 --> 00:16:11,836
Speaker 2: She doesn't know how she's going to make ends meet,

298
00:16:11,916 --> 00:16:14,216
Speaker 2: but she knows what she wants for her child. She

299
00:16:14,256 --> 00:16:17,416
Speaker 2: wants him to be well-educated. To make sure that happens,

300
00:16:18,036 --> 00:16:19,106
Speaker 2: she'll educate him herself.

301
00:16:21,676 --> 00:16:25,676
Speaker 11: When we were studying the health unit, I had Jason

302
00:16:26,076 --> 00:16:28,436
Speaker 11: clean the floor on his hands and knees with an

303
00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:31,816
Speaker 11: extra 50-pound backpack on his back so that he would

304
00:16:31,856 --> 00:16:33,976
Speaker 11: know what it would be like to be overweight.

305
00:16:34,516 --> 00:16:37,236
Speaker 2: That's Christina. She didn't want her son to be taught

306
00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:40,516
Speaker 2: what was taught in schools, the theory of evolution, for instance.

307
00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:43,156
Speaker 2: But mostly, she just thought she could teach him better

308
00:16:43,176 --> 00:16:44,116
Speaker 2: than any school could.

309
00:16:44,496 --> 00:16:46,196
Speaker 1: It was like, hey, Jason, what do you want to learn?

310
00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:48,876
Speaker 1: The world is your classroom. You can go learn anything

311
00:16:48,896 --> 00:16:49,316
Speaker 1: you want.

312
00:16:49,636 --> 00:16:51,836
Speaker 2: That's Jason Brown. All grown up now.

313
00:16:52,276 --> 00:16:54,856
Speaker 1: And, you know, there's one time in particular I remember,

314
00:16:54,876 --> 00:16:56,416
Speaker 1: she's like, what do you want to learn? And I said,

315
00:16:56,596 --> 00:17:00,136
Speaker 1: I want to learn about taxidermy. And she said, okay, fine.

316
00:17:00,536 --> 00:17:02,216
Speaker 1: She goes through the Yellow Pages. This was in the

317
00:17:02,256 --> 00:17:04,856
Speaker 1: time where you had Yellow Pages. And she calls all

318
00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:09,116
Speaker 1: the taxidermists and convinces some guy who owns a taxidermy

319
00:17:09,156 --> 00:17:12,216
Speaker 1: shop to let us go camp out in his workplace

320
00:17:12,256 --> 00:17:15,256
Speaker 1: for a week. And we would show up there and

321
00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:17,286
Speaker 1: he would show us how we would take these animals

322
00:17:17,506 --> 00:17:20,306
Speaker 1: and end up stuffing them and turning them into things

323
00:17:20,346 --> 00:17:22,906
Speaker 1: that could go on people's walls. And what was really

324
00:17:22,946 --> 00:17:25,366
Speaker 1: cool is, you know, I learned about biology. I learned

325
00:17:25,386 --> 00:17:28,006
Speaker 1: about the anatomy of animals. He taught us about the

326
00:17:28,026 --> 00:17:30,466
Speaker 1: chemicals that were used. And then I would ask a

327
00:17:30,506 --> 00:17:32,896
Speaker 1: lot of questions about just the business of taxidermy, like

328
00:17:33,196 --> 00:17:34,736
Speaker 1: how much do all these chemicals cost?

329
00:17:34,776 --> 00:17:35,996
Speaker 7: How much did you pay for this thing? What do

330
00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:36,676
Speaker 7: you sell it for?

331
00:17:36,696 --> 00:17:41,576
Speaker 2: The education of Jason Brown wasn't normal. It was kinetic, hands-on.

332
00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:45,366
Speaker 2: His mother encouraged him to ask questions. But at the

333
00:17:45,426 --> 00:17:50,936
Speaker 2: same time, he lived in a very small world. It

334
00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:54,076
Speaker 2: was just her and him and his little brother. Maybe

335
00:17:54,096 --> 00:17:56,436
Speaker 2: because he was so dependent on his mom, he worried

336
00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,956
Speaker 2: about her. Even as a little kid, he could see

337
00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,836
Speaker 2: that she was exposed and vulnerable. Especially when it came

338
00:18:02,936 --> 00:18:03,396
Speaker 2: to money.

339
00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:08,316
Speaker 11: My money was in envelopes. And each envelope had a

340
00:18:08,376 --> 00:18:11,956
Speaker 11: different designation. And when the money was gone, it was gone.

341
00:18:11,976 --> 00:18:14,296
Speaker 7: What would have been the envelope's designations?

342
00:18:14,626 --> 00:18:19,386
Speaker 11: Okay. The first envelope was my tithe. Then it was rent.

343
00:18:19,776 --> 00:18:25,596
Speaker 11: Then it was groceries, miscellaneous, electric, gas.

344
00:18:27,256 --> 00:18:29,046
Speaker 7: And you paid in that order?

345
00:18:29,206 --> 00:18:29,426
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

346
00:18:29,966 --> 00:18:30,446
Speaker 7: That's right.

347
00:18:31,486 --> 00:18:34,966
Speaker 11: We literally, and I'm not exaggerating, ate beans and rice

348
00:18:35,026 --> 00:18:37,766
Speaker 11: pretty much every day. I ground my own wheat, made

349
00:18:37,826 --> 00:18:41,676
Speaker 11: my own whole wheat bread, made my own tortillas, made

350
00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:44,656
Speaker 11: cereal in the crock pot for breakfast, and we had

351
00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:48,216
Speaker 11: peanut butter on toast. We ate very simply. We shopped

352
00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:52,656
Speaker 11: at Goodwill. even for Christmas gifts, birthday gifts.

353
00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:58,556
Speaker 2: Sometimes Jason snuck a peek inside the money envelopes. A

354
00:18:58,596 --> 00:19:00,816
Speaker 2: lot of the time they were totally empty. Yet even

355
00:19:00,856 --> 00:19:03,766
Speaker 2: when she had no money, his mother insisted on staying

356
00:19:03,846 --> 00:19:06,886
Speaker 2: home and teaching him and his brother. By the time

357
00:19:06,926 --> 00:19:09,566
Speaker 2: he was 10 years old, Jason was fully aware that

358
00:19:09,606 --> 00:19:13,506
Speaker 2: his mother was running huge risks. They were totally on

359
00:19:13,546 --> 00:19:17,426
Speaker 2: their own. There was no safety net. The most trivial

360
00:19:17,486 --> 00:19:18,986
Speaker 2: events could disrupt their lives.

361
00:19:19,646 --> 00:19:21,886
Speaker 7: So we had this friend, his name was Donnie. He's

362
00:19:21,906 --> 00:19:22,566
Speaker 7: a big kid.

363
00:19:23,246 --> 00:19:25,446
Speaker 1: And he came over to the house and like spent

364
00:19:25,466 --> 00:19:26,546
Speaker 1: the weekend or something like that.

365
00:19:26,666 --> 00:19:29,976
Speaker 7: And Donnie ate a lot. And he really, really liked

366
00:19:30,076 --> 00:19:30,556
Speaker 7: milk too.

367
00:19:31,136 --> 00:19:34,676
Speaker 1: And I remember specifically in the kitchen and Donnie was

368
00:19:34,696 --> 00:19:38,136
Speaker 1: just pounding the milk and he finished the milk. And

369
00:19:38,156 --> 00:19:39,986
Speaker 1: I remember looking at my mom and she looked at

370
00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:44,886
Speaker 1: me and I could just see the dread and fear

371
00:19:45,046 --> 00:19:47,826
Speaker 1: on her face because it's Donnie drank all the milk.

372
00:19:48,176 --> 00:19:50,416
Speaker 7: Donnie drank an envelope. Yeah, he drank an envelope.

373
00:19:50,596 --> 00:19:54,686
Speaker 1: And we just– because I knew that the envelope for

374
00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:58,096
Speaker 1: food was already used up. And you know, I could

375
00:19:58,176 --> 00:19:59,636
Speaker 1: see in her eyes, like, hey, what are we going

376
00:19:59,656 --> 00:20:01,396
Speaker 1: to do? Like, we can't go and buy more milk.

377
00:20:01,456 --> 00:20:01,996
Speaker 7: Like, that's it.

378
00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:09,036
Speaker 2: So they went without milk. Another memory is the day

379
00:20:09,076 --> 00:20:11,016
Speaker 2: Jason's mom told him that she needed to take on

380
00:20:11,036 --> 00:20:13,506
Speaker 2: a second job. And he'd have to go to a

381
00:20:13,706 --> 00:20:16,866
Speaker 2: real school. He was in the eighth grade. The real

382
00:20:16,926 --> 00:20:20,216
Speaker 2: school was hellish. Other kids made fun of him. One day,

383
00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:21,776
Speaker 2: a kid just walked up to him and punched him

384
00:20:21,816 --> 00:20:24,046
Speaker 2: in the face, and no one did anything about it.

