1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:25,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to season two of Against the Rules. I'm 2 00:00:25,356 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis. Before we get to where we're going, I 3 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:31,276 Speaker 1: want to go back for a moment to where we've 4 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: been a little backstory from season one. The story involves 5 00:00:37,316 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: a woman named Katie Highland. She's in her late thirties, 6 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:44,036 Speaker 1: a public school teacher, wife, mother of two small children. 7 00:00:44,516 --> 00:00:47,676 Speaker 1: Her entire adult life, she'd been made miserable by student 8 00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:50,156 Speaker 1: loans she'd taken out when she was eighteen years old. 9 00:00:50,476 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: I don't see any payoff, and it just keeps getting 10 00:00:53,316 --> 00:00:59,716 Speaker 1: harder and harder, and that's soul crushing her state of mind. Well, 11 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: even her children could see it wasn't good. It might 12 00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:07,156 Speaker 1: be actually kind of painful for her, because all of 13 00:01:07,196 --> 00:01:12,996 Speaker 1: this counts with a bell and getting something changed to 14 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:17,796 Speaker 1: another thing that's the same, but changing to it. I 15 00:01:17,876 --> 00:01:23,516 Speaker 1: love you if you well, it does feel kind of painful, 16 00:01:23,596 --> 00:01:26,676 Speaker 1: right mommy. Yeah. A lot of the papers, Yeah there, 17 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:28,676 Speaker 1: it's a lot of paperwork. It's a lot of and 18 00:01:28,756 --> 00:01:34,236 Speaker 1: a lot of pain. Yea for doing it. This killed 19 00:01:34,236 --> 00:01:40,236 Speaker 1: me to hear, but especially this next part. It is 20 00:01:40,596 --> 00:01:45,796 Speaker 1: very good to be thoughtful for everybody, but the person 21 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:51,636 Speaker 1: who's the most best person on earth is this lady 22 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 1: right there, This lady Jackson's mom, Katie Highland, shouldn't have 23 00:01:58,196 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: owed anybody a dime. That was the point of the story. 24 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:05,716 Speaker 1: Katie had qualified years ago for a program that Congress 25 00:02:05,756 --> 00:02:09,436 Speaker 1: created to forgive the student loans of public servants, but 26 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:12,236 Speaker 1: her student loan servicer made money offer only as long 27 00:02:12,276 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 1: as she still owed the money, and they had more 28 00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:16,916 Speaker 1: or less tricked her to keep her in debt. I 29 00:02:17,036 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: like to try to always find the good in people, 30 00:02:19,236 --> 00:02:22,956 Speaker 1: and when you have experiences like my experience, you get 31 00:02:22,996 --> 00:02:25,916 Speaker 1: discouraged and you start to think that people aren't as 32 00:02:25,956 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 1: good as you once thought they were. Sometimes you stumble 33 00:02:34,916 --> 00:02:36,756 Speaker 1: onto a story and you can't get it out of 34 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: your head. Katie Hyland had played by the rules, made 35 00:02:40,316 --> 00:02:43,396 Speaker 1: all her loan payments, thrown herself into being a good 36 00:02:43,396 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: mother and a great teacher, and she'd been abused by 37 00:02:46,276 --> 00:02:48,876 Speaker 1: the company that was meant to help her navigate her finances, 38 00:02:51,996 --> 00:02:55,836 Speaker 1: and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the one financial referee 39 00:02:55,876 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 1: that might have stepped in to help her, was doing 40 00:02:57,956 --> 00:03:01,556 Speaker 1: nothing to help. So we decided to help on the 41 00:03:01,596 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 1: website go fund me to try to pay off Katie's 42 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: student loans. When I looked at the page and I 43 00:03:10,956 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 1: think I saw at that time that it was like 44 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:16,916 Speaker 1: eleven thousand dollars. I was completely blown away. I was 45 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:19,276 Speaker 1: at my son's baseball game. I remember I showed my mom. 46 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 1: We were like freaking out about it and just reading 47 00:03:23,756 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: people's responses and the encouraging words and like where people 48 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:33,396 Speaker 1: were from. There were people from Ireland, there were people 49 00:03:33,396 --> 00:03:36,756 Speaker 1: from England. We started this campaign two months after the 50 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:40,276 Speaker 1: show originally aired, so after most people had listened to it. 51 00:03:40,636 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 1: Even then, it took you our listeners less than three 52 00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:47,276 Speaker 1: months to pay off fifty thousand dollars, and I think 53 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:51,076 Speaker 1: the last person that donated donated like enough to like 54 00:03:51,196 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 1: hit it. And it was just so I was like, 55 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,356 Speaker 1: oh my god, Mom, like it happened. We did it, 56 00:03:56,676 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: and I can't even tell it's because you said to 57 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:00,316 Speaker 1: me in one email, like just pay it forward or 58 00:04:00,476 --> 00:04:02,436 Speaker 1: just do it for someone else. And every go fund 59 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:04,596 Speaker 1: made campaign that I see, I make it a point 60 00:04:04,716 --> 00:04:07,956 Speaker 1: to do the same, even if it's ten twenty whatever 61 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:10,476 Speaker 1: I can do that. Don't you dare go get into 62 00:04:10,556 --> 00:04:16,596 Speaker 1: debt again. I thought that would be the end of 63 00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:18,676 Speaker 1: the story, but there was a lot more to it. 64 00:04:19,916 --> 00:04:22,356 Speaker 1: Of course there was more to it. I mean, Katie 65 00:04:22,356 --> 00:04:24,516 Speaker 1: had told us that financial stress had caused her to 66 00:04:24,516 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: grind her teeth at night, and she started losing her teeth. 67 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 1: She used to smile all the time, Now she avoided smiling, 68 00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:35,396 Speaker 1: and along the way she'd picked up another debt problem. Already, 69 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:37,596 Speaker 1: I'm on a payment plan with a dentist like five 70 00:04:37,676 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 1: hundred dollars a week. I've spent like thirty thousand dollars. 71 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,276 Speaker 1: I've lost a bunch of teeth through the grinding and 72 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:46,796 Speaker 1: all of that. That part has been really difficult. So 73 00:04:46,836 --> 00:04:49,156 Speaker 1: I still have a lot, you know, remaining with that. 74 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:50,796 Speaker 1: It's still a lot to pay off, still a lot 75 00:04:50,836 --> 00:04:53,356 Speaker 1: of dental work to get done. So you do have 76 00:04:53,436 --> 00:04:56,636 Speaker 1: credit card debt? Yeah, I have credit card. Any big 77 00:04:56,636 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 1: purchases that I've had to make, I've put on credit cards. 78 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:02,956 Speaker 1: Unless you're a very lucky kind of American, you may 79 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:06,636 Speaker 1: recognize yourself here. You try to do prudent things to 80 00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 1: save money, well, like drop the vision card ridge on 81 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: your health insurance. Then suddenly your daughter needs glasses. That 82 00:05:14,756 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 1: was the kind of thing that Katie and her husband 83 00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 1: did that wound up biting them. They now have five 84 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:23,356 Speaker 1: credit cards between them, all charging high interest rates, even 85 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:26,956 Speaker 1: though their credit score is great. Personally, I just want 86 00:05:26,956 --> 00:05:29,316 Speaker 1: to not be scared to look at my bank account. 87 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 1: I don't think I've looked at my bank account in years, 88 00:05:32,196 --> 00:05:35,156 Speaker 1: to be honest. I just, yeah, that's not a good 89 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:38,996 Speaker 1: I know that's not healthy, but I don't know why. 90 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:42,076 Speaker 1: It's just like terrifies me. I'm I'm not sure why. 91 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: The credit card industry already had her by the throat. 92 00:05:45,996 --> 00:05:48,836 Speaker 1: She was ashamed of it, and she had no sense 93 00:05:48,916 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 1: that anyone would help this time. Well, so here's my goal. 94 00:05:55,556 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: My goal season one, the goal was to get rid 95 00:05:57,436 --> 00:05:59,596 Speaker 1: of your student debt. In season two as they restore 96 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 1: your smile. So that's what we're gonna try to do, 97 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:10,876 Speaker 1: all right, Okay, thanks Michael. I'm Michael Lewis, and this 98 00:06:11,196 --> 00:06:16,636 Speaker 1: is against the rules. Last season was about referees, the 99 00:06:16,676 --> 00:06:20,636 Speaker 1: attack on our societies, WHEREFS is obviously a big problem. 