385
00:20:24,816 --> 00:20:27,576
Speaker 2: Jason felt totally loved by his mom, and he loved

386
00:20:27,626 --> 00:20:31,056
Speaker 2: her back. She'd given him real strengths. He knew how

387
00:20:31,096 --> 00:20:34,586
Speaker 2: to learn, to teach himself. But she'd also left him

388
00:20:34,606 --> 00:20:39,786
Speaker 2: with a fear of money, of being one accident away

389
00:20:39,826 --> 00:20:43,106
Speaker 2: from disaster. His mother couldn't afford for him to fall

390
00:20:43,146 --> 00:20:45,826
Speaker 2: off his bike and break his wrist, much less pay

391
00:20:45,866 --> 00:20:48,236
Speaker 2: for him to go to college. He went to the

392
00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:52,046
Speaker 2: University of Colorado anyway. To pay for it, he took

393
00:20:52,126 --> 00:20:55,346
Speaker 2: out student loans. But the moment he did that, he

394
00:20:55,406 --> 00:20:59,166
Speaker 2: felt exposed and vulnerable, like his mom. He was 18

395
00:20:59,166 --> 00:20:59,606
Speaker 2: years old.

396
00:21:01,646 --> 00:21:06,246
Speaker 1: I would drive home every single weekend, starting in January,

397
00:21:06,726 --> 00:21:08,826
Speaker 1: and I would go home to my hometown where I

398
00:21:08,866 --> 00:21:10,726
Speaker 1: grew up, and it was about two, two and a

399
00:21:10,726 --> 00:21:13,086
Speaker 1: half hour drive, and I would spend the weekend knocking

400
00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:16,096
Speaker 1: on doors, handing out flyers, saying, hey, would you hire

401
00:21:16,136 --> 00:21:17,016
Speaker 1: me to paint your house?

402
00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:19,836
Speaker 2: Jason had never painted a house. But then there was

403
00:21:19,876 --> 00:21:21,676
Speaker 2: a time when he didn't know how to stuff an animal,

404
00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:23,236
Speaker 2: and he'd figured out how to do that.

405
00:21:23,496 --> 00:21:25,936
Speaker 1: And there's just, you know, there's six feet of snow outside,

406
00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:28,186
Speaker 1: and this kid is trying to convince you to paint

407
00:21:28,206 --> 00:21:31,286
Speaker 1: his house. And they're like, number one, come back to

408
00:21:31,306 --> 00:21:33,146
Speaker 1: me in the summer. Number two, how many houses have

409
00:21:33,186 --> 00:21:35,246
Speaker 1: you painted? Like, I've never painted a house in my life.

410
00:21:35,726 --> 00:21:37,526
Speaker 1: But I promise I'm going to hire people who do

411
00:21:37,566 --> 00:21:38,486
Speaker 1: know how to paint their house.

412
00:21:39,026 --> 00:21:41,256
Speaker 2: Maybe the oddest thing about Jason Brown is that he

413
00:21:41,266 --> 00:21:45,716
Speaker 2: found nothing odd about any of this. An 18-year-old convincing

414
00:21:45,756 --> 00:21:48,986
Speaker 2: grown-ups in the snow... to trust him with their homes.

415
00:21:49,246 --> 00:21:51,736
Speaker 1: So I brought snowshoes, and I would have a pair

416
00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:53,596
Speaker 1: for me and a pair for them, and I knew

417
00:21:53,656 --> 00:21:55,716
Speaker 1: as long as I could convince the homeowner to put

418
00:21:55,776 --> 00:21:57,556
Speaker 1: on their shoes and coat and go around the house

419
00:21:57,656 --> 00:21:59,976
Speaker 1: with me in snowshoes, that they would then, by the

420
00:22:00,016 --> 00:22:01,916
Speaker 1: end of that, have a pretty good chance of hiring me.

421
00:22:04,646 --> 00:22:06,686
Speaker 2: He was still a kid, but pretty soon, this wasn't

422
00:22:06,726 --> 00:22:07,526
Speaker 2: a kid's business.

423
00:22:08,186 --> 00:22:10,846
Speaker 1: The crazy thing is, by the end of the summer,

424
00:22:11,146 --> 00:22:14,506
Speaker 1: I had painted something like 40 or 50 homes, and

425
00:22:14,746 --> 00:22:17,416
Speaker 1: I had, I think, 15 or 20 employees And I

426
00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,076
Speaker 1: actually put $ 50, 000.

427
00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:21,496
Speaker 7: In my pocket for one summer. Really?

428
00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:22,956
Speaker 12: You cleared $ 50, 000?

429
00:22:22,436 --> 00:22:26,746
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was $ 150, 000 of total revenue, and it was

430
00:22:26,746 --> 00:22:27,646
Speaker 1: $ 50, 000 net to me.

431
00:22:28,246 --> 00:22:31,426
Speaker 2: He wasn't done. After Jason's first year in college, he

432
00:22:31,466 --> 00:22:34,646
Speaker 2: set out to grow his business. Rural Colorado wasn't a

433
00:22:34,686 --> 00:22:37,836
Speaker 2: great market. There weren't that many houses. The weather was

434
00:22:37,896 --> 00:22:40,056
Speaker 2: hard on paint, but not as hard as it was

435
00:22:40,096 --> 00:22:42,816
Speaker 2: in other places. He decided to find a better market.

436
00:22:44,166 --> 00:22:48,396
Speaker 7: And so I transferred to Boston University. And by the time... Wait, wait.

437
00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:53,156
Speaker 2: You transferred to Boston University specifically to pursue the business

438
00:22:53,176 --> 00:22:53,936
Speaker 2: of painting houses?

439
00:22:54,036 --> 00:22:55,616
Speaker 7: I did, yes. Because you'd made so much money in

440
00:22:55,656 --> 00:22:56,136
Speaker 7: painting houses.

441
00:22:56,196 --> 00:22:56,476
Speaker 12: I didn't.

442
00:22:56,536 --> 00:22:56,836
Speaker 7: I was like.

443
00:22:56,876 --> 00:22:58,356
Speaker 12: You realized you weren't even in the right place to

444
00:22:58,386 --> 00:22:58,726
Speaker 12: paint houses.

445
00:22:58,836 --> 00:22:59,186
Speaker 7: Exactly.

446
00:22:59,206 --> 00:23:00,806
Speaker 12: So you picked your school based on where there'd be

447
00:23:00,826 --> 00:23:02,026
Speaker 12: the most houses to paint.

448
00:23:02,206 --> 00:23:03,206
Speaker 7: You got it. Exactly.

449
00:23:03,846 --> 00:23:07,266
Speaker 2: At BU, Jason ran his painting business from his laptop

450
00:23:07,506 --> 00:23:10,546
Speaker 2: at the back of classrooms, prepping for the big season.

451
00:23:10,826 --> 00:23:12,556
Speaker 7: In the summer when we were painting all the houses,

452
00:23:12,636 --> 00:23:13,196
Speaker 7: it was about 400 employees.

453
00:23:14,656 --> 00:23:17,216
Speaker 1: And I think in the year that I sold the company,

454
00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:19,936
Speaker 1: we were doing about $ 3 million of total revenue. I

455
00:23:19,956 --> 00:23:22,036
Speaker 1: don't remember the exact amount that I made from all that.

456
00:23:22,256 --> 00:23:22,996
Speaker 12: A couple of questions.

457
00:23:23,096 --> 00:23:26,096
Speaker 2: One, at any point, are you conscious that you're being

458
00:23:26,146 --> 00:23:28,466
Speaker 2: driven by having grown up in an environment where money

459
00:23:28,506 --> 00:23:29,166
Speaker 2: was so scarce?

460
00:23:29,646 --> 00:23:29,966
Speaker 7: I did.

461
00:23:30,046 --> 00:23:33,786
Speaker 1: So when I was, I think I was probably about 10,

462
00:23:33,786 --> 00:23:35,026
Speaker 1: I really loved avocados.

463
00:23:35,966 --> 00:23:39,226
Speaker 7: And money was so tight in our household, we'd go

464
00:23:39,246 --> 00:23:39,786
Speaker 7: to the grocery store.

465
00:23:39,806 --> 00:23:42,256
Speaker 1: I'm like, mom, can I have avocados? She's like, I'm sorry,

466
00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:44,406
Speaker 1: they're too expensive. Every now and then we would get one.

467
00:23:44,426 --> 00:23:44,986
Speaker 7: It was a treat.

468
00:23:45,276 --> 00:23:49,126
Speaker 1: And I remember just savoring every bite of that buttery avocado.

469
00:23:49,606 --> 00:23:51,366
Speaker 7: And in my mind, I committed.

470
00:23:51,386 --> 00:23:53,146
Speaker 1: I said, I will be rich enough one day to

471
00:23:53,366 --> 00:23:57,086
Speaker 1: eat as many avocados as I want. And still to

472
00:23:57,126 --> 00:23:59,156
Speaker 1: this day, I eat an avocado almost every single day.

473
00:23:59,736 --> 00:24:01,856
Speaker 1: And not a single time do I ever open an

474
00:24:01,916 --> 00:24:04,596
Speaker 1: avocado and not feel just immense gratitude for being able

475
00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:06,376
Speaker 1: to afford as many avocados.

476
00:24:06,396 --> 00:24:07,816
Speaker 12: You haven't gotten used to avocados yet.

477
00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:09,196
Speaker 7: I've not gotten tired of.

478
00:24:09,196 --> 00:24:09,456
Speaker 11: Them, no.