100 00:06:20,676 --> 00:06:24,356 Speaker 1: This season is about coaches. Yeah, what are you doing 101 00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:27,956 Speaker 1: and their rise in American life? You need to stop 102 00:06:28,036 --> 00:06:30,076 Speaker 1: being a lazy piece of shit and work for your 103 00:06:30,076 --> 00:06:32,836 Speaker 1: picture or I'm going to kick your ass. Got it. 104 00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:36,116 Speaker 1: It wasn't that long ago the coaches were confined to sports. 105 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:39,156 Speaker 1: Now they're everywhere. We're going to refocus like we're training 106 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:41,796 Speaker 1: a puppy, if we're going to train your mind like 107 00:06:42,036 --> 00:06:44,676 Speaker 1: we train a puppy. They're people who call themselves life 108 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:47,436 Speaker 1: coaches and other people who call themselves death coaches. I 109 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:50,676 Speaker 1: am here to guide you and making sure you grow 110 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:53,916 Speaker 1: as a person. Every big time corporate boss has an 111 00:06:53,956 --> 00:06:57,116 Speaker 1: executive coach, but now so do new nbas starting out 112 00:06:57,116 --> 00:07:00,196 Speaker 1: at Wall Street banks and consulting firms. These are super 113 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: smart people who maybe just haven't heard the right strategies. 114 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 1: You can hire a coach to improve your online dating 115 00:07:07,036 --> 00:07:11,476 Speaker 1: performance or your career. It's a saying which is therapy 116 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:13,796 Speaker 1: is a path of tears and coaching is the path 117 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:17,116 Speaker 1: of lafta. And that's all great, but coaching is also 118 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:20,916 Speaker 1: becoming an odd source of unfairness. Just look around and 119 00:07:20,996 --> 00:07:23,956 Speaker 1: ask yourself who gets good coaching and who doesn't. That 120 00:07:24,116 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 1: guy would never have gotten into Yale, but this guy 121 00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:28,796 Speaker 1: who got all this coaching did get into Yale. It 122 00:07:28,836 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 1: just seems like anyone who can answer these questions has 123 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 1: got to be coached. Oh my god, we're loving this 124 00:07:34,756 --> 00:07:50,196 Speaker 1: fucking team. Rice money is a great place to ask 125 00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 1: this question about coaching and fairness. But first you have 126 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 1: to stop thinking of finance as a business and start 127 00:07:56,876 --> 00:08:00,236 Speaker 1: thinking of it as a competitive sport. When eighteen year 128 00:08:00,276 --> 00:08:03,436 Speaker 1: old Katie Highland took out her student loans and twenty 129 00:08:03,516 --> 00:08:06,596 Speaker 1: something year old Katie started using credit cards, she was 130 00:08:06,636 --> 00:08:09,596 Speaker 1: basically walking into an arena alone with a target on 131 00:08:09,636 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 1: her back. The giant company should be facing off against 132 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 1: knew more about her game than she did. That's how 133 00:08:15,636 --> 00:08:19,476 Speaker 1: they made their money from her weaknesses. You can always 134 00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:27,476 Speaker 1: make more money exploiting people's irrationalities then you can by 135 00:08:27,876 --> 00:08:32,156 Speaker 1: fixing them. Richard Taylor winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. 136 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: He spent his career trying to understand the ways that 137 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:37,836 Speaker 1: people don't act in their own self interest. And one 138 00:08:37,876 --> 00:08:41,036 Speaker 1: big thing his work suggests is that ordinary people need 139 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 1: coaching far more than they know. Let's think about the 140 00:08:45,116 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: people who get the most coaching. Well, professional athletes would 141 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 1: be one. Take Roger Federer. He's probably got ten guys, 142 00:08:55,876 --> 00:09:02,396 Speaker 1: coaches and physical trainers. So here's Roger feder one of 143 00:09:02,436 --> 00:09:05,996 Speaker 1: the greatest athletes in the world, and he has ten coaches. 144 00:09:06,996 --> 00:09:14,076 Speaker 1: Who else? Actors Meryl Streep has a director helping her 145 00:09:14,276 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 1: act now, God knows, Yeah, she doesn't need it, right, 146 00:09:19,116 --> 00:09:23,076 Speaker 1: Brad Pitt, You know, does he really need help? But 147 00:09:23,356 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 1: the richest, best performing people in the world have the 148 00:09:28,076 --> 00:09:34,796 Speaker 1: most coaching. And who's coaching the uber driver on what 149 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:39,156 Speaker 1: hours to drive and when you should go to the 150 00:09:39,196 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 1: airport and if you get a ride to the airport, 151 00:09:42,996 --> 00:09:48,556 Speaker 1: should you wait in line or immediately leave? So coaching 152 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:51,236 Speaker 1: just ends up making the rich richer. Yeah, it's one 153 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 1: of the many factors that contribute to this curve. We've 154 00:09:56,236 --> 00:10:01,636 Speaker 1: all seen about the one percent or the point or 155 00:10:01,716 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 1: one percent share of the economy. No one's coaching the 156 00:10:07,156 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: tens of millions of Americans on the wrong end of 157 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:15,996 Speaker 1: consumer finance. No one even seems interested. I've tried, unsuccessfully 158 00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:19,036 Speaker 1: to get somebody to create what I call the good bank. 159 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:26,396 Speaker 1: With this good bank look like, well, so it would 160 00:10:26,436 --> 00:10:31,756 Speaker 1: warn you when you're about to overdraw your credit card, 161 00:10:32,956 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: rather than wait until the end of the day when 162 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 1: you've swiped five times and they charge you twenty five 163 00:10:40,516 --> 00:10:44,276 Speaker 1: dollars penalty for each swipe, twenty five bucks a swipe. 164 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:47,596 Speaker 1: It's supposed to scare you from overdrawing your account, but 165 00:10:47,716 --> 00:10:51,316 Speaker 1: you only get the warning after it's too late. I mean, 166 00:10:51,356 --> 00:10:53,556 Speaker 1: there's a reason for this. It's a subtle form of 167 00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:56,196 Speaker 1: coaching that makes the banks a lot of money. No, 168 00:10:56,356 --> 00:10:59,636 Speaker 1: the problem is people pay bad coaches and not good coaches. Right, 169 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: it's another thing, and they pay because they don't see 170 00:11:03,956 --> 00:11:07,076 Speaker 1: the charge. Right. Trip to bad coaching is never show 171 00:11:07,156 --> 00:11:09,956 Speaker 1: the bill, Yeah, exactly. The problem good coaching is you 172 00:11:09,996 --> 00:11:13,156 Speaker 1: have to share the bill. It goes something like this, right, So, 173 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:15,516 Speaker 1: at the start of the month, you're paid your paycheck. 174 00:11:15,796 --> 00:11:19,916 Speaker 1: This is angela strange venture capitalists and kindoisseur of how 175 00:11:19,956 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 1: the financial sector exploits human nature. And so you send 176 00:11:22,996 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 1: your rent check out and you don't see in your 177 00:11:25,636 --> 00:11:28,596 Speaker 1: bank account that check is cleared, probably for a few days. 178 00:11:28,676 --> 00:11:30,836 Speaker 1: You pay a bunch of other bills. You know that 179 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: those are gonna hit as costs in your bank account, 180 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:36,836 Speaker 1: but that also hasn't cleared. Now you're like, well, can 181 00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:40,156 Speaker 1: I pay this bill? I think so, But you're doing 182 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:43,356 Speaker 1: some mental math around the checks that you have in 183 00:11:43,396 --> 00:11:46,396 Speaker 1: the air, like you just don't have a sense of 184 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,956 Speaker 1: what is your real time cash position. And then, oh, 185 00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:52,196 Speaker 1: by the way, if you screw it up, it's a 186 00:11:52,276 --> 00:11:55,556 Speaker 1: thirty five dollars overdraft feach time. Right, there were thirty 187 00:11:55,556 --> 00:11:58,836 Speaker 1: four billion dollars in overdraft fees paid last year, again 188 00:11:58,956 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: reofiting from people screwing up. It's huge, it's huge. It's huge. Wait, wait, 189 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:06,636 Speaker 1: thirty four billion dollars in overdraft fees yep is the 190 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 1: typical penalty thirty five bucks. Yeah, it's clem up. It 191 00:12:10,156 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 1: used to be twenty five about ten years ago. So 192 00:12:13,316 --> 00:12:15,636 Speaker 1: that means that there are a billion instances of this 193 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:18,836 Speaker 1: a year, yes, and they tend to be concentrated where 194 00:12:18,876 --> 00:12:21,676 Speaker 1: the people they get hit with overdraft get hit a lot. 195 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 1: Thirty four billion dollars in overdraft fees is really just 196 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 1: the start. There's more than one hundred billion in credit 197 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:31,836 Speaker 1: card late payment fees and interest charged each year. And 198 00:12:31,876 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 1: then there's the entire credit card industry, which thrives on 199 00:12:35,236 --> 00:12:38,636 Speaker 1: the mistakes people make playing the money game. There is 200 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:42,316 Speaker 1: now over one trillion dollars of credit card debt in 201 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 1: the US. People who have this debt it's been about 202 00:12:45,156 --> 00:12:47,636 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars. They tend to have it across three 203 00:12:47,636 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: to four different cards. So let's say you're like, Okay, 204 00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:51,716 Speaker 1: I don't want to be in credit card debt. I 205 00:12:51,716 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: need to get out of credit card debt just going 206 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:57,476 Speaker 1: through what is that process? You have debt across three 207 00:12:57,516 --> 00:13:01,156 Speaker 1: to four different cards. They likely charge different rates, they 208 00:13:01,156 --> 00:13:04,116 Speaker 1: have different due dates. So do you pay off the 209 00:13:04,236 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: highest rate card first? Oh? By the way, like what 210 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: is the highest rate card? It's just a very complicated 211 00:13:09,796 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: mess to get your way out of. Angela wondered why 212 00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: no one had tried to help people who had gotten 213 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:18,636 Speaker 1: into this mess. Why no one had, say, tried to 214 00:13:18,676 --> 00:13:21,796 Speaker 1: create a money coaching business, the same way that Richard 215 00:13:21,796 --> 00:13:24,076 Speaker 1: Thaylor wondered, why no one had even tried to create 216 00:13:24,076 --> 00:13:27,756 Speaker 1: a good bank. Then she realized the sort of people 217 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: with the ability to coach other people about money, or 218 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 1: to finance a company to coach other people about money. 219 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:38,196 Speaker 1: Those people already had money. People who didn't have money 220 00:13:38,396 --> 00:13:41,436 Speaker 1: were like Martians to them. Like your investment banker is 221 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:44,556 Speaker 1: not the person who grew up on food stamps, right, 222 00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 1: And he's not the person who's got five different credit 223 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:49,316 Speaker 1: cards maxed out and is paying thirty percent interest rate 224 00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 1: to some bank. Another problem Angela saw trust Americans had 225 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:56,916 Speaker 1: been screwed by consumer finance for so long that they 226 00:13:56,916 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 1: were likely to be wary when some companies sprung up 227 00:13:59,756 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 1: claiming it was actually going to be on their side, 228 00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:05,196 Speaker 1: like it takes time as an athlete or as anything 229 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 1: to build trust with your coach, until they'll start by 230 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: making these suggestions and you might follow them, you might 231 00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 1: not follow them. And you know, if they're a good 232 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: coach and they know you really well, then you'll notice 233 00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 1: that over time, as you take more of their suggestions, 234 00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:27,396 Speaker 1: you tend to perform better. The explosion of coaching, it's 235 00:14:27,436 --> 00:14:30,756 Speaker 1: related to the war on referees. It's what happens when 236 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: more and more of life feels like a brutal competitive sport. 237 00:14:34,836 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: The scarier it is to lose, the more people scramble 238 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 1: to find an edge. That's what a coach offers, an edge. 239 00:14:43,036 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 1: Angela Strange had noticed an absence, just as Richard Taylor 240 00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:49,556 Speaker 1: had noticed an absence of a coach who really should 241 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:53,916 Speaker 1: exist in the middle of American financial life. Both were 242 00:14:53,956 --> 00:15:11,676 Speaker 1: waiting for whom or what they did not know. In 243 00:15:11,756 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 1: the Year of Our Lord nineteen seventy nine, in the 244 00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:18,276 Speaker 1: Mountains of Colorado, a woman gives birth out of wedlock 245 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:22,196 Speaker 1: to a boy, Jason. She names him. The mom's name 246 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: is Christina Brown. She's a fundamentalist Christian and takes the 247 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: Bible as the literal truth. She doesn't know how she's 248 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:30,636 Speaker 1: going to make ends meet, but she knows what she 249 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,916 Speaker 1: wants for her child. She wants him to be well educated. 250 00:15:34,236 --> 00:15:39,756 Speaker 1: To make sure that happens, she'll educate him herself. When 251 00:15:39,796 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: we were studying the health unit, I had Jason cleaned 252 00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:46,716 Speaker 1: the floor on his hands and knees with an extra 253 00:15:46,796 --> 00:15:49,796 Speaker 1: fifty pound backpack on his back, so that he would 254 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 1: know what it would be like to be overweight. That's Christina. 255 00:15:53,516 --> 00:15:55,396 Speaker 1: She didn't want her son to be taught what was 256 00:15:55,436 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 1: taught in schools, the theory of evolution, for instance, but 257 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:01,236 Speaker 1: mostly she just thought she could teach him better than 258 00:16:01,236 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 1: any school could. It was like, hey, Jason, what do 259 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:05,956 Speaker 1: you want to learn? The world is your classroom. You 260 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 1: can go learn anything you want. That's Jason Brown, all 261 00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:12,276 Speaker 1: grown up now. And you know there's one time in particular, 262 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:14,036 Speaker 1: I remember she's like, what do you want to learn? 263 00:16:14,076 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: And I said, I want to learn about taxidermy, and 264 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:19,596 Speaker 1: she said, okay, fine. She goes through the Yellow Pages. 265 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:21,436 Speaker 1: This was in the time where he had Yellow Pages, 266 00:16:21,476 --> 00:16:25,556 Speaker 1: and she calls all the taxidermists and convinces that some 267 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:28,156 Speaker 1: guy who owns a taxidermy shop to let us go 268 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 1: camp out in his workplace for a week, and we 269 00:16:31,596 --> 00:16:33,756 Speaker 1: would show up there and he would he would show 270 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:36,036 Speaker 1: us how he would take these animals and you know, 271 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 1: end up stuffing them and turning them into things that 272 00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:41,116 Speaker 1: could go on people's walls. And what was really cool 273 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: is you know, I learned about biology. I learned about 274 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:46,436 Speaker 1: the anatomy of animals. He taught us about the chemicals 275 00:16:46,476 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 1: that were used. And then I would ask a lot 276 00:16:48,556 --> 00:16:51,076 Speaker 1: of questions about just the business of taxidermy, like how 277 00:16:51,156 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 1: much do you all these chemicals cost? How much do 278 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:54,396 Speaker 1: you pay for this thing? What do you sell it 279 00:16:54,436 --> 00:16:58,036 Speaker 1: for the education of Jason Brown wasn't normal. It was 280 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:02,316 Speaker 1: kinetic hands on. His mother encouraged him to ask questions, 281 00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:04,956 Speaker 1: but at the same time, he lived in a very 282 00:17:05,036 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 1: small world. It was just turn him and his little brother. 