479
00:24:10,096 --> 00:24:12,766
Speaker 2: Jason went to grad school in business at the University

480
00:24:12,786 --> 00:24:16,566
Speaker 2: of Chicago. Pretty soon he knew rich people, but they

481
00:24:16,586 --> 00:24:19,426
Speaker 2: didn't seem nearly as admirable or hardworking as his mother.

482
00:24:20,086 --> 00:24:22,886
Speaker 2: He was coming to see money and the problems around

483
00:24:22,946 --> 00:24:27,306
Speaker 2: money as its own thing, as problems some people just had.

484
00:24:31,566 --> 00:24:34,586
Speaker 2: Jason Brown started more companies and sold them. The companies

485
00:24:34,626 --> 00:24:37,246
Speaker 2: all had one thing in common. They made it easy

486
00:24:37,286 --> 00:24:40,186
Speaker 2: for people to do things they really should do, One

487
00:24:40,206 --> 00:24:41,886
Speaker 2: of his companies made it easy for people to get

488
00:24:41,926 --> 00:24:45,896
Speaker 2: their home computers fixed remotely. Geek Squad before Geek Squad.

489
00:24:46,576 --> 00:24:48,936
Speaker 2: Another made it easy for homeowners to switch to solar

490
00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:52,116
Speaker 2: power and cut their electricity bills in half. Jason was

491
00:24:52,176 --> 00:24:53,396
Speaker 2: all about making it easy.

492
00:24:55,126 --> 00:24:58,546
Speaker 1: We did not evolve to do multi-period financial optimization, right?

493
00:24:58,786 --> 00:25:01,926
Speaker 1: As hairless apes, we did not have this expectation that

494
00:25:01,946 --> 00:25:05,206
Speaker 1: we're going to live 80 years and be part of

495
00:25:05,306 --> 00:25:07,536
Speaker 1: a global economy with all this complexity.

496
00:25:08,216 --> 00:25:11,136
Speaker 2: One day he was reading a book, Yuval Harari's Sapiens.

497
00:25:11,756 --> 00:25:14,686
Speaker 2: It was about how humans evolved and where the species

498
00:25:14,746 --> 00:25:18,056
Speaker 2: might be heading. Evolution was a new idea to Jason.

499
00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:19,936
Speaker 2: He thought it explained a lot.

500
00:25:20,416 --> 00:25:24,986
Speaker 1: Almost out of corporate evolution, this entire industry, the finance industry,

501
00:25:25,426 --> 00:25:29,146
Speaker 1: has evolved to exploit every single cognitive bias.

502
00:25:29,506 --> 00:25:31,656
Speaker 12: Every mistake that people make when they're thinking about money.

503
00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:32,176
Speaker 7: Exactly.

504
00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:35,216
Speaker 1: Every little bug we have in our brains that served

505
00:25:35,256 --> 00:25:37,556
Speaker 1: us well when we were on the Savannah, but now

506
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:41,026
Speaker 1: is not maybe directly translatable to the kind of lives

507
00:25:41,046 --> 00:25:45,216
Speaker 1: we live. And Every product they have, every contract they

508
00:25:45,256 --> 00:25:48,796
Speaker 1: make is designed to exploit these bugs in our brain.

509
00:25:48,836 --> 00:25:50,816
Speaker 12: Getting people to do things they really shouldn't do.

510
00:25:51,066 --> 00:25:51,226
Speaker 11: Yep.

511
00:25:55,626 --> 00:25:58,906
Speaker 2: For Jason, money wasn't just money. At some point, he

512
00:25:58,946 --> 00:26:01,746
Speaker 2: realized that every time he thought about money, he also

513
00:26:01,806 --> 00:26:04,726
Speaker 2: thought about his mom and her three envelopes of cash

514
00:26:04,766 --> 00:26:05,226
Speaker 2: for the month.

515
00:26:05,766 --> 00:26:07,226
Speaker 1: I actually need to tell you a little bit more

516
00:26:07,266 --> 00:26:07,906
Speaker 1: about my mom.

517
00:26:08,146 --> 00:26:12,066
Speaker 7: Okay. My mom is, so she's my hero.

518
00:26:12,426 --> 00:26:14,566
Speaker 1: And the reason she's my hero is she grew up

519
00:26:14,886 --> 00:26:17,606
Speaker 1: in a pretty challenging childhood.

520
00:26:18,046 --> 00:26:20,066
Speaker 7: Not a lot of resources, not very supportive.

521
00:26:20,366 --> 00:26:24,156
Speaker 1: She ended up having me when she was 21 or 22,

522
00:26:24,156 --> 00:26:25,956
Speaker 1: just a high school graduate, no higher education.

523
00:26:26,996 --> 00:26:29,596
Speaker 2: She had overcome all that and given him and his

524
00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:31,316
Speaker 2: brother the most amazing education.

525
00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:37,066
Speaker 7: She is just the model of discipline. I I'm so

526
00:26:37,126 --> 00:26:38,306
Speaker 7: proud of her.

527
00:26:38,346 --> 00:26:39,436
Speaker 12: That's hard to be, presumably.

528
00:26:39,696 --> 00:26:42,196
Speaker 7: It is, it is. A raw vegan. It is very hard.

529
00:26:42,576 --> 00:26:44,256
Speaker 7: And she's 62 now.

530
00:26:44,256 --> 00:26:47,076
Speaker 2: 62, in most of her life, she'd had to figure

531
00:26:47,116 --> 00:26:49,256
Speaker 2: out everything on her own, including money.

532
00:26:49,896 --> 00:26:52,696
Speaker 1: Like, let's say she graduates high school and there's, like,

533
00:26:52,936 --> 00:26:55,386
Speaker 1: an accountant and a financial advisor that are just like,

534
00:26:55,706 --> 00:26:56,326
Speaker 1: we're going to do.

535
00:26:56,356 --> 00:26:56,826
Speaker 7: All your financial.

536
00:26:56,846 --> 00:26:58,166
Speaker 2: If she had a coach coming out of high school.

537
00:26:58,206 --> 00:26:59,886
Speaker 1: Yeah, if she had a coach coming out of high school,

538
00:27:00,126 --> 00:27:02,666
Speaker 1: I know she'd own a home right now properly. She'd

539
00:27:02,706 --> 00:27:05,306
Speaker 1: have a nice little nest egg of retirement. She would

540
00:27:05,326 --> 00:27:06,066
Speaker 1: be in a good spot.

541
00:27:06,106 --> 00:27:08,756
Speaker 7: It definitely was possible. But she didn't have that.

542
00:27:10,976 --> 00:27:13,336
Speaker 2: Jason could take care of his mom, and he did.

543
00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:16,516
Speaker 2: But what about all the other moms? He decided to

544
00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:19,786
Speaker 2: create a company specifically to help them. He looked hard

545
00:27:19,806 --> 00:27:22,526
Speaker 2: at the entire money game before he settled on consumer

546
00:27:22,566 --> 00:27:26,306
Speaker 2: finance and especially credit cards. Because if finance is a

547
00:27:26,346 --> 00:27:29,986
Speaker 2: competitive sport, the credit card companies are undefeated.

548
00:27:30,426 --> 00:27:33,946
Speaker 1: They've smashed together a payment tool and a loan into one.

549
00:27:34,246 --> 00:27:36,806
Speaker 1: And they've designed the payment tool to, again, exploit all

550
00:27:36,826 --> 00:27:39,646
Speaker 1: these bugs in our brain. So you get points for spending.

551
00:27:39,886 --> 00:27:42,366
Speaker 1: You get access to lounges. It comes in different colors

552
00:27:42,426 --> 00:27:46,086
Speaker 1: and metals. You can even get your dog's picture printed

553
00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:49,086
Speaker 1: on the card, right? So they create all of these

554
00:27:49,186 --> 00:27:50,786
Speaker 1: things that- Make you want to use it.

555
00:27:50,846 --> 00:27:51,486
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly.

556
00:27:51,546 --> 00:27:53,186
Speaker 1: Make you want to use it and make you, when

557
00:27:53,206 --> 00:27:56,146
Speaker 1: you go get a credit card, you're not thinking about, oh,

558
00:27:56,286 --> 00:27:58,456
Speaker 1: I might end up getting charged this interest down the road.

559
00:27:58,736 --> 00:27:59,696
Speaker 7: You're thinking about, oh, I'm.

560
00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:02,076
Speaker 1: Going to get these points and have access to these hotels,

561
00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:05,676
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And that allows banks to substantially overcharge

562
00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:06,956
Speaker 1: everybody on the interest rates.

563
00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:09,376
Speaker 12: So they just distract you from the cost of the

564
00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:09,896
Speaker 12: interest rate.

565
00:28:10,036 --> 00:28:10,416
Speaker 7: Exactly.

566
00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:13,176
Speaker 2: So there's no one out there competing by saying, get

567
00:28:13,256 --> 00:28:15,456
Speaker 2: our card and we'll give you a lower interest rate.

568
00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:15,836
Speaker 7: Correct.

569
00:28:15,856 --> 00:28:17,336
Speaker 12: Because it's not even in the conversation.

570
00:28:20,576 --> 00:28:22,676
Speaker 2: Which is insane if you stop and think about it.

571
00:28:23,126 --> 00:28:25,386
Speaker 2: I mean, our government hardly pays any interest on most

572
00:28:25,426 --> 00:28:30,086
Speaker 2: of its debt. Really risky companies can borrow at 7%.

573
00:28:30,086 --> 00:28:32,766
Speaker 2: To think that millions of people are paying 19 to

574
00:28:32,766 --> 00:28:36,366
Speaker 2: 30 percent interest on anything? Who, other than the American

575
00:28:36,426 --> 00:28:39,806
Speaker 2: credit card borrower, pays so much? And that's not even

576
00:28:39,886 --> 00:28:43,046
Speaker 2: counting the billions in late fees. Once Jason homed in

577
00:28:43,106 --> 00:28:46,556
Speaker 2: on this particular racket, he noticed other things. Like the

578
00:28:46,616 --> 00:28:49,436
Speaker 2: monthly statements these lenders send to people who owed them money.

579
00:28:51,136 --> 00:28:52,696
Speaker 1: If you look at a credit card statement, the thing

580
00:28:52,736 --> 00:28:55,976
Speaker 1: with the biggest font, it's like size 80, 90 font,

581
00:28:56,016 --> 00:28:59,206
Speaker 1: is your minimum payment. They're using something called the anchoring effect,

582
00:28:59,486 --> 00:29:01,526
Speaker 1: which show you a low number and gets you to

583
00:29:01,586 --> 00:29:04,366
Speaker 1: pay relatively low amounts to the card, which means that

584
00:29:04,526 --> 00:29:06,166
Speaker 1: you have more debt and they charge you more money.

585
00:29:06,246 --> 00:29:06,366
Speaker 5: Right.

586
00:29:06,386 --> 00:29:07,666
Speaker 12: They're trying to encourage you to go into debt.

587
00:29:07,686 --> 00:29:10,816
Speaker 7: Yes. So they're encouraging you to spend and encouraging you.

588
00:29:10,836 --> 00:29:11,716
Speaker 12: It's like bad coaching.

589
00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:13,056
Speaker 7: It is bad coaching. Right.

590
00:29:13,616 --> 00:29:15,996
Speaker 2: The more Jason Brown looked into the credit card industry,

591
00:29:16,536 --> 00:29:18,096
Speaker 2: the more he thought he might be able to get

592
00:29:18,156 --> 00:29:19,156
Speaker 2: people out from under.

593
00:29:19,016 --> 00:29:19,976
Speaker 7: It with an app.

594
00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:22,376
Speaker 12: Do you think financial behaviors can be changed?

595
00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:25,316
Speaker 7: I 100% believe financial behaviors can be changed.

596
00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 2: Jason created yet another company and called it Tally. He

597
00:29:29,856 --> 00:29:32,496
Speaker 2: got the investor Angela Strange to give him money and

598
00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:36,416
Speaker 2: to join his board. The ideas behind Tally could be

599
00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:38,776
Speaker 2: traced to a class that he had snuck into at

600
00:29:38,816 --> 00:29:42,666
Speaker 2: the Booth School of Business in Chicago, taught by Richard Thaler.

601
00:29:43,426 --> 00:29:45,806
Speaker 2: The biggest idea was that it was very hard to

602
00:29:45,866 --> 00:29:48,886
Speaker 2: change people's behavior unless you make it easy for people

603
00:29:48,906 --> 00:29:52,056
Speaker 2: to change. Make it feel to them like no more

604
00:29:52,096 --> 00:29:52,736
Speaker 2: than a nudge.

605
00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,976
Speaker 3: We viewed nudges as an alternative to coaching.

606
00:29:58,356 --> 00:29:59,536
Speaker 2: That's Richard Thaler again.

607
00:30:00,386 --> 00:30:03,606
Speaker 10: You know, we could try to teach people to sign

608
00:30:03,666 --> 00:30:06,886
Speaker 10: up for the 401k plan where there's a company match

609
00:30:07,006 --> 00:30:09,706
Speaker 10: and turning it down is free money and stupid.

610
00:30:09,846 --> 00:30:10,046
Speaker 12: Right.

611
00:30:10,986 --> 00:30:12,986
Speaker 3: Or we could just automatically enroll them.

612
00:30:13,326 --> 00:30:13,506
Speaker 7: Right.

613
00:30:14,486 --> 00:30:17,966
Speaker 3: And we knew the latter works really well.

614
00:30:17,986 --> 00:30:18,326
Speaker 7: Right.

615
00:30:18,346 --> 00:30:20,846
Speaker 3: And the former is like pulling teeth.

616
00:30:21,146 --> 00:30:21,326
Speaker 10: Right.

617
00:30:21,786 --> 00:30:25,626
Speaker 2: So part of nudging is a response to a sense

618
00:30:25,666 --> 00:30:26,706
Speaker 2: of the limits of coaching.

619
00:30:26,946 --> 00:30:27,186
Speaker 11: Yeah.

620
00:30:28,006 --> 00:30:31,366
Speaker 2: That's the point, right? If you really thought, well, we

621
00:30:31,966 --> 00:30:33,756
Speaker 2: can coach all these people up and how not to

622
00:30:33,786 --> 00:30:36,976
Speaker 2: get exploited by credit card companies, you would coach them up.

623
00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:39,936
Speaker 3: The best thing is to make things automatic.

624
00:30:40,376 --> 00:30:41,676
Speaker 2: Making good behavior is easy.

625
00:30:41,736 --> 00:30:42,096
Speaker 7: Yeah.

626
00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:45,096
Speaker 2: The basis of Jason Brown's business is that class he

627
00:30:45,116 --> 00:30:48,836
Speaker 2: took from you. It's creating a decision environment where the

628
00:30:48,916 --> 00:30:51,736
Speaker 2: way that people naturally with least friction, least amount of

629
00:30:51,776 --> 00:30:54,796
Speaker 2: effort go is in their interest rather than against their interest.

630
00:30:55,616 --> 00:30:56,436
Speaker 2: So he picked that up.

631
00:30:56,756 --> 00:30:58,076
Speaker 3: It's a good lesson to have learned.

632
00:30:58,566 --> 00:31:00,926
Speaker 2: Thaler has not the first memory of Jason Brown in

633
00:31:00,966 --> 00:31:03,566
Speaker 2: his class, but Jason got the gist of Thaler's message.

634
00:31:03,966 --> 00:31:06,006
Speaker 2: He hired a bunch of engineers to spend three and

635
00:31:06,026 --> 00:31:08,876
Speaker 2: a half years building the company's software so that it

636
00:31:09,036 --> 00:31:11,956
Speaker 2: nudged people with credit card debt in ways that were

637
00:31:11,976 --> 00:31:14,856
Speaker 2: good for them. So if I have four different credit

638
00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:19,726
Speaker 2: cards from four different banks on my visas, I do

639
00:31:19,746 --> 00:31:20,486
Speaker 2: whatever I do.

640
00:31:21,526 --> 00:31:23,636
Speaker 12: But But you pay them off.

641
00:31:24,256 --> 00:31:24,686
Speaker 7: Yeah.

642
00:31:24,926 --> 00:31:25,726
Speaker 2: And I pay you.

643
00:31:25,926 --> 00:31:26,066
Speaker 5: Yeah.

644
00:31:26,166 --> 00:31:27,236
Speaker 12: So you tell me what I owe.

645
00:31:27,526 --> 00:31:30,226
Speaker 7: Exactly. So you download the app for free. You pass

646
00:31:30,286 --> 00:31:30,986
Speaker 7: a soft credit check.

647
00:31:31,326 --> 00:31:33,386
Speaker 1: And then we're saying, hey, Michael, we're going to pay

648
00:31:33,406 --> 00:31:35,566
Speaker 1: all these cards when they're due at the exact right time,

649
00:31:35,606 --> 00:31:36,746
Speaker 1: the exact right amount of interest.

650
00:31:36,766 --> 00:31:38,456
Speaker 2: So a couple of questions that naturally popped to mind.

651
00:31:39,036 --> 00:31:40,976
Speaker 2: You're going to charge me a much lower interest rate

652
00:31:40,996 --> 00:31:44,056
Speaker 2: than the credit card companies. How can you afford to

653
00:31:44,176 --> 00:31:46,776
Speaker 2: do that if they were charging me the actual.

654
00:31:47,856 --> 00:31:50,916
Speaker 12: correct rate, given the risk I present to them.

655
00:31:51,096 --> 00:31:51,996
Speaker 7: Well, here's the rub.

656
00:31:52,376 --> 00:31:56,626
Speaker 1: So coming back to this financial industry that is designed

657
00:31:56,646 --> 00:31:59,386
Speaker 1: to make money off of us, credit card interest rates

658
00:31:59,906 --> 00:32:01,086
Speaker 1: are astronomically high.

659
00:32:01,186 --> 00:32:03,386
Speaker 7: And they do not represent the rate that you should

660
00:32:03,406 --> 00:32:03,746
Speaker 7: be paying.

661
00:32:04,186 --> 00:32:06,246
Speaker 2: You'd save a bunch of money just by not paying

662
00:32:06,286 --> 00:32:09,026
Speaker 2: the high interest rate. Of course, you could ruin yourself

663
00:32:09,086 --> 00:32:11,586
Speaker 2: all over again by going out and buying stuff you shouldn't.