283 00:17:11,676 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 1: Maybe because he was so dependent on his mom, he 284 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:16,716 Speaker 1: worried about her. Even as a little kid. He could 285 00:17:16,716 --> 00:17:20,476 Speaker 1: see that she was exposed and vulnerable, especially when it 286 00:17:20,516 --> 00:17:25,316 Speaker 1: came to money. My money was in envelopes, and each 287 00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:29,276 Speaker 1: envelope had a different designation and when the money was gone, 288 00:17:29,276 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 1: it was gone. What would have been the envelopes designations? Okay, 289 00:17:33,436 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 1: the first envelope was my tithe, then it was rent, 290 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:45,956 Speaker 1: then it was groceries, miscellaneous electric gas, and you paid 291 00:17:45,996 --> 00:17:51,836 Speaker 1: in that order. That's right. We literally, and I'm not exaggerating, 292 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:54,676 Speaker 1: eight beans and rice. Pretty much every day. I ground 293 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:57,276 Speaker 1: my own wheat, made my own whole wheatbread, made my 294 00:17:57,316 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 1: own tortillas, made cereal in the crock pot for breakfast, 295 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:05,036 Speaker 1: and we had peanut butter on toast. We ate very simply. 296 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 1: We shopped at Goodwill, even for a Christmas gift's birthday gifts. 297 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 1: Sometimes Jason snuck a peek inside the money envelopes. A 298 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:18,716 Speaker 1: lot of the time they were totally empty. Yet, even 299 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: when she had no money, his mother insisted on staying 300 00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:24,796 Speaker 1: home and teaching him and his brother. By the time 301 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:27,436 Speaker 1: he was ten years old, Jason was fully aware that 302 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: his mother was running huge risks. They were totally on 303 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:35,356 Speaker 1: their own. There was no safety net. The most trivial 304 00:18:35,356 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 1: events could disrupt their lives. So we had this friend, 305 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: his name was Donnie. He's a big kid, and he 306 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 1: came over to the house and spent the weekend or 307 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:46,636 Speaker 1: something like that, and Donnie ate a lot, and he 308 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:51,116 Speaker 1: really really liked milk too. And I remember specifically in 309 00:18:51,156 --> 00:18:53,996 Speaker 1: the kitchen and Donnie was just pounding the milk and 310 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:56,916 Speaker 1: he finished the milk, and I remember looking at my 311 00:18:56,996 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: mom and she looked at me, and I could just 312 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 1: see the dread and fear on her face because Donnie 313 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:07,596 Speaker 1: drank all the milk. Donnie drank an envelope. Yeah, he 314 00:19:07,756 --> 00:19:10,876 Speaker 1: drank an envelope, and just like because I knew that 315 00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:15,636 Speaker 1: the envelope for food was already used up. And you know, 316 00:19:15,676 --> 00:19:17,356 Speaker 1: I could see in her eyes like, hey, what are 317 00:19:17,356 --> 00:19:19,396 Speaker 1: we gonna do? Like we can't go on buy more mode, 318 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:26,516 Speaker 1: Like that's it. So they went without milk. Another memory 319 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: is the day Jason's mom told him that she needed 320 00:19:28,516 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 1: to take on a second job and it'd have to 321 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: go to a real school. He was in the eighth grade. 322 00:19:34,356 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 1: The real school was hellish. Other kids made fun of him. 323 00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: One day, a kid just walked up to him and 324 00:19:39,356 --> 00:19:41,476 Speaker 1: punched him in the face, and no one did anything 325 00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 1: about it. Jason felt totally loved by his mom, and 326 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 1: he loved her back. She'd given him real strengths. He 327 00:19:48,676 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 1: knew how to learn to teach himself, but she'd also 328 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 1: left him with a fear of money, of being one 329 00:19:56,596 --> 00:20:00,716 Speaker 1: accident away from disaster. His mother couldn't afford for him 330 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:03,236 Speaker 1: to fall off his bike and break his wrist, much 331 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:05,876 Speaker 1: less pay for him to go to college. He went 332 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:09,756 Speaker 1: to the University of Colorado anyway. To pay for he 333 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:12,796 Speaker 1: took out student loans, but the moment he did that, 334 00:20:13,116 --> 00:20:16,676 Speaker 1: he felt exposed and vulnerable like his mom. He was 335 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:22,236 Speaker 1: eighteen years old. I would drive home every single weekend 336 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:25,556 Speaker 1: starting in January, and I would go home to my 337 00:20:25,716 --> 00:20:28,236 Speaker 1: hometown where I grew up, and it was about two 338 00:20:28,236 --> 00:20:29,956 Speaker 1: to two and a half hour drive, and I would 339 00:20:29,956 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 1: spend the weekend knocking on doors, handing out flyers, say hey, 340 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:35,876 Speaker 1: would you hire me to paint your house. Jason had 341 00:20:35,916 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 1: never painted a house, but then there was a time 342 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:39,916 Speaker 1: when he didn't know how to stuff an animal, and 343 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:41,956 Speaker 1: he'd figured out how to do that. And there's just 344 00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:44,116 Speaker 1: you know, there's six feet of snow outside, and this 345 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:46,516 Speaker 1: kid is trying to convince you to paint his house. 346 00:20:46,556 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: And they're like, number one, come back to me in 347 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 1: the summer. Number two, how many houses have you paint out? Like? 348 00:20:51,636 --> 00:20:53,796 Speaker 1: I've never painted a house in my life. But I 349 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:55,716 Speaker 1: promise I'm going to hire people who do know how 350 00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:58,476 Speaker 1: to paint their house. Maybe the oddest thing about Jason 351 00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:00,876 Speaker 1: Brown is he found nothing odd about any of this. 352 00:21:01,476 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: An eighteen year old convincing grown ups in the snow 353 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 1: to trust him with their homes. So I brought snowshoes, 354 00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: and I would have a pair for me and a 355 00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:11,916 Speaker 1: pair for them. And now I knew as long as 356 00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 1: I could convince the homeowner to put on their shoes 357 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:15,876 Speaker 1: and coat and go around the house with me and 358 00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 1: snow shoes, that they would then by the end of 359 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 1: that have a pretty good chance of hiring me. He 360 00:21:22,676 --> 00:21:24,636 Speaker 1: was still a kid, but pretty soon this wasn't a 361 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:28,156 Speaker 1: kid's business. The crazy thing is, by the end of 362 00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:31,476 Speaker 1: the summer, I had painted something like forty or fifty homes, 363 00:21:31,876 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 1: and I had I think fifteen or twenty employees, and 364 00:21:35,236 --> 00:21:37,916 Speaker 1: I actually put fifty thousand dollars in my pocket for 365 00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:41,756 Speaker 1: one summer. Really, you cleared fifty one hundred and fifty 366 00:21:41,756 --> 00:21:44,396 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a total revenue, And it was fifty thousand 367 00:21:44,396 --> 00:21:48,356 Speaker 1: dollars nut to me. He wasn't done. After Jason's first 368 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 1: year in college, he set out to grow his business. 369 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:54,916 Speaker 1: Rural Colorado wasn't a great market. There weren't that many houses. 370 00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 1: The weather was hard on paint, but not as hard 371 00:21:57,516 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 1: as it was in other places. He decided to find 372 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 1: a better market, and so I transferred to Boston University. 373 00:22:04,556 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 1: And by the time wait, wait, you transferred to Boston 374 00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:12,396 Speaker 1: University specifically to pursue the business of painting houses, I did, yes, 375 00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:14,436 Speaker 1: Because you'd based so much money in painting houses. I didn't. 376 00:22:14,476 --> 00:22:15,636 Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, you weren't even in 377 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 1: the right place to paint house exactly. To pick your 378 00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:19,956 Speaker 1: school based on where there'd be the most houses to paint, 379 00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:23,876 Speaker 1: you got it exactly. At BU Jason ran his painting 380 00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:27,636 Speaker 1: business from his laptop at the back of classrooms, prepping 381 00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:29,676 Speaker 1: for the big season in the summer. When we were 382 00:22:29,676 --> 00:22:31,916 Speaker 1: painting all the houses, it was about four hundred employees, 383 00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:35,116 Speaker 1: and I think in the year that I sold the company, 384 00:22:35,156 --> 00:22:37,396 Speaker 1: we were doing about three million dollars a total revenue. 