664
00:32:12,186 --> 00:32:14,586
Speaker 2: But Jason's hoping that he's nudged you into a different

665
00:32:14,626 --> 00:32:17,426
Speaker 2: state of mind. a state of mind in which you

666
00:32:17,466 --> 00:32:19,506
Speaker 2: would make wiser decisions about money.

667
00:32:19,786 --> 00:32:22,556
Speaker 1: And what we've seen is that when people invest more

668
00:32:23,256 --> 00:32:25,616
Speaker 1: in their debt, they actually just tend to spend less.

669
00:32:26,256 --> 00:32:27,636
Speaker 7: Mentally, it kind of makes sense because.

670
00:32:28,016 --> 00:32:29,976
Speaker 1: If you go out and let's say that you eat

671
00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:32,296
Speaker 1: out for lunch, somebody would be like, well, maybe I

672
00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:32,996
Speaker 1: don't want to eat out.

673
00:32:32,926 --> 00:32:34,426
Speaker 7: For dinner because I already spent some money.

674
00:32:34,766 --> 00:32:36,546
Speaker 1: So the effect is I feel like I kind of

675
00:32:36,626 --> 00:32:39,846
Speaker 1: spent money on my debt. And now maybe I don't

676
00:32:39,886 --> 00:32:41,606
Speaker 1: want to go out for lunch. Maybe I don't want

677
00:32:41,626 --> 00:32:42,266
Speaker 1: to go out for dinner.

678
00:32:42,806 --> 00:32:45,686
Speaker 2: Instead of giving people points for spending, Talley gives them

679
00:32:45,746 --> 00:32:48,656
Speaker 2: points for saving. Instead of encouraging them to pay off

680
00:32:48,696 --> 00:32:50,796
Speaker 2: the minimum, they help them to figure out how to

681
00:32:50,856 --> 00:32:53,936
Speaker 2: pay the maximum. Instead of trying to keep people acting

682
00:32:54,056 --> 00:32:56,596
Speaker 2: on impulse, it tries to get them to think twice.

683
00:32:57,456 --> 00:33:02,136
Speaker 2: The company took off, but something was bothering Jason. He

684
00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:04,706
Speaker 2: thought a company needed both a vision and a mission.

685
00:33:05,626 --> 00:33:08,746
Speaker 2: A vision was where you were going. A mission was

686
00:33:08,866 --> 00:33:15,486
Speaker 2: why you were going there. Jason wanted to understand the

687
00:33:15,546 --> 00:33:17,646
Speaker 2: deeper emotional consequences of debt.

688
00:33:18,126 --> 00:33:21,316
Speaker 1: And initially, my thought was that most of the emotions

689
00:33:21,376 --> 00:33:24,096
Speaker 1: would be around regret. Like, hey, I spent this money

690
00:33:24,116 --> 00:33:26,416
Speaker 1: in the past and I regret having bought that, right?

691
00:33:26,916 --> 00:33:29,476
Speaker 1: And regret is from the sadness family. So it's this

692
00:33:29,516 --> 00:33:31,556
Speaker 1: sense of loss of something in the past.

693
00:33:31,956 --> 00:33:34,476
Speaker 2: He hired a team of researchers to test this idea.

694
00:33:34,776 --> 00:33:38,866
Speaker 2: They came back and told Jason that, no, this wasn't

695
00:33:38,966 --> 00:33:39,666
Speaker 2: about sadness.

696
00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:42,636
Speaker 1: The emotions that were coming out were anxiety, which is

697
00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:44,956
Speaker 1: a fear emotion, and it's the feeling that there's a

698
00:33:45,036 --> 00:33:47,416
Speaker 1: threat in the future that you don't have the capacity

699
00:33:47,456 --> 00:33:49,076
Speaker 1: to handle or protect yourself.

700
00:33:50,006 --> 00:33:53,266
Speaker 2: Jason paid for another study, one that tried to measure

701
00:33:53,306 --> 00:33:55,766
Speaker 2: the stress levels of people with credit card debt.

702
00:33:56,066 --> 00:33:59,566
Speaker 1: We had found that two-thirds of individuals with card debt

703
00:33:59,926 --> 00:34:02,286
Speaker 1: have medical levels of anxiety. So meaning you're in a

704
00:34:02,306 --> 00:34:05,566
Speaker 1: doctor's office waiting for some important test results, the same

705
00:34:05,626 --> 00:34:08,116
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety that people feel there, that's what people

706
00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:10,096
Speaker 1: are feeling on a regular basis with their cards.

707
00:34:11,176 --> 00:34:14,156
Speaker 2: Millions of Americans are sick from this stress, and their

708
00:34:14,216 --> 00:34:16,256
Speaker 2: illness has all kinds of other effects.

709
00:34:16,776 --> 00:34:22,186
Speaker 1: Oftentimes, it's described as a weight on chest, drowning, not

710
00:34:22,226 --> 00:34:26,126
Speaker 1: being able to breathe. So a lot of people experience

711
00:34:26,146 --> 00:34:30,596
Speaker 1: stress as actual constriction within the body and Sensations of

712
00:34:30,656 --> 00:34:33,396
Speaker 1: tightness or acid in the stomach. You know, grinding of

713
00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:37,536
Speaker 1: teeth is really a common thing because it manifests oftentimes

714
00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:38,536
Speaker 1: while people are sleeping.

715
00:34:39,296 --> 00:34:42,446
Speaker 2: At some point, Jason realized that stress wasn't just a

716
00:34:42,586 --> 00:34:45,626
Speaker 2: bug in the American financial system. It was a feature.

717
00:34:45,926 --> 00:34:49,406
Speaker 1: There's a lot of research that suggests that it also

718
00:34:49,506 --> 00:34:50,406
Speaker 1: affects cognition.

719
00:34:50,806 --> 00:34:53,446
Speaker 2: So if you're like a sinister credit card company and

720
00:34:53,546 --> 00:34:57,986
Speaker 2: you're trying to keep people trapped in a dark financial world,

721
00:34:58,536 --> 00:35:00,516
Speaker 2: the first thing you would do is stress them out.

722
00:35:01,096 --> 00:35:04,296
Speaker 1: By definition, the way that the credit card statements are made,

723
00:35:04,416 --> 00:35:08,236
Speaker 1: especially by store cards, those cards that are associated with retailers,

724
00:35:08,666 --> 00:35:11,046
Speaker 1: the banks behind those are some of the best. And

725
00:35:11,146 --> 00:35:12,936
Speaker 1: even they do things like make it so that even

726
00:35:12,976 --> 00:35:14,686
Speaker 1: if you had wanted to set up an auto pay,

727
00:35:15,046 --> 00:35:18,066
Speaker 1: it's actually not a function that is available because they're

728
00:35:18,086 --> 00:35:20,846
Speaker 1: hoping that people will have late fees and forget about

729
00:35:20,886 --> 00:35:22,046
Speaker 1: balances and things like that.

730
00:35:25,846 --> 00:35:27,886
Speaker 2: It took Jason three and a half years to create

731
00:35:27,906 --> 00:35:30,126
Speaker 2: his app. It took him two minutes to create his

732
00:35:30,166 --> 00:35:34,146
Speaker 2: first logo. It's a woman, reclining in a chair, her

733
00:35:34,186 --> 00:35:36,336
Speaker 2: feet up on a table, and a cup of coffee

734
00:35:36,356 --> 00:35:39,536
Speaker 2: in her hand. A woman like his mom, but freed

735
00:35:39,576 --> 00:35:41,936
Speaker 2: from anxiety, with the help of a coach.

736
00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:44,466
Speaker 1: So if we were to use a sport analogy, the

737
00:35:44,506 --> 00:35:47,446
Speaker 1: coaches arrange for food and meals to be delivered so

738
00:35:47,486 --> 00:35:49,306
Speaker 1: you get to eat the right thing. They've set up

739
00:35:49,346 --> 00:35:51,666
Speaker 1: the gym membership for you. They've made it so that

740
00:35:51,726 --> 00:35:54,376
Speaker 1: not only are you being led for how you can

741
00:35:54,416 --> 00:35:57,156
Speaker 1: get the outcome you want, but also all the sources

742
00:35:57,176 --> 00:36:01,476
Speaker 1: of interference, as much as possible, are being removed.

743
00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:04,236
Speaker 2: 99% of the people who sign up to use Jason's

744
00:36:04,436 --> 00:36:07,516
Speaker 2: app have stayed with it. And it's kind of incredible

745
00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:10,026
Speaker 2: what happens to people when they're rewarded for behaving well

746
00:36:10,256 --> 00:36:11,106
Speaker 2: instead of badly.

747
00:36:11,466 --> 00:36:13,126
Speaker 1: They could say, oh, you know, I'd rather buy the

748
00:36:13,166 --> 00:36:15,066
Speaker 1: coffee than have it be set aside.

749
00:36:15,086 --> 00:36:15,266
Speaker 7: Right.