385 00:22:37,716 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: I don't remember the exact amount that I made from 386 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 1: all that. A couple questions one, are you at any 387 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:44,956 Speaker 1: point are you conscious that you're being driven by having 388 00:22:44,956 --> 00:22:47,116 Speaker 1: grown up in an environment where money was so scarce. 389 00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:49,956 Speaker 1: I did so when I was I think I think 390 00:22:49,956 --> 00:22:53,956 Speaker 1: I was probably about ten. I really loved avocados, and 391 00:22:55,076 --> 00:22:57,036 Speaker 1: you know, money was so tight in our household. We'd 392 00:22:57,036 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 1: go to the grocery store. I'm like, Mom, can I 393 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:01,356 Speaker 1: have amocados? She's like, I'm sorry, they're too expensive. Every 394 00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 1: now and then we would get when it was a treat, 395 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:06,996 Speaker 1: and I remember just savoring every bite of that buttery avocado, 396 00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:09,956 Speaker 1: and I in my mind mid I said, I will 397 00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 1: be rich enough one day to eat as many avocados 398 00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:15,516 Speaker 1: as I want. And still to this day, I eat 399 00:23:15,556 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 1: an avocado almost every single day, And not a single 400 00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 1: time do I ever opened an avocado and not feel it. 401 00:23:20,876 --> 00:23:24,316 Speaker 1: Just immense gratitude for being able to afford as many avocado. 402 00:23:24,316 --> 00:23:26,956 Speaker 1: You even gotten used to avocado? I've not gotten tired 403 00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: of them. No. Jason went to grad school in business 404 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:33,556 Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago. Pretty soon he knew rich people, 405 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: but they didn't seem nearly as admirable or hard working 406 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:39,516 Speaker 1: as his mother. He was coming to see money and 407 00:23:39,596 --> 00:23:44,036 Speaker 1: the problems around money as its own thing, as problems 408 00:23:44,076 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 1: some people just had. Jason Brown started more companies and 409 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: sold them The companies all had one thing in common. 410 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 1: They made it easy for people to do things they 411 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 1: really should do. One of his companies made it easy 412 00:23:59,236 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: for people to get their home computers fixed remotely geek 413 00:24:02,316 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 1: squad before geek Squad. Another made it easy for homeowners 414 00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:08,636 Speaker 1: to switch to solar power and cut their electricity bills 415 00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:13,036 Speaker 1: in half. Jason was all about making it easy. We 416 00:24:13,156 --> 00:24:16,476 Speaker 1: did not evolve to do multi period financial optimization right 417 00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 1: as hairless apes. We did not have this expectation that 418 00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 1: we're going to live eighty years and be part of 419 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:26,596 Speaker 1: a global economy with all this complexity. One day he 420 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:29,836 Speaker 1: was reading a book, You've All Harari Sapiens. It was 421 00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:33,356 Speaker 1: about how humans evolved and where the species might be heading. 422 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:36,996 Speaker 1: Evolution was a new idea did Jason. He thought it 423 00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:41,876 Speaker 1: explained a lot, almost out of corporate evolution. This entire industry, 424 00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:46,676 Speaker 1: the finance industry, has evolved to exploit every single cognitive 425 00:24:46,676 --> 00:24:48,996 Speaker 1: a bias, or every mistake that people make when they're 426 00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 1: thinking about money. Exactly every little bug we have in 427 00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:53,796 Speaker 1: our brains that that you served us well when we 428 00:24:53,796 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: were on the savannah, but but now is not maybe 429 00:24:56,716 --> 00:25:00,076 Speaker 1: directly translatable to the kind of lives we live, and 430 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:04,396 Speaker 1: every product they have, every contract they make, is designed 431 00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:07,396 Speaker 1: to exploit these bugs in our brains, getting people to 432 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:14,996 Speaker 1: do things they really shouldn't do. For Jason, money wasn't 433 00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 1: just money. At some point, he realized that every time 434 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:20,676 Speaker 1: he thought about money, he also thought about his mom 435 00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:23,676 Speaker 1: and her three envelopes of cash for the month. I 436 00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:25,436 Speaker 1: actually need to tell you a little bit more about 437 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:29,916 Speaker 1: about my mom. So, my mom is, so she's my hero. 438 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:32,516 Speaker 1: And the reason she's my hero is she grew up 439 00:25:32,676 --> 00:25:37,116 Speaker 1: in a pretty challenging childhood. I'm not a lot of resources, 440 00:25:37,156 --> 00:25:39,916 Speaker 1: not very supportive. She ended up having me when she 441 00:25:40,076 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 1: was twenty one or twenty two, just a high school graduate, 442 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:47,276 Speaker 1: no higher education. She'd overcome all that and given him 443 00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:50,476 Speaker 1: and his brother the most amazing education. She is just 444 00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:52,556 Speaker 1: the model of discipline. I mean the woman. She's a 445 00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:56,436 Speaker 1: rob vegan and I'm so proud of that. Hard that's 446 00:25:56,476 --> 00:25:59,556 Speaker 1: hard to be presumable. It is, it is. It is 447 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 1: very hard. And she's sixty two now, sixty two, and 448 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 1: most of her life she'd had to figure out everything 449 00:26:05,636 --> 00:26:08,996 Speaker 1: on her own, including money. But like let's say say 450 00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:11,556 Speaker 1: you graduates high school and there's like an accountant and 451 00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 1: a financial advisor. They're just like, we're going to do 452 00:26:14,196 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 1: all your If she had a coach coming out of 453 00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:17,396 Speaker 1: high school, if she had a coach coming out of 454 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 1: high school, I know she'd own a home right now, properly, 455 00:26:20,356 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 1: she'd have a nice little nest egg, a retirement. She 456 00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: would be in a good spot. It definitely was possible. 457 00:26:25,556 --> 00:26:29,996 Speaker 1: But she didn't have that. Jason could take care of 458 00:26:29,996 --> 00:26:32,676 Speaker 1: his mom, and he did, But what about all the 459 00:26:32,676 --> 00:26:36,076 Speaker 1: other moms. He decided to create a company specifically to 460 00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:38,956 Speaker 1: help them. He looked hard at the entire money game 461 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 1: before he settled on consumer finance and especially credit cards. 462 00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 1: Because if finance is a competitive sport, the credit card 463 00:26:46,516 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 1: companies are undefeated. They've smashed together a payment tool and 464 00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:53,676 Speaker 1: alone into one, and they've designed the payment tool to 465 00:26:53,876 --> 00:26:56,476 Speaker 1: again exploit all these bugs in our brain. So you 466 00:26:56,556 --> 00:26:59,316 Speaker 1: get points for spending, you get access to lounges, It 467 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:01,476 Speaker 1: comes in different colors and metals. You can even get 468 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:05,756 Speaker 1: your dog's picture printed on the card. Right, So they 469 00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 1: create all of these things that they want to use it. Yeah, exactly, 470 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:11,116 Speaker 1: make you want to use it and make you when 471 00:27:11,156 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 1: you go go get a credit card, you're not thinking about, oh, 472 00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 1: I might end up getting charged this interest down the road. 473 00:27:16,636 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 1: You're thinking about, oh, I'm going to get these points 474 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:21,116 Speaker 1: and have access to these hotels, whatever it is. And 475 00:27:21,236 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 1: that allows banks to substantially overcharge everybody on the interest rates. 