750
00:36:15,816 --> 00:36:18,126
Speaker 1: But 90% of people are still letting us set money

751
00:36:18,146 --> 00:36:20,226
Speaker 1: aside for them. And I think it has very much

752
00:36:20,266 --> 00:36:21,846
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that every time it happens,

753
00:36:21,866 --> 00:36:22,406
Speaker 1: you get points.

754
00:36:23,066 --> 00:36:25,466
Speaker 2: People would do the smart thing for themselves if you

755
00:36:25,486 --> 00:36:27,326
Speaker 2: made it easy for them to do the smart thing

756
00:36:27,366 --> 00:36:30,586
Speaker 2: for themselves. Make it easy, and people would create a

757
00:36:30,626 --> 00:36:34,746
Speaker 2: buffer for themselves, a margin of safety, a thing Jason's

758
00:36:34,826 --> 00:36:38,146
Speaker 2: mom had never had, and that had kept him awake

759
00:36:38,186 --> 00:36:40,706
Speaker 2: when he was a kid. Jason had not set out

760
00:36:40,756 --> 00:36:43,516
Speaker 2: to become a coach, but he saw that a coach

761
00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:45,036
Speaker 2: is exactly what he'd become.

762
00:36:45,506 --> 00:36:47,886
Speaker 1: The definition of a good coach is one who makes

763
00:36:47,926 --> 00:36:51,066
Speaker 1: their players feel like they don't need the coach. And

764
00:36:51,106 --> 00:36:53,646
Speaker 1: the way I think you do that is, first, you

765
00:36:53,686 --> 00:36:57,366
Speaker 1: take out all the hard work and all the distractions. Second,

766
00:36:57,406 --> 00:37:00,326
Speaker 1: you make it easy to have good behaviors. And third

767
00:37:00,406 --> 00:37:02,396
Speaker 1: is you make people want to have good behaviors.

768
00:37:05,196 --> 00:37:07,336
Speaker 2: And that's the thing about coaching that makes it so

769
00:37:07,396 --> 00:37:10,416
Speaker 2: hard to pin down. The best coaches don't leave you

770
00:37:10,476 --> 00:37:14,576
Speaker 2: needing them. You start with some fear or sense of inadequacy.

771
00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:17,886
Speaker 2: They help you get past it. Then they recede.

772
00:37:18,506 --> 00:37:21,066
Speaker 1: And in the future, every single one of us is

773
00:37:21,086 --> 00:37:24,286
Speaker 1: going to have this hyper smart service that's doing all

774
00:37:24,346 --> 00:37:26,946
Speaker 1: these complex things in the background and nudging us and

775
00:37:26,986 --> 00:37:29,466
Speaker 1: making us feel really good about, you know, eating our

776
00:37:29,506 --> 00:37:31,886
Speaker 1: financial broccoli, so to speak. And we're going to feel

777
00:37:31,926 --> 00:37:33,496
Speaker 1: great about it, but we're not even going to see it.

778
00:37:33,586 --> 00:37:34,776
Speaker 12: It's an invisible coach.

779
00:37:35,256 --> 00:37:38,516
Speaker 2: A coach that could maybe even help stop people from

780
00:37:38,576 --> 00:37:39,776
Speaker 2: grinding their teeth at night.

781
00:37:51,106 --> 00:37:52,646
Speaker 4: To be honest, I think I said this to you

782
00:37:52,666 --> 00:37:54,546
Speaker 4: on the phone. I have no idea what's in my

783
00:37:54,566 --> 00:37:55,106
Speaker 4: bank account.

784
00:37:55,686 --> 00:37:59,166
Speaker 2: Last October, we introduced Katie Hyland to Jason's company, Tally.

785
00:37:59,406 --> 00:38:02,346
Speaker 2: She decided she needed a coach, but her husband had

786
00:38:02,386 --> 00:38:04,326
Speaker 2: to sign her up because he was the only one

787
00:38:04,366 --> 00:38:05,966
Speaker 2: with the nerve to look at their bank account.

788
00:38:06,546 --> 00:38:09,196
Speaker 4: I make Steven check it. And I ask him whether

789
00:38:09,256 --> 00:38:11,576
Speaker 4: I'm good or not. And he says yes. And sometimes

790
00:38:11,616 --> 00:38:15,026
Speaker 4: I believe him and sometimes I don't. But as long

791
00:38:15,086 --> 00:38:17,066
Speaker 4: as I don't get a phone call from the landlord

792
00:38:17,106 --> 00:38:19,046
Speaker 4: that the rent didn't go through, then I know that

793
00:38:19,086 --> 00:38:24,146
Speaker 4: we're okay. So it scares the big Jesus out of

794
00:38:24,206 --> 00:38:27,866
Speaker 4: me to know what's in there because I don't think

795
00:38:27,986 --> 00:38:31,466
Speaker 4: like we don't spend frivolously. Like we, even where it

796
00:38:31,486 --> 00:38:35,626
Speaker 4: said like dining out, I put NA, like work meals.

797
00:38:35,746 --> 00:38:37,286
Speaker 4: And like, we don't do those things.

798
00:38:38,126 --> 00:38:40,646
Speaker 2: You can hear the anxiety in her voice, right? But

799
00:38:40,686 --> 00:38:45,086
Speaker 2: that could change. I'm betting it will change. Because a

800
00:38:45,086 --> 00:38:57,566
Speaker 2: good coach can change a lot. We gave Katie Hyland

801
00:38:57,586 --> 00:39:01,106
Speaker 2: some time before we bothered her again. All right, so

802
00:39:01,526 --> 00:39:03,406
Speaker 2: I don't know how many months ago we spoke. It

803
00:39:03,486 --> 00:39:06,426
Speaker 2: was a few months anyway. But since then, Like we

804
00:39:06,466 --> 00:39:10,546
Speaker 2: set you up with Tally and just the idea of

805
00:39:10,586 --> 00:39:11,466
Speaker 2: a financial coach.

806
00:39:12,066 --> 00:39:14,556
Speaker 4: So with Tally, they've been amazing.

807
00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:17,976
Speaker 2: How long was it before we introduced the two of you,

808
00:39:18,596 --> 00:39:20,916
Speaker 2: before you said, actually, this is a good thing? This

809
00:39:20,956 --> 00:39:23,856
Speaker 2: isn't just humoring Michael and his podcast. This is actually

810
00:39:23,896 --> 00:39:24,316
Speaker 2: a good thing.

811
00:39:24,656 --> 00:39:26,196
Speaker 7: No, immediately, immediately.

812
00:39:26,216 --> 00:39:29,036
Speaker 4: I think, you know, it was definitely overwhelming at first

813
00:39:29,056 --> 00:39:32,326
Speaker 4: to sort of, you know, gather all of those documents

814
00:39:32,386 --> 00:39:35,806
Speaker 4: and find out what my interest rates were and, you know,

815
00:39:35,886 --> 00:39:38,466
Speaker 4: figure out what things I was paying every month and

816
00:39:38,486 --> 00:39:41,116
Speaker 4: sort of get them. together in one central location. That

817
00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:44,776
Speaker 4: was a bit overwhelming, but I mean, they walked me

818
00:39:44,916 --> 00:39:48,326
Speaker 4: and talked me through absolutely every step of the way

819
00:39:49,206 --> 00:39:51,986
Speaker 4: and made sure that I understood what was going on.

820
00:39:52,006 --> 00:39:54,566
Speaker 2: I can remember you telling me that your view before

821
00:39:54,626 --> 00:39:56,226
Speaker 2: was you didn't even want to look at your bank

822
00:39:56,286 --> 00:39:57,596
Speaker 2: accounts I knew you.

823
00:39:57,556 --> 00:39:59,256
Speaker 4: Were going to bring that up. And I have to

824
00:39:59,296 --> 00:40:02,136
Speaker 4: tell you, Michael, I looked at my bank account for

825
00:40:02,156 --> 00:40:05,816
Speaker 4: the first time about two days ago, full on the

826
00:40:05,836 --> 00:40:08,336
Speaker 4: computer screen in front of me in all its glory.

827
00:40:08,476 --> 00:40:10,756
Speaker 4: I saw my balance and, you know, it wasn't as

828
00:40:10,816 --> 00:40:13,166
Speaker 4: bad as I envisioned. It wasn't as good as I

829
00:40:13,206 --> 00:40:15,466
Speaker 4: wished it would be, but it was an important step

830
00:40:15,866 --> 00:40:19,466
Speaker 4: in handling my finances is like actually having a realistic

831
00:40:19,506 --> 00:40:20,346
Speaker 4: picture of what's in there.

832
00:40:20,366 --> 00:40:21,946
Speaker 2: No, it's sort of like if you're going to get

833
00:40:21,986 --> 00:40:23,786
Speaker 2: in shape, you need to have a scale to weigh

834
00:40:23,806 --> 00:40:24,786
Speaker 2: yourself on.

835
00:40:24,786 --> 00:40:24,866
Speaker 11: 100%.

836
00:40:24,866 --> 00:40:25,406
Speaker 1: Yeah.

837
00:40:25,466 --> 00:40:28,586
Speaker 4: It's going to help just having the conversations, like having

838
00:40:28,646 --> 00:40:31,686
Speaker 4: a set time as a couple for myself and my

839
00:40:31,726 --> 00:40:34,086
Speaker 4: husband to sit down and say, okay, where are we

840
00:40:34,106 --> 00:40:37,026
Speaker 4: with finances? What did we spend this month? What unexpected

841
00:40:37,046 --> 00:40:39,456
Speaker 4: things came up? You know, how are we looking for

842
00:40:39,506 --> 00:40:41,976
Speaker 4: next month? And what are we putting toward our, you know,

843
00:40:42,076 --> 00:40:46,996
Speaker 4: our goals? It's going to help just not our, just

844
00:40:47,016 --> 00:40:49,076
Speaker 4: not even like, you know, reach our goals, but it's

845
00:40:49,096 --> 00:40:51,706
Speaker 4: going to help our relationship, my husband and I, because

846
00:40:51,736 --> 00:40:54,686
Speaker 4: money is a definite, you know, source of stress.

847
00:40:55,296 --> 00:40:57,256
Speaker 2: I mean, is there a couple where that's not true?

848
00:40:57,556 --> 00:40:58,076
Speaker 11: No.

849
00:41:04,156 --> 00:41:06,536
Speaker 2: There's no need here to recount how many thousands of

850
00:41:06,596 --> 00:41:09,736
Speaker 2: dollars she saved herself by having herself coached, or how

851
00:41:09,776 --> 00:41:13,016
Speaker 2: she's now paying 6% instead of 26% on her credit

852
00:41:13,056 --> 00:41:15,626
Speaker 2: card debts, or how she and her husband expect to

853
00:41:15,666 --> 00:41:18,786
Speaker 2: be entirely debt-free inside of a year. But let's just

854
00:41:18,846 --> 00:41:22,406
Speaker 2: consider the broader effects this coach has had. This person

855
00:41:22,426 --> 00:41:27,816
Speaker 2: who's on her side encouraging her best self. Has it

856
00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:30,566
Speaker 2: changed the kind of tone of the conversation around money

857
00:41:30,606 --> 00:41:32,036
Speaker 2: when you and your husband sit down and talk about it?

858
00:41:32,606 --> 00:41:36,286
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was all very emotionally charged before. And now,

859
00:41:36,786 --> 00:41:39,726
Speaker 4: you know, he's really taken to, okay, I'm laying everything

860
00:41:39,786 --> 00:41:41,506
Speaker 4: out on a spreadsheet and I, you know, I put

861
00:41:41,546 --> 00:41:42,986
Speaker 4: in all this and I did all this and come

862
00:41:43,026 --> 00:41:46,686
Speaker 4: look and let me show you. So we're much more

863
00:41:46,726 --> 00:41:48,686
Speaker 4: of a team and much more on the same page.

864
00:41:48,816 --> 00:41:51,196
Speaker 4: And I think we're excited about the next couple of years.

865
00:41:53,246 --> 00:41:55,786
Speaker 2: You can hear it too, right? The sound of her

866
00:41:55,846 --> 00:41:59,436
Speaker 2: voice has changed. All the other times I'd spoken with her,

867
00:41:59,836 --> 00:42:02,716
Speaker 2: I could almost hear her teeth grinding. I could hear

868
00:42:02,756 --> 00:42:05,256
Speaker 2: her stress and the way it was killing the pleasure

869
00:42:05,316 --> 00:42:08,636
Speaker 2: she naturally took in life. I didn't hear that anymore.

870
00:42:09,656 --> 00:42:13,516
Speaker 2: I found Katie Hyland in quarantine in New Rochelle, New York,

871
00:42:13,996 --> 00:42:16,236
Speaker 2: at the early center of what was shaping up to

872
00:42:16,256 --> 00:42:21,056
Speaker 2: be the greatest calamity in modern American history. But she

873
00:42:21,136 --> 00:42:25,736
Speaker 2: sounded almost hopeful. You know what's funny is that you

874
00:42:25,816 --> 00:42:29,276
Speaker 2: are now sitting at like one of the hot spots

875
00:42:29,336 --> 00:42:33,956
Speaker 2: of the American pandemic. And you sound so much.

876
00:42:33,856 --> 00:42:36,136
Speaker 12: Happier than you did a year ago.

877
00:42:36,856 --> 00:42:37,146
Speaker 11: I know.

878
00:42:37,166 --> 00:42:39,086
Speaker 4: The irony in everything is.

879
00:42:39,106 --> 00:42:39,826
Speaker 7: You sound happy.

880
00:42:40,486 --> 00:42:41,806
Speaker 11: Well, I feel confident.

881
00:42:41,826 --> 00:42:43,886
Speaker 4: You know, I feel like, wow, like I can really

882
00:42:43,986 --> 00:42:47,206
Speaker 4: start to do things. And I can really... To think that,

883
00:42:47,246 --> 00:42:49,286
Speaker 4: you know, we set a goal of trying to buy

884
00:42:49,346 --> 00:42:50,626
Speaker 4: a house by the summer of 2023.

885
00:42:50,606 --> 00:42:54,096
Speaker 1: And that's... Amazing.

886
00:43:01,166 --> 00:43:04,766
Speaker 2: I'm Michael Lewis. Thanks for listening to Against the Rules.

887
00:43:05,526 --> 00:43:08,146
Speaker 2: Against the Rules is brought to you by Pushkin Industries.

888
00:43:08,746 --> 00:43:12,486
Speaker 2: The show's produced by Audrey Dilling and Catherine Giraudoux with

889
00:43:12,546 --> 00:43:16,916
Speaker 2: research assistance from Lydia Jean Cott and Zui Nguyen. Our

890
00:43:17,026 --> 00:43:21,116
Speaker 2: editor is Julia Barton. Mia Lobel is our executive producer.

891
00:43:21,816 --> 00:43:25,376
Speaker 2: Our theme was composed by Nick Bertel with additional scoring

892
00:43:25,416 --> 00:43:30,026
Speaker 2: by Stellwagen Symphonette. We got fact-checked by Beth Johnson. Our

893
00:43:30,086 --> 00:43:33,186
Speaker 2: show was recorded by Topher Ruth and Trey Schiltz at

894
00:43:33,246 --> 00:43:38,066
Speaker 2: Northgate Studios in Berkeley and James Ward at Live Oak Studio.

895
00:43:39,306 --> 00:43:44,836
Speaker 2: As always, thanks to Pushkin's founders, Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell.

896
00:43:54,626 --> 00:43:56,396
Speaker 2: How often do you go on to GoFundMe and give

897
00:43:56,436 --> 00:43:57,236
Speaker 2: money to strangers?

898
00:43:57,616 --> 00:43:59,176
Speaker 9: My wife and I were just driving down the road

899
00:43:59,236 --> 00:44:01,216
Speaker 9: and it just seemed like the right thing to do.

900
00:44:01,936 --> 00:44:05,696
Speaker 9: But I don't typically go into GoFundMe and donate to strangers.

901
00:44:05,736 --> 00:44:08,476
Speaker 9: I think it's more when something speaks to me and

902
00:44:08,506 --> 00:44:10,926
Speaker 9: it's something that you can easily cover, you just go

903
00:44:10,946 --> 00:44:12,946
Speaker 9: ahead and do it. It's always how I've been taught.

904
00:44:13,626 --> 00:44:16,366
Speaker 2: This is Amit Kakkar, the guy who made the last

905
00:44:16,406 --> 00:44:19,446
Speaker 2: donation to the fund that paid off Katie Highland's student loans.

906
00:44:19,946 --> 00:44:21,586
Speaker 2: He turns out to be a real estate agent in

907
00:44:21,646 --> 00:44:24,556
Speaker 2: suburban D.C., Makes me wish I wanted to buy a house.

908
00:44:25,116 --> 00:44:27,296
Speaker 2: So whose idea was it, yours or your wife's, to

909
00:44:27,336 --> 00:44:30,516
Speaker 2: go and find the GoFundMe page and finish off the campaign?

910
00:44:30,816 --> 00:44:34,376
Speaker 9: It was me. But she obviously is used to me

911
00:44:34,416 --> 00:44:38,086
Speaker 9: doing stuff like that and kind of co-signs it. But

912
00:44:38,126 --> 00:44:40,346
Speaker 9: as soon as it was over and I heard about

913
00:44:40,366 --> 00:44:43,206
Speaker 9: the GoFundMe, I was intrigued to see where it was at.

914
00:44:43,386 --> 00:44:46,546
Speaker 9: And when I saw the level, it was a no-brainer

915
00:44:46,606 --> 00:44:47,686
Speaker 9: to finish it off.

916
00:45:00,596 --> 00:45:02,516
Speaker 2: Gavin usually showed up in the middle of the day.

917
00:45:02,656 --> 00:45:05,576
Speaker 2: He was always late to work with some updated plan

918
00:45:05,676 --> 00:45:09,656
Speaker 2: to cut the IRS workforce. The origin of these plans

919
00:45:09,716 --> 00:45:12,496
Speaker 2: remained a mystery, but every time he had a new one,

920
00:45:12,876 --> 00:45:15,176
Speaker 2: he sent it to all the department heads and asked

921
00:45:15,196 --> 00:45:18,756
Speaker 2: them to scheme out how, say, they'd survive with half

922
00:45:18,796 --> 00:45:24,136
Speaker 2: their staff. Late one afternoon, a senior IRS official discovered

923
00:45:24,196 --> 00:45:28,236
Speaker 2: Gavin alone in a room studying the IRS org chart

924
00:45:29,586 --> 00:45:31,756
Speaker 2: He was going through all the little boxes and asking,

925
00:45:32,206 --> 00:45:34,456
Speaker 2: what do you think this office does, and do you

926
00:45:34,476 --> 00:45:37,236
Speaker 2: think we need an office like this? I have this

927
00:45:37,296 --> 00:45:39,596
Speaker 2: memo due, and I have to come up with an answer.

928
00:45:40,616 --> 00:45:42,396
Speaker 2: I could see the stress he was under. He was

929
00:45:42,436 --> 00:45:44,036
Speaker 2: kind of freaking out. He was like, I have a

930
00:45:44,096 --> 00:45:46,426
Speaker 2: hard engineering problem to solve, and I'm trying.

931
00:45:46,276 --> 00:45:46,746
Speaker 3: To solve it.

932
00:45:47,706 --> 00:45:51,126
Speaker 2: The day the IRS official watched him toil away, Gavin

933
00:45:51,146 --> 00:45:56,006
Speaker 2: eventually settled on the little org chart box labeled Communications

934
00:45:56,386 --> 00:46:01,206
Speaker 2: and Liaisons. He asked, what's this, recalled the official. All

935
00:46:01,226 --> 00:46:03,666
Speaker 2: he knew was the name. The office dealt with all

936
00:46:03,706 --> 00:46:08,136
Speaker 2: congressional inquiries, media requests, and FOIA requests, and basically every

937
00:46:08,196 --> 00:46:11,236
Speaker 2: demand for information from the IRS by the outside world.

938
00:46:12,176 --> 00:46:15,436
Speaker 2: Having learned no more than its name, Gavin called the

939
00:46:15,456 --> 00:46:18,336
Speaker 2: person in charge of the Office of Communications and Liaison,

940
00:46:18,716 --> 00:46:21,776
Speaker 2: Jody Reynolds, and told her that she needed to fire

941
00:46:21,876 --> 00:46:27,166
Speaker 2: her entire 350-person staff. Until Gavin started spitballing, it was

942
00:46:27,226 --> 00:46:30,786
Speaker 2: unclear what any day's agenda might be. I figured out

943
00:46:30,846 --> 00:46:34,146
Speaker 2: something important about the IRS, he now said, on March 3rd.

944
00:46:35,026 --> 00:46:40,096
Speaker 2: He paused for effect. Oh no, thought Kathleen. Every agency

945
00:46:40,156 --> 00:46:44,996
Speaker 2: has a superpower, said Gavin. The IRS's superpower is data.

946
00:46:46,216 --> 00:46:48,556
Speaker 2: Everyone in the agency knew that its data was valuable.

947
00:46:49,236 --> 00:46:51,586
Speaker 2: That was the reason for the strict laws that prevented

948
00:46:51,626 --> 00:46:55,236
Speaker 2: it from being exploited for profit or political gain. He

949
00:46:55,296 --> 00:46:57,256
Speaker 2: said this in a way that he expected everyone to

950
00:46:57,316 --> 00:47:00,056
Speaker 2: clap when he was done, said Kathleen. No one said

951
00:47:00,076 --> 00:47:03,986
Speaker 2: a word. The people around the table, a group that

952
00:47:04,046 --> 00:47:07,046
Speaker 2: included a woman who had worked at the IRS for

953
00:47:07,046 --> 00:47:10,486
Speaker 2: 54 years, or 53 years and 50 weeks longer than

954
00:47:10,526 --> 00:47:15,106
Speaker 2: Gavin Kleiger, looked down or away. As Kathleen's fear had

955
00:47:15,146 --> 00:47:20,256
Speaker 2: turned to pity, her pity now turned to something else. Embarrassment.

956
00:47:21,136 --> 00:47:25,826
Speaker 2: She felt embarrassed for Gavin Kleiger. but now it was

957
00:47:25,886 --> 00:47:30,126
Speaker 2: clear what the meeting was about. Gavin wanted, in his words,

958
00:47:30,406 --> 00:47:35,296
Speaker 2: to explore how we can share our data with other agencies. Interestingly,

959
00:47:35,646 --> 00:47:39,996
Speaker 2: he never once mentioned ICE or DHS. Instead, that week,

960
00:47:40,556 --> 00:47:43,356
Speaker 2: he sought to share data with himself by trying to

961
00:47:43,516 --> 00:47:48,116
Speaker 2: access files detailing IRS contracts with outside consultants that also

962
00:47:48,156 --> 00:47:53,806
Speaker 2: contained taxpayer information. Kathleen denied him access. The following Monday,

963
00:47:53,886 --> 00:47:57,306
Speaker 2: she received a cryptic text from a senior IRS official.

964
00:47:58,526 --> 00:48:01,006
Speaker 2: I'm going to call your cell, but don't answer, he read.

965
00:48:01,966 --> 00:48:05,126
Speaker 2: Her phone rang, and she dutifully stared at it. Then

966
00:48:05,186 --> 00:48:08,416
Speaker 2: came the second text. Gavin is asking where your office

967
00:48:08,536 --> 00:48:10,656
Speaker 2: is and is now trying to find you to fire

968
00:48:10,716 --> 00:48:13,716
Speaker 2: you because he says that you're the blocker.

969
00:48:14,836 --> 00:48:15,396
Speaker 3: The blocker.

970
00:48:16,236 --> 00:48:19,656
Speaker 2: It was one of the Muskrat's favorite terms. Elon used

971
00:48:19,696 --> 00:48:22,656
Speaker 2: it all the time. The blocker was the person who

972
00:48:22,716 --> 00:48:26,926
Speaker 2: didn't understand progress. The person without vision. The person who

973
00:48:26,966 --> 00:48:29,126
Speaker 2: could not see beyond the way things were to the

974
00:48:29,166 --> 00:48:31,466
Speaker 2: way they ought to be. The person who didn't want

975
00:48:31,486 --> 00:48:34,446
Speaker 2: to live on Mars, or possibly even care if anyone

976
00:48:34,486 --> 00:48:38,926
Speaker 2: ever got there. The inferior person. Tracy had been a blocker.

977
00:48:39,586 --> 00:48:42,316
Speaker 2: Find the blockers between us and what we want, Elon

978
00:48:42,356 --> 00:48:46,076
Speaker 2: told his young followers. Find the blockers and eliminate them.

979
00:48:47,036 --> 00:48:51,316
Speaker 2: Maybe more than anything else, Doge wanted the data. Kathleen

980
00:48:51,356 --> 00:48:55,076
Speaker 2: was the person blocking them from getting it. The IRS

981
00:48:55,116 --> 00:48:58,356
Speaker 2: executive offices where Gavin was stationed were on the third floor.

982
00:48:59,216 --> 00:49:01,896
Speaker 2: Kathleen's office was in a corner of the seventh floor,

983
00:49:02,456 --> 00:49:04,856
Speaker 2: where it was quieter and she could get a lot done.

984
00:49:05,726 --> 00:49:08,926
Speaker 2: Her office windows had been bomb-proofed and sealed shut after

985
00:49:08,966 --> 00:49:12,166
Speaker 2: the 9-11 attacks, and so she couldn't access the terrace,

986
00:49:12,766 --> 00:49:15,266
Speaker 2: but she still had a view, which she loved, of

987
00:49:15,286 --> 00:49:19,516
Speaker 2: the Capitol Dome. To the standard-issued KGB furniture, she'd added

988
00:49:19,636 --> 00:49:22,996
Speaker 2: two small gold round end tables she'd found in her parents'

989
00:49:23,056 --> 00:49:27,786
Speaker 2: garage back in 2020, right after her mom died. One

990
00:49:27,826 --> 00:49:31,076
Speaker 2: wall had her daughter's sketch and another a poster with

991
00:49:31,236 --> 00:49:35,196
Speaker 2: Al Capone's mugshot under the words, It took an accountant

992
00:49:35,296 --> 00:49:38,356
Speaker 2: to catch Al Capone. The mob boss had finally been

993
00:49:38,376 --> 00:49:41,606
Speaker 2: sent to jail for tax evasion. Otherwise, the office was

994
00:49:41,666 --> 00:49:45,426
Speaker 2: pretty spare. A small coffee station and some file cabinets

995
00:49:45,526 --> 00:49:48,496
Speaker 2: and in one corner an ancient metal box that that

996
00:49:48,536 --> 00:49:52,536
Speaker 2: appeared to predate the building. But inside were keys to

997
00:49:52,656 --> 00:49:56,876
Speaker 2: every office in her department. Removing one, she walked down

998
00:49:56,896 --> 00:50:00,386
Speaker 2: the hall to a small conference room. She entered, locked

999
00:50:00,406 --> 00:50:03,486
Speaker 2: the door behind her, and switched off the lights. There

1000
00:50:03,546 --> 00:50:07,006
Speaker 2: she sat, in the dark, listening for the squeak of

1001
00:50:07,086 --> 00:50:11,946
Speaker 2: Nike sneakers on the terrazzo hallway. I said, I'm not

1002
00:50:12,006 --> 00:50:12,966
Speaker 2: getting fired today.