476 00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:27,276 Speaker 1: So they just distract you from the cost of the 477 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:29,836 Speaker 1: interest rate exactly. So there's no one out there competing 478 00:27:29,876 --> 00:27:32,596 Speaker 1: by saying, get our card and we'll give you a 479 00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:35,276 Speaker 1: lower interest rate, because it's not even in the conversation, 480 00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 1: which is insane if you stop and think about it. 481 00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:43,276 Speaker 1: I mean, our government hardly pays any interest on most 482 00:27:43,316 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 1: of its debt. Really risky companies can borrow at seven percent. 483 00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:50,676 Speaker 1: To think that millions of people are paying nineteen to 484 00:27:50,756 --> 00:27:54,316 Speaker 1: thirty percent interest on anything. Who other than the American 485 00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:57,756 Speaker 1: credit card borrower pays so much And that's not even 486 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:00,956 Speaker 1: counting the billions in late fees. Once Jason homed in 487 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 1: on this particular racket, he noticed other things, like the 488 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 1: monthly statements these lenders send to people who owe the money. 489 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:10,756 Speaker 1: You look at a credit card statement, the thing with 490 00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:14,036 Speaker 1: the biggest fun it's like size eighty ninety font is 491 00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:17,196 Speaker 1: your minimum payment. They're using something called the anchoring effect. 492 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:19,476 Speaker 1: Which show you a low number and gets you to 493 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:22,356 Speaker 1: pay relatively low amounts to the card, which means that 494 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:24,276 Speaker 1: you have more debt and they charge you more money. Right, 495 00:28:24,316 --> 00:28:26,236 Speaker 1: they're trying to encourage you to go into yes, so 496 00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:29,636 Speaker 1: they're encouraging you to spend and encouraging you like bad coaching. 497 00:28:29,716 --> 00:28:32,676 Speaker 1: It is bad coaching. Right. The more Jason Brown looked 498 00:28:32,676 --> 00:28:35,116 Speaker 1: into the credit card industry, the more he thought he 499 00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 1: might be able to get people out from under it 500 00:28:37,316 --> 00:28:40,316 Speaker 1: with an app. Do you think financial behaviors can be changed? 501 00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:44,156 Speaker 1: A hundred percent? Believe financial behaviors can be changed. Jason 502 00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:47,916 Speaker 1: created yet another company and called it Tally. He got 503 00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:50,476 Speaker 1: the investor Angela Strange to give him money and to 504 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:54,716 Speaker 1: join his board. The ideas behind Tally could be traced 505 00:28:54,716 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 1: to a class that he had snuck into at the 506 00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:00,596 Speaker 1: Booth School of Business in Chicago, taught by Richard Thaylor. 507 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:04,076 Speaker 1: The biggest idea was it was very hard to change 508 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: people's behavior unless you make it easy for people to change, 509 00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:10,716 Speaker 1: make it feel to them like no more than a nudge. 510 00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:16,836 Speaker 1: We viewed nudges as an alternative to coaching. That's Richard 511 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:20,116 Speaker 1: Taylor again. You know, we could try to teach people 512 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 1: to sign up for the foe own k plan where 513 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:26,556 Speaker 1: there's a company match and turning it down is free 514 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:31,436 Speaker 1: money and stupid, right, Or we could just automatically enroll them, right, 515 00:29:32,076 --> 00:29:36,556 Speaker 1: and we knew the ladder works really well and the 516 00:29:36,636 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 1: former is like pulling teeth right. So so part of 517 00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:44,156 Speaker 1: nudging is a response to a sense of the limits 518 00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 1: of coaching. Yeah, that's the point, right If you if 519 00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:50,596 Speaker 1: you really thought, well, we can we can coach all 520 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:52,316 Speaker 1: these people up and how not to get exploited by 521 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:55,796 Speaker 1: credit card companies, you would coach them up. The best 522 00:29:55,876 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 1: thing is to make things automatic, making good behaviors easy. Yeah. 523 00:30:00,316 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: The basis of Jason Brown's businesses that class he took 524 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:06,996 Speaker 1: from you. It's creating our decision environment where the way 525 00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:09,716 Speaker 1: that people naturally with least friction, the least amount of 526 00:30:09,756 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 1: effort go is in their interests rather than against their interests. 527 00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:15,516 Speaker 1: So he picked that up. It's a good lesson to 528 00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 1: have learned. Taylor has not the first memory of Jason 529 00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 1: Brown in his class, but Jason got the gist as 530 00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 1: Taylor's message. He hired a bunch of engineers to spend 531 00:30:23,636 --> 00:30:26,516 Speaker 1: three and a half years building the company software so 532 00:30:26,556 --> 00:30:29,556 Speaker 1: that it nudged people with credit card debt in ways 533 00:30:29,596 --> 00:30:32,236 Speaker 1: that were good for them. So if I have four 534 00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 1: different credit cards from four different banks on my visas, 535 00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:41,356 Speaker 1: I do whatever I do, but but you pay them 536 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:44,556 Speaker 1: off yeah, and I pay you yeah. So you're telling 537 00:30:44,596 --> 00:30:47,476 Speaker 1: me what I exactly. So you download the app for free, 538 00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:50,596 Speaker 1: you pass a soft credit check, and then we're saying, hey, Michael, 539 00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:52,556 Speaker 1: we're going to pay all these cards when they're due 540 00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:54,756 Speaker 1: at the exact right time, the exact right So a 541 00:30:54,756 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 1: couple of questions that naturally popped in mind. You're going 542 00:30:57,196 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 1: to charge me a much lower interest rate than the 543 00:30:59,116 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: credit card companies. How can you afford to do that 544 00:31:02,676 --> 00:31:06,996 Speaker 1: if they were charging me the actual correct rate given 545 00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:10,556 Speaker 1: the risk I present to them. Well, here's the rub. So, 546 00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:14,796 Speaker 1: coming back to this financial industry that's designed to make 547 00:31:14,836 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 1: money off of us, credit card interest rates are astronomically high, 548 00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 1: and they do not represent the rate that you should 549 00:31:21,356 --> 00:31:23,596 Speaker 1: be paying. You'd save a bunch of money just by 550 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,236 Speaker 1: not paying the high interest rate. Of course, you could 551 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 1: ruin yourself all over again by going out and buying 552 00:31:28,756 --> 00:31:31,796 Speaker 1: stuff you shouldn't. But Jason's hoping that he's nudged you 553 00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:34,516 Speaker 1: into a different state of mind, a state of mind 554 00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:37,756 Speaker 1: in which you would make wiser decisions about money. And 555 00:31:37,796 --> 00:31:41,196 Speaker 1: what we've seen is that when people invest more in 556 00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:44,396 Speaker 1: their debt, they actually just tend to spend less. And mentally, 557 00:31:44,396 --> 00:31:46,076 Speaker 1: it kind of makes sense because you know, if you 558 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:48,876 Speaker 1: go out and let's say that you eat out for lunch, 559 00:31:49,076 --> 00:31:50,636 Speaker 1: somebody be like, well, maybe I don't want to eat 560 00:31:50,636 --> 00:31:52,676 Speaker 1: out for dinner because I already spent some money. So 561 00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:54,756 Speaker 1: the effect is I feel like I kind of spent 562 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:58,036 Speaker 1: money on my debt, and now maybe I don't want 563 00:31:58,036 --> 00:31:59,636 Speaker 1: to go out for lunch. Maybe I don't want to 564 00:31:59,636 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 1: go out for dinner. Instead of giving people points for spending, 565 00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:06,076 Speaker 1: tally gives them points for saving. Instead of encouraging them 566 00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 1: to pay off the minimum, they help them to figure 567 00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:10,876 Speaker 1: out how to pay them maximum. Instead of trying to 568 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 1: keep people acting on impulse, it tries to get them 569 00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:18,156 Speaker 1: to think twice. The company took off, but something was 570 00:32:18,236 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 1: bothering Jason. He thought a company needed both a vision 571 00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 1: and a mission. A vision was where you were going, 572 00:32:25,836 --> 00:32:32,436 Speaker 1: a mission was why you were going there. Jason wanted 573 00:32:32,476 --> 00:32:36,836 Speaker 1: to understand the deeper emotional consequences of debt, and initially 574 00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:39,556 Speaker 1: my thought was that most of the emotions would be 575 00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,476 Speaker 1: around regret, like, hey, I spent this money in the past, 576 00:32:42,516 --> 00:32:45,716 Speaker 1: and I regret having bought that right, and regret from 577 00:32:45,716 --> 00:32:48,476 Speaker 1: the sadness family, so it's the sense of loss of 578 00:32:48,516 --> 00:32:51,316 Speaker 1: something in the past. He hired a team of researchers 579 00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 1: to test this idea. They came back and told Jason 580 00:32:54,396 --> 00:32:58,876 Speaker 1: that no, this wasn't about sadness. The emotions that were 581 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:01,756 Speaker 1: coming out were anxiety, which is a fear emotion, and 582 00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 1: it's the feeling that there's a threat in the future 583 00:33:03,916 --> 00:33:07,116 Speaker 1: that you don't have the capacity to handle or protect yourself. 584 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:11,236 Speaker 1: Jason paid for another study, one that tried to measure 585 00:33:11,236 --> 00:33:14,036 Speaker 1: the stress levels of people with credit card debt. We 586 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:17,556 Speaker 1: had found that two thirds of individuals with card debt 587 00:33:17,796 --> 00:33:20,196 Speaker 1: have medical levels of anxiety, so meaning you're in a 588 00:33:20,276 --> 00:33:23,436 Speaker 1: doctor's office waiting for some important test results, the same 589 00:33:23,516 --> 00:33:25,996 Speaker 1: kind of anxiety that people feel there. That's what people 590 00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 1: are feeling on a regular basis with their cards. Millions 591 00:33:29,476 --> 00:33:32,476 Speaker 1: of Americans are sick from this stress, and their illness 592 00:33:32,516 --> 00:33:36,956 Speaker 1: has all kinds of other effects. Oftentimes it's described as 593 00:33:37,476 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 1: a weight on chest, drowning, not being able to breathe. 594 00:33:41,516 --> 00:33:45,916 Speaker 1: So a lot of people experience stress is actual constriction 595 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:49,636 Speaker 1: within the body, and sensations of tightness are acid in 596 00:33:49,636 --> 00:33:53,876 Speaker 1: the stomach. Grinding of teeth is really a common thing 597 00:33:53,916 --> 00:33:57,876 Speaker 1: because it manifests oftentimes while people are sleeping. At some point, 598 00:33:57,956 --> 00:34:00,956 Speaker 1: Jason realized that stress wasn't just a bug in the 599 00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:04,516 Speaker 1: American financial system. It was a feature. There's a lot 600 00:34:04,556 --> 00:34:08,716 Speaker 1: of research that suggests that it also affects cognition. So 601 00:34:08,756 --> 00:34:11,636 Speaker 1: if you're like a sinister credit card company and you're 602 00:34:11,636 --> 00:34:15,956 Speaker 1: trying to keep people trapped in a dark financial world, 603 00:34:16,436 --> 00:34:18,516 Speaker 1: the first thing you would do is stress them out. 604 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 1: By definition, the way the credit card statements are made, 605 00:34:22,356 --> 00:34:26,236 Speaker 1: especially by store cards, those cards that are associated with retailers. 606 00:34:26,516 --> 00:34:28,876 Speaker 1: The banks behind those are some of the best, and 607 00:34:28,996 --> 00:34:30,836 Speaker 1: even they do things like make it so that even 608 00:34:30,876 --> 00:34:32,636 Speaker 1: if you had wanted to set up an auto pay, 609 00:34:32,876 --> 00:34:35,956 Speaker 1: it's actually not a function that is available because they're 610 00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:38,796 Speaker 1: hoping that people will have late fees and forget about 611 00:34:38,836 --> 00:34:44,676 Speaker 1: balances and things like that. It took Jason three and 612 00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:46,996 Speaker 1: a half years to create his app. It took him 613 00:34:47,036 --> 00:34:49,756 Speaker 1: two minutes to create his first logo. It's a woman 614 00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:52,996 Speaker 1: reclining in a chair, her feet up on a table, 615 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:55,636 Speaker 1: and a cup of coffee in her hand. A woman 616 00:34:55,716 --> 00:34:59,396 Speaker 1: like his mom, but freed from anxiety with the help 617 00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:00,996 Speaker 1: of a coach. So, if we were to use a 618 00:35:01,036 --> 00:35:04,596 Speaker 1: sport analogy, the coaches arranged for food and meals to 619 00:35:04,596 --> 00:35:06,436 Speaker 1: be delivered, so you get to eat the right thing. 620 00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:09,116 Speaker 1: They've set up the gym membership for you. They've made 621 00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:11,836 Speaker 1: so that not only are you being led for how 622 00:35:11,996 --> 00:35:14,556 Speaker 1: you can get the outcome you want, but also all 623 00:35:14,556 --> 00:35:18,236 Speaker 1: the sources of interference as much as possible or being removed. 624 00:35:18,796 --> 00:35:21,396 Speaker 1: Ninety nine percent of the people who sign up to 625 00:35:21,516 --> 00:35:24,756 Speaker 1: use Jason's app have stayed with it, and it's kind 626 00:35:24,796 --> 00:35:27,116 Speaker 1: of incredible what happens to people when they're rewarded for 627 00:35:27,196 --> 00:35:30,196 Speaker 1: behaving well instead of badly. They could say, oh, you know, 628 00:35:30,236 --> 00:35:32,556 Speaker 1: I'd rather buy the coffee than have it and be 629 00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:35,476 Speaker 1: set aside, But ninety percent of people are still letting 630 00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:37,396 Speaker 1: us set money aside for them. And I think it 631 00:35:37,436 --> 00:35:39,236 Speaker 1: has very much to do with the fact that every 632 00:35:39,236 --> 00:35:41,876 Speaker 1: time it happens, you get points. People would do the 633 00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:44,156 Speaker 1: smart thing for themselves if you made it easy for 634 00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:47,396 Speaker 1: them to do the smart thing for themselves. Make it easy, 635 00:35:47,556 --> 00:35:50,516 Speaker 1: and people would create a buffer for themselves, a margin 636 00:35:50,596 --> 00:35:55,036 Speaker 1: of safety, a thing Jason's mom had never had, and 637 00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:56,876 Speaker 1: then it kept him awake. When he was a kid. 638 00:35:57,476 --> 00:36:00,316 Speaker 1: Jason had not set out to become a coach, but 639 00:36:00,396 --> 00:36:02,996 Speaker 1: he saw that a coach is exactly what he'd become. 640 00:36:03,356 --> 00:36:05,836 Speaker 1: The definition of a good coach is one who makes 641 00:36:05,836 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 1: their players feel like they don't need the coach. Okay, 642 00:36:08,876 --> 00:36:11,476 Speaker 1: the way I think you do that is first you 643 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:15,276 Speaker 1: take out all the hard work and all the distractions. Second, 644 00:36:15,356 --> 00:36:18,236 Speaker 1: you make it easy to have good behaviors, and third 645 00:36:18,316 --> 00:36:23,076 Speaker 1: is you make people want to have good behaviors. And 646 00:36:23,276 --> 00:36:25,476 Speaker 1: that's the thing about coaching that makes it so hard 647 00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:29,556 Speaker 1: to pin down. The best coaches don't leave you needing them. 648 00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:33,276 Speaker 1: You start with some fear or sense of inadequacy, They 649 00:36:33,316 --> 00:36:36,836 Speaker 1: help you get past it, then they recede. And in 650 00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:39,196 Speaker 1: the future, every single one of us is going to 651 00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:42,916 Speaker 1: have this hyper smart service that's doing all these complex 652 00:36:42,956 --> 00:36:45,236 Speaker 1: things in the background and nudging us and making us 653 00:36:45,276 --> 00:36:48,956 Speaker 1: feel really good about eating our financial broccoli, so to speak. 654 00:36:49,116 --> 00:36:50,636 Speaker 1: And we're going to feel great about it, but we're 655 00:36:50,676 --> 00:36:52,716 Speaker 1: not even going to see it. It's an invisible coach. 656 00:36:53,036 --> 00:36:56,436 Speaker 1: A coach that could maybe even help stop people from 657 00:36:56,476 --> 00:37:09,996 Speaker 1: grinding their teeth at night. To be honest, I think 658 00:37:09,996 --> 00:37:11,556 Speaker 1: I said this to you on the phone. I have 659 00:37:11,636 --> 00:37:14,516 Speaker 1: no idea what's in my bank account. Last October we 660 00:37:14,556 --> 00:37:18,036 Speaker 1: introduced Katie Highland to Jason's company Tally. She decided she 661 00:37:18,196 --> 00:37:20,756 Speaker 1: needed a coach, but her husband had to sign her 662 00:37:20,836 --> 00:37:22,796 Speaker 1: up because he was the only one with the nerve 663 00:37:22,836 --> 00:37:25,436 Speaker 1: to look at their bank account. I make Stephen chuck it, 664 00:37:25,876 --> 00:37:28,116 Speaker 1: and I ask him whether I'm good or not, and 665 00:37:28,196 --> 00:37:30,836 Speaker 1: he says yes, And sometimes I believe him and sometimes 666 00:37:30,836 --> 00:37:33,756 Speaker 1: I don't. But as long as I don't get a 667 00:37:33,756 --> 00:37:36,076 Speaker 1: phone call from the landlord that the rent didn't go through, 668 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:41,196 Speaker 1: then I know that we're okay. So it scares the 669 00:37:41,196 --> 00:37:44,876 Speaker 1: bid Jesus out of me to know what's in there, 670 00:37:44,916 --> 00:37:48,116 Speaker 1: because I don't think like we don't spend frivolously, like 671 00:37:48,156 --> 00:37:50,836 Speaker 1: we even where it said like dining out. I put 672 00:37:50,876 --> 00:37:54,476 Speaker 1: an a like work meals, and like we don't do 673 00:37:54,556 --> 00:37:58,036 Speaker 1: those things. You can hear the anxiety in her voice, right, 674 00:37:58,396 --> 00:38:02,916 Speaker 1: But that could change. I'm betting it will change, because 675 00:38:02,916 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 1: a good coach can change a lot. We gave Katie 676 00:38:15,196 --> 00:38:18,636 Speaker 1: Hyland some time before we bother her again. All right, 677 00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:21,316 Speaker 1: So I don't know how many months ago we spoke. 678 00:38:21,356 --> 00:38:24,036 Speaker 1: There was a few months anyway. But since then, like 679 00:38:24,196 --> 00:38:28,196 Speaker 1: we set you up with Tally and just the idea 680 00:38:28,276 --> 00:38:32,356 Speaker 1: of a financial coach. So with Talie, they've been amazing. 681 00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:35,756 Speaker 1: How long was it before we introduced the two of you, 682 00:38:36,436 --> 00:38:38,836 Speaker 1: before you said, actually, this is a good thing. This 683 00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:41,796 Speaker 1: isn't just humoring Michael in his podcast, This is actually 684 00:38:41,796 --> 00:38:44,956 Speaker 1: a good thing. No, immediately immediately, I think, you know, 685 00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:47,756 Speaker 1: it was definitely overwhelming at first to sort of, you know, 686 00:38:47,876 --> 00:38:51,196 Speaker 1: gather all of those documents and find out what my 687 00:38:51,276 --> 00:38:54,756 Speaker 1: interest rates were, and you know, figure out what things 688 00:38:54,796 --> 00:38:57,036 Speaker 1: I was paying every month and sort of get them 689 00:38:57,036 --> 00:39:00,116 Speaker 1: together in one central location. That was a bit overwhelming. 690 00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:03,756 Speaker 1: But I mean they walked me and talked me through 691 00:39:03,956 --> 00:39:07,996 Speaker 1: absolutely every step of the way and made sure that 692 00:39:08,116 --> 00:39:10,876 Speaker 1: I understood what was going on. I can remember you 693 00:39:10,916 --> 00:39:13,196 Speaker 1: telling me that your view before was you didn't even 694 00:39:13,236 --> 00:39:15,396 Speaker 1: want to look at your bank account. I knew you 695 00:39:15,436 --> 00:39:17,196 Speaker 1: were going to bring that up, and I have to 696 00:39:17,236 --> 00:39:20,076 Speaker 1: tell you, Michael, I looked at my bank account for 697 00:39:20,076 --> 00:39:23,676 Speaker 1: the first time about two days ago, full on the 698 00:39:23,676 --> 00:39:26,196 Speaker 1: computer screen in front of me. And all its glory. 699 00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:28,756 Speaker 1: I saw my balance and you know, it wasn't as 700 00:39:28,756 --> 00:39:30,756 Speaker 1: bad as I envisioned. It wasn't as good as I 701 00:39:31,076 --> 00:39:33,396 Speaker 1: wished it would be, but it was an important step 702 00:39:33,676 --> 00:39:37,396 Speaker 1: in handling my finances. Is like actually having a realistic 703 00:39:37,396 --> 00:39:39,236 Speaker 1: picture of what's in there. No, it's sort of like 704 00:39:39,276 --> 00:39:40,756 Speaker 1: if you're going to get in shape, you need to 705 00:39:40,796 --> 00:39:43,516 Speaker 1: have a scale to weigh your cell phone. Yeah, it's 706 00:39:43,556 --> 00:39:46,596 Speaker 1: going to help just having the conversations, like having a 707 00:39:46,636 --> 00:39:49,916 Speaker 1: set time as a couple for myself and my husband 708 00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:52,836 Speaker 1: to sit down and say, Okay, where are we with finances? 709 00:39:52,876 --> 00:39:55,716 Speaker 1: What did we spend this month? What unexpected things came up? 710 00:39:56,156 --> 00:39:57,996 Speaker 1: You know, how are we looking for next month? And 711 00:39:58,116 --> 00:40:00,556 Speaker 1: what are we putting toward our you know, our goals. 712 00:40:01,716 --> 00:40:05,436 Speaker 1: It's going to help just not our just not even like, 713 00:40:05,596 --> 00:40:07,316 Speaker 1: you know, reach our goals, but it's going to help 714 00:40:07,356 --> 00:40:10,356 Speaker 1: our relationship, my husband and I because money is a 715 00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:14,316 Speaker 1: definite source of stress. I mean, is there a couple 716 00:40:14,356 --> 00:40:22,916 Speaker 1: where that's not true? Noah, there's no need here to 717 00:40:22,996 --> 00:40:25,956 Speaker 1: recount how many thousands of dollars she saved herself by 718 00:40:25,996 --> 00:40:28,956 Speaker 1: having herself coached, or how she's now paying six percent 719 00:40:28,996 --> 00:40:31,516 Speaker 1: instead of twenty six percent on her credit card debts, 720 00:40:32,076 --> 00:40:34,196 Speaker 1: or how she and her husband expect to be entirely 721 00:40:34,276 --> 00:40:37,196 Speaker 1: debt free inside of a year. But let's just consider 722 00:40:37,276 --> 00:40:40,556 Speaker 1: the broader effects this coach has had, this person who's 723 00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:46,196 Speaker 1: on her side encouraging her best self. Has it changed 724 00:40:46,236 --> 00:40:48,556 Speaker 1: the kind of tone of the conversation around money when 725 00:40:48,596 --> 00:40:50,796 Speaker 1: you're and your husband sit down and talk about it. Yeah, 726 00:40:50,836 --> 00:40:54,916 Speaker 1: it was all very emotionally charged before. And now you know, 727 00:40:55,076 --> 00:40:57,876 Speaker 1: he's really taken to Okay, I'm laying everything out on 728 00:40:57,916 --> 00:40:59,756 Speaker 1: a spreadsheet and I you know, I put in all this, 729 00:40:59,836 --> 00:41:01,396 Speaker 1: and I did all this, and come look and let 730 00:41:01,396 --> 00:41:05,116 Speaker 1: me show you. So we're much more of a team 731 00:41:05,156 --> 00:41:07,156 Speaker 1: and much more on the same page, and I think 732 00:41:07,196 --> 00:41:11,436 Speaker 1: we're excited about the next couple of years. You can 733 00:41:11,436 --> 00:41:14,596 Speaker 1: hear it, too, right, The sound of a voice has changed. 734 00:41:15,596 --> 00:41:17,956 Speaker 1: All the other times I'd spoken with her, I could 735 00:41:17,956 --> 00:41:21,236 Speaker 1: almost hear her teeth grinding. I could hear her stress 736 00:41:21,596 --> 00:41:23,836 Speaker 1: and the way it was killing the pleasure she naturally 737 00:41:23,836 --> 00:41:27,956 Speaker 1: took in life. I didn't hear that anymore. I found 738 00:41:28,036 --> 00:41:31,996 Speaker 1: Katie Hyland in quarantine in New Rochelle, New York, at 739 00:41:31,996 --> 00:41:34,276 Speaker 1: the early center of what was shaping up to be 740 00:41:34,316 --> 00:41:39,516 Speaker 1: the greatest calamity in modern American history. But she sounded 741 00:41:39,556 --> 00:41:43,836 Speaker 1: almost hopeful. You know. It's funny is that you are 742 00:41:43,876 --> 00:41:48,236 Speaker 1: now sitting like one of the hot spots of the 743 00:41:48,316 --> 00:41:53,076 Speaker 1: American pandemic, and you sound so much happier than you 744 00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:56,956 Speaker 1: did a year ago. I know, the irony and everything is. 745 00:41:56,996 --> 00:42:00,036 Speaker 1: You sound happy. Well, I feel confident, you know, I 746 00:42:00,076 --> 00:42:03,116 Speaker 1: feel like, Wow, I can really start to do things 747 00:42:03,156 --> 00:42:05,516 Speaker 1: and I can really to think that. You know, we 748 00:42:05,596 --> 00:42:07,876 Speaker 1: set a goal of trying to buy a house by 749 00:42:07,916 --> 00:42:19,916 Speaker 1: the summer of two three, and that's amazing. I'm Michael Lewis. 750 00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:24,196 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Against the Rules. Against the Rules 751 00:42:24,276 --> 00:42:27,636 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. The show's produced 752 00:42:27,676 --> 00:42:31,916 Speaker 1: by Audrey Dilling and Katherine Girodo, with research assistance from Lydia, 753 00:42:31,996 --> 00:42:36,236 Speaker 1: Jane Cott, and Zooe Wynn. Our editor is Julia Barton. 754 00:42:36,876 --> 00:42:41,076 Speaker 1: Mia o'bell is our executive producer. Our theme was composed 755 00:42:41,076 --> 00:42:45,276 Speaker 1: by Nick Brittell, with additional scoring by Stellwagon Sinphonette. We 756 00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:48,836 Speaker 1: got fact checked by Beth Johnson. Our show was recorded 757 00:42:48,836 --> 00:42:52,196 Speaker 1: by tofur Ruth and Trey Schultz at Northgate Studios in 758 00:42:52,236 --> 00:42:57,916 Speaker 1: Berkeley and James Ward at Live Oak Studio. As always 759 00:42:58,356 --> 00:43:12,636 Speaker 1: thanks to Pushkin's founders Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell. How 760 00:43:12,676 --> 00:43:14,116 Speaker 1: often do you go on to go fund me and 761 00:43:14,116 --> 00:43:16,316 Speaker 1: give money to strangers? My wife and I were just 762 00:43:16,356 --> 00:43:18,436 Speaker 1: driving down the road and it just seemed like the 763 00:43:18,516 --> 00:43:21,396 Speaker 1: right thing to do. But I don't typically go in 764 00:43:21,476 --> 00:43:23,916 Speaker 1: to go fund me and donate to strangers. I think 765 00:43:23,916 --> 00:43:26,756 Speaker 1: it's more when something speaks to me and it's something 766 00:43:26,796 --> 00:43:29,156 Speaker 1: that you can easily cover, you just go ahead and 767 00:43:29,156 --> 00:43:31,836 Speaker 1: do it. It's always how I've been taught. This is 768 00:43:31,836 --> 00:43:34,756 Speaker 1: a meet Kakar, the guy who made the last donation 769 00:43:34,796 --> 00:43:37,356 Speaker 1: to the fund that paid off Katie Highland student loans. 770 00:43:37,756 --> 00:43:39,476 Speaker 1: He turns out to be a real estate agent in 771 00:43:39,556 --> 00:43:42,556 Speaker 1: suburban DC. Makes me wish I wanted to buy a house. 772 00:43:42,956 --> 00:43:45,116 Speaker 1: So who's the idea? Was it yours or your wife's 773 00:43:45,116 --> 00:43:47,236 Speaker 1: to go and find the go fund me page and 774 00:43:47,396 --> 00:43:50,916 Speaker 1: finish off the campaign? It was me, but she obviously 775 00:43:51,636 --> 00:43:53,356 Speaker 1: it is used to me doing stuff like that, and 776 00:43:53,636 --> 00:43:56,276 Speaker 1: kind of co signs it. But you know, I almost 777 00:43:56,396 --> 00:43:58,476 Speaker 1: assume it was over. And I heard about the go 778 00:43:58,556 --> 00:44:00,876 Speaker 1: fund me, I was intrigued to see where it was 779 00:44:00,916 --> 00:44:03,916 Speaker 1: at and when I saw the level, it was a 780 00:44:03,956 --> 00:44:10,876 Speaker 1: no brainer to finish it